S10.E08: The Lie Of The Land

[Avon.Blakes7]

It's quite easy 

8 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

Weird. How can you like and not-like a show all at the same time? Weird. Really GREAT Character actors. Great. The chemistry between these three is phenomenal. But the plot. Oh sweet Jesus the plot. I was hoping this was a doctor-induced simulation and not real life. THAT would've been a really great ending. But "It was real but you were brainwashed and now you forgot?" Seriously? AGAIN???? Damn, the people of Earth have had their brains messed with so many times, I'm surprised we don't ALL have some kinda brain dysfunction!

That ending though. Sucked like a Big Black Hole.

And I still don't get the point of the "Bill Fake-out." WHY DID HE DO THAT???? Seriously. All he had to do was show up at her home and have this conversation and....*shrug*....ah well. It is what it is, and what it is, is mostly confusing and a dumb waste of plotline.

The Bill/Nardole/Doctor parts I give 8/10. The rest? 3/10. It was just so stupidly unnecessary.

It's quite easy to have a "love/hate" relationship with a show that's gone from what was considered a kid's show in the 60's to a reboot going against all kinds of "canon!" There were 2 feature films with Peter Cushing back in the 70's, a continuation of the British run through several Doctors; some more successful in the role than others, went on hiatus, Fox producing a movie 10 years later, now the current re-boot 10 more years after that! Not sure I've seen any program go through so many incarnations; sorta like the Doctor himself! 

[hnygrl]

1 minute ago, KirkB said:

No, I think it was an audience fake-out. That was for out benefit

And I hated it. It was a waste of time, space, and a plotline. I still would've forgiven everything if this had been a simulation. It's the fact that somebody took over the earth (again) (per usual), and everybody "forgot" (again). Damn show runners. New ideas. Please. NEW IDEAS.

Confidentially? I don't hold out much hope that the show will be any better/different under a new showrunner.

[Casual Viewing]

I guess I'm a different breed of Doctors Who fan than most on fan forums. I've seen all of Who since the 3rd Doctor as well as seeing some of the 1st and 2nd and I love the series  warts and all.  I don't expect the show to be logical, nor do I anaylize every detail, as long as I'm entertained by it and enjoy the performances, I'm happy.  In an entertainment world saturated with comic book superheros I'm just thankful I have Doctor Who to watch. 

 I really liked this episode. For me it was suspenseful and the ending moved me. I especially love Nardole and Bill as the Doctor's companions.  Doctor Who has only failed for me when I really dislike the companions (Rose with Ten, Clara, Mel). 

[benteen]

4 hours ago, SoothingDave said:

Why didn't Bill ask Nardole where the Tardis is?  Wouldn't have made more sense (to her) to take the Tardis out to rescue the Doctor?

Speaking of the Tardis, this is only the ninth Doctor Who story not to feature the Tardis at all and only the second NuWho story (the first being Midnight).

[smorbie]

7 hours ago, smorbie said:

Finally my favorite Bill line: "Why do you have a woman locked in a vault? Because even I think that’s weird – and I’ve been attacked by a puddle.”  True Bill, very true

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Casual Viewing said:

I don't expect the show to be logical, nor do I anaylize every detail, as long as I'm entertained by it and enjoy the performances, I'm happy.

I am with you on that. I need this to be entertaining, not logical. It's when I don't find it entertaining enough that all the logic flaws come out. As much as I'm complaining about some of the logic issues and I do feel the storyline was jumbled (they could have had three separate stories here instead of one big convoluted one), I still enjoy watching the show and I still get excited and turn out all the lights and curl up on the couch to watch and it's been a LONG time since the show made me feel this way. So I will happily roll my eyes at all the ridiculous blunders so I can spend time with Twelve, Bill and Nardole each week.

 

1 hour ago, Avon.Blakes7 said:

I was hoping this was a doctor-induced simulation and not real life.

I think the simulation would have been more interesting.

I think the biggest blunder they did these three eps was the regeneration fake out. I hate when they do something like that for the audience without it making any sense at all in the story. I mean, there was just absolutely no reason, in story, or any fanwanking jumps of logic that would make that make sense. If the guys with guns hadn't been on his side, I could say he did it for them, if Bill actually knew about regeneration, well, I'd say he was a sadistic asshole for putting her through that, but who, other than the viewers at home, was that meant for? It is the really big blunders like that that take me out of the story, because they pulled me out of the story.

[cardigirl]

Okay, I'll have to rewatch the three parts, but I did not enjoy this story much.  I love Bill and Nardole, and I really really enjoyed the first episode of this season, but since then, I'm usually lost.  This 3-parter made no sense to me whatsoever.  I usually enjoy Missy too, but nope not this time. 

Very disjointed to me. 

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, Casual Viewing said:

I guess I'm a different breed of Doctors Who fan than most on fan forums. I've seen all of Who since the 3rd Doctor as well as seeing some of the 1st and 2nd and I love the series  warts and all.  I don't expect the show to be logical, nor do I anaylize every detail, as long as I'm entertained by it and enjoy the performances, I'm happy.  In an entertainment world saturated with comic book superheros I'm just thankful I have Doctor Who to watch. 

 I really liked this episode. For me it was suspenseful and the ending moved me. I especially love Nardole and Bill as the Doctor's companions.  Doctor Who has only failed for me when I really dislike the companions (Rose with Ten, Clara, Mel). 

Eh, I've been a fan of Doctor Who since 4-year-old me watched Tom Baker fall off a radio tower and turn into Peter Davison in 1981. I've seen every episode of the show available to view (except for a few last season when I gave up in despair) and quite a few that no longer exist thanks to the magic of fan-made recons and surviving audio tracks. I know all about the ups and downs this show can go through, and will always love it. But there are nonetheless certain episodes and eras that just don't work for me. I love most of the First Doctor era, for instance, but loathe the serial called The Celestial Toymaker (interminable, so very interminable. And stupid). The Seventh Doctor era is the Doctor Who of my childhood, the era I remember best from watching as a child, and I will always regard it through rose-tinted spectacles as a result...but I really hate the serial called The Happiness Patrol (shudder). And so it is with Modern Who - there are misses as well as hits, and unfortunately, for me, Moffat's era as showrunner has delivered more misses than hits, this three-parter included. I don't need the show to be perfect, but I do need it to hit the right notes, I find. I know I can be very critical of the show, especially of late, but that isn't my default - the first five episodes of this season certainly had their flaws, you don't have to apply more than two minutes of critical thinking to see that, but I loved them nonetheless because they managed to hit all the right notes. This episode, this entire three-parter, for me, failed to hit the right notes. It placed its emphasis in all the wrong places. It failed to sell its worldbuilding, failed to deliver any engaging incidental characters, and it failed to develop its monster.

I agree about the show failing most when I dislike the companion - I couldn't even watch the show toward the end of Clara's run, I'd come to dislike her so very intensely. I can't watch the actress in anything else now, I've never disliked a character in this show so very much. This season, I don't really like Nardole, although he's growing on me slightly (there's just nothing to him as a character, he's designed as comic relief and exposition, rather than as a person) but I love Bill, and I love her relationship with the Doctor, and they were the reason I enjoyed the early episodes of the season so very much. But they weren't enough to save this three-parter. I guess loving the characters isn't enough for me after all. I need the story to hold together enough to not destroy my suspension of disbelief, as well.

[Avon.Blakes7]

39 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Eh, I've been a fan of Doctor Who since 4-year-old me watched Tom Baker fall off a radio tower and turn into Peter Davison in 1981. I've seen every episode of the show available to view (except for a few last season when I gave up in despair) and quite a few that no longer exist thanks to the magic of fan-made recons and surviving audio tracks. I know all about the ups and downs this show can go through, and will always love it. But there are nonetheless certain episodes and eras that just don't work for me. I love most of the First Doctor era, for instance, but loathe the serial called The Celestial Toymaker (interminable, so very interminable. And stupid). The Seventh Doctor era is the Doctor Who of my childhood, the era I remember best from watching as a child, and I will always regard it through rose-tinted spectacles as a result...but I really hate the serial called The Happiness Patrol (shudder). And so it is with Modern Who - there are misses as well as hits, and unfortunately, for me, Moffat's era as showrunner has delivered more misses than hits, this three-parter included. I don't need the show to be perfect, but I do need it to hit the right notes, I find. I know I can be very critical of the show, especially of late, but that isn't my default - the first five episodes of this season certainly had their flaws, you don't have to apply more than two minutes of critical thinking to see that, but I loved them nonetheless because they managed to hit all the right notes. This episode, this entire three-parter, for me, failed to hit the right notes. It placed its emphasis in all the wrong places. It failed to sell its worldbuilding, failed to deliver any engaging incidental characters, and it failed to develop its monster.

I agree about the show failing most when I dislike the companion - I couldn't even watch the show toward the end of Clara's run, I'd come to dislike her so very intensely. I can't watch the actress in anything else now, I've never disliked a character in this show so very much. This season, I don't really like Nardole, although he's growing on me slightly (there's just nothing to him as a character, he's designed as comic relief and exposition, rather than as a person) but I love Bill, and I love her relationship with the Doctor, and they were the reason I enjoyed the early episodes of the season so very much. But they weren't enough to save this three-parter. I guess loving the characters isn't enough for me after all. I need the story to hold together enough to not destroy my suspension of disbelief, as well.

The companion situation is what's been the drawback since the beginning with ROSE when I started watching the re-boot! His affection for her was nauseating from 9 & 10, then worse with Clara from 10 and increasing in his passion with 11! The Doctor is willing to overlook every moral code he has to keep her safe or save her life! Past Doctors could very well walk away from impeding doom of a volcano which he knows will wipe out a family he's met! It's one thing to change history, but for Clara he's willing to put the whole universe and time in jeopardy! He legitimately went insane traveling around for too long on his own; goes overboard with the companions that interest him in the least! With Bill, she's probably even more useless than past companions, willing to give us all up to oblivion to save the Doctor! Call me a cold fish, but one life ain't worth all that; even the Doctor's! ;-(

Edited June 5, 2017 by Avon.Blakes7

[smorbie]

2 hours ago, cardigirl said:

 I usually enjoy Missy too, but nope not this time. 

I like Missy; I just do.  I hated the Master, but something about Missy is just fun.  Maybe because her insanity is so over the top, or because she made me laugh by turning Clara into a Dalek.  I dunknow.  But, I do like her.

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

even watch the show toward the end of Clara's run, I'

I agree.  She was just unwatchable.

[Mabinogia]

31 minutes ago, smorbie said:

because she made me laugh by turning Clara into a Dalek

For me that bought her my undying love. Missy is my personal hero! haha

I find Missy fun. She's a villain, so yeah, she killed lots of people. If she were a real human she'd be up there with Hitler, but for entertainment, I adore her. I love the whole deranged Mary Poppins thing she's got going. I like her dynamic with Twelve. There is good friends chemistry there. I feel like these are two people who have known each other for centuries and been through a lot of crap together and are two of the very few left of their race.

I didn't know Nardole before this season, missed whenever he was on before (there were a few seasons I skilled for character/actor reasons) and was worried based on things I'd read about him but I enjoy him. I like that twice now the show has had him and Bill working together without the Doctor. They play well off each other, and he and twelve also play well off each other. Bill and Twelve are great together. They have a perfect mentor mentee relationship.

because of these relationships, these character interactions, I can overlook how crap the storyline was, and it was pretty crappy. (but nowhere near as bad as Class!)

[Avon.Blakes7]

2 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

For me that bought her my undying love. Missy is my personal hero! haha

I find Missy fun. She's a villain, so yeah, she killed lots of people. If she were a real human she'd be up there with Hitler, but for entertainment, I adore her. I love the whole deranged Mary Poppins thing she's got going. I like her dynamic with Twelve. There is good friends chemistry there. I feel like these are two people who have known each other for centuries and been through a lot of crap together and are two of the very few left of their race.

I didn't know Nardole before this season, missed whenever he was on before (there were a few seasons I skilled for character/actor reasons) and was worried based on things I'd read about him but I enjoy him. I like that twice now the show has had him and Bill working together without the Doctor. They play well off each other, and he and twelve also play well off each other. Bill and Twelve are great together. They have a perfect mentor mentee relationship.

because of these relationships, these character interactions, I can overlook how crap the storyline was, and it was pretty crappy. (but nowhere near as bad as Class!)

Wasn't Nardole some kind of servant/companion to River; looking for the Doctor who was right in front of her? She was supposedly married to some headless character! That was probably the only time she had no control over a situation and he loved seeing her stressed and manic not being in charge and knowing more for that one occasion! ;-)

[LoneHaranguer]

2 hours ago, Avon.Blakes7 said:

The companion situation is what's been the drawback since the beginning with ROSE when I started watching the re-boot! His affection for her was nauseating from 9 & 10, then worse with Clara from 10 and increasing in his passion with 11!

It is not uncommon in fiction for a wounded soldier to fall for his nurse; for the Doctor coming off the Time War, Rose was that nurse. 

2 hours ago, Avon.Blakes7 said:

With Bill, she's probably even more useless than past companions, willing to give us all up to oblivion to save the Doctor! Call me a cold fish, but one life ain't worth all that; even the Doctor's! ;-(

But, she did that out of faith in the Doctor. He's always been a sucker for people looking up to him. As suggested by Sarah Jane, he doesn't so much like traveling with companions as an entourage.

[Avon.Blakes7]

1 minute ago, LoneHaranguer said:

It is not uncommon in fiction for a wounded soldier to fall for his nurse; for the Doctor coming off the Time War, Rose was that nurse. 

But, she did that out of faith in the Doctor. He's always been a sucker for people looking up to him. As suggested by Sarah Jane, he doesn't so much like traveling with companions as an entourage.

But these companions always seem to cause death and destruction! "Dalek" comes to mind with Rose having compassion for a machine, touching it and causing an entire underground base to be decimated! Amy and Clara just as bad! Bill's incessant questions is what's driving me bonkers more than anything! It never seems to stop, even under gunfire! ;-(

[Mabinogia]

4 minutes ago, Avon.Blakes7 said:

Wasn't Nardole some kind of servant/companion to River; looking for the Doctor who was right in front of her?

Ah, so that is where he's from. I kept seeing people around the board referring to him having been around before but I couldn't place him at all. Figured he must have been from the Eleven/Clara era, which I did not watch pretty much at all. I am enjoying him. He's a funny little fellow.

6 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

It is not uncommon in fiction for a wounded soldier to fall for his nurse; for the Doctor coming off the Time War, Rose was that nurse. 

I had never actually thought of it that way. It does make some sense. I just wish Rose had been a character I liked more.

9 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

But, she did that out of faith in the Doctor.

Yes. I saw her as afraid, and desperate, and she felt that if the Doctor survived then humanity would be safe, but if he died, they were all screwed. I don't think it was purely "I have to save my friend the Doctor" so much as "I have to save the only person who can save us all". I like that, after the fact, when the immediate danger was gone, she realized she shouldn't have done it.

[Avon.Blakes7]

6 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Ah, so that is where he's from. I kept seeing people around the board referring to him having been around before but I couldn't place him at all. Figured he must have been from the Eleven/Clara era, which I did not watch pretty much at all. I am enjoying him. He's a funny little fellow.

I had never actually thought of it that way. It does make some sense. I just wish Rose had been a character I liked more.

Yes. I saw her as afraid, and desperate, and she felt that if the Doctor survived then humanity would be safe, but if he died, they were all screwed. I don't think it was purely "I have to save my friend the Doctor" so much as "I have to save the only person who can save us all". I like that, after the fact, when the immediate danger was gone, she realized she shouldn't have done it.

I wish I could be more helpful, but I don't watch NuWho like Classic Who over and over! Not even a fan of Troughton or C. Baker, but I'd rather watch "The Two Doctors" from 30 years ago! There's been a handful worth watching multiple times like "The Girl Who Waited" or "Vincent & The Doctor" though! I still watch the episode when taping to VHS format, but they're then stored away in my collection never to be brought out again! I'd rather drag out an even older series; "Blake's 7!' ;-)

[AudienceofOne]

The full uncut Curse of Fenric is one of the best episodes of TV ever made and that was Doctor Who and the seventh doctor. I enjoyed most of Third and Fifth's stories. I can count the number of Nu Who episodes I rewatch on one hand. Two tops.

[call me ishmael]

I have to say this did nothing for me (and i started back in the Baker years).  I'm willing to have some plotholes and some let's wave things away if the basic core of the story is worth it and makes sense but this is just a repeat of the Silence with the monks and even the intercut alternative viewing (then the Silence in the moon walk, here her "mother" in the truth, etc.. And then you have the fact that if Bill is removed from the transmitters then people will break free from the control.  Last time i checked the TARDIS was not exactly in this dimension so why not put her in there to break the connection and have them lose their anchor?  

Oh and there is Bill holding on to the truth when the world has fallen under the sway of a dictator.  Where have i seen that before...hmmm...oh Right, Martha walking around the world telling the story of the Doctor.  At least they let Bill stay home.

if Moffat is going to repeat his stories at least he could work out the kinks.

[Locutus]

19 hours ago, Llywela said:

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by Locutus

[Snookums]

Quote

One of the problems with the episodes is that the villains are so under developed, I have no idea what they wanted from the human race. What exactly do they need the human race/Earth for?

I don't usually post on this board but this was driving me CRAZY. Moffat had a golden theme here and he just left it on the table!

Three episodes with these damn villains, and there is not one clue as to why they do what they do! Considering how advanced they are and how long they spend studying the planets/races they conquer, this is clearly, to put it in the mildest possible terms, really damn important to them. Their entire civilization, way of being, self-awareness and reason for living is built around this particular brand of conquesting. But why?

They aren't here for any physical goods or supplies like our water or our minerals. They aren't here to eat us. They aren't here to to trade us on some intergalactic stock exchange. They aren't here to enslave us for anything beyond the bare fact of the act of enslavement itself. They don't gain prestige, that we can see, even from others of their own kind, like some kind of running tally in the Planets Forced To Love Us Olympics. 

They aren't here for sexual satisfaction (their version of our appearance is that of a rotting corpse and that doesn't appear to push their buttons.)  They aren't here to breed with us to save their race. They aren't here to punish us for all our horrible, unimaginable, unforgivable fuckups. They aren't here to forgive us for them, either, if it comes to that. They aren't here to start or spread any kind of religion focused on any higher being or belief. They aren't here to change our history beyond insisting that they've always been a part of it.

The only thing they seem to desire is to be worshiped, to be loved. The only thing they appear to value in the slightest is the "purity" of the connection with whoever "asks" them to stay, but even that isn't love for them; it was Bill's love of and belief in the Doctor that rendered her into the perfect conduit. The only thing they broadcast is this bizarre insistence that they've always been by humanity's side guiding them with tenderness or whatever cat vomit/propaganda they were spewing out--but even that is ridiculously unclear. WHY IS THIS SO IMPORTANT? There has to be some reason this group of beings goes to an unimaginable amount of time and trouble to achieve this goal. Even if it's a reason humans/viewers would find ridiculous or petty or laughable it would work as long as it was central to the Monks' need for meaning. 

And the thing is, if their goal is simply worship, simply to be loved (as they define it), well, hell, being around The Doctor should drive them fucking binky-bonkers, because he has, effortlessly, what they have spent an eternity trying to achieve--love. There is no person or thing, no race or demigod, who has met the Doctor and walked away unchanged. Everything and everyone he touches, he affects, permanently. He is adored and feared and raged against at a level that  the Monks cannot even dream of reaching and all he ever does to win this universe worth's of emotion and attention is just tootle around being himself. 

The Doctor should be the equivalent of the Big Bang marrying a Black Hole and going on a six month tear through Las Vegas in terms of how much he should have been affecting the Monks. But beyond making him recite agitprop they don't seem to care about him one bit, even when he called out their whole VR shenanigans routine. Moffat wrote an entire trilogy about a race whose only apparent goal is to be revered and they can't even recognize their own greatest desire when he's standing right in front of them.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Snookums

[Eliza422]

1 hour ago, Snookums said:

I don't usually post on this board but this was driving me CRAZY. Moffat had a golden theme here and he just left it on the table!

Three episodes with these damn villains, and there is not one clue as to why they do what they do! Considering how advanced they are and how long they spend studying the planets/races they conquer, this is clearly, to put it in the mildest possible terms, really damn important to them. Their entire civilization, way of being, self-awareness and reason for living is built around this particular brand of conquesting. But why?

They aren't here for any physical goods or supplies like our water or our minerals. They aren't here to eat us. They aren't here to to trade us on some intergalactic stock exchange. They aren't here to enslave us for anything beyond the bare fact of the act of enslavement itself. They don't gain prestige, that we can see, even from others of their own kind, like some kind of running tally in the Planets Forced To Love Us Olympics. 

They aren't here for sexual satisfaction (their version of our appearance is that of a rotting corpse and that doesn't appear to push their buttons.)  They aren't here to breed with us to save their race. They aren't here to punish us for all our horrible, unimaginable, unforgivable fuckups. They aren't here to forgive us for them, either, if it comes to that. They aren't here to start or spread any kind of religion focused on any higher being or belief. They aren't here to change our history beyond insisting that they've always been a part of it.

The only thing they seem to desire is to be worshiped, to be loved. The only thing they appear to value in the slightest is the "purity" of the connection with whoever "asks" them to stay, but even that isn't love for them; it was Bill's love of and belief in the Doctor that rendered her into the perfect conduit. The only thing they broadcast is this bizarre insistence that they've always been by humanity's side guiding them with tenderness or whatever cat vomit/propaganda they were spewing out--but even that is ridiculously unclear. WHY IS THIS SO IMPORTANT? There has to be some reason this group of beings goes to an unimaginable amount of time and trouble to achieve this goal. Even if it's a reason humans/viewers would find ridiculous or petty or laughable it would work as long as it was central to the Monks' need for meaning. 

And the thing is, if their goal is simply worship, simply to be loved (as they define it), well, hell, being around The Doctor should drive them fucking binky-bonkers, because he has, effortlessly, what they have spent an eternity trying to achieve--love. There is no person or thing, no race or demigod, who has met the Doctor and walked away unchanged. Everything and everyone he touches, he affects, permanently. He is adored and feared and raged against at a level that  the Monks cannot even dream of reaching and all he ever does to win this universe worth's of emotion and attention is just tootle around being himself. 

The Doctor should be the equivalent of the Big Bang marrying a Black Hole and going on a six month tear through Las Vegas in terms of how much he should have been affecting the Monks. But beyond making him recite agitprop they don't seem to care about him one bit, even when he called out their whole VR shenanigans routine. Moffat wrote an entire trilogy about a race whose only apparent goal is to be revered and they can't even recognize their own greatest desire when he's standing right in front of them.

Thank you for this. During the whole episode I couldn't stop asking why are these stupid aliens doing all this? They had absolutely no motivation at all - not even a good ol' desire to destroy the planet. What was there reason for being.

and there are only 12 of them? It was utter nonsense.

[Mabinogia]

What kills me is they had THREE episodes of these damn Monks to explain it to us, and they wasted all that time with side stories that kind of went nowhere. Are the Monks just bored? Are we a video game to them. Oh, that would have been pretty cool, if they didn't think of us as real and were just playing a kind of intergalactic video game. Would explain all those simulations. If you're going to spend three episodes on a villain, at least flesh them out a little. If it were a one ep villain I could excuse it with them not having time to flesh them out but they had plenty of time, the writers just didn't know why the Monks were doing any of this. It is insulting.

[darkestboy]

I thought it was decent but overall a weakish way of resolving the Monk invasion. Shades of Last Of The Time Lords and Turn Left, which felt deliberate at times.

The show needs to stop with the way it uses regeneration energy so recklessly here. We didn't need to see the Doctor go to those lengths to see if Bill had been brainwashed.

Some great emotive material for Bill in this episode but I still didn't like the imagined memories of her mother as a means of defeating the Monks.

Nardole didn't do too much but he was fine.

I don't believe for a second Missy wants to be good and neither should the Doctor, 7/10.

[Mabinogia]

48 minutes ago, darkestboy said:

I don't believe for a second Missy wants to be good and neither should the Doctor

I think it's going to play out that Missy does feel remorse for all those deaths, doesn't like it because remorse is painful, so pushes it away and goes back to her old ways. There's just no storyline in her being good. Then what? Her and the Doctor go tooling around the universe? That won't work because they will be too powerful as a team. I do get why the Doctor would want to believe her though, so I don't feel like throwing things because he wants to believe she can change.

[Llywela]

8 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I think it's going to play out that Missy does feel remorse for all those deaths, doesn't like it because remorse is painful, so pushes it away and goes back to her old ways. There's just no storyline in her being good. Then what? Her and the Doctor go tooling around the universe? That won't work because they will be too powerful as a team. I do get why the Doctor would want to believe her though, so I don't feel like throwing things because he wants to believe she can change.

See, I do, precisely because the history between them is so long and tangled, the Doctor should know better than anyone who the Master truly is and how impossible it is for this supposed change of heart to ever be real. And if they want me to buy that this supposed remorse is genuine...I don't think I ever can, I know the character and his/her history too well for that.

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

Are we a video game to them.

I would have been totally fine if their reason was petty or trivial. I've said before not everything has to be A Thing. If they're that far advanced to create those simulations it is more than reasonable that they're bored and looking for things to do. 

I always viewed the Doctor as Chaotic Good and the Master as Chaotic Evil. Or whichever terms are one shade up and down off Chaotic Neutral. You can't have Missy feeling remorse. She knew the Doctor wasn't going to kill her and she's bought herself some time. If the Doctor was serious he would have forced her to regenerate. 

[hnygrl]

3 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I think it's going to play out that Missy does feel remorse for all those deaths, doesn't like it because remorse is painful, so pushes it away and goes back to her old ways. There's just no storyline in her being good. Then what? Her and the Doctor go tooling around the universe? That won't work because they will be too powerful as a team. I do get why the Doctor would want to believe her though, so I don't feel like throwing things because he wants to believe she can change.

See, What I'm secretly hoping is that this is Missy's last regeneration. That she's got nothing left, so this would be her last last last life cycle. Thus the remorse and trying to be a better time lord. The actress has stated that this is it for her. No more Missy after this, so I'm kinda hoping (praying, please, Lord) that the Master/Missy saga ends with this season.  Don't really care how it ends, as long as it does. I'm so sick of this character. In the minority I know, but I really don't care for the Missy character. She's cruel, and I can't applaud cruelty, even in fantasy shows. It's just not cute or funny to me.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Doctor Who Takes On Fascism

The Doctor and friends address politics, and the big lie.

[ganesh]

I can't imagine they'd get rid of the character of the Master though, even if this is Missy's last go-around. We've only seen 6 Masters total, right? That doesn't mean the Master hasn't regenerated off-screen, but still. The Doctor doesn't really have much of a foil otherwise. 

[Lantern7]

2 hours ago, hnygrl said:

See, What I'm secretly hoping is that this is Missy's last regeneration. That she's got nothing left, so this would be her last last last life cycle. Thus the remorse and trying to be a better time lord. The actress has stated that this is it for her. No more Missy after this, so I'm kinda hoping (praying, please, Lord) that the Master/Missy saga ends with this season.  Don't really care how it ends, as long as it does. I'm so sick of this character. In the minority I know, but I really don't care for the Missy character. She's cruel, and I can't applaud cruelty, even in fantasy shows. It's just not cute or funny to me.

I think the Master was at the end of his road regeneration-wise  in "The Keeper of Traken." Then he hijacked Tremas's body. In "The Five Doctors," the Time Lords in charge offered him a new regeneration cycle in exchange for helping the Doctor(s). Between those two and the movie, I don't think the rules apply to Master/Missy. And because War Doctor and 10.5 count, the Doctor is beyond the twelve regenerations.

[ganesh]

The Doctor received a new set too on Trenzalore. Eleven was technically the last one of the first set because he was technically Twelve. But if the Master already received a new set way back, then he's not going anywhere. 

[LoneHaranguer]

4 minutes ago, ganesh said:

The Doctor received a new set too on Trenzalore. Eleven was technically the last one of the first set because he was technically Twelve.

The rule has been that you get twelve regenerations, so thirteen lives in total. Eleven was technically Thirteen because Ten was technically Eleven and Twelve (keeping the same look when he regenerated doesn't mean in didn't count).

[AudienceofOne]

1 hour ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Twelve (keeping the same look when he regenerated doesn't mean in didn't count).

God I hated that. It's good to remind ourselves that Moffatt isn't the only show runner guilty of this bullshit fakeout. 

[Chyromaniac]

My personal hope with regards to Missy is that she is both sincerely remorseful, yet still up to something.  With her character, I don't think those concepts need be mutually exclusive.

[Avon.Blakes7]

3 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

God I hated that. It's good to remind ourselves that Moffatt isn't the only show runner guilty of this bullshit fakeout. 

BTW, what happened to that 1/2 Doctor that took up with Rose in the alternate universe? I seem to remember him being more human and "could die!" Was he knocked off? All I can remember is her doing everything to get back to our universe to be back with the original in saving Donna & the Earth against Daleks and Sontarans! ;-)

Edited June 7, 2017 by Avon.Blakes7

[AudienceofOne]

2 hours ago, Avon.Blakes7 said:

BTW, what happened to that 1/2 Doctor that Rose took up with Rose in the alternate universe? I seem to remember him being more human and "could die!" Was he knocked off? All I can remember is her doing everything to get back to our universe to be back with the original in saving Donna & the Earth against Daleks and Sontarans! ;-)

He went to the alternative universe to be with Rose. She dumped him once she realised she was in love with a fantasy and had been handed a real life man instead. The divorce was amicable since he was already in an intense affair with a Sontaran. She ended up declaring celibacy and becoming the Ruler of Earth before being killed by some weirdly one-dimensional Monks who wanted to rule us for very little reason. They were defeated by a UNIT accountant who did a cost-benefit analysis of their invasion and deemed it a poor investment. 

Or it's possible I just made all that up. Except for the Rose/Doctor breakup. That shit was doomed.

[Avon.Blakes7]

33 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

He went to the alternative universe to be with Rose. She dumped him once she realised she was in love with a fantasy and had been handed a real life man instead. The divorce was amicable since he was already in an intense affair with a Sontaran. She ended up declaring celibacy and becoming the Ruler of Earth before being killed by some weirdly one-dimensional Monks who wanted to rule us for very little reason. They were defeated by a UNIT accountant who did a cost-benefit analysis of their invasion and deemed it a poor investment. 

Or it's possible I just made all that up. Except for the Rose/Doctor breakup. That shit was doomed.

You had me until "UNIT" comment! They were little more than hired goons who's expertese was heavily overrated due to assistance of the Doctor! ;-)

[AudienceofOne]

25 minutes ago, Avon.Blakes7 said:

You had me until "UNIT" comment! They were little more than hired goons who's expertese was heavily overrated due to assistance of the Doctor! ;-)

Not widely known but their accountants are totally out of this world.

[smorbie]

On 6/5/2017 at 7:18 PM, Mabinogia said:

For me that bought her my undying love. Missy is my personal hero! haha

I find Missy fun. She's a villain, so yeah, she killed lots of people. If she were a real human she'd be up there with Hitler, but for entertainment, I adore her. I love the whole deranged Mary Poppins thing she's got going. I like her dynamic with Twelve. There is good friends chemistry there. I feel like these are two people who have known each other for centuries and been through a lot of crap together and are two of the very few left of their race.

I didn't know Nardole before this season, missed whenever he was on before (there were a few seasons I skilled for character/actor reasons) and was worried based on things I'd read about him but I enjoy him. I like that twice now the show has had him and Bill working together without the Doctor. They play well off each other, and he and twelve also play well off each other. Bill and Twelve are great together. They have a perfect mentor mentee relationship.

because of these relationships, these character interactions, I can overlook how crap the storyline was, and it was pretty crappy. (but nowhere near as bad as Class!)

Ugh, haven't watched Class and have no plans to do so.

[Bruinsfan]

Missy won me over at the beginning of the 9th season when she informed Clara that she was the Doctor's best friend, and Clara was the puppy. Threatening to eat her and kicking her into the sewers didn't hurt, either.

I've really liked all the versions of the Master except the John Simm one, whom I loathed from the start. I always think of Jon Pertwee chirping "that's my best enemy" in The Five Doctors.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, smorbie said:

Ugh, haven't watched Class and have no plans to do so.

Don't do it! I was bored, nothing else was on, I watched. I have regretted it ever since. lol It's like the worst written episodes of Who only with mediocre actors.

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Missy won me over at the beginning of the 9th season when she informed Clara that she was the Doctor's best friend, and Clara was the puppy. Threatening to eat her and kicking her into the sewers didn't hurt, either.

See, it's just that take on the Doctor-Master relationship that's turning me off Missy, because no, the Master is not the Doctor's best friend - s/he might have been once, when they were very young, but that hasn't been true in literally centuries of their lives. 'Best enemy', the Third Doctor said, at a time when they were both relatively young, compared with now, at a time when he was himself trapped and bored and welcomed the diversion offered by his old classmate's interest in Earth, and before the very worst of the Master's depredations, but even then they were no longer friends, and there's been a lot of water under the bridge since then - and a hell of a lot of indiscriminate intergalactic slaughter. By the 80s the 4th-7th Doctor no longer regarded that former friend through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia and boredom, and was instead repulsed by his evil actions and intentions, even if he still couldn't bring himself to let his old enemy die. So I cannot buy this 'we're still best friends really' relationship that the show has been trying to sell with Missy, not even a tiny bit,and not even in light of the Time War. I could buy the 10th Doctor feeling conflicted over the Master's continued existence at a time when he had long believed himself the last Time Lord left standing, but actual friends? No. The Doctor has higher standards for friendship than that.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Llywela

[smorbie]

On 6/5/2017 at 7:35 PM, Mabinogia said:

Figured he must have been from the Eleven/Clara era, which I did not watch pretty much at all.

Couldn't.  Couldn't stand to.  Eleven was my favorite and she drug him down.  I've probably seen parts of all of them once, as well as parts of all her outings with Twelve.  But, I won't watch them again.  She is poison.

19 hours ago, Llywela said:

that take on the Doctor-Master relationship that's turning me off Missy, because no, the Master is not the Doctor's best friend

Yes, but Missy is, in her own words "bananas".  I'm certain she remembers their time as besties and just chooses to hand wave the rest of it.

I never liked the Master, but Missy is....charming, like a good psychopath should be.  And she's entertaining.

[Llywela]

16 minutes ago, smorbie said:

Yes, but Missy is, in her own words "bananas".  I'm certain she remembers their time as besties and just chooses to hand wave the rest of it.

I never liked the Master, but Missy is....charming, like a good psychopath should be.  And she's entertaining.

Oh, I get that Missy is nuts. But the show itself is playing the relationship as if she's right about them being friends, as if the Doctor does think of her that way, as if he's buying into her crocodile tears - encouraging all those fans who delight in what they see as romantic flirting between a mismatched couple who are soulmates really. And I know shippers are gonna ship, whatever, but it's all in the presentation - or misrepresentation - and that's the bit that sticks in my craw. Shippers might choose to interpret two characters that way, but the show doesn't have to present them that way, and to me what I'm seeing on-screen is a fundamental misrepresentation of the Doctor's relationship with the Master.

[smorbie]

Really?  I don't see it that way at all.  I didn't know anyone was shipping them, and if they are, eww.

And I don't see the show selling that, either.  I just see see two old souls who for a long time believed they were the last two of their planet.  They've been together friend and foe for a long, long, long time.  I see them as almost like brothers.

[Mabinogia]

19 minutes ago, smorbie said:

I see them as almost like brothers.

This is exactly how I see them. The Doctor and the Master have been through a LOT together, sometimes they hate each other, sometimes they fight, sometimes they feel like the other is the only one in the universe who can understand what they've been through and who they are. It's not besties in the sense of braiding each others hair or popping off to get a pint but best friends in that they are the one who understands the other the best. It might be a toxic friendship but that doesn't mean they don't see each other as friends.

IDK I've never shipped them but I have always, in few Masters that I have seen (never watched pre Nine Who), felt that they had a very deep, strong tie to one another for better or worse, and if Missy chooses to call that friendship and the Doctor does not argue that point, then so be it. I think both must live very lonely live. Sure the Doctor takes on companions but after a few short years (which probably seem like little more than weeks to him given his life span) they leave and they will always die long before him. His one constant has been the Master. And the Tardis, and I would ship the Doctor with the Tardis before the Master. lol I did love Idris.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Mabinogia

[Llywela]

No, I don't see them as almost like brothers, and I don't see the Doctor considering the Master a friend of any kind. When someone has committed genocide on a vast galactic scale, has murdered indiscriminately for centuries, you don't consider them a friend any more. The show definitely is selling the relationship as a friendship, though, and that's what I disagree with. But, I guess this is getting circular now and we should agree to disagree and move on.

[benteen]

20 hours ago, Llywela said:

See, it's just that take on the Doctor-Master relationship that's turning me off Missy, because no, the Master is not the Doctor's best friend - s/he might have been once, when they were very young, but that hasn't been true in literally centuries of their lives. 'Best enemy', the Third Doctor said, at a time when they were both relatively young, compared with now, at a time when he was himself trapped and bored and welcomed the diversion offered by his old classmate's interest in Earth, and before the very worst of the Master's depredations, but even then they were no longer friends, and there's been a lot of water under the bridge since then - and a hell of a lot of indiscriminate intergalactic slaughter. By the 80s the 4th-7th Doctor no longer regarded that former friend through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia and boredom, and was instead repulsed by his evil actions and intentions, even if he still couldn't bring himself to let his old enemy die. So I cannot buy this 'we're still best friends really' relationship that the show has been trying to sell with Missy, not even a tiny bit,and not even in light of the Time War. I could buy the 10th Doctor feeling conflicted over the Master's continued existence at a time when he had long believed himself the last Time Lord left standing, but actual friends? No. The Doctor has higher standards for friendship than that.

It was very hard to hate Roger Delgado's Master, who was just so damn good in the role.  I can understand why the Doctor didn't hate that Master as much.

Agreed that the Master or Missy is not the Doctor's best friend.  I always thought Jaime or Sarah Jane filled that role better when they were around him.  Donna too.

[tennisgurl]

...where the hell is that gif of Crusty the Clown doing "What the hell was that?" on stage? I think that is very much needed at the end of this three episode arc. I mean, I didn't dislike ALL of it, like I have in some past seasons of Who, because I still like the characters and the acting was excellent, and there were some cool ideas here, but the actual plot of the episode was just soooooo lame. So lame. I have no idea what the plot was, the resolution made basically no sense, and it was all so painfully rushed, after being built up for three whole episode. So, the Monks took over the Earth and rewrote history to make them humanities savior because...reasons? The Doctor rewrites reality or history or whatever because one of the Monks is hooked up to the Matrix or something? The evil oppressors just ride off in their stupid pyramid the second people realize what dicks they are? If anything, this episode shows that evil oppressors are totally easy to defeat! You just need to think happy thoughts, and they will just go away! Man, all those people throughout history suffering under oppressive regimes must feel SO STUPID right now!

Seriously, this whole plot was a decent idea, but, in true Moffat fashion, it fell apart upon execution and just turns into the Power of Love* randomly saving the day with no lead up whatsoever. And I still have zero idea what the motives of the Monks were, or what their history actually was. How can we have three freaking episodes with these weirdoes, and we still don't know jack and shit about them? Why bother so much to get Earth? They don't seem to be getting anything from us. No resources, no money, no labor, no power, nothing. They just want to rule us because they're Bad Guys, and that's what Bad Guys do. Haven't we established that there are billions of populated worlds out there? Why is Earth so special? What was their plan? We have no idea, and now we probably never will. Losers.

Also, for all the episode railed against Fake News and Tyranny, didn't they basically use a fake image of Bills mom to fight against the Monks. So, fight Fake New with MORE Fake News? Not sure that's what you were going for there, show.

However, this episode did do a pretty good job at redeeming Bills awful choice from last time, showing remorse for what she did, working to fix what she did, and being willing to sacrifice her life to save humanity. Its good to like Bill again. I also like her friendship with Nardole, even if the guy is suck playing the alien robot Basil Exposition role as well as comic relief. They're hug when she was about to sacrifice herself was honestly super sweet. So, I thought the character stuff was good, but the plot was an utter mess and a huge waste of time. This show should just focus on having more minor adventures like what we saw in the start of the season, and save the Earth in Peril stuff for season finales.

*I'm honestly not against this kind of Power of Love ending. It can be really powerful if done right, but it needs to have some lead up, with how it works, or how it fits into the stories themes or a character arc. None of that was built up here. At all.

Edited June 8, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Mabinogia]

42 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I'm honestly not against this kind of Power of Love ending. It can be really powerful if done right, but it needs to have some lead up, with how it works, or how it fits into the stories themes or a character arc. None of that was built up here. At all.

I'm guessing they were trying to tie it into the Monks harping on about needing to be loved? And so it was Bill's more powerful love for her mother that broke the connection? IDK, since they didn't bother to make any of it clear I have to do a lot of jumping to conclusions, which has been great for my waistband. The amount of jumping this show requires is quite the workout. But then never really got into why the Monks would want to be loved by people they basically enslaved, so it was a lost point for me.