Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Smad]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

Has nothing to do with Cersei, directly, but with what he perceives is what she is carrying; Jaime's child, and the possible end of his house.

But that is still stupid. Incest baby, with a 50/50 chance of either being another Joffrey or another Marcella/Tommen. Other leaks suggested that it will come out that Cersei wasn't even pregnant and at least Jamie will know that. And more importantly, HE is still alive. Tyrion can still get a wife and have kids. Not to mention that all these Houses have way more relatives than they show in the show. There is always some cousin, second cousin or whatever lurking about. So his House doesn't end with Cersei/Jamie and their kid dead.

[Raachel2008]

7 hours ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

I really don't want to talk about real world politics here, but is it really all that different from the allied group throwing bombs on Nazi Germany or even worse, the atomic bomb on Hiroshima? Civilians died there, too, including innocent children. Sometimes there is a grey area, and judging from the spoilers they do manage to portray it.

There is NOTHING grey about throwing bombs over civillians. It was wrong when the Nazis bombed London, it was wrong when the Allies bombed Dresden and it was wrong when the US bombed Hiroshima AND Nagasaki. 

It is, I agree, the nature of war, but it doesn't mean it is less wrong. 

What I think people are not getting here is that all those people - Tyrion, Varys, Jon, the Unsullied, the North (even Sansa, to a point) joined Dany because she was different and wanted to break the wheel. If she does more of the same, and based on anger, rather than in tatics, don't you think her allies may see her different.

Also I want to point one thing that people keep repeating and just drives me mad. Cersei is not mad. Cersei is evil. These are two very different things. It is like calling Hitler mad when he was evil.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Raachel2008

[SeanC]

The one thing I do find odd about the general summary of the leaks we've gotten is that there seems to be a serious imbalance between what's described and what we know as to the length of the two remaining episodes, because basically everything they list would seem to happen in 805, the big "battle of King's Landing" episode.  There's hardly anything that would logically go after that apart from the epilogue.

[FemmyV]

10 hours ago, aprilbabe said:

Seems like it. I wonder is Friki will continue to stand by his Tyrion trial

I've been staying the hell away from spoilers for months and ya know, just from what the TV is showing me, it  makes a whole lot more sense if it's Cersei who's put on trial.

Reasons:

1. I don't think Maggie's prophecy about Little Bro made it into the script.

2. Arya had her big kill, so it's doubtful she'll get two.

3. Tyrion doesn't seem to be jealous of Jon and Dany, so that motive doesn't look like a thing.

4. I'm very curious to see where his reunion with Sansa goes. If they end up in bed, no way does he betray her, having finally found the acceptance he craves. If they go to bed and it goes well, I say the trial is Cersei's.

Edited May 6, 2019 by FemmyV

[Constantinople]

It's a good thing GoT made D&D rich because if half of these spoilers are true, no one will ever want to watch their work again

[Eyes High]

So Tyrion hasn’t been with a woman for years...?

[ShellsandCheese]

Jon Snow really knows nothing. Dany totally called it bless her heart. She should have listened to Oleana and Yara from the start. She’d probably still have three dragons, Jorah, and her bestie. 

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah, those leaks (not the last one) are legit. Everything was setup tonight including Jon going back North. Although I don't think it's to take the Black but, to go be with the Free Folk.

[Oscirus]

If that last spoiler is true they gonna have a helluva lot of ground to make up between  Tyrion being loyal to Dany and this being a frame job

[Umbelina]

Bronn easily explains what I was trying to say in one scene.

He's no worse than the so called "nobles" and in many ways, he's better, at least he "got his own" instead of just inheriting it from grand daddy's grand dad.

[SeanC]

Jaime going back to Cersei may be the single most unconvincing character beat of the entire series, and that's saying something.

[Stallion12]

8 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Yeah, those leaks (not the last one) are legit. Everything was setup tonight including Jon going back North. Although I don't think it's to take the Black but, to go be with the Free Folk.

It does seem to be heading that way.

[Eyes High]

13 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

If that last spoiler is true they gonna have a helluva lot of ground to make up between  Tyrion being loyal to Dany and this being a frame job

There’s no Tyrion trial. He’s this beacon of goodness who strikes up casual conversations with an omniscient seer and maintains a touching faith in his sister’s capacity for redemption. And we have another mysterious reference to his celibacy, which at this point can only mean it has endgame relevance.

If I didn’t think Tyrion and Sansa were ending up together before, I sure do now. Sansa was visibly annoyed when Dany called Tyrion clever. Tyrion told Jaime he hasn’t been with a woman in years. They called each other by their first names without titles for the first time in a very long time. Sansa told Tyrion Jon’s secret five minutes after Jon swore her to secrecy. Sansa had a nice moment of closure with Sandor, who seems determined to die in KL for...reasons, I guess. And all the other ships have been sunk apart from Sam/Gilly.

That Kit/Kristofer scene shot in Randalstown Forest must be from 8x06. I guess Jon meets up with the wildlings once he peaces out. Tormund’s last line to Jon in this episode made me think so, too.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Eyes High

[Stallion12]

10 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

If that last spoiler is true they gonna have a helluva lot of ground to make up between  Tyrion being loyal to Dany and this being a frame job

Unless it's varys. 

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

But that is still stupid. Incest baby, with a 50/50 chance of either being another Joffrey or another Marcella/Tommen. Other leaks suggested that it will come out that Cersei wasn't even pregnant and at least Jamie will know that. And more importantly, HE is still alive. Tyrion can still get a wife and have kids. Not to mention that all these Houses have way more relatives than they show in the show. There is always some cousin, second cousin or whatever lurking about. So his House doesn't end with Cersei/Jamie and their kid dead.

It's not stupid to Tyrion, and Me and others point blank stated along with Sansa that he got played. He chose to believe her, and now she's claiming she's prego with Euron's child.

It not about Tyrion, it's still his belief it's Jaime's kid, nothing to do with Cersei except for the reason she's baking the bun.

ETA : It's the end of Tywin's line, that's the crux.

Edited May 6, 2019 by GrailKing

[Oscirus]

8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

If I didn’t think Tyrion and Sansa were ending up together before, I sure do now. Sansa was visibly annoyed when Dany called Tyrion clever. Tyrion told Jaime he hasn’t been with a woman in years. They called each other by their first names without titles for the first time in a very long time. Sansa told Tyrion Jon’s secret five minutes after Jon swore her to secrecy. Sansa had a nice moment of closure with Sandor, who seems determined to die in KL for...reasons, I guess. And all the other ships have been sunk apart from Sam/Gilly.

Who's watching Winterfell if Sansa winds up with Tyrion? Arya's long gone and has already proven that she won't be tied down and there must always be a stark in winterfell

[Morrigan2575]

11 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

If I didn’t think Tyrion and Sansa were ending up together before, I sure do now. Sansa was visibly annoyed when Dany called Tyrion clever. Tyrion told Jaime he hasn’t been with a woman in years. They called each other by their first names without titles for the first time in a very long time. Sansa told Tyrion Jon’s secret five minutes after Jon swore her to secrecy. Sansa had a nice moment of closure with Sandor, who seems determined to die in KL for...reasons, I guess. And all the other ships have been sunk apart from Sam/Gilly.

I'm not there. I still think Sansa ends up in a Queen Elizabeth I situation, the "virgin" queen, married to the North. 

Sadly my dream of having all the Sticks together again is fading. I think Sansa ends up alone in Winterfell, Jon goes North to the Free Folks, Arya goes wondering and, I'm not sure on Bran. I don't see a setup for Bran as leader of some counsel. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Now we know that missandei gets caught, but how? Does she fall overboard or something?

She's in a skiff , they surround her and pull her up, that's not hard to believe.

[Umbelina]

Arya is obviously heading to King's Landing to check the first person on her list OFF, and kill Cersei. 

It appears the Hound still feels he needs to kill his brother, also in Kings Landing.

Neither expect to return.

[chrisvee]

23 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Jaime going back to Cersei may be the single most unconvincing character beat of the entire series, and that's saying something.

What I took from it was that Jaime loathes himself and he’s going back to fight Cersei which he believes will cost him his life. He’s basically doing a Theon.

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

She's in a skiff , they surround her and pull her up, that's not hard to believe.

I know that now. That question was prior to watching this episode

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm not sure on Bran. I don't see a setup for Bran as leader of some counsel. 

He can stay in Winterfell with Sansa, she take care of him.

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

I know that now. That question was prior to watching this episode

Ah, I assumed you watched, sorry.

[Raachel2008]

Jon is totally going to be with the Free Folk, I called it.

I kinda of see why Jamie would want to tie things up with Cersei, ie, defeat her by entering KL, then killing, and all that. But I cannot see Jamie betraying Tyrion AND Brienne again, if it makes sense.

I don't buy for one fucking second this whole "Cersei frames Dany".

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

What I took from it was that Jaime loathes himself and he’s going back to fight Cersei which he believes will cost him his life. He’s basically doing a Theon.

That was my take away as well

[chrisvee]

1 minute ago, Raachel2008 said:

Jon is totally going to be with the Free Folk, I called it.

I kinda of see why Jamie would want to tie things up with Cersei, ie, defeat her by entering KL, then killing, and all that. But I cannot see Jamie betraying Tyrion AND Brienne again, if it makes sense.

I don't buy for one fucking second this whole "Cersei frames Dany".

And Ghost don’t forget Ghost.

[Neurochick]

I have a feeling Cersei will be killed in the next episode, because the episode before the last one seems to be the punch in the gut one.  

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

He can stay in Winterfell with Sansa, she take care of him.

I agree, just unsure give the leak. So yeah, the setup for Bran is that he just chills somewhere. I'm having a hard time with Bran in KL working with Tyrion. 

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

And Ghost don’t forget Ghost.

Ghost looked devastated.     :  (

[ShellsandCheese]

15 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Who's watching Winterfell if Sansa winds up with Tyrion? Arya's long gone and has already proven that she won't be tied down and there must always be a stark in winterfell

Tyrion is still a Lannister. I don’t see Sansa settling down with him and living happily ever after. Her beloved North wouldn’t stand for it. You think the Tully’s would be okay with it? Or the Vale? Nope. 

[Oscirus]

Just now, ShellsandCheese said:

Tyrion is still a Lannister. I don’t see Sansa settling down with him and living happily ever after. Her beloved North wouldn’t stand for it. You think the Tully’s would be okay with it? Or the Vale? Nope. 

Hence why I asked who's settling in winterfell? Only reason Sansa would go through with that is for politicial reasons.

[Lillith]

36 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Jaime going back to Cersei may be the single most unconvincing character beat of the entire series, and that's saying something.

I think he's going back to kill her because he doesnt' feel deserves happiness with Brienne and this is his atonement. 

[ShellsandCheese]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Hence why I asked who's settling in winterfell? Only reason Sansa would go through with that is for politicial reasons.

She doesn’t need to marry Tyrion for political reasons. At this stage, he brings nothing to the table. Also, unless D and D decide to change everything about her, she ain’t leaving Winterfell. If she were a real person, I’m sure she’d remind you that she won the Battle of the Bastards and she took back Winterfell, her home. She isn’t going anywhere. 

[Umbelina]

So now Dany has the added impetus that Misendre's last words were Dracarus.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, stagmania said:

People come up with the thinnest excuses to hate on Dany, honestly.

I never hated her, but she expects the north and Sansa just to except her, when they have 300 years of history; not happening, especially with the last 20 years still fresh in their minds.

[chrisvee]

I suspect this will be an unpopular opinion... it I thought it played better than the spoilers read.

I think it’s bc the actors are selling the heck out of it.

EC, KH, and ST really sold me on the Shakespearean tragedy of it. Jon (ironically, the child most like Ned Stark) is too naive about the political situation and too bothered by the blood relationship to lie.  Dany and Sansa understand the politics but can’t let go of even a little bit of their ambition to avoid the conflict.

It’s rushed and I don’t love the optics of two Lady MacBeths dueling amongst craven and hapless men. It could have been much better. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by chrisvee
Spelling

[Oscirus]

Just now, ShellsandCheese said:

She doesn’t need to marry Tyrion for political reasons. At this stage, he brings nothing to the table. Also, unless D and D decide to change everything about her, she ain’t leaving Winterfell. If she were a real person, I’m sure she’d remind you that she won the Battle of the Bastards and she took back Winterfell, her home. She isn’t going anywhere. 

Right now? No, he has nothing but if he does get influence and she wants northern independence, she can get it for her people through him. If not, she can stfu and continue being the warden proxy/ warden of the North.

[Neurochick]

Please just tell me Cersei dies.  I just want someone to wipe that smirk off her face.

[Morrigan2575]

10 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

I suspect this will be an unpopular opinion... it I thought it played better than the spoilers read.

I think it’s bc the actors are selling the heck out of it.

EC, KH, and ST really sold me on the Shakespearean tragedy of it. Jon (ironically, the child most like Edd Stark) is too naive about the political situation and too bothered by the blood relationship to lie.  Dany and Sansa understand the politics but can’t let go of even a little bit of their ambition to avoid the conflict.

It’s rushed and I don’t love the optics of two Lady MacBeths dueling amongst craven and hapless men. It could have been much better. 

I didn't hate the spoilers so I don't know if my opinion counts but, I liked the episode. I thought everything played out well. I don't think Sansa is ambitious (crave power) so much as wanting safety/home/control and hating anything Southern. 

The problem is Sansa wants the North (and by extension herself) to be free of Kings Landing. Dany wants everything she believes she's entitled to based on her birth and destiny and, that includes the North. 

It's the same argument Varys made, Dany won't share the Throne with Jon (even though Jon doesn't want it) because she believes it's hers by divine right. She won't give up the North for the same reason. 

Both women have locked in and refused to negotiate. Dany made her play by trying to manipulate Jon. Sansa made hers by (I believe) maniulating Tyrion.

Based on spoilers, neither one really won that battle but, Sansa wins the overall war by default, IMO

Edited May 6, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, stagmania said:

Sansa are the ones that spill the beans to others, they seem to be the ones who are acting without regard to his feelings on the matter. 

Yeah, and what about Varys, he's thinking of the people, not Jon's feelings; and after what Tyrion just witness, well here comes his conflicted loyalties .: Dany; will he still stand by her side after KL

Cersei; and his house because he still think she's carrying Jaime's kid, if Dany discovers it then what ?

Jon, and the Stark he respects the family and despite Sansa being honest with him, still carries a torch for her.

[ShellsandCheese]

5 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Based on spoilers, neither one really won that battle but, Sansa wins the overall war by default, IMO

Eh. Sounds like no one wins because everyone’s IQ seems to drop by 20 points every time they need to be sufficiently stupid to advance a nonsensical plot line. 

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

Cersei; and his house because he still think she's carrying Jaime's kid, if Dany discovers it then what ?

He literally just outted her kid if Dany didn't know about it which he probably already told her about, she definitely knows now. Cersei made her bed, time to lie in it.

[GrailKing]

Just now, Oscirus said:

He literally just outted her kid if Dany didn't know about it which he probably already told her about, she definitely knows now. Cersei made her bed, time to lie in it.

Yeah, but it's Euron, I'm thinking about.

I'm not sure he would mention that to Dani, he did offhandedly mentioned it to Sansa.

[ursula]

31 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I never hated her, but she expects the north and Sansa just to except her, when they have 300 years of history; not happening, especially with the last 20 years still fresh in their minds.

They do not have 300 years of history. They have Aerys's reign. Specifically Aerys's murder of Old Stark and Brandon Stark. That's it. Of all the Great Houses in Westeros, the Starks lost the least during the Targaryen conquest and they were Targaryen loyalists. Rickon Stark was BFFs with the Young Dragon and that's how Robb Stark's nickname was coined. 

It's remarkable how cleverly the narrative has warped reality so that the Starks and Targaryens are presented as enemies, when the conflict has always been between the Starks and Lannisters.

Now Sansa Stark finds it easier to take Brienne's word that Jaime Lannister who met her brother in battle, who threatened to murder her cousin the Tully, and whose family wrecked her own ---- is a changed man. She was forced into marriage to Tyrion Lannister and the Boltons connived with the Lannisters to murder her brother and mother and Ramsay raped her. The Red Wedding was straight-up born from Tywin Lannister's brain. 

But Brienne makes a speech and all is forgiven. Sansa and Tyrion are planning on making another go of their shotgun wedding*. Meanwhile Jon presents her with Dany who comes with dragons and armies to fight for the North and she finds his judgment questionable because Dany is the Mad King's daughter. Even though Sansa was born after the War, and has no memory of it whatsoever but was a prisoner of war to the Lannisters in King's Landing.

*A wedding whose purpose was to give the Lannisters control of the North.

19 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

It's the same argument Varys made, Dany won't share the Throne with Jon (even though Jon doesn't want it) because she believes it's hers by divine right. 

It's almost as if a marriage alliance to join competing claims has never been done or entertained in this world.

Or that Tyrion advised Dany to dump Daario in Essos to make herself available for just such a marriage alliance.

But I've long given up expecting this narrative to make any sense. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by ursula

[GrailKing]

28 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

I suspect this will be an unpopular opinion... it I thought it played better than the spoilers read.

I think it’s bc the actors are selling the heck out of it.

EC, KH, and ST really sold me on the Shakespearean tragedy of it. Jon (ironically, the child most like Edd Stark) is too naive about the political situation and too bothered by the blood relationship to lie.  Dany and Sansa understand the politics but can’t let go of even a little bit of their ambition to avoid the conflict.

It’s rushed and I don’t love the optics of two Lady MacBeths dueling amongst craven and hapless men. It could have been much better. 

I agree 99 %, But Sansa staying away from Danny, and gave Tyrion in her mind a better option with Jon.

Jon's naive of the politics, Sansa isn't.

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, ursula said:

They do not have 300 years of history. They have Aerys's reign. Specifically Aerys's murder of Old Stark and Brandon Stark. That's it. Of all the Great Houses in Westeros, the Starks lost the least during the Targaryen conquest and they were Targaryen loyalists. Rickon Stark was BFFs with the Young Dragon and that's how Robb Stark's nickname was coined. 

They also have all the wars that the Targs got them into, Dance of Dragons, and other wars, so yes it's 300 years of history.

[ShellsandCheese]

4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

They also have all the wars that the Targs got them into, Dance of Dragons, and other wars, so yes it's 300 years of history.

Sansa doesn’t give a crap about any that. 

[Morrigan2575]

15 minutes ago, ursula said:

They do not have 300 years of history. They have Aerys's reign. Specifically Aerys's murder of Old Stark and Brandon Stark. That's it. Of all the Great Houses in Westeros, the Starks lost the least during the Targaryen conquest and they were Targaryen loyalists. Rickon Stark was BFFs with the Young Dragon and that's how Robb Stark's nickname was coined. 

It's remarkable how cleverly the narrative has warped reality so that the Starks and Targaryens are presented as enemies, when the conflict has always been between the Starks and Lannisters.

Now Sansa Stark finds it easier to take Brienne's word that Jaime Lannister who met her brother in battle, who threatened to murder her cousin the Tully, and whose family wrecked her own ---- is a changed man. She was forced into marriage to Tyrion Lannister and the Boltons connived with the Lannisters to murder her brother and mother and Ramsay raped her. The Red Wedding was straight-up born from Tywin Lannister's brain. 

But Brienne makes a speech and all is forgiven. Sansa and Tyrion are planning on making another go of their shotgun wedding*. Meanwhile Jon presents her with Dany who comes with dragons and armies to fight for the North and she finds his judgment questionable because Dany is the Mad King's daughter. Even though Sansa was born after the War, and has no memory of it whatsoever but was a prisoner of war to the Lannisters in King's Landing.

*A wedding whose purpose was to give the Lannisters control of the North.

It's almost as if a marriage alliance to join competing claims has never been done or entertained in this world.

Or that Tyrion advised Dany to dump Daario in Essos to make herself available for just such a marriage alliance.

But I've long given up expecting this narrative to make any sense. 

They did make that argument. Tyrion made it twice. Both figured Jon wouldn't marry his Aunt and even if he did Dany wouldn't accept co-rule and basically crush Jon under her thumb anyway.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[GrailKing]

Just now, ShellsandCheese said:

Sansa doesn’t give a crap about any that. 

Yes she does, she mentions the history that caused pain and hardship for the north more than once, in speaking to Jon, and Dani.

It's all about safety and self rule for her, Family, Home and the north; the south and the Targs screwed them over royaly, being good servants of the crown got them nothing, whether it was Targ, or Baratheo, or Lannisters.

[ursula]

9 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

They also have all the wars that the Targs got them into, Dance of Dragons, and other wars, so yes it's 300 years of history.

The North did not fight in the Dance of Dragons.  😑 

[ShellsandCheese]

I hope Cersei lives and crushes the North. LOL. Maybe the real moral of the story is don’t treat someone who could have been a powerful ally like shit. All of the plot points this last episode were just DAF. The people left playing the game are total amateurs, I’m looking at you Tyrion, Sansa, and Jon. And poor Dany, all the bad advice she’s been getting from her advisors seems to be a set up to make her fail.