Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[GraceK]

2 minutes ago, raven said:

I'm annoyed that apparently Tyrion, who has been frankly terrible at everything after killing Tywin and Shae, survives.  

Pretty much. Making him her hand was her downfall. 

[anamika]

Just now, SimoneS said:

Remember this is Martin, not D&D. These plot points are so specifically designed to trigger Dany that I can only conclude that this is Martin's vision they are carrying out.

You think GRRM is going to have the mountain cut off 10 year old Missandei's head on Cersei's orders and put Bronn on an advisory council?  These characters and their roles are completely different in the books. I doubt little Missandei is even going to go to Westeros in the books and Bronn's role on the show is totally D&D for fan service.

[Colorful Mess]

14 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Except it apparently isn't a 'fight'. It's Jon sucker-punching Dany when she least expects it. That's not a fight -  a fight I could reconcile and even get behind, assassination not so much.

That was the fight I was imagining to some degree -- that deception would be used, because truth/lies is so much a part of this story. There was a lot of foreshadowing for her being betrayed by the people closest to her and by her being assassinated. 

GRRM critiqued writers who make characters be exactly as they appear. So Jon isn't the lovable cinnamon roll folks thought he was. And why would he be? GRRM edited an entire volume called "Rogues" in which he praised the scoundrels, con men, thieves, cheats, rascals, swindlers, seducers, deceivers in fiction. Of course he's going to have his main guy written like that. It also helps to be critical of Targaryens in general. I think this dynasty is terrible and even the two "best" Targaryens isn't enough to justify a genuine romance or a restoration. 

GRRM's season 3 episode:

"People work together when it suits them.
They’re loyal when it suits them.
They love each other when it suits them.
And they kill each other when it suits them."

- S03E07

[SimoneS]

4 minutes ago, anamika said:

You think GRRM is going to have the mountain cut off 10 year old Missandei's head on Cersei's orders and put Bronn on an advisory council?  These characters and their roles are completely different in the books. I doubt little Missandei is even going to go to Westeros in the books and Bronn's role on the show is totally D&D for fan service.

Yes, I do because GRRM has made it clear that he is capable of writing characters who can do anything under any circumstances. At this stage, I put absolutely nothing past him. I really do think this is why he has been unable to finish the books. 

Edited May 5, 2019 by SimoneS

[nikma]

23 minutes ago, Bannon said:

What happens in the next episode only happens because the writers removed the intellects of nearly everybody at Winterfell, so the writers could obtain their Shocking and Tragic Plot Twists. It is the laziest writing imaginable, worthy of a mediocre drama on TBS, with scripts scribbled by tree sloths.

No, but no pont in this discussion apparently. I love it  I love tragedies and I am happy the show won't have conventional ending. 

Story that started with Ned's death should end this way. And I am happy GRRM and D&D stayed true to themselves.

[GraceK]

Well, I was completely wrong on so many different levels that was for sure. Like, Uber wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. I honestly didn’t see things going this way. 🤦🏻‍♀️

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, nikma said:

No, but no pont in this discussion apparently. I love it  I love tragedies and I am happy the show won't have conventional ending. 

Story that started with Ned's death should end this way. And I am happy GRRM and D&D stayed true to themselves.

I love tragedies as well. I don't remember, however, Hamlet being too dumb to remember how to tie his shoes.

[Morrigan2575]

4 minutes ago, nikma said:

No, but no pont in this discussion apparently. I love it  I love tragedies and I am happy the show won't have conventional ending. 

Story that started with Ned's death should end this way. And I am happy GRRM and D&D stayed true to themselves.

I won't know if I'll love it until I see it play out but, I think I'm happy with it. I stopped expecting good/happy, traditional hero endings when Ned Stark lost his head. The Red Wedding convinced me it would end in mostly tragedy and blood.

I think this is probably the only way it could end without being a total copout. I'm sad for Jon's ending but, even that is fitting to the character. 

The Pack and Tyrion survives, I'm pretty happy at this point

Edited May 5, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[anamika]

6 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Yes, I do because GRRM has made it clear that he is capable of writing characters who can do anything under any circumstances. At this stage, I put absolutely nothing past him. I really do think this is why he has been unable to finish the books.  

Cersei is not even going to be the person sitting on the throne by the time Dany gets to Westeros! There are several other contenders vying for it.  The Lannisters are getting kicked out of KL by the next book.

I doubt even GRRM knows the endings of minor characters like Missandei and Bronn in the books. They are not important enough for him to plan ahead and plot their journeys. He only knows how it ends for his major characters, which he told D&D. He did not even know what the Hound's ending was going to be and I would  think the Hound is a more important character than Missandei.

Edited May 5, 2019 by anamika

[tangerine95]

I don't even really care how it plays out in the books if it's Jon kills Dany.To me that's always been a disgusting ending if it's nissa nissa sacrifice type or putting down mad queen dany or whatever version.

[nikma]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

I love tragedies as well. I don't remember, however, Hamlet being too dumb to remember how to tie his shoes.

And you know this how? Her on the Iron Throne is the logical end of her story.

Cersei will be the last person in history to sit on IT.  This does say something about Iron Throne.

[Minneapple]

Well, I always love a good fandom meltdown, so here we go. Look like I'll need a solid three weeks' worth of popcorn for this. 

[Edith]

11 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

True but Jon survives, he doesn't win in any sense of the word, if anything he loses personally. So it's still odd. Given these likely true spoilers - a Stark sigil would've been more fitting/apt.

Because the combined sigils was about the filming units, dragon and wolf? Again fans reaching...it was a goodbye party for the crew members..

22 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

It would appear that Sophie Turner's "The Pack Survives" tattoo was indeed a spoiler after all. 

Sophie was never good a keeping secrets, and I also remembered tgat Isaac signed autographs in Seville as "The Starks rules"

[GraceK]

I just really hope Dany fucks some shit up first. 

[BooBear]

15 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Pretty much. Making him her hand was her downfall. 

What was her downfall was being "nice" and not going with her instincts. Over in Essos she did what she wanted. Over here whenever she listened to anyone else it was always the wrong move.  I guess it is a lesson for the ladies out there... go with your gut. 

[GraceK]

Poor Missendei. She didn’t deserve that . 

[Bannon]

I just can't get over the towering laziness of it all. I think there was an episode of Gilligan's Island where a coconut falls from a tree and hits Gilligan in the head, and he becomes as smart as the Professor for a while, until another coconut falls and hits him on the head, and he becomes Gilligan again. Hijinks happen in between.

I thinking we are looking at the reverse here. Beware a bunch of rocks falling from the top of Wnterfell early in the episode, while the Winterfell cast is gathered below!

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Well, I always love a good fandom meltdown, so here we go. Look like I'll need a solid three weeks' worth of popcorn for this. 

Good thing I still have popcorn left over from Endgame 😂

[Stallion12]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

Recall that the final book's title was originally supposed to be A Time For Wolves. Now, we can assume that Jon is going to be broody and angry for a long time or the rest of his life. But if Arya, Sansa and Bran are generally happy or content, then that's what bittersweet might be referring to.

It still sounds more bitter than bittersweet.

[GraceK]

Just now, BooBear said:

What was her downfall was being "nice" and not going with her instincts. Over in Essos she did what she wanted. Over here whenever she listened to anyone else it was always the wrong move.  I guess it is a lesson for the ladies out there... go with your gut. 

Absolutely agree. She should listened to Yara and Olenna in the beginning.

[Bannon]

9 minutes ago, nikma said:

And you know this how? Her on the Iron Throne is the logical end of her story.

Cersei will be the last person in history to sit on IT.  This does say something about Iron Throne.

11 minutes ago, nikma said:

And you know this how? Her on the Iron Throne is the logical end of her story.

Cersei will be the last person in history to sit on IT.  This does say something about Iron Throne.

I dont think your reply was to my post.

[GraceK]

He wasn’t wrong 😂

[BooBear]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I just can't get over the towering laziness of it all.

And just like the long night people have to be stupid for it to work out. How is it exactly that Euron, the towering moron, manages to take out a dragon? Ugh that annoys me most of all.   Why isn't Dany more prepared? Over in Essos she was a boss, over here she is a moron. Everyone has to be different than they should be for the plot points to work.

Edited May 5, 2019 by BooBear

[ShellsandCheese]

I really want to know how Cersei gets Missendei. I mean was she just wondering around the streets of King’s Landing. Wouldn’t she have been on the ship with Tyrion and Varys. Did they kidnap her off the ship? None of this makes any sense. I legit wouldn’t have a problem with an ending where Dany dies, but it’s how they are getting from A to B that makes me annoyed and frustrated. 

Edited May 5, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[Advance35]

Quote

Well, I always love a good fandom meltdown, so here we go. Look like I'll need a solid three weeks' worth of popcorn for this. 

LOL, I'll join your table.

Not shocked by any of the leaks or of the fates revealed.   The potential fate spelled out in the leaks is no worse then Ned Stark or The Red Wedding, in my eyes.

Though I admit, it looks like my fave will come through everything ok, all things considered.  So I guess it's easy for me to smile at the shock of it all.

But I agree with a poster up thread, there are SO many Mad Queen Dany theories running around, that speculation caught fire for a reason.

I have know doubt this is the fate of all these characters in the books.  GRRM just didn't get there (and let's be real, he was never going to).  I'm still grateful to D&D that I will know how this whole saga ends.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Advance35

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, BooBear said:

And just like the long night people have to be stupid for it to work out. How is it exactly the Euron, the towering moron, manages to take out a dragon? Ugh that annoys me most of all.   Why isn't Dany more prepared? Over in Essos she was a boss, over here she is a moron. Everyone has to be different than they should be for the plot points to work.

I can hand wave the long night due the supernatural nature of the opponent. Here we have humans on both sides, with the addition of the dragons. Unless Martin forgot to tell us the part where having dragons made a person as mentally capable as a mollusk, I don't  get it.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Bannon

[YaddaYadda]

5 minutes ago, BooBear said:

Why isn't Dany more prepared? Over in Essos she was a boss, over here she is a moron. Everyone has to be different than they should be for the plot points to work.

Because Cersei must teach her a lesson. 

Everyone has been considerably dumbed down for this to happen. 

[Stallion12]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

I am the only one here who loves this ending lol.

But I really do. I always wanted tragic ending for something this popular. For me it's brave to do this. 

Let the internet explode. 

And the franchise, many aren't going to watch thecspinoffs if the ending is this bad.

[Brn2bwild]

26 minutes ago, anamika said:

Thank god for small favors. Ghost, Arya and Nymeria. I just want these three to leave Westeros and go off and be happy.

You know I was actually thinking that Missandei would have been a good candidate for being an adviser on the council - intelligent, diplomatic, knows several languages and cultures. D&D brutally killing her off and having fucking Bronn on that council at the end? Fucking typical.

Missandei should have been Dany's Hand all along.  Tyrion hasn't given her good advice once since he became her adviser.  If these spoilers are true, even his advice to trust Jon Snow was bad.  But smug white dude who talks like he knows everything trumps the savvy brown slave who understood immediately that the "peace" with the Meereen slavers was hollow.

[SimoneS]

If Drogon is still alive and the NK will come again, then magic isn't leaving the land. Anyway below is a summary of the episode. I am pretty sure it is accurate because it is similar to the Thai translated summary on FF which is more detailed. I think Missandei was sent to negotiate with Cersei which why she is executed at KL. Nope, she was just captured somehow.

Quote

Episode starts with Funerals for those who died in Battle of Winterfell.
 

Celebration afterwards for victory against the dead. People mainly praising Jon and Arya and Dany is jealous of this.
 

Gendry seeks Arya out during the celebration but before he can find her Dany stops him and appoints him to be Lord of Storm's End for his efforts.
 

Jamie and Brienne have a conversation. Can't figure out what is said from this but ends in them having sex.
 

Gendry finally finds Arya. Gendry wants a relationship/marriage? but Arya isn't interested.
 

Dany and Jon discuss his parentage. I can't tell what is said in this scene. *Bronn arrives. Instead of killing Jamie and Tyrion, meets with them and tells them of offer from Qyburn. Bronn reminds Tyrion of his promise to double any price on his head. Tyrion promises to meet offer.
 

Starks all meet up and talk. During this conversation, Jon's parentage is brought up by Bran?
 

Everyone leaves Winterfell for Dragonstone. Tormund decides to go back North and Jon asks him to take Ghost with him.

Discussions as to what to do next take place between everyone. Disagreements as to whether to directly attack King's Landing or not but Dany decides to anyways?

There is a bunch of stuff I can't decipher sorry.
 

Next thing I can read mentions that the surprise attack by Euron on Dany's fleet occurs on the way to Dragonstone. Rhaegal dies as already leaked. Missandei goes missing.
 

At Dragonstone, plans are made to negotiate an end to conflicts. (WOW SUCH A RAGING MADT QUEEN )
 

Dany's army arrives at King's Landing. Negotiation offer refused. Missandei's death occurs. Episode ends.

Edited May 5, 2019 by SimoneS

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I really want to know how Cersei gets Missendei. I mean was she just wondering around the streets of Kong’s Landing. Wouldn’t she have been on the ship with Tyrion and Varys. Did they kidnap her off the ship? None of this makes any sense. I legit wouldn’t have a problem with an ending where Dany dies, but it’s how they are getting from A to B that makes me annoyed and frustrated. 

I'm tellin' ya'; Euron has sharks with frikkin' laser beams! He offers to sell them to Cersei for one MILLION gold coins!

[Stallion12]

1 hour ago, raven said:

This.  But these are the same guys who transported characters thousands of miles in impossibly short periods of time and then told everyone "we have to get them from point A to point B! don't think about it!".

So Tyrion has to a complete 180 of personality to keep Cersei around and everyone else acts like chumps.

The bones of a good story are there but the meat is bad, especially if all of these spoilers are true, which seems more and more likely.

I know right??  They're not going with "power corrupts" they're going with "something shocking makes you go nuts" LOL.  Well the show made a ton of money for HBO so really they're not going to care.

HBO might if the prequels don't Gardner interest because the ending was so bad.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

I am the only one here who loves this ending lol.

But I really do. I always wanted tragic ending for something this popular. For me it's brave to do this. 

Let the internet explode. 

To be fair, it is easy for you to love the ending. You have said that you and the group around you hates Dany so it totally works for you.

[BooBear]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I can hand wave the long night due the supernatural nature of the opponent. Here we have humans on both sides, with the addition of the dragons. Unless Martin forgot to tell us the part where having dragons made a person as mentally capable as a mollusk, I don't  get it.

There is just no way the dragons should be so easily defeated... nor should the ballistas be so easy to fire.  No should Dany have gone to Dragonstone. This is not the sneaky smart boss we saw get the unsullied in season 3. This is not the person infuriated with her hand last season because he wanted to discuss things after she took the throne and she wanted to discuss how to get the throne.

Oh and I don't believe for a second that Brianne and Jamie would have sex. Nope that isn't Brianne that is fan service. 

Edited May 5, 2019 by BooBear

[Chiny11]

2 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Missandei should have been Dany's Hand all along.  Tyrion hasn't given her good advice once since he became her adviser.  If these spoilers are true, even his advice to trust Jon Snow was bad.  But smug white dude who talks like he knows everything trumps the savvy brown slave who understood immediately that the "peace" with the Meereen slavers was hollow.

True.  There was a reason Lady Olenna warned her about listening to all these men. 🤷‍♀️

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, BooBear said:

There is just now way the dragons should be so easily defeated... nor should the ballistas be so easy to fire.  No should Dany have gone to Dragonstone. This is not the sneaky smart boss we saw get the unsullied in season 3. This is not the person infuriated with her hand last season because he wanted to discuss things after she took the throne and she wanted to discuss how to get the throne.

Oh and I don't believe for a second that Brianne and Jamie would have sex. Nope that isn't Brianne that is fan service. 

It's really, really, bad.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

The way Missandei dies is brutal and shocking, but I'm a bit surprised that some of you didn't expect her to die at all. She always was a likely candidate.

I'm not surprised. When I watched last episode where she insulted Sansa, the first thing I said was that I was shocked D&D didn't kill her for that. So this is actually kind of text book.

[GraceK]

So according to that summary, it still seems like Dany tries to negotiate and be reasonable and Cersei decides to straight up murder Missandei. 

So tell me, in what universe is Daenarys not allowed to flip her shit and finally rain down fire and blood? How much more saintly can she be? How are her actions not justified?

Edited May 5, 2019 by GraceK

[ShellsandCheese]

3 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

If Drogon is still alive and the NK will come again, then magic isn't leaving the land. Anyway below is a summary of the episode. I am pretty sure it is accurate because it is similar to the Thai translated summary on FF which is more detailed. I think Missandei was sent to negotiate with Cersei which why she is executed at KL.

So in other words, Dany is attacked by Cersei. Goes to Kings Landing to negotiate an end to hostilities and Cersei then has the Mountain kill Missendei. But Dany is the ultimate big bad who must be put down. LMAO. Shit if this is true, I’m rooting for her 100% to burn everything. And I think most of the audience would be on her side. Jeez. 

[onyxrose81]

I also am livid why only men are on the ruling council?  And Bronn?  Sellsword Bronn?  Why the fuck would he care about other people?   This is a horrible ending. 

Dany is still be reasonable and trying to negotiate.  She needs to wreck shit. 

Edited May 5, 2019 by onyxrose81

[Spartan Girl]

I think there's only one thing to say after reading all these pages:

"Oh fuck me."

Edited May 5, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, GraceK said:

So according to that summary, it still seems like Dany tries to negotiate and be reasonable and Cersei decides to straight up murder Missandei. 

So tell me, in what universe is Daenarys not allowed to flip her shit and finally rain down fire and blood? How much more saintly can she be? How are her actions not justified?

It's what allows Missandei to be captured which is likely too stupid for words..

[GraceK]

Just now, ShellsandCheese said:

So in other words, Dany is attacked by Cersei. Goes to Kings Landing to negotiate an end to hostilities and Cersei then has the Mountain kill Missendei. But Dany is the ultimate big bad who must be put down. LMAO. Shit if this is true, I’m rooting for her 100% to burn everything. And I think most of the audience would be on her side. Jeez. 

That’s my point. Dany has helped win a war against the dead, gets attacked and her child gets killed, then her best friend gets murdered, and when she fights back finally with no holds barred, shes the bad guy????? How? HOW????

[anamika]

14 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

And the franchise, many aren't going to watch thecspinoffs if the ending is this bad. 

We don't need the last 3 episodes for that. Why should anyone be interested in watching the Long Night if the baddies are losers who get defeated in one episode by a little ninja assassin?  Cersei has killed more protagonists, done more damage and is more deadly than the NK and his army. Why should anyone care or watch about the NK after episode 3?

21 minutes ago, BooBear said:

How is it exactly that Euron, the towering moron, manages to take out a dragon?

His stealth ships constantly appearing out of nowhere is equally annoying.  The writing on this show is soooo terrible. Damn.

You want the good writing, but you need the bad subversion.

And we thought Dorne was bad.

14 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

But smug white dude who talks like he knows everything trumps the savvy brown slave who understood immediately that the "peace" with the Meereen slavers was hollow. 

Like real life then.

Edited May 5, 2019 by anamika

[YaddaYadda]

5 minutes ago, GraceK said:

So tell me, in what universe is Daenarys not allowed to flip her shit and finally rain down fire and blood? How much more saintly can she be? How are her actions not justified?

In the universe where two dudes are hellbent on writing her as a crazy person.

[ShellsandCheese]

I watched the clip Varys and Tyrion are there. They are all there on land in Kings Landing. Tyrion doesn’t seem shocked or surprised. Tyrion has turned into the biggest idiot on the show. I will be furious if he gets rewarded for his stupidity by getting named to some ruling council. 

Also, it sounds like the only women who get a happy ending are women like Sansa who were always the victim. The women who tried to take control and have agency and not just exist to be pawns of men must all die! 

[BadAssRobinArryn]

1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

In the universe where two dudes are hellbent on writing her as a crazy person.

Except I don't think so. If anything the two white dudes followed the ending of one other white dude and on their way try to make Dany's actions as understandable as possible.

[raven]

I would have had Dany burn KL as soon as she arrived, but fine, keep the dumb wight hunt (though I would leave it out completely; the NK didn't really need Viserion, could have got past wall differently).  The NK could have killed Viserion during the battle of Winterfell.

They return and though no one is expecting it. Dany burns Cersei; she has waited too long, will not pass up this chance and they don’t need Cersei personally.  This causes a rift between her and Jon, thought Jon knows they still need Dany and the dragons.  The Jamie/Cersei split could have happened for some other reason and sent Jamie north if the writers were so hot to get him there.

Dany leaves Varys in charge at KL with some Dothraki.  I would have left Tyrion there too because of his bad counsel, but maybe he goes north for his pointless reunion with Sansa.

Major dissent is brewing between Jon/Dany and we can have his worry about power corrupting.  Sam talks about the Mad King and possibly Mad Queen.  We need seeds of doubt planted with Jon and for the audience to wonder if Dany can be brought back from the brink, will Jon stick with her or not, etc.

Battle at Winterfell goes as shown, minus cute scene of Jon and Dany dragon flying.  Possibly he flies on one because it’s needed, but it's not romantic.  He learns his true identity as we were shown and tries to get through to Dany but she is firm on her destiny as Queen.

Back at KL, Varys discovers that Cersei is still alive and conceals this information because the Dothraki have been busy pillaging and he cannot control them..  Qyburn used one of the smallfolk as some kind of body double.   Cersei plans to attack Dany with Urine’s fleet and the GC on their return.

Dany returns to KL.  Jon and Dany have had a permanent split.  Dany is attacked by Cersei’s forces on her return and loses Rhaegel and Grey Worm and more Unsullied.  She is furious that Cersei is alive and that this info was kept from her by Varys and probably Tyrion.  Jamie has returned as well but is horrified that Cersei planted wildfire all around the city because she would rather have the city destroyed than have the YMBQ on the throne. 

Jamie kills Cersei.    Jamie dies.   We can still have the Hound/Mountain and whatever was planned there.

Dany plans to burns the rest of KL; she does not want anyone remaining who was on Cersei’s side.  She burns Tyrion and Qyburn (maybe Varys), burns Urine’s fleet (he dies painfully).   Jon has gone south to try to reason with Dany but gets nowhere.  They struggle and Dany dies.  OR Dany goes back north after the events at KL to try to get Jon back on her side; he can’t be swayed and they struggle and Dany dies. 

Show ends with the council with a few changes by me (swap out Bronn with Missandei).  Still not ideal (oh, those crazy women, good thing we have these men to save us) but a few things could be tweaked if the point is to have a council and not a king/queen.

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, anamika said:

His stealth ships constantly appearing out of nowhere is equally annoying.  The writing on this show is soooo terrible. Damn.

Also, apparently, Bran retires to Winterfell's opium den, for a little R&R, after the long night, thus allowing Euron's winning streak to continue.

[Spartan Girl]

4 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I watched the clip Varys and Tyrion are there. They are all there on land in Kings Landing. Tyrion doesn’t seem shocked or surprised. Tyrion has turned into the biggest idiot on the show. I will be furious if he gets rewarded for his stupidity by getting named to some ruling council. 

Also, it sounds like the only women who get a happy ending are women like Sansa who were always the victim. The women who tried to take control and have agency and not just exist to be pawns of men must all die! 

SERIOUSLY.

I'm not shocked that Missandei dies but if it leads to Dany being shoehorned as the villain it's such a disservice to her character. 

Poor Grey Worm.

BURN THEM ALL.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Spartan Girl