Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Eyes High]

16 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

One hint that could foreshadow Tyrion's betrayal: Dany's roasting him in 8x02 was a variation of Sansa's roast to LF in 6x05 (fool/traitor vs idiot/enemy). This kind of parallel is usually a bad omen.

To be fair, the writers firmly maintained that LF truly was an idiot about Ramsay and was genuinely, honestly unaware of his true nature (which I find ridiculous, but whatever). Also, Sansa didn't execute LF over the Ramsay thing, anyway. So going off that parallel, Tyrion is forgiven for actually being an idiot this time around but will get in trouble later on for something else he does.

Quote

It's pretty clear that Arya is in for a rude awakening in 8x03, the superposition of the scenes in the trailer couldn't have been more obvious.

Can't wait! I'm sick of her dead-eyed smugness.

11 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

This is a fair point. But it may that the Starks still view Tyrion’s actions as a betrayal even if he is doing it because he perceives rightly or wrongly that they are a threat to Dany. 

Well, inquiring minds wanna know... 

Friki and Javi have been saying things about Tyrion locking the gates so that the KL smallfolk get burned to death, although it's not clear why. Last-ditch attempt to ensure that no smallfolk are added to the AOTD? Revenge on the smallfolk who always hated him and wanted him dead? I mean, if that's the case, that would be a terrible crime...but it's not a betrayal.

I think Friki also made noises about Tyrion being accused of multiple crimes at his trial. And then there's supposedly a Lannister fan line Bran throws back in Tyrion's face ("I never bet against my family," which Tyrion never said in the show, later said to be "Family first"), suggesting that he did it for the Lannisters, although again I don't see how burning the smallfolk accomplishes anything for the Lannisters (especially if Jaime is already dead by this point and Cersei has lost her throne), except as a "Fuck you" sort of gesture. And then of course NCW made that infamous comment about the end of the show playing out like a murder mystery where the reveal of the "killer" makes sense, which sounds a bit like the cutaway scene Friki's source described where Tyrion's treason is outed by Jon, Dany, Sansa, Bran and Arya, and of course that doesn't sound like some sort of noble act of defending the living from the AOTD that Friki and Javi were referencing but rather some sort of Machiavellian scheme that really doesn't map on to anything I saw in 8x01 or 8x02. And I also don't understand why Tyrion's treason is outed in a meeting with the Starks and Dany, and afterwards they throw him in jail for a few months.

....So I don't know. It's all very confusing to me.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Eyes High

[screamin]

27 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

But really, his real allegiance is supposed to lie with Dany. Siding with her over the Starks to protect Dany's interests wouldn't really be a betrayal, since his loyalties ultimately belong to Dany and not the Starks and the Starks are well aware of that fact.

If Jon and Dany marry, they become 'one flesh' and so technically a betrayal of the one is a betrayal of the other.

While I'm not so sure as I was that Dany is pregnant, I still think it may happen - and if so, Jon wouldn't let their current partial estrangement with the news he's her nephew and the heir to the throne before her keep him from making sure no child of his is born a bastard. Such a wedding wouldn't be the joyous occasion it would have been before Jon found out he was a Targaryen - Dany will likely remain distrustful for quite a while, regardless of the political necessities that oblige a marriage, and Jon isn't likely to forget she's his aunt, as well as the fact that she distrusts his motives in telling her he's the heir. And Tyrion would observe that and think maybe it's best and safest for Dany if he finds some way to get rid of Jon.

Then again, the pace is so damned slow these past couple of episodes that it's hard to imagine enough time will pass for Dany to even realize she's pregnant before almost everybody dies and the entire series is over, so maybe there's no pregnancy, wedding, or anything else.

[Wouter]

22 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

IMHO, I think Robert absolutely knew the truth, but he chose the narrative that allowed him to wage his war against the Targaeryens. 

Whatever Robert believed (his line in the books about "Rhaegar has her now, while I am stuck with Cersei" may point to him realising the truth, on some level), it was not his choice to wage war. Robert remained quietly in the Vale until king Aerys explicitly demanded that Lord Arryn delivered both Robert and Ned Stark to be executed. That was Aerys' own doing, possibly aided by untrustworthy advisors like (book) Varys.

9 hours ago, nikma said:

The only betrayal that is possible now is if he does something really bad, so he could stop WW.  Betrayal for family won't happen, because they've accepted Jaime, and Starks and Dany didn't show any sign that they would harm Cersei's child. 

But more and more I think it was leak trap that Friki got. 

It's a puzzle, Friki is generally proven yet it seems hard to see the betrayal at this point.

And while Friki did not retract his leak, it's not certain that means he has info (from his proven-to-be-reliable source for episodes) confirming his earlier info. After HBO took action against him, Friki can no longer post spoilers anywhere so would his source still even take the risk to continue to supply material? And if Friki did got info for the later episodes, would he take the risk of pissing off HBO any further by even hinting at confirmation or denial?

7 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

I suppose it's possible that if Sansa explicitly says the North will never bow to Dany even with Jon having bent the knee then Tyrion will decide to be proactive and do something to try and eliminate all of them.  In addition, if Jon does decide to make a play for the Iron Throne then he might do the same.  However, I cannot see Jon claiming his birthright unless Dany dies.

Sansa did not say the north will never bow to Dany, though. She may be angling for a decent price though, just like Dorne's independence needed to be bought in the end: with a proper marriage alliance. Other have already suggested it, but Sansa might be attempting to pressure Dany into seriously considering that option. Marry Jon to appease the north, and do herself a pleasure in the process. Sansa does not know about Jon's parents yet, but that would only increase the need for a solution as the competing claims would be unified (and Jon is still the chosen king in the north, son of a Stark).

2 hours ago, ElizaD said:

Sex didn't doom Gendry! The ASOIAF reddit has a magazine scan where Joe Dempsie mentions filming in Seville for season 8. Now I really wonder why trailer Arya looks so frightened.

A ton of unspoiled viewers seem to believe that all the talk about Tyrion's intelligence was buildup to him learning something from his conversation with Bran that will allow him to redeem himself.

I wonder if Tyrion and Bran talked about what needs to be done in/to KL, as a variant of the "Bran-them-all" theory.

Would be great if Gendry survived. As show-Gendry also has elements of book-Edric Storm, he may end up as a legitimised Baratheon.

[bubble sparkly]

The only reason I can think of for them to throw Tyrion in jail for a few months is that, for whatever reason, D&D want to time his trial to fit with another event. Dany giving birth could possibly fit if you assume she’s already a couple of months pregnant but doesn’t realise. Although that still seems odd because it’s not like they couldn’t delay the trial for a few more days if she went into labor.

[YaddaYadda]

10 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Friki and Javi have been saying things about Tyrion locking the gates so that the KL smallfolk get burned to death, although it's not clear why. Last-ditch attempt to ensure that no smallfolk are added to the AOTD? Revenge on the smallfolk who always hated him and wanted him dead? I mean, if that's the case, that would be a terrible crime...but it's not a betrayal.

It wasn't the smallfolk who put him on trial for Joffrey's murder. That was all Tywin and Cersei. He killed the one and the other is still alive.

But burning down a city the size of King's Landing, he would have to either use the dragons to get it done and that's something he explicitly told Dany she should not do and he was 100% opposed to a blockade because the smallfolk were the ones who would suffer, and I don't see Jon or Dany frankly being on board with it. Or he'd have to blow up the city to kingdom come with wildfire.

[Wouter]

In the second episode, Sansa did end up defending Tyrion in front of Dany. While she was not alone in this (with an unlikely series of assists from master diplomat Jorah - a very pleasant character in the show, much like Davos), it may help explain why Hannah Murray referred to Sansa and Tyrion the way she did. Sansa still feels quite positive about Tyrion and Dany is now aware of that.

[Happy Harpy]

10 minutes ago, screamin said:

the fact that she distrusts his motives in telling her he's the heir.

She doesn't distrust his motives. She distrusts the motives of the people who told him. From what Emilia says (I linked the EW interview in the book talk episode thread) Daenerys knows that "Jon doesn't even want the throne".

8 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Would be great if Gendry survived. As show-Gendry also has elements of book-Edric Storm, he may end up as a legitimised Baratheon.

If he survives, he might be a legitimized Baratheon in the books, too. GRRM was very involved with the show (he wrote 3x05, with the reveal of his parentage) when they chose to give him the Dragonstone escape storyline. Edric Storm is like FAegon, he doesn't count.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[Wouter]

6 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

But burning down a city the size of King's Landing, he would have to either use the dragons to get it done and that's something he explicitly told Dany she should not do and he was 100% opposed to a blockade because the smallfolk were the ones who would suffer, and I don't see Jon or Dany frankly being on board with it. Or he'd have to blow up the city to kingdom come with wildfire.

Actual medieval cities burned pretty easily; lots of wood and very cramped streets. It wouldn't strictly require dragonfire or even wildfire.

[Wouter]

14 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

If he survives, he might be a legitimized Baratheon in the books, too. GRRM was very involved with the show (he wrote 3x05, with the reveal of his parentage) when they chose to give him the Dragonstone escape storyline. Edric Storm is like FAegon, he doesn't count.

Edric isn't a pretender like fAegon, though. He is educated as a lord and GRRM wrote it so that he is safe. It would be quite easy to have him inherit house Baratheon after Stannis dies, and a new ruler sees fit to raise Edric instead.

Unless it is fAegon himself who may be that ruler, in that case Gendry might just make it in the books, to. Allthough a blacksmith becoming a lord seems unlikely in GRRM's world and books. Maybe the Starks would give him an education, assuming he winds up with them in the books, to.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Wouter

[Happy Harpy]

1 minute ago, Wouter said:

Edric isn't a pretender like fAegon, though. He is educated as a lord and GRRM wrote it so that he is safe. It would be quite easy to have him inherit house Baratheon after Stannis dies, and a new ruler seems fit to raise Edric instead.

Sorry, I meant that FAegon like Edric Storm weren't important enough to appear on the show, so they're very likely to die in the books before the War for the Dawn even begins.

[SeanC]

57 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Her asking Thoros if he could bring back a body without a head would become foreshadowing if it's Ned's headless body she confronts there.

Ned's remains were reduced to the size of a small chest when last we saw them on the show.  Beyond which, there's no dramatic weight to a headless body; nothing about it would be identifiable as Ned, so it really wouldn't work even if his body wasn't down to bones.

29 minutes ago, screamin said:

Then again, the pace is so damned slow these past couple of episodes that it's hard to imagine enough time will pass for Dany to even realize she's pregnant before almost everybody dies and the entire series is over, so maybe there's no pregnancy, wedding, or anything else.

If there is a pregnancy reveal (beyond something in an epilogue), my guess would be that it's part of the characters' reconciliation midseason.

13 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Edric isn't a pretender like fAegon, though. He is educated as a lord and GRRM wrote it so that he is safe. It would be quite easy to have him inherit house Baratheon after Stannis dies, and a new ruler seems fit to raise Edric instead.

Unless it is fAegon himself who may be that ruler, in that case Gendry might just make it in the books, to. Allthough a blacksmith becoming a lord seems unlikely in GRRM's world and books. Maybe the Starks would give him an education, assuming he winds up with them in the books, to.

My guess is that whatever role Gendry has in the future books is in the capacity of Arya's friend/potential love interest, not as a Baratheon heir.

Random observation:  we still haven't seen Sansa's scaly dress from the Entertainment Weekly cover.  Unless that's an epilogue dress, I'm curious in what capacity that dress would appear now -- whether 803 is a rout (which I still have a hard time seeing working on a narrative level, though God knows this show has run with bad ideas many times) or some sort of stalemate/tactical withdrawal, sewing herself new clothes would seem like a low priority.

Edited April 23, 2019 by SeanC

[Wouter]

14 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Sorry, I meant that FAegon like Edric Storm weren't important enough to appear on the show, so they're very likely to die in the books before the War for the Dawn even begins.

fAegon wasn't important enough (and would cost to much in time, actor wages and extra settings), but we know that because he will ultimately be proven fake. He is probably there in the books to give Dany an opponent who is not a cardboard villain and possibly sympathetic to some point, and thus something she (and the reader) could be conflicted about. Sort of like Sansa in episode 2, as someone else wrote earlier. Parts of his storyline may have been transferred to other characters (if Friki is right about his big leak, Tyrion's betrayal may have something to do with fAegon in the books).

Edric Storm is a minor book character, but he isn't likely to die as he is safely in Essos. The reason he did not appear in the show seems easy to me: Edric Storm doesn't interact with anybody after his escape from Stannis, and Gendry could easily take over his part in the show. Would be a no-brainer for the showrunners, who did not even include the relatively important (plotwise) Jeyne Poole. Sansa's emotional reaction to Theon in ep2 would probably be Jeyne-territory, in the books.

In the absence of Edric in the show, Gendry may take his potential endgame if the showrunners like that better than whatever ending Gendry may have in the books (which GRRM may not even know yet). Though it could affect Arya's ending too, so maybe not.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Wouter

[Eyes High]

10 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Ned's remains were reduced to the size of a small chest when last we saw them on the show.  Beyond which, there's no dramatic weight to a headless body; nothing about it would be identifiable as Ned, so it really wouldn't work even if his body wasn't down to bones.

If there is a pregnancy reveal (beyond something in an epilogue), my guess would be that it's part of the characters' reconciliation midseason.

My guess is that whatever role Gendry has in the future books is in the capacity of Arya's friend/potential love interest, not as a Baratheon heir.

Random observation:  we still haven't seen Sansa's scaly dress from the Entertainment Weekly cover.  Unless that's an epilogue dress, I'm curious in what capacity that dress would appear now -- whether 803 is a rout (which I still have a hard time seeing working on a narrative level, though God knows this show has run with bad ideas many times) or some sort of stalemate/tactical withdrawal, sewing herself new clothes would seem like a low priority.

Sansa’s scale dress seems awfully fancy for something you’d wear while you’re on the run from killer zombies after the destruction of your ancestral home. (And assuming her BTS interview was in Italica, the dress being concealed by her grey shirt isn’t the scale dress, since the neckline doesn’t peek out.

I feel the same about Tyrion’s EW outfit, with its rich fabrics and Lannister details. They’re running for their lives against a deadly foe, and Tyrion just happens to have this beautiful outfit lying around? 

[Wouter]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa’s scale dress seems awfully fancy for something you’d wear while you’re on the run from killer zombies after the destruction of your ancestral home. (And assuming her BTS interview was in Italica, the dress being concealed by her grey shirt isn’t the scale dress, since the neckline doesn’t peek out.

I feel the same about Tyrion’s EW outfit, with its rich fabrics and Lannister details. They’re running for their lives against a deadly foe, and Tyrion just happens to have this beautiful outfit lying around? 

Sansa could get the dress from Riverrun (Tully clothes?) or the Vale (a gift from Robyn or something like that, also themed on her Tully side), should she go to one of those places.

Tyrion could have left some of his clothes on Dragonstone?

Edited April 23, 2019 by Wouter

[SimoneS]

Can someone post the link to the bts interviews? I can't find it. 

[magdalene]

I find it so hard to believe that they would kill Tyrion.  The show is still following the writing and story by George R R Martin and Tyrion is his favorite character of them all. I think these spoilers are foilers.

[tangerine95]

I think there's still room for Tyrion's betrayal to be real but it's pretty clear he's not already plotting it with Cersei.I could see him betraying the Starks for Dany especially if he believes Jon is a threat to her claim but it would also be a betrayal of her if he does it without her knowledge and approval.There's also still Cersei's baby.They made sure Tyrion knows the pregnancy wasn't a lie,I could see him doing something stupid to protect the baby.

It could also just be that he does something the rest don't agree with in order to win the war against the NK.Friki said Tyrion will trap people in KL,maybe it was something he felt was necessary while Jon and Dany couldn't make that call.But what doesn't fit for me is Friki's info that Tyrion says "they deserve it" or the "I never bet against my family".I can't imagine Tyrion as he was these 2 episodes saying that stuff.I guess there's still a lot to happen tho so we'll see.

Edited April 23, 2019 by tangerine95

[SeanC]

8 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I think there's still room for Tyrion's betrayal to be real but it's pretty clear he's not already plotting it with Cersei.

Yeah, that always came across like Friki's own speculation anyway.  Though I confess I find all of his spoilers about the ending very garbled and difficult to make sense of.  His track record is such that I give him considerable deference, though.

10 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I find it so hard to believe that they would kill Tyrion.  The show is still following the writing and story by George R R Martin and Tyrion is his favorite character of them all.

I wasn't personally predicting that Tyrion would die, but I don't have a problem believing that GRRM would kill his favourite character.  And it is worth remembering that the ur-outline featured a "deadly rivalry" between Tyrion and Jon that, while we don't know what the ending was, doesn't seem all that likely to have gone Tyrion's way to me.  Tons of stuff has changed since the outline (goodbye, Tyrion's obsessive love for Arya), but I think it's worth keeping in mind as to what things are possibilities.

26 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Sansa could get the dress from Riverrun (Tully clothes?) or the Vale (a gift from Robyn or something like that, also themed on her Tully side), should she go to one of those places.

If the intent of the costuming was to convey Sansa as a refugee wearing borrowed/gifted clothes, they wouldn't be such perfect custom-tailored ones as that dress, which has all the usual hallmarks of what Clapton gives Sansa for her own handmade creations.

EDIT:  The mention of the discarded Tyrion/Arya stuff from the outline (unless it hasn't, and her banging Gendry is what sends Tyrion over the edge into betrayal, heh) made me think, in terms of major cast interactions we haven't gotten yet, the two biggest involve Arya -- those being, her with Tyrion and with Dany.

Probably put that down to the fact that Arya's screentime in the first two episodes was mainly about her reuniting with Jon and Gendry.

Edited April 23, 2019 by SeanC

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

She doesn't distrust his motives. She distrusts the motives of the people who told him. From what Emilia says (I linked the EW interview in the book talk episode thread) Daenerys knows that "Jon doesn't even want the throne".

His immediate, utter readiness to believe such slim evidence might strike her amiss. Considering how often cast members have said misleading things, it isn't too farfetched, IMO, that Emilia might say something that Dany ends up doubting.

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

Would be great if Gendry survived. As show-Gendry also has elements of book-Edric Storm, he may end up as a legitimised Baratheon.

But wouldn't a legitmised Baratheon be a threat to whoever ends in the throne? I can't see Dany doing this if she becomes queen, and I can't see whoever is Jon's hand allowing him to do it if he becomes king.

32 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I think there's still room for Tyrion's betrayal to be real but it's pretty clear he's not already plotting it with Cersei.I could see him betraying the Starks for Dany especially if he believes Jon is a threat to her claim but it would also be a betrayal of her if he does it without her knowledge and approval.There's also still Cersei's baby.They made sure Tyrion knows the pregnancy wasn't a lie,I could see him doing something stupid to protect the baby.

I can totally see Tyrion trying to find a way to save Cersei's and her baby's lives, and in doing so getting one of the Starks killed/injured. This would be a betrayal of the Starks, right? I can also see Tyrion not backing up the North independence, which is something that not only Sansa wants, but that I think Jon also wants.

14 minutes ago, screamin said:

His immediate, utter readiness to believe such slim evidence might strike her amiss. Considering how often cast members have said misleading things, it isn't too farfetched, IMO, that Emilia might say something that Dany ends up doubting.

Why would Jon distrust his brother and BFF? They all trust Bran so much that they are planning the attack on NK based on what he says/his visions. Sam has been nothing but a loyal friend. The way I see it, I think Jon utter readiness to believe such slim evidence is because it fits. Why Ned never legitimized him? Why the hurry to send a bastard son to the Wall when the normal thing to would be to keep him around? Why not tell him 'I slept with a whore/paysant girl etc'? He may not have realized that he can fly a freaking dragon, but it all makes sense to him. Also, it also happens that now he is not a bastard. Screw being the heir of the throne, he is not a bastard anymore, he was the result of love. Pretty easy to embrace this. Also  just six episodes.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Raachel2008

[Eyes High]

58 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Sansa could get the dress from Riverrun (Tully clothes?) or the Vale (a gift from Robyn or something like that, also themed on her Tully side), should she go to one of those places.

Tyrion could have left some of his clothes on Dragonstone?

I doubt Tyrion would have a “Look what a Lannister loyalist I am” outfit, with the gold Lannister clasps and gold swirls on black leather of the kind he wore in 3x10, just lying around on Dragonstone...although if one were looking for evidence of Tyrion switching sides, Tyrion’s Tywinesque EW outfit certainly does raise some questions.

I also question whether Sansa would be gifted something in her style that fits her immaculately as a refugee, as @SeanC said.

[screamin]

18 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Why would Jon distrust his brother and BFF? They all trust Bran so much that they are planning the attack on NK based on what he says/his visions. Sam has been nothing but a loyal friend. The way I see it, I think Jon utter readiness to believe such slim evidence is because it fits. Why Ned never legitimized him? Why the hurry to send a bastard son to the Wall when the normal thing to would be to keep him around? Why not tell him 'I slept with a whore/paysant girl etc'? He may not have realized that he can fly a freaking dragon, but it all makes sense to him. Also, just six episodes.

Hey, no need to convince me...but I'm not the one who's put years of her life and lost so much in singleminded pursuit of becoming queen and thus making all the pain (both the pain felt and the pain inflicted) worth it. Dany finding out that ALL of that was in pursuit of a title that wasn't hers by right - might find it too difficult to make herself believe the truth, on the sunk cost fallacy. It might be easier for her to believe that maybe Jon isn't quite the man she thought he was, and become more suspicious of him.

They're still relative strangers, after all. She hasn't watched him all the years we have. And Jon won't be able to reassure her with his love that things haven't changed between them - the fact that she's his aunt will inhibit him, in a way that she won't really get (she was RAISED a Targaryen ready to marry her brother) and possibly exacerbate her suspicions.

I agree that there doesn't seem to be enough time left for much plot to happen - especially with the minute-by-minute pace of the last 2 episodes.

Edited April 23, 2019 by screamin

[Happy Harpy]

33 minutes ago, screamin said:

His immediate, utter readiness to believe such slim evidence might strike her amiss.

"Might" isn't fact. Moreover, the interview wasn't a pre-season hype PR piece, but a post-mortem after the episode aired.

The most interesting is how the show treats the reveal as an identity crisis for both Dany and Jon, as well as a roadblock for star-crossed lovers. The pretext is political, but as far as Dany and Jon themselves as concerned, it's only personal.

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

In the absence of Edric in the show, Gendry may take his potential endgame if the showrunners like that better than whatever ending Gendry may have in the books (which GRRM may not even know yet). Though it could affect Arya's ending too, so maybe not.

In the light of what happened in S5, Edric Storm was imo only a stepping stone on the way for Stannis to burn his own daughter (first, sacrificing a nephew he knew and liked). In the light of what just happened on the show, if Gendry survives his endgame has to be linked to Arya's, so I don't think he'll be given anyone else's. If he survives.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[chrisvee]

2 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

I can totally see Tyrion trying to find a way to save Cersei's and her baby's lives, and in doing so getting one of the Starks killed/injured. This would be a betrayal of the Starks, right?

I think so too esp if Jaime is dead by then.

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Sorry, I meant that FAegon like Edric Storm weren't important enough to appear on the show, so they're very likely to die in the books before the War for the Dawn even begins.

Gendry and Edric Storm are the same character on the show. 

It's a no-brainer to combine the two too.

I don't think Book! Gendry is going to end up as Lord of Storm's End though.

Remember that Gendry worships the Lord of Light not the Seven in the books along with him being an uneducated bumpkin.  Either Edric Storm gets Storm's End or the Baratheon line dies.

Book! Gendry's future seems to be to become House Stark's sperm donor and either marry Arya or die but impregnating her beforehand.

[anamika]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Friki and Javi have been saying things about Tyrion locking the gates so that the KL smallfolk get burned to death, although it's not clear why. Last-ditch attempt to ensure that no smallfolk are added to the AOTD? Revenge on the smallfolk who always hated him and wanted him dead? I mean, if that's the case, that would be a terrible crime...but it's not a betrayal.

Over at Freefolk, EveryfckngChicken points out that Javi was wrong about one of his leaks:

Kaysen mentions that Friki is sure of his leaks because Javi confirmed them, but Javi's leaks are now in doubt. And the fact that Javi was only able to confirm exactly what Friki leaked and did not add anything to it is also suspicious. Friki also twists what happens on the show to fit these leaks - like adding in that the NK visits Castle Black etc. as Kaysen points out:

Quote

It makes what javi has stated a little less reliable, but the big issue here is Friki tried hard to make his information fit with javi. Saying last hearth was castle black and also saying the NK turns up at castle black at the end. Also Friki was confident in his information about the dragonpit because javi confirmed it. There was an issue with friki's info that set off alarm bells making it seem less reliable, but the confidence level rose when javi confirmed it.

Edited April 24, 2019 by anamika

[Eyes High]

48 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

I think so too esp if Jaime is dead by then.

That confirmed extra said something about scenes with Arya, Jaime and the Hound trying to get into the Red Keep, which would be no earlier than 8x05. I guess depending on how it’s shot, “Jaime” could be a facechanged Arya and Jaime could already be dead by that point. On the other hand, if it’s Arya and Jaime simultaneously in the scene, then that suggests that Jaime survives the battle and makes it to KL.

...I don’t know how Brienne would feel about Arya stealing Jaime’s face for revenge on Cersei, but maybe that’s why Gwendoline was so upset with S8. (calling it devastating, warning that some things are not set right, etc.). NCW would probably get a kick out of playing Arya-as-Jaime, though (just as I imagine David Bradley enjoyed playing Arya-as-Walder), with Jaime reconciling with Tyrion, granting Brienne’s fondest wish and dying valiantly fighting the good fight a million miles from Cersei.

27 minutes ago, anamika said:

Over at Freefolk, EveryfckngChicken points out that Javi was wrong about one of his leaks:

Kaysen mentions that Friki is sure of his leaks because Javi confirmed them, but Javi's leaks are now in doubt. And the fact that Javi was only able to confirm exactly what Friki leaked and did not anything to it is also suspicious. Friki also twists what happens on the show to fit these leaks - like adding in that the NK visits Castle Black etc. as Kaysen points out:

As you pointed out upthread, Friki “forgot” about the Bronn 8x01 scene where Qyburn conveys Cersei’s offer for Tyrion and Jaime’s lives, even though he described every other scene, probably because it didn’t match his narrative of Tyrion scheming with Cersei. He remains adamant about the Tyrion trial thing, though, and everything we know about the Dragonpit scene lines up with it being a dialogue-heavy epilogue scene.

One thing that makes me doubt this narrative of Winterfell falling and the survivors fleeing south is that shot from the trailer of Sansa at what is clearly Winterfell during the day (in what looks like the outfit she’ll wear in 8x02/8x03) that was not used in 8x02. It has happened before that shots from trailers don’t wind up in the show, but it’s a rare thing.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Eyes High

[Morrigan2575]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

That confirmed extra said something about scenes with Arya, Jaime and the Hound trying to get into the Red Keep, which would be no earlier than 8x05. I guess depending on how it’s shot, “Jaime” could be a facechanged Arya and Jaime could already be dead by that point.

If Jamie isn't the one to kill Cersei, than I hope Arya gets to scratch another name off her list.

[Eyes High]

4 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

If Jamie isn't the one to kill Cersei, than I hope Arya gets to scratch another name off her list.

The preseason hype teased Arya’s list and Arya killing Cersei a fair bit. Usually, they’re not that obvious, but a few people seem to think that Jaime dies in the big battle (or covering everyone’s escape), and NCW did his BTS interviews in a Red Keep room, so maybe that’s the explanation.

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Why would Jon distrust his brother and BFF? They all trust Bran so much that they are planning the attack on NK based on what he says/his visions. Sam has been nothing but a loyal friend. The way I see it, I think Jon utter readiness to believe such slim evidence is because it fits. Why Ned never legitimized him? Why the hurry to send a bastard son to the Wall when the normal thing to would be to keep him around? Why not tell him 'I slept with a whore/paysant girl etc'? He may not have realized that he can fly a freaking dragon, but it all makes sense to him. Also, it also happens that now he is not a bastard. Screw being the heir of the throne, he is not a bastard anymore, he was the result of love. Pretty easy to embrace this. Also  just six episodes.

2

It fits, because Ned was the most honorable man Jon had ever known, and the one blot on Ned's honor was his alleged infidelity that led to Jon's birth. Believing that Ned lied to protect Jon out of love for his sister and despite the fact that he was betraying his friend and King Robert by harboring Raegar's son, was more in keeping with Ned's character. As Jon told Maester Aemon at the Wall: "He would always do what was right."

[anamika]

31 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

One thing that makes me doubt this narrative of Winterfell falling and the survivors fleeing south is that shot from the trailer of Sansa at what is clearly Winterfell during the day (in what looks like the outfit she’ll wear in 8x02/8x03) that was not used in 8x02. It has happened before that shots from trailers don’t wind up in the show, but it’s a rare thing.

Maybe the others leave Sansa and Bran behind in a damaged Winterfell to rebuild and go off beyond the wall to kill the NK and then onto KL for the final fight. Sophie Turner has not done a whole lot of filming for the latter half. And Bran can just mentally travel to other places. I can't see Bran going south.

Not sure why Sansa is walking around in a fishscale dress at WF though. Considering that we have not seen her in this dress yet, the EW photo shoot basically gave away that Sansa survives episode 3. Dany as well in her suede dress which she is donning in Nutter's episode 4 shoot in Iceland.

7 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

As Jon told Maester Aemon at the Wall: "He would always do what was right."

Sucks that the show could not give Jon 5 minutes to explore the ramifications of the reveal. Like his resurrection. Jon has all these heavy things happen to him, but the show and D&D are not interested in spending time on that. Probably if the character was played by Lena Headey or Peter Dinklage, they would have.

Times like this, I wish that GRRM was still writing the books.

Edited April 24, 2019 by anamika

[Eyes High]

Some 8x03 promotional photos should be out tomorrow, so we’ll get a good sense of who’s where. The 8x02 batch had some good stuff.

I know that the last four episodes are supersized and 20+ minutes longer than the first two, but there is a lot to deal with, and I don’t know how they’re going to fit it all in. Scratch 8x03 (all or mostly battle), 8x05 (all or mostly battle/action), and let’s assume the last half of 8x06 (epilogue), and what is left? About 120 minutes (80 in 8x04 and 40 in 8x06) and that’s really not that much time. We’ve had almost 120 minutes’ worth of episodes already in S8, and not all that much has happened, and unless the cast is severely reduced in 8x03, there are still going to be a lot of characters left to juggle.

17 minutes ago, anamika said:

Maybe the others leave Sansa and Bran behind in a damaged Winterfell to rebuild and go off beyond the wall to kill the NK and then onto KL for the final fight. Sophie Turner has not done a whole lot of filming for the latter half. And Bran can just mentally travel to other places. I can't see Bran going south.

Not sure why Sansa is walking around in a fishscale dress at WF though. Considering that we have not seen her in this dress yet, the EW photo shoot basically gave away that Sansa survives episode 3. Dany as well in her suede dress which she is donning in Nutter's episode 4 shoot in Iceland.

Sucks that the show could not give Jon 5 minutes to explore the ramifications of the reveal. Like his resurrection. Jon has all these heavy things happen to him, but the show and D&D are not interested in spending time on that. Probably if the character was played by Lena Headey or Peter Dinklage, they would have.

Times like this, I wish that GRRM was still writing the books.

Assuming that the living win, it seems likely that Sansa stays behind at Winterfell to rebuild and only makes a last appearance at Tyrion’s trial as a representative of the North (and in the secret Starks/Dany meeting where Tyrion’s treason is outed). It would mean that Sansa would never get a final showdown with Cersei, but it would explain Sophie’s lack of filming time. Maybe if the living win, Sansa will get a nice scene with Dany where she (sincerely, this time) thanks her for her assistance defending the North, and that’s the effective end of her S8 storyline. She stays behind at Winterfell with Bran (and possibly Theon?) and that’s that.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Eyes High

[anamika]

Isaac had this to say about the last 4 episodes:

Quote

I think the first two episodes are the calm before the storm. And what's to follow is quite unprecedented in Game of Thrones world. It's pretty much non-stop. It's brutal, it's terrifying and I honestly think that at one point you are going to experience every single emotion on the spectrum of emotions. There is really nothing I can say to prepare you for it. Just get some tissues and enjoy it.

https://youtu.be/cintkYoZgM

Edit: I am still not sure if this is from Seville:

And I don't think that blouse they are wearing is for covering up costumes. It seems to be something over which they wear costumes. Kit and Gwen had on something similar when photographed by PAP4U for last season:

Edited April 24, 2019 by anamika

[Leila6]

For the fun of it, who do y’all think is gonna die next ep? I think the following are goners:

Theon

Podrick

Beric

Jorah

Tormund

Ghost (But gods I hope not! He hasn’t had quality time with Jon yet.)

Melisandre (?)

Alys Karstark (if they even bother showing her)

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Assuming that the living win, it seems likely that Sansa stays behind at Winterfell to rebuild and only makes a last appearance at Tyrion’s trial as a representative of the North (and in the secret Starks/Dany meeting where Tyrion’s treason is outed). It would mean that Sansa would never get a final showdown with Cersei, but it would explain Sophie’s lack of filming time. Maybe if the living win, Sansa will get a nice scene with Dany where she (sincerely, this time) thanks her for her assistance defending the North, and that’s the effective end of her S8 storyline.

It's hard to know how things are going to play out after 803.  If the Night King is still in play (say, either due to being stalemated or repulsed but not destroyed, which seems to me more likely than being utterly vanquished), for instance, it may not make sense to leave Winterfell still garrisoned while stripping away the dragons, armies, etc. that are necessary to defend it against attack.  The Night King could easily return.  For the same reason, since Bran is the Night King's main target, supposedly, he pretty much has to be mobile and go wherever Jon and Daenerys do, since leaving him as Winterfell is both making him vulnerable and painting a huge target on the whole place.

The show also exhibits a strong preference for keeping characters together even when it may not make a ton of narrative sense.

I think the non-combatants staying behind at Winterfell is a realistic scenario only in a case where the Night King is totally defeated.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Leila6 said:

Beric

I think he makes it till the last episode to take on Lady Stoneheart's role and give the kiss of life to one of our main characters at the end.

I think Tormund and Melisandre (Who probably comes at the end for a rescue) survive episode 3.

Lyanna and Alys are the only known Northern faces - Alys probably dies. I think Bella Ramsay filmed sometime in June - which could imply she is around for the last couple of episodes.

My list:

Pod, Edd, Jorah, Alys, Ghost, Missandei

[ElizaD]

I'm not sure that it makes sense, but I like the theory that 8x03 is only a diversion: the living win, but they never see the NK and realize that he's taking his main army to undefended KL so we get the final battle with dragons in 8x05. There were reports of Golden Company shields at Winterfell, IIRC, but the dead are already at gates so either the company attacks after or not at all.

One thing that could send Tyrion into overdrive protecting the baby is Jaime dying in Brienne's arms in 8x03, but Arya wearing his face would be damn weird and Olenna seemed to foreshadow that he'll have a final confrontation with Cersei. I guess Jaime's arc could be over, with him knighting Brienne after abandoning Cersei and fighting for the living, and there was that one book dream that seemed to suggest Brienne outlives him. But I have no idea, it would be so strange to lose Jaime this early.

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Sorry, I meant that FAegon like Edric Storm weren't important enough to appear on the show, so they're very likely to die in the books before the War for the Dawn even begins.

Gendry and Edric Storm are the same character on the show. 

It's a no-brainer to combine the two too.

I don't think Book! Gendry is going to end up as Lord of Storm's End though.

Remember that Gendry worships the Lord of Light not the Seven in the books along with him being an uneducated bumpkin.  Either Edric Storm gets Storm's End or the Baratheon line dies.

Book! Gendry's future seems to be to become House Stark's sperm donor and either marry Arya or die but impregnating her beforehand.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

BSB claimed, that the double for Sansa was filming in Spain. I do think that points towards Sansa having a bigger role in the final episodes than just shooting for the epilogue, if the spoiler isn't a fleak.

3 hours ago, anamika said:

My list:

Pod, Edd, Jorah, Alys, Ghost, Missandei

Add (sadly) Theon to this list, and I probably agree.

[Bannon]

4 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I'm not sure that it makes sense, but I like the theory that 8x03 is only a diversion: the living win, but they never see the NK and realize that he's taking his main army to undefended KL so we get the final battle with dragons in 8x05. There were reports of Golden Company shields at Winterfell, IIRC, but the dead are already at gates so either the company attacks after or not at all.

One thing that could send Tyrion into overdrive protecting the baby is Jaime dying in Brienne's arms in 8x03, but Arya wearing his face would be damn weird and Olenna seemed to foreshadow that he'll have a final confrontation with Cersei. I guess Jaime's arc could be over, with him knighting Brienne after abandoning Cersei and fighting for the living, and there was that one book dream that seemed to suggest Brienne outlives him. But I have no idea, it would be so strange to lose Jaime this early.

That's the 1st theory I've read that makes any military sense, with regard to how the NK could survive, and any of the living, who didn't fly on the back of a dragon, could get back to KL to fight yet another battle. It also plays into a consistent military theme of the show, of military leaders being surprised when the enemy doesn't attack with his main force in the expected location.

However, the previews last Sunday certainly strongly suggested the zombie dragon is involved in the attack on Winterfell. We'll see. Hope they write it competently.

[bubble sparkly]

So after the first few episodes I have seen people looking back over some of the recent cast interviews to try and see what is still to come.  A couple of interesting ones for me are:

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: What can you tell us about Sansa’s storyline this season?
SOPHIE TURNER: Sansa this season is very much enjoying becoming a leader in her own right and the leader of Winterfell, and this year there are certain challenges of people who come into her life that threaten that. She has to go behind a few backs and risks tearing apart her family.

Now, Sophie is a notorious troll so she could just be exaggerating for dramatic effect, but I am curious about "going behind backs and risks tearing her family apart".  I wouldn't say any of Sansa's actions in the first 2 episodes fit this quote, unless she was exaggerating the Sansa/Dany stuff and perhaps classifying their convo in ep 2 as going behind Jon's back to ask for Northern independence.  If ST was referring to something still to come, the only thing I can think of is if she goes behind Jon's back (maybe with Sam?) to try and get support for his claim to the throne.  Although Sansa has seemed pretty keen not to stick her neck out for Southern politics stuff recently.

“The whole show is just a discussion on power,” Clarke tells me in an interview at the Mandarin Oriental before the premiere at Radio City Music Hall. “Because the Iron Throne is representative of complete and consuming power and what that does to someone. It’s fascinating, what I’ve found about the sacrifices that you make and what you get out of it as a result. Ultimately, if you get on the throne, what are you really getting? Cersei proves that you’re not getting that much,” Clarke says. “You’re getting a lot of loneliness, pain, critiques.”

I think this may support the idea that Dany will ultimately give up her claim to the throne (and probably destroy the throne in a symbolic gesture). Whether it means Jon/Dany co-ruling, a more democratic style ruling council, or Jon and Dany peacing out to the waterfall, I don't know.  I do get the feeling that we definitely won't end up with one singular ruler at the end though.

Edited April 24, 2019 by bubble sparkly

[anamika]

So over at FF, folks have unearthed an interview with a Polish actor, where he revealed:

Quote

I know for sure that key scenes were shot in different versions. For example, I will say that three scenes were created: in which Jaime dies, he is wounded and one in which nothing happens to him. Nikolaj does not know himself which version was taken to the series.

Discussed here by Ksnumbers:

I think Watchersonmyballs leaks about Jaime dying in Brienne's arms at the WF battle resulted from these fake scenes.

Interesting how they shot these different scenes - maybe to prevent extras from leaking?

Isaac in this video is also in Seville:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeoTwXot9Es&feature=youtu.be

They must have spread out all these actors over the whole of Italica because there is a different background for each of them lol.

Edited April 24, 2019 by anamika

[SimoneS]

It is too easy to come to conclusions on the flimsiest evidence. Nothing that person used as supposed evidence means that Jaime survives the story. We know from the recent leak from that verified extra on Reddit that Jaime, Arya, and the Hound are at KL trying to get into the Red Keep in episode 5 or 6. So all we know for sure is that he makes through the battle of Winterfell which makes sense because of the false prophecies on the show, Cersei's the only one that has been slowly being fulfilled. Jaime is likely the brother who will kill her so he won't die until after he does, if he is going to die.

It occurs to me that it is odd that the Melisandre and the Golden Company arrive at Winterfell and somehow don't see either other.

One of Friki's leaks has been proven to be false, now we'll see if BSB's leak about the GC is correct.

Edited April 24, 2019 by SimoneS

[BadAssRobinArryn]

I easily believe that key scenes were shot in different versions so that the extras don't know exactly what will happen. But what I don't believe one moment is this:

Nikolaj does not know himself which version was taken to the series.

The rumoured death scene in Brienne's arms should have happened in episode 4. I'm sure Nikolaj Coster-Waldau knew very well, if he shot for episode 5 and 6 or if he didn't.

[Eyes High]

I'm far from the only one to notice this, but I was struck on rewatching 8x02 just how many times we were reminded that the crypts were safe:

Davos: When the time comes, you'll be down in the crypts. They're the safest place to be.

Jon: We'll put you in the crypt, where it's safest.

Sam: [Gilly and Little Sam] will be safe down in the crypt.

Jorah (to Lyanna): You'll be safer in the crypt.

Gendry to Arya: It's going to be safer down in the crypt, you know.

Gee, it's almost as if the writers want us to think the crypts will be safe or something.

Who all is on the crypts roster? We know Varys, Gilly, and Little Sam for sure (from the S8 trailer). Missandei will likely join them. Tyrion was ordered down there by Dany, but it looked like he was fighting on the battlements in a brief shot of Brienne in the S8 trailer. Sansa was on the battlements in the 8x02 promo with Arya, so I dunno what her plan is.

Varys has had virtually no lines in the first two episodes, so I expect he'll have something to do at least in 8x03. If Varys summarily dies in 8x03 after doing and saying nothing for the first two episodes, that might account for Conleth Hill's sour expression when a reporter asked them if they were happy with the ending.

The official HBO Twitter account, which is obviously run by someone with a sense of humour, also retweeted this:

Edited April 24, 2019 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

12 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I'm far from the only one to notice this, but I was struck on rewatching 8x02 just how many times we were reminded that the crypts were safe:

Davos: When the time comes, you'll be down in the crypts. They're the safest place to be.

Jon: We'll put you in the crypt, where it's safest.

Sam: [Gilly and Little Sam] will be safe down in the crypt.

Jorah (to Lyanna): You'll be safer in the crypt.

Gendry to Arya: It's going to be safer down in the crypt, you know.

Gee, it's almost as if the writers want us to think the crypts will be safe or something.

Who all is on the crypts roster? We know Varys, Gilly, and Little Sam for sure (from the S8 trailer). Missandei will likely join them. Tyrion was ordered down there by Dany, but it looked like he was fighting on the battlements in a brief shot of Brienne in the S8 trailer. Sansa was on the battlements in the 8x02 promo with Arya, so I dunno what her plan is.

The official HBO Twitter account, which is obviously run by someone with a sense of humour, also retweeted this:

It’s conceivable that some wights might get into the crypts, but I really, really hope the show doesn’t do the “Night King brings the buried to life” twist that so many are predicting, because that would make all the characters on the show unforgivably stupid.

[screamin]

13 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

It fits, because Ned was the most honorable man Jon had ever known, and the one blot on Ned's honor was his alleged infidelity that led to Jon's birth. Believing that Ned lied to protect Jon out of love for his sister and despite the fact that he was betraying his friend and King Robert by harboring Raegar's son, was more in keeping with Ned's character. As Jon told Maester Aemon at the Wall: "He would always do what was right."

I completely agree - but Danaerys has no reason to know any of that. We saw Jon and Ned's interactions, heard about their history, saw Ned in action. Dany's only known Jon a very little while, and it's unlikely he would've regurgitated his and Ned's whole life story at her, any more than she would've told him everything about her childhood with Viserys and Viserys' biography by now - because such lengthy unburdenings of intimate traumatic material aren't suitable for either getting to know a fellow monarch or for the first ecstatic weeks of falling in love.

We know that Jon believes Bran and Sam because they are trustworthy - we know them as well as we know Jon - and because their story fits in perfectly with all the questions of his life as he and we experienced them. But to Dany, Bran and Sam are both strangers with a story with almost no proof and with obvious ulterior motives. Since she has an understandable bias toward believing that she IS the queen, having expended so much effort toward that end, she's IMO more likely to believe that Jon is being manipulated by an ambitious brother and a vengeful BFF and is too willing to fall for such manipulation, or even to believe that Jon might knowingly be lending himself to it (though she'd likely find it not credible that Jon could lie so convincingly).

We see some of that with their last scene together. Jon tells her the truth, IMO, because he knows he's been behaving differently toward her and he wants to explain to her WHY his attitude has changed and why he's not behaving as romantically toward her as she might expect him to on their last night on earth. This explanation does not occur to Dany at all - she runs straight to the implication that Jon is the rightful king if Bran's story is true. And when she says so, he looks shocked and taken aback that she's worrying about that, as if he hadn't foreseen it at all. They're on different pages about this.

[screamin]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

It’s conceivable that some wights might get into the crypts, but I really, really hope the show doesn’t do the “Night King brings the buried to life” twist that so many are predicting, because that would make all the characters on the show unforgivably stupid.

I just can't believe that the long dead in the crypt are in good enough shape to push off the heavy slabs weighing them down and start killing people - they must be nothing but bones by now. IIRC, even Ned arrived in a box much too small for anything BUT bones. And we haven't seen any walking dead without at least SOME muscle to move them.

I agree that it would be horribly annoying if there were a sudden re-enactment of Michael Jackson's "Thriller" video in the crypt during the battle.

[Eyes High]

16 minutes ago, SeanC said:

It’s conceivable that some wights might get into the crypts, but I really, really hope the show doesn’t do the “Night King brings the buried to life” twist that so many are predicting, because that would make all the characters on the show unforgivably stupid.

I agree. You have Bran, Sam, Tyrion, and people like Jon and Tormund who watched the NK raise the dead firsthand in the same room, and this never occurs to any of them? I hope that if there is a wight attack on the crypts, it's that the other wights pen them in and go to town, as that seems more plausible.

There's no filming information suggesting that Varys, Little Sam, Gilly, and Missandei make it past 8x03, so any of those characters could be potentially killed off as far as I'm concerned. If there is a crypts massacre, maybe Tyrion defies Dany to fight alongside his brother--although that one shot of him in the 8x03 promo looks like it's in the crypts--and Sansa decides to stay with her sister.

I'm curious about Sansa's line "The most heroic thing we can do now is look the truth in the face," which as delivered by Sophie Turner sounds very grim and defeated. Is she talking about accepting their imminent death? Accepting defeat and abandoning Winterfell to the WWs?

Quote

I agree that it would be horribly annoying if there were a sudden re-enactment of Michael Jackson's "Thriller" video in the crypt during the battle.

What apocalyptic battle royale is complete without a kicky dance number?

Edited April 24, 2019 by Eyes High

[MarySNJ]

3 minutes ago, screamin said:

I completely agree - but Danaerys has no reason to know any of that. We saw Jon and Ned's interactions, heard about their history, saw Ned in action. Dany's only known Jon a very little while, and it's unlikely he would've regurgitated his and Ned's whole life story at her, any more than she would've told him everything about her childhood with Viserys and Viserys' biography by now - because such lengthy unburdenings of intimate traumatic material aren't suitable for either getting to know a fellow monarch or for the first ecstatic weeks of falling in love.

We know that Jon believes Bran and Sam because they are trustworthy - we know them as well as we know Jon - and because their story fits in perfectly with all the questions of his life as he and we experienced them. But to Dany, Bran and Sam are both strangers with a story with almost no proof and with obvious ulterior motives. Since she has an understandable bias toward believing that she IS the queen, having expended so much effort toward that end, she's IMO more likely to believe that Jon is being manipulated by an ambitious brother and a vengeful BFF and is too willing to fall for such manipulation, or even to believe that Jon might knowingly be lending himself to it (though she'd likely find it not credible that Jon could lie so convincingly).

We see some of that with their last scene together. Jon tells her the truth, IMO, because he knows he's been behaving differently toward her and he wants to explain to her WHY his attitude has changed and why he's not behaving as romantically toward her as she might expect him to on their last night on earth. This explanation does not occur to Dany at all - she runs straight to the implication that Jon is the rightful king if Bran's story is true. And when she says so, he looks shocked and taken aback that she's worrying about that, as if he hadn't foreseen it at all. They're on different pages about this.

Right, and the actors have said as much. Daenerys has been focused on taking back the Iron Throne, thinking that she’s the last Targaryen, and now she and Jon both find out that she’s not. It’s a shock for both of them and they don’t really have time to talk about it will mean for them because they immediately have to deal with the urgent threat. 

We don’t know how much of their life stories they shared on the boat from Dragonstone or the road trip to Winterfell from White Harbor, but Jon has proven to be trustworthy to Dany. However, I agree that Dany has reason the be skeptical about Bran’s visions and Sam’s motivations. I’m sure there will be some tension as they try to figure out what it all means after the imminent threat is dealt with. 

In re: the question of Ned’s (and Jon’s) honor, when Jon exclaimed that he had bent the knee to Daenerys when Cersei demanded that the KitN remain in the North, I think that he made it pretty clear that he was not going to lie or try to actively manipulate Dany. He even says at the time “...tell me that that [honor] is what got my father killed...” He’s been completely honest with her about everything up to this point, and even Cersei has said “I know that Ned Stark’s son will be true to his word...” by implication, Ned and Jon have a reputation for being honorable to a fault.