Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[bubble sparkly]

I don’t see how getting killed by dragonfire is a “worse” death the methods we have seen our other heroes use. We have seen various Starks use decapitation, hanging, eaten alive by dogs, poison, stabbing etc. They have shown that dragonfire kills people very quickly onscreen, and it seems to take a similar amount of time to kill someone as the socially accepted hanging and decapitation methods.

I’m sure death by dragonfire is not fun, but it’s not like death by dogs, poison or decapitation is a painless death.

[nikma]

Bronn may even tell him that she is fucking with Euron lol. I mean, I suppose there will be some rumors about that in KL. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by nikma

[Eyes High]

6 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I mean eventually during the season. Bronn has never had any illusions about Cersei. He must know that he has to "accept" her offer or risk death. Besides, I don't see Bronn sticking around to fight for Cersei. He will encounter the Lannister brothers at some point.

The Russian subtitles on the trailer had Jaime yelling "BRONN." Since Team Stargaryen (including Jaime) seems to head to KL eventually, and since Jerome and Lena cannot share scenes by contract, I'm guessing Winterfell will be where Bronn checks out, and it will be redemptively heroic because Bronn will die fighting solely for a good cause and for the problematic Lannister brothers he cares about and not for any reward...And now I'm sad.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Eyes High

[nikma]

targaryen restoration confirmed. Look at Weiss' shoes. lol

[Colorful Mess]

Jon was their commander, they mutinied and killed him. Most importantly, they were at the Wall, where there is no chance to send someone sentenced to death to the Wall instead. It is the last stop for people. That is why prisoners of war like the Tarlys might be sent to the Wall, but for a mutineer like Olly in the NW it is death. Slynt was in a similar situation. There was a chain of command established and he defied it - multiple times actually. Dany isnt the "commander" or even the ruler of those prisoners. Jon also didnt execute Slynt to in his quest for the throne, he did it at the Wall, where their overarching job is to defend the realm and its people, not take thrones by conquest.

Then there is the method of execution, which is mentioned by Asha in the books as THE WORST way to be executed. They dont have long drawn-out disembowelings in Westeros. The only thing that compares to that horrific style of execution is being burned alive or Dany crucifying the masters. She's consistently been shown to be cruel in her methods. Sam is going to call out unnecessary cruelty when he sees it.

[tangerine95]

7 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I don’t see how getting killed by dragonfire is a “worse” death the methods we have seen our other heroes use. We have seen various Starks use decapitation, hanging, eaten alive by dogs, poison, stabbing etc. They have shown that dragonfire kills people very quickly onscreen, and it seems to take a similar amount of time to kill someone as the socially accepted hanging and decapitation methods.

I’m sure death by dragonfire is not fun, but it’s not like death by dogs, poison or decapitation is a painless death.

Yeah I don't think it's worse than anything we've seen others use.I guess the problem is people who connect it to the mad king and it's bad PR for Dany apparently lol.But any Targ who had a dragon used it to deal with enemies.Aegon the conqueror especially and he's considered a great man in Westeros.

I honestly don't believe the dragonfire is the problem.If she let the Dothraki cut of their heads the reaction from the characters in the show and the audience out of it would have been the same imo.

Edited April 4, 2019 by tangerine95

[anamika]

9 minutes ago, nikma said:

 Why should they change something that brings them success? 

That's true. For the most it's just a few folks like me whinging about the writing on forums. The show is popular for a reason.

I remember Nutter talking about fanservice moments in his episodes - can anyone think of moments put in episode one for the fans....Maybe Jon randomly riding Rhaegal right off the bat.

[Minneapple]

14 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I don’t see how getting killed by dragonfire is a “worse” death the methods we have seen our other heroes use. We have seen various Starks use decapitation, hanging, eaten alive by dogs, poison, stabbing etc. They have shown that dragonfire kills people very quickly onscreen, and it seems to take a similar amount of time to kill someone as the socially accepted hanging and decapitation methods.

I’m sure death by dragonfire is not fun, but it’s not like death by dogs, poison or decapitation is a painless death.

Being burned alive is possibly like the worst death ever. At the very least it brings to people's minds Rickard Stark. I don't think Mad King parallels are what Dany wants when she talks about breaking the wheel.

Decapitation (severing the jugular) is actually a fairly humane death because it's the fastest way to kill a living thing. 

As for Ramsey being eaten by his dogs, the guy raped and tortured Sansa. I wouldn't have blamed her if she had chosen a more painful death for him.

[onyxrose81]

These episode details leave me...whelmed.  I'm not going to bang my head against the wall with any of it.   I don't think the Tarly thing merits the time spent on it but obviously D&D.  I'm also not going to try and convince people that Dany isn't the Mad King reincarnated by using dragons.  Bad optics but dragons are her weapons.  A ruler learns and makes mistakes.  No one had any problem with Sansa feeding Ramsay to the dogs.  He was an psycopath BUT that was barbaric. It was understandable and I was rooting for it but you hear crickets.  But it's different because it's Sansa. If Jon, Sam or anyone else didn't have a problem with that they shouldn't have a problem with Daenerys killing the Tarlys instantaneously with wildfire.  It's hypocrisy but I'm done trying to convince others it is.  

Edited April 4, 2019 by onyxrose81

[Hana Chan]

31 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

All these arguments attempting making that Dany's actions are different than Jon's are rooted in gender stereotypes.

I don't buy this at all. There are very clear reasons why Dany's actions can and are being viewed in a negative light and it has nothing to do with her gender. Her father also summarily executed people by burning them alive and that got him a sword stuck in his back. Ramsey Bolton liked to feed people alive to his dogs and that got him some face time with one of his own starving hounds. An atrocity is an atrocity, no matter who commits it.

The Tarlys were unarmed prisoners and as I showed before, they were not executed for their real crimes (betraying the Tyrells and helping to destroy what was left of their house). They were executed for not accepting Dany as queen. Dany could have shown her strength as a "ruler" in a lot of ways, but using her dragon to burn two men alive was a damn poor way. Sure, it proves that she will do everything in order to win the throne that she believes is hers by right of bloodline (and is she in for a surprise shortly), but all it does is remind all of Westeros that she is the daughter of Aerys the Mad King. 

[Eyes High]

Dave Hill wrote this episode, and a lot had to happen, so I wasn't expecting anything great dialogue-wise. 8x02, written by Bryan Cogman (a much stronger writer than Hill in my opinion) and which should pump the brakes a little in terms of pacing, should be much better. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by Eyes High

[YaddaYadda]

15 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I just don't get this at all. Dany does her own killing also. The dragons and their fire as well as her ability to control fire are her sword. 

I honestly don't care whether she used her dragons or not. She could use them to make s'mores for all I care. I think the issue is that she used the dragon once the battle was done. When she set fire to the slaver ships in 6x09, Grey Worm was the one who executed the two slavers. I think that's the difference between the two moments. 

The whole thing with the Tarlys was 100% trash writing anyway. And with Ollie too, since I see his name being brought up. I don't think Ollie had even taken Night's Watch vows, but Jon made him his steward anyway. Heck, maybe Jon felt some vindication killing him since he was the one who shot the arrow that killed Ygritte (actually, I don't know if that's true).

And if I read the spoilers from the episode correctly, Sam doesn't seem to have a problem with his father's death or the way he died. His problem is Dickon's death, full stop.

I think he would have reacted the exact same way if Dany had had him beheaded instead of burned. He hated his father, but he loved his brother who was a total douchebag when we saw him at Horn Hill.

[anamika]

1. There is a difference between how Stannis burns people and dragonfire where people turn to ashes in seconds. This is clearly evident with Shireen, Mance and Jaime watching his soldiers become ashes in mere seconds before they can move out of the way.

2. The crime does not decide how brutally a man should be executed if we are judging by modern standards. If we are not judging by modern standards, then we should not be criticizing Dany for how she executed her prisoners.

By the way, Randyl Tarly was an abusive asshole to Sam, had him chained and starved and threatened to have him killed if he did not go to the wall - where Randyl thought he would die.

5 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I think he would have reacted the exact same way if Dany had had him beheaded instead of burned. He hated his father, but he loved his brother who was a total douchebag when we saw him at Horn Hill.

Yeah, it could be that Sam is momentarily emotional about Dickon.

He may put it aside - if Davos can put aside the death of a beloved son and work with Tyrion,  Sam could do the same for the greater good. Is that not what this is about - putting aside enmities and working together - as Jon told the Wildlings 3 seasons ago at Hardhome. 

Now is not the time to discuss who should be king/Queen.

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-1

GQ's take on the premiere:

Quote

3. The pace is increasing
The pace is near-relentless. There’s no time for any fillers – it’s straight for the narrative jugular throughout.

4. Length isn’t everything
On this evidence, rumours of six feature-length episodes were sadly wide of the mark. This one came in at an entirely normal Thrones length of just under an hour.

5. This could be the funniest episode in the history of Thrones
Another bold claim, but this is a genuinely humorous episode, with a number of unexpected, laugh-out-loud moments. They begin with the very first line and continue through a series of running jokes ranging from elephants and dragons to onions and testicles.

6. There aren’t enough lines to go around
Some previously big names have little or nothing to say; there just aren’t enough lines to go around. George RR Martin has teased that this final season will be “bittersweet” and those two factors surely bode ill for the suddenly muted. For readers of a betting disposition, Varys has to be high on the death list now, closely followed by Missandei, Grey Worm, Podrick and – whisper it – Tyrion?

8. Even with an undead army approaching, there’s always time for sex in Westeros
Guest star Ian McShane famously said the show’s defining characteristics were “tits and dragons”. The predictable news for purists is that both make multiple appearances in episode one. Without getting too deep into spoiler territory, let’s just say the former are more numerous than the latter.

Looks like the media has started teasing Tyrion's death...

Edited April 4, 2019 by anamika

[Minneapple]

3 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

And if I read the spoilers from the episode correctly, Sam doesn't seem to have a problem with his father's death or the way he died. His problem is Dickon's death, full stop.

It sounds like he gets a little emotional over his father (even if his dad was an ass, that leaves his mother as a widow) but can deal with it.

The Freefolk poster noted that the Sam/Dany scene is the best one in the first episode.

[Eyes High]

10 minutes ago, anamika said:

GQ's take on the premiere:

Looks like the media has started teasing Tyrion's death...

I noticed that, and I agree with Pod and Varys being high on the death list, although the stated rationale--the characters with little dialogue are going to die--is strange. Usually, it's the characters who suddenly come into focus who are imminently going to die, to remind the audience of their significance and to make their deaths more meaningful. I noticed a lot of Jorah/Dany scenes from the stills that have been released, and if you think Jorah's going to survive that 8x03 battle, well, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

The weird thing is that Friki swore up and down that he saw nothing in the 8x01 spoilers he received to sway his belief that Cersei and Tyrion reached a secret backroom deal in 7x07 and that Tyrion is lying to everyone, while omitting the part where Bronn is offered a contract on Jaime and Tyrion's life from Cersei. Maybe Mr_Freeload got it wrong about the contract on Tyrion's life, but that seems like a strange omission, and it's not consistent with the narrative that Tyrion and Cersei are working together and made a clandestine deal to sell out Jon and Dany.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Eyes High

[YaddaYadda]

4 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

It sounds like he gets a little emotional over his father (even if his dad was an ass, that leaves his mother as a widow) but can deal with it.

The Freefolk poster noted that the Sam/Dany scene is the best one in the first episode.

Thank you for the clarification.

And I'm sure his mother will be just fine with her asshole husband's death. No one needs that sort of abuse.

[SimoneS]

Quote

6. There aren’t enough lines to go around

Some previously big names have little or nothing to say; there just aren’t enough lines to go around.

I can believe this. All those cast members in the same place means that quite a few people just have to stand there and pretend to be interested/concerned/bewildered in large group scenes. Once they break up into small groups after the attack, this should improve, but I remember Varys had almost no dialogue for several episodes last season. 

Quote

George RR Martin has teased that this final season will be “bittersweet” and those two factors surely bode ill for the suddenly muted. For readers of a betting disposition, Varys has to be high on the death list now, closely followed by Missandei, Grey Worm, Podrick and – whisper it – Tyrion?

So many people are going to die, I don't get why these were singled out. Maybe the writer does think that two Black actors are sure to bite the dust. I am not convinced.

[YaddaYadda]

8 minutes ago, anamika said:

By the way, Randyl Tarly was an abusive asshole to Sam, had him chained and starved and threatened to have him killed if he did not go to the wall - where Randyl thought he would die.

did they ever bring this up in the show? I mean I remember reading it and being horrified and Sam not wanting to become a maester because of what his father did to him when he went to him and told him he wanted to go to the Citadel.

[anamika]

It's funny though that as we near the premiere the actors get constantly asked about who they think should be on the Iron throne/who they want on the Iron Throne, and no one ever mentions Jon/Dany. Ever. Not once. We got lots of Sansa, then Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Sam, Davos, Drogon, Ghost, Dragons. But no one wants or thinks Jon or Dany should be on the Iron throne?

The sudden effusive praise that Sansa is getting and a lot of the actors pointing to her as best/strongest/should be queen character tells me that Sansa is either getting a really good storyline next season that sees her at the top or the show is giving the character a very good sendoff.

5 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

did they ever bring this up in the show? I mean I remember reading it and being horrified and Sam not wanting to become a maester because of what his father did to him when he went to him and told him he wanted to go to the Citadel.

They touched on this in season one when Sam tells Jon his backstory. John Bradley really dislikes Randyll - he keeps mentioning in interviews that if there is any character he would like to see dead, it's Randyll - especially after last season where the xenophobic Randyll treats Gilly pretty badly and Sam has enough and leaves.

Edited April 4, 2019 by anamika

[SimoneS]

7 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

 I noticed a lot of Jorah/Dany scenes from the stills that have been released, and if you think Jorah's going to survive that 8x03 battle, well, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

I can see Jorah making it to the KL's battle and dying there. They have to split the deaths between the two battles.

1 minute ago, anamika said:

It's funny though that as we near the premiere the actors get constantly asked about who they think should be on the Iron throne/who they want on the Iron Throne, and no one ever mentions Jon/Dany. Ever. Not once. We got lots of Sansa, then Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Sam, Davos, Drogon, Ghost, Dragons. But no one wants or thinks Jon or Dany should be on the Iron throne?

That is odd and revealing, isn't it. Iain Glenn is the only one of the whole cast who has said that he is rooting for Dany to sit on the Iron Throne.

Edited April 4, 2019 by SimoneS

[cambridgeguy]

24 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I don’t see how getting killed by dragonfire is a “worse” death the methods we have seen our other heroes use. We have seen various Starks use decapitation, hanging, eaten alive by dogs, poison, stabbing etc. They have shown that dragonfire kills people very quickly onscreen, and it seems to take a similar amount of time to kill someone as the socially accepted hanging and decapitation methods.

I’m sure death by dragonfire is not fun, but it’s not like death by dogs, poison or decapitation is a painless death.

Well, I suppose it's not like you can ask the victims how it felt.  But "socially accepted" is the key term there.  It's clear that even a direct blast from dragonfire is not an instant death - we saw and heard Randyll and Dickon moving around and screaming for a couple of seconds.  Is that worse than having your head chopped off?  How about hanging there for a few seconds?  Who knows, but in Westeros society it is considered cruel and unusual punishment.  It's the same thing in today's world - people who are pro death penalty are OK with a lethal injection but might not be OK with a hanging/firing squad/etc.  It doesn't matter if it's right or not, people will judge you if you decide to use what is viewed as a horrific method. 

Quote

No one had any problem with Sansa feeding Ramsay to the dogs.  He was an psycopath BUT that was barbaric. It was understandable and I was rooting for it but you hear crickets.  But it's different because it's Sansa.

It's different because Ramsey repeatedly tortured and raped Sansa.  Randyll was a grade A jackass, especially to Sam, but to Dany he was a defiant enemy commander, nothing more.  One who happened to fight against Robert during the rebellion too.  Cruel and unusual seems to be OK when it comes to extreme personal vendettas for the Starks (see Arya and her pies) but other than that there are unwritten rules to follow.  Littlefinger is lucky Arya just slit his throat instead of chopping off body parts one piece at a time.

[Eyes High]

26 minutes ago, anamika said:

It's funny though that as we near the premiere the actors get constantly asked about who they think should be on the Iron throne/who they want on the Iron Throne, and no one ever mentions Jon/Dany. Ever. Not once. We got lots of Sansa, then Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Sam, Davos, Drogon, Ghost, Dragons. But no one wants or thinks Jon or Dany should be on the Iron throne?

I agree. Very curious.

Quote

The sudden effusive praise that Sansa is getting and a lot of the actors pointing to her as best/strongest/should be queen character tells me that Sansa is either getting a really good storyline next season that sees her at the top or the show is giving the character a very good sendoff.

Well, if she's not queen, she can't really be at the top of the show unless there's some sort of ruling council situation that Sansa is effectively running, and Isaac and other actors talking about how Sansa should be queen seems to be a strong indication that that is not going to happen. 

Sophie seems happy enough with Sansa's ending to display her final scene in her home, and if it's good enough for Sophie, I think it will be a very good sendoff for the character. My money's still on Sansa ending up as the single Lady of Winterfell, which seems like a nice full circle from a young Sansa telling Catelyn in the pilot that heading south to marry Joffrey "is the only thing I've ever wanted." Sophie also described the way the audience sees Sansa running Winterfell in 8x01 as Sansa embracing her destiny, which may have been a bit of an unintentional slip giving away her endgame as well.

It does kind of beg the question as to what Sansa's arc will be in Season 8 if she's already reached the position she will hold at the end of the show. This initial distrust of Daenerys is thin gruel for an entire season. Maybe she'll be instrumental in sussing out Tyrion's betrayal, but that's all I have. 

BSB speculated (not a leak, to be clear) that the survivors would split up after the battle of Winterfell and head to Dragonstone, the Riverlands, and the Vale. That would explain how Robin and Edmure might reenter the picture, particularly since they are absent from 8x01 (and, in Edmure's case, since Jaime makes it to Winterfell without stopping first in the Riverlands). 

It's interesting to see the potential threads in 8x01 setting up the season, aside from the obvious Sam/Dany, Sansa/Dany and Jon/Dany drama that's brewing:

1. Another message from the WWs as in 1x01

2. Gendry/Arya banter: endgame or setting up Gendry's death in 8x03?

3. Theon rescuing Yara heading north to help Team Stargaryen and I assume die at Winterfell in 8x03

4. Bran/Jaime resolution

5. Bronn also heading north, either to kill Tyrion and Jaime or to help them before he perishes in 8x03

Edited April 4, 2019 by Eyes High

[nikma]

37 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Dave Hill wrote this episode, and a lot had to happen, so I wasn't expecting anything great dialogue-wise. 8x02, written by Bryan Cogman (a much stronger writer than Hill in my opinion) and which should pump the brakes a little in terms of pacing, should be much better. 

I think they always give Dave Hill these short episodes where a lot of things need to happen. Like Eastwatch, or Home(Jon coming back, Roose's death, Tyrion with dragons,..), or Sons of the Harpy(where he needed to establish both FM and SOTH)

So I think Dave Hill never really had a chance. But he is really economic writer(he has to be lol), doing a lot in a really short time. 

[nikma]

23 minutes ago, anamika said:

It's funny though that as we near the premiere the actors get constantly asked about who they think should be on the Iron throne/who they want on the Iron Throne, and no one ever mentions Jon/Dany.

Because that's what's going to happen lol

[anamika]

So the credits. Looks like Sophie and Maisie have jumped ahead of Liam and are now right behind Kit in the credits. It's Emilia, Kit, Sophie and Maisie.

Isaac is still in the same place behind Liam, Nathalie and along with Alfie and John.

The new animation for the credits also seem to be moving much faster - maybe to indicate the faster pace of the show.

Kit still with the direwolf I see. Maybe it changes next episode now that Jon's been informed. Or maybe after he formally accepts his parentage on the show.

32 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Gendry/Arya banter: endgame or setting up Gendry's death in 8x03?

Looks like the show is investing in this ship - Friki mentioned sexual tension and now Mr.Freeload. 

Could be Arya and Gendry produce the next generation of Starks. Bastard born Gendry could take the Stark name.

Only issue is that the seed is strong and all the baby Starks are going to come out looking like Bobby B instead of the Ned and lose the traditional long horsey faces of the Starks.

Edited April 4, 2019 by anamika

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Edith said:

What, if Tyrion made a deal with Cersei, then why is she sending Bronn to kill him?

I don't understand, I know Cersei is dumb but this makes no sense..

All it does is add Jaime to her enemies list, but with Tyrion she always wanted him dead, so she plays him, then betrays him; hence Sansa's snark to him.

Sansa's going to be correct about Cersei, now the question is does she, Jon or someone else pay with their life because of Tyrion.

I really want to see the scroll letter : )

[SeanC]

50 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

So many people are going to die, I don't get why these were singled out. Maybe the writer does think that two Black actors are sure to bite the dust. I am not convinced.

Might be that they’re assuming relatively minor characters who don’t really have their own storyline are easy grist for the mill — conversely, that’s actually why I think Missandei, at least, is more likely than not to survive.  Grey Worm is a combatant, so he could obviously die in any number of scenarios that would feel appropriate.

48 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I can see Jorah making it to the KL's battle and dying there. They have to split the deaths between the two battles.

That’s precisely why I think Jorah is going to die at Winterfell.  That battle needs at least one big name casualty, and we know almost everybody else makes it to the finale.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, onyxrose81 said:

These episode details leave me...whelmed.  I'm not going to bang my head against the wall with any of it.   I don't think the Tarly thing merits the time spent on it but obviously D&D.  I'm also not going to try and convince people that Dany isn't the Mad King reincarnated by using dragons.  Bad optics but dragons are her weapons.  A ruler learns and makes mistakes.  No one had any problem with Sansa feeding Ramsay to the dogs.  He was an psycopath BUT that was barbaric. It was understandable and I was rooting for it but you hear crickets.  But it's different because it's Sansa. If Jon, Sam or anyone else didn't have a problem with that they shouldn't have a problem with Daenerys killing the Tarlys instantaneously with wildfire.  It's hypocrisy but I'm done trying to convince others it is.  

If it happened the same for Gilly, Jeyene Poole, Theon, the old lady; I still root for it. It's not just because she's Sansa, I think anyone of these victims be in the right.

[Happy Harpy]

55 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

1. Another message from the WWs as in 1x01

2. Gendry/Arya banter: endgame or setting up Gendry's death in 8x03?

3. Theon rescuing Yara heading north to help Team Stargaryen and I assume die at Winterfell in 8x03

4. Bran/Jaime resolution

5. Bronn also heading north, either to kill Tyrion and Jaime or to help them before he perishes in 8x03

2- Imo, if they only tease Arya/Gendry, he should make it after 8x03 at least. If they do it before the battle, his chances decrease; although it also depends on the master plan and on the importance of forging new swords and weapons later on.

3- I agree with the poster above (sorry, so many new posts) who said that Cersei could double-cross Tyrion. She doesn't trust Bronn, so she could send him on a suicide mission.

Will so many fighters and second tiers characters die in the WF battle? If there's another one in KL, and one half of the season left, they'll have to keep some of them around.

Grey Worm survives until 8x06 according to Frikidoctor. He's showed in the trailer kissing Missandei so they probably have scenes, so the journalist deducing they're going to die based on their lack of dialogue in 8x01 is off the mark imo.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Looks like the media has started teasing Tyrion's death...

Or they have the right to spread the word now, to prepare the mainstream audience... Imo, most of them who are following GoT know about the leaks. I often found sentences straight from FF posts in their articles.

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

And I'm sure his mother will be just fine with her asshole husband's death. No one needs that sort of abuse.

She'll be even finer with Jorah once the war is over (don't burst my bubble, I just have a few weeks of "hope" left for my crackship and my Jorah to survive).

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Might be that they’re assuming relatively minor characters who don’t really have their own storyline are easy grist for the mill — conversely, that’s actually why I think Missandei, at least, is more likely than not to survive.  Grey Worm is a combatant, so he could obviously die in any number of scenarios that would feel appropriate.

My position is if you are not a Stark or Targaryen and you are a combatant on the front line the odds are good that you are dead man walking. Varys is the only noncombatant who is likely in danger. 

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

That’s precisely why I think Jorah is going to die at Winterfell.  That battle needs at least one big name casualty, and we know almost everybody else makes it to the finale.

You might be right, but I see a lot of well known characters dying at Winterfell; Tormund, Beric, Podrick, Bronn, Melisandre. There are probably others I am missing. Selfishly, I hope Dany's hot Dothraki bodyguard makes it. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by SimoneS

[whoknowswho]

5 hours ago, SimoneS said:

IKR. It is convenient how no one wails about Jon decapitating Slynt for refusing to accept him as Lord Commander. Unlike the Tarlys, Slynt didn't kill anyone. He was just a weak coward. 

Actually, Slynt murdered the Baratheon baby (bastard). He deserved what he eventually got. You won't change my mind on Daenerys, she is far from my favourite character, she's either a savior like Christ, or a cold blooded murderer, or both. Depends who you ask. 

The Tarley's were doing their jobs as soldiers. Following orders.

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I noticed that, and I agree with Pod and Varys being high on the death list, although the stated rationale--the characters with little dialogue are going to die--is strange. Usually, it's the characters who suddenly come into focus who are imminently going to die, to remind the audience of their significance and to make their deaths more meaningful. I noticed a lot of Jorah/Dany scenes from the stills that have been released, and if you think Jorah's going to survive that 8x03 battle, well, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

The weird thing is that Friki swore up and down that he saw nothing in the 8x01 spoilers he received to sway his belief that Cersei and Tyrion reached a secret backroom deal in 7x07 and that Tyrion is lying to everyone, while omitting the part where Bronn is offered a contract on Jaime and Tyrion's life from Cersei. Maybe Mr_Freeload got it wrong about the contract on Tyrion's life, but that seems like a strange omission, and it's not consistent with the narrative that Tyrion and Cersei are working together and made a clandestine deal to sell out Jon and Dany.

I hope you're wrong about Jorah, but I fear you're right.

I can believe that Cersei would "seem" to make a deal with Tyrion and still plot to have him killed. She has already double-crossed him by refusing to send her forces to ally with Dany and Jon's forces, a fact which they will all learn once Jaime arrives at WF. Cersei and Tyrion didn't exactly have a trusting relationship to start with, he is still allied with the woman who wants to depose her and I think she is generally paranoid. Hedging her bets sounds like a Cersei thing to do. 

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

So the credits. Looks like Sophie and Maisie have jumped ahead of Liam and are now right behind Kit in the credits. It's Emilia, Kit, Sophie and Maisie.

Isaac is still in the same place behind Liam, Nathalie and along with Alfie and John.

The new animation for the credits also seem to be moving much faster - maybe to indicate the faster pace of the show.

Kit still with the direwolf I see. Maybe it changes next episode now that Jon's been informed. Or maybe after he formally accepts his parentage on the show.

Looks like the show is investing in this ship - Friki mentioned sexual tension and now Mr.Freeload. 

Could be Arya and Gendry produce the next generation of Starks. Bastard born Gendry could take the Stark name.

Only issue is that the seed is strong and all the baby Starks are going to come out looking like Bobby B instead of the Ned and lose the traditional long horsey faces of the Starks.

Gendrya maybe a little bit of fanservice, only because I think Gendry appears to a different character arc in the books than in the show and book and show are supposed to end in the same place... Still, I wouldn't mind a Gendrya endgame.  

Some time ago there was a leaked image of a combined direwolf/three-headed dragon sigil, and I wonder if we will see that with Kit's name in the credits once Jon finally accepts who he really is in the show. 

[SimoneS]

I always thought that Gendry would survive and be legitimized, but that does seem unlikely. After all, as @MarySNJ reminded me, he isn't a book character so he is an easy kill. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by SimoneS

[MarySNJ]

6 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I always thought that Gendry would survive and be legitimized, but that does seem unlikely. After all, as @MarySNJ reminded me, he isn't a book character so he is an easy kill. 

Well, he is a book character but it looks like he is going a different way than the show character - at least as of AFFC (can't recall if he shows up in ADWD). Then again, I suppose all roads lead to Winterfell in the end, so maybe he will end up there anyway.

ETA: I do honestly like the idea that Gendry would end up legitimized and  Lord of Storm's End. I just figure Arya's arc will not lead her to end up as Lady of Storm's End. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by MarySNJ

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Could be Arya and Gendry produce the next generation of Starks. Bastard born Gendry could take the Stark name.

Only issue is that the seed is strong and all the baby Starks are going to come out looking like Bobby B instead of the Ned and lose the traditional long horsey faces of the Starks.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's Arya who continues the Stark line (since it's down to her and Sansa in the show), but GRRM is so obsessed with the importance of the age-old distinctive Stark look that I doubt the only Stark who reproduces has Baratheon-looking kids.

5 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Well, he is a book character but it looks like he is going a different way than the show character - at least as of AFFC (can't recall if he shows up in ADWD).

I agree. I think those characters who are so far removed from their book versions that there's no way of getting to their book endgame are at high risk of getting killed off, and Gendry certainly qualifies. He's at even greater risk if Book Arya is not going to end up with Book Gendry, since I have no doubt that TV Arya and Book Arya will have the same endgame.

I feel the same about Gilly and Missandei's survival prospects. Gilly and Sam have a different relationship in the books, and unless Book Sam's endgame is to marry Gilly (which I doubt), they're going to have to put an end to that relationship one way or another. Ditto for Book Missandei, who is so far removed from TV Missandei that there is no way that TV Missandei and Book Missandei will end up in the same place. 

So with 8x01 spoilers under our belts and the above stated, here's my guess at 8x03 victims: Pod, Jorah, Beric, Melisandre, Bronn, Gendry, Missandei, Gilly, and maybe another dragon. They can't kill off too many characters at once or else everyone gets lost in the shuffle, but too few characters and the whole thing feels like a copout. So those are my guesses.

Gwendoline apparently told someone at the premiere that Brienne's S8 arc is "brutal." I have no doubt that at the very least Brienne loses Pod.

[SimoneS]

14 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

ETA: I do honestly like the idea that Gendry would end up legitimized and  Lord of Storm's End. I just figure Arya's arc will not lead her to end up as Lady of Storm's End. 

Isn't Arya is 12 or 13 years old when the story ends? It seems highly unlikely that she ends up as anyone's wife. 

[Happy Harpy]

7 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Isn't Arya is 12 or 13 years old when the story ends? It seems highly unlikely that she ends up as anyone's wife. 

Sansa was that age when she was supposed to marry Joffrey + it was planned with a 5 years gap.

9 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I wouldn't be surprised if it's Arya who continues the Stark line (since it's down to her and Sansa in the show), but GRRM is so obsessed with the importance of the age-old distinctive Stark look that I doubt the only Stark who reproduces has Baratheon-looking kids.

There was never a Baratheon-Stark marriage, IIRC. So no one knows what the product of such an union would look like.

[Eyes High]

15 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Isn't Arya is 12 or 13 years old when the story ends? It seems highly unlikely that she ends up as anyone's wife. 

Yes, but 1) the books aren't over yet, 2) several ASOIAF characters got married at that age or slightly older (Tyrion for his first marriage, Sansa, Dany, Alysanne Targaryen, etc.), and 3) there was originally a five-year time jump planned as @Happy Harpy said. 

I personally doubt that Arya will end the series married, either, but her age isn't much of a factor in my opinion.

2 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

There was never a Baratheon-Stark marriage, IIRC. So no one knows what the product of such an union would look like.

All of Robert's bastards, regardless of the mother's colouring, had the same black hair and blue eyes. Those are some superstrong genes. There's no reason to think Gendry's kids would be any different.

[Lady Iris]

Aww just got a flashback to season 1 Ned, "The seed is strong." I guess we'll be seeing just how strong it is... *goes back to lurking*

[domina89]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

Unlike the Tarlys, Janos Slynt begged Jon for another chance. Jon did not give him that chance and took off his head for insubordination.

Ok I'm going to jump in here with my opinion on this.  Jon paused the execution when Janos started crying and begging for mercy.  I think Jon was actually prepared to forgive him and send him to Greyguard at that point, but then Janos admits to being afraid.  Jon knows he is a bully and a coward, but he admits that in front of all the men.  We heard from season 1 on how the worst thing to be at the wall was a coward and there's no place for them there.  Jon can't just let that go.  He needs these men to be brave so they can survive.  We see Jon's face harden and then he executes him.  I believe while insubordination was the original reason for the execution, I do believe his cowardice is what convinced Jon to go through with it.

Quote

It's funny though that as we near the premiere the actors get constantly asked about who they think should be on the Iron throne/who they want on the Iron Throne, and no one ever mentions Jon/Dany. Ever. Not once. We got lots of Sansa, then Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Sam, Davos, Drogon, Ghost, Dragons. But no one wants or thinks Jon or Dany should be on the Iron throne?

Nice observation.  Now that you mention it, even from early interviews, everyone (literally EVERYONE) has been mentioned to sit the throne except Jon and/or Dany.  Very odd indeed considering both their story arcs seemed to be pushing them in that direction.

Edited April 4, 2019 by domina89

[Happy Harpy]

Just now, Eyes High said:

All of Robert's bastards, regardless of the mother's colouring, had the same black hair and blue eyes. Those are some superstrong genes. There's no reason to think Gendry's kids would be any different.

But Stark blood is arguably one of the oldest in Westeros, going back to the First Men 😁 The "genetics of Westeros" debate is another one that has been done to death, and I don't think it will matter if "let's join our houses" is the plan, anyway.

The only victim in 8x03 I'd wage money on is Pod.  He's 100% ded, imo. For the others, D&D will need to strike a balance between significant casualties (no Moldavian massacre) and not dilute the emotional impact of known/veteran/important/sympathetic characters' deaths with too many of them biting the dust. That's why for me, there's a lot of "or/either". Except for those present at the Tyrion's betrayal revelation and the actors who filmed in Seville, my wild guess:

-All the named Northerners, including Lyanna Mormont now that she's going to be more controversial; little Ned Umber proves they still have the balls to off kids. Alys Karstark's dead body might be momentarily mistaken for Sansa's, to scare part of the audience.

-The Lord of Light worshippers (never realized the acronym was LOL🤣) Beric and Melisandre, so no one gets a free from death card anymore.

-Two or three out of Tormund, Edd, Bronn, Theon (especially if he dies in WF by Stannis' hand in the books) and Varys. Conleth didn't seem to film much yet his character doesn't fight, so it isn't proof; Tormund is the last Wildling with a name. Someone at the head of Dany's troops, either the Dothraki in chief or Jorah.

-Outsiders (1): One out of Jaime or The Hound. They do seem to have unfinished business in KL after all, archenemies Varys/LF never met again. It would trump viewers' expectations in a huge way. WatcherOnMyBalls said he saw Jaime die in Brienne's arms, which I don't want to believe is final, but it's out there.

-Outsiders (2): They're going to off one  big non-combattant at least, so if Varys makes it: One out of Missandei, Gilly or Little Sam. The latter, especially if the "heartache" John Bradley said S8 has in store for Sam isn't his dolt brother.

[Wouter]

15 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Sansa snarks Tyrion, so it may be that scroll will just put a final nail in his coffin ?

Between Bronn and Cersei he's dead dwarf walking.

Actually, I think the tidbit about Bronn increases Tyrion's chances a little. The now relatively commonly accepted narrative that Tyrion has been plotting with Cersei, from the S7 finale or even earlier, takes a hit if Cersei is clearly shown as wanting him death still. It could even hurt Cersei's plan, assuming Tyrion is supposed to do more (real or imagined) betraying of Dany/Jon beyond just getting the ceasefire. And if Bronn murders Tyrion on Cersei's orders, Dany and Jon can then hardly condemn him to death for treason later. If anything, a failed assassination attempt (or Bronn admitting Cersei's intentions and switching sides like Jaime did) would probably be in Tyrion's favour as far as his papers with Dany go. 

As for Sansa and Tyrion, Hannah Murray did make that odd remark about Tyrion and Sansa in an interview some months ago (was it a question about her favourite GOT pairings, or something like that?). She doesn't seem the type to troll, unlike Turner for example, so unless she was referring back to S2/S3 one would expect some more and different interactions between Tyrion and Sansa. Of course, it's possible Hannah was deliberately being misleading, but a bit of a weird time and place to do so.

9 hours ago, SimoneS said:

IKR. It is convenient how no one wails about Jon decapitating Slynt for refusing to accept him as Lord Commander. Unlike the Tarlys, Slynt didn't kill anyone. He was just a weak coward. 

Slynt did kill people; in addition to those that have been named by others, he was also closely involved in capturing and the executing Ned Stark. He also had been plotting to get Jon killed while Slynt and Thorne had control over the Watch, post Jon's Wildling period. Moreover, Slynt gave him a perfect excuse to act on that by directly refusing a lawful order. That was richly deserved.

Ollie, I admit this wasn't Jon's best moment. Maybe it's not realistic but he could have forgiven and pardoned him given his history with the wildlings. Even if he did stab the LC. 

As for Dany, even book Dany has shown that she can be rash at times, and then she has doubts afterwards. I remember this with the wine seller who tried to poison her in S1 (in the books, she recalls she dragged him behind her horse till he died, and she seemed to have some trouble justifying this to herself) and with the slave masters she crucified in Meereen. On the other hand, she can also be compassionate to a far larger degree than normal for such powerful lords, like with her Meereen hostages (what would Jon have done with those, in her place?).

I'm pretty sure though that if Dany had known that she would become very close with Jon, that Sam was Jon's best friend and that Sam liked his brother but hated his father, she would not have burned Dickon. 

I also agree with the argument, made by another poster, that it was bad PR to execute them with fire for not bending the knee. Cersei has made it a spearpoint of her overall campaign to smear Dany as the Mad Kings' daughter, it wasn't smart to give her an extra talking point. Tyrion was probably right in S7  for once (outside the alliance with Jon), for urging Dany not to do it.

As for Winterfell and the AOTD: I still expect part of the castle to withstand the assault, with the enemy taking big losses. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by Wouter

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I personally doubt that Arya will end the series married, either, but her age isn't much of a factor in my opinion.

That does raise an unanswered question about what will happen to the Stark name in the future.  Unlike the Lannisters, who have all sorts of minor cousins running around,  we've apparently seen all of the Starks who are still alive.  Bran doesn't seem to be the type to be fathering children anymore, Arya doesn't seem to want to settle down and have kids, and Sansa is probably sick of being married off as a political tool and might decide to stay single.  Does the family name go extinct like we've seen with the Martells, Tyrells, and Baratheons?  If it's down to Jon (and he survives to have many children) will they be named Stark even though Targaryean is the more elite name?

[SimoneS]

14 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Slynt did kill people; in addition to those that have been named by others, he was also closely involved in capturing and the executing Ned Stark. He also had been plotting to get Jon killed while Slynt and Thorne had control over the Watch, post Jon's Wildling period. Moreover, Slynt gave him a perfect excuse to act on that by directly refusing a lawful order. That was richly deserved.

I am responding to this, then I am done with topic for now because the double standard with how Dany is being judged for the same actions that Jon had taken is indefensible, IMO.

My point is and still is that Slynt was executed for not accepting Jon's authority, the same reason that Dany executed the Tarlys. What Slynt did before he joined the Night Watch is irrelevant because everyone's past crimes etc. are wiped clean when they take that oath. All that matters is what Slynt did since joining the Night Watch and he had not killed anyone so all the banging on about his previous crimes is just a deflection to try to make Jon's actions seem somehow different from Dany's. However, since following orders is a thing for some of you, Slynt killed the Baratheon's illegitimate children and committed all his other action on orders from King Joffery unlike the Tarlys who willingly treacherously butchered hundreds of Tyrell soldiers and people who were Dany's vassals to gain power and status. So the Tarlys are still worse than Slynt and deserved every painful moment of their deaths.

Edited April 4, 2019 by SimoneS

[Wouter]

16 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

My point is and still is that Slynt was executed for not accepting Jon's authority, the same reason that Dany executed the Tarlys. What Slynt did before he joined the Night Watch is irrelevant because everyone's past crimes etc. are wiped clean when they take that oath. 

Even Jon is a human being. Slynt's involvement in getting his father killed is most certainly not wiped clean in Jon's eyes; that's merely a polite fiction that Jon has to put up with until Slynt gives him the perfect excuse to act on what he wants. 

And I note that Slynt's plotting against Jon, after his return from Ygritte but before his election, were actions taken (against the interests of the Watch and in the interests of the Lannisters) while he was under oath. So was his refusal to accept a perfectly normal order from the LC. 

Slynt was not only corrupt and criminal, he was also a personal enemy of Jon and he disobeyed his orders. What more justification did Jon need? 

Edited April 4, 2019 by Wouter

[bubble sparkly]

Okay, I am cackling. According to Freefolk, a couple of people who were at the premiere say that the dragons watch Dany and Jon kissing passionately with great interest. The leakers also seem to agree that the kissing leads to(offscreen) sex and the dragons are down with watching this too. I guess the dragons are very supportive of their mommy getting them a new step-daddy lol 😂.

ETA: maybe this scene of Dany and Jon going at it in front of the dragons is what Emilia was referring to when she said that Dany does some weird shit in s8 haha?

Edited April 4, 2019 by bubble sparkly

[nikma]

I like when they give personality to dragons.

OTOH, that means they will kill them lol.

[WindyNights]

46 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

That does raise an unanswered question about what will happen to the Stark name in the future.  Unlike the Lannisters, who have all sorts of minor cousins running around,  we've apparently seen all of the Starks who are still alive.  Bran doesn't seem to be the type to be fathering children anymore, Arya doesn't seem to want to settle down and have kids, and Sansa is probably sick of being married off as a political tool and might decide to stay single.  Does the family name go extinct like we've seen with the Martells, Tyrells, and Baratheons?  If it's down to Jon (and he survives to have many children) will they be named Stark even though Targaryean is the more elite name?

In the books, Sansa and Arya's kids would just take their mother's house name and be born Starks. The Stark line has only survived this long because of that same with the Lannister line. The current Starks are technically descended from female line Starks and their male line is a King Beyond the Wall called Bael the Bard and the current Lannisters are all descended from the male line of Joffrey Lydden who married a Lannister female and took her name.

In the books, GRRM has said there are Starks running around but they're so far removed from the family line that they're basically irrelevant. 

Karstarks are also Starks so they can just marry each other if he wants that to happen and the Karstarks can go back to being Starks as well.

Bran probably won't ever have kids but Sansa and Arya eventually will.

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

But Stark blood is arguably one of the oldest in Westeros, going back to the First Men 😁 The "genetics of Westeros" debate is another one that has been done to death, and I don't think it will matter if "let's join our houses" is the plan, anyway.

Weaker Tully genes is stronger than Stark blood apparently. 

And the Durrandon gene is apparently all-powerful if it's passed through a man.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I wouldn't be surprised if it's Arya who continues the Stark line (since it's down to her and Sansa in the show), but GRRM is so obsessed with the importance of the age-old distinctive Stark look that I doubt the only Stark who reproduces has Baratheon-looking kids.

I mean he's obsessed with the Stark look no more than the Targaryen look or the Tully look or the Lannister look or the Baratheon look.

You could very well have a case where all the future Targaryens now look like Starks because of Jon and all the Starks look like Baratheons and Tullys through Arya's line and Sansa's line.

GRRM likes to write about the end of an era and twilights.

Canonically, Baratheon genes overwrite everything else and Stark genes don't so if Arya x Gendry is endgame then all Starks must then look like Baratheons unless Sansa reproduces with a Karstark and then you'll have two different branches of Starks that look like Starks, Tully and Baratheons.