S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

[auntvi]

Quote

Sam stepping up and saying "We... no, I" to take responsibility for saying yes to the BMoL.

That's on my list also, AND no "I told you so" from anyone.

Also, turns out the 3 words are "I forgive you". Many tears.

[Wayward Son]

So sounds like I was right then... 

[bethy]

I thought Sam's "We, no I," was in the context of calling all the hunters together to fight the BMoL, not acknowledging his fault in following the them. That whole speech came across, to me, as "Sam is the leader, Dean is here to sit by and admire his brother."

But then, I may have had a rage blackout at that point.

[DeansDorkyAngel]

I'm 10000% done with the show if Cas is not coming back in s 13.

I can't express how pissed I am.

[MysteryGuest]

I really enjoyed the episode.  I'm actually rather surprised at how much.  I was so afraid that Jody was going to be killed, so yay that they didn't go there.

I had no issue with Sam changing from we to I, since he was admitting that he fell for the BMOL's bullshit.  I think both brothers got to be badass, which was great.  Loved that Dean got to use the grenade launcher.  He was determined to break through no matter what.  That was great.

I thought the scene with Dean and Mary was very moving.  He really laid it all on the line with her, and it worked. I was initially a little bummed that he didn't mention his own time in hell, but then I realized that he made that choice to sell his soul, just like he was accusing her of doing.  Sam's trip to hell was a direct result of the demon blood issue, which was a result of Mary's deal.  Dean did get to tell her just how hard her decision was on him, so he made his point very well.

I'm fine with Lady Toni getting what was coming to her.  They played the child card, so I don't think Sam or Dean would have killed her, but I have no issue that Ketch did it.  And I'm fine with Mary killing Ketch.  All in all, I thought this was a really good episode.

[Periadoc]

This was so awful. What was the point of baby Lucifer and the Alternative Universe? How are they in any way connected? Is he gonna go there? Why is his name Jack? REALLY? JACK? I still can't get over how utterly stupid Kelly was "I won't be there to teach him to ride a bike" Um, he's the devil's son, he's not gonna be riding any bikes or performing in school plays. 

Of course the worst part was Cas's anti-climatic, out of nowhere death (which better not be permanent, he was the only reason I watched through this season. The BMOL was so boring and I could care less about Mary)

[Macbeth]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I really enjoyed the episode.  I'm actually rather surprised at how much.  I was so afraid that Jody was going to be killed, so yay that they didn't go there.

I was praying to Chuck all the way through the episode - "Please don't kill Jody, please, please, please."

[gonzosgirrl]

The only thing I really hated is that they killed Rowena off-screen. Shit move, show. I don't believe Cas's death will stick, but sadly, I do believe that Crowley is gone. :(  They have lost the second best actor on the show, IMO. The wrong Mark died.

I'm sure that by the end of 13x01 Sam will have powers and bring back Cas. After all, 'he' saved the world, don't you know. (That sound you heard was my eyeballs rolling across the floor). Both Beren's and Dabb's hard-ons for Sam border on the comical. I propose a new drinking game - shot every time Sam has 'got something'.

But all that said, I didn't hate the episodes in and of themselves. If only Mary & Luci could stay in the bizarro land forever.

 

What I don't understand is why Cas came back through to go after Lucifer. All they had to do was step back through and Luci would've been trapped.

Edited May 19, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[2Old2BAFangirl]

So that happened.

I've always liked Crowley, but I know he's the bad guy so his death/sacrifice - well okay.  I'll miss him but he really did some evil shit.

But Cas?  No.  I really hope they bring him back - and I don't normally like the resurrection thing either.  But I love Cas.  And I want Cas to stay on the show.

It was nice to see Bobby though.  And my feelings aren't hurt that Mary is trapped with Lucifer on the other side now.

The long wait now begins.  

[Boopsahoy]

I loved 22 but 23 ripped my heart out. I have to watch again to absorb it all. DEAN GOT TO USE THE GRENADE LAUNCHER! I loved bitch/Jerk and of course Bobby! AND he named his gun Rufus! Dean telling mary he hates her but he loves her. Brought back memories of telling my Dad I hated him (of course I didn't)

[auntvi]

It's possible that Crowley isn't really, truly dead. He is a cockroach. If someone dies on one side, they aren't necessarily dead on the other side. Maybe Crowley will show up on this side at some point.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

 

What I don't understand is why Cas came back through to go after Lucifer. All they had to do was step back through and Luci would've been trapped.

Would he have?  Cas came in after Lucifer.  Sam and Dean went out.  Then Cas came out and Lucifer stabbed him.  Mary showed up on the scene.  Punched Lucifer a few times, then they went through, and then the door closed.  That was the slowest working lock someone in spell ever.

[auntvi]

3 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

AND he named his gun Rufus!

At first I thought he was talking about the real Rufus, so I was a little disappointed it was just his gun. But that's a great name for an automatic weapon.

[ZennyKenny]

19 minutes ago, bethy said:

I thought Sam's "We, no I," was in the context of calling all the hunters together to fight the BMoL, not acknowledging his fault in following the them. That whole speech came across, to me, as "Sam is the leader, Dean is here to sit by and admire his brother."

But then, I may have had a rage blackout at that point.

I got the complete opposite impression. Sam was realizing that the way he was phrasing it was forcing Dean to share responsibility for the BMoL fiasco. Saying "I" removed Dean from that. Which, imo, was the right thing to do.

[bmoore4026]

The British Men of Letters didn't suffer enough after all the crap they put us through this season!

Ah well, at least the bunker is OK.  And Mommy Winchester is no longer brainwashed!  Yay!!!

Jensen Ackles did a masterful job with that monologue.

Edited May 24, 2017 by bmoore4026

[SueB]

@rue721 and I watching as Luci screams NOOOOOOOO!

Cheeseburgers & Fries, Wine & Scotch, & Apple Pie.

[MysteryGuest]

Well, let's just kill off everyone why don't we??  I honestly wasn't surprised by Crowley's death.  I really think Mark was ready to move on to other things.  I'm hoping that Cas can come back.  I think Sam was running to find the nephilim to see if he could save him.  

I'm pissed about Mary, but I guess we'll have to wait and see whether they can get her back.  The fact that Lucifer isn't really dead yet and is just locked away in bizarro world, I fully expect to see him back next season.

Majorly pissed at how they killed Rowena.  She deserved a decent death.  I guess they simply ran out of time considering the number of death scenes they had.

I truly have mixed feelings about Cas and Crowley.  I love Mark and Misha, but the writers really haven't had anything interesting to do with them in quite a while.  I think the show is going to focus more on just hunters next year, and without any super-powered intervention.  Maybe they can bring Cas back, but he won't have any angel powers anymore.  He can be a hunter alongside Sam and Dean.  Something along the lines of The End Castiel...he was fun!

It's a long wait till October to see if anyone is coming back.

Edited May 19, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Binns]

I liked both episodes. Really liked 22, and overall happy with 23. I was prepared for Cas, surprised by Crowley. I am not sure we've seen the last of Cas- I can see a scenario where the nephilim resurrects him bc of their bond. I don't really get why he came to that world though- things were under control - the portal was going to close, wasn't it? With Crowley's death? 

Other Earth- I took "this is a world you didn't save" as aimed at both of them, not just Sam. Neither of them were born. I kinda dig the idea of Bobby and Mary there- Leaves the door open for Mary to come back (eh). But it sets up a potential episode or two. I'm not really sure what to think about Jack. I can't see the boys "raising" him. 

I think next season will start immediately after this one and we'll see more of their grief over Cas and Mary.

Random thoughts:

Kinda loved how neither boy got the kill in the first ep but instead it was a kickass chick

 

What a fucking horrible belly prosthesis at the start of 23 w Kelly and Cas. 

Really going to miss Rowena. She really grew on me. 

JP making the "we need a key..." hand gesture from "The French Mistake" when he was talking about Bizarro Worlds

BOBBY!

Edited May 19, 2017 by Binns
Woops, took out ep 22 stuff.

[bmoore4026]

Bastards killed off Crowley, Rowena, and Castiel!!!  RIOT!!!!

And the lady gave birth to Neal McDonough it looks like.  A welcome addition if, indeed, that's supposed to be him.

[catrox14]

Just now, bmoore4026 said:

And the lady gave birth to Neal McDonough it looks like.  A welcome addition if, indeed, that's supposed to be him.

I think that was Misha in the corner, wasn't it?

[Binns]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, let's just kill off everyone why don't we??  I honestly wasn't surprised by Crowley's 

I truly have mixed feelings about Cas and Crowley.  I love Mark and Misha, but the writers really haven't had anything interesting to do with them in quite a while.  I think the show is going to focus more on just hunters next hear, and without any super-powered intervention.  Maybe they can bring Cas back, but he won't have any angel powers anymore.  He can be a hunter alongside Sam and Dean.

This is what I think too. Overall I watch the show for the boys and peripheral characters that come and go are fine like Jodi, Donna. But my favorite Castiel is season 5 Castiel. Badass, came and went, mysterious. They kinda neutered him. I haven't ever really enjoyed his later storylines- the angels, Godstiel, etc. - I always sort of felt like they were searching for things for him and it wasn't always organic. And Crowley is fun in small doses but again...didn't really care about Hell and his administrative duties. 

I'm easy to please- I'm very happy that the boys are healthy and working so well together. Their relationship is wonderful right now. And that is enough to make me happy. The only reason I'm sad about Cas is because it will upset Dean so much. 

[bmoore4026]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I think that was Misha in the corner, wasn't it?

Well, he had platinum blonde hair.

The blonde Castiel, the brunette Castiel, and Dean

[Goldmoon]

Didn't look like him to me. I was looking for exactly that.

[Binns]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I think that was Misha in the corner, wasn't it?

Huh, I didn't think so at all. It looked sort of alien to me. 

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

'm sure that by the end of 13x01 Sam will have powers and bring back Cas. After all, 'he' saved the world, don't you know. (That sound you heard was my eyeballs rolling across the floor). Both Beren's and Dabb's hard-ons for Sam border on the comical. I propose a new drinking game - shot every time Sam has 'got something'

Man that pissed me off.  Dean fucking saved the world too. And NO, I do not think it was meant to as 'Cas really meant both Dean and Sam were never born' . He was looking at Sam when he said it.

Off to bitterness land I go.

[Jediknight]

That's how they end Lady Bevell's story, with Ketch slitting her throat off screen?  Could have at least showed her trying to stop Ketch, and buying Dean some more time.  They really did a horrible job of a redemption storyline for her.

Jody is awesome.  Of course she killed Hess with a headshot, after everything the BMoL did to her "boys", it was nice to see her take out Hess.  Hess and Ketch were both taken out by moms to Sam and Dean.

But, yeah, where the fudge was Claire?

[bethy]

9 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I got the complete opposite impression. Sam was realizing that the way he was phrasing it was forcing Dean to share responsibility for the BMoL fiasco. Saying "I" removed Dean from that. Which, imo, was the right thing to do.

Interesting. I actually just went back and watched that again and i think what got me initially was Sam saying, "l called you here," after the "we." He did go on, later, to acknowledge he didn't have the sense to turn them down. But still at the end, what he says is, "I want you to follow me." That, in my opinion, left Dean out of the fight and out of a leadership role. It didn't acknowledge Dean's instincts having been right about the BMoL. The heart of the show has always been about Sam and Dean, together, fighting the good fight. And again, for me, Sam's speech made it about Sam instead of the Winchesters.

[ZennyKenny]

I was kinda taking notes on my likes/dislikes like I did with last episode, but, in light of recent events, I decided to scrap that shit and share some quick after-episode thoughts.

- Fuck you for killing Rowena, and off-screen at that.
- Fuuuck you for killing off Crowley.
- Fuuuuuuuuuuck you for killing off Castiel
- but most of all, FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YOU for keeping Lucifer alive!

I have no opinion on Mary.

Although honestly, I'm not convinced that Cas is dead. If he's supposed to be Jack's surrogate father, I fully expect Jack to resurrect him next season.

Edited May 19, 2017 by ZennyKenny

[Binns]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Man that pissed me off.  Dean fucking saved the world too. And NO, I do not think it was meant to as 'Cas really meant both Dean and Sam were never born' . He was looking at Sam when he said it.

Off to bitterness land I go.

You really think Cas would say that to just Sam? That makes no sense. Cas would never leave Dean out of that. Maybe the direction was off and that's why he was looking at Sam but no way did he mean only Sam. ESPECIALLY not Cas. 

[catrox14]

55 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Why is this show so against actually acknowledging Dean's suffered too.  They've had multiple opportunities to bring up what he's been through but every single time it was ignored. 

I am so annoyed with this. Like okay, so Dean didn't say anything to Mary in that case, because I think he must have figured her guilt about Sam would be enough to get to her. But fucking hell.

At least, finally, at long last, the show finally, canonically, acknowledged that Dean has acted as a parent to Sam for much of his life. All the awards to Jensen for his work in that scene.  The first 'I hate you' was shocking and powerful and remarkable. Beautiful work.

Didn't really like the 'Kick it in the ass" said by a character who's been in like 3 episodes. That needed to be said by Dean to Sam. 

45 minutes ago, bethy said:

I thought Sam's "We, no I," was in the context of calling all the hunters together to fight the BMoL, not acknowledging his fault in following the them. That whole speech came across, to me, as "Sam is the leader, Dean is here to sit by and admire his brother."

But then, I may have had a rage blackout at that point.

I had the same impression as you. And I was not in rage blackout mode...yet

[Idahoforspn]

2 hours ago, bethy said:

I'm waiting on watching the finale because I need to get this off my chest.

What the actual EFF. 

I just.... I don't even know if I have word for how much I hated this episode.

Sam's ridiculous "I am the leader speech" - what? He starts with "we" then is all , "No, I!" Because sure. That's what being a leader is all about - making to put yourself front and center. While Dean looked on dewy-eyed. Gag. 

Then Sam at the end, pulling first Mary, then Dean, into an embrace like the benevolent leader he is.

I pretty much fast forwarded through all the BMoL stuff because my disgust at that storyline was too strong. 

Dean does get the moment with the grenade-launcher, so yea. 

Glad Dean got a chance to tell Mary he hated her. Yes, he moved on to saying he loved her but I get that. 

Jody rocks. I loved the little caress she gave Dean, knowing how much he was hurting.

Just. Yuck.

I'm with you. Hated everything but Ackles acting!!

[Binns]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Yup, and despite Jensen being so fantastic in that scene it stopped me from really enjoying it because it wasn't about Dean.  It was about Sam

Didn't he say how hard it was for him having to be mother and father and brother? I will have to rewatch but I interpreted that scene as being about Dean's pain. 

29 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I got the complete opposite impression. Sam was realizing that the way he was phrasing it was forcing Dean to share responsibility for the BMoL fiasco. Saying "I" removed Dean from that. Which, imo, was the right thing to do.

Same. He was confessing to them, to me. 

Random thoughts:

Sweaty boys in t shirts- yes, please

Kickass Jodi and Alex taking down AlternaMary

How satisfying was it for Dean to finally, finally unload on Mary? Everything some fans have been dying to say to her.

Has Bobo written before? 

Edited May 19, 2017 by Binns

[ZennyKenny]

4 minutes ago, Binns said:

You really think Cas would say that to just Sam? That makes no sense. Cas would never leave Dean out of that. Maybe the direction was off and that's why he was looking at Sam but no way did he mean only Sam. ESPECIALLY not Cas. 

Yeah to me it was obvious he was saying it to the brothers, both of them.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Binns said:

Didn't he say how hard it was for him having to be mother and father and brother? I will have to rewatch but I interpreted that scene as being about Dean's pain. 

Then he said he didn't do a good job because and went into how hard things were for Sam.  So IMO, that scene was all about Sam.

Edited May 19, 2017 by ILoveReading

[SueB]

Actually, I think the three words are "I hate you."   I FLAT OUT GASPED.  I just didn't expect it. And God Bless Dean for being able to get past it.  

Short good/bad/ugly as I have an early routine doc's appointment.

GREAT:
- EVERYTHING DEAN SAID TO MARY.  That scene rocked.  Dean acknowledging his life sucked and yet he is happy with who he is.  I LOVE HIM SO MUCH. And Dean was SO smart in that scene.  Tony had no clue how well versed he is in mind-walking. He immediately realized Mary was willfully ignoring him.  Go SMART DEAN. And 3 gold stars w/ little hearts to Bobo for having Dean say he had to be BOTH Mother and Father to Sam and that that was not right.  
- The three-way hug.  Jared has a six-foot wing span and gives literally the BEST F*CKING HUGS IN THE WORLD.  I'm not joking. Both boys (Jared & Jensen) squeeze the stuffing out of you in a hug for a photo op, but Jared's arms are like next-level massively long.  So I FELT that hug at the end.  It was perfect.  *sigh*
- Jody, you BadAss You.  

Good:
- The Grenade launcher and Dean saving them in the Bunker.  Yay for that.  I am going to watch that scene multiple times.
- That magic didn't work to get them out of the bunker.  Too easy.  
- That Jody beat Mary and Alex helped.  Nice little continuity nod to Alex studying nursing.
- Sending Alex to Donna's.  Yay Donna & Jody!  I <3 them so much.  Yes, I'm 12 right now.  With rainbow sprinkles.  Bite Me.
- Sam owning the BMoL problem and cleaning up after what he felt was HIS mistake.
- "Pass" and shooting out the screen.  You go Sammy.
- Walt & Roy showing up.  Although I thought Walt died.  They must have skipped that shot from the 2 in 1 video. Still, I liked the continuity call-back to that time they were killed by other hunters.
- Lady Tony & Ketch are DEAD.  And Hess.  Although Hess needed to die more horribly. I'm actually good with Tony being killed offscreen.  She didn't deserve more. I'm fine with Mary killing Ketch. It was she and Dean TOGETHER, she just pulled the trigger. 
- That Jody killed Hess.  It's like "shut up." But she didn't bother to say it, she just did it.
- That Dean said "Yes we are." When Ketch said they were killers.  In a "and we're still good people" kind of way.  I really REALLY like how comfortable Dean has become in his own skin.
- Sam's speech about the American's knowing the RIGHT thing to do.

Bad:
- The BMoL raid ... I get the point, that they wanted Sam to step up and finally get a "win" for what he perceived as HIS mistake.  And that Sam took the lead, rather than follow.  But you could see the seams a bit.  Dean could have helped and Mary could have been left in the dungeon (along w/ Lady Tony)... I mean, what's the value of having a dungeon....  BUT, they wanted to split the action.  So, I accept that the choice, just felt a little out of nowhere that Sam needed to take on the leadership role.  I DO think it's a setup for S13 (for both boys) and I'm good with that.
- Hey, those were humans. EVIL HUMANS but at least it warranted someone saying ... 'Are we good with just shooting to kill?' and someone responding 'Yes. They are hunting US, we treat them like any supernatural entity, they are an active threat and they need to be put down. If someone surrenders, we'll deal with that. But if they are fighting, they go down."  I mean really, you have an officer of the law (Jody) RIGHT THERE.  Of course they tried to kill her and Alex and had Claire on their radar (who is obviously still alive).  But.... I think it warranted a discussion and a group dismissal. 
- Ketch felt neutered.  I mean, it was a good brutal fight with Dean (Go Jensen & David!!!) BUT I just didn't feel like he was much of a threat anymore.  

The Ugly:
- I got nothing.  Nothing was really "BLEECH" in this one for me.  I may pick up something tomorrow, but not on first viewing.

Edited May 19, 2017 by SueB

[Binns]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Then he said he didn't do a good job because and went into how hard things were for Sam.  So IMO, that scene was all about Sam.

I always love to see how differently people interpret these things. It didn't come across like that to me at all but I can see how it looked that way. To me that scene was all about Dean getting 30-odd years off his chest. 

[ParadoxLost]

I gasped at Crowley.

At Cas's death, my response was a great big well this is another finale death and premiere resurrection for everybody.  Actually I said aloud, they can't kill the ensemble, I don't think that Jared and Jensen want to work as many hours as required when there are only two regulars.

The Nephilim is going to resurrect Cas either because of the connection while in the womb or because he has imprinted on Sam like a baby duck.

Less certain of Crowley, but I think Crowley deserved more of a sendoff than being immediately overshadowed by Cas dying which tends to make me think he'll be back in some capacity.

This show has really dulled the impact of on screen deaths through the constant Winchester resurrections. I won't believe it unless they put out a press release and maybe not even then.

[SueB]

Just now, Binns said:

I always love to see how differently people interpret these things. It didn't come across like that to me at all but I can see how it looked that way. To me that scene was all about Dean getting 30-odd years off his chest. 

Me too.  This is DEAN.  Of course he views it in terms of not ONLY impact to him but impact to Sam.  And he had to clean up that Soulless mess as well.  But Dean got his pain out.  The "I hate you." I STILL can't believe they went there.  Just ... amazing.  I'm so proud of Dean, I'm practically bursting.  

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Yeah to me it was obvious he was saying it to the brothers, both of them.

He made a point of speaking directly to and looking directly at Sam. Sorry, I can't hand wave that away, not with Andrew I-wanna-be-Sam's-boyfriend Dabb writing the script.  They might as well put him in tights and get it over with.

Edited May 19, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

Well, they did what they said they would--reset the show to its beginnings:  just the two Winchesters hunting together, without any supernatural help.  And while angels, demons, "good witches" and Mary can no longer jump in to save the day,  they do still have hunters/friends to turn to/work with (like Bobby used to be before he became superman.)  

Both heaven and hell have lost their leaders so who knows what will happen next...maybe the Winchesters (hopefully *both* together) will "step up to become leaders" like they kept hinting (that's sarcasm, btw), and unite both sides to defeat the Nephilim.  (Seriously, does anyone think he's going to be a good guy after that last look?)

And while I'll miss everyone they fridged (except maybe Mary), I think there's potential for just about anything to happen.  I'll still be watching next season.

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, Binns said:

I always love to see how differently people interpret these things. It didn't come across like that to me at all but I can see how it looked that way. To me that scene was all about Dean getting 30-odd years off his chest. 

But it was talking about 30 plus years of how Sam suffered, with barely a mention of Dean of how Dean also suffered because of it.  I wanted Dean to talk about his childhood, (with details), and how he felt he had to selll his soul because of the pressure John put on him.

Nothing about Dean's childhood was really addressed.  It was brought up and dropped.

The excuse, it's Dean doesn't work.  For me true character growth would be him acknowledging that he did the best he could, but he still sees himself as a failure,  So I disagree Dean's comfortable in his own skin because of this.

Edited May 19, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DJG1122 said:

The Nephilim was Misha? All I saw was the yellow eyes. 

It looked like a CGI altered Misha, but I could be wrong and be in denial. LOL

[MysteryGuest]

I think they gave us what people have been asking for.  Sam and Dean were split up, but both got to be kickass in the action department.  Jensen got to do what he does best in the emotional scene.  I was very happy with the amount of Sam and Dean in both episodes.  I only wish that would continue next season.

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

But it was talking about 30 plus years of how Sam suffered, with barely a mention of Dean of how Dean also suffered because of it.  I wanted Dean to talk about his childhood, (with details), and how he felt he had to selll his soul because of the pressure John put on him.

Nothing about Dean's childhood was really addressed.  It was brought up and dropped.

I think Dean covered it all pretty well, but it was absolutely in character for him to put Sam's pain before his own. He's done it all of his life.  

[ParadoxLost]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He made a point of speaking directly to and looking directly at Sam. Sorry, I can't hand wave that away, not with Andrew I-wanna-be-Sam's-boyfriend Dabb writing the script.  

I kind of took it as that world exists because Sam wasn't born and didn't become Lucifer's vessel and whoever that was didn't throw himself into the cage to keep Lucifer boxed.

That it wasn't about all the times the world was saved by Sam and Dean but that one time when they averted the apocalyptic war between Lucifer and Michael.  And in that case, Cas was wrong to be saying that to Sam, he should have said it to the Impala.

Edited May 19, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[Idahoforspn]

32 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 

It's a long wait till October to see if anyone is coming back.

Actually, these were such awful episodes, it's going to be a really easy wait because they made me not really care.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Binns said:

You really think Cas would say that to just Sam? That makes no sense. Cas would never leave Dean out of that. Maybe the direction was off and that's why he was looking at Sam but no way did he mean only Sam. ESPECIALLY not Cas. 

I'm just telling you how I interpreted the scene. Cas never looked at Dean  and the camera IIRC did not show Dean reacting to any of it. IMO, between the dialogue, the directing and the acting, that's how it came across to me. Does it make sense for Cas character? Nope. But I still saw it that way. YMMV

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

 

That it wasn't about all the times the world was saved by Sam and Dean but that one time when they averted the apocalyptic war between Lucifer and Michael.  And in that case, Cas was wrong to be saying that to Sam, he should have said it to the Impala.

LOL!! True!!!

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think they gave us what people have been asking for.  Sam and Dean were split up, but both got to be kickass in the action department.  Jensen got to do what he does best in the emotional scene.  I was very happy with the amount of Sam and Dean in both episodes.  I only wish that would continue next season.

I think Dean covered it all pretty well, but it was absolutely in character for him to put Sam's pain before his own. He's done it all of his life.  

Yeah its in character but that doesn't make it any less disappointing.  We are 13 years in, its time to let Dean think of himself for once. 

[Binns]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm just telling you how I interpreted the scene. Cas never looked at Dean  and the camera IIRC did not show Dean reacting to any of it. IMO, between the dialogue, the directing and the acting, that's how it came across to me. Does it make sense for Cas character? Nope. But I still saw it that way. YMMV

Yeah, I didn't mean to sound bitchy there, it was more surprise- like I said in the other thread, it's interesting to see how people interpret things so differently. 

[companionenvy]

You know, it is funny. Before the episodes aired, I was looking forward to coming back and discussing it in the forums, but now I'm just kind of numb. And it isn't sadness over losing Cas, it is just from weariness of being jerked around. Given the show's history and the way the season left off, I have no way of knowing if Cas is dead, if Crowley is dead, if Rowena is dead (well, actually, I'm pretty sure Rowena is dead). On one hand, we're getting sweet scenes of Cas and Kelly preparing for a baby, and on the other, we have huge honking signs that the kid (is it a kid? It certainly isn't a baby) is evil, evil, evil.  And of course, Lucifer lives on. In an alt-world that, as of now, I have zero reason to care about. Sure, it is nice to see Jim Beaver, but that guy isn't our Bobby in any meaningful way. 

Cliffhangers are all well and good, but at some point I need some emotional payoff - or, at least, enough sense of what is real and what isn't -- if you want me to give a damn. 

For all the gaping plotholes and ridiculous villains, at least We Happy Few gave me some sense of a satisfying story. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by companionenvy