The Keepers

[maxineofarc]

IANAL and the law office I work for is in MA, not MD, but at least in my state there are statutes of limitation on civil charges as well as criminal. And you're not allowed to nope out of a subpoena; if you do, after a certain number of attempts to get you in a judge can issue what's called a capias order to have you literally picked up by the cops and brought in to testify.

[verysimple]

Just to concur with maxineofarc - civil as well as criminal lawsuits have statutes of limitations - there are ostensibly valid reasons for this - that you don't want people waiting 40 years to bring a lawsuit that was perfectly capable of being brought within a year or two of the original action - it leaves a sword of damocles hanging over the head of the potential respondent for way too long in many cases.

But in the case of THESE cases, the SOL is just way too short - in many states it's "maturity plus [some short of time]". So people who were molested as kids only have a few years after they become adults to bring cases, and often they're not in the legal/financial/psychological place to do that, particularly when you're looking down the barrel of something like the institutional pressure of the Church (or a school - in NYC, we've got some pretty bad prvate school cases getting exposed now, and I think there's a move to also change the SOL after the Horace Mann situation and another recent case that just came out)

On another note - when I watched this over the weekend, I could swear that Deep Throat was captioned - were you watching screeners?

[zxy556575]

It's typical for adult predators to home in on the most vulnerable children, but for a priest to use the confessional to target those who were already violated is so evil and depraved I can't even fathom it.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I was. He was not captioned; Edgar was not captioned.

[Kbilly]

I love Gemma so much. She has such a skill in talking to people, getting the info she needs.  Together, their determination is so amazing.

I  didn't think it was slow at all I was completely sucked in and had to keep myself from binge-ing the whole thing in one setting and then I dreamed about it all night.

[blackberryknish]

Does anyone know of any resources or anything a layperson can do to help victims of the church? I'm so freaked out - I feel like I need to DO something, but I don't have any formal training.

[kieyra]

4 hours ago, blackberryknish said:

Does anyone know of any resources or anything a layperson can do to help victims of the church? I'm so freaked out - I feel like I need to DO something, but I don't have any formal training.

I tried to help you out and I googled "Catholic victims fund", but this is what turned up:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/01/catholic-church-sexual-abuse-victims-payout-loan-new-york

Meh.

[kieyra]

The show seems to be gaining legs; it's spawning clickbait articles like this:

https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Who-Killed-Sister-Cathy-Cesnik-43563505

[kieyra]

Almost through the final episode. The amount of stonewalling and bullshit (and probably sheer bureaucratic incompetence) is amazing.

(Ok, sadly I bet a lot of it is incompetence, especially with regards to misplaced evidence. I'm not saying docs weren't tampered with, I just never underestimate the power of human laziness.)

That scene where the current Baltimore police boss realizes the documentary makers already know about the cigarette? Priceless. 

I find the scenes with Edgar frustrating to watch. Since he's obviously non compos mentis, I don't understand the point. I'm also surprised they included those scenes after the outrage about the way the kid in Making a Murderer was interrogated. It often seemed like Edgar was just agreeing with whatever the dude said and not paying attention. If someone has a different read on this, I'd be interested.

This documentary has reminded me of something I rarely think about. My grandfather was an angry, miserable, cynical drunk most of the time. I never knew why, just grew up with him ruining holidays or my birthday or whatever with drunken outbursts or picking fights with my father. He was an alcoholic at a very early age, including during his service in WWII. He died about fifteen years ago. A couple of years back now, my father admitted that he thought my grandfather had been abused by Catholic priests. I'm not sure what the basis for this theory was (other than my grandfather having been an altar boy), but I can tell you that any religion in my family halted back at my grandfather's generation. My father died a few months ago, also an addict and generally pretty fucked up (double felon) and dysfunctional--his mother died young and after that all he had was his screwed-up alcoholic father. I had no real relationship with him because of the addiction issue.

But if my father was right about my grandfather, then you can see how the damage just gets passed down along the generations.

[zxy556575]

26 minutes ago, kieyra said:

But if my father was right about my grandfather, then you can see how the damage just gets passed down along the generations.

So true and despairingly sad. Makes me wonder how different Jean's life might have been if her mind hadn't stepped in to repress the horror and safeguard her.

[Arynm]

9 hours ago, verysimple said:

Just to concur with maxineofarc - civil as well as criminal lawsuits have statutes of limitations - there are ostensibly valid reasons for this - that you don't want people waiting 40 years to bring a lawsuit that was perfectly capable of being brought within a year or two of the original action - it leaves a sword of damocles hanging over the head of the potential respondent for way too long in many cases.

But in the case of THESE cases, the SOL is just way too short - in many states it's "maturity plus [some short of time]". So people who were molested as kids only have a few years after they become adults to bring cases, and often they're not in the legal/financial/psychological place to do that, particularly when you're looking down the barrel of something like the institutional pressure of the Church (or a school - in NYC, we've got some pretty bad prvate school cases getting exposed now, and I think there's a move to also change the SOL after the Horace Mann situation and another recent case that just came out)

There should be NO statute of limitations on molestation of a minor. Period, end of story. These children sometimes don't feel comfortable telling anyone for years after the abuse. It is sick that there is no justice for these victims just because they could not speak about it until they were older.

[Arynm]

1 hour ago, kieyra said:

I find the scenes with Edgar frustrating to watch. Since he's obviously non compos mentis, I don't understand the point. I'm also surprised they included those scenes after the outrage about the way the kid in Making a Murderer was interrogated. It often seemed like Edgar was just agreeing with whatever the dude said and not paying attention. If someone has a different read on this, I'd be interested.

I actually thought that he was trying very hard to think up a plausible answer to what was being asked of him. I thought he was quilty, and was thisclose to admitting it, but could not bring himself to do it. Maybe his brain was a little pickled from alcohol, but not enough for him to not know what he did.

[kieyra]

34 minutes ago, Lord Donia said:

So true and despairingly sad. Makes me wonder how different Jean's life might have been if her mind hadn't stepped in to repress the horror and safeguard her.

My family is also very small and seemed to take steps to run from their pasts, criss-crossing the country in the process. Jean had that support network of her huge family. But that doesn't disregard your point--it seems like her family had no clue until the memories started unraveling for her; they were just there to catch her while someone else might have fallen into the abyss.

[kieyra]

1 minute ago, Arynm said:

I actually thought that he was trying very hard to think up a plausible answer to what was being asked of him. I thought he was quilty, and was thisclose to admitting it, but could not bring himself to do it. Maybe his brain was a little pickled from alcohol, but not enough for him to not know what he did.

Ok. Like I said, I'm interested in hearing different takes for sure. He looked like a stroke victim--but I don't actually know what a stroke victim looks like. Whatever was going on with his eyes. (I also know that having a stroke isn't the same as dementia, which it also seemed like he had.) But I have very little experience with the elderly. 

I did have the vaguest sense that when he said "I had nothing to do with it", that he was reciting from a script in his head, almost by reflex. But he didn't seem that unconvincing to me. Some questions were just problematic, especially when they'd ask convoluted questions about whether he had tried to make people think he was involved when he really wasn't--I was left wondering whether he'd really paid attention all the way to the end of the question, or just said "yeah" when he thought a response was expected.

[film noire]

Every time I think I've gotten to the end of perversity, pedophilia and cover-ups in the church,  I'm proven wrong and there's another story. The Duplessis orphans, the Christian Brothers, the Magdalene laundries, John Geoghan (Spotlight) Father Gauthe in Louisiana, that bastard Dolan, the documentary  "Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in The House of God" -- and now these sweet girls from Keogh, full of dreams and betrayed in the most profane ways --  I keep thinking "Well, this is the end of it; this is the final siphoning off of the poison, surely this is the last horrific story of an innocent girl or boy having their tender life ruined by some demented sick fuck in a cassock? This must be it; because how many children are left in the world to be ruined? How many?"

Turns out, always a thousand children more;  it never fucking ends. There's always another story.  And I am at the point - raised Catholic (fairly liberal, seventies style) -- where I consider myself lucky,  because all I had to endure was a priest copping a feel and sticking his holy tongue down my thirteen year old throat on Christmas Eve at my parent's house  (WHICH, YOU KNOW, NOT A SLIDING SCALE ANYONE SHOULD BE USING) but I consider that a victory, because there's a children's march of middle aged women (and men) that moves relentlessly forward -- always another story, always another priest, always another lawyer for the church, always another sick tale that would make Jesus pick up an AK 47 -- always. We need a shorthand for this: the fish symbol, with a knife in its heart.

And that retired cop - the one with the Kris Kringle beard, hesitant speech and dead eyes? -- he so fucking knows everything. Everything.

Edited May 23, 2017 by film noire

[Primetimer]

Seriously, how many despicable people can one series discuss?

View the full article

[teddysmom]

I thought the necklace was given to the first wife the Christmas following Cathy's death, which would have just been 5-6 weeks later.

The doc never explained any connection between Maskell and Billy & Edgar, but it also never gave a reason, if there wasn't a connection, why they would kill her.

And if they used her car to transport her to wherever they did kill her, and went to all the trouble to bring it back, why not go ahead and park it legally.

I don't believe the reporter saying that the priest Cathy was friends with killed her or knew something.

The fact that Maskell took Jean to the body proves that he knew it was going to happen and where she ended up. But how big are your balls that you dare to take someone to a dead body and tell them "this is what happens when you bad mouth people".

[Primetimer]

When is it chasing a lead, and when is it chasing their tails?

View the full article

[teddysmom]

Quote

 

Cathy's sister, Marilyn, is so full of life, I can understand why the young women were all drawn to Cathy if she was anything like that.

I  can't agree with the reporter's assessment that Cathy would have told Gerry about what was going on. I think because they were in religious orders, and still trying to figure out what was happening between them, and what their future would be, that she would understandably kept the information about Keogh from him, so as to not further complicate their situation/relationship. That makes complete sense to me, and I have known many nuns and priests, as well as former nuns and priests.

And WOW. That ending.

 

They were all great.  I hope I'm not in the wrong episode so I'm spoilering this in case it didn't come up til Episode 7. 

Spoiler

but the woman who was Jane Roe going back to college and getting her law degree, and then defending a young man arrested during the Freddie Gray street sweeps, and telling him "in Baltimore, you stay off the corners". 

I can believe Cathy didn't tell Roob about it. She wasn't sure what was going on, it's not like she saw him every day, and maybe she just didn't want to involve him since he was a priest and could have gotten in trouble with the Archdiocese if he started helping her. 

[teddysmom]

Anyone else who saw Spotlight notice that Richard Sipe was featured in The Keepers?

He is an ex priest who started studying priests who abuse children.  They used his formulas to determine how many priests in Boston might be involved, based on the total number of priests in the Archdiocese.  And figured out that 13 was too low, he estimated 90 and I think they ended up with a figure in the high 80s. 

He wasn't seen in Spotlight, but was played by Richard Jenkins in phone conversations with the reporters.   John Slattery as Ben Bradlee Jr referred to him as a hippie shacked up with an ex nun.

Because I'm a glutton for punishment, I watched Spotlight again last night, and in the conversation with Mark Ruffalo's character,  Sipe mentions that he started out in Baltimore. 

I just found it interesting that his work is being used in so many of these abuse cases.  

[Kbilly]

The Freedom of Information Act stonewalling is so incredibly frustrating and I hope somehow this documentary stirs an outrage and provides SOMETHING to the Malecki family. The postscript that Don Malecki had died still waiting for answers shattered my heart, how it haunted him all of those years, identifying his sister's body and wanting an inch of justice. Just disgusts me.

This was heartbreaking to watch---I hope there is truth in what Jean said about the victims' voices finally breaking through.

[Kbilly]

My brother was murdered when he was 23 in 1999 and Marilyn had me weeping when she was talking about Kathy.  "A lot of people feel that you can't grieve a lifetime, you need to have closure. That's not it. You just miss somebody in your life...if it's five minutes if it's 45 years, you still miss that person and you still feel that loss." The siblings' pain was so real to me although at least my family got justice.

And to have received a final letter, her sister's final words, that she will never ever get to read  because they "lost" it ??? I can't even put into words.

The Koob vagina thing I had to rewind to made sure I heard that right. Like it was an interrogation tactic? What the hell??

[film noire]

22 minutes ago, Kbilly said:

My brother was murdered when he was 23 in 1999 and Marilyn had me weeping when she was talking about Kathy.  "A lot of people feel that you can't grieve a lifetime, you need to have closure. That's not it. You just miss somebody in your life...if it's five minutes if it's 45 years, you still miss that person and you still feel that loss." The siblings' pain was so real to me although at least my family got justice.

Condolences on your (ongoing) loss,KBilly.

Quote

The Koob vagina thing I had to rewind to made sure I heard that right. Like it was an interrogation tactic? What the hell??

That whole story was odd -- not necessarily untruthful, just odd. (eta: to be clear, of course it was "odd" - Cathy's labia wrapped in newspaper is beyond strange -- but in the telling, there was something odd.)

Edited May 23, 2017 by film noire

[kieyra]

16 minutes ago, film noire said:

Condolences on your (ongoing) loss,KBilly.

That whole story was odd -- not necessarily untruthful, just odd. (eta: to be clear, of course it was "odd" - Cathy's labia wrapped in newspaper is beyond strange -- but in the telling, there was something odd.)

Agree, and the prev.tv recap upthread wonders if Koob realized that just telling the story makes him look a little nuts. 

Edit: It's also interesting, speaking only for myself here, I've been a 'true crime' buff for a long time and seen all the Super! Serious! Serial! Killer! shows like True Detective, dug into all sorts of gruesome crime details because of that morbid curiosity/puzzle-solving thing that catches some of us. In short, I've seen and read a lot of unbelievably twisted stuff. 

... and even I was like 'yeah, I don't think that really happened'. 

Edited May 23, 2017 by kieyra

[Captanne]

That story was so bizarre that I found myself wishing they had just edited it out.  Up to that point I had found everything credible.  (Even the "office douches" which also border on my "bullshit-o-meter."  And I'm old enough to remember my Mother's personal bathroom hygiene accoutrements.)

Edited May 23, 2017 by Captanne

[teddysmom]

They're in Maryland maybe contacting Elijah Cummings to look into why the docs they want are taking so long?  I know sometimes people do ask their representatives in Congress to help with issues like this. 

I don't know why the FBI would care if they out Baltimore Police suppressing evidence in a murder.  Justice Dept has been on Baltimore's ass for a long time for the corruption. 

[Captanne]

Or ask Raskin.  He's terrific.

[film noire]

2 hours ago, kieyra said:

Agree, and the prev.tv recap upthread wonders if Koob realized that just telling the story makes him look a little nuts. 

That could be it; a moment of "WTF am I doing?" It could also be that (at the time) he wondered if it was a tactic on the part of the detective (if only because it was in newspaper, not an evidence bag) so his whole "I will never forgive him!" aria seems off due to his past doubts.  If it is true (the labia mailed to the cops, perhaps, wrapped in newspaper, a detail never revealed to the press) then there might be a pattern with the other women who went missing around the same period in Baltimore (Malecki, Pamela Lynn Conyers and Gay Montayne). I'd like to know if they had any signs of sexual mutilation in those cases, or (sexual mutilation aside) any pattern at all, beyond all four women going missing in shopping areas/malls (not that anyone is going to tell, especially with the cops recently saying they were looking into connections). And I'm wondering if there are disappearances predating Sister Cathy's murder. Maybe she stumbled onto something even more menacing than Maskill's depravity (hard as it is to imagine that).

Edited May 23, 2017 by film noire

[pamplemousse]

Why is the Catholic Church and its population of priests such a hotbed for pedophiles? Does its culture create pedophiles or are pedophiles attracted to it because of the power over and opportunities to interact with children, or a combination of both?

How can anyone still believe in Catholicism when it is abundantly clear that the Catholic Church has no goodwill or love towards its laity and no compunction in doing them grievous lifelong harm and have the utmost contempt for the people it is supposed to be serving?

[zxy556575]

Great points and incisive post, @film noire. A hundred virtual upvotes.

[CherryMalotte]

And to have received a final letter, her sister's final words, that she will never ever get to read  because they "lost" it ??? I can't even put into words.

That letter...I wonder about that.  I don't think Cathy would have written to her sister about any of the abuse, she was happy about her sister's engagement and wouldn't have dimmed it with her own concerns.  But I do wonder if there was something in there about her leaving the motherhouse, and her vows.  If some wrong sided officer read that and passed the information on there would be a reason to 'lose' it.  Or is it there in a folder somewhere and it's just been overlooked?  Something is up with that.  

[kieyra]

2 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

Why is the Catholic Church and its population of priests such a hotbed for pedophiles? Does its culture create pedophiles or are pedophiles attracted to it because of the power over and opportunities to interact with children, or a combination of both?

How can anyone still believe in Catholicism when it is abundantly clear that the Catholic Church has no goodwill or love towards its laity and no compunction in doing them grievous lifelong harm and have the utmost contempt for the people it is supposed to be serving?

Literally every time I've googled something about some tangential aspect of the documentary, I've found some other piece of *current day* info about the abuse scandals and the church's half-assed methods of dealing with them. Including multiple people, clergy and laity, who have stepped down from victim advisory panels in disgust, or claim to have been pushed out for whistleblowing. Not 20 years ago--right now.

[Cheezwiz]

I cannot even begin to comprehend the horrors this woman has had to endure. First from a family member, and then from someone who was supposed to be in  the ultimate position of trust, who  instead was an evil manipulator who capitalized on her past trauma.

When Jean told her story in such a straightforward manner, and then put her head down on the desk and burst into tears, I cried too. 

And that retired police officer Scannell? All I could think whenever I saw him on camera was "were you there, you bastard? Were you in the room when that abuse took place?"

The Catholic Church:  the world's oldest and most ruthless corporation.

[Captanne]

I can only imagine they left it in there so we question, seriously, Koob's sanity and credibility.  It goes to the core of "repressed-horror-memory" testimony.  We believe most of the women's memories and then they go one step too far with likeable-ole-Koob.  I'm sure he's got the best of intentions but it's almost as if he feels he has to one-up them.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Captanne

[Primetimer]

Or will these seven episodes haunt us enough?

View the full article

[IndianPaintbrush]

17 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

Why is the Catholic Church and its population of priests such a hotbed for pedophiles? Does its culture create pedophiles or are pedophiles attracted to it because of the power over and opportunities to interact with children, or a combination of both?

How can anyone still believe in Catholicism when it is abundantly clear that the Catholic Church has no goodwill or love towards its laity and no compunction in doing them grievous lifelong harm and have the utmost contempt for the people it is supposed to be serving?

Richard Sipe is a psychotherapist who has done extensive research on priests and sexuality.  The Boston Globe's Spotlight team used him in their reporting.  According to Sipe, the culture of celibacy and repressed sexuality is the main problem:

Quote

[Sipe] emphasizes that enforced celibacy makes the priesthood a very different social milieu from the world outside. Priests become sexually frustrated, so some turn to children in desperation. "There's strong psychological research showing that sexual deprivation can lead a person to turn to children," says Sipe.

And boys have always been far more accessible to priests than girls — on camping trips and athletic fields, in classrooms and as altar boys.

Many of those who became priests in the past entered boys' schools or seminaries as virgins in their mid-teens. In such cases, "they have no sexual orientation that they know of, they're immature and uneducated about sex," says Leslie Lothstein, director of psychology at the Institute of Living in Hartford, Conn., which has treated many abusive priests.

Young priests are disproportionately placed in youth ministries, "and they see all these exciting, attractive kids. They're vulnerable and start to experiment, the way a teenager might. It's opportunistic sex," Lothstein says. "Their rationalization is that they've preserved their chastity because they've not had sex with adults, and nobody gets pregnant."

Although recent reports focus on boys, "many priests are having sex with married women. It's severely underreported," adds Lothstein. And plenty of girls have been targeted, too, Sipe says.

I can see how this would be a huge problem for priests who were ordained before the 1960s. They were more likely to go straight from high school to seminary with no sexual experience. Add in a culture where pedophilia isn't talked about and the long-term effects on children aren't understood, and you have a recipe for disaster.

Edited May 24, 2017 by IndianPaintbrush

[WendyM]

If only "The Wire" had spent a season on this! Because it's looking like the Catholic Church is just as powerful and corrupt as drug lords and dirty cops. Maybe it would have provided a little fictional justice for the abused and murdered. I have no hope for the real thing.

[teddysmom]

If only "The Wire" had spent a season on this! Because it's looking like the Catholic Church is just as powerful and corrupt as drug lords and dirty cops. Maybe it would have provided a little fictional justice for the abused and murdered. I have no hope for the real thing.

OMG I was thinking the SAME thing yesterday! If only David Simon would write something about this for HBO.

[teddysmom]

On 5/22/2017 at 9:54 PM, Lord Donia said:

 

On 5/22/2017 at 9:14 PM, kieyra said:

But if my father was right about my grandfather, then you can see how the damage just gets passed down along the generations.

So true and despairingly sad. Makes me wonder how different Jean's life might have been if her mind hadn't stepped in to repress the horror and safeguard her.

 

Even sadder, I believe Friday (5/26) is the tenth anniversary of her husband's passing.  

Just saw this online.  I don't know if it's meant to help, or if it's just the police way of saying "fill this out, we'll get back to you".

But at least they're aware the heat is on. 

http://nymag.com/thecut/2017/05/the-keepers-baltimore-police-create-online-sex-offense-form.html

[kieyra]

I don't facebook but I had a feeling this would happen:

Overwhelmed with new members, Facebook group in 'The Keepers' shuts down

http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/tv/z-on-tv-blog/bs-fe-keepers-facebook-20170524-story.html

[Lyndy]

So lawyers out there. How much of the church's response is out of fear of litigation? As soon as they admit their wrongdoing, that's hundreds, possibly thousands of lawsuits, no? I mean, they're obviously not going to do the right thing for moral reasons (sadly). Maybe the bad PR is less of a problem than the millions of dollars they stand to lose.

All this to say the Catholic church in Baltimore is extremely messed up. How many hundreds of lives did they ruin trying to cover their own asses? This kind of story seems to repeat itself everywhere and I always find it appalling.

[Clanstarling]

This was a gut punch. It is one thing to intellectually know about this, quite another to hear the women tell their stories. 

I once explained to my husband how dangerous it is for a girl/woman, reciting my own close encounters (comparatively mild, very mild), and it took time for him to understand how different the world is when you're a girl. But he looked heart broken watching this episode. I think I'll be watching it alone from now on.

[Pogojoco]

I still don't think it's that much of a stretch for the two cases to be related. Joyce Malecki's case didn't get as much time, but I think it was more than just Gemma and Abby's research that brought it together. Ryan White, in this interview, mentions how close Joyce and her family lived to where Maskell lived and abused children. Her brothers walked past that house every day to go to school.

Even if Maskell wasn't directly involved, it is a tremendous coincidence  that both women disappeared from the same neighbourhood within 4 days. It might just be that it's a reflection of something very, very rotten in Baltimore. 

[BellyLaughter]

As the series progressed I became less convinced that Sister Cathy's murder was linked to the abuse she was intending to fight at the school.  Not ruling it out but there appeared to be elements of sexual mutilation to the crime which in my mind don't fit with a murder that's simply about shutting someone up....??  

Did I read too much into the sexual elements of her murder??  This seemed to be hinted at but not really focused on during the episodes??

Overall this was a gut wrenchingly sad thing to watch....my heart goes out to all the victims of that horrible man.....and the many other victims of the Catholic church....using people's faith to abuse them is absolutely abhorrent and then refusing to take action when the abuse surfaces is about as unGodly as a human could possible behave.  What a disgrace.

They were children.....

[Bnwcat]

I got chills when Barbara was talking about the creepy "nun" chasing her in the car and then when she described the nun mannequin in the attic. What the heck was that about?? So bizarre.

Random aside-I loved how the camera focused on her house decorations and that they included her description of her dogs!

[Maire]

That vagina wrapped in newspaper is some Hannibal Lecter level crazy. Made me doubt the rest of his story. He is high on my list of suspects, higher than crazy Uncle Ed.

[NewGranny]

I just watched this episode and my god, I am just horrified by what these girls went through but I am also blown away by their courage.

I was raised Catholic and my grandmother still goes to church a couple of times a week and never misses on Sunday, but atrocities like this are why I no longer believe in organized religion.  I have faith and believe in God but not religion.

[formerlyfreedom]

I tend to suspect that the 'vagina in newspaper' wasn't actually Cathy's - I think it's something the police came up with to try and shock him. And yeah, it does make him sound insane. But he was a Catholic priest - it wouldn't be hard for the to find something from a butcher and just tell him that's what it was. Even if they had been intimate, it's not something that I'd guess most men would be able to easily identify about their partner by that means?

And that's way more thinking on this topic then I ever wanted to have...

[film noire]

15 hours ago, saoirse said:

it's not something that I'd guess most men would be able to easily identify about their partner by that means?

Never mind any partner, I'd have a hard time identifying my own labia wrapped up in newspaper -- jesus.

Edited May 26, 2017 by film noire

[PrincessSteel]

The sister of Sister Cathy has iron self control. If a piece of mail arrived from my beloved missing sister I would rip that puppy open with my teeth and read it through before the envelope hit the floor.