S05.E12: The World Council of Churches

[Eulipian 5k]

Sorry, after reading several posts about lazy, stupid, sloppy, and boring writers of the show we're all watching, I thought I might present my opinion, and snark, about the developments of the plot, as written by the professionals, YMMV indeed.

[EtheltoTillie]

16 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Tuan seems to have forgotten that the point of getting Evgenia back to Moscow is to use the affair with the CIA guy against him. If her son kills himself she'll probably have zero interest in having an affair. She already felt guilty about it when she saw Alexei trying and having her kid attempt suicide would give her every reason to dump her boyfriend and concentrate on her son along with the other person who cares about him. 

I wish I felt like I could track Tuan's whole deal better. He starts out being a crazy OTT agent who seems to want to shoot everyone in the head, especially this Pasha kid. Then he's constantly asking Philip and Elizabeth to spend more time there for reasons that aren't completely made clear--it doesn't seem like their absence was noticed, so was it personal? Then he gets caught calling his foster brother--was this the result of his loneliness at not having the these two people around? Then he goes back to being bloodthirsty and also reckless, coming up with a violent plan without even talking about it with his partners. Is this his way of making up for the phone call? I feel like it should be easier to *see* how these things fit together instead of my having to speculate at how I guess these things seem related.

I mean, I can't help but compare him to S2's Lucia who was so clear having a similar arc. 

You are exactly right about Evgenia.  Oy.

Interesting that right before the suicide suggestion, Tuan asked Elizabeth if she had kids and what it was like.  (She gave a noncommittal answer.)  This was interesting for two reasons:  First, it shows how little he knew about them before the mission.  Their real identities are secret from him.  But also he seemed to want to know what it was like to be a parent.  Then he turns around and suggests this insane scheme that had a complete lack of empathy for a parent.  Yikes is all I can say.

Beeman and Aderholt continue to be the Spies That Couldn't Shoot Straight, or at least they are being directed to be that by Peter Jacobson.  It started from their clumsy approaches to random Soviets in the street.  Wouldn't they be afraid this would expose them?  Is the purpose of that a hope that the targets will report back to the KGB and then result in more double agent info?  I just don't understand. 

I loved the very sweet scene where Mischa meets his uncle and nephew and the wife, plus it gave us an insight into how Phillip was recruited as a youth.  The Soviets used to recruit the Olympic athletes this way too.

Edited May 24, 2017 by GussieK

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, GussieK said:

Beeman and Aderholt continue to be the Spies That Couldn't Shoot Straight, or at least they are being directed to be that by Peter Jacobson.  It started from their clumsy approaches to random Soviets in the street.  Wouldn't they be afraid this would expose them?  Is the purpose of that a hope that the targets will report back to the KGB and then result in more double agent info?  I just don't understand. 

They didn't care they were being exposed. They don't have to worry about that, they're FBI agents. They can work out in the open. They discussed that there was no problem in the KGB knowing they were doing that. It was sow seeds of paranoia in them and give ideas to anybody who might be interested, so it was no big deal. It's not like the KGB doesn't know exactly who these two are already. 

[SunnyBeBe]

REF. the question upthead that was in response to my post about Russian spy policy on killing kids:  Actually, I was referring to Jared, from Season 2.  But, I had forgotten that he was shot by someone else when defending P & E.  He had murdered his parents and young sister, due to their objection to him becoming a teen spy.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_(The_Americans)

[Chaos Theory]

It is possible to read the Pastor Tim story as a man just as conflicted as everyone else.  He likes the Jennings but believes P&E is doing harm to Paige.  He is trying to counsel them all as best he can without blowing up their family because he still believes that despite everything they are good people.   

Being a man of God he wants to help them all.

[Inquisitionist]

13 hours ago, benteen said:

I don't buy Elizabeth and Philip telling Pastor Tim about this.  All I have to say it run Henry, run!

At the risk of beating a dead лошадь', I'll add that this scene felt surreal to me.  I could understand P&E wanting to have a final meeting with Pastor Tim to suss out his current views about Paige and them, but I could not understand why they'd share this very real information with him. 

13 hours ago, Erin9 said:

 Henry made dinner. That was so nice and thoughtful. He's a good kid really. Of course, it happens just as his parents are thinking about going home and there will be no boarding school....no guilt there.  

I also have a hard time believing how blind they are being about Henry.  Taking him to Russia is not "going home" for Henry, or even Paige.  It is being consigned to hell.

12 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I don't understand Stan's boss wanting to move so slowly. In a recent episode, there were several FBI agents discussing how couriers have a "weak spot" when they carry their pouches into a bathroom and one goes inside a stall. Remember? Well this hockey player is now a courier and he is offering his services for cheap. Why doesn't the FBI jump on it?

Interestingly, I heard someone talking about Russian spycraft on a news show recently and emphasizing how patient the Russians are in cultivating relationships for the long game, while the American approach is quick, perhaps too quick.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

13 hours ago, Knuckles said:

I did think that Paige was going to hang herself...

My I add my crush on Alderholt is still going strong.

Ditto and ditto! 

Hubby immediately knew she was setting up a martial arts punching bag ...

And Brandon Dirden outdid himself in last night's episode ... he has stealthily just won my heart with his little "I'm trying not to laugh" expressions.

11 hours ago, pennben said:

I feel like the ending was Phillip intentionally blowing their cover. They both want out, she wants to go back to Russia, he doesn't and doesn't want to take the kids there. He's done and he'd rather it blow up here. Him taking her hand was his "hang on...here we go" moment.

i could be wrong..at a minimum,however, it is clear he is D.O.N.E. with all of this now.

I have no doubt (though that said I rarely predict these things correctly) that this season will end with Philip and Henry staying here and Elizabeth and Paige going to the Soviet Union, which will give us the cliffhanger and the conflict for the final season.

[EtheltoTillie]

3 minutes ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Ditto and ditto! 

Hubby immediately knew she was setting up a martial arts punching bag ...

 

I've seen a number of posts about hanging, and I'm surprised.  That did not cross my mind at all.  I figured it was the punching bag. 

41 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

They didn't care they were being exposed. They don't have to worry about that, they're FBI agents. They can work out in the open. They discussed that there was no problem in the KGB knowing they were doing that. It was sow seeds of paranoia in them and give ideas to anybody who might be interested, so it was no big deal. It's not like the KGB doesn't know exactly who these two are already. 

I still don't get the logistics here.  Beeman and Aderholt are exposing the targets to big risk of being observed talking to them or reporting back to KGB for being targeted.  So the later secrecy in setting up the meetings and the special apartment seems to be easily cracked.   

Fake uncle?  An interesting theory!

[RedHawk]

I have real trouble understanding P&E going to Pastor Tim like that, especially two months before he leaves. I can buy that they are working him in some way, using his weaknesses against him and helping keep up the pretense that they're all fighting the "good fight", and also that they actually are interested in what he has to say about Paige. Confusing and a little annoying, but I'll wait and see.

Not yet convinced that Uncle Pyotr is really Philip's brother. I keep remembering those crutches in Philip's childhood hovel and wondering what they meant. Clearly Philip's dad was not disabled, as we saw when he was playing airplanes with Philip. I don't think we saw Uncle Pyotr walk though. Then we had that conversation between Paige and P&E about taking and using the real name of a dead person. I'd be happy for Misha if he really has found family, yet it seemed like such a setup when his little cousin said: "I'm not supposed to ask about Uncle Misha." And why did Misha not tell his age? Does he think he seems more cool to his young cousin if he seems like a teenager rather than an "older" guy of 20-21?

Edited May 24, 2017 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, GussieK said:

I've seen a number of posts about hanging, and I'm surprised.  That did not cross my mind at all.  I figured it was the punching bag. 

44 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, didn't she even tie the laundry bag first? That's no counterweight.

3 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I have real trouble understanding P&E going to Pastor Tim like that, especially two months before he leaves. I can buy that they are working him in some way, using his weaknesses against him and helping keep up the pretense that they're all fighting the "good fight", and also that they actually are interested in what he has to say about Paige. Confusing and a little annoying, but I'll wait and see.

 

The weird thing is it's not like they were even getting his expertise where he is an expert--as an American who was raised in the US. If he's just going to talk about challenges and blah blah why do they need that to come from them? They could say that themselves. I figured the only real good he had was as a person who could say how he'd have reacted as a teenager to moving to Russia or whatever. Maybe talk about kids whose parents were missionaries. Speaking of which.

14 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

I also have a hard time believing how blind they are being about Henry.  Taking him to Russia is not "going home" for Henry, or even Paige.  It is being consigned to hell.

I disagree. Like I said, I appreciated the way Pastor Tim talked about the possibility without getting too hysterical about it. As someone who's into missionary work he would not see it as impossible for kids to adjust to incredibly different conditions after living in middle class US.

Obviously, it's not good to do this to either kid. Of course it would be a huge blow to them and a risk that they would never adjust well enough. But kids have been yanked to other countries--even oppressive ones--before and survived. Maybe they'd just wind up entering the 21st century as bilingual people who were more citizens of the world than they would have been going to St. Edwards and George Washington. I don't think this makes them blind about Henry, in particular. They can obviously see that he's got his life for the next few years planned out for himself at his ritzy boarding school with his girlfriend but he wouldn't be the first kid to be in that position and have it all fall apart and survive.

5 minutes ago, GussieK said:

I still don't get the logistics here.  Beeman and Aderholt are exposing the targets to big risk of being observed talking to them or reporting back to KGB for being targeted.  So the later secrecy in setting up the meetings and the special apartment seems to be easily cracked.   

Which they didn't care about at all. Why should they? The KGB knows the FBI is going to try to chat up their people, and that's not a problem for the FBI. And why would they care if the KGB knows they're doing they're job? They're the police in this country. They're intentionally swinging their weight around in broad daylight.

11 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Not yet convinced that Uncle Pyotr is really Philip's brother. I keep remembering those crutches in Philip's childhood hovel and wondering what they

I would love it if those crutches came into play somehow. 

12 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

And why did Misha not tell his age? Does he think he seems more cool to his young cousin if he seems like a teenager rather than an "older" guy of 20-21?

I thought that was a really interesting decision too. Though it could just show that the guy's been through so much in the last few years he's no longer a kid who counts his birthdays. 

17 minutes ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

I have no doubt (though that said I rarely predict these things correctly) that this season will end with Philip and Henry staying here and Elizabeth and Paige going to the Soviet Union, which will give us the cliffhanger and the conflict for the final season.

It seems like so many people make this assumption and why would they ever decide on this? First, Paige has as little interest in moving to the USSR as Henry does. Second, why would Elizabeth retire while Philip stayed in the game? It's like it's assumed that Philip and Henry are the American ones when actually it's Paige and Henry who are the American ones.

[burghgal]

In regards to Paige, I thought she was going to hang herself as well.  In a way, I wonder if the authors were trying to lead us to that conclusion, so that they could then come back and say "No, she wants to fight".  I am a little over her storyline as its seems to be one big circle, if we are going to concentrate on Paige than I want to see her "typical day". I'd like to see her away from the family/Pastor Tim/neighbor boy dynamic, and see her interact with teachers/friends/brother, or even research the Soviet Union some more.  It seems like once her parents told her the secret, she shut down her "investigative" and suspicious ways and stayed more in the house/to herself -- which doesn't seem to further the storyline.  Then again, maybe the writers have something up their sleeve :-).

I do hope there is a good payoff next week.  I think some of this season has been interesting mainly as it relates to the Soviet system (i.e., Oleg/Misha/grain plotline) and how it was heading into Peristroika.  I'd like the Henry, Martha, Misha, and Stan  storylines to go somewhere. 

[MegK]

Quote

 

The centre may actually be getting that their 2nd generation spy plan is pretty flawed. That kid in S2 and all the struggles with Paige may have driven that home. It should have. It's notable that NO ONE has brought up Henry spying. He's the right age now to start pushing it. But they haven't. 

 

Is it possible the Centre is actually the force behind Henry's move to a boarding school, in the same way it got Pastor Tim that job offer? They know that Henry's a math whiz, they know about his close relationship with an FBI agent — they surely have to regard turning Henry as a top priority in the 2nd-gen plan. They also know that Paige's transition isn't going so well with P&E at the wheel. If Henry were in boarding school, all they'd have to do is plant a teacher and/or a student to slowly work on turning him, then bring P&E into the picture later.

[Shriekingeel]

Quote

I did think that Paige was going to hang herself

Was I the only one who thought that Oleg was going to throw himself into the Moscow River?

 

Quote

I suspect Tuan has no clue that Pasha has been pushed to the point of embracing that relief. He explained things to P&E as if it were a chess move...with no sense of the emotional consequences, or the possible reactions of the Morozovs. Whatever the horrors of his story in Vietnam, and his cleverness, Tuan is useless...he can't gauge human reactions. He's a short term player, with no view of a longer game. This move could hideously backfire, a concept he does not grasp.

 

Tuan also has no idea of the mortal danger he is in. P&E will cap him in an instant if they ever decide he's an operational liability. (Cf. poor Hans)

Edited May 24, 2017 by Shriekingeel

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Pastor Groovyhair Prepares To Pack Up His Mousse And Blow Out Of The Americans

Elsewhere, Oleg tries to be a force for good; Tuan escalates hostilities against Pasha; and Henry makes asparagus!

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, MegK said:

Is it possible the Centre is actually the force behind Henry's move to a boarding school, in the same way it got Pastor Tim that job offer? They know that Henry's a math whiz, they know about his close relationship with an FBI agent — they surely have to regard turning Henry as a top priority in the 2nd-gen plan. They also know that Paige's transition isn't going so well with P&E at the wheel. If Henry were in boarding school, all they'd have to do is plant a teacher and/or a student to slowly work on turning him, then bring P&E into the picture later.

First, I don't see why they'd think the Paige transition isn't going well. It is going well. She's not behind where she's supposed to be at all.

Sending Henry to this boarding school and knowing he's friends with Stan would be, imo, like in Monty Python and the Holy Grail where they put the wooden rabbit through the gates and only then remember that they're supposed to be inside it. At this point they're just creating an actual American agent, not a 2nd generation Illegal.

[RedHawk]

12 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

It was so super sweet that Elizabeth wanted to take Philip's name. It wasn't common in the Soviet Union for a woman to change her name when she married, and in fact my mother would still be using her maiden name if it hadn't made things less complicated when they came to America for her and my father and sister to share a name. (Incidentally, my parent's were married May 24th 1984, and tomorrow's their 33rd anniversary. I like to amuse myself watching them both forget or I would have brought it up to them by now.)

PinkRibbons: Happy 33rd Anniversary to your parents! The dinner Henry and Chris cooked for the family included asparagus (fresh only in spring), and in the show's timeline it's likely late April or early May 1984, so very near to when your parents got married.

There have been few date signifiers this season. They used to include one almost every episode, or maybe I'm not paying close attention. Not a lot of time has passed since the season began so I'm guessing we're not past early May as there was no mention of "soon school will be out for the summer and Pasha can get away from those bullies". Wouldn't they at least think of that? Or wait, I forgot that summer (like holidays) does not exist in the world of this show. ;-)

Anyone else think P&E's reaction to the dinner was not as enthusiast as it should have been? I get it, Philip is especially aware that he is planning to disrupt Henry's entire education future plus break up his budding relationship with Chris, but he could have acted like a typical dad who had accepted that his son would go to boarding school. Or I guess that shows how much he is slipping, that he can't hide his conflicted feelings. Maybe Henry has picked up on the conflict still being there, and that Elizabeth hasn't signed off 100% yet, hence the  dinner was a manipulation. I prefer to think that Henry and Chris just came up with the idea and it's a genuine gesture and also indicates Henry's happiness and maturation.

The relationship with Chris may also begin to remind him of his with Misha's mother. Henry is younger but it's still, possibly, first love.

Edited May 24, 2017 by RedHawk

[MisterBluxom]

WRT Paige and the bag she was using. I'm surprised no one seems to have offered any opinion as to why she has decided now would be a good time to get back to practicing her self-defence tactics.

Was it somehow related to her loss of faith in religion? Did she sense some potential future physical danger?

I thought it was very interesting there didn't appear to be any obvious cause for this behavior and I'm wondering if anyone here has any idea just what might have prompted this.

Also, no matter how I think of that scene between Stan and his partner and the lady (I forget her name) and her hockey player fiance, that scene just seems to be lacking any real believability. Either the hockey player is a double agent or he isn't. But either way, it just makes no sense to me. Does anyone think they understand what is really going on here?

Also, the scene with Henry making dinner just seems so far out into left field that it's as if it's from another show. What can be the purpose of this scene? It is almost impossible for me to imagine any kind of answer to this. Some people might say it's to get us and P & E to think about what it would be like to take Henry to Russia. But I just can't see how it does that. This scene totally mystifies me. Can anyone suggest why it was included? What was the point?

Edited May 24, 2017 by MissBluxom

[RedHawk]

I felt that by doing the punching bag Paige was reacting to Elizabeth putting the necklace right back around her neck. Paige is not as "free" as she thought she was, so she's back into training -- and maybe letting out stress and anger. We could also see it as a sign that she has completely bought into herself as being "one of them", a budding spy, because she's now thinking that P&E are these heroes, fighting for "justice" and she's switched from religion and Pastor Tim to her parents' Cause. (Exactly what Elizabeth wanted, but...)

To me, there was something of anger there. They took away her religion, her faith in higher power that was helping her. Now she knows the pastor she trusted thinks her parents have totally screwed her up. I think nothing feels certain for her, and she doesn't really know what to think of P&E's "work". Paige of 1 year ago would be horrified that they "stole" the identity of dead Americans and assumed those names, then gave her and her brother that fake, stolen name. Now she's curious about it but seems to accept? Well, it's two months before Pastor Tim leaves, so I think there' still room for her to freak out and run to him when she is told about the Russia plan, and for Henry to run to Stan. 

[MegK]

Quote

 

First, I don't see why they'd think the Paige transition isn't going well. It is going well. She's not behind where she's supposed to be at all.

Sending Henry to this boarding school and knowing he's friends with Stan would be, imo, like in Monty Python and the Holy Grail where they put the wooden rabbit through the gates and only then remember that they're supposed to be inside it. At this point they're just creating an actual American agent, not a 2nd generation Illegal.

 

Paige seems to be coming around now, but things certainly haven't gone smoothly — the first thing she did was divulge their secret to Pastor Tim, a move that could have (and still might) blow the whole thing and put P&E in prison.

As for Henry, a second-gen spy who might be able to get a job in the FBI thanks to a friendship with an agent who's in the dark seems pretty much like the Centre's wet dream.

Not saying the Centre being behind it is necessarily what's happening, but it's an idea. There surely must be some payoff to Henry suddenly having a storyline.

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Anyone else think P&E's reaction to the dinner was not as enthusiast as it should have been? I get it, Philip is especially aware that he is planning to disrupt Henry's entire education future plus break up his budding relationship with Chris, but he could have acted like a typical dad who had accepted that his son would go to boarding school.

I think it was still weird enough that their reactions were totally realistic. It was a big oversized gesture of THANK YOU about the school from a kid who usually has to be reminded to say thank you just as a formality. Frankly, if I'd walked in on that dinner I would probably have been more wary than they were and I'm not a spy. But ultimately they seemed to take it as amusing and a nice thing. While of course being guilty about the whole life he's planning that they may yank out from under him. (Which is yet another reason I still keep hoping it'll get yanked away from him before it even comes to that.)

1 minute ago, RedHawk said:

I felt that by doing the punching bag Paige was reacting to Elizabeth putting the necklace right back around her neck. Paige is not as "free" as she thought she was, so she's back into training -- and maybe letting out stress and a

I took it that now that she was finally feeling free she felt strong and was taking control of her training herself. So basically, I thought it was the opposite of her being angry. She was finally able to fight.

[RedHawk]

20 minutes ago, Shriekingeel said:

Tuan also has no idea of the mortal danger he is in. P&E will cap him in an instant if they ever decide he's an operational liability. (Cf. poor Hans)

I wouldn't spend a second feeling bad for that guy.

I was sad about Hans, but Elizabeth had actually given him a second chance once. The swift execution in this case was a kindness.

[Gella]

Funny thing is that Henry would do very well in a Russian school, provided it were one of those "English immersion" schools where he'd probably end up. He seems quite sociable, he is a math geek, he is "cool", he has perfect English. Paige probably would have more trouble adjusting. 

But I don't think P&E have thought this through any more than well they've moved when they were very young and they survived so why wouldn't their children?  And more to the point I don't see the Centre giving up on second gen spies so easily. 

Once again, I really wish the writers would stop  with the incessantly depressing drab showing of the Soviet side, it drags the show down unnecessarily. The problem wasn't that people had nothing. The problem was that one had to hustle and scheme and use "connections" to get anything. There is a scene in "Irony of Fate" where the two protagonists discuss how much each gave "under the table" for the new identical Polish wall unit in their respective apartments. Nothing was straight, everyone was jaded and either on a take or actively dealing with people on a take, and corruption permeated every level of society, but it could certainly make for very interesting material. But the way it is written and filmed I just don't understand why anyone bothers to wake up in the morning, and it's a disservice to some really good acting by Krutonog and Ronin and others. 

I most certainly don't want to see an entire season of P&E in Moscow, and I hope it never goes there. 

As an aside we are getting somewhat close to April 1986 and I wonder what Phillip would make of that disaster. 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Gella said:

Once again, I really wish the writers would stop  with the incessantly depressing drab showing of the Soviet side, it drags the show down unnecessarily. The problem wasn't that people had nothing. The problem was that one had to hustle and scheme and use "connections" to get anything. There is a scene in "Irony of Fate" where the two protagonists discuss how much each gave "under the table" for the new identical Polish wall unit in their respective apartments. Nothing was straight, everyone was jaded and either on a take or actively dealing with people on a take, and corruption permeated every level of society, but it could certainly make for very interesting material. But the way it is written and filmed I just don't understand why anyone bothers to wake up in the morning, and it's a disservice to some really good acting by Krutonog and Ronin and others. 

It makes me suddenly want to compare it to The Wire. That was another show that dealt with people living in often very dire circumstances, but they were full of energy and were often funny and the world crackled. I can see how at some levels USSR-society might just feel like it was disintegrating (like the docks storyline in S2 The Wire) but lots of people would be out there hustling. 

Another thing I thought watching this ep was how it seems like I've seen so many Russian movies where people are eating and it's all very cheerful and loud and everyone's talking. On this show all the Russian meal scenes feel so repressed and silent. 

3 minutes ago, Gella said:

Funny thing is that Henry would do very well in a Russian school, provided it were one of those "English immersion" schools where he'd probably end up. He seems quite sociable, he is a math geek, he is "cool", he has perfect English. Paige probably would have more trouble adjusting. 

 

Yeah, honestly, I don't want to underestimate the difficulty for Henry but I can easily see him coming through the transition and becoming a really interesting guy with an interesting life.

[Inquisitionist]

28 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 Obviously, it's not good to do this to either kid. Of course it would be a huge blow to them and a risk that they would never adjust well enough. But kids have been yanked to other countries--even oppressive ones--before and survived. Maybe they'd just wind up entering the 21st century as bilingual people who were more citizens of the world than they would have been going to St. Edwards and George Washington. I don't think this makes them blind about Henry, in particular. They can obviously see that he's got his life for the next few years planned out for himself at his ritzy boarding school with his girlfriend but he wouldn't be the first kid to be in that position and have it all fall apart ...

How many of those yanked kids also learned, upon arriving in the country they'd been taught is the Evil Empire, that their parents have been lying to them since birth?  I think Henry would view this as a much bigger betrayal than Paige did, especially under the circumstances of suddenly finding himself in Moscow without warning.  It would be like a kidnaping, since it's not P&E in reality who are whisking him off, but some Russian couple that he literally does not know.  I can't wrap my head around P&E fretting about how quickly the kids will learn a new language, rather than how quickly Henry will rip their heads off.  :-)

[RedHawk]

9 minutes ago, Gella said:

As an aside we are getting somewhat close to April 1986 and I wonder what Phillip would make of that disaster. 

We are two years away from April 1986. It's spring 1984 in show time.

Ah, but I realize you're just asking what he might think, not how he'll react on the show.

Edited May 24, 2017 by RedHawk

[minamurray78]

I'm not sure it's completely OOC for P & E to go talk to Pastor Tim. He is the only person who knows the truth about them but holds no designs over their kids unlike the centre. I believe they thought he would give them an unbiassed opinion about how the moving could affect their kids. Because if PT objections were about them being spies, he would have ratted them out to the FBI a long time ago. Idealogically and politically he's hasn't been shown to be 100% opposite them and their beliefs. I think the writers made a mistake though using the words "child abuse" because it puts PT under a more negative light for making that comparison rather than pointing out what he´s observed, which is that Paige clearly hasn't handled the revelation that well and she's shown signs of stress or trauma from watching her mom efficiently dispatch someone albeit in self-defense, although PT does not know that's the reason. He's dull and annoying and his storylines dragged, but I think he genuinely cared about Paige's mental and spiritual well being, he never gave me the impession his concern was that a couple of commie spies would polute the minds of american born children who needed to be saved from them. Or maybe I was just too  bored during his scenes to notice this. He should have left a long time ago, and Paige's storyline could have evolved into something else (ie either indoctrination or rebellion) by now.

Also, Tuan is just too immature, young, and a bit (or a lot) cold blooded and not ready to make decisions. Because he clearly doesn't take into consideration emotions that people can have, and how difficult it is to predict the reactions parents can have after the dramatic death of their only child. How can he be sure the mother will want to go back to Russia? What if she's way to depressed to give a shit, and stays sitting her sorrow away at her american house? What if she doesn't care anymore what her husband thinks and therefore cannot be coerced into carrying on with the affair? What if her husband doesn't even care about the affair after that? A whole lot of umpredictable outcomes, and an operation that took months of work, all down the drain. Not to mention, what a fucking horrid thing to do, suggesting to fake commit suicide with actual injuries to a kid you pretended to befriend but pulled the strings to be bullied. Even Elizabeth felt like shit about what she did to Young Hee and husband. I don't know, it's like he's already broken. 

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

How many of those yanked kids also learned, upon arriving in the country they'd been taught is the Evil Empire, that their parents have been lying to them since birth? 

I don't know. But like I said, I'm not trying to play down how hard it would be. The lying to them since birth would be a big blow on its own, obviously. I just don't agree that it would be literal hell and the kids would commit suicide and never be able to adjust. And it's not like kids at the time thought it was an Evil Empire like an actual cartoon evil empire.

That said, I agree it would be kidnapping to do it the way Claudia said and at the very least I'd hope they wouldn't do that. It's what Alexei did to his kid and they weren't even going to the USSR. I just don't think that it's impossible to imagine kids surviving this kind of transition and even having full lives. Depends on the kid, really, and both kids seem like they've got what it takes. There are stories of people moving from one country to another where neither country is a big change in quality of life and they can't stand it and go back. 

[Gella]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It makes me suddenly want to compare it to The Wire. That was another show that dealt with people living in often very dire circumstances, but they were full of energy and were often funny and the world crackled. I can see how at some levels USSR-society might just feel like it was disintegrating (like the docks storyline in S2 The Wire) but lots of people would be out there hustling. 

Another thing I thought watching this ep was how it seems like I've seen so many Russian movies where people are eating and it's all very cheerful and loud and everyone's talking. On this show all the Russian meal scenes feel so repressed and silent. 

Yeah, honestly, I don't want to underestimate the difficulty for Henry but I can easily see him coming through the transition and becoming a really interesting guy with an interesting life.

Yes, a thousand times. Russians love to eat (and drink) and even in the darkest times there is always gallows humour at the dinner table. And all the "Moscow" eating scenes on the show are sadder than a funeral. Oleg is a young man with plenty of prospects yet he has no friends? No former classmates? All he does is go to work and come home to lovingly gaze at his mother or morosely drink with his dad. 

[tennisgurl]

I bet Elizabeth is longing for the days when her most troublesome asset was that super intense South American girl. Yeah she got herself killed constantly trying to kill an American operative, but at least she could have a conversation without seething about the evils of America. Tuan is not only unbelievable cold, even by this shows standards, he sucks at being a spy. Having Pasha kill himself, even if he lives, is going to totally backfire on them, if Tuan actually cares about their objective. If Pasha kills himself or attempts it, his mom isn't going to be interesting in having an affair, which is the whole point of all of this, right? He only thinks short term, and his disdain for just about everyone and everything makes him unable to understand how people think, and how his actions could fit into the bigger picture. Maybe he could become better as he gets older and gets more perspective, but I don't know if he's surviving this season. He seems to overestimate his importance to the Center and to P & E.

Speaking of characters in danger, Oleg and his family are just breaking my heart. I've actually really enjoyed his story this season, for the most part, I've enjoyed seeing the inside of the soviet system, and watching Oleg learn more about his family history while also trying to stay ahead of the people investigating him provided most of the tension of the season, to be honest. Oleg's dad isn't the nicest, warmest guy, but he really does love his family, and I really felt for him this week. He couldn't protect his wife or his now deceased son, but he is still trying so hard to protect his son, even though he has no idea what he's actually protecting him from, or how much trouble Oleg is really in. I especially loved the line where he said he wanted to protect him "not just because your my son, but because your good". Because that's why all this shit is happening to him. Oleg is a good person and wanted to do the right thing to help innocent people, and now it looks like his life will be ruined because of it. It seems like they've figured out what went down in DC, they're just waiting to get proof, because Oleg's dad is too important to just drag Oleg in and make him disappear. Also, Oleg needs to stop being pensive next to high places. Its making me very nervous.

Really, I think Henry could actually be alright in Russia, mainly because he's an outgoing, generally positive kid, and he seems to fit in with whoever he's with at the time. Once he gets used to the truth, he might do alright. Paige is the one who I think would struggle more, mainly because she seems to have started idealizing the USSR and Marxism, and it will be a huge blow to her to see what things are really like back in the USSR. Plus, the teens of Russia also apparently live in a land where its always vaguely blue and tinted, and no one knows how to turn on a damn light, so her constant sad faces and wet blanket personality isn't going to make her many friends.

I'm glad that Mischa is out of jail/mental hospital, and that he found some family. On the other hand, I'm still super salty that he and Philip never met up. Look, I know this show likes to do things we don't expect, but spending all that time on Mischa trying to find Philip, and never finding him, and Philip never finding out that he made it to the US, is one hell of an anti-climax. I guess they can still do something with it (especially if the family actually does move back home) but its just so ridiculous that we spent so much time on something that meant basically nothing.

I don't think I disliked this season as much as some people (I enjoyed the themes of parents/children, food issues, and disillusionment) and I still love the characters, so I enjoy just wanting them do their things, but it just feels like nothing really happened, especially compared to all the excitement of last season. This show has always been slow paced, which is one of the things I like about it, but this season is just inching by with no real momentum, plus losing a lot of the supporting characters really hurt it. I like most of the new characters, but I didn't really connect with them like a lot of the supporting characters past. I'm also just so over Paige, its not even funny. I actually started off liking Paige, and have enjoyed some of her journey after she found out the secret, but she has just taken up so much of the show now. I'm not that interested in the further adventures of Americas Saddest Teenager and Pastor Groovy Hair.

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

Not yet convinced that Uncle Pyotr is really Philip's brother. I keep remembering those crutches in Philip's childhood hovel and wondering what they meant. Clearly Philip's dad was not disabled, as we saw when he was playing airplanes with Philip. I don't think we saw Uncle Pyotr walk though. Then we had that conversation between Paige and P&E about taking and using the real name of a dead person. I'd be happy for Misha if he really has found family, yet it seemed like such a setup when his little cousin said: "I'm not supposed to ask about Uncle Misha." And why did Misha not tell his age? Does he think he seems more cool to his young cousin if he seems like a teenager rather than an "older" guy of 20-21?

That's an interesting thought. I assumed that Pyotr is actually Misha's uncle and that Gabriel - and his overwhelming sense of guilt - had arranged for the two to meet. However, perhaps it is a set-up and poor Misha is being played for one reason or another. I hope not - I like the guy.

23 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I wouldn't spend a second feeling bad for that guy.

I was sad about Hans, but Elizabeth had actually given him a second chance once. The swift execution in this case was a kindness.

Tuan is a creep. Yeah, yeah...he has had a rough time of it...along with everyone else on this show. He gets no passes from me for instructing another teen on how to "fake" suicide. I'm surprised that Phillip didn't put him thru a wall.

[Chaos Theory]

Despite everything Paige is growing up and growing into herself.  I did don't think she was going to kill herself atvall..  if anything I thought the moment was her signaling her being finally ready to fight.  What is that expression about "Childish things?"...

Anyway I think it is interesting that Henry is the one who isnt the least bit conflicted about what he wants or needs.  He knows who he is.  Ignoring Henry might have been the greatest gift P&E could have given him.  

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, Gella said:

Oleg is a young man with plenty of prospects yet he has no friends? No former classmates? All he does is go to work and come home to lovingly gaze at his mother or morosely drink with his dad. 

OMG, yes! I get that the show is often focusing so much on their own stories that it seems like nobody has friends except for them to be threatening to someone. But you'd think that part of showing Oleg coming back to the USSR should have been exactly this. He could talk to a friend or friends about what was going on, there'd be a sense of how people around his age deal with the corruption. Most importantly, he could have a friend who was funny, tried to get Oleg to have some fun. It seems like a guy like Oleg would have friends like that, especially since he would have grown up among other elite guys. They'd want to take him out. They'd probably have fun with girls who weren't chosen by his father as a future bride.

9 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Really, I think Henry could actually be alright in Russia, mainly because he's an outgoing, generally positive kid, and he seems to fit in with whoever he

Yes, that's totally a thing I think they've somewhat established with Henry that isn't coming across imo. (Maybe I'm reading him wrong, of course.) People talk about how Henry is "surprising" his parents as proof that they've so neglected him that he's a stranger, but the show's explicitly stated that this is Henry being very different than he's been in the past. It seems like the focus of it, in fact, is Chris. Chris's dad went to this school. Chris is going to the school. Chris is there making dinner with him and assuring him he'll get into the school. Chris's dad wrote the letter. The first time Henry talked about Chris with Stan he explicitly said she was a girl he wanted to go out with and the family is still questioning whether she's his actual girlfriend now. (Paige's answer--she's sure something.) Maybe he hasn't been able to make it happen yet.

I don't mean to imply that Henry's doing some longterm spy operation of his own and lying, but yeah I think he's a kid caught up in trying out being somebody new based on exotic people he's met. I would hope, given the hints we've gotten of him and Philip being somewhat alike in their basic personalities, that Philip is actually the one with some insight here. Again, not that he thinks Henry's being fake here, but that he knows the difference between "Henry knows what he really wants" and "Henry is caught up in this idea right now but that doesn't mean it's who he is for life."

That seems very in keeping with the show to me, because it's a reflection of Pastor Tim as well. Paige was finding out who she was by going to the church, but she was doing it by first of all making herself into a mini-Pastor Tim. Henry, too, has "figured out who he is" by finding somebody he likes and discovering he's exactly who that person thinks he should be.

[teddysmom]

Quote

Tuan also has no idea of the mortal danger he is in. P&E will cap him in an instant if they ever decide he's an operational liability. (Cf. poor Hans)

I really thought for a minute Elizabeth was going to hit him upside the head with the phone. 

[Ina123]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I took it that now that she was finally feeling free she felt strong and was taking control of her training herself. So basically, I thought it was the opposite of her being angry. She was finally able to fight.

Yup. I agree.

[Fouts]

Normally I'm not one to react too emotionally to TV shows, but I let out an audible gasp as Tuan told Phillip and Elizabeth how he'd taught Pasha to slit his wrists. 

Anyone else catch the overall theme of people considering suicide on this episode?  Not just Pasha, but the hint to viewers that Oleg might jump off the bridge, and Paige might hang herself in the garage?  Of course this didn't happen, but that was my initial reaction, just as others have said.  

I don't think this was a mistake on the writer's part.  Very dark stuff.  These characters in the spy world are spiraling down, just as the Soviet Union was doing at the time.  People just didn't fully recognize it yet.  

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, Ina123 said:

snip

It's also interesting to note that in the 2001 case that the show is based on, the captured "sleeper cell" spies were sent back to Russia, but their children, being American citizens, are free to come and go.

Of course, this is 1984. We were not as forgiving then.

The kids of the illegals were not permitted to come and go.  If you look in the real spy thread, there are several articles about it.  Two are still in a lawsuit to "come back."  Some were, reportedly, and denied by them, already on the path and recruited to become second generation spies.  Because they were minors, details are sketchy.

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, do the Russian spies have a no kill policy for children?  We haven't seen it used, but, was this why P & E put the skids on Tuan's plan? (Excluding the rogue Russian teen who they had to kill in self defense.) Or, did they just consider the risks that it was unfeasible?  Were P & E doing their job OR were they reacting emotionally to protect a child? 

Nah, they would kill anyone in their way.  Especially Elizabeth, who is having her natural behavior and zealot nature curbed by Philip, because she's discovered she loves him.  Mostly though, she knows he's on the edge, and she's trying to prevent him from snapping.

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I was impressed with the natural way E jumped in to encourage Pasha's mom to stand up to her husband and insist that it was best for Pasha to return home.  Her contention certainly seemed believable and even I know she's a spy.  But, come to think of it....was she revealing something of truth within her marriage?  It seems like the opposite to me.  Things are almost 99% done her way, but, when Philip is insistent what is best for the kids,.........is this what she was saying?

I hate what Elizabeth is doing to that whole family.  She doesn't give a shit about that mother, she's trying to maneuver her into becoming a slave for the KGB, a blackmailed slave, with her son as hostage.  Truth doesn't really fit into Elizabeth's narrow views.

4 hours ago, Ina123 said:

But, then again, a nice twist would be if PT goes right to the FBI.

Which he easily could, since Philip and Elizabeth gave him a head's up, and are sending him far far away from Paige, presumably the only reason he's kept quiet for this long has been Paige's daily duties of staying close to him. 

Remember, he's not just interested in saving Paige.  That is secondary to his main goal, to save her SOUL.  To keep her Christian, and sending her off to a country that deplores God and prayer? 

Yeah, so not him.  Going away from Paige, or knowing she's going to be dragged to a country where God is bad makes it much more likely he turns them in.  That is, if the character actually behaved as we've been told he would.

4 hours ago, picklesprite said:

Sophia sure looked fishy last night. If anything ever screamed, "set up," that did, to me.

Speaking of. . .I'm not taking it for granted that the little family in Russia are really P's bro, sil, and nephew. Maybe they are. Or, maybe Misha is going to be groomed to follow in his dad's footsteps or there is some other nefarious plan for him. It all felt a little too easy to me, just as the Sophia story does, as if somebody's setting him up for something. His supervisor (or whoever that was supposed to be) telling him to "take as long as you want"? Really? On the other hand, this show could make God paranoid. If Gabriel shows up for dinner, we'll know.

I believed Tuan would cause the bullies to increase their torture so much that Pasha would kill himself, so I thought it was a clever twist that he simply persuaded Pasha to do it in order to get his parents to take him home.

I agree with others.  Gabe is in the USSR, bored, disgusted with his horrific crimes and life, and probably set the whole thing up for the brother to find Misha.

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

For some reason, when Misha's boss said that he should take as much time as he needs, I got the impression that higher ups had told boss to cooperate and that he knew to follow what they said. AND I THOUGHT that Gabriel had set it up. I mean, who else would have known how to locate Misha AND Phlip's brother.  AND did Gabriel even know the whereabouts of Philip's brother BEFORE he left America? I never heard him mention it to Philip. 

Gabe would have access to everything about Philip, especially family.  You never know when the KGB might have to threaten torture or pain to a family member to keep Philip in line.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

They didn't care they were being exposed. They don't have to worry about that, they're FBI agents. They can work out in the open. They discussed that there was no problem in the KGB knowing they were doing that. It was sow seeds of paranoia in them and give ideas to anybody who might be interested, so it was no big deal. It's not like the KGB doesn't know exactly who these two are already. 

Yes, that's true.  However, it would definitely mean the KGB would follow them even more closely, and debrief or watch anyone they talked to in case they did get a bite. 

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

It is possible to read the Pastor Tim story as a man just as conflicted as everyone else.  He likes the Jennings but believes P&E is doing harm to Paige.  He is trying to counsel them all as best he can without blowing up their family because he still believes that despite everything they are good people.   

Being a man of God he wants to help them all.

I don't think he likes them all that much.  "I know what spies do."  He's not completely naive.

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

I wouldn't spend a second feeling bad for that guy.

I was sad about Hans, but Elizabeth had actually given him a second chance once. The swift execution in this case was a kindness.

Hans was already dead.  The only choice was long painful horrific death that might expose all of them, or a quick surprise relatively painless death.  I really don't count Hans as one of the murder victims of Phil or Liz.

1 hour ago, Gella said:

Funny thing is that Henry would do very well in a Russian school, provided it were one of those "English immersion" schools where he'd probably end up. He seems quite sociable, he is a math geek, he is "cool", he has perfect English. Paige probably would have more trouble adjusting. 

But I don't think P&E have thought this through any more than well they've moved when they were very young and they survived so why wouldn't their children?  And more to the point I don't see the Centre giving up on second gen spies so easily. 

Once again, I really wish the writers would stop  with the incessantly depressing drab showing of the Soviet side, it drags the show down unnecessarily. The problem wasn't that people had nothing. The problem was that one had to hustle and scheme and use "connections" to get anything. There is a scene in "Irony of Fate" where the two protagonists discuss how much each gave "under the table" for the new identical Polish wall unit in their respective apartments. Nothing was straight, everyone was jaded and either on a take or actively dealing with people on a take, and corruption permeated every level of society, but it could certainly make for very interesting material. But the way it is written and filmed I just don't understand why anyone bothers to wake up in the morning, and it's a disservice to some really good acting by Krutonog and Ronin and others. 

I most certainly don't want to see an entire season of P&E in Moscow, and I hope it never goes there. 

As an aside we are getting somewhat close to April 1986 and I wonder what Phillip would make of that disaster. 

We've mostly seen sad Oleg, and sad Martha's lives though.  Oleg's whole family is currently terrified, as is Oleg, so of course it's tense.  Oleg's other associates are KGB investigating either the hopeless food situation, or Oleg himself.  That's not exactly a party, casual, let's all get drunk and have fun situation.

Someone here mentioned the one light turned on thing as being accurate, even then in Russia.  I have no idea, but I got the feeling not wasting electricity was ingrained?  True or not?

I can see Oleg avoiding old friends, why drag them in to the disaster that has become his life?  Still, he was a good spy, and if he wants to look innocent to the internal affairs guys, socializing and having some fun would seem prudent.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Umbelina

[Dowel Jones]

I see a problem with just uprooting Paige and Henry and planting them in Russia without any sort of conditioning beforehand.  They are, in fact and in law, still United States citizens, and thus allowed entrance into any consulate or embassy (Russian guards notwithstanding).  What's to prevent either kid, in a moment of teenage angst and rebellion, from walking into such a place and requesting repatriation?  The PR problems would definitely be newsworthy.

It occurs to me that the surveillance on Pasha's house is mostly ineffectual and incompetent.  A guy sitting in a car all day and all night is noticeable to anyone and everyone, and if the KGB wanted to pull a snatch and grab, he would likely be the first casualty.

[Eulipian 5k]

Paige was beaming when she announced she had her first all night sleep. She felt the whole weight of the PT's  being lifted off and no longer has to read his diary.  She was also highly impressed that her parents had such pull. She's not depressed; she's all in now.

[RedHawk]

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Hans was already dead.  The only choice was long painful horrific death that might expose all of them, or a quick surprise relatively painless death.  I really don't count Hans as one of the murder victims of Phil or Liz.

I agree. It's not on their conscience like the guy in the lab or the guy under the car. Hans' fall was a terrible accident, and his death would have been horrific, so it was a mercy killing of a comrade.

[Umbelina]

I really have loved Oleg's side of this story though.  It's been the highlight of this season for me.

I wonder if Tatiana is staying quiet about telling Oleg about the William op? 

Did she confess?  If she did, would she still be in charge of the Residentura?  The KGB may already know she told Oleg.  Holy crap, that's spooky.

I do hope Stan and Oleg's mark has turned the tables on them.  That could be interesting.  I would adore it if the victim actually becomes the shark and bites them back.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Umbelina

[Gella]

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The kids of the illegals were not permitted to come and go.  If you look in the real spy thread, there are several articles about it.  Two are still in a lawsuit to "come back."  Some were, reportedly, and denied by them, already on the path and recruited to become second generation spies.  Because they were minors, details are sketchy.

Nah, they would kill anyone in their way.  Especially Elizabeth, who is having her natural behavior and zealot nature curbed by Philip, because she's discovered she loves him.  Mostly though, she knows he's on the edge, and she's trying to prevent him from snapping.

I hate what Elizabeth is doing to that whole family.  She doesn't give a shit about that mother, she's trying to maneuver her into becoming a slave for the KGB, a blackmailed slave, with her son as hostage.  Truth doesn't really fit into Elizabeth's narrow views.

Which he easily could, since Philip and Elizabeth gave him a head's up, and are sending him far far away from Paige, presumably the only reason he's kept quiet for this long has been Paige's daily duties of staying close to him. 

Remember, he's not just interested in saving Paige.  That is secondary to his main goal, to save her SOUL.  To keep her Christian, and sending her off to a country that deplores God and prayer? 

Yeah, so not him.  Going away from Paige, or knowing she's going to be dragged to a country where God is bad makes it much more likely he turns them in.  That is, if the character actually behaved as we've been told he would.

I agree with others.  Gabe is in the USSR, bored, disgusted with his horrific crimes and life, and probably set the whole thing up for the brother to find Misha.

Gabe would have access to everything about Philip, especially family.  You never know when the KGB might have to threaten torture or pain to a family member to keep Philip in line.

Yes, that's true.  However, it would definitely mean the KGB would follow them even more closely, and debrief or watch anyone they talked to in case they did get a bite. 

I don't think he likes them all that much.  "I know what spies do."  He's not completely naive.

Hans was already dead.  The only choice was long painful horrific death that might expose all of them, or a quick surprise relatively painless death.  I really don't count Hans as one of the murder victims of Phil or Liz.

We've mostly seen sad Oleg, and sad Martha's lives though.  Oleg's whole family is currently terrified, as is Oleg, so of course it's tense.  Oleg's other associates are KGB investigating either the hopeless food situation, or Oleg himself.  That's not exactly a party, casual, let's all get drunk and have fun situation.

Someone here mentioned the one light turned on thing as being accurate, even then in Russia.  I have no idea, but I got the feeling not wasting electricity was ingrained?  True or not?

I can see Oleg avoiding old friends, why drag them in to the disaster that has become his life?  Still, he was a good spy, and if he wants to look innocent to the internal affairs guys, socializing and having some fun would seem prudent.

No, lights were most certainly turned on. One of the fondest memories is coming home from school in the dark winter evenings (gets dark very early) and seeing all the be-draped well lit windows in the buildings reflected in the snow along the path. Another thing is the crowds. Any time Oleg goes to and from work there is barely anyone on the street and that just would not be the case. It was always "sardines in a tin case" in the metro during rush hour. 

Oleg is a spy. He would want to act normal. Normal would be socialising with his elite friends. 

[Umbelina]

I see why they may have dumped Gabe and put Claudia in his place.  Gabe would be less believable about lying to them.  Claudia though?  She'd lie to them without a care in the world.  Interesting that she mentioned Henry, and told them not to tell him.  Actually, a bit suspicious.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Remember, he's not just interested in saving Paige.  That is secondary to his main goal, to save her SOUL.  To keep her Christian, and sending her off to a country that deplores God and prayer? 

 

But it sort of depends on which Pastor Tim we're talking about. Remember this is also the guy who says that all that matters is how we treat each other and says Marx has a lot of good ideas even if he does hate religion, ha ha. It doesn't seem like somebody truly worried about her soul would avoid those things.

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think he likes them all that much.  "I know what spies do."  He's not completely naive.

Yeah, I've never really gotten the impression he likes them. I think he sort of liked Elizabeth when he thought she was coming around to the church and wasn't a spy but he's always seemed to mostly be in competition with Philip until he got over that and then it was just a bit awkward. It might be significant that he's never much asked about them personally. He's wary.

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I wonder if Tatiana is staying quiet about telling Oleg about the William op? 

 

It seems like she'd be very smart to stay quiet. If she admits she told her boyfriend information he shouldn't have known, that probably wouldn't be good, right? But she might have suggested that as her boyfriend he may have ferreted out info or something?

[dubbel zout]

The Stan/Aderholt/Sofia/Gennady scenes were so hilariously awkward. Stan and Aderholt desperately trying not to blow a gasket; Sofia (seemingly) completely oblivious of how inappropriate and wrong it was to bring Gennady; Gennady not-so-subtly tightening the screws to get Sofia more money.  I can't wait to see what happens.

2 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

I could not understand why they'd share this very real information with him. 

Who else can they talk to? Philip and Elizabeth and Pastor Tim have an extremely odd but, I think, genuine relationship. He's the nearest thing they have to a neutral sounding board.

[Umbelina]

I'm re-watching it now.  The whole show is filmed with minimal lights.  Most of it filmed indoors is really pretty dark, not just in the USSR scenes.  Actually as Oleg walked through the KGB I noticed dozens of lights were turned on.

It is blue though, I guess they are trying to make it seem cold/different light.

[jjj]

I got the feeling that Oleg made a decision in those final scenes with his father, his mother washing up in the kitchen, and then wandering the streets.  It all felt very ominous, like he was getting a last look at his mother before he left.  Misdirection?  Or did I miss something? 

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Gella said:

No, lights were most certainly turned on. One of the fondest memories is coming home from school in the dark winter evenings (gets dark very early) and seeing all the be-draped well lit windows in the buildings reflected in the snow along the path. Another thing is the crowds. Any time Oleg goes to and from work there is barely anyone on the street and that just would not be the case. It was always "sardines in a tin case" in the metro during rush hour. 

Oleg is a spy. He would want to act normal. Normal would be socialising with his elite friends. 

I wonder if the street scenes are relatively empty because they really were shooting in Moscow?  They may have grabbed a bunch of Oleg scenes walking around just to keep that Moscow flavor/look and make us believe the studio or location shots for the rest of the Moscow scenes were also real?

That latest store looked pretty well stocked really.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I see why they may have dumped Gabe and put Claudia in his place.  Gabe would be less believable about lying to them.  Claudia though?  She'd lie to them without a care in the world.  Interesting that she mentioned Henry, and told them not to tell him.  Actually, a bit suspicious.

Claudia could easily be lying; I'm not sure whether she's lying or not now. Hard to say. She may not even know for sure what's next. Really the options are: let them go home- they could be useful at home too I'm sure, kill them- where they will not be an asset or liability anymore, or  try and force them to keep spying knowing they're over it. I think it's debatable how serious they still are about 2nd gen spies. 

As for her advice on not telling Henry, I'm not sure if that's suspicious or not: surely she hasn't forgotten the tragedy of the centre stepping in with Jared and telling him the truth without his parents knowledge or consent. Seems insanely risky to contemplate that again. She might well think it's less risky to keep the truth from him until it's a done deal. 

[Umbelina]

Except they hit us with hammers on the head telling us the Center doesn't trust Philip anymore.

If Claudia suspects (correctly) that Elizabeth is only doing it because of Philip?  Much easier to take Philip out of the equation completely and keep their second generation spy (spies?)  Especially if Philip died by the hand of Americans, or it was framed that way. 

It could snap Elizabeth's whole hearted patriotism/zealotry right back into place.  Revenge is a good motive to keep her commitment strong. 

[Helena Dax]

I'm a bit surprised they talked to PT, yes, but on the other hand, they don't have anyone else. And he really cares about Paige. So I don't think it's unbelievable. Also, I agree that it could be also a way to make him believe that they care more about his opinion than they actually do.

But I can't understand all those comments saying that telling him about going back to Moscow with their children was a mistake or a big risk. In the first place, I think he'd be relieved. A Russian spy who goes back to Soviet Union is a Russian spy who isn't spying in America anymore.  So what you've got is two parents who want to go back home and take their children with them. Why would PT believe he has any right to stop them? It's P+E's choice. I think they should leave Paige and Henry behind, but it's still their choice, not PT's. And even if you believe that Communist Russia was worse than the USA, it's not like they're taking Paige and Henry to Mordor. 

Oleg, omg. He's got balls of steele. And he's too good and noble for the USSR. The saddest part is that it was all for nothing. The Soviets still got their biological weapon. Damn.

I always thought Pasha was going to end up commiting suicide, but I never imagined it would be at Tuan's suggestion. Man, that was cold. 

Loved the scene where that Russian woman and her boyfriend went to talk with Stan and the other guy. I mean, the look in their faces was hysterical, like they were thinking "I can't believe this" over and over, lol.