S05.E11: Dyatkovo

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I think it's less about what Philip would do without Elizabeth, and more about what he's willing to do with her. If they both want to leave, that provides a kind of strength and courage that he just wouldn't have to act alone. Doing something terrifying as a team is a lot more palatable than making the leap alone. So in a way, it does come back to Elizabeth, but not because she's holding Philip back from something he would do on his own; rather, her feeling the same as him suddenly transforms an impossible fantasy into a dangerous but righteous mission they can embark on together. Maybe some think this distinction is meaningless, but to me it's pretty important.

I never thought of it that way, but I agree. I remember way back in s1 there was a reviewer that described them as a couple as being like kittens from the same litter, and I think it's hard to underestimate just how much they rely on each other and get courage from each other that way. 

I also always think it's important how Philip's ideas about defecting etc. have become more realistic since the pilot. Back then not only did he have easy answers for the obviously dangers (Timoshev gave speeches--we won't and we'll be fine! We'll just tell the kids the truth! etc.) but he literally thought of it as just "becoming" who they pretended to be. 

But still, even though it was before they were really in love and Elizabeth was being particularly prickly to him due to Timoshev, he intended to take the whole family with him. Like even then he wasn't planning to leave Elizabeth. It was a half-baked plan, but that's where he was at the time. 

Then there's Elizabeth who in the end gave in, told him to take Timoshev to the Americans. I don't know how exactly to reconcile that with her nature except to say that even then when she thought Philip was siding with Timoshev, she didn't have the courage to make as much of a stand. Even with Gregory still waiting for her at his apartment without Philip she wilted.

Now I guess we have the question of what will happen. If they go to the Centre and say they want to go home, presumably they'll be given more "one last assignments" or just be denied. And that would give Elizabeth that much more time to see things more clearly. Like she's still very deep in denial about Paige and eager to see her as coming along just fine. I remember in S4 the showrunners talked about how Elizabeth was having to realize that season how fragile family could be--she had to attend to their actual needs, not just keep marching forward and expect them to be behind her.

10 minutes ago, chick binewski said:

I just can't see Elizabeth's actions as being dutiful or strong. It may be how I view Keri Russell's portrayal, but Elizabeth always strikes me as completely smug with a side of bemused condescension. I have almost a physical reaction to

I feel like that makes sense that it would come across that way. This is Elizabeth when she feels like she's being her best self, when she's acting in the service of the country and playing the Great Soviet in front of people who Don't Understand. She can't admit her own doubts to herself even enough to really understand their pov, so she comes across like any Believer who looks down on non-Believers because they don't know the truth.

It's funny, actually, because the moment I most hated her (really the only moment) was when she was talking to Betty in Electric Sheep. I hated the way it was like because she knew she was going to have to kill this woman anyway she decided to go to her for comfort as well, talking about her mother and being truthful. 

[SusanSunflower]

My next-door-neighbor's WWI (Navy veteran Pacific front) dad always laughed at the outrage of "only following orders"which he said conveniently ignored the dire consequence of refusing to follow those exact same orders ... "If I refused, insubordination they call it, I'd have been lucky not to simply be shot point-blank."   The whole "following orders" thing is more controversial and less "obvious" in bureaucratic reality  which orders and from where to whom on the chain of command prosecution and punishment should fall.  We saw that with Abu Ghraib where the grunts (who were doing work that was "not in their job description" having been commandeered by "intelligence") got the trials, punishment, and notoriety.  Their commanding officer, iirc was demoted -- which seemed a bit unfair because she HAD previously complained about her personnel being diverted by "intelligence service" and was criticized for that.  Our torture is done by "independent contractors" who have immunity from prosecution written into their contract.  

The Russians suffered terribly at the hands of the German army ... either you minutely litigate every single case (the legal cases taking years) or you make a policy to find-and-eliminate based on reasonable certainty.  It's part of why I oppose capital punishment.  All that hair-splitting about mitigating circumstances and alibis and claims makes it all -- imho -- a truly ghoulish and immoral spectacle.  If you can come up with a good-enough-story or enough-doubt, your life is spared. A good reason, imho, to "spare" them all. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

 

To Phillip Henry has a life, that he could never have even dreamed about, growing up in extreme poverty.  He is realizing that he never knew his father and never will.  It saddens him to realize the "life" has caused a rift between him and Henry to the point of Henry wanting to go to a fancy boarding school and live away from his parents.  Yes, Henry is a typical teenager, but they would have definitely been closer, if Phillip did not have to skirt off every couple of days to complete a mission.

I agree with most of this, except I don't think the "rift" between Henry and his parents is the root cause of him wanting to go away. I'm not even sure rift is the word I'd use for their relationship with him. It implies animosity and resentment. We've seen a little resentment over Paige and his grades, but Henry isn't continuing to harp on it. He's not Paige. 

Also, when asked, he said he wasn't angry at them, that it wasn't about him being unhappy at home. He seemed honest. I think he wants to go because he's become ambitious, his girlfriend is going, and he thinks it's cool and exciting.  It's more about Henry's desires. He thinks boarding school is cool, a stepping stone to bigger things.  He thought the FBI was cool; he may not now, but he did before Stan told him how it's basically ruined his life. I think Henry thinks his parents are fairly boring, normal, average people working a mundane job. And he wants more. It's that simple. 

I do agree there is separation between Henry and his parents due to the secret, due to their working hours, and Henry's own personality, but I'm just not getting that P and E's lifestyle is driving this desire for boarding school. 

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes. But they can commit indefensible acts without murdering people over and over. That's not what spies do.  More importantly the murders would have more meaning if they weren't so common. 

I agree on why Elizabeth shot the guy first. Maybe one day she'll watch Philip get shot. 

I find that horribly depressing. P and E seem pretty miserable all the time as is. I'd hate for her to see Philip shot. 

From my pov, P and E pay ALL the time for the things they've done. I don't have any desire for ultimate tragedy- be it prison or death. I feel like all I do is watch them pay and suffer. Especially this season. This season has been depressing for a reason- they're both super depressed. 

The spies as presented in this show do kill a lot as part of their job. I accept that. There actually haven't been that many murders of innocents lately. Notably the lab guy and this couple really. I don't count Hans. 

[dubbel zout]

10 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

From my pov, P and E pay ALL the time for the things they've done. I don't have any desire for ultimate tragedy- be it prison or death. I feel like all I do is watch them pay and suffer. Especially this season. This season has been depressing for a reason- they're both super depressed. 

This is where I am, too. They're both soul sick at this point from the work. It's not only the violence, it's the sheer grind of keeping all the balls in the air. Every mission has a different meeting place, different disguise, different character, and they have three or four (more?) going on simultaneously. Then Claudia gives them one-offs like Natalie. And with all of this going on, they're dealing with their daughter's rocky adjustment to knowing the truth, and their son is BFFs with the neighbor FBI agent and wants to go to boarding school. No wonder they want to be done.

Don't get me wrong: If Philip and Elizabeth were real people, I'd want them prosecuted into oblivion. But because they're fictional characters, I'd prefer an ending with some nuance. That doesn't exclude prison necessarily, but death seems too easy.

[Umbelina]

Every other season I have re-watched the episode at least once.  Hell, I have 1-4 on DVD, and even put them in recently to enjoy when the show was so fucking good.

This season?  I kept to my old habits at first, but gave it up around episode 4 or so.  This episode?  Once again, no desire whatsoever to watch it again.  Maybe once the show gets good again, hopefully during the final season, I will appreciate all the endless dangling plot points and dreary, horrifying, sadness of this season?  Or maybe not.  It could end up like that season on True Blood that nearly ended the series for me, but it came back strong later, or other disastrous seasons of various otherwise excellent shows.

One problem I realized while thinking of it.  THIS SEASON I care much more about the victims of Philip and Elizabeth, and even of Stan and Aderholt than I do about the stars of the show.  I pretty much hate all of them now, ruining lives willy nilly, and endlessly, or simply ending their lives.  As I said before, in many ways, this is the truest spy season we've had.  Hell, I even understood why she killed that old woman in the mail robot factory, I accepted it, no choice (even though there is no fucking way they would have been the spies to do that operation.  At all.)

Speaking of that, pretty clunky call back really to have Henry see the mail robot.  We get it writers, we aren't idiots.  It also seemed like pandering to me, to critics, to fans, who made the mail robot a thing.

Because?  Spies suck.  They use and abuse for information, and people, many of them innocent people, or people with horrors in their lives, end up the victims.  In reality, "security" is probably worth it on some levels, but it's a slow and excruciating slog to see it play out slowly and endlessly.  Patriotism has a hell of a lot to answer for in this world.

Side note, I watched Reds last night, and the commentary on the special edition DVD.  I especially loved the comments about why WWI happened, and the ideals that Elizabeth is fighting for make more sense, especially the rejection of religion as the opiate and control of the masses to keep them in their place as servants to the rich.  "If only" comes to mind, if only it hadn't been corrupted, the vast idea of not letting a very very few with endless money control the majority of the people in the world, and send them to die and fight in endless wars to make sure those very few get richer...  The idea of the majority of people seizing control does appeal to me.  It was the execution of it that sucked, and of course the fear of the very rich here that it would spread to the USA and end them.  I understand, partly, why Elizabeth still believes in the idea, but she's too old for the spirit of that revolution, the early goals and dreams...she was living in the disaster it became, she never ever experienced the highs, only the lows.

Anyway, as usual, I feel the reviewers and even many of those people who comment here care more and read more into the episodes than the writers have this season.

I'm so disappointed, and I'm so very glad some people are still finding this show compelling.  I hope to join your ranks next season.  At this point, though I was hoping for (at LEAST!) a great season finale?  Now, I'm pretty much resigning myself to the idea that, no, it will suck too.  Hold on for the finale season.

I don't think all Penultimate seasons suffer like this, first one to come to mind is Breaking Bad's, which was devastating and excellent and kept all interest going, even with a protagonist more icky than Phil and Liz.

Oh, and once again, Philip has completely lost me too, can't stand that wimp anymore.  Letting Liz kill them makes you just as bad.  For once in your damn life, do what YOU think it best you coward.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

55 minutes ago, chick binewski said:

Putting her children in the thick of what she and Phillip do also doesn't do her favor; these kids grew up in American with a stylish mother who makes a point of whipping up food at a moment's notice from a fully stocked refrigerator. Why she thinks Paige or Henry will feel any sort of patriotism towards Russia or that she herself will prosper in her home country is a head scratcher.   

I thought the way the shot of P & E was framed - looking down at the dead couple - was specifically ominous, hinting at P&E's eventual demise.  

I don't think she expects her kids to want to go  to Russia or feel any sense of patriotism for it.  P and E said as much when Gabriel suggested going home at the end of last season. They KNOW how Americanized their kids are. We've also seen them watch the Russian family struggle to adapt to America. They're painfully aware imo of how hard it would be for all of them. 

Elizabeth was so clearly over it by the end of the episode.....going home is the least dangerous of their options- regardless of how how difficult they all might find the adjustment. Assuming the centre would let them go home to begin with. I get why that was her first suggestion. Running or defecting is far more risky.

ugh- I could see them killing E and P, but how utterly depressing. Especially after a season as depressing as this one has been. I enjoy the show, but there's a difference between them being depressed for episodes on end.... and ending the show on as low a note as humanly possible. 

[Umbelina]

Elizabeth may realize the kids would hate Russia, but she will tell herself, and has, that they will adjust and love it in time. 

Elizabeth rules that family, what she says goes, period.  Who's going to stand up to her and say no?  Philip?  Ha!  Teenagers?  Not in her world, no one has a say but her and center.

ETA

I used to practical beg friends, neighbors, hell even strangers I met while at work, to watch this show, posted how great it was on Facebook / Twitter, etc.  This season?  I just realized I haven't recommended it to a single person. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth may realize the kids would hate Russia, but she will tell herself, and has, that they will adjust and love it in time. 

Elizabeth rules that family, what she says goes, period.  Who's going to stand up to her and say no?  Philip?  Ha!  Teenagers?  Not in her world, no one has a say but her and center.

Honestly, though, what would you suggest she do now?  Really. She was giving the least destructive, dangerous option. Would the kids love foster care instead? No. Would they love being on the run? No. 

Up thread there was a mention of Philip being a wimp and letting Elizabeth kill the couple when he should have manned up. To do what? Nothing he did or didn't do was going to save them. The centre wanted her dead. Whether he did it or Elizabeth, or both opted out, she was still dead. At that moment, for the first time, he couldn't kill himself.  It's been coming. So Elizabeth did it instead. All that scene was for me was a tragedy-  for ALL of them.  But I'm not sure what else Philip was supposed to do. The only thing he has any control over is whether he pulls the trigger. That's it. 

[dubbel zout]

20 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Assuming the centre would let them go home to begin with.

I've always wondered about this. Philip and Elizabeth are highly regarded and very effective agents, and if they want out, does the Centre respect that? Or does it say, Eh, we need you too much; suck it up, Buttercups. And then take the risk that Philip and Elizabeth maybe defect or go underground or get caught?

[stagmania]

14 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I've always wondered about this. Philip and Elizabeth are highly regarded and very effective agents, and if they want out, does the Centre respect that? Or does it say, Eh, we need you too much; suck it up, Buttercups. And then take the risk that Philip and Elizabeth maybe defect or go underground or get caught?

I don't think it's an accident that the show told us William's story. He wanted out, too, and they kept asking him for one more thing until he was dead. Gabriel is a sad story, too. He got to go home, but not until the end of his life when all hope of a family and personal happiness had passed him by. Once you enter this life, there's no happy retirement. The only way for P&E to truly save themselves from this life is to go back in time and never enter into it in the first place.

I keep thinking about the comment last week that the wedding was so evocative of Romeo and Juliet and their doomed love. I really don't think that's a coincidence, either.

Edited May 17, 2017 by stagmania

[Sarah 103]

19 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Loved that Stan told Henry the truth about what the FBI can do to people- make them have difficulty trusting anyone and ruins relationships. I think that took some of Henry's enthusiasm away. And showed Stan's own burnout too. 

Stan did the right thing. He saw that Henry had "star spangled eyes" and couldn't let him think about going into the FBI without letting him know about the emotional cost or toll it could take on someone. 

19 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

And why is it P and E spend multiple scenes every episode discussing in detail their Paige strategy, but we never hear what their Henry strategy is. Are they grooming him? Has Paige's breakdown convinced them (ok, Elizabeth) they DON'T want Henry to be a second-gen illegal after all? How do they feel about their son's surrogate father and his access to the inner circle of the FBI? These are things the audience needs to know.

I don't think they have a Henry strategy. If they have anything close to a Henry strategy it's "let's keep him from finding out as long as we possibly can."

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

His conversation with Stan (who could tell Henry was laying it on thick in his essay--Henry's quite the slick suck up when he wants to be; I suspect he's like that with Chris's dad) was nicely foreboding if the kid ever figures out he’s the family member who’s not trusted.

I didn't see the scene that way. I thought it was Henry being actually impressed and thinking that the FBI was cool and amazing. 

17 hours ago, minamurray78 said:

Henry fawning over the mail bot was so cute. 

 

12 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Or Henry's next conversation will be about the mail robot and how he wants too go into robotics.

I could totally see this happening. Henry is a kid who likes technology/gizmos/gadgets. I'm surprised he hasn't tried building things at home. 

8 hours ago, benteen said:

I have no idea why they didn't just do a snatch and grab with the Russian woman.  It's not like they were trying to get at another trained agent.  Just snatch her and get her away from that location.  Flat out executing her and her husband in their own home is going to attract a major investigation by the police.  Making her disappear would have triggered an investigation too but not like this.

Unless they make it look like a robbery/homicide. 

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

He has always, always been the type to do his own thing. There have been many scenes where you see him pointedly playing games rather than interacting with the people in the room.

Someone (I can't remember who it was) compared Paige and Henry to characters in The Godfather. In this way, Henry is very much like Michael. Even before he knew that the family business was, Michael had no interest in it. After he learned what it was, he still had no interest in it. Also, like Vito, Philip and Elizabeth don't want this life for him. 

Sooner or later I think Oleg's investigation is going to pit him against his father, or someone very good friends with his father. Did the higher ups know this was going to happen when they assigned Oleg the job? Is this an actual investigation meant to have results, or is it all a sham/just for show? 

[Umbelina]

12 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Honestly, though, what would you suggest she do now?  Really. She was giving the least destructive, dangerous option. Would the kids love foster care instead? No. Would they love being on the run? No. 

Up thread there was a mention of Philip being a wimp and letting Elizabeth kill the couple when he should have manned up. To do what? Nothing he did or didn't do was going to save them. The centre wanted her dead. Whether he did it or Elizabeth, or both opted out, she was still dead. At that moment, for the first time, he couldn't kill himself.  It's been coming. So Elizabeth did it instead. All that scene was for me was a tragedy-  for ALL of them.  But I'm not sure what else Philip was supposed to do. The only thing he has any control over is whether he pulls the trigger. That's it. 

That's what evil people tell themselves when they do evil.  Or whatever the dead old woman in the Mail Robot episode said.  He COULD have done plenty, he CHOSE not to.  He could have defected back when he first wanted to, saved himself and his kids, gone into witness protection, and he's intelligent enough to have the deal in writing before he spilled any information, or to have figured out a way to handle that.  He COULD have left the moment recruiting Paige became a gleam in his "wife's" eye, or the minute Center suggested it.  Yes, he was in a bad situation, not ideal, but look at the situation he's in now!  Better?  No.  Look at Paige!  Better?  Certainly not.

If I were Paige or Henry and my choice was go to live in the Soviet Union in 1984 to be with mom and dad, or go into Foster Care and beg someone from the church to take us in, or hell, even Stan or his ex?  My choice, and I'm sure theirs as well would be the latter.  Paige is a year away from being very likely to receive emancipated adult status anyway.  Heck, they might have even granted it at 16 for her, she's such a mature genius and all.  Philip could have also provided money for that eventuality.

Options exist.  Philip tells Center and his handlers no frequently.  His wife?  Never even tries.

8 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I've always wondered about this. Philip and Elizabeth are highly regarded and very effective agents, and if they want out, does the Centre respect that? Or does it say, Eh, we need you too much; suck it up, Buttercups. And then take the risk that Philip and Elizabeth maybe defect or go underground or get caught?

Liz yes.  As the show has repeatedly drummed in our dear little ears, Philip is highly suspect, and has been ever since Liz ratted him out.  That jaunt to Germany, his traitor son in Russia, his flat out refusal to do certain things, for example recruit Paige joyously, haven't helped.  Philip is as likely to be killed by the KGB at this point as he is doing a job for them.

Liz and Paige are the KGB's priority now, Philip's hockey skates are on very thin ice indeed, he thwarts or roadblocks ops, Liz, or Paige?  Dead man.

[Sarah 103]

6 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I keep thinking about the comment last week that the wedding was so evocative of Romeo and Juliet and their doomed love. I really don't think that's a coincidence, either.

When I made the comment about the wedding in Romeo and Juliet I wasn't thinking about the idea of doomed love and tragedy, but that works really well for this story, thematically. I especially like the idea that they are doomed because they are in love. Perhaps their love for each other will be what leads to their demise/downfall (one goes back for the other/one stays instead of running when he or she had the chance). 

[dubbel zout]

2 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I don't think it's an accident that the show told us William's story. He wanted out, too, and they kept asking him for one more thing until he was dead.

Didn't William have only the one job, at the lab? He might have done some surveillance support, but he couldn't risk getting into trouble. I see the logic of the Centre keeping him at the lab.

[stagmania]

5 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Perhaps their love for each other will be what leads to their demise/downfall (one goes back for the other/one stays instead of running when he or she had the chance). 

Or because their love for each other is what gives them the strength to try to get out, which results in a bad ending for both. 

4 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Didn't William have only the one job, at the lab? He might have done some surveillance support, but he couldn't risk getting into trouble. I see the logic of the Centre keeping him at the lab.

It was very logical for the Centre to keep him there, but he wanted to be done. Instead, they asked him to stay on and then his life was over. 

[Erin9]

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

That's what evil people tell themselves when they do evil.  Or whatever the dead old woman in the Mail Robot episode said.  He COULD have done plenty, he CHOSE not to.  He could have defected back when he first wanted to, saved himself and his kids, gone into witness protection, and he's intelligent enough to have the deal in writing before he spilled any information, or to have figured out a way to handle that.  He COULD have left the moment recruiting Paige became a gleam in his "wife's" eye, or the minute Center suggested it.  Yes, he was in a bad situation, not ideal, but look at the situation he's in now!  Better?  No.  Look at Paige!  Better?  Certainly not.

If I were Paige or Henry and my choice was go to live in the Soviet Union in 1984 to be with mom and dad, or go into Foster Care and beg someone from the church to take us in, or hell, even Stan or his ex?  My choice, and I'm sure theirs as well would be the latter.  Paige is a year away from being very likely to receive emancipated adult status anyway.  Heck, they might have even granted it at 16 for her, she's such a mature genius and all.  Philip could have also provided money for that eventuality.

Options exist.  Philip tells Center and his handlers no frequently.  His wife?  Never even tries.

Liz yes.  As the show has repeatedly drummed in our dear little ears, Philip is highly suspect, and has been ever since Liz ratted him out.  That jaunt to Germany, his traitor son in Russia, his flat out refusal to do certain things, for example recruit Paige joyously, haven't helped.  Philip is as likely to be killed by the KGB at this point as he is doing a job for them.

Liz and Paige are the KGB's priority now, Philip's hockey skates are on very thin ice indeed, he thwarts or roadblocks ops, Liz, or Paige?  Dead man.

I was mostly talking about what Philip could have done in that exact moment in time when they were about to kill the couple. Not his options over time. There's no show if he'd made all those decisions at the beginning anyway. It's a show about marriage and family 

I'm not convinced Henry and Paige would consider any option on earth better than living in the Soviet Union and still having their parents in their lives.  Maybe. I'm not close to convinced at this point though. They'd be orphaned. No small thing. They love their parents. 

[Sarah 103]

2 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Or because their love for each other is what gives them the strength to try to get out, which results in a bad ending for both. 

This makes me think of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid or Bonnie and Clyde. They try to get out, but realize there's no way for them to come out alive. In that kind of situation, I think that Philip would figure out they were doomed before Elizabeth. 

[Umbelina]

17 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Didn't William have only the one job, at the lab? He might have done some surveillance support, but he couldn't risk getting into trouble. I see the logic of the Centre keeping him at the lab.

William was a highly qualified scientist placed there to be exactly that and move on up through that system to a place where he'd get good information, samples etc.  Which, he did.

7 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I was mostly talking about what Philip could have done in that exact moment in time when they were about to kill the couple. Not his options over time. There's no show if he'd made all those decisions at the beginning anyway. It's a show about marriage and family 

I'm not convinced Henry and Paige would consider any option on earth better than living in the Soviet Union and still having their parents in their lives.  Maybe. I'm not close to convinced at this point though. They'd be orphaned. No small thing. They love their parents. 

He could have said no.  He could have been a human being and said no to the murder of one completely innocent man, and a coerced, terrified, drunk child at the time of her "crimes."  Yes, the KGB would be pissed, yes, he'd have to defect, yes that couple would have to run, or be killed by someone else.  Philip didn't have to be a partner to murder.

Someone told her to kill, and her life was at stake, she was obviously in terror after just burying her entire family, being raped, and forced to drink.

What was Philip's excuse?  He was also told to kill and he let it happen. 

Two peas, same pod.

ETA, the difference is Philip is an adult, and didn't (literally) have guns to his head when he participated in murder.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Umbelina

[Helena Dax]

I'm still enjoying this show a lot. I don't hate P+E at all and I don't mind the slow pace. However, I agree that some things in this episode didn't make too much sense.  Elizabeth said they'd make sure that woman was guilty before killing her, but the way they handled the situation was so sloppy... What if she had been innocent? Would have they left her and her husband alone? Yes, they were wearing wigs, but the risk is unnecesary. And it could have been done without killing the husband. 

Some of you have been saying that Nazis would have never taken someone like her to a hospital in Germany. Is it possible that she wasn't telling the whole truth? Have the writers said anything about it?

I'm not surprised Elizabeth is finally done, but wow, this is going to change a lot of things. Can't wait to see The Center's reaction to that. If they were willing to send them back to Russia a couple of seasons ago, why not now?

Every time I see Henry with Stan I'm afraid Henry's going to say something incriminating.

One last thing: I never understood Oleg's assignment because it seems to imply that the people who gave him that mission didn't know that the whole system is corrupt and they aren't part of that corruption. Is that even possible?

Edited May 18, 2017 by Helena Dax

[txhorns79]

Quote

I agree on why Elizabeth shot the guy first. Maybe one day she'll watch Philip get shot. 

If it's the Centre doing the killing, I presume that first she'll watch Henry and Paige get shot, then Phillip. 

[Umbelina]

I think Center has more riding on those two kids than they do on Elizabeth or Philip at this point.  I'd say they are safe, unless used to keep Philip in line.

[White Sheep]

On 5/17/2017 at 0:57 AM, jjj said:

They have always had another location where they change and switch cars.  When they get home, they are back in their regular mode of hairstyles and outfits.  They must have a lot of cars stashed somewhere.

Why do I have this feeling.  There a family of illegals Soviet spies who runs a large used car lot somewhere in the DC area who only job is to provide vechiles for the KGB. I wonder if he does car commercials to maintain his cover?  

Edited May 19, 2017 by White Sheep

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I do agree there is separation between Henry and his parents due to the secret, due to their working hours, and Henry's own personality, but I'm just not getting that P and E's lifestyle is driving this desire for boarding school. 

This reminds me of when Henry broke into the neighbor's house and there was a lot of assumptions that he was acting out because his parents were so neglectful. Yet the whole season had had several references to Henry really wanting Intellivision--even being openly disappointed when he got a telescope instead for his birthday. The first time he broke into the house he blew off his parents with a lie about going to play hockey when they were right there happy to spend time with him. I didn't see any reason not to accept that he really did want to play the video game. He loves video games. His asking about St. Edwards' in this ep wasn't that different from him asking for other things in the past, despite his changing relationship with his parents.

Maybe the parallel is just that, that Henry doesn't know what he's giving up and what he's getting into. Not that boarding school is like spying for the KGB, of course, but focusing on you want and not knowing what you're giving up would fit.

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

From my pov, P and E pay ALL the time for the things they've done. I don't have any desire for ultimate tragedy- be it prison or death. I feel like all I do is watch them pay and suffer. Especially this season. This season has been depressing for a reason- they're both super depressed. 

I feel the same way. In this ep it just really struck me that Elizabeth probably shot the guy first for that reason, and with all the threats about how the Centre feels about Philip, it makes me nervous.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Oh, and once again, Philip has completely lost me too, can't stand that wimp anymore.  Letting Liz kill them makes you just as bad.  For once in your damn life, do what YOU think it best you coward.

I wouldn't assume Philip wasn’t doing what was right. He raised his gun first when he realized the woman was actually a collaborator. He just didn’t want to kill anybody else. He didn't have a particular plan B he wanted to follow. He's not afraid to argue with Elizabeth when he thinks she's wrong. He didn't think she was wrong. He just couldn't pull the trigger on another person. A lot of people, especially Soviets, would not consider this woman innocent because she successfully got away with her war crimes for many years. 

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth may realize the kids would hate Russia, but she will tell herself, and has, that they will adjust and love it in time. 

And Philip thinks they’ll adjust. He may be the bigger pushover of a parent but he’s got the same suck it up mentality as she does in many ways. Going to Russia is the safest option. Philip has pushed for it for a while. That's retirement. Defection and Witness Protection is running.

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

Stan did the right thing. He saw that Henry had "star spangled eyes" and couldn't let him think about going into the FBI without letting him know about the emotional cost or toll it could take on someone. 

I don't think Stan was that worried about Henry. He's disillusioned with his job and doesn't really have anyone to talk to about it. I think it was more that Henry probably reminded him of himself when he was a kid, before he was in the FBI (since Stan, unlike Henry, was genuinely focused on joining it from a young age) and Henry gave him an option to express what he was feeling about his job. Good advice for Henry, but I think Stan said it even more for himself than for Henry. In a way he was saying what Philip can't since Henry doesn't know Philip's a spy.

Now that I wrote that I realize I'm not really disagreeing. LOL.

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

I didn't see the scene that way. I thought it was Henry being actually impressed and thinking that the FBI was cool and amazing. 

Sure he genuinely thought it was cool and exciting. But he's not a wide-eyed 8-year-old being sincere in thinking Stan was the FBI comic book hero. In talking to Stan and his parents he talked about what he really thought was cool--the Vault, the computers, the boss with all the power. He knew he was giving it more patriotic flattery in his essay. He's not lying to Stan about loving the FBI, but he is striking a pose for the essay, which Stan caught. Henry does that. He's getting older and he's a smart, sophisticated kid, one who plays around with different things. He's not Paige talking about how great Pastor Tim's politics are.

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

When I made the comment about the wedding in Romeo and Juliet I wasn't thinking about the idea of doomed love and tragedy, but that works really well for this story, thematically. I especially like the idea that they are doomed because they are in love. Perhaps their love for each other will be what leads to their demise/downfall (one goes back for the other/one stays instead of running when he or she had the chance). 

I thought Romeo and Juliet too and in the same way, I think. Thematically both stories are about an ongoing grudge, people (households/countries) that hate each other, and within that hatred two people fell in love and it's stronger than the hatred. The secret wedding in both cases is them putting their love for each other over the hereditary hatred. Whether or not they survive their love wins.

54 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I'm not convinced Henry and Paige would consider any option on earth better than living in the Soviet Union and still having their parents in their lives.  Maybe. I'm not close to convinced at this point though. They'd be orphaned. No small thing. They love their parents. 

Paige could have made that decision already. She even had a ready-made person who would have been glad to help her. It never seemed to occur to her to want her parents out of her life. Paige doesn't want to go to the USSR, but she as of yet she doesn't seem to have ever really understood that as a real thing.

Edited May 18, 2017 by sistermagpie

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth may realize the kids would hate Russia, but she will tell herself, and has, that they will adjust and love it in time. 

Elizabeth rules that family, what she says goes, period.  Who's going to stand up to her and say no?  Philip?  Ha!  Teenagers?  Not in her world, no one has a say but her and center.

ETA

I used to practical beg friends, neighbors, hell even strangers I met while at work, to watch this show, posted how great it was on Facebook / Twitter, etc.  This season?  I just realized I haven't recommended it to a single person. 

I don't understand how anyone could love Russia - except perhaps the men (and by men I intentionally exclude all women) who head the various Communist parties and commissions. Everyone else is clearly treated like shit.  I suppose it's not as bad as people being shut up in concentration camps where they are either worked to death or starved to death. But for people who have visited or lived in Russia for any length of time, please tell me, if you can, where is the happiness in that country? Have you ever seen groups of people in public who are laughing and dancing and having a good time?  The only time that I can recall ever seeing such a thing was in April 1945 when the Russian army and the US army met up on the Ober River and everyone celebrated the end of the Nazis and the end of the Nazi party and the end of the war. Unfortunately, the war never ended and it seems like it just may never end (even if it's just a cold war that goes on). Aside from that, I need to ask, just where is the happiness in Russia?  Is there any?  I have hardly ever seen any happiness there except maybe when foreigners hand over some of their currency to Russian citizens and I can't imagine from whence any other happiness would spring? Well, maybe when someone has sex for the first time if they enjoy it?  Although it seems to me that many people who have sex for the first time simply do not enjoy it at all because no one has ever shown them how to enjoy it.  Having sex in Russia seems to be accompanied with a whole lotta voldka. Isn't it?  That's not for me.

Maybe young people who have been accepted to study with the famous Russian ballet company ... maybe they might display some happiness. But aside from them, who else would it be? Please, can you tell me?

Edited May 18, 2017 by MissBluxom

[txhorns79]

Quote

I think Center has more riding on those two kids than they do on Elizabeth or Philip at this point.  I'd say they are safe, unless used to keep Philip in line.

If Phillip and Elizabeth were trying to escape their situation, I feel as though the Centre would be ruthless. 

Quote

He didn't think she was wrong. He just couldn't pull the trigger on another person. A lot of people, especially Soviets, would not consider this woman innocent because she successfully got away with her war crimes for many years. 

Yeah, I think after killing the innocent scientist, Phillip just can't bring himself to kill another innocent person. 

[Umbelina]

Paige reacted in utter horror when going to live in the Soviet Union was brought up.  She was hysterical and didn't care that Henry could probably hear her yelling about spies and the USSR.

Henry, presumably, is deaf though.

There isn't a chance in hell that either of those kids would be OK with going to the USSR.  At all.  Henry has plans and interests and, in spite of the wheat lie to Paige, both children consider themselves Americans.  They don't want bread lines, and boot lines, or lines of any kind, let alone a regular diet of mostly cabbage and potatoes, and no one who speaks their language, and darkness for much of the year, or the snow and gut wrenching cold of Moscow, let alone a tiny bleak apartment, and no computer games.  They are nearing adulthood, the time when kids move away from their parents anyway.  Presumably they could still have letters, and soon email communication with them.

In a couple of years Paige will be in college, Henry already wants boarding school, and he'd follow behind Paige in probably going away to college (if the Center doesn't forbid it) anyway.

They aren't toddlers or in grade school anymore. 

Heck, I was fascinated by Russia, and had learned enough Russian to easily communicate at Paige's age, and I would have picked up the rest pretty fast once there.  Even so?  No way in hell would I have willingly moved there, at all, and it had nothing to do with patriotism, it had to do with freedom and choices.  There was certainly enough information out there about daily life in Russia for anyone who wanted to know.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Umbelina

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

Every time I see Henry with Stan I'm afraid Henry's going to say something incriminating.

I've thought about this, but Henry doesn't know anything. I'm not sure how aware he is of where his parents are at any given moment. What could he say?  

29 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Sure he genuinely thought it was cool and exciting. But he's not a wide-eyed 8-year-old being sincere in thinking Stan was the FBI comic book hero. In talking to Stan and his parents he talked about what he really thought was cool--the Vault, the computers, the boss with all the power. He knew he was giving it more patriotic flattery in his essay. He's not lying to Stan about loving the FBI, but he is striking a pose for the essay, which Stan caught. Henry does that. He's getting older and he's a smart, sophisticated kid, one who plays around with different things. He's not Paige talking about how great Pastor Tim's politics are.

I think the "patriotic flattery" in the essay was more for his teachers than for Stan. It is sort of a generation xerox situation. Paige swallows ideology hook line and sinker and easily becomes a true believer like Elizabeth. Henry is more cautious, thoughtful and less likely to dive right in. 

[MisterBluxom]

I'd love to see an episode where the parents would "forbid" either or both of their kids from going to college in the USA and insisting they return to Russia and then the kids tell them that if they don't get off that cloud, they will report them to the FBI and they can just go rot in prison forever. That would make for a very interesting episode.

[sistermagpie]

35 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

But for people who have visited or lived in Russia for any length of time, please tell me, if you can, where is the happiness in that country? Have you ever seen groups of people in public who are laughing and dancing and having a good time? 

Look, video evidence of Russians laughing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6xa3VcxWtI

and dancing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afP71xwLI8Y

And having fun in a crazy way!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_X1G-w3StQ

The videos aren't that interesting. Mostly just Russians acting like normal people capable of laughter in their own country.

7 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I think the "patriotic flattery" in the essay was more for his teachers than for Stan. It is sort of a generation xerox situation. Paige swallows ideology hook line and sinker and easily becomes a true believer like Elizabeth. Henry is more cautious, thoughtful and less likely to dive right in. 

Right, and I don't think Henry was surprised at that. I think he thought Stan would totally get the fun of it.

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Paige reacted in utter horror when going to live in the Soviet Union was brought up.  She was hysterical and didn't care that Henry could probably hear her yelling about spies and the USSR.

Well, yeah, of course. But it's not like she was enthusiastic about foster care by comparison. She wants her life to stay the way it is. Nobody's saying either kid would want to go to the USSR. Just as nobody's saying neither kid wants to be orphaned.

Edited May 18, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

They wouldn't be orphaned if their parents just moved.  Hell, in four years their parents could come back, not that they'd know that of course.  Meanwhile, email, regular mail, they could have contact, even phone calls would be possible, though expensive.

Many college age kids back then leave the nest around that time anyway. 

Aside from all that, they wouldn't even have to lose their parents.  That's up to their parents, who do have other options, which honestly are not as bad as the option they are using now.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Umbelina

[MisterBluxom]

@sistermagpie

Well, OK. I will stand corrected. However, unless I am misunderstanding that first video, what they are laughing at is that someone went into a publicly funded hospital and things when terribly wrong and then that person's life and health was transformed - for the worse - and very much so - and remained that way for a very long time. Did I understand that correctly? I don't speak Russian so I was not sure that I would understand exactly what was going on.

But, even if I did understand things, maybe I should have asked the broader question and maybe I should have directed it to  you.

Do you think Russia is a happy place? Would you prefer to live there instead of living in the West? Or would you prefer to live in the West? I'm farily certain that I would prefer to live here in the West and I thank God that I was born here in the West.  How about you?

Edited May 18, 2017 by MissBluxom

[TaurusRose]

Elizabeth is a murderous bitch.  I'm thanking my lucky stars that I was spared a Paige scene.  That is all.  

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

Do you think Russia is a happy place? Would you prefer to live there instead of living in the West? Or would you prefer to live in the West? I'm farily certain that I would prefer to live here in the West and I thank God that I was born here in the West.  How about you?

Makes no difference where I'd prefer to live. People don't choose where they are born and how a country being their home affects them. My own country often comes up pretty low on polls about happiness but I don't spend much time I was born in one of the countries that scored higher. I know Russian people now who live in Russia and they have laughed in my presence. The country produces sitcoms and other comedies where people laugh at any number of things. Asking how anybody could love Russia is like asking somebody how they can possibly love their mother when you think she seems like a bitch who dresses funny.

[benteen]

7 hours ago, Bannon said:

They are both females living in Russia in 1942. That's about it. We aren't going to agree. That's o.k..

Who have almost the same background and who lived almost the same life.

[Ellaria]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

He could have said no.  He could have been a human being and said no to the murder of one completely innocent man, and a coerced, terrified, drunk child at the time of her "crimes."  Yes, the KGB would be pissed, yes, he'd have to defect, yes that couple would have to run, or be killed by someone else.  Philip didn't have to be a partner to murder.

Someone told her to kill, and her life was at stake, she was obviously in terror after just burying her entire family, being raped, and forced to drink.

What was Philip's excuse?  He was also told to kill and he let it happen. 

Two peas, same pod.

ETA, the difference is Philip is an adult, and didn't (literally) have guns to his head when he participated in murder.

Well said. It keeps getting harder and harder to make excuses for Phillip. We see his guilt and paranoia; he is a completely broken man. Yet, he goes forward and continues to destroy others. Of course, at this point, to choose otherwise probably means death. Frankly, I no longer care. Phillip deserves whatever is coming for him.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

This season?  I kept to my old habits at first, but gave it up around episode 4 or so.  This episode?  Once again, no desire whatsoever to watch it again.  Maybe once the show gets good again, hopefully during the final season, I will appreciate all the endless dangling plot points and dreary, horrifying, sadness of this season?  Or maybe not. 

One problem I realized while thinking of it.  THIS SEASON I care much more about the victims of Philip and Elizabeth, and even of Stan and Aderholt than I do about the stars of the show.  I pretty much hate all of them now, ruining lives willy nilly, and endlessly, or simply ending their lives.  As I said before, in many ways, this is the truest spy season we've had.  Hell, I even understood why she killed that old woman in the mail robot factory, I accepted it, no choice (even though there is no fucking way they would have been the spies to do that operation...

Oh, and once again, Philip has completely lost me too, can't stand that wimp anymore.  Letting Liz kill them makes you just as bad.  For once in your damn life, do what YOU think it best you coward.

Elizabeth...the true believer...is ruthless and cold hearted. I'm not interested in her flashes of regret about her choices. It is endlessly depressing for me to watch her kill for her country and then turn and lie to her daughter. 

I'm tired of all of them, too. Maybe that's what the writers want from their audience. I don't know. This season has been a slog for me because I feel surrounded by characters that I have come to despise...excluding Oleg and Henry.

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

This is where I am, too. They're both soul sick at this point from the work. It's not only the violence, it's the sheer grind of keeping all the balls in the air. Every mission has a different meeting place, different disguise, different character, and they have three or four (more?) going on simultaneously. Then Claudia gives them one-offs like Natalie. And with all of this going on, they're dealing with their daughter's rocky adjustment to knowing the truth, and their son is BFFs with the neighbor FBI agent and wants to go to boarding school. No wonder they want to be done.

Don't get me wrong: If Philip and Elizabeth were real people, I'd want them prosecuted into oblivion. But because they're fictional characters, I'd prefer an ending with some nuance. That doesn't exclude prison necessarily, but death seems too easy.

I'm no longer sure what "end" I want for P&E but I agree that death seems too easy.

[MisterBluxom]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Makes no difference where I'd prefer to live. People don't choose where they are born and how a country being their home affects them. My own country often comes up pretty low on polls about happiness but I don't spend much time I was born in one of the countries that scored higher. I know Russian people now who live in Russia and they have laughed in my presence. The country produces sitcoms and other comedies where people laugh at any number of things. Asking how anybody could love Russia is like asking somebody how they can possibly love their mother when you think she seems like a bitch who dresses funny.

Sure. Fair enough. I was just trying to guage the mood of the people living in Russia.

3 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Well said. It keeps getting harder and harder to make excuses for Phillip. We see his guilt and paranoia; he is a completely broken man. Yet, he goes forward and continues to destroy others. Of course, at this point, to choose otherwise probably means death. Frankly, I no longer care. Phillip deserves whatever is coming for him.

Elizabeth...the true believer...is ruthless and cold hearted. I'm not interested in her flashes of regret about her choices. It is endlessly depressing for me to watch her kill for her country and then turn and lie to her daughter. 

I'm tired of all of them, too. Maybe that's what the writers want from their audience. I don't know. This season has been a slog for me because I feel surrounded by characters that I have come to despise...excluding Oleg and Henry.

I'm no longer sure what "end" I want for P&E but I agree that death seems too easy.

I'm guessing that most people will likely be disappointed with the ending because if we can agree the writers and showrunners are only human and that over the years, they have likely grown to care deeply - even in some way, they have grown to love those characters, they probably will not want to leave them in a state of misery and will try to leave them with some kind of future that is more than just dismal.

Edited May 18, 2017 by MissBluxom

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, benteen said:

Who have almost the same background and who lived almost the same life.

We simply are not going to agree that a 16 year old in an agriculturally based village, who has never left her parents home, has something close to the same background or life as a 20 or 21 year old who has lived and trained as part of the Red Army. To me, these are vastly different people, in background and life. It's fine that you disagree with me.

[fib]

On 5/16/2017 at 8:36 PM, MissBluxom said:

See if you can identify the country to the West

Thats Belarus. 

Ie, dyatkovo is right at the very russian edge of the path from Germany to Moscow - this womans people would have suffered terribly in the first world war, and the second.  

[Erin9]

43 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

Sure. Fair enough. I was just trying to guage the mood of the people living in Russia.

I'm guessing that most people will likely be disappointed with the ending because if we can agree the writers and showrunners are only human and that over the years, they have likely grown to care deeply - even in some way, they have grown to love those characters, they probably will not want to leave them in a state of misery and will try to leave them with some kind of future that is more than just dismal.

I could be wrong, but I don't think most people want a miserable ending for P and E. No one I know in the real world does. But, as I've said, I simply wouldn't spend a second of my time on a show where I hated the main characters so much I wished for a miserable ending for them.   For me, if I'm not invested in them, in a positive way, the show isn't worth my time. 

[Umbelina]

@Erin9

I feel that way too, which is why I wonder why the writers are making them so completely awful this season.  I've never felt that way before about Stan, Philip, Elizabeth, or Aderholt, but this season they are all just endlessly ruining people's lives.  It has sucked for me, not enough to stop watching, I still have hope, though not for this season.

It's become a show of misery, instead of suspense and nuance.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

A note about Natalie, I think Elizabeth was ultimately right that she hadn't changed. I mean, we tend to focus on the ways she had changed--she was a round little grandmother now and no one is the same at 16 as they are as senior citizens. But she committed the crimes she did because she feared for her life. The choice seemed to be to do this or she'd be killed herself, like her family that she had to bury. She chose to commit the crime. I can't say what choice I'd have made in that situation, but it is the reason to chose to murder many people.

After the war she ran away, changed her name and made a nice life for herself. I didn't see any evidence that she was much tormented by guilt. When Philip and Elizabeth showed up she was ready to lie. I'm sure as a younger woman she was often looking over her shoulder wondering if she'd be caught and thought she'd made it this long, she was safe. But she wasn't ready to meet her judgment at the end of her many decades of happiness. She lied, and then the first big emotion she showed was at the prospect of her husband no longer thinking she was wonderful. She continued to present herself as a victim, with her husband also defending her as a victim (so she avoided that punishment too), asking for forgiveness only after the gun is pointed at her. Elizabeth really was the only punishment she got for her crimes.

She really didn't seem to have gone through some big life transition that made the whole thing heartless on their card. I didn't get any particular satisfaction out of watching her murdered, but it's not like she'd paid for her crimes already and they just cruelly didn't get that. It'll be terrible for her family, but the same would be true of any murderer who got caught years later.

[kokapetl]

I get the impression that the Soviet secretary is a prostitute. 

I didn't find Natalie's plot to be believable, aside from her being a sexual plaything for German soldiers. I thought she was probably just going to be someone that Claudia didn't like. Seemed like an assignment that Claudia could have handled herself.   

Considering he's not really a growing teenage boy, how does Tuan eat McDonald's for every meal and stay so trim?

Edited May 18, 2017 by Kokapetl

[Umbelina]

They didn't just murder Natalie though.  They murdered a complete innocent, her husband.

Personally, I don't blame a single war survivor for doing what they had to do to stay alive, especially that particular war, where so many were forced to do things that were horrific, just to live another day.  Whether it was taking gold from corpses teeth, or leading newly arrived children to the Gas Chambers or the creepy medical experiments if they were twins, what choice did any of them really have?  I would have a very hard time judging any concentration camp survivors, or prisoners, as Natalie certainly was.  A teenager, raped, drunk, surrounded by equally drunk murdering enemy soldiers that had just slaughtered her family, and terrified buys you some room for me.

She was dead if she didn't shoot.  Should she have died?  Some would say yes, and I understand that, but I'm just not one of those people.

Philip and Elizabeth?  Cold blooded murder.

ETA

Should Natalie have stood trial for war crimes?  I'd say yes.  In a fair trial, she may have been punished, or not, murdered, or not, but she shouldn't have had her judge and jury be Elizabeth.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Umbelina

[tpplay]

With every episode I hate the two leads more and more.  (Not their acting, of course - that's the only reason I watch.)  I'm actively hoping for them both getting killed in the series finale.  They.  Are.  Awful.

And not by comparison to anything.  It's not relative.  They're awful.

I used to waver, but once E killed the old lady who just happened to be at her workplace when they broke in.  I thought, "I'm right. These two horrible people deserve to die and the sooner the better."

[TimWil]

My agent friend told me the casting notice for Natalie came out in late January and here's how she was described: 

 Natalie is a loving wife, mother & grandmother who has lived a quiet existence with her husband and family since emigrating to the United States over 40 years ago. But Natalie may have a dark past, and when old ghosts come calling she can no longer hide from the life she left behind in Russia... 

[Dowel Jones]

I have a question, about semantics really, on some of the characterizations.  At one point, Claudia refers to "the Red Army", and, later on, Natalie refers to the Russian soldiers as Soviets.  Seeing as how both are of Russian heritage, wouldn't Claudia just say "the Army" and Natalie refer to them as Russians?  Just curious.

[kokapetl]

I think Natalie did say she was born in Russia. Russia was only one of the fifteen republics in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and only fifty one percent of Soviet citizens (in 1990) were ethnically Russian, so the terms are not interchangeable. Claudia and the Jennings work for the Soviet Union. 

The Red Army fought the White Army in the Russian Civil War. It was formally the "Workers' and Peasants' Red Army" up until 1946, when it became the "Soviet Army". 

[AllyB]

23 hours ago, Ina123 said:

From what we saw of Henry's visit, I would have thought his first words to his parents would have been about the mail robot. That would have provoked memory of Elizabeth forcing the older woman to OD on her meds while Phillip bugged the mail robot. They could have exchanged those  furtive glances more befitting of their current mood.

Or Henry's next conversation will be about the mail robot and how he wants too go into robotics.

I thought that they did achieve that with Henry talking about the computer room. Philip remembers murdering Gene just to buy Martha a few more months and seeing Henry's enthusiasm for the computers, he considers how similar Henry is to how poor Gene was.

[AllyB]

7 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

Do you think Russia is a happy place? Would you prefer to live there instead of living in the West? Or would you prefer to live in the West? I'm farily certain that I would prefer to live here in the West and I thank God that I was born here in the West.  How about you?

Of course Russia is a happy place with happy people in it. It's just a country with all sorts of people living there. I wouldn't especially like to live there, either under the Soviets or Putin but to be quite honest I really, really wouldn't want to live in America either. The thought of living without socialised healthcare is both genuinely terrifying and utterly preposterous to me. The thought of getting into any sort of debt just to get a university education makes the mind boggle, how can poor children have any real expectation of upward mobility if their entire education isn't provided by the state? Not having a generous social security net seems barbaric. But more than that, it's the weird unrealistic idea of living 'in the best country in the world' that really makes me feel grateful to not be American. Because while I understand how utterly, utterly privileged I am to have been born in a time and place where my life can be one defined mainly by comfort and freedom, I can also see how my country has many, many, many faults. Faults that would make it a country many people would not choose to live in, faults that need to be addressed and fought hard against. Some faults that America does not have. My country is not the greatest country on earth, no country is. Each country has faults and any sort of blind patriotism, deliberate ignorance of what other countries may be getting better, insistence that we're happier than people in other countries, an idea that we are better because of where we come from, etc, is just a guarantee that we can never fix what is wrong and an almost certainty that we will lose what freedoms past generations secured for us.