S12.E21: There's Something About Mary

[Idahoforspn]

16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I agree totally ew! The shows consent issues have been a source of annoyance for me for a while now, but that's for another day haha.

 

Maybe I misunderstood but I took what happened to Mary and Sam as two different things. I thought with Sam she created a false scenario in his head to trick him into giving up information, but he was normal once he snapped out of it. Whereas with Mary they seemed to be going for she's become a full blown slave to their will. 

This is what I saw too.

[DittyDotDot]

52 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Maybe I misunderstood but I took what happened to Mary and Sam as two different things. I thought with Sam she created a false scenario in his head to trick him into giving up information, but he was normal once he snapped out of it. Whereas with Mary they seemed to be going for she's become a full blown slave to their will. 

I saw them as separate things too. I think what she did to Sam was, as you said, create a nice illusion that would allow him to put down his defenses and talk to her. With Mary it was a type of conditioning not unlike what Naomi did to Cass back in S8 when she had him killing Dean over and over and over again. I don't buy they could do it in the time frame they had, but it wouldn't be the first time the show hasn't convinced me of something.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

• I felt emotional when they're checking Mary's motel room and Dean goes straight for the bath tub. A surprisingly subtle, for Bucklemming, sign of his worry she may have ended up like Charlie. It was especially chilling considering the scene that preceded it. 

or that was a Jensen ad lib. Because he was pretty livid over Charlie's demise .

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

or that was a Jensen ad lib. Because he was pretty livid over Charlie's demise .

It certainly could have been that too! Either way, I thought it was a really chilling and well done moment! I didn't notice it when the trailer was released, but then when we saw it combined with Eileen's death the scene before the Charlie reference really stood out! 

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Jediknight said:

And Dean's gotta get his Busty Asian Beauties.

He picks that up at the Gas N Sip!

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

It certainly could have been that too! Either way, I thought it was a really chilling and well done moment! I didn't notice it when the trailer was released, but then when we saw it combined with Eileen's death the scene before the Charlie reference really stood out! 

I hope it was Jensen because if it was BLemming it's a gross smug reference to their own disgusting handiwork as the executioners of Robbie Thompson's characters.

[Idahoforspn]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

or that was a Jensen ad lib. Because he was pretty livid over Charlie's demise .

Probably Jensen, along with the knee slide and behind the back shot. What would we do without him!

Edited May 12, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[ZennyKenny]

I made a thing, in honor of this episode.

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I made a thing, in honor of this episode.

I want to give this lots of hearts. This would be really really funny if it wasn't true.

[AngelKitty]

I am quite sick of these British Men of Letters.  This show is supposed to be about hunting and killing demons and monsters, not humans.

[ZennyKenny]

4 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

Just so you know, I'm now going to hold you personally responsible if we get outrageously over the top declarations of partially conditional unconditional and undying really they don't stay dead love in the finale. You've doomed us all man!

...I mean, if it means Benny comes back.

[Binns]

Just stopping in to say "f you very much BuckLemming" for killing off 

1. A strong, capable, female character

2. Who is also hearing-impaired and who has commented on actors with disabilities struggling with getting roles 

3. Who may have also been a sweetheart of Sam

4. Who was beloved by fandom, so why not give her a grisly death 

5. When there was NO REASON for it. There have been hunters dying all over the place. It was no fun to hear about all of them. You threw this death in for cheap shock value. 

5. Oh, and while you're at it, go ahead and play more mind-rape games but this time with someone's mother, and make sure to lovingly film her breakdown, in which she is driven to the point of suicide. 

 

Hated this episode. If it wasn't for J2's acting, as well as Sam Smith's, I'm not sure I would keep it on my dvr. 

 

Edit- forgot to add I'm pretty sure Crowley has something up his sleeve. I feel like he would have been thinking ahead to something like this happening and has something built in for this. Not to mention when Lucifer was flopping him around in the air before "killing" him I'm pretty sure I saw a smirk on Crowley's face. I thought the rat was Rowena- forgot about Olivette! 

Edited May 12, 2017 by Binns
Crowley thoughts

[7kstar]

22 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

It's almost.. poetic." No, Ketch. It's an outdated trope for the villain to leave the hero alive in a trap, as opposed to just killing them, that got tired back in the 80s with the James Bond movies.

Shoot wasn't it something they did in all of the old 60's and 70's cliffhangers, especially the old Batman series.  How many times were we left wondering if our heroes could get loose and escape before their untimely death.  Which is why I thought this ep was so predictable.  I couldn't even get excited about our boys finally hunting for the bugs.

Oh writers can't you come up with something new?  Why not make me care about the bad guy before you kill them off.  Why draw up characters that are one dimensional?  Even if you redeem any of these characters, it's too late...

Is it possible for Dean to launch his grenade launcher ...now?

Poor Crowley, good help is soooo hard to find.  lol

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, Binns said:

Just stopping in to say "f you very much BuckLemming" for killing off 

1. A strong, capable, female character

2. Who is also hearing-impaired and who has commented on actors with disabilities struggling with getting roles 

3. Who may have also been a sweetheart of Sam

4. Who was beloved by fandom, so why not give her a grisly death 

5. When there was NO REASON for it. There have been hunters dying all over the place. It was no fun to hear about all of them. You threw this death in for cheap shock value. 

5. Oh, and while you're at it, go ahead and play more mind-rape games but this time with someone's mother, and make sure to lovingly film her breakdown, in which she is driven to the point of suicide. 

I've said it before, this show hates female characters.  They're expendable and only exist to give Sam and Dean someone to pine over as they go about righting wrongs.

[Goldmoon]

Why didn't Eileen text Sam? I know she is deaf but didn't she text the boys before? Why write a letter that could be delayed? oh yeah, so it could be delayed!

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

Why didn't Eileen text Sam? I know she is deaf but didn't she text the boys before? Why write a letter that could be delayed? oh yeah, so it could be delayed!

She said she went snail mail because she thought her phones and computers were compromised.

[AwesomO4000]

And they probably were.

[Mick Lady]

2 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Is it possible for Dean to launch his grenade launcher ...now?

Poor Crowley, good help is soooo hard to find.  lol

These last two lines had me laughing so hard, Mick said, "What the hell is going on!" I said "7kstar posted!" he replied, "Let me see!"

We really want to see the grenade launcher used. Chekov's grenade launcher and all. Hasn't it been around since the first season?

Hey 7kstar! Hope things are going well with you!

[mertensia]

13 hours ago, Dobian said:

I have to disagree.  Turning someone into the Manchurian Candidate is on a whole other level than trying to torture information out of them.  And the subject has to be complicit, a willing participant after a long period of psychological manipulation, building trust, loyalty, etc.  Not simply by tossing them into a room and inducing a few hallucinations.  You don't get to incapacitate Mary at the tail end of one episode, and by the beginning of the next episode (and with no apparent time jump in between, like "six months later") she's been reprogrammed.  Since they're throwing magic into the mix, you might as well just toss the brainwashing premise out the window, have BMoL wave a magic wand, and voila, Mary is their puppet.

I don't pretend to be an expert but I remember an interview with Jessyca Mullenberg where she said it only took about a month for her not to remember her own name. She was rescued roughly 3 1/2 months after her kidnapping and had no memories of her family. Add drugs and magic into the mix and yeah, I can believe the timeline.

[ahrtee]

I just rewatched the first 10 minutes or so, and while everyone has pretty much already covered most of my annoyances with the ep, there's one question I haven't seen anyone ask yet (or did I miss it?):

If Hellhounds are invisible, and Eileen is deaf, (a) how did she even know that one was after her before it ripped her to shreds, and (b) how did she know which way to run to try to get away from it?

Just curious.

[bettername2come]

11 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I just rewatched the first 10 minutes or so, and while everyone has pretty much already covered most of my annoyances with the ep, there's one question I haven't seen anyone ask yet (or did I miss it?):

If Hellhounds are invisible, and Eileen is deaf, (a) how did she even know that one was after her before it ripped her to shreds, and (b) how did she know which way to run to try to get away from it?

Just curious.

Maybe they smell like sulfur? Or, um,  the leaves were moving? But yeah, that's a good catch.

[ahrtee]

If I wanted to give the writers an out (which I don't!) I might say Ketch showed up in Eileen's room, and instead of just shooting her, told her he'd sicced a hellhound on her and told her to run, which would actually be in character for him.  Otherwise, she had no reason to even *think* one was after her, much less know how to get away.  But there I go, trying to look for logic....*sigh*

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

If I wanted to give the writers an out (which I don't!) I might say Ketch showed up in Eileen's room, and instead of just shooting her, told her he'd sicced a hellhound on her and told her to run, which would actually be in character for him.  Otherwise, she had no reason to even *think* one was after her, much less know how to get away.  But there I go, trying to look for logic....*sigh*

Head!canon...accepted

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I just rewatched the first 10 minutes or so, and while everyone has pretty much already covered most of my annoyances with the ep, there's one question I haven't seen anyone ask yet (or did I miss it?):

If Hellhounds are invisible, and Eileen is deaf, (a) how did she even know that one was after her before it ripped her to shreds, and (b) how did she know which way to run to try to get away from it?

Just curious.

It could be that since hellhounds are supernatural beings that only their intended victim can hear, maybe she could hear them in a supernatural way? But also, I'm sure she could still use her other senses and could feel their vibrations, smell their breath and stuff. I mean she was an experienced hunter as well as being deaf.

Edited May 14, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Idahoforspn]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

It could be that since hellhounds are supernatural beings that only their intended victim can hear, maybe she could hear them in a supernatural way? But also, I'm sure she could still use her other senses and could feel their vibrations, smell their breath and stuff. I mean she was an experienced hunter as well as being deaf.

 Man, too much thinking.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

It could be that since hellhounds are supernatural beings that only their intended victim can hear, maybe she could hear them in a supernatural way? But also, I'm sure she could still use her other senses and could feel their vibrations, smell their breath and stuff. I mean she was an experienced hunter as well as being deaf.

They actually blocked out the sounds during part of that scene, so that we could somewhat experience it as Eillen was.  So, I'm going to say, that yes, there was smell, vibrations, the hell hounds affecting things such as trees and branches around it.

[ahrtee]

47 minutes ago, Katy M said:

They actually blocked out the sounds during part of that scene, so that we could somewhat experience it as Eillen was.  So, I'm going to say, that yes, there was smell, vibrations, the hell hounds affecting things such as trees and branches around it.

I can buy that once she was running through the woods, being chased.  The sticking point for me was how and even *why* she knew a hellhound was after her, unless someone told her.  Though maybe I can accept the "inaudible to human ears" howling that she could recognize from reading descriptions?  

No one ever explained  why she was in South Carolina to start with, though.  If she was worried enough about the BMOL to leave Ireland and think her phone and computer were bugged, why didn't she fly directly to Kansas instead of writing them first?  Did she think they'd say no?

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I can buy that once she was running through the woods, being chased.  The sticking point for me was how and even *why* she knew a hellhound was after her, unless someone told her.  Though maybe I can accept the "inaudible to human ears" howling that she could recognize from reading descriptions?  

I don't know that she knew it was a hellhound necessarily, but maybe just sensed that there was danger and ran away from it?

[Macbeth]

On 5/12/2017 at 9:13 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Crowley being in league with the BMOL is so stupidly stupid, I don`t even know what to say. Sure, Crowley will make opportunistic deals like that but the BMOL? The super-rigid, obsessed "no monster alive"? Urgh.

I have to respectfully disagree.  He is the King of Hell of course he is going to make deals with the worse sort of humans.  He has to know what is going on, so he can look out for himself.  If he is going to screw with humans, he might as well screw with the worst humanity has to offer.

Of course the really stupid thing he has done was to bring back Lucifer.  Entertaining for us well me really, but potentially fatal for him.

He better pray no one steps on the rat a/k/a hamster a/k/a ferret. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I have to respectfully disagree.  He is the King of Hell of course he is going to make deals with the worse sort of humans.

You misunderstood me. I meant it as "fine, Crowley will make deals with anyone if it benefits him but I don`t buy the BMOL making deals with Crowley or any demons/supernatural creatures." They have been established as totally rigid and fanatical in their beliefs and with that mindset, this is not something they would do." 

[Macbeth]

On 5/12/2017 at 4:27 PM, DittyDotDot said:

With Mary it was a type of conditioning not unlike what Naomi did to Cass back in S8 when she had him killing Dean over and over and over again.

I was definitely having Naomi flashbacks as well. 

Given that John is an A hole, Mary being one as well is pretty much par for the course.  However, even if John wasn't, I am pretty sure Mary would be portrayed as a bitch as this set of writers are unable to portray women as anything other than bitches. IMO

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I can buy that once she was running through the woods, being chased.  The sticking point for me was how and even *why* she knew a hellhound was after her, unless someone told her.  Though maybe I can accept the "inaudible to human ears" howling that she could recognize from reading descriptions?  

No one ever explained  why she was in South Carolina to start with, though.  If she was worried enough about the BMOL to leave Ireland and think her phone and computer were bugged, why didn't she fly directly to Kansas instead of writing them first?  Did she think they'd say no?

Maybe Eileen never made it to Ireland but got a call from someone close to her who lived in South Carolina so she went there to help before realizing that the BMOL were on to her.  Maybe we'll find out

Spoiler

that Walt  gave up Eileen's location to the BMOL for reasons and Sam finds that out and kills Walt for giving up Eileen.

Edited May 14, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

You misunderstood me. I meant it as "fine, Crowley will make deals with anyone if it benefits him but I don`t buy the BMOL making deals with Crowley or any demons/supernatural creatures." They have been established as totally rigid and fanatical in their beliefs and with that mindset, this is not something they would do." 

Maybe they're fanatical about shoring up power and control rather than about hunting monsters, though. They seem much more interested in snuffing out disobedience than they do in snuffing out monsters anyway.

I don't really have a problem with the idea that they've made a deal that goes against their supposed ideology because they think it gives them more control over what goes on in their "country." That actually seems reasonably realistic to me. YMMV.

[ahrtee]

20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

You misunderstood me. I meant it as "fine, Crowley will make deals with anyone if it benefits him but I don`t buy the BMOL making deals with Crowley or any demons/supernatural creatures." They have been established as totally rigid and fanatical in their beliefs and with that mindset, this is not something they would do." 

Well, since Crowley has only been King for a few years, and we know demons have been around GB buying souls for at least 19 years (Bela died in season 3  which was ten years after her deal) it seems that the BMOL have had a longstanding deal with the demons.  Or maybe they didn't get rid of all the monsters till after that? (Eileen's parents were killed by a banshee over 20 years ago.  Did the BMOL ever say exactly how long since they've had monsters? ... I know there was discussion if Ireland fell under the BMOL protection, but I can't remember if it got resolved.)    

[MysteryGuest]

52 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe Eileen never made it to Ireland but got a call from someone close to her who lived in South Carolina so she went there to help before realizing that the BMOL were on to her. 

I think we were told that Eileen went back to Ireland, but soon began to suspect that she was being watched and that her computer and phone had been hacked.  That's why she wrote the letter to Sam and Dean, rather than just texting or calling them.  What doesn't make sense is why she didn't go directly to them.  They could have killed her off just as easily in Kansas as anywhere else.  I'm guessing she was lured there by the BMOL somehow, since Ketch knew exactly where she was.

[SueB]

28 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, since Crowley has only been King for a few years, and we know demons have been around GB buying souls for at least 19 years (Bela died in season 3  which was ten years after her deal) it seems that the BMOL have had a longstanding deal with the demons.  Or maybe they didn't get rid of all the monsters till after that? (Eileen's parents were killed by a banshee over 20 years ago.  Did the BMOL ever say exactly how long since they've had monsters? ... I know there was discussion if Ireland fell under the BMOL protection, but I can't remember if it got resolved.)    

I think Crowley maintained Pre-existing deals. And sometime early in his 'reign', went around introducing himself and shoring us arrangements.  And with the nephilim floating about and NOT 'handled' by Sam and Dean, it makes sense that Crowley would cooperate with the Brits.  

Thinking on it more, perhaps Ketch summoned Crowley because he couldn't find Eileen and needed to call in a super-tracker (I.e. a Hell-Hound). Even Sam and Dean couldn't escape a Hell-Hound that was after Dean.  And I could see Ketch being given the go-ahead because she was a high value target (killed a BMoL). But Crowley didn't just show up with a Hell Hound. He gave the whistle and control over (temporarily at least). 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think we were told that Eileen went back to Ireland, but soon began to suspect that she was being watched and that her computer and phone had been hacked.  That's why she wrote the letter to Sam and Dean, rather than just texting or calling them.  What doesn't make sense is why she didn't go directly to them.  They could have killed her off just as easily in Kansas as anywhere else.  I'm guessing she was lured there by the BMOL somehow, since Ketch knew exactly where she was.

It was presumed she went back to Ireland. I'm thinking she never did get back there.

[ahrtee]

Also...how did Jody find out about Eileen before Sam and Dean?  She wasn't anywhere near S.D., and what would appear to be a random animal attack wouldn't ping any interstate warnings so quickly (or at all?)  Maybe Claire found about it and called her, but in that case, why not call Sam and Dean directly?  

I also can't remember Jody ever meeting Eileen.  Can someone clarify it for me?  

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Also...how did Jody find out about Eileen before Sam and Dean?  She wasn't anywhere near S.D., and what would appear to be a random animal attack wouldn't ping any interstate warnings so quickly (or at all?)  Maybe Claire found about it and called her, but in that case, why not call Sam and Dean directly?  

I also can't remember Jody ever meeting Eileen.  Can someone clarify it for me?  

They said Jody heard about a wild animal mauling in a place where that was unusual so she got wind of it via police blotter I guess. But no, Jody never met Eileen. Maybe Sam mentioned Eileen in conversation and Dean said, 'He likes her". And Jody remembered that...? That's totally head!canon though.

Edited May 14, 2017 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Also...how did Jody find out about Eileen before Sam and Dean?  She wasn't anywhere near S.D., and what would appear to be a random animal attack wouldn't ping any interstate warnings so quickly (or at all?)  Maybe Claire found about it and called her, but in that case, why not call Sam and Dean directly?  

I also can't remember Jody ever meeting Eileen.  Can someone clarify it for me?

I don't know that they ever did meet, honestly.  But I think they've been talking about Jody hunting more than she ever did, and being involved with other hunters besides just Sam and Dean.  Maybe she's the new Bobby now?

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Also...how did Jody find out about Eileen before Sam and Dean?  She wasn't anywhere near S.D., and what would appear to be a random animal attack wouldn't ping any interstate warnings so quickly (or at all?)  Maybe Claire found about it and called her, but in that case, why not call Sam and Dean directly?  

I think Jodi's just started being on the lookout for weird shit anymore and it was supposed to be a animal attack in an area where there shouldn't be--don't ask me why animals don't attack in that part of the country, though--being sheriff would put Jodi in position to hear stuff that doesn't necessarily make the papers.

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I also can't remember Jody ever meeting Eileen.  Can someone clarify it for me?  

As far as I know they've never met.

 

ETA: What @catrox14 and @MysteryGuest said.

Edited May 14, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Maybe she's the new Bobby now?

I doubt it. Jody doesn't hunt, neither does Donna unless they come upon something.

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I can buy that once she was running through the woods, being chased.  The sticking point for me was how and even *why* she knew a hellhound was after her, unless someone told her.  Though maybe I can accept the "inaudible to human ears" howling that she could recognize from reading descriptions?  

No one ever explained  why she was in South Carolina to start with, though.  If she was worried enough about the BMOL to leave Ireland and think her phone and computer were bugged, why didn't she fly directly to Kansas instead of writing them first?  Did she

KEtch was right there.  Maybe she was running from him.  And Speaking of Ketch, maybe he texted her pretending to be Sam or Dean and asked her to meet in SC.

 

16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Also...how did Jody find out about Eileen before Sam and Dean?  She wasn't anywhere near S.D., and what would appear to be a random animal attack wouldn't ping any interstate warnings so quickly (or at all?)  Maybe Claire found about it and called her, but in that case, why not call Sam and Dean directly?  

I'm

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

12 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 

I doubt it. Jody doesn't hunt, neither does Donna unless they come upon something.

Jodie hunts.  Claire said that she was hunting with her but got bored because she always had to sit in the car.

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I doubt it. Jody doesn't hunt, neither does Donna unless they come upon something.

I think Jody's been hunting more.  Maybe after she got involved with Asa Fox.  Those hunters all knew who she was, and Claire mentioned that Jody was hunting.  As a police officer, maybe she just monitors the murders and unusual deaths, and then checks out names.  I have no idea, but it didn't seem weird to me that she would know.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think Jody's been hunting more.  Maybe after she got involved with Asa Fox.  Those hunters all knew who she was, and Claire mentioned that Jody was hunting.  As a police officer, maybe she just monitors the murders and unusual deaths, and then checks out names.  I have no idea, but it didn't seem weird to me that she would know.

How could she have the time to do it and still be a sheriff?

I think she sees weird things and follows up but I don't think she's working cases in the way Claire or Dean or Sam have.

[Wayward Son]

Yeah my impression is that Jody is still a sheriff and not an actual hunter. The impression I have, is that as someone aware of the supernatural world, she can recognise the signs if she stumbles across something supernatural. However, rather than act on it herself as a hunter would, she calls on Sam and Dean to come and deal with it! 

[MysteryGuest]

I don't know, but Claire did say that she was hunting.  How much she was hunting is anyone's guess.

[rue721]

She's a public servant -- lots of PTO.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

She's a public servant -- lots of PTO.

Even so, I'm disinclined to think she's using her time off to hunt.

We know she used one day off to Netflix and pizza until the boys showed up at her doorstep. LOL

I just don't think she looks for cases and goes after them like most hunters. IMO, she's a part time hunter at most.

[rue721]

How much is a "normal" amount of hunting, though? I always wonder about that. IMO Sam and Dean seem to be on the extreme end in that they're so SO obsessed with it, and hunting is pretty much their whole lives. But other characters manage to maintain relationships and jobs, etc. Even Mr. "Town Drunk" Bobby had his junkyard and home. Samual and Deanna raised a family and had a home, too.

[companionenvy]

Yeah, I think there are degrees, among hunters -- there are the people "in the life," who basically hunt full time, and others who take cases more sporadically. Jodi probably isn't going on a hunt every few days, but the show has been treating her like a hunter this season, and it seems like a frequent enough thing that she has graduated from "sheriff who knows about the supernatural and gets involved if she has to" to "actively looking for things that seem hinky and following up on them."

If Philip and Elizabeth Jennings can juggle a full-time job, parenthood, and spying (long-term affairs, fake marriages, and fake sons sometimes included!), I'll buy that Jodi can be a sheriff and sometime hunter. 

Which also reinforces how stupid and downright sociopathic the BMOL's kill all hunters policy is. If you have someone like Jody Mills on your hit-list, you're casting a pretty wide net -- and going well beyond people who could plausibly be considered a threat to your plans.

Edited May 14, 2017 by companionenvy