S06.E21: The Final Battle Part 1 / S06.E22: The Final Battle Part 2

[Rumsy4]

The Last Supper imagery was mildly offensive to me. And I agree it makes no sense in-context either. Better have gone with Thanksgiving instead. It would've fit with David's comment in S2.

32 minutes ago, Katherine said:

But I guess that would mean he wouldn't get to continue being the Dark One for the reboot, and the writers can't have that. They're as dependent on Rumple's magic as Rumple is.

Pretty much.

[AudienceofOne]

31 minutes ago, Katherine said:

To the surprise of no one, Adam confirmed on Twitter that the final scene at Granny's intentionally mirrored the Last Supper. My question is...why?

Well, you see Emma is a Christ figure. 

...

...

...

What? That isn't enough? This still makes no sense? 

Also, somebody needs to tell the showrunners that "Christ figure" is hands down the laziest writing in all of history and "Generic Biblical References" are a close second. There is nothing about Emma that is actually a Christ figure except the broadest sweeping statements: "Born to Save us All" and "Willing to Die for Us". I'll also happily throw in "A Magic Book" and "A Prophecy" but these are all taken from the same narrative tradition that came up with the Jesus myth in the first place. It's like saying that Mary Margaret is the Virgin Mary because "She is literally Snow White" and "She Gave Birth to the Saviour". I'd love to know what all of this makes Regina but I actually think that, if she had existed, Mary Magdalene would have been fucking awesome and so was naturally screwed over by the early Church. I very much doubt she needed to "Be Saved" by "Christ's Love".

Of course, all of this could explain why the writers couldn't deal with the Hook Factor. Unless they're of the school that thinks Jesus never married for a very good reason and his name was Simon.

[Shanna Marie]

I guess it didn't occur to them that the Last Supper wasn't a big, happy celebration. It was a tension-fraught evening that was followed by betrayal, desertion, and a crucifixion. It's a scene before the Final Battle, not afterward. That's not the imagery you want to use if you're depicting a happy ending/beginning, life goes on, we're all family here mood, which was what they seemed to be going for here, with all the smiling, laughing, and hugging. Maybe they're setting up for what goes horribly wrong to set up the next season, but even that doesn't work with Emma at the center, since she's leaving the show (and will presumably be gone longer than three days).

Maybe they were inspired by Battlestar Galactica using that imagery, but that was a promo photo to tease the upcoming season. It wasn't actually in the episode.

[Rumsy4]

Okay. I realized where they got the idea for the Last Supper imagery from=LOST. The Show they've been liberally stealing ideas from all along. LOST Supper was used as promo for the final season.

 

[InsertWordHere]

LOST and Battlestar Galactica both did The Last Supper, but it was used as promo material, not the last scene of the series as we know it. Also, it made a lot more sense in the context of those shows. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

I suppose it's good for A&E that they didn't show just how Rumple immunized himself to this Dark Curse, because it was, for instance, a potion, we'd all be asking why Regina and Zelena didn't know how to brew it.

[Camera One]

They wouldn't have time to brew it since they all had to attend that wedding.  Getting married 10 minutes before possible death is so romantic.  Just like "The Last Supper" is the perfect imagery for happiness.  Too bad they didn't throw in the happiness of the plagues of Egypt.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

They wouldn't have time to brew it since they all had to attend that wedding.  Getting married 10 minutes before possible death is so romantic.  Just like "The Last Supper" is the perfect imagery for happiness.  Too bad they didn't throw in the happiness of the plagues of Egypt.

But then everyone rejoices as Regina is resurrected. #ChurchOfA&E

Edited May 22, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Alternate ending for this episode if Season 7 hadn't been a reboot.

THE FAMILY eats The Last Supper at Granny's after The Final Battle was won.

1 week later... 

EMMA: What a wonderful off-screen honeymoon.

HOOK: Wasn't it?  

Dark black cloud funnels into Storybrooke.

EMMA: What's that?

DAVID: I just ran all the way into town from my new farm when I saw the dark smoke!  Snow has the flu and she hasn't woken up for days.  

Out of the smoke walks two figures.

EMMA: Who is there!

FROLLO:  Ahh... so you are the Post-Savior.  You may have won The Final Battle, but we're here to defeat you in The War To End All Wars.

GOVERNOR RADCLIFFE:  And this town is mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine.  You will NEVER find the secret weapon that can defeat the two of us.

REGINA: Oh no, he just uttered the final final final final fail-safe words which will initiate a new Curse with him as Mayor!

EMMA and REGINA raise their hands to do magic.

Our collective jaws drop as both of them have hand tremors, as DOES THE ENTIRE TOWN!

FLASHBACK: A long time ago because we don't want to bother keeping track of any timeline

ENCHANTED FOREST.  Dark woods.  

TIGER LILY:  It's me.  Did you find the weapon for The War To End All Wars that I conveniently forgot to mention?

POCAHONTAS:  Yes.  I have The Colors of the Wind.  

TIGER LILY: Let's put that somewhere safe so no one can find it until they do and it turns out to be useless.

-------------------------

This is why A&E didn't plan an ending... this show can continue indefinitely with whatever random crap they happen to want to throw onscreen.  They can take from the pantheon of folktales, fairy tales, old novels, and then claim to be "reworking" it in "original" ways.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Camera One

[Curio]

8 minutes ago, Camera One said:

EMMA: What a wonderful off-screen honeymoon.

HOOK: Wasn't it?  

Honestly, this is why I'm not as upset about Jen's departure as I could be. Obviously, I would rather have Emma on the show than not, but even if she did come back for Season 7, you just know A&E would pull this stunt.

[tennisgurl]

3 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

Also, it made a lot more sense in the context of those shows. 

Yeah, that's why the whole Last Supper ending was so bizarre to me. Lost and BSG had tons of biblical references, and the nature of faith was a big part of both shows. This show awkwardly tiptoed around the Holy Grail in the Camelot arc without actually acknowledging anything remotely biblical, and the closest its gotten to being about the nature of faith was when Henry was screaming at random passers by in New York City about believing in magic, in one of the most embarrassing scenes in the history of the show. It just came off as really stupid and random, like it was something they saw other, better shows doing, and felt like they should do it too.

[KingOfHearts]

I don't think this episode was the worst of the series. IMO, the S5 finale still holds that title. I found this one mostly dumb and forgettable, but not any more offensive that the rest of S6. At least it didn't have a notorious fountain speech. The S5 finale was more infuriating because the season preceding it was so much better and had a lot of threads that didn't get payoff. The irony is that the S6 finale did have payoff for the season it was ending. (But for the rest of the show? Hell no.)

Edited May 22, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Kktjones]

I agree that this wasn't the worst episode of the series, or even the season (Wish Realm anyone?), but as a closing episode for the current storyline and for most of the main cast, it was incredibly disappointing. Given they knew who was leaving, I still don't understand how they could split everyone up and have Emma in a sad, zombie state for most of the two hours. Slapping a happily ever after montage at the end of that doesn't make it satisfying. I still think they all should have been cursed to the EF (except Henry), with the goal of fighting to get back to him (or some such adventure where everyone was included). At this point they know Captain Swan is a huge draw for the remaining audience, so why not let them have a couple episodes together as a married couple? Why not let Emma spend some time with her parents back in their home realm? So many better possibilities than what they came up with...

[Camera One]

I agree the Season 5 finale was worse, because the whole premise of that one was unbelievable from the start (Henry going to NYC to destroy magic... again).

This one was mostly just boring, with the Season 1 retread.  The adventure in this episode for the separated characters vs. the adventure in The Land of Untold Stories for the separated characters... I think the latter was actually more interesting, but not by much.  

In the pre-final special, Eddy was boasting that they were the first to put a sword in Snow White's hands.  And then this 2-hour finale had Snow MIA while the men went to climb a beanstalk, and the smart magic-capable women went to make a potion.  But wait, Snow later got to cry over her dying husband.  And her happily ever beginning was to continue the meek existence she got as a freak'in punishment for 28 years.  You really revolutionized the Snow character, Eddy.

[CCTC]

35 minutes ago, Camera One said:

In the pre-final special, Eddy was boasting that they were the first to put a sword in Snow White's hands.  And then this 2-hour finale had Snow MIA while the men went to climb a beanstalk, and the smart magic-capable women went to make a potion.

Also, Snow was also in the role of the classic female hostage when Gideon held her at sword point to get to Emma.  Emma herself was pretty passive in the whole two hours, Belle fell and twisted her ankle running in heels, and even Regina and Zelina and their magic  were ineffective.  The only reason they returned is because Gold killed his mother which broke the curse.

[Socks]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I agree the Season 5 finale was worse, because the whole premise of that one was unbelievable from the start (Henry going to NYC to destroy magic... again).

This one was mostly just boring, with the Season 1 retread.  The adventure in this episode for the separated characters vs. the adventure in The Land of Untold Stories for the separated characters... I think the latter was actually more interesting, but not by much.  

In the pre-final special, Eddy was boasting that they were the first to put a sword in Snow White's hands.  And then this 2-hour finale had Snow MIA while the men went to climb a beanstalk, and the smart magic-capable women went to make a potion.  But wait, Snow later got to cry over her dying husband.  And her happily ever beginning was to continue the meek existence she got as a freak'in punishment for 28 years.  You really revolutionized the Snow character, Eddy.

Well Snow had a baby along the way donchaknow. As the womenfolk are meant to do. And somebody had to hold him. So there's that. 

[Dianthus]

So I finally got to sit down yesterday and watch these last three episodes. Damn I'm glad I knew what I was in for from the start! I'll admit I got a little verklempt at the wedding. Too bad Regina and Zelena couldn't rise to the occasion. It wouldn't have been so bad if Regina wasn't always so f*cking smug about her magic.

The Captain Charming bromance was cute, but CS would've meant a lot more to me. As others have said, they made such a big deal about getting the bean, and Hook using said bean, and Emma's flashes of memeory/ the pic of Hook as the book was burning, but then ignored it all entirely. WTF Show?!?

A & E are even more delusional than I realized if they think they're going to attract a whole bunch of new viewers with a reboot, especially if they're going with what looks to be a retread of s1. Speaking of...I haven't really been rewatching the show (aside from the CS movie), so seeing s1 Henry again was really jolting. I'd forgotten just how young he was then. Also, wasn't the little girl supposed to have a perpetual spark of mischief in her eyes or some such nonsense. I didn't see any of that.

[Camera One]

The baby was not in sight when she later went to look for David.  Nor was the baby in sight for much of 6B.  Zelena was also holding a baby and she was allowed to be useful.

[Socks]

27 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The baby was not in sight when she later went to look for David.  Nor was the baby in sight for much of 6B.  Zelena was also holding a baby and she was allowed to be useful.

I was joking. Very much joking. 

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

And her happily ever beginning was to continue the meek existence she got as a freak'in punishment for 28 years.  You really revolutionized the Snow character, Eddy.

They turned Snow into a bland boring cardboard cutout that spouts hope speeches when you press a button. 

2 hours ago, CCTC said:

Also, Snow was also in the role of the classic female hostage when Gideon held her at sword point to get to Emma.  Emma herself was pretty passive in the whole two hours, Belle fell and twisted her ankle running in heels, and even Regina and Zelina and their magic  were ineffective.  The only reason they returned is because Gold killed his mother which broke the curse.

Yup. Very revolutionary. Female empowerment at its finest.

51 minutes ago, Dianthus said:

Also, wasn't the little girl supposed to have a perpetual spark of mischief in her eyes or some such nonsense. I didn't see any of that.

Neither did I. She was on the borderline of being annoyingly precocious. 

[Camera One]

When the little girl offered to go out of the cave dwelling to fight the monster/invaders, they lost me.  There's Brave™ and there's completely unrealistic.

[KingOfHearts]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

I agree the Season 5 finale was worse, because the whole premise of that one was unbelievable from the start (Henry going to NYC to destroy magic... again).

All the other season finales had relevance to the rest of the season. S3's concluded Emma's home arc, S4's was about the Author, and S6's was the Final Battle, as well as the manifestation of Emma's savior prophecy. S5's finale had nothing at all to do with S5. 

I give the S6 finale the credit of being an actual conclusion to the season. It took crappy plots and ended them in a semi-decent fashion. Nothing exclusive to S6 was left lingering.

[Camera One]

9 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

S5's finale had nothing at all to do with S5. 

The S5 finale basically spent 2 hours on setup for S6.  The Land of Untold Stories, the Splitting of Regina, Rumple losing track of Belle in a Box.  The only character with a story arc that actually began in Season 6 was Emma's death prophesy.  

This finale did set up for next season but it was interspersed as flashbacks, and then the last 5 minutes.  Most of the other finales set up the next season or arc in the last 5-15 minutes.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Camera One

[Olivia Y]

Isn't TLK meant to be a curse-breaker, not a cure-all? Now apparently it heals you after falling off a beanstalk and gets stabbed. They really need to invest more research into this panacea. 

[Camera One]

Why did the dragon give up when they started climbing the beanstalk?  They would have been easy pickings.  

How would random people from Arendelle know how to use portals? 

Why would the sit at the table like that at the end.  I suppose it could have made sense if it were the wedding reception dinner, but some of those people should not be at the main table.  I'm going to assume it was because certain people REALLY didn't want to sit anywhere near Rumple when they found out he was joining them for dinner.  

[Mitch]

15 hours ago, CCTC said:

Also, Snow was also in the role of the classic female hostage when Gideon held her at sword point to get to Emma.  Emma herself was pretty passive in the whole two hours, Belle fell and twisted her ankle running in heels, and even Regina and Zelina and their magic  were ineffective.  The only reason they returned is because Gold killed his mother which broke the curse.

Wow, I hadn't thought about it, but a show that was really centered on powerful females..(Snow, Regina, Emma, etc) really did turn retro..."Let the man save the day" on its last episode. Emma was super passive even to the very end, Regina and Zelena sat around and fretted, the EQ's magic didn't seem to slow the curse down at all, Snow was pulled out at the last minute to give her annoying speech about hope again...(she is like a woman with a brain injury, who automatically spouts a speech out and everyone patiently listens as if they never heard it before...I know everyone LURVES the "bromance," between Hook and Charms, but it should have been husband and wife doing it together, one last adventure...) and it all ends with two mothers "dying"  For such a poweful being the thing that kills her is her stupid wand? If Rump knew that, and it was in his shop he could have controlled her long ago, and why would she let him have her wand??? I would not let D*ck Rump be the hero, it should have been that the BF had consumed so much power that even a supernatural creature couldn't handle it, she becomes like a god...and destroys herself with it.

Also, why does the BF dying destroy the curse but not the hold on whatshisface's heart?

[Rumsy4]

34 minutes ago, Mitch said:

 it should have been that the BF had consumed so much power that even a supernatural creature couldn't handle it, she becomes like a god...and destroys herself with it.

This solution actually would have worked out really well for OUAT (than it did in the Indiana Jones movie).

Quote

Also, why does the BF dying destroy the curse but not the hold on whatshisface's heart?

Your questions are pointless, etc..

Edited May 23, 2017 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Also, why does the BF dying destroy the curse but not the hold on whatshisface's heart?

Maybe Wish!Rumple lied and he protected it himself? I could imagine him popping up in Storybrooke, following everyone around. That would be funny. Then after the finale it's, "oh crap we have to get rid of sparkly Rumple".

Edited May 23, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Noneofyourbusiness]

6 hours ago, Mitch said:

Also, why does the BF dying destroy the curse but not the hold on whatshisface's heart?

I buy that the last command that was given via heart is still in effect until countermanded even if the person who gave it died, but not that the spell to prevent anyone else from tampering survived her death or that she can command Gideon in the shop without actually holding his heart in her hand. That's always been a prerequisite before.

[jhlipton]

On 5/22/2017 at 2:13 PM, tennisgurl said:

Yeah, that's why the whole Last Supper ending was so bizarre to me. Lost and BSG had tons of biblical references, and the nature of faith was a big part of both shows. This show awkwardly tiptoed around the Holy Grail in the Camelot arc without actually acknowledging anything remotely biblical, and the closest its gotten to being about the nature of faith was when Henry was screaming at random passers by in New York City about believing in magic, in one of the most embarrassing scenes in the history of the show. It just came off as really stupid and random, like it was something they saw other, better shows doing, and felt like they should do it too.

Even Legends of Tomorrow handled its biblical nonsense better.  The "Spear of Destiny" was the lance used to pierce Christ's side during the Crucifixion and washing it in Christ's blood would take away its power.  Horsefeathers, but at least consistent horsefeathers.

[legaleagle53]

On 5/23/2017 at 4:27 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I buy that the last command that was given via heart is still in effect until countermanded even if the person who gave it died, but not that the spell to prevent anyone else from tampering survived her death or that she can command Gideon in the shop without actually holding his heart in her hand. That's always been a prerequisite before.

What makes you think she hadn't already given him that command offscreen while holding his heart?

[Noneofyourbusiness]

20 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

What makes you think she hadn't already given him that command offscreen while holding his heart?

As I said, I'm referring to the commands in the shop that he responded to as she gave them. "Drop it" and "start looking for that wand, now".

[Rumsy4]

Maybe she had it hidden inside her evil cleavage. Okay--that was gross.

[rogvortex58]

On 23/05/2017 at 1:46 PM, Camera One said:

When the little girl offered to go out of the cave dwelling to fight the monster/invaders, they lost me.  There's Brave™ and there's completely unrealistic.

Maybe she has light magic like her grandma.

[hockeycat400]

So...I just watched the last two episodes.  I was away when they aired, and then when I got home the stupid on-demand had ep 22 up, but not ep 21.  And then when they were both available...well, I kept putting it off.  I think I was afraid that as soon as I watched them, OUAT would be over as I knew it.  And yep...now that I watched it, I am sad. 

Wasn't horrible.  The 6-season storyline was basically wrapped up, and they gave us a tiny glimpse of S7.   The last montage was actually a nice summary of (almost) everyone's happy endings.  I definitely needed some more Captain Swan, though.  I mean, come on...they just got married the day before!!  I wish they had been reunited earlier in the finale.  And if we're not getting that, or even a honeymoon, can't we at least get a kiss by the jukebox at Granny's?!  And especially knowing Jen won't back...that made the CS part very unsatisfying for me.  (God, I really really hope Jen changes her mind and guests on more than one episode.   If S7 is the last, she needs to appear in the last episode, too.)

I think I like the guy playing adult Henry (I haven't seen him in anything before).  Little Lucy seems kind of dippy, but that's pretty much what a lot of people thought about little Henry, so we'll see.

Edited May 29, 2017 by hockeycat400
6 seasons, not 6 episodes!

[Camera One]

If Henry hadn't been stupid enough to let The Black Fairy get a hold of the stuff he wrote when his eyes glazed over, what would have happened? 

[Shanna Marie]

I rewatched this one early because I didn't want to sully my weekend, and the Black Fairy's scheme still makes no sense to me.

Putting it in chronological order: Fiona finds out about a prophecy about newborn Rumple, that he's the Savior and he's destined to die in the Final Battle against an evil born the same winter that's marked with a crescent. She becomes obsessed with stopping this prophecy from happening (which implies that she believes a prophecy can be changed and isn't written in stone), to the point that she turns herself into a fairy so she can watch over her baby. She goes around looking for every baby born during that winter, but none are marked with the crescent. Still not willing to let it go, she creates the Dark Curse to send all babies away so they won't be able to kill her son. Tiger Lily tries to stop her, and when she uses magic to attack Tiger Lily, she turns into the Black Fairy, and she gets a scar -- then realizes that she's the evil prophesied to kill the Savior. She snips Rumple's destiny with the sheers somewhere along the way. She gets banished to the Dark Realm (was it dark before she got there, or did she make it that way?), but somehow can pop into other worlds long enough to steal babies and taunt her son, who uses babies to lure her (?). She's stealing babies to be slave labor for her dark fairy dust mines (never mind that it's years before babies are big enough to be of much use and are high-maintenance before they're of any use, so not the most effective source of slave labor). After a century or so (and goodness knows how many Saviors), she steals her son's baby, brings him up as a slave, then takes his heart to force him to go back to Storybrooke and kill the Savior in order to provide the power for her to break out of the Dark Realm and come to Storybrooke for good, so that she can fight this inevitable destined Final Battle with the Savior (that she became a fairy in order to stop). She flounces around town for a while and tries to turn the magic crystals dark before conning Rumple into pretending to defeat her, but then she immediately demands Emma's heart (revealing that she's actually still alive). She sets up a curse but also holds Emma's family and friends hostage to force her to hand over her heart. Emma frees them with the power of song, and the Black Fairy poofs away. Her curse is enacted, sending Emma's family to the Enchanted Forest and resetting Storybrooke to the way it was during Regina's curse, except with Emma in the psych ward for having believed any of this stuff really happened, and all the "worlds of story" start collapsing because of Emma's lack of belief -- and this is the real Final Battle, over Emma's belief. Except Emma still has to fight Gideon, since it turns out the Black Fairy herself wasn't actually the one prophesied to fight the sword fight part of the Final Battle. Or something.

So, it's prophesied, maybe it can be changed, except then it has to happen and the Black Fairy builds her life around making it happen, and what does this have to do with all the Realms collapsing, and why does she care about that? And I still don't understand why she's even bothering with any of this. Like, what is she hoping to accomplish, what will she get out of it? The villains on this show have had some weird (and weak) motivations, but "because there was a prophesy that said I would" has to be the worst.

And meanwhile, the writers do their usual trick of making it all play out in the least interesting way possible.

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

She gets banished to the Dark Realm (was it dark before she got there, or did she make it that way?)

I remember fan theories circulating that the Dark Realm was actually Neverland. That would've made too much sense since both realms had very similar rules and purposes. Rumple's parents both oppressed orphans in another realm where time moved differently. That's lazy writing.

There's really no reason to make Fiona and Malcolm so similar. Yeah, they're both Rumple's parents, but it didn't look like they were together for very long. They went their separate ways and were capable of turning out differently from each other. I'm not saying they couldn't both be evil, but they're more or less the same brand of evil. They had similar motivations and schemes. If you've already done Rumple's father, why not go in a different direction for Rumple's mother?

Edited September 6, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

48 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

If you've already done Rumple's father, why not go in a different direction for Rumple's mother?

Or maybe do something wild and crazy and not have her be Rumple's mother. Eliminate that and just make them rivals because he's the Dark One and she's the Black Fairy and neither of them likes having someone out there with equal amounts of dark power. You'd need a different back story for her, but the one they did makes no sense, and none of her actions make sense as Rumple's mother, while him trusting her enough to go in with her makes no sense, given what she did to him over the course of his life.

With the other villains, they've had somewhat understandable motives and goals that fit their actions. Regina's vendetta against Snow was way out of proportion, but in her head, it lined up -- she wanted revenge against Snow for ruining her life, so when all else failed, she cast the curse to take away Snow's happy ending. Cora wanted power because she'd been too powerless for most of her life, so she schemed for ways to get even more power. Just about everything Rumple did was to try to get what he wanted without having to give up his power. Pan wanted Henry's heart to keep Neverland alive so he could continue living in his own personal utopia. Zelena felt like she had been screwed over by the universe, so she wanted to go back in time and arrange things so that her mother kept her and she was the one who grew up as a princess. Ingrid felt rejected by the world, so she wanted to create her own little family of magical sisters. But with the Black Fairy, she wants to fight the Final Battle against the Savior because there was a prophecy? What is she going to get out of it? Even if it's a sunk cost fallacy issue, where she's given up too much because of that prophecy, so by golly she's going to make it happen and pay off, it's all vague enough that she has to state it for it to make sense. But they don't really give her any humanity or vulnerability where she confesses to that or when she mentions that she can't go on with this thing hanging over her head, so she wants to get it over with.

On another note, the flash-forwards don't really work with what we later learn is going on.

Spoiler

They give the place stamp as being "the Enchanted Forest," but Henry isn't in the Enchanted Forest. Do they ever even give that place a name? We were calling it the Disenchanted Forest, but I'm pretty sure they didn't call it the Enchanted Forest at all. It was a totally different place, even if a different version of Cinderella lived there. I wonder how much they knew of what they were doing with season 7 when they shot this -- probably just that it would be a grown-up Henry and his daughter would come to him, just like in the pilot.

These writers really need to learn the difference between repeating the same events over and over again and doing true callbacks or full-circle plotting. When you repeat something, it should be to show how things have changed. Like, a better ending might have been to have it be Emma's birthday, so we start the series with her having her birthday with a bad date (it was work, but if it had been a date, it would have been a bad one) and a lonely cupcake with a single candle, and we end her phase of the series with her having her birthday with a nice day with her husband followed by a party surrounded by all her friends and family.

[KingOfHearts]

28 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Eliminate that and just make them rivals because he's the Dark One and she's the Black Fairy and neither of them likes having someone out there with equal amounts of dark power.

What if Blue and Rumple both hated her? Not that they would work together, but that would be an interesting gray area.

I feel the same way about Zelena. When marketing pushed the whole "Wicked vs. Evil" thing, I would've rather had Regina and Zelena be rival witches instead of sisters. Zelena would have her Team Oz people, and Regina would have her Team EF people. 

[daxx]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

we end her phase of the series with her having her birthday with a nice day with her husband followed by a party surrounded by all her friends and family.

I’m very disappointed we didn’t get a happy Birthday for her and the cursed one in the wish realm totally doesn’t count.

Yet another wish I had for this show twisted and ruined.

[PixiePaws1]

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Or maybe do something wild and crazy and not have her be Rumple's mother. Eliminate that and just make them rivals because he's the Dark One and she's the Black Fairy and neither of them likes having someone out there with equal amounts of dark power. You'd need a different back story for her, but the one they did makes no sense, and none of her actions make sense as Rumple's mother, while him trusting her enough to go in with her makes no sense, given what she did to him over the course of his life.

With the other villains, they've had somewhat understandable motives and goals that fit their actions. Regina's vendetta against Snow was way out of proportion, but in her head, it lined up -- she wanted revenge against Snow for ruining her life, so when all else failed, she cast the curse to take away Snow's happy ending. Cora wanted power because she'd been too powerless for most of her life, so she schemed for ways to get even more power. Just about everything Rumple did was to try to get what he wanted without having to give up his power. Pan wanted Henry's heart to keep Neverland alive so he could continue living in his own personal utopia. Zelena felt like she had been screwed over by the universe, so she wanted to go back in time and arrange things so that her mother kept her and she was the one who grew up as a princess. Ingrid felt rejected by the world, so she wanted to create her own little family of magical sisters. But with the Black Fairy, she wants to fight the Final Battle against the Savior because there was a prophecy? What is she going to get out of it? Even if it's a sunk cost fallacy issue, where she's given up too much because of that prophecy, so by golly she's going to make it happen and pay off, it's all vague enough that she has to state it for it to make sense. But they don't really give her any humanity or vulnerability where she confesses to that or when she mentions that she can't go on with this thing hanging over her head, so she wants to get it over with.

On another note, the flash-forwards don't really work with what we later learn is going on.

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They give the place stamp as being "the Enchanted Forest," but Henry isn't in the Enchanted Forest. Do they ever even give that place a name? We were calling it the Disenchanted Forest, but I'm pretty sure they didn't call it the Enchanted Forest at all. It was a totally different place, even if a different version of Cinderella lived there. I wonder how much they knew of what they were doing with season 7 when they shot this -- probably just that it would be a grown-up Henry and his daughter would come to him, just like in the pilot.

These writers really need to learn the difference between repeating the same events over and over again and doing true callbacks or full-circle plotting. When you repeat something, it should be to show how things have changed. Like, a better ending might have been to have it be Emma's birthday, so we start the series with her having her birthday with a bad date (it was work, but if it had been a date, it would have been a bad one) and a lonely cupcake with a single candle, and we end her phase of the series with her having her birthday with a nice day with her husband followed by a party surrounded by all her friends and family.

No, no, no...that would mean it was about Emma and not Regina...A&E would stab themselves in the foot before allowing that...the idiots🤬🤬🤬

[Camera One]

"Enchanted Forest... a time of great upheaval".  I didn't find it intriguing then, and I still don't.

Spoiler

I seriously don't remember what the story was behind that "monster" Adult Henry was fighting.

The weird camera angles in the psychiatric hospital seemed so amateurish.  This scenario of Emma not believing is not even a "fun" alternate reality.  We've already seen Emma not believe and Henry desperately trying to convince her.  We saw that for an entire season.  Enough already.  

Quiz time.  Who says each of the following lines?  

Choices are: Hook, Snow, David, Regina, Zelena, Belle, Rumple, Blue

Quote

Character A :  Why? What is [The Black Fairy] doing?

Character B : (pauses suddenly in thought) It's the Final Battle.

Character C : The Final Battle? In a nuthouse?

Character B : Well, clearly, it wasn't what we thought it was.

Character C : Clearly.

Character D : Her soul. She's the Savior. Of course the Final Battle isn't a war. It's a battle for her soul.  For her belief.  Her hope.

Character A : I don't get it. What does she gain if Emma stops believing?

Character E : (walks in conveniently) I think I might know. 

Character A was the audience insert.  I don't get it either.

So all along, The Black Fairy just wanted to make Emma stop believing?  And if a Savior stops believing, all the worlds/realms of story literally end?  But not if the Savior's fate is cut away by the Shears, right?  

I'm sorry but I didn't feel inspired by Hook's monologue at the bean stalk at all.  

I pretty much had to stop watching at 24 minutes when Henry tried to get Emma to remember the wedding, she remembered some moments, but none of it helped.  Why would anyone want to re-live watching all the "heroes" fail or doing things that don't make any difference?

Edited September 7, 2019 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

51 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I seriously don't remember what the story was behind that "monster" Adult Henry was fighting.

Spoiler

I vaguely remember it being the Coat Hangers... really lame.

[Shanna Marie]

14 hours ago, Camera One said:

The weird camera angles in the psychiatric hospital seemed so amateurish.  This scenario of Emma not believing is not even a "fun" alternate reality.  We've already seen Emma not believe and Henry desperately trying to convince her.  We saw that for an entire season.  Enough already.  

And they couldn't seem to decide whether they were ripping off Terminator 2 or the Buffy episode in which the demon injection made her think she was in an asylum and all the monster-fighting stuff had been a hallucination, to the point where she wasn't sure which was real and which was the hallucination, the part where she's in an asylum or the part where she's interacting with her friends. They're mutually exclusive. The whole point of the bit in T2 was that Sarah Connor was right and those things really had happened to her, and she knew it, so keeping her locked up was the other people denying reality. The whole point of the Buffy episode was making the audience (and Buffy) question reality -- had all the things we'd seen really happened, or were they figments of a disturbed imagination? But with this, unlike in the Buffy episode, we knew that it was all a lie, a manipulation by the Black Fairy, but unlike Sarah Connor, Emma didn't know it was all real. She didn't go straight to, "Okay, this is happening, I'm out of here," when her son showed up. So we just spent a good chunk of the episode with Emma being passive, lacking all agency, not standing up for anything, and with no doubt whatsoever for the audience that she was in the wrong. That's not all that fun to watch, and it's a really dumb choice for a season finale that was essentially a series finale (since the next season was a reboot). But I guess it's typical for this series that Emma's last real episode involved her being totally passive and "winning" by not doing much of anything.

And for more fodder for my crackpot conspiracy theory that A&E didn't really want to do Captain Swan and were forced by the network, how many shows would have the big wedding episode for the main romance we saw develop over the course of the series, followed by a season/series finale in which that couple was immediately separated, one half of the couple mostly forgot that the relationship had ever existed, they barely spoke two lines to each other in the entire episode and had maybe two minutes of screen time (most of it silent montage) in which they actually interacted during the entire episode, everything the member of the couple who remembered did to try to help ended up being pointless, and there was a True Love's Kiss involving one member of the couple but not between the couple? Hook did get his speech about them having to fight for it rather than being destined, but he was there when the Charmings got together, and he saw how they weren't destined, that it took all his and Emma's effort to get them together after one little thing went wrong that could have kept them apart.

I know they were trying to parallel the season one TLK between Emma and Henry, but if we're bookending the series, the kiss should have been between Hook and Emma because it parallels the one that opened the series between the Charmings. It parallels the relationships because they managed to get back together after all the villains' efforts to separate them and shows that Emma, like her mother, is a real fairytale heroine. Or if they had to give the kiss to Henry, at least let Hook react to her "death." He just married her before being ripped away from her, then is barely reunited with her before she's apparently killed, but he just stands there while Henry pops down and gives her a perfunctory peck. The whole thing is so anticlimactic. Heck, at least put her in something akin to the glass coffin and give it a sense of occasion.

Really, "anticlimactic" is the best word to describe this episode.

[Camera One]

That opening scene alone was such a fail at being epic.  I don't know if that was supposed to parallel Charming in the pilot facing death to protect his child or Snowing sending their child away to safety.  

The cryptic dialogue was pretty annoying, as usual.

HENRY: You have IT, don't you?
LUCY: Of course.  IT never leaves my side.

What's the point when they immediately show they were talking about The Book?  What else?  The creepy clown for another mash-up?

And having Lucy a child utterly lines like:

HENRY: It may be the realm's only hope at defeating the Darkness.
LUCY: I will guard it with my life.
HENRY: It won't come to that.

Wow, what a brave and heroic child, LOL.  The whole sequence was laughable instead of suspenseful or exciting or intriguing or whatever it was trying to be.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

So here we are, the Final Battle...except not because we still have another freaking season to go but whatever. Lets all prepare for nonsensical boredom I MEAN MAGIC! 

Part 1: 

So of course Fiona's curse is just Regina's curse all over again, because A&E/Fiona are not particularly creative. I gotta say, even knowing that magic is real and Henry is right, hearing him do the same"you gotta believe!" speeches he did as a kid, but now as a teenager, its just really freaking embarrassing. For a finale episode, saying goodbye to many of our heroes, its shocking how dull this is. 

The idea of the Savior losing belief and that leading to the end of the story worlds is kinda interesting, and the fictional multiverse imploding is not a bad idea (its all very Neverending Story) but, putting aside the fact that the whole story world thing is one of the shows biggest, stupidest ret-cons, what about the first 20 some years of Emma's life where she didnt believe? Did they all get eaten by The Nothing and then come back, or did she have to get her Savior activation before it counted? Or is part of the curse? Also the whole battle for Emma's soul plan by Fiona is really hurt by the fact that Fiona and Emma dont really have much of a dynamic or a backstory between each other. She is basically Rumples villain, not Emma's, and it seems like even Fiona has no real idea why she is doing any of this other than "because the prophesy says so and I am hella evil" and thats hardly a battle of wills. 

Also, for the supposed epicness of the entire multiverse being eaten, there only seem to be about a dozen or so people that are actually around. So I guess the Frozen crew is all dead, because they sure arent around, and the population of Aladdin and Jasmines world is about five, counting them. Yeah yeah budget, but come on! 

Of course Regina is pointlessly a dick to Hook because she wants to flex her own magic. They cant just listen to his perfectly good idea like normal people, because that would mean Regina wasnt in charge I guess. Cant even just listen to the idea? At least it led to some good Hook and Charming bonding, which I can always get behind. Josh really comes alive with Colin, you can tell how much he enjoys the dynamic that Charming has with Hook, he finally gets to be a character and not just a fountain of hope speeches. 

Having seen season 7 

Spoiler

I have no idea what the fuck is going on in this opening. For one thing, its technically not the EF I dont think, its the EF multiverse or whatever. Why are they living in a shack in the woods? Who is Henry fighting? Why are they out there anyway? Is this part of the poorly defined resistance? Why are they being so vague beyond the "surprise" about who they are? This scene is already pretty confusing and stupid, but knowing what we actually know about season 7, I just have even more questions, and its even more obvious the writers had no clue what they wanted to do.

Edited September 7, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Camera One]

27 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

The whole point of the Buffy episode was making the audience (and Buffy) question reality -- had all the things we'd seen really happened, or were they figments of a disturbed imagination?

That was what was so clever about the Buffy episode.  It was referring to stuff that happened on the show, and twisting it so even the audience would wonder if it really happened.  Even "Charmed" did a better episode with this concept.  

Not to mention they sort of did Emma losing her memories back in the 3B premiere with Hook being the one to convince her, so it was also repetitive in that regard.

You'd think from the first 10 minutes in this hospital that Emma would stop taking Fiona's medication, gradually remember more and more, and then fight to come up with a plan to defeat Fiona in Storybrooke and rescue her family from the Enchanted Forest, maybe with the help of her reawakened friends in Storybrooke.  But nope.  Emma could have been off-screen for the entire episode and the outcome would have been pretty much the same.  Between Henry's carelessness and Emma's cluenessness, I don't see how viewers wouldn't be banging their head against the wall for much of the Storybrooke portions of this episode.

We saw very few supporting characters from Storybrooke.  In the Enchanted Forest portion, Snow White was pretty much MIA.  Considering A&E knew full well that this would be the final episode for many of the key protagonists, it was outright insulting.

Did they seriously think Mayor Fiona was going to be entertaining to watch?  We ended up wasting a whole lot of time watching this boring new character as this series finale (essentially) wasted away.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

Part 2:

So after all of this, Hook and Emma still dont get a TLK? Really?! I get they were all about the call backs this episode, but we already had Snow and Charming and the TLK reversal, and that worked pretty well, so why cant they let Hook and Emma have this big moment in their last scenes together? 

Speaking of anti climactic, thats mainly how I feel about this episode. There were some parts that I enjoyed, like the brief glimpses of various lands we have visited, but mostly it was just a big heaping pile of blah. Emma gets her memories back and it basically means nothing and she or Henry didnt even really do anything to get it back. The Black Fairy, the supposed big bad of the whole series, gets taken out with the wave of one wand easily, and Emma manages to defeat the darkness by kind of just standing around, and then everyone just goes about their business, which happily includes a dog, but less happily includes really pathetic and needless classical art shout outs. Seriously, I have no clue why they would end on a Last Supper image, other than because A&E thought it looked cool, and they saw Lost do it in a promo one time. 

I remember being super annoyed by the whole bit where the dwarfs give Regina a Queen sign on her mayor door and all bow to her, and how offensive that was to me. Oh, how little I knew...

So long Charming family. You deserved so much better, and I can only image what you could have done with writers who were actually competent.

Spoiler

Of course, while this might have left most of our main cast with a whimper instead of a bang, at least it didnt end with Regina taking over the multiverse in one of the most batshit what the fuck endings ever to be seen as a happy endings in TV history. The brief flashes of the multiverse being ok again was good enough, bringing them all together is absolute nonsense, and Regina being crowed Queen of the Universe is just...I am still waiting for that recount! The whole show ends with A&Es jerk off fantasy of everyone in existence bowing to Regina, and that makes a few dwarfs bowing seem quaint. 

[Camera One]

I was thinking about this episode this morning, and I think I know what I would personally have preferred to see...

I didn't think too many about the flashforward scenes.  Maybe it would have been better for Season 7 if we had seen just quieter scenes with Henry and Lucy so we would actually buy their connection as father and daughter and we would actually care when they get separated at the end.  Maybe Henry is taking Lucy to see some of the iconic sites we have visited during this series... his grandparent's castle, his grandfather's old farm, Spikington palace, the house where Baelfire/Neal grew up (which is a place Henry visits for the first time), etc.  This could also serve as call-backs.  We don't know what happened to Lucy's mother and that could be one of the "mysteries" teasing Season 7.  We find out Henry knows a Curse is looming and he is actually trying to give Lucy more memories of the past, so she will save them from the Curse (and Henry sadly realizes he will be separated from his daughter).

Meanwhile, in Storybrooke, we see it Cursed.  Mary Margaret is still a teacher, Archie is still a therapist, Marco is still a repairman, Granny runs a diner, etc.  Regina is still Mayor but there is an election coming up and she is challenged by a new candidate, slimy politician Fiona who wants to become Mayor (Fiona doesn't have magic, which frustrates her). 

There are also subtle differences.  Henry doesn't remember and is a regular teenager who rebels against Regina but is drawn to Emma.  Emma is the Sheriff.  Hook is the Sheriff assistant, shy and lacking in confidence, with a crush on Emma who doesn't return the same feelings.  Rumple also doesn't have his memories.  David is a patient at the hospital but not married.  Zelena is Regina's put-upon assistant.  

We see a day where no one except Fiona has their memories, and we see Emma interacting with Killian, Emma also interacts with Mary Margaret and David, and Henry, in her capacity as Sheriff.  Mayor Regina is panicking for the first time worried she won't get re-elected.  Characters can make ironic comments to one another.

We find out Fiona's plans, which is to permanently destroy everyone's memories and this is "The Final Battle" (it's lame, but whatever, since I don't care about The Final Battle).  Fiona needs to  set up Gideon to stab Emma (maybe she also needs to find The Book and burn it, if more plot is needed).  Fiona also plans to turn Rumple back into a baby and create a world where they can live happily ever after.  In order to do all this, Fiona needs the figurative Keys of the Mayor, which can only be hers if she defeats Regina as the leader of the town... maybe this was because  Regina's version of the Curse had corrupted her original conception of it, which also makes Fiona angry (on top of not being able to use magic).

Emma receives a cryptic note at the police station to visit the rooftop where the wedding happened.  She finds a tape recorder there and plays it and hears her "song" sung as a child.  That prompts the Happy Beginnings song to come flooding back, and Emma remembers around the half-hour mark.

Then, in the remainder of the next hour, Emma slowly gets others to remember.  Maybe she needs to find objects that trigger music (for more call-backs from the show).  Maybe she gets more cryptic notes.  As a reminder of Season 1's core relationship, Emma first gets Mary Margaret to remember, and we get some time with just mother and daughter working together with multiple scenes that last more than 59 second. 

Eventually, more people remember, and they form an underground movement against Fiona to block her from becoming Mayor.  We find out the cryptic notes were from Blue, who was awake the whole time, and actually has access to some magic.  It was Blue who corrupted Fiona's Curse.  Fiona has no idea people are remembering, but she is busy creating a situation where Gideon will want to stab Emma... he had been arrested by Sheriff Emma and is out for revenge to the chagrin of his peace-loving parents Rumple and Belle.

So The Final Battle is actually Emma fighting with the help of all her family and friends.  Rumple eventually wakes up and joins to stop his mother from de-aging him and corrupting his son.  Blue puts a Sleeping Curse spell on Gideon's sword knowing that they need to let that "prophesy" play out, but Emma is confident that Hook will TLK her back, and that could be the big climatic moment. 

The "heroes" pretend they think Emma is truly dead and put her in a glass coffin (as suggested above).  After the TLK and the defeat of The Black Fairy, Emma releases the song in her heart for future generations, and as the spell disperses, they all sing a reprise of "Happy Beginnings" continuing their wedding banquet in the middle of Main Street where the entire town is invited.  No long-table Last Supper.  

Edited September 7, 2019 by Camera One