S03.E15: Civil Hands Unclean

[Artsda]

Quote

Angelo's relationship with Cookie turns toxic and leaves her questioning her decisions. Hakeem makes a public plea for Lucious to give him paternity of Bella during his return to Empire Xstream. Meanwhile, Cookie becomes increasingly more suspicious of Lucious' intentions with Giuliana and Empire's future in Vegas, and Lucious and Jamal work overtime to finish their albums.
 

Loved the song by Lucious & Jamal, liked them coming together.

All season long and last season Cookie was not wanting Lucious. Now she does? Don't blame him for not jumping at her suddenly being single.

While the Dubois are the easy guess for CPS being called. I think it is possibly someone else.

[Dee]

Empire is firing on all cylinders. It's awesome.

[Athena5217]

This was the grossest episode of Empire ever because the idea of Cookie wanting to get back together with Lucious just turns my stomach. He is toxic, and she knows that--not in an irresistible bad boy way, but in a let you rot in prison for years while he gets rich way. I would rather see Cookie end up with Anika than with Lucious. The Hakeem, Tiana, and Tory relationship was also icky. Why does Hakeem think everyone wants to watch him provide commentary on a nature documentary? You are not Morgan Freeman, Hakeem.

Only slignly less frightening than Hakeem in a threesome was Hakeem thinking a baby lion is called a pup. Maybe Lucious dropped him on his head a few times when he was a Lyon cub.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Athena5217

[Dee]

Calling it now: Andre is behind Bella being snatched.

[MyAimIsTrue]

I loved Cookie's throw away line that Mrs. Dubois was no Claire Huxtable!!

[sereion]

1 hour ago, Dee said:

Calling it now: Andre is behind Bella being snatched.

Yep! He's becoming his father's son!

[TobinAlbers]

58 minutes ago, Dee said:

Calling it now: Andre is behind Bella being snatched.

That would actually be a well played and apt revenge dished by Andre. I'd applaud him for not showing his hand and finally avenging Rhonda. Only problem is Cookie has sworn to protect Bella so if Andre did it and it's revealed I can see Cookie turning on him and never forgiving him despite his mental illness and the loss of his wife and child. Not that she and Lucious have done much in the way of trying to understand him, help him, be there for him or really parent him. He's such the forgotten unfavored Lyon.  Not that he hasn't pulled some crap but unlike Jamal and Hakeem who get their ish excused, they're often pulled closer to Cookie and Lucious breast with strong emotional ties through the 'love of the music' while Andre is at a distance from both of them even though he's the oldest and spent the most time as a child with them both to the point you'd think he'd have a tighter bond and yet...no. For Lucius it's like once Andre's mental illness became apparent he was damaged goods. With Cookie it's like she feels he doesn't need her as much as Jamal or Hakeem and her guilt over leaving Hakeem when he was a baby plays into it as well. Although I do agree Andre also has played into putting that distance between them, but while Cookie will make attempts to bridge the gulf with Hakeem, she just doesn't put in that same effort with Andre.

Angelo's mamma needs to worry less about burying the Lyons and more about making sure baby boy Angelo doesn't do prison time for the crap he did during his campaign. Taye really is playing Angelo as not as tough and independent from Ma Huxtable as one would like. Dude said nothing as his mom tried to have Cookie escorted away and then let himself be buffetted away as mom gave her last dig. I actually was sad that Cookie was taking his crap and trying to bend over backwards to make amends while he continued to be so whiney. 

[Margohill]

OMG!!! Where do I begin? 

2 hours ago, Dee said:

Empire is firing on all cylinders. It's awesome.

I totally agree and I hope the ratings are better than last week because things are really getting hot and very, very unpredictable. Great episode. 

CIVIL HANDS UNCLEAN indeed. Was this title based on Angelo's hands, because he took bribe to back off from the Lyons. His hands are dirty now and he is so stupid to have taken that money because I bet you, Lucious can use that against him in the future. Angelo is a spoiled brat and is throwing an huge man-child tantrum because he got dumped by a girl. This is ridiculous trying to ruin Lyon family business in every way. Thanks to Jamal, things were settled calmly. It was just belittling of Angelo how his mother came and took him away from Cookie when she was trying to reason things out with him. I was so proud of Cookie because she acted like the adult. Angelo is a child.

Lucious and his women. He is just playing Guiliana to get his money back so Cookie need not worry.

The whole Hakeem live-stream thing about his baby was lost on me and the Tiana/Tori/Hakeem bath-tub shenanigan was off-putting.

"I want for the Lyon family to work together"....Jamal Lyon. Thank God someone finally has some sense. About time this family came together as a family to do great work together without all the fighting.

2 hours ago, MyAimIsTrue said:

I loved Cookie's throw away line that Mrs. Dubois was no Claire Huxtable!!

I also loved her line about Michelle Obama. However I do believe in some cases, "when they go low, beat them down hard"....LOL!!!

Andre has to realize who his parent are. I love it when Cookie infiltrated his gang and invited them over for dinner. That was awesome. Andre was totally dis-empowered.  Cookie walked in and took control and like I always said, she is out to protect her family and I hope Andre is taking his meds. If he goes against his family, he will have the wrath of his mother to contend with. 

The Lyon family dinner was so great it reminded me of S1. So wonderful to see the family together again even if it doesn't last for long. Something bad just has to happen.

OMG! baby Bella. Why do I feel Andre has something to do with this? That was wrong on all levels and whoever is involved is finished. 

What an episode. Empire writers did an excellent job. Boy! I didn't see some of those major twists.  Can't wait for next week now. Looks like the Dubois will be in some very hot water with the Lyons.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Margohill

[thuganomics85]

Totally think the Dubois are not going to be responsible for Bella getting taken away.  At the very least, Angelo will be in the dark, and it was Diana, but I even doubt she will go that low, despite her cold as ice threat to Cookie.  Andre being behind it didn't even occur to me, but I can totally see that now.  You can not underestimate what he would do, especially after he took a hit like he did last week.

So, when Hakeem isn't have threesomes in the tub with Tiana and Tori (sometimes I think he might have actually made a deal with the devil instead of Lucious), he uses his time to do podcasts about how actual lions and how much he loves Bella, and that is what makes Lucious decide he is ready to be a real father and even has his name on her birth certificate.  Hey, whatever works!

Thirsty being invited the the Lyons family dinners now amuses me.  I guess he is almost family now, especially to Lucious.  Grandma Leah praising/thanking Jesus when Lucious gave Anika the divorces papers was the highlight of the episode.

Jamal and Lucious' song was pretty great, but it being Lucious, I still have concerns over Jamal agreeing to the collaboration.  You can only trust him for so long.

So, what's the over/under, before Cookie and Giuliana come to blows?

This season has been a blast.

[Dee]

11 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

That would actually be a well played and apt revenge dished by Andre. I'd applaud him for not showing his hand and finally avenging Rhonda. Only problem is Cookie has sworn to protect Bella so if Andre did it and it's revealed I can see Cookie turning on him and never forgiving him despite his mental illness and the loss of his wife and child. Not that she and Lucious have done much in the way of trying to understand him, help him, be there for him or really parent him. He's such the forgotten unfavored Lyon.  Not that he hasn't pulled some crap but unlike Jamal and Hakeem who get their ish excused, they're often pulled closer to Cookie and Lucious breast with strong emotional ties through the 'love of the music' while Andre is at a distance from both of them even though he's the oldest and spent the most time as a child with them both to the point you'd think he'd have a tighter bond and yet...no. For Lucius it's like once Andre's mental illness became apparent he was damaged goods. With Cookie it's like she feels he doesn't need her as much as Jamal or Hakeem and her guilt over leaving Hakeem when he was a baby plays into it as well. Although I do agree Andre also has played into putting that distance between them, but while Cookie will make attempts to bridge the gulf with Hakeem, she just doesn't put in that same effort with Andre.

I don't think Andre's the forgotten Lyon. He's more the sleeping giant. He's the linchpin of the family, more by circumstance than choice, and it weighs on him. As Cookie told him earlier in the season, there were no summits for him the way there are for the WOKE kids or a fortune as a cushion from generational poverty the way it was for Jamal and Hakeem.

Andre fought his way out of the hood into some of the highest academic institutions in the US, and instead of crossing over to the mainstream and staying there, he returned and helped build his fathers dream into a reality. The problem is, that as the family linchpin, Andre (especially with Uncle Vernon long gone) is a man without a country.

I don't think that Lucious sees Andre as damaged goods. I do think he's extremely wary of Andre not being able to handle the stress, mentally and/or emotionally, of running a company the magnitude of Empire for several reasons.

One: as brilliant as Dre is, he's never been consistent about taking responsibility for his mental health. He let Rhonda do the legwork. in that regard. during their co-dependent marriage, as they plotted and schemed for their own gain, and recently he's been vacillated between leaning on Jamal (who placated him) and Nessa (who refused) as his emotional gatekeepers. Two: Lucious feels that an artist would be better suited to run the company because an artist would continue to prioritize Empire's trademark, music. For instance, back in Season 1, when Andre & Anika were planning the investors showcase, Andre suggested leading with the profitability of Empire's other various business ventures instead of foregrounding the music, to which an ill Lucious vociferously objected. Andre understands the music, but lacks a passion for it, which is a huge no no in the Lyon Family. And Three: Andre is a constant reminder of Lucious traumatic childhood & the pain he felt at the hand of the individual Lucious adored more than any one (Leah). Having mental illness is certainly not Andre, or Leah's, fault but there will always be a part of Lucious psyche that will forever conflate their illness with personal betrayal.

Cookie is a bit different. Though she doesn't have Lucious deep seated issues with mental illness, it's still new terrain for her. Ever since her release, she's worked at becoming better informed about Andre's condition, and focused on modifying her behavior to be more cognizant about, and respectful of, his situation; but the barrier between she and Andre remains. Largely because Andre is embarrassed and ashamed of her in an ugly & deeply sexist manner that he has never been with Lucious. He doesn't view his father as a thug, despite being fully aware of his father's less than savory business practices; but he hates Cookie for almost the same reason Lucious has trouble fully reconciling with Leah; because they were abandoned by their mothers by choice rather than circumstance. Also since Andre became self sufficient due to his fighting his way out of the hood, and is married by the time Cookie is released from prison, he doesn't regard her as his Mother but as a business associate he can/could occasionally weaponize for his own personal gain. There are rare occasions where he allows himself to be vulnerable around her, but they're largely for self serving reasons. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Dee

[SimoneS]

I thought that was the worse episode of the season, even Cookie didn't look good. Yes, Andre took Bella. I don't buy that he is gone dark. I just think that he isn't taking his  medicine.

Everything I hated:

Cookie wanting Lucious back

Cookie playing peacemaker with Andre and Lucious. Her son with a history of mental illness is planning to kill his father and it never occurs to her to check if he is on his meds.

Jamal playing peacemaker. I don't like his change in his personality to fit this season.

Jamal doing a duet with Lucious instead of making his own music with Derek.

Everything with Hakeem.

If Thirsty was at the Lyons dinner, Becky should have been there.

Edited May 4, 2017 by SimoneS

[Landlord]

10 hours ago, Artsda said:

Loved the song by Lucious & Jamal, liked them coming together.

All season long and last season Cookie was not wanting Lucious. Now she does? Don't blame him for not jumping at her suddenly being single.

While the Dubois are the easy guess for CPS being called. I think it is possibly someone else.

Could be Tariq? All pissed off of having been outplayed by Lucious and Anika.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Still trying to wrap my head around CPS showing up with a SWAT team to take the baby. That was barely legal kidnapping. Whoever's behind it better hope Bella doesn't end up in foster care. The Lyons would burn that city down.

[Vixenstud]

14 hours ago, Artsda said:

While the Dubois are the easy guess for CPS being called. I think it is possibly someone else.

And I'ma predict right now that it will be Guliana.

Not into younger men but gotdamn Hakeem looked delicious in those boxer shorts!  I was still fanning my 52 year old ass past bedtime.

[wanderingstar]

Anika: Divorce papers?

Leah: Thank you, Jesus!

Oh, Mama Walker - don't ever change.

The family brunch was EVERY. THING. There was warmth and laughter and yes drama. Poor Bella. Poor Anika.

I loved Lucious chiding Thirsty to stop flirting with Mama Walker.

I loved Hakeem's smile when he got Bella's birth certificate from Lucious.

I loved Andre and Cookie clinking wine glasses over their Vegas plans.

Phylicia Rashad can play the hell out of seething viciousness. Who knew?

Cookie greeting her old friends at Shine's laundromat was too funny. Andre looked peeved.

Next week looks a mess - and I mean that in the best possible way.

 

ETA: 

Quote

While the Dubois are the easy guess for CPS being called. I think it is possibly someone else.

Could it be Tariq? 

Edited May 5, 2017 by Gillian Rosh

[Athena5217]

16 hours ago, SimoneS said:

If Thirsty was at the Lyons dinner, Becky should have been there.

No, Becky needs to keep some distance between herself and thevLyons because people that get too close to that family up dead, in jail, or having their lives ruined publicly.

We've already lost Rhonda and Freda, and I can't remember the last time w saw Porscha. I don't want to lose another great female supporting character to the Lyons dysfunction.

[Dee]

Freda is still in the Lyon fold, albeit lately with Shyne & Andre; however for someone with her rap sheet, that's still fairly significant.

[Rae Spellman]

44 minutes ago, iheartET said:

1) Snoop to Luscious: “And then that thing that happened in 1996.”   What thing is he making reference to?

Tupac was shot in in Las Vegas, on September  7, 1996. 

[Margohill]

22 hours ago, journalism16 said:

But I want to make a few points. In regard to the title "Civil Hands Unclean," it is from William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. You will remember that Romeo and Juliet were star crossed lovers who took their lives because of their families' fighting. The Capulets and Montagues did not want their children to be together, and because of this Romeo and Juliet took their own lives; because if they could not be together on earth, than they would ultimately be together in death. After their deaths, we can assume that the fighting ended. 

So if we think about it, the Lyon family are the Capulets and the Dubois family are the Montagues. Now, I am not saying someone will get killed right away, but we can assume that it will happen this way, because it always does; but the only difference is, the star crossed lovers are Cookie and Lucious, not Cookie and Angelo. 

Thanks Journalism for the excellent explanation of the Title. It was quite interesting to read. Never realized it was from one of Shakespeare's stories but then again I read somewhere that the whole idea of this show and the Lyon family was from Shakespeare's King Lear. 

22 hours ago, journalism16 said:

Andre is taking on the role of a King Lear, and right now, concerning the storyline, it also reminds me of the "Taming of the Shrew," because Andre is so aggressive about wanting to kill his father, and his mother is trying to calm him down from trying to kill his father, but I think she has a feeling that it may not be working. And I am wondering whether Andre had a hand in what happened to Bella, but right now, I have no idea.

Hmmm, about that. I'll discuss this below.

21 hours ago, Dee said:

I don't think Andre's the forgotten Lyon. He's more the sleeping giant. He's the linchpin of the family, more by circumstance than choice, and it weighs on him.

Hmmm, I wonder why.

21 hours ago, Dee said:

I don't think that Lucious sees Andre as damaged goods. I do think he's extremely wary of Andre not being able to handle the stress, mentally and/or emotionally, of running a company the magnitude of Empire for several reasons.

One: as brilliant as Dre is, he's never been consistent about taking responsibility for his mental health. He let Rhonda do the legwork. in that regard. during their co-dependent marriage, as they plotted and schemed for their own gain, and recently he's been vacillated between leaning on Jamal (who placated him) and Nessa (who refused) as his emotional gatekeepers

Here is my own personal take about the Andre character and it is basically how I have viewed his story arc and how I have come to perceive his character.

I do feel sorry for Andre because he is the one Lyon who has not been close to any of his parents IMO. I think Andre has been ignored by his parents in every which way which I think has been awful on the parts of both parents. In S1, Andre was admitted to a care center for psychiatric care after his psychotic episode in his father's office. Lucious NEVER visited him there and Cookie found it difficult to talk to him when she visited. Now with Jamal in a rehab facility, Lucious, Cookie, Hakeem and Andre all came there to support him as a family. Where was the family when Andre was in a facility? Lucious chose to give Jamal the company, he dotes over Hakeem's baby but ignores the fact that Anika killed Andre's baby. In-fact the family never bothered to even give Andre's wife a funeral, never bothered to seek revenge on who killed his baby.

Cookie never cared much for him when he was mourning his dead wife and baby. In-fact it was Jamal who helped him through the initial difficult stages after his loss. Where was Cookie and Lucious when he needed them? I just think this was a missed opportunity for the writers to showcase Cookie as a terrific mom (as she was with Jamal in S1) by being there every moment for Andre emotionally, making sure he is OK and taking his meds correctly and eating well. I honestly thought the writers were going to have Cookie investigate who killed her grand-baby and seek revenge. Another missed opportunity if you ask me. Andre was lost when his wife died and needed some serious emotional support. Cookie gave Jamal so much emotional support when she got out of prison. I was just surprised she wasn't there as much for Andre when that moment arrived. Why has Andre been treated so badly by the Lyons, WHY??? He sat there on the table and watched as Lucious gave Hakeem Bella's birth certificate praising him and all what not and at the same time, gifting the killer of his baby aka. Anika her freedom with lots of millions of dollars as payoff. I was terribly heartbroken for Andre at that moment. He just seemed emotionally detached and just off. Lucious has only needed Andre to take care of the financial aspects of the business but couldn't care less about poor Andre's illness or his emotional state after the loss of his wife and baby IMO.

My whole point is, if Andre is in anyway involved in baby snatching, I will not be surprised and I will not judge him harshly either. It would be wrong but I can totally see how someone like him could have been pushed to the point of resorting to something as evil as that. I just feel bad that poor baby Bella is being used as a pawn in some malicious vengeful act and by whom, it still remains to be seen. 

 JMHO. Poor Andre

  

Edited May 5, 2017 by Margohill

[Dee]

When Andre was put on a psychiatric hold back in Season One, Cookie attended his group therapy session and made every effort to get him to talk only to break down in tears because he ignored her, and both his brothers, all of whom had showed up for him, unlike Lucious. So it's not as if the non-Lucious members of the Lyon family have been lacking in their support for Andre. 

And to Lucious credit despite skipping out on Andre's group therapy session in Season One, he makes a concerted effort to attend Andre's baptism (despite the event triggering extremely painful flashbacks and his own self professed atheism) in Season Two. So while Lucious is probably the furthest thing from perfect, he has proven capable of showing up for, and supporting, all the members of his family; Andre included.

It's true that Rhonda is never given an onscreen funeral, but that doesn't mean she didn't have one. And given the fact that Rhonda made wild accusations toward Anika she could neither prove & that Andre refused to corroborate, prior to her death, it's a little difficult to feel bad that the Lyons didn't make a bigger effort to "seek revenge" on an anonymous killer. It's even more difficult to feel too badly for Rhonda when she spent the majority of her time constantly trying to destroy Andre's family for her own gain and killed Uncle Vernon to boot. So it's not as if Rhonda was some innocent victim the evil Lyons mistreated, she was just as corrupt and self serving as the rest of her in-laws; she just happened to get outplayed by Anika, who was way more driven and determined to ingratiate herself as a power player within the Lyon family inner circle.

Cookie & Lucious were working when Andre was grieving. Empire had just spent a fortune to buy a streaming service that needed an endless amount of fresh content & the rest of the family had to make sure it turned a profit to keep Empire's investors happy, while also dealing with Empire's normal day to day issues (temperamental artists, serious tech breaches, uneasy board members and constant fed interference). Couple all of that with Jamal still recovering from being shot, Nana Leah's recent reappearance, Bella's birth, Anika reestablishing herself as a force and Hakeem reeling from his wedding from hell and it becomes quite easy to see that Lucious & Cookie were simply inundated with work instead of them arbitrarily choosing to abandon one of their grown children.

Cookie couldn't force Andre to take his meds. No one could. It took Jamal begging Andre (literally) to let him control Andre's meds for Andre to finally concede even to the slightest bit of help. From the very beginning of the series Andre constantly kept his family at arm's length, prioritizing his marriage to Rhonda over the rest of the family yet every time he's needed the family this season, they've showed up for him. And every time they support him, he acts genuinely surprised, as if he can't comprehend that they're willing to be there for him which says more about Andre's state of mind, and how he views the rest of his family than vice versa.

Also when Andre desperately needed Cookie as he was grieving, she did make time for him. She told him he should be proud of everything he accomplished (without any assistance), that she was proud of him, that he was a survivor just like her, and reassured him that everything would eventually be alright.

It's also not really fair to compare Cookie and Jamal's relationship to Cookie and Andre's. Jamal regularly visited Cookie who had made a promise to him that she would protect him to the best of her abilities because she was aware he was different even if he didn't understand that yet.

Whereas Andre never visited his Mother while she was in prison, and only interacted with her as a means to an end once she got released. And despite Cookie knowing Andre was using her, she held him in extremely high regard, forgave him for never coming to visit her and had no problem repeatedly working with him to achieve his goals even though he threw her under the bus in the end.

Is Lucious a terrible Dad to Andre? Yes. But a LOT of that stems from his own unresolved trauma, than anything to do with Andre. Which is not to excuse Lucious actions, but acknowledge that they're understandable. Cookie has gone above & beyond as a parent to Andre, especially considering he's an adult who has some really ugly deep seated issues about her that he refuses to address.

Until Andre reconciles his issues he's gonna be stuck just like Jamal. Ironically enough, as much as Andre & Jamal tease Hakeem for being immature, it's Hakeem who has grown exponentially over the past few years, while they have both regressed.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Dee

[Mrs OldManBalls]

Hakeem's penthouse: So, he has a pool table and marble tub in his living room??? 

[darkestboy]

I really liked this one. The family dinner was so sweet and then everything had to go to pot when Bella was taken away. I even felt sorry for Anika and I really don't want to feel too bad for her.

Lucious granting her a divorce and having Hakeem's names on the birth cert were nice things for him to do. Did I mention I really liked the family meal?

I do think it's going to be Andre responsible for this and not Angelo and his mother though.

Cookie now wants to get back with Lucious? She'd be better off leaving him with Giuliana, 8/10

[Margohill]

11 hours ago, Dee said:

And to Lucious credit despite skipping out on Andre's group therapy session in Season One, he makes a concerted effort to attend Andre's baptism (despite the event triggering extremely painful flashbacks and his own self professed atheism) in Season Two.

Well yes, but you seem to overlook all the other times in S2 when Lucious simply just insulted the boy because of his illness. In jail when Andre went to visit Lucious all Lucious did was put him down. At another instance Lucious told him how he was ashamed of him because of his illness plus all the other times Lucious shot down Andre's ideas only to turn around and use them again to his advantage. That was all in S2. Being there for his baptism does not make up for all the psychological torture Lucious was putting him through. It wasn't Andre's fault he was born with that illness and I wish Lucious would just be sympathetic about that IMO.

11 hours ago, Dee said:

t's true that Rhonda is never given an onscreen funeral, but that doesn't mean she didn't have one. And given the fact that Rhonda made wild accusations toward Anika she could neither prove & that Andre refused to corroborate, prior to her death, it's a little difficult to feel bad that the Lyons didn't make a bigger effort to "seek revenge" on an anonymous killer. It's even more difficult to feel too badly for Rhonda when she spent the majority of her time constantly trying to destroy Andre's family for her own gain and killed Uncle Vernon to boot.

 IMO, Rhonda and Andre were scheming because they realized that Lucious didn't favor Andre and didn't want to hand over the company to him. Everyone schemes at Empire and don't forget all scheming Andre had to do on Empire's behalf as well. Rhonda's killing Uncle Vernon was an ACCIDENT. We all know that. Andre ended up confessing that to Lucious which Lucious praised Andre for and thought it was a great thing they did for getting rid of the FBI informant. He was afraid Vernon was going to snitch to the FBI about Bunkie's killing.  Infact, that's when Lucious really got close to Andre and starting entrusting him with Empire stuff. He ended up buying them a huge mansion when Rhonda got pregnant. So there's that.

Lucious KNEW that Anika pushed Rhonda down the stairs and so far has done nothing about it. It's not as if no-one knew who the baby-killer is. Lucious knows and he still chooses to sleep with Anika. He bought them a huge mansion in excitement because of that baby. It's just that there is a disconnect here in Lucious's behavior while Rhonda was expecting, and after that baby was killed. This whole Anika pushing Rhonda down the stairs and causing her to lose her baby, is a huge stigma and stain that will always stay on Anika. JMHO

11 hours ago, Dee said:

Cookie couldn't force Andre to take his meds. No one could. It took Jamal begging Andre (literally) to let him control Andre's meds for Andre to finally concede even to the slightest bit of help. 

She didn't have to. All I would have liked to see was for her to have just been there more often to provide a shoulder for him to cry on and encourage him to take his meds and learn to live life without Rhonda. I just felt like Jamal was doing Cookie's job. Talking about Andre being distant from his mother, if I were a writer in the Empire's writer's room, I could have suggested to use this moment as a time to bring Andre closer to his mother and heal that broken bond. He was alone and vulnerable with no one to turn to at a time of grief. His mother would have been that person for him to depend on, rely on and break that ice between them. I'm sure Cookie would have appreciated that. JMHO

11 hours ago, Dee said:

It's also not really fair to compare Cookie and Jamal's relationship to Cookie and Andre's. Jamal regularly visited Cookie who had made a promise to him that she would protect him to the best of her abilities because she was aware he was different even if he didn't understand that yet.

I'm not comparing these 2 relationships. Far from it. Jamal's special bond with his mother had been created from childhood and Jamal knew it. I believe Jamal knew that he could only get that 'special acceptance' from his mother that's why he never wanted to miss any opportunity to visit his mother in prison. His mother understood him and accepted him, unlike his father. We all saw what a mess Jamal was when Cookie came out of prison. He had been rejected by his father, put down in every which way, his musical career stunted and shoved in the back-burner by Lucious, while Hakeem was getting all the spotlight, support and praise from his father. Cookie literally had to rebuild Jamal's self-esteem, musical talent and everything else. I just wanted to see her uplift Andre in the same way especially as his father had put him down so much because of his illness. JMHO

11 hours ago, Dee said:

s Lucious a terrible Dad to Andre? Yes.

Lucious has been a disappointment as a father TBH. Not even using his bad experience with his mother can excuse that as far as I am concerned. JMHO

11 hours ago, Dee said:

Ironically enough, as much as Andre & Jamal tease Hakeem for being immature, it's Hakeem who has grown exponentially over the past few years, while they have both regressed.

I think might just have to disagree on that one because I don't see Hakeem as having matured at all. He is just the same old spoiled, irresponsible brat that he was when the show started. Just because he made a podcast about baby Bella and being a good father doesn't make him a good father. Lucious has been raising his daughter all this time. Just recently, he was involved in that brawl at their club where the girl was suing Empire for loads of money. Andre and Thirsty had to come in and try to clean up his mess. Cookie literally dragged him by the ears to go explain to his father and what has Lucious done again? Given him back his Live stream on Empire Xtreme. SMH

It will be interesting to see what unfolds by the end of the season.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Margohill

[Dee]

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Well yes, but you seem to overlook all the other times in S2 when Lucious simply just insulted the boy because of his illness. In jail when Andre went to visit Lucious all Lucious did was put him down. At another instance Lucious told him how he was ashamed of him because of his illness plus all the other times Lucious shot down Andre's ideas only to turn around and use them again to his advantage. That was all in S2. Being there for his baptism does not make up for all the psychological torture Lucious was putting him through. It wasn't Andre's fault he was born with that illness and I wish Lucious would just be sympathetic about that IMO.

Lucious didn't insult Andre because of his illness in Season 2. Lucious told Andre he wouldn't forgive him because Andre betrayed him. Out of all of Lucious sons Andre had the highest, and arguably the most important role in the company, and he stabbed Lucious in the back because he was jealous Lucious had passed him over for Jamal.

When Andre visited Lucious in prison, to beg for forgiveness, Lucious did NOT put his son down. He told Andre he refused to forgive him then simply walked away (after being emotionally triggered). Lucious does tell Andre he's ashamed & embarrassed of his mental illness at Cookie's birthday dinner, which is horrible and is also worsened by Lucious projecting onto Andre his lingering issues surrounding his own childhood trauma.

Lucious does however mock Andre's newfound faith, but seeing as Andre never takes his faith seriously, beyond using it as a convenient crutch to excuse his actions, it seems pretty difficult not to side with Lucious in that regard. If Andre wanted to invest in (as Lucious saw it) meaningless symbolism, that's his right, but as Lucious told him baptism doesn't change the past and that people have to live with the choices they make, for better or worse. And even after expressing all of his misgivings to his oldest son, Lucious still shows up to support him.

It's telling though, that for all of Lucious professed shame & embarrassment about Andre's condition that, prior to Andre's most recent hospitalization, he never once penalized his son for his illness. Lucious had absolutely no problem with his son being a top level executive in his company and his right hand man. It's when Andre sacrificed loyalty for ambition that Lucious had a problem.

There were several other times during Season Two where Andre was too busy scheming and/or cowardly to confront Lucious about the rashness of his father's behavior. Andre is like the dog with a bone who looks into a pond and sees his own reflection and loses the bone he has trying to get more. It wasn't enough for Andre & Rhonda to play their positions and enjoy the charmed life they'd worked hard for, they wanted it all, and in the end they (especially Rhonda) lost it all. That's not on Lucious. That's on them. Because by end of Season Two Lucious is rewarding Andre & Rhonda (handsomely), cooing over his grandchild, and telling Andre he's done with testing his loyalty. It's Rhonda who seals her own fate by not being able to let go of the past. 

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 IMO, Rhonda and Andre were scheming because they realized that Lucious didn't favor Andre and didn't want to hand over the company to him. Everyone schemes at Empire and don't forget all scheming Andre had to do on Empire's behalf as well. Rhonda's killing Uncle Vernon was an ACCIDENT. We all know that. Andre ended up confessing that to Lucious which Lucious praised Andre for and thought it was a great thing they did for getting rid of the FBI informant. He was afraid Vernon was going to snitch to the FBI about Bunkie's killing.  Infact, that's when Lucious really got close to Andre and starting entrusting him with Empire stuff. He ended up buying them a huge mansion when Rhonda got pregnant. So there's that.

Andre & Rhonda's reasons for scheming are irrelevant imo. Lucious is not obligated to choose Andre to run Empire. Yes, Andre is qualified, but if he was that hungry to run a company, (as Lucious tells him) he could take his talents anywhere else. 

If Rhonda killing Vernon was truly an accident, then they should've done the right thing and dealt with it accordingly. Rhonda using her pregnancy to manipulate Andre into keeping it a secret, knowing how close Andre & Vernon were, was the proverbial first nail in her casket. And Andre's willingness to sacrifice his pseudo-father figure, to get back into Lucious good graces and the Lyon inner circle, makes it difficult to feel too bad when Andre himself is eventually burned by karma.

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She didn't have to. All I would have liked to see was for her to have just been there more often to provide a shoulder for him to cry on and encourage him to take his meds and learn to live life without Rhonda. I just felt like Jamal was doing Cookie's job. Talking about Andre being distant from his mother, if I were a writer in the Empire's writer's room, I could have suggested to use this moment as a time to bring Andre closer to his mother and heal that broken bond. He was alone and vulnerable with no one to turn to at a time of grief. His mother would have been that person for him to depend on, rely on and break that ice between them. I'm sure Cookie would have appreciated that. JMHO

Cookie is the CEO of a troubled major conglomerate and was busy putting out fires Lucious kept setting. She had been shown to be there for her oldest son, at least as much as Jamal, but there is only so much she can do for Andre. As Nessa told Andre earlier this season, his lack of self sufficiency is not her problem, nor should it be Cookie's.

The rest of the family didn't abandon Andre either, they were in the midst of running a huge company. One so massive it had Jamal returning to work a month after almost dying. So yes, while Cookie is Andre's mother, she's not a grief counselor or a psychiatrist. If Andre was that broken he needed to hospitalize himself until he healed properly because all the kind words and hand holding would not bring Andre & Cookie closer until Andre confronts his issues with his Mother, which have nothing to do with Rhonda's death.

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I'm not comparing these 2 relationships. Far from it. Jamal's special bond with his mother had been created from childhood and Jamal knew it. I believe Jamal knew that he could only get that 'special acceptance' from his mother that's why he never wanted to miss any opportunity to visit his mother in prison. His mother understood him and accepted him, unlike his father. We all saw what a mess Jamal was when Cookie came out of prison. He had been rejected by his father, put down in every which way, his musical career stunted and shoved in the back-burner by Lucious, while Hakeem was getting all the spotlight, support and praise from his father. Cookie literally had to rebuild Jamal's self-esteem, musical talent and everything else. I just wanted to see her uplift Andre in the same way especially as his father had put him down so much because of his illness. JMHO

For Andre & Cookie to truly reconcile, Andre has to want to reconcile. Cookie has given him all the opportunities in the world to repair their relationship, but Andre is content with their relationship the way it is. She's made inroads with Jamal (and Hakeem) because both boys made it known they missed, and wanted, her in their lives, on a personal level.

Andre has made no such overtures. Beyond using Cookie as a weapon for his own gain, he's polite to her, but his obsession for Lucious approval supersedes everything else.

Even now, Cookie is going out of her way to keep him from making huge life changing mistakes, and he treats her with barely concealed contempt. In Andre's mind, women are pawns, that he has little use for if/when they think for themselves. It's a pattern with him from Rhonda to Michelle to Nessa to Guiliana, and most especially Cookie.

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Lucious has been a disappointment as a father TBH. Not even using his bad experience with his mother can excuse that as far as I am concerned. JMHO

I'm not excusing Lucious failures as a parent. But his childhood trauma is every bit as valid as Andre's. Just as there were no summits or massive family fortunes for Andre growing up, there weren't any for Lucious either.

It's a generational thing. 

In Lucious mind, he became a success by constantly grinding and not dealing with his lingering issues, so to him, it's a mystery why his sons can't/won't do the same. The Lyon sons have grown up with the knowledge that there are far more healthy ways to deal with things (despite Lucious considerable influence) which is why they're uniformly stronger (especially when they lean into their brotherly bonds), but even with all that, the Lyon sons (just like their father) are just as susceptible to letting the past control their present. 

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I think might just have to disagree on that one because I don't see Hakeem as having matured at all. He is just the same old spoiled, irresponsible brat that he was when the show started. Just because he made a podcast about baby Bella and being a good father doesn't make him a good father. Lucious has been raising his daughter all this time. Just recently, he was involved in that brawl at their club where the girl was suing Empire for loads of money. Andre and Thirsty had to come in and try to clean up his mess. Cookie literally dragged him by the ears to go explain to his father and what has Lucious done again? Given him back his Live stream on Empire Xtreme. SMH

Hakeem is still reckless, self indulgent and irresponsible (and likely always will be), but he has made huge strides from the pilot. This is a kid who has gone from livestreaming himself urinating in restaurants and doing nothing but partying constantly to embracing fatherhood and genuinely trying to atone for his past.

He's far from perfect (hence your birthday example) but he didn't initiate that brawl, and, when he witnessed, firsthand, the real world consequences of his rampant misogyny in the aftermath, he took steps (with Andre, Cookie, Tiana & Jamal's tough love) to rectify the situation. Andre, Thirsty & Lucious had to bat clean up (which in Thirsty's case didn't work) but it's not as if Hakeem's brothers are any better.

Jamal was more than willing to spiral into addiction & panic attacks, instead of admitting to his childish need to 'beat' Lucious, and Andre is willing to go scorched earth, on everyone, because he refuses to see anyone besides himself as Empire's heir apparent.

So Hakeem is hardly alone in being deeply flawed.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Dee

[Keepitmoving]

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Cookie couldn't force Andre to take his meds. No one could. It took Jamal begging Andre (literally) to let him control Andre's meds for Andre to finally concede even to the slightest bit of help. From the very beginning of the series Andre constantly kept his family at arm's length, prioritizing his marriage to Rhonda over the rest of the family yet every time he's needed the family this season, they've showed up for him. And every time they support him, he acts genuinely surprised, as if he can't comprehend that they're willing to be there for him which says more about Andre's state of mind, and how he views the rest of his family than vice versa.

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Andre has made no such overtures. Beyond using Cookie as a weapon for his own gain, he's polite to her but his obsession for Lucious approval supersedes everything else.

Even now, Cookie is going out of her way to keep him from making huge life changing mistakes and he treats her with barely concealed contempt. 

 

 

 

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For Andre & Cookie to truly reconcile, Andre has to want to reconcile. Cookie has given him all the opportunities in the world to repair their relationship, but Andre is content the way it is. She made an inroads with Jamal (and Hakeem) because both boys made it known they missed & wanted her in their life, on a personal level.

I always got the impression that he looks down on his mother quite frankly and I don't much appreciate it. Did he ever go see Cookie when she was in jail? Because Jamal did. And being in college is not an excuse, because he wasn't away in college for seventeen years. Hakeem, after his initial disrespect toward his mother when she first showed up has since shown that he loves and wants to have a relationship with her. He's actually jealous of he bond Cookie has with Jamal. Andre is the only one who acts like he doesn't give a shit about his mother, so she doesn't push it. She was there for him during his baptism, encouraging him on. She, was there for him when he was committed to that hospital and I remember her trying to understand what his mental illness was after her initial denial. Luscious of course, never showed up.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[jhlipton]

On 5/4/2017 at 2:15 AM, journalism16 said:

So if we think about it, the Lyon family are the Capulets and the Dubois family are the Montagues. Now, I am not saying someone will get killed right away, but we can assume that it will happen this way, because it always does; but the only difference is, the star crossed lovers are Cookie and Lucious, not Cookie and Angelo.

"For I shall be late, and you will find me pepper'd." -- Thirsty fills the Mercutio spot better than anyone but I don't him killed.

On 5/4/2017 at 11:03 PM, Dee said:

Freda is still in the Lyon fold, albeit lately with Shyne & Andre; however for someone with her rap sheet, that's still fairly significant.

I see her name ( Bre-Z) in the credits, but has she been been in any recent episodes?

14 hours ago, Mrs OldManBalls said:

Hakeem's penthouse: So, he has a pool table and marble tub in his living room??? 

Don't you?  Doesn't everyone?  LOL

[crowceilidh]

Every single title of every episode from all three seasons (I think - I just took a quick glance) is from Shakespeare.  I love that as the show itself is so deliberately Shakespearian.  I imagine someone somewhere follows these namings and their significances.

[Margohill]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 1:55 PM, Keepitmoving said:

I always got the impression that he looks down on his mother quite frankly and I don't much appreciate it. Did he ever go see Cookie when she was in jail?

That's why I like a great discourse because it is very interesting to get the views of other fans who also watch the show. I have never thought of Andre as looking down at his mother at all from watching this show as an avid fan. I know that Andre definitely feels ashamed of his mother's criminal past because he was the oldest child and was much more aware of what went down. Andre went to a high profile college where he mingled with the Upper class kids from extremely wealthy familes. I can clearly understand how he felt when it came to his parent's backgrounds. He knows both worlds because he has lived in them and that's why he has not been very comfortable about the idea of his mother having gone to prison. That's probably why he didn't feel comfortable visiting her in jail. To me, I feel it was more painful for Andre to see his mother in prison. I have never perceived him as looking down at his mother at all.

Now how he mends his relationship with his mother is up to the writers. I am still enjoying the show but there are just certain storylines that I feel can be enriched with more family bonding and coming together. S1 was extremely successful primarily because of the great relationship that was displayed between Cookie and Jamal and it is always a win-win situation when family becomes more of a priority than becoming a CEO and running a business. Both can be done at the same time IMO. In S1, Cookie was neither a CEO or running the business at the time but she was the greatest mother, support system and great backbone of the family. She still is, but not portrayed as much as was in S1.

It will be interesting to see how the season finally wraps up. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Margohill

[Dee]

Cookie has constantly gone out of her way to compliment and support Andre. But because he is older, and essentially had a family of his own by the time she was released, Cookie couldn't be a Mother Hen to him the way she is/was to Jamal and Hakeem who operate as a set.

Andre never visited his Mother in prison, then when she was released, he dispassionately apologized for ignoring her for the better part of two decades and immediately launched into utilizing Cookie as a weapon to overthrow Lucious. And it must be said that as much as Andre wants to take Empire 'mainstream,' he doesn't look down on his father, despite the fact that he grew up as his father's closest henchman, before attending Wharton. So if he can accept his father wholesale, why not his Mother?

Andre also never once apologizes for lying to, or genuinely thanks, Cookie for her unyielding belief in his ability. The closest he gets to making things right with her is just prior to his baptism; where she pretty much gives him a full pardon then takes a front seat in full support of his religious conversion.

After Rhonda lost the baby Cookie constantly asked Andre about his condition yet he kept insisting that he was fine. Cookie and Rhonda even had a long discussion about Andre's illness where Cookie expressed extreme apprehension about Andre's well being and Rhonda admitted that she couldn't even get Andre to properly take care of his mental health. If Rhonda, Andre's closest confidant, couldn't get Andre to take his meds, what good would Cookie (or any of the rest of Andre's family) be? 

Season Three has had as much quality Lyon Family bonding as Season One imo. As much as the Lyons fight, they also love incredibly hard and immediately close ranks, against enemies when necessary. The Lyons have always mixed business and family, which has been one of their greatest strengths, and arguably their greatest weakness.

Would more Cookie and Andre scenes be good? Sure. But to ignore the very real issues between them for the sake of 'bonding' wouldn't make sense imo. Lucious and Jamal have a very complex relationship as do Anika and Hakeem, despite not always being on the same side; why should Cookie and Andre be any different?

One of the better developments over Empire's past three seasons, has been moving away from Lucious as the default 'leader' in business and introducing the overarching questions of how one defines family, what makes a 'good' leader and what constitutes 'real' power. The reason everyone in the Lyon Family wants to be Empire's CEO is because everyone has a different perspective on those three questions. So far everyone has had a crack at the position except Andre, although I think that will change fairly quick.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Dee

[Margohill]

5 minutes ago, Dee said:

Would more Cookie and Andre scenes be good? Sure. But to ignore the very real issues between them for the sake of 'bonding' wouldn't make sense imo.

There, you have hit the nail on the head. One of the questions one might ask is, what made S1 such a great hit? If you look critically at the storylines then, one thing clearly stands out. S1 was more about family unity, bonding, supporting family and protecting family. Cookie even refused to snitch on Lucious despite how badly Lucious had treated her.

My take on all of this is, I strongly feel that there is a ripe storyline between Cookie and Andre that could be exploited. The issues between Andre and Cookie and how that can be resolved with them repairing that broken bond and becoming close again. I think a lot of viewers would prefer to watch that storyline play out, than the Lyons fighting each other and Andre trying to kill his father IMO.

Again, it's all up to the writers.

[Dee]

Season One had to be about family unity if only because Cookie had just been released from prison and was in the process of reaclimmating to the family. Season Three has been exploring the bonds of family in very interesting ways, but the characters are no longer static.

It's no longer Cookie & Jamal vs. Lucious & Hakeem with Andre & Rhonda as spoilers in the middle; nor should it be. The family has expanded and grown much deeper with alliances constantly shifting and relationships evolving for better and/or worse which adds a great deal of complexity to the existing mythology of the show. And now, in Season Three, after all the drama Lyons have put each other through, they still all refuse to snitch on each other. Just like in Seasons One & Two.

I think there is massive potential between Cookie and all of her sons. However, if Cookie & Andre don't mend their relationship and become BFF's it doesn't mean there's a problem with the writing. Cookie is not the only Lyon family member Andre has a frayed relationship with, he has deep issues with all of his family, except Nana Leah. The writers have developed wonderfully complex relationships for Hakeem & Anika and Lucious & Jamal without making them close. Lucious and Jamal are just as likely to argue as they are to hug and though Hakeem & Anika are co-parents they aren't joining a book club together anytime soon.

The show has gotten great mileage out of Andre going dark, not only because it's allowed Trai to really stretch as an actor, but because the eventual fallout will give the rest of the family really meaty material to deal with, and because Andre's gonna learn the same lesson both Hakeem & Jamal had if/when he finally grasps what he believes is his birthright. That power is ultimately a Pyrrhic victory, which will force him to reorient himself, just as his brothers have, in the aftermath of their tenures as CEO.

[Margohill]

5 minutes ago, Dee said:

I think there is massive potential between Cookie and all of her sons. However, if Cookie & Andre don't mend their relationship and become BFF's it doesn't mean there's a problem with the writing.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying the writing is bad because it doesn't go one way or another. My issue is that, ARE THE WRITERS PROVIDING GOOD ENOUGH MATERIAL THAT THEIR AUDIENCE IS INTERESTED IN? it doesn't matter how well your writing is. It could be as great and complex as writing can get but if it doesn't appeal to your audience or touch them emotionally in a way that they connect with the story you are telling, then the viewers lose interest and leave.

S1 was such a hit because the audience connected with the storyline, loved it and stayed engaged. Things have changed since then and as all writers know, it's always a challenge to keep the story interesting all the time. The advantage that Empire writers had was the S1 format which they could still follow and at the same time have the characters evolve and not stay static. JMHO

 Family unity, bonding, working together, protecting and supporting each other has worked very well. We have also seen that the Lyons fighting each other has not worked as well.

So again, it's all up to the writers how much they want to keep their audience engaged.

[Dee]

Season 1 was a hit because there was nothing on television like Empire. Seriously.

When was the last time that there was an all Black drama headed by two Black Academy Award nominees playing a legendary music mogul and his whirlwind of an ex-wife? Answer: There NEVER had been prior to Empire. That's why Season One was a hit.

Season Two had it's pacing issues, and occasionally stumbled as most hit shows do in their second season, but the writers ultimately maintained the integrity of the show and it continued to be a success.

Now in Season Three, the writers have doubled down on everything that made Season One a hit, but in an era of streaming and multi platformed networks, quality writing & acting can only do so much, especially for a show that is literally accomplishing feats that still have never been seen or done in television before. Other massive tv hits like Grey's Anatomy, Modern Family, The Walking Dead and The Big Bang Theory are suffering from similar issues, so Empire is certainly not alone in that regard.

And it would be shortsighted to romanticize Season One as being about family support and working together.

Lucious shot an extended family member, in the face, in the pilot, infidelity and violence ran rampant, and the Lyon Family remained incredibly fractured from the pilot all the way through the first season's finale. So it would be a mistake to ascribe Season One as a bastion of familial unity.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Dee

[Margohill]

11 hours ago, Dee said:

Season 1 was a hit because there was nothing on television like Empire. Seriously.

When was the last time that there was an all Black drama headed by two Black Academy Award nominees playing a legendary music mogul and his whirlwind of an ex-wife? Answer: There NEVER had been prior to Empire. That's why Season One was a hit.

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Don't ever kid yourself that because it was because an all-black cast/top actors playing the lead roles that made Empire a hit in S1. RIDICULOUS!! For goodness sakes, please give the Empire writers their due credit for being superb writers in S1 and that is a fact. You must understand that the ratings for Empire kept going UP and UP every week and there was a reason for that;excellent writing, acting and story-telling.

1. Lucious suffering from ALS and wanting to decide which son to give his Empire to before he dies.

2. Cookie coming out of prison after sacrificing 17 years of her life so Lucious can make a better life for her children.

3. Jamal and the whole sexuality issue struck a cord with an audience and Cookie standing by his side to support and uplift him was superb. Everyone loved that bond between Jamal and Cookie.

4, Lucious fighting Billy Beretti to keep his company.

5. Cookie and her knock-out one-liners.

6. The different dynamics that were in play: Cookie/Lucious, Cookie/Anika, Lucious/Anika, Lucious/Anika/Cookie. Cookie/Hakeem.

7. The feds going after Cookie to try to get her to testify.

8. Cookie mentoring and producing artists like Tiana, Elle Dallas, and Jamal was admirable.

9. Addressing bipolar disorder with Andre. His acting was and is terrific.

10. The family dinners at Lucious's estate were always a riot.

11. Excellent music by Jamal which blended in with his storylines. Hakeem also made some great music.

etc.

The only reason why ratings could go up week after week is because of great story-telling which resonates with your audience and great acting as well. 

JMHO 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Margohill

[Dee]

All of those dynamics, with a few minor changes, are still in play in Season Three.

The fact that Empire was breaking new ground in so many ways (much like predecessors like Grey's & HTGAWM) was also definitely part of its initial appeal. And like those aforementioned shows first couple of seasons, Empire set the bar so high, it would be difficult to match it, even under the best of circumstances.

However, the episode to episode writing, and overall storytelling, for Empire's Third Season easily matches Season One, and the music has been reinvigorated since the show traded Timbaland in for Rodney Jerkins.

But just as with every hot series, once the novelty wears off, fans begin viewing earlier seasons through rose colored glasses; when, in many cases, the current episodes of various hit shows possess similar, if not better, quality.

The Lyons of Season Three have retained everything about what made them great in Season One (no small feat) while growing into much richer characters as their world has expanded, and the show, as a whole, is much better for it.

JMHO

[Margohill]

10 hours ago, Dee said:

All of those dynamics, with a few minor changes, are still in play in Season Three.

I don't know about that Dee. Whatever dynamics are in play in S3, they are definitely not as enjoyable as those in S1. Characters have been maimed or killed off, the storylines have become darker and yes the writing is better in S3 than S2 but there is that magical allure that S1 had which is missing in S3. It all has to do with the direction the story-telling has taken and less about the writing. I am still watching the show but I don't enjoy it as much as I did S1. S2 we have to agree, was all over the place.

10 hours ago, Dee said:

The fact that Empire was breaking new ground in so many ways (much like predecessors like Grey's & HTGAWM) was also definitely part of its initial appeal. And like those aforementioned shows first couple of seasons, Empire set the bar so high, it would be difficult to match it, even under the best of circumstances.

Yes I agree Empire definitely broke new ground and set the bar high BUT, Empire could still meet that bar if they wanted to. They wrote S1 and I don't see how they can't continue with that same standard. For some reason, the writers chose to go in a different direction in S2 and ignore all those aspects that made S1 so great. I am not criticizing anyone because I know characters have to evolve. If you have discovered what works, why not keep it? What I mean by that is, you can still get the characters to evolve but try to do so while working with material that is engaging to your audience.

11 hours ago, Dee said:

However, the episode to episode writing, and overall storytelling, for Empire's Third Season easily matches Season One, and the music has been reinvigorated since the show traded Timbaland in for Rodney Jerkins.

I disagree with you on that but I'll keep some of the reasons to myself as I don't want to sound too critical. However, the music in S1 was unique in that, it was incorporated into the storyline. You could feel the music blending in with the storyline. It was not just singing songs for the sake of it. These were great songs specifically made and well incorporated into the story. That was UNIQUE.

Cookie made Lucious a star. It would have been nice to see her go out there, recruit and produce new artists for Empire like she did in S1. She has a great talent for music that needs to be showcased more IMO.

11 hours ago, Dee said:

But just as with every hot series, once the novelty wears off, fans begin viewing earlier seasons through rose colored glasses; when, in many cases, the current episodes of various hit shows possess similar, if not better, quality.

The novelty only wears off if things become less interesting even if the writing is better. It's all about the material one has to work with that resonates well with your audience, issues that people can relate to or have experienced in their lives. S1 did an excellent job addressing tough issues that people really could relate to. If things get too dark with family members fighting each other continuously, it can wear down on the audience and become a turn-off to some IMO. It's important to understand your audience and Empire had a clear view of what their audience liked in S1 so that should not be a tough issue for the writers IMO.

11 hours ago, Dee said:

The Lyons of Season Three have retained everything about what made them great in Season One (no small feat) while growing into much richer characters as their world has expanded, and the show, as a whole, is much better for it.

The characters have definitely evolved and for that the writers have achieved what they wanted but the audience may not really agree that all the characters were made richer.

For one thing, Anika sleeping with Hakeem and getting pregnant by him certainly made her less richer in character...LOL!! I couldn't believe that was happening but hey, her character evolved in it's own way. Hakeem of all people..LOL!!!!

Andre certainly became richer as a character because he was somewhat stagnated in S2 but S3 has brought him more to the fore-front with great material to sink his teeth into. He has certainly gone darker but at least his strengths are coming to light and his bipolar has been less of an issue at least for now. We'll see.

Cookie to me stayed more or less the same. She is trying to run Empire with Lucious but Lucious is certainly over-shadowing her. He still stabs her in the back when he gets the chance. She could do more for herself though. Less focus on boyfriends and more on Cookie herself and her relationship with her boys would be better IMO.

Hakeem is more or less the same as in S1. He is beginning to realize his reckless behavior is not helping him but Lucious still keeps on spoiling him. He had a baby that he couldn't care for and Lucious had to take care of his baby for him. That's not being mature to me. I hope he grows up in S4. Even Tiana has realized that Hakeem is a self-centered brat.

Lucious is Lucious is Lucious. Nothing has changed with him. Did his mother really abuse him? We still need to hear her own side of the story since we have only seen Lucious's story about her, through flash backs. He took Andre to a graveyard and showed him a fake grave which he claimed belonged to his mother. It turns out that his mother was still alive. How many lies has Lucious been telling people?

Jamal has regressed a little and I can understand that his shooting did a lot of damage to his career since he just couldn't perform on stage anymore. His drug addiction was a good storyline but he needs to stay away from relationships until he sorts himself out.

I'm still a die-hard Empire fan and won't miss an Episode because of the great Taraji P. Henson. Her acting on this show is phenomenal. I will still criticize the show where I see fit because I know some are in denial about how the show has lost some of it's focus. They can still get it back if the writers want to.

Remember folks: IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MATERIAL YOU WORK WITH THAT RESONATES WELL WITH YOUR AUDIENCE AND GREAT CONTINUITY IN TELLING THE STORY.

JMHO

[Dee]

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I don't know about that Dee. Whatever dynamics are in play in S3, they are definitely not as enjoyable as those in S1. Characters have been maimed or killed off, the storylines have become darker and yes the writing is better in S3 than S2 but there is that magical allure that S1 had which is missing in S3. It all has to do with the direction the story-telling has taken and less about the writing. I am still watching the show but I don't enjoy it as much as I did S1. S2 we have to agree, was all over the place.

The writing has become darker because it wouldn't be realistic for it not to be.

The writing for Season One wasn't 'light' or 'magical.' Season One had Jamal flashing back to being thrown in a trash can, Cookie & Carol enacting a hit on a potential threat, Andre playing russian roulette, Rhonda bludgeoning Vernon to death and Lucious shooting one of his best friends in the face.

How is that not dark?

The major difference between Seasons One & Three is that Season Three has really begun to mine the psyche of these severely damaged characters. Seasons One & Two had them inflicting unnecessary hurt on each other because they took their family for granted. Now, the Lyons have accepted their intense familial bonds, they are individually beginning to really question who they are on an elemental level, and how those changes do and/or don't, relate to the larger family.

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Yes I agree Empire definitely broke new ground and set the bar high BUT, Empire could still meet that bar if they wanted to. They wrote S1 and I don't see how they can't continue with that same standard. For some reason, the writers chose to go in a different direction in S2 and ignore all those aspects that made S1 so great. I am not criticizing anyone because I know characters have to evolve. If you have discovered what works, why not keep it? What I mean by that is, you can still get the characters to evolve but try to do so while working with material that is engaging to your audience.

The writers didn't ignore what made Empire a success in Season Two. They were in the process of telling three very separate stories, which hurt the shows pacing and larger story. Thankfully the writers realized, and were able to address, the shows narrative issues by mid-season and righted, figuratively, the ship.

The problem came with major fan expectation of what they assumed they felt certain characters should and/or shouldn't do vs. the writers choices. So many fans had a problem when, say, Cookie & Anika didn't 'team up' to 'take Lucious down,' which wouldn't (at the time) have been plausible or realistic. Or the temporary severing of Cookie and Jamal's bond, despite the fact that a major aspect of Jamal's Season One arc was about him becoming a force in his own right.

Even Season Two's guest stars weren't as intrusive as they were made out to be. The only one that was really 'extraneous' was Ludacris, but he'd grown into a good enough actor where his appearance wasn't really problematic. And Empire has addressed the majority of, if not all, of viewer complaints (both by the writers and the actors), in Season Three. It doesn't mean the show is perfect, but that its cast & crew are actively receptive to feedback and unafraid to make efforts to continually improve.

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I disagree with you on that but I'll keep some of the reasons to myself as I don't want to sound too critical. However, the music in S1 was unique in that, it was incorporated into the storyline. You could feel the music blending in with the storyline. It was not just singing songs for the sake of it. These were great songs specifically made and well incorporated into the story. That was UNIQUE.

The music is the same in Season Two & especially Season Three. The only difference with the music in Season Two vs. Season One is Hakeem's music took a backseat to Jamal's, largely because Jussie's singles sold better than Bryshere's. Bryshere's music also suffered in Season Two because his music was overshadowed from the show returning to basics by mid-Season Two.

However, the music in Season Three has been fantastic. Bryshere has never sounded better or more focused, Jamal's songs have gone a long way to proving how far he's grown both as an artist and as a character, and even Lucious music is less self indulgent and forced in Season Three, than compared to previous seasons. He's been shown as organically building a sound in Season Three vs. forcing mediocre songs (Boom Boom Boom Boom) at the audience via sheer repetition.

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Cookie made Lucious a star. It would have been nice to see her go out there, recruit and produce new artists for Empire like she did in S1. She has a great talent for music that needs to be showcased more IMO.

Cookie never recruited any new artists in Season One. She literally only worked with Tiana, Jamal and Elle. It was Lucious, Anika & Jamal who recruited 'new' artists for Empire.

Cookie has an awesome ear & has made a fantastic A&R exec in the past, but that coveted position is a step down from being CEO. She's still been shown to produce, but now that Jamal's become more independent, she's largely focused her efforts on Tiana.

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The novelty only wears off if things become less interesting even if the writing is better. It's all about the material one has to work with that resonates well with your audience, issues that people can relate to or have experienced in their lives. S1 did an excellent job addressing tough issues that people really could relate to. If things get too dark with family members fighting each other continuously, it can wear down on the audience and become a turn-off to some IMO. It's important to understand your audience and Empire had a clear view of what their audience liked in S1 so that should not be a tough issue for the writers IMO.

Again, there was nothing like Empire on television before Season One so there was literally no comparison. If viewers have found the Lyons fighting to be annoying, that's a valid issue.

But the writers have gone to great lengths to continuously incorporate warm family moments into the show to balance things out.

Andre & Hakeem have been at odds for the better part of the season yet Andre had no problem showing up for his brother's birthday, and while Lucious has gone to great lengths to keep Shyne close to suit his own needs, he's also clearly relished having his old friend back imo.

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Jamal has regressed a little and I can understand that his shooting did a lot of damage to his career since he just couldn't perform on stage anymore. His drug addiction was a good storyline but he needs to stay away from relationships until he sorts himself out.

I don't think Jamal's regressed at all. If anything he's grown a lot stronger, and not just because he survived being shot. He's accepted, if not exactly been happy with, the family's dynamic and has become much more comfortable as an artist and an individual.

Jamal went from having absolutely no drive, or desire, to make commercial music in the pilot, to being one of Empire's biggest selling artists who also isn't afraid of standing up to both of his extremely intimidating parents when he feels they're wrong.

That's a huge change.

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Hakeem is more or less the same as in S1. He is beginning to realize his reckless behavior is not helping him but Lucious still keeps on spoiling him. He had a baby that he couldn't care for and Lucious had to take care of his baby for him. That's not being mature to me. I hope he grows up in S4. Even Tiana has realized that Hakeem is a self-centered brat.

Hakeem isn't nearly the character he was in Season One.

He's retained his charm and impulsive streak, but he's slowly grown into someone who can be, and more importantly, wants to be, trusted with a child. He still retains all his problematic qualities (as have the rest of the Lyons), but he's exhibited quite a bit of growth over this season, starting with realizing he needs to appreciate and protect those most important to him (Tiana, Bella) and is in the process of learning how to be self aware and practice self restraint.

 

I seriously disagree with many of the rest of your points, but, since we've veered way off topic it's best we end this discussion now.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Dee

[Margohill]

25 minutes ago, Dee said:

it's best we end this discussion now.

AGREED!!!

[tennisgurl]

During Hakeem's live stream, all I could think, was  "Oh my God dude, get a blog".

Then when Lucious called it a podcast, I said "its a live stream" at the same moment Hakeem did! Very strange moment for me.

[Chairperson Meow]

On Wednesday, May 03, 2017 at 10:09 PM, Dee said:

Calling it now: Andre is behind Bella being snatched.

I think the big sign for me was his face when Cookie and Luscious said that since Andre was once a part of Angelo's world, what would he do?  I think he was definitely thinking it then.   It would be the best act of revenge ever.  Anika took his child and wife.  Why not let her get independence (not being a Lyon) and then take Bella?  I wouldn't be surprised if Andre flipped  on everyone and joined forces with Tariq.  Hell, I'll take Andre setting up the Angelo bribe.  

Edited May 10, 2017 by Chairperson Meow
Forgot something

[phoenics]

Is the topic for the new episode up and I just don't see it?