S05.E20: Underneath

[johntfs]

I love the way the women on this (not including Black Siren) show are such intelligent adults.  Emily Bett Rickards is still only 25 (she turns 26 in July) and Felicity is supposed to be about a year older than she is.  If I didn't know better, I'd assume that Felicity was in her early thirties but being portrayed by a somewhat younger actress because of the way she just exudes insight,  maturity and self-possession.  The same thing is true for Willa Holland whom I kind of miss (the show remembers that Oliver does have a younger sister, right?).

It's kind of weird that I also watch The Flash, which is near 180 in its treatment of its women, setting up more as goals to be attained, victims to be protected or ornaments to accentuate the male in question.

[Delphi]

9 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

 

Has he ever used that Felicity voice before or is it a new thing? Methinks it's a new thing in this episode.

I noticed it as well.  He goes a few octaves higher,  and is clearly a "I'm completely smitten" kind of voice.   

I think it's new,  or at least I've never heard it before.   Either way,  I loved it. 

[EmilyBettFan]

The scene where Oliver talks about his torture and what it "revealed" about himself to Felicity killed me. I didn't notice they were both crying. ??

[legaleagle53]

17 hours ago, johntfs said:

I love the way the women on this (not including Black Siren) show are such intelligent adults.

And conversely, the men are, for the most part, such complete dumbasses that I'm embarrassed for my gender.  Oliver's held the idiot ball for so long this season that it's no surprise to me at all that his son William fell for Chase's manipulations so easily -- the apple didn't fall far from that particular tree at all.

[Chaser]

The more gifs I see of The Scene, the more I see how filthy some of those kisses were. They were unhinging their jaws. 

I don't know if I really see chemistry between Diggle and Dinah. When I look at Olicity, I see the chemistry. It's more than a look, it's like the actors adjust for each other, change. It's hard to describe but I just don't see it with Diggle and Dinah. I just see Diggle being Diggle and Dinah looking like she wants to climb him. 

[lemotomato]

58 minutes ago, Chaser said:

The more gifs I see of The Scene, the more I see how filthy some of those kisses were. They were unhinging their jaws. 

I don't know if I really see chemistry between Diggle and Dinah. When I look at Olicity, I see the chemistry. It's more than a look, it's like the actors adjust for each other, change. It's hard to describe but I just don't see it with Diggle and Dinah. I just see Diggle being Diggle and Dinah looking like she wants to climb him. 

I wonder if the filthy kissing was because of the direction. Wendy Stanzler directed the Oliver/Sara lunge (213) and the Thea/Roy reunion (322), both of which were more passionate/hot than romantic. Antonio Negret directed both of the previous Olicity make out scenes, and those seemed more artsy and romantic and careful, compared to the one in 520, when they just went at it.

Agreed about Dinah and Diggle. I thought she was seriously giving him sultry looks when she was telling him about Vinnie. It's really different from how she interacts with Oliver (deference) and Rene and Curtis (amusement/exasperation). 

Edited May 7, 2017 by lemotomato

[Guest]

I thought the episode as a whole was really well directed. One of the first shots where Oliver checks the bunker searching for Chase was especially great. Bring back Wendy Stanzler more often!

Also for the hot kisses too because they finally just went for it. I love all Olicity kisses but I've felt like they sometimes held back a bit? IDK. But they definitely didn't hold back here and I approve so hard. ;P

Edited May 7, 2017 by Guest

[lemotomato]

I'd really like to see the script pages for the scene. :D So much of the dialog about how to do the salmon ladder sounds a lot like just SA and EBR being themselves.

Edited May 7, 2017 by lemotomato

[statsgirl]

I'm still trying to catch up with all the comments on the episode. I can't remember the last time an episode thread went to six pages, not to mention within three days.

I really liked the parallel of Felicity telling Oliver she always backed him even when she didn't agree with his decisions so why isn't he backing her, and Lyla telling Diggle he always backed Oliver even when he didn't agree with his decisions so why isn't he backing her?

I also liked that both Oliver and Felicity were tearing up in their last scene.  Oliver finally looked ready to re-examine what he believed about himself.

On 2017-05-04 at 8:57 AM, tv echo said:

kasumikai asked:
Hey marc can you give a specific time period when the flashback olicity sex scene happened?
We didn’t have a specific one in mind, but it was closer to 501 than 423.

I took this to mean that the flashback was September, maybe August rather than in June or July.   Oliver and Felicity had been working alone in the bunker, or rather with just Curtis, for a few months. Curtis was getting impatient for them to get back together again.

On 2017-05-04 at 1:48 AM, bijoux said:

I loved the Salmon ladder and the sexing and the afterglow, but I will proudly be a voice of discontent and still put 320 above this on my personal scale. This one didn't even have Felicity drugging Oliver, what's that about?

She did drug him!  The adrenaline. At least I count it as a drug, given the ridiculous cost of my epi-pen.

On 2017-05-04 at 3:53 AM, BkWurm1 said:

So the question for me hanging in the air ends up being was the talk supposed to be them working on their issues and thus their relationship like I believe Oliver would think, or was Felicity offering a post-mortem of their relationship to give Oliver closure since she didn't see this impasse between them changing? Felicity is in tears when she says she's not ready to talk about it.  She might have been wanting to give Oliver what he needs but also find the topic too sensitive to pick apart. Right now.

It's the only angle I can think of that would explain why instead of just waiting she would try to move on.  Because otherwise that's the implication, that she thinks probably somewhere down the road they could talk through their problems.  Only just the day before she pretty much said talking can't help.  Now 11 months later talking did help but the talk they needed wasn't about their past but new info that came to light about how Oliver viewed himself and why he wasn't able to fully give her the kind of trust she needed and deserved. 

So yeah, I think Felicity was offering one thing and Oliver was thinking she meant something else, thus Billy and his confusion.  I mean, she said in 505 that she was NOT trying to keep the door open for them.  Unless her future offer to talk about their break up was just closure for Oliver, her seeing Billy makes zero sense.  So that's my head canon. 

It makes zero sense to me that Felicity got from telling Oliver she wanted to talk but just wasn't ready yet, to getting into a relationship with Billy.  It's clear that Oliver didn't want a post mortem on their relationship, he wanted to get back together. That's why he said he'll be waiting for her, he's not going anywhere.  Felicity has to be smart enough to have realized that.

I wonder if they'll never explain it, just drop it altogether. I would be fine about that because it's inexplicable to me.

Edited May 7, 2017 by statsgirl

[GHScorpiosRule]

32 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

I took this to mean that the flashback was September, maybe August rather than in June or July.   Oliver and Felicity had been working alone in the bunker, or rather with just Curtis, for a few months. Curtis was getting impatient for them to get back together again.

 

Does Guggenheim not review or see the final episode before it goes or is sent to air? Because when the episode flashed back the first time, there was a tag that stated "Eleven months ago," which means that it took place in June, closer to 4x23. This episode counts as airing in May. So the flashback can't be September.

Edited May 7, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[insomniadreams88]

16 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Does Guggenheim not review or see the final episode before it goes or is sent to air? Because when the episode flashed back the first time, there was a tag that stated "Eleven months ago " which means that it took place in June, closer to 4x23. This episode counts as airing in May. So the flashback can't be September.

Maybe in MG's mind (and only his), it took Felicity a really long time to get the wine. But really, I'm hoping it's just in his mind and not something that will suddenly be said in-show at some point, because it was clearly closer to 423 than 501. Maybe he can't do simple math. 

3 hours ago, Chaser said:

The more gifs I see of The Scene, the more I see how filthy some of those kisses were. They were unhinging their jaws. 

I don't know if I really see chemistry between Diggle and Dinah. When I look at Olicity, I see the chemistry. It's more than a look, it's like the actors adjust for each other, change. It's hard to describe but I just don't see it with Diggle and Dinah. I just see Diggle being Diggle and Dinah looking like she wants to climb him. 

Yeah, the GIFs really make that obvious. Oh, it's glorious. 

I don't think they'll ever find chemistry like Olicity again on Arrow, but I think there is potential for Diggle/Dinah, enough that if they ever choose to go that way, it won't seem like it's happening out of nowhere. However, since Dyla ended on a positive note in this episode, I don't think that anything anyone is necessarily seeing between D/D is anything that will translate to something happening between them anytime soon. 

[statsgirl]

42 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Does Guggenheim not review or see the final episode before it goes or is sent to air? Because when the episode flashed back the first time, there was a tag that stated "Eleven months ago," which means that it took place in June, closer to 4x23. This episode counts as airing in May. So the flashback can't be September.

I missed that tag.  Oops.

I'm going to go with MG on this one though, in spite of what WM and Beth Schwartz wrote.  Emotionally it makes more sense to have the comfort between them and the tryst, not to mention Curtis' matchmaking, be later in the summer like August.  In June, Felicity would still have been too raw after Oliver's betrayal to be that flirty and comfortable with him.  It also fits better with Oliver telling Diggle in 5x01 that he was hoping they would get back together if the sex had been recent rather than 4 months earlier.

[Hiveminder]

50 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I'm still trying to catch up with all the comments on the episode. I can't remember the last time an episode thread went to six pages, not to mention within three days.

I really liked the parallel of Felicity telling Oliver she always backed him even when she didn't agree with his decisions so why isn't he backing her, and Lyla telling Diggle he always backed Oliver even when he didn't agree with his decisions so why isn't he backing her?

I also liked that both Oliver and Felicity were tearing up in their last scene.  Oliver finally looked ready to re-examine what he believed about himself.

I took this to mean that the flashback was September, maybe August rather than in June or July.   Oliver and Felicity had been working alone in the bunker, or rather with just Curtis, for a few months. Curtis was getting impatient for them to get back together again.

She did drug him!  The adrenaline. At least I count it as a drug, given the ridiculous cost of my epi-pen.

It makes zero sense to me that Felicity got from telling Oliver she wanted to talk but just wasn't ready yet, to getting into a relationship with Billy.  It's clear that Oliver didn't want a post mortem on their relationship, he wanted to get back together. That's why he said he'll be waiting for her, he's not going anywhere.  Felicity has to be smart enough to have realized that.

I wonder if they'll never explain it, just drop it altogether. I would be fine about that because it's inexplicable to me.

Everything about this episode made Felicity dating Billy so soon harder to understand (as if it wasn't hard already), but especially his comment about the timing. Even if they hadn't told us in writing (right on the screen) that the FBs happened in June, it doesn't make Felicity look good if they happened much later than that. 

I could swear that I read or heard somewhere (I have no idea where?) that Felicity had been with Billy for four months in 501.  Even if I'm wrong about that, they have to have been together for a decent enough amount of time if he had a key to her place. Which he must have to have been there waiting to give her a shoulder rub with his tiny, tiny hands. So, are we to believe Felicity was already seeing Billy when the bunker sex happened? I mean, I can understand if they'd just been in the beginning stages of dating and Felicity decided to kick it into high gear (but not meet my friends high gear) post bunker sex to give herself a reason not to slip up with Oliver again, but why not give as much cushion between sex with Oliver and dating Billy as they can?

[insomniadreams88]

16 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Everything about this episode made Felicity dating Billy so soon harder to understand (as if it wasn't hard already), but especially his comment about the timing. Even if they hadn't told us in writing (right on the screen) that the FBs happened in June, it doesn't make Felicity look good if they happened much later than that. 

I could swear that I read or heard somewhere (I have no idea where?) that Felicity had been with Billy for four months in 501.  Even if I'm wrong about that, they have to have been together for a decent enough amount of time if he had a key to her place. Which he must have to have been there waiting to give her a shoulder rub with his tiny, tiny hands. So, are we to believe Felicity was already seeing Billy when the bunker sex happened? I mean, I can understand if they'd just been in the beginning stages of dating and Felicity decided to kick it into high gear (but not meet my friends high gear) post bunker sex to give herself a reason not to slip up with Oliver again, but why not give as much cushion between sex with Oliver and dating Billy as they can?

Maybe MG forgot Billy existed. It is possible. The show seems to except for when they randomly mention him when it seems so out of place like that final O/F conversation in this episode. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by insomniadreams88

[Mellowyellow]

You know what we need? A poll!

I feel like I can't keep tabs on who prefers 520 or 320 sex and these are the things I want to know :p

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 hour ago, Hiveminder said:

Everything about this episode made Felicity dating Billy so soon harder to understand (as if it wasn't hard already), but especially his comment about the timing. Even if they hadn't told us in writing (right on the screen) that the FBs happened in June, it doesn't make Felicity look good if they happened much later than that. 

I could swear that I read or heard somewhere (I have no idea where?) that Felicity had been with Billy for four months in 501.  Even if I'm wrong about that, they have to have been together for a decent enough amount of time if he had a key to her place. Which he must have to have been there waiting to give her a shoulder rub with his tiny, tiny hands. So, are we to believe Felicity was already seeing Billy when the bunker sex happened? I mean, I can understand if they'd just been in the beginning stages of dating and Felicity decided to kick it into high gear (but not meet my friends high gear) post bunker sex to give herself a reason not to slip up with Oliver again, but why not give as much cushion between sex with Oliver and dating Billy as they can?

They never said when they started dating but when we see them together Felicity can't even call him her boyfriend and didn't introduce him to her friends yet so it seemed to me the beginning of their relationship..and it's possible he didn't have a key and she just doesn't lock the door of the loft (that sounds ridiculous I know, but if you notice people simply open the door to get in).

I think the writers didn't plan to explain how Oliver and Felicity went from engaged, to broken up and trying to adjust as partners to dating other people and that's why that part doesn't make sense. I think they were always planning to revisit Olicity and they had to bring Willaim up again but I think they didn't have in mind them having sex in the summer when they were writing the premiere.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

 

It makes zero sense to me that Felicity got from telling Oliver she wanted to talk but just wasn't ready yet, to getting into a relationship with Billy.  It's clear that Oliver didn't want a post mortem on their relationship, he wanted to get back together. That's why he said he'll be waiting for her, he's not going anywhere.  Felicity has to be smart enough to have realized that.

I wonder if they'll never explain it, just drop it altogether. I would be fine about that because it's inexplicable to me.

 

That was just my first attempt to explain what happened.  There was a review that TVEcho posted that had a nice bit of head canon in it that helps.   

Ok so she leaves the door open 11 months ago but being ready to talk about them getting back together still is something she would be set to do only after Oliver looked inside of himself and came up with some answers. She needed him to open up to her about why he didn't trust anyone fully, but the months went on and still nothing changed.  We get all the way to 501 and he still isn't even listening to her about bringing in help on the team.  Hence she feeling he's never going to give her what she needs and that would explain why she let Billy into her life a bit before 501, to help keep her from giving into temptation again.

Edited May 7, 2017 by BkWurm1

[leopardprint]

It's because Billy was there for Oliver's storyline not Felicity's that they aren't going to be able to explain it and why it makes no sense. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

17 hours ago, Chaser said:

I don't know if I really see chemistry between Diggle and Dinah. When I look at Olicity, I see the chemistry. It's more than a look, it's like the actors adjust for each other, change. It's hard to describe but I just don't see it with Diggle and Dinah. I just see Diggle being Diggle and Dinah looking like she wants to climb him. 

David Ramsey is one of those actors who has chemistry with everybody. I mean, he was able to somewhat sell a bond between Digg and Laurel. So when I see Digg with Tinah, I just see the usual easy chemistry he has with most everybody. JH though is really trying hard to sell something. The scenes with them do not call for the slanted, come hither, under the eyelashes looks she keeps throwing Digg and it's starting to bug me and pull me from the scenes. 

[Hiveminder]

11 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

They never said when they started dating but when we see them together Felicity can't even call him her boyfriend and didn't introduce him to her friends yet so it seemed to me the beginning of their relationship..and it's possible he didn't have a key and she just doesn't lock the door of the loft (that sounds ridiculous I know, but if you notice people simply open the door to get in).

I think the writers didn't plan to explain how Oliver and Felicity went from engaged, to broken up and trying to adjust as partners to dating other people and that's why that part doesn't make sense. I think they were always planning to revisit Olicity and they had to bring Willaim up again but I think they didn't have in mind them having sex in the summer when they were writing the premiere.

That's a good point, but she was still having trouble calling him her boyfriend by Christmas, and she didn't tell her friends about him until after Oliver found out through Human Target, who found out from Billy, who thought Oliver already knew. I don't think Felicity not calling him her boyfriend or introducing him to her friends had anything to do with the length of their relationship. It was because he was just a distraction, so I don't think that says anything one way or the other about how long they'd been dating. 

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, leopardprint said:

It's because Billy was there for Oliver's storyline not Felicity's that they aren't going to be able to explain it and why it makes no sense. 

THIS.

And it's okay with me if they never explain it, never, ever mention it again, because there's no way to fanwank it to have it make sense and not have Felicity look silly, in spite of how hard @BkWurm1 is working. 

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Ok so she leaves the door open 11 months ago but being ready to talk about them getting back together still is something she would be set to do only after Oliver looked inside of himself and came up with some answers. She needed him to open up to her about why he didn't trust anyone fully, but the months went on and still nothing changed.  We get all the way to 501 and he still isn't even listening to her about bringing in help on the team.  Hence she feeling he's never going to give her what she needs and that would explain why she let Billy into her life a bit before 501, to help keep her from giving into temptation again.

The Oliver in the flashback was willing to talk to Felicity any time she wants about William and trust.  He also said that he wasn't up to recruiting and training a new team.  I see those as two wholly different things, one requiring Oliver to open up to Felicity and be honest with her, the other being a strategic team decision requiring Oliver open up to and trust complete strangers.

And even when he does in 5x02, giving her what she says she needs in that scenario, Felicity is still not ready to talk to him about William and trust issues between them?  Or tell Oliver that she's now in a relationship with Mayo?  The lack of trust at that point is all on Felicity, not Oliver.

There's just no way I can see for it to make sense.

[Morrigan2575]

37 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

David Ramsey is one of those actors who has chemistry with everybody. I mean, he was able to somewhat sell a bond between Digg and Laurel. So when I see Digg with Tinah, I just see the usual easy chemistry he has with most everybody. JH though is really trying hard to sell something. The scenes with them do not call for the slanted, come hither, under the eyelashes looks she keeps throwing Digg and it's starting to bug me and pull me from the scenes. 

I'll be honest i don't see this chemistry between Dig/Dinah. They have Chemistry but, it doesn't comes across as romantic or sexual chemistry. 

I guess that's why I'm not the least bit worried about Dyla breaking up (especially after this episode) or a Dig/Dinah hookup.

[BkWurm1]

37 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

THIS.

And it's okay with me if they never explain it, never, ever mention it again, because there's no way to fanwank it to have it make sense and not have Felicity look silly, in spite of how hard @BkWurm1 is working. 

The Oliver in the flashback was willing to talk to Felicity any time she wants about William and trust.  He also said that he wasn't up to recruiting and training a new team.  I see those as two wholly different things, one requiring Oliver to open up to Felicity and be honest with her, the other being a strategic team decision requiring Oliver open up to and trust complete strangers.

And even when he does in 5x02, giving her what she says she needs in that scenario, Felicity is still not ready to talk to him about William and trust issues between them?  Or tell Oliver that she's now in a relationship with Mayo?  The lack of trust at that point is all on Felicity, not Oliver.

There's just no way I can see for it to make sense.

And I'm still trying, lol!  

I guess I was thinking that it was too little, too late.  And that adding new members was about more than strategic thinking, it was him not listening to her and stubbornly thinking he could just wait the problems out.  That Dig and Thea and Felicity would get past their issues, rather than him doing more soul searching.  

I don't think him not listening about the new recruits was the real problem so when he finally did listen, it didn't solve anything, but it does feel like not listening was a symptom of the bigger problem.  

Or maybe Billy didn't actually happen.  Neither did Susan.  Cause then it's a lot easier to make this work.  Can we just say it retconned them up of existence?  Yes, I know she mentioned Billy when she brought up Helix but that was just her bud down at the cop shop.  Right? Right?  Please?

Edited May 7, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Hiveminder]

36 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

THIS.

And it's okay with me if they never explain it, never, ever mention it again, because there's no way to fanwank it to have it make sense and not have Felicity look silly, in spite of how hard @BkWurm1 is working. 

The Oliver in the flashback was willing to talk to Felicity any time she wants about William and trust.  He also said that he wasn't up to recruiting and training a new team.  I see those as two wholly different things, one requiring Oliver to open up to Felicity and be honest with her, the other being a strategic team decision requiring Oliver open up to and trust complete strangers.

And even when he does in 5x02, giving her what she says she needs in that scenario, Felicity is still not ready to talk to him about William and trust issues between them?  Or tell Oliver that she's now in a relationship with Mayo?  The lack of trust at that point is all on Felicity, not Oliver.

There's just no way I can see for it to make sense.

I think there is a way to read the situation the way the writers seem to want us to, but not without a lot of assumptions, twisty logic, and head canons. It's messy. 

[ComicFan777]

Quote

The Oliver in the flashback was willing to talk to Felicity any time she wants about William and trust.  He also said that he wasn't up to recruiting and training a new team.  I see those as two wholly different things, one requiring Oliver to open up to Felicity and be honest with her, the other being a strategic team decision requiring Oliver open up to and trust complete strangers.

And even when he does in 5x02, giving her what she says she needs in that scenario, Felicity is still not ready to talk to him about William and trust issues between them?  Or tell Oliver that she's now in a relationship with Mayo?  The lack of trust at that point is all on Felicity, not Oliver.

Oliver said that he would be there to talk to her, but at that time, did he know why he didn't trust her?  
Would they have really been able to talk it out right then or accomplish anything if Felicity had been ready to talk?

I get the impression that Oliver didn't understand why he didn't really trust her until maybe 5x18 when Chase tortured him, so I wouldn't think that he was actually ready for the talk to Felicity and give her the answers that she needed in the flashbacks.  

Up until that point, the only reasons he gave people for his actions were because Samantha gave him the ultimatum and to keep William safe.  The underlying reasons turned out to be more complicated than that and had more to do with his overall mental state after everything he's been through - something that sounds like he still needs to work through now.  TBH, I am still very confused about his reasons even now.

Edited May 7, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Midnight Lullaby]

25 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

That's a good point, but she was still having trouble calling him her boyfriend by Christmas, and she didn't tell her friends about him until after Oliver found out through Human Target, who found out from Billy, who thought Oliver already knew. I don't think Felicity not calling him her boyfriend or introducing him to her friends had anything to do with the length of their relationship. It was because he was just a distraction, so I don't think that says anything one way or the other about how long they'd been dating. 

Yeah but I'd find it weird if those two have been dating for almost 7 months and only at that point he starts insisting that she should introduce him to her friends..I think it's more of an issue of the early stages of a relationship..if you want a relationship of course and not just something casual. Obviously Felicity didn't know what she wanted but he did so looking at the way he was acting I don't think that's a guy 6-7 months into something he wants to make into a relationship. (I said 6-7 months counting 4 months of hiatus to get to the Christmas party when he got her to introduce him to her friends)

[insomniadreams88]

The real problem is we don't know enough about Felicity's relationship with Billy for anything they're trying to sell about it to make sense. We don't even know how/when they met/started dating. They spent more time on Susan's job than on Billy because even though they won't say it, he really was all about Oliver. Throwing in these random mentions and trying to tell us Felicity's grieving/joined Helix because she lost him aren't going to suddenly make that true. It just reminds us that they didn't care about him or his relationship with Felicity - because he and it were so obviously temporary - when he was alive. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'm still kind of stuck trying to make sense how not trusting himself led to the big fat lie.

[ComicFan777]

I'm so there with you.

[leopardprint]

1. Oliver lied to Felicity because Samantha coerced him to.

2. Felicity broke up with Oliver because he hid discovering he has a child and never informed her he was sending said child away.

This is all straight forward and doesn't need weird nonsensical explanations about self honesty and PTSD unless you want to absolve your stupid lead of all culpability. 

A sincere, simple apology and some time was all that was needed to fix this. 

I actually really appreciate the attempts to explain the writers' intentions, I just think this was never going to make sense from the jump. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by leopardprint

[Morrigan2575]

5 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

1. Oliver lied to Felicity because Samantha coerced him to.

2. Felicity broke up with Oliver because he hid discovering he has a child and never informed he left he was sending said child away.

This all straight forward and doesn't need weird nonsensical explanations about self delusions and PTSD unless you want to absolve your stupid lead of all culpability. 

A sincere, simple apology and some time was all that was needed to fix this. 

1. MG seemed to change the story later and made Oliver's secret keeping about protecting William.

2. 520 and Felicity's S5 dark arc seemed to use that as the basis of their disagreement. Oliver didn't trust her to keep William safe so he lied and went it alone. Felicity threw her lot in with Helix because she didn't trust Oliver to have her back so, she (didnt) lie but went it "alone".

In the end it was all just stupid manufactured angst to cause a break up (TV 101) so the resolution ended up being stupid manufactured bullshit that doesn't make much sense, IMO.

But, whatever, it's over, time to move on or else I'd go crazy.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Hiveminder]

12 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

1. Oliver lied to Felicity because Samantha coerced him to.

2. Felicity broke up with Oliver because he hid discovering he has a child and never informed he left he was sending said child away.

This all straight forward and doesn't need weird nonsensical explanations about self delusions and PTSD unless you want to absolve your stupid lead of all culpability. 

A sincere, simple apology and some time was all that was needed to fix this. 

I don't think they need weird nonsensical explanations to absolve Oliver of all culpability, and I don't think that's what the show is trying to do. We do need an explanation for the why of it because 'Samantha coerced Oliver' doesn't make sense. And just time and an apology isn't enough to fix it because Felicity is going to want to know that why (because she hates mysteries, for one), and she's going to need to know that Oliver is at least working on the issue so that this kind of thing doesn't keep happening. 

I just reread that and realized that it might look like I'm supporting what the show has done over the last season and a half or so. I'm not. I think I get what they were trying to do, but their execution was flawed. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Hiveminder

[Midnight Lullaby]

49 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I'm still kind of stuck trying to make sense how not trusting himself led to the big fat lie.

I think the not trusting himself part is the explanation for his inability to be a real partner and they are lucky they made that Felicity's problem last season and not the fact that he was sneaking around behind her back and lying for months. When Oliver has a problem he tries to hide it (because he thinks people might give up on him if they see all of him?) so what Felicity was saying imo was that she was sorry for judging him for not being able to be a real partner now that she understood he can't because he has issues he developed after his trauma..she was 100% right to break up with him last year but she was the bigger person in that scene and I don't know how many people that got hurt like that and had abandonment issues would have been that understanding so I can appreciate her and that scene for that. But seriously would have killed the writers to have him recognize he was at fault and not just nodding and thanking her like he was a victim of the events and didn't make choices that ruined their relationship? Whatever.

The part they won't ever be able to explain is the months of lying because they didn't make sense, they were just there for drama. Horrible writing. If they wanted to give a deeper meaning to all of that they could have showed that Samantha took advantage of Oliver's vulnerability making him believe he didn't have a right to meet his son or to ask her why he couldn't tell the people in his life. But that would be taking it way too far imo and also they keep acting like Samantha is a saint so it can't work. And we can't say Oliver believed he was keeping his kid safe when Malcolm threatened him. Oliver makes dumb choices at times but he is not that dumb (unless the plot calls for it).

Edited May 7, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[leopardprint]

31 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

We do need an explanation for the why of it because 'Samantha coerced Oliver' doesn't make sense. And just time and an apology isn't enough to fix it because Felicity is going to want to know that why (because she hates mysteries, for one), and she's going to need to know that Oliver is at least working on the issue so that this kind of thing doesn't keep happening. 

But that is why he lied to Felicity, because Samantha made him, do you think he still wouldn't have told her if Samantha hadn't brought it up?

Now I agree that it's a completely stupid and totally nonsensical reason but it is a reason. 

I think an apology for lying because he was afraid to lose Felicity and William and antagonize Samantha would have gone a long way, at least for me as a viewer. 

29 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

But seriously would have killed the writers to have him recognize he was at fault and not just nodding and thanking her like he was a victim of the events and didn't make choices that ruined their relationship? Whatever.

Yes, I think this is why I can't just put it behind me and enjoy the heart eyes, because they are presenting Oliver as if he is somehow the main victim here just like they did in the Billy situation. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by leopardprint

[GHScorpiosRule]

The whole excuse Oliver lied because Samantha "forced" him to, is BEYOND LAME, not to mention INSULTING. First, she no longer lived in Star City; she wasn't there in Oliver's presence 24/7 to hold a gun to his head to enforce her ultimatum; and unless she was tech savvy (which we know she wasn't and stupid on top of it all), and put a camera on him, how would she even know if Oliver told Felicity? She would have kept quiet if he'd just been honest and told her and asked her not to say anything.

But, it's all moot now. Aand we're still stuck with both her and the idiot William. 

[Hiveminder]

44 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

But that is why he lied to Felicity, because Samantha made him, do you think he still wouldn't have told her if Samantha hadn't brought it up?

Now I agree that it's a completely stupid and totally nonsensical reason but it is a reason. 

I think an apology for lying because he was afraid to lose Felicity and William and antagonize Samantha would have gone a long way, at least for me as a viewer.

First and foremost, I think he lied because of plot. Any other explanation is just something the writers came up with to cover their tracks or something we come up with so we can watch this show without going crazy. So, with that in mind, yes. Oliver was always going to keep William a secret because that's what the show needed him to do. 

If he'd been written with some attention to...well, let's just say common sense, then Oliver would have absolutely told Felicity. But, as far as I can make sense of what actually happened, Oliver was all set to tell Felicity until Barry and Samantha both threw a kink into things, and then his multitude of issues reared their ugly heads and he didn't tell her. So, in my mind, Samantha's demand wasn't the reason he didn't tell Felicity. It (and that asshole, Barry) was just the event that gave that part of him that hates himself an opening to start fucking things up again. 

In terms of an apology, I think the viewers might need that more than Felicity. We haven't seen her ask for an apology, just an explanation. I personally don't care if he ever apologizes because I have very little use for apologies myself. Where other people want an apology I just want an acknowledgement that the other person knows what and how they screwed up (which I think the show has shown that Oliver does know that what he did was wrong) and some kind of assurance that it won't happen again (which I think Felicity feels is tied to understanding why Oliver lied). I'm sorry is just words. 

[AudienceofOne]

44 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

First and foremost, I think he lied because of plot.

Classic 'because it was in the script' motivation.

I was pissed off with Barry in that scenario too because Felicity is supposed to be his friend and he was fine going, "You must keep her in this relationship with a lie". Anyone would think Barry was raised by Joe.

[ComicFan777]

I thought Barry told Oliver to tell Felicity the truth at the end of the episode...maybe I'm remembering wrong.

[AudienceofOne]

You could be right. I haven't rewatched any of that season because of the awful. 

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, AudienceofOne said:

You could be right. I haven't rewatched any of that season because of the awful. 

I can't watch s4 again.  I couldn't even enjoy 4A because I knew what was coming! 

[ComicFan777]

This is how I understood what Barry said:
In the first timeline, Felicity found out about Oliver's son.
Barry implied that the timeline will find a way to correct itself - Felicity will find out somehow - best case scenario would have been from Oliver.

I can see how it could be interpreted the other way, too, though.  Either preserve the lie or preserve Felicity finding out.

I do remember being pissed at Barry for telling Oliver that he thinks they broke up because Felicity found out about William, without really knowing what their fight was about or if they really broke up.

Edited May 8, 2017 by ComicFan777

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, ComicFan777 said:

This is how I understood what Barry said:
In the first timeline, Felicity found out about Oliver's son.
Barry implied that the timeline will find a way to correct itself - Felicity will find out somehow - best case scenario would have been from Oliver.

I can see how it could be interpreted the other way, too, though.  Either preserve the lie or preserve Felicity finding out.

I do remember being pissed at Barry for telling Oliver that he thinks they broke up because Felicity found out about William, without really knowing what their fight was about or if they really broke up.

As someone who adores Barry, I was peeved and irritated at his line to Oliver about how it was important for a kid to have his father in his life-and cited that although he had Joe, he had his own father taken from him. I think that and PLOT, decided Oliver in not telling Felicity about a William and thinking he had to be a part of William's life. Seriously, we didn't see or weren't shown that William's life was the worse for not having his father in his life.?

[JamieLynn832002]

7 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

As someone who adores Barry, I was peeved and irritated at his line to Oliver about how it was important for a kid to have his father in his life-and cited that although he had Joe, he had his own father taken from him. I think that and PLOT, decided Oliver in not telling Felicity about a William and thinking he had to be a part of William's life. Seriously, we didn't see or weren't shown that William's life was the worse for not having his father in his life.?

And William never even knew Oliver was his father so I don't see how it counts as having his father in his life. As far as William was concerned, Oliver was just a random "friend of Mommy's" who hung out with him in his bedroom which I think would probably be kind of weird/confusing and not particularly beneficial.

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

And William never even knew Oliver was his father so I don't see how it counts as having his father in his life. As far as William was concerned, Oliver was just a random "friend of Mommy's" who hung out with him in his bedroom which I think would probably be kind of weird/confusing and not particularly beneficial.

And probably is what leads to scenes like the last one in 520 where a strange man approaches him on the street, calls him by his real name and William just stands there and talks to him.

Edited May 8, 2017 by insomniadreams88

[statsgirl]

Barry can never have enough father figures in his life.

What was especially frustrating is that Felicity is the only person on either Arrow or The Flash who has real personal knowledge of what it's like to grow up without a father in her life. She should have had a say.

Samantha really blew it with "a friend of Mommy's".  How many friends of Mommy's did she introduce William to?

[leopardprint]

38 minutes ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

As far as William was concerned, Oliver was just a random "friend of Mommy's" who hung out with him in his bedroom which I think would probably be kind of weird/confusing and not particularly beneficial.

OMG, William and Samantha are in a terrible Lifetime movie, no wonder nothing about them fits into Arrow. 

18 MINUTES AGO, STATSGIRL SAID:

What was especially frustrating is that Felicity is the only person on either Arrow or The Flash who has real personal knowledge of what it's like to grow up without a father in her life. She should have had a say.

It just occurred to me that of all the people that gave advice on the William thing, the two most important people in his life, he didn't listen to (Diggle) or didn't consult (Felicity). Nice, Oliver. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by leopardprint

[Midnight Lullaby]

4 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

And probably is what leads to scenes like the last one in 520 where a strange man approaches him on the street, calls him by his real name and William just stands there and talks to him.

Yup. Mothers all over the world try to teach their kids stranger danger and she sent a man to her child's bedroom to introduce himself as her friend. She wasn't even there! Great parenting, LOL.

7 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Classic 'because it was in the script' motivation.

I was pissed off with Barry in that scenario too because Felicity is supposed to be his friend and he was fine going, "You must keep her in this relationship with a lie". Anyone would think Barry was raised by Joe.

Barry told Oliver to tell Felicity..I don't remember the exact words but I remember Oliver replying that what he was doing with his girlfriend wasn't Barry's business..

I know people were mad at Barry because they were saying what Barry said made Oliver think Felicity broke up with him because he has a son in the erased TL but that's not show canon since the writers never said Oliver was afraid of Felicity finding out and we can't even know if Oliver thought that was the reason for the break up or knowing Felicity he knew it wasn't just the fact of having a son the problem..

[leopardprint]

Felicity told him in 415 that it wasn't that he had a kid and then in 520 when Curtis made that crack and she said William was symptomatic of a larger problem. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

Yeah, but the point was if Oliver could have believed that was the problem or not before Felicity told him it wasn't..if it could have been a fear of his or if he knew better than to think that. But it's something the writers never brought up..

[Sunshine]

I hope the followers of Stephen Amell's feet (per MG tumblr question) enjoyed this episode. :)