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S05.E09: IHOP


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4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

But she has also had months to stew in her loneliness which could in all honestly have made her both smart and ruthless.  What she isn't is "connected."  If she ever met someone who was....say Oleg,  there is no telling what she might do at this point in the game.    

What exactly would she do with Oleg? I mean, he's connected the same way Volodya and Galina are connected--he's KGB. The one person they have in common is Stan, so I guess if they had anything to do with each other it would have to come down with Oleg searching out the FBI secretary he helped extract for some reason, but I don't know what that reason would be. If it's Martha vs. the KGB on the KGB's home turf it seems unlikely she'd pull something off. She's not the only person in her situation living in Moscow, presumably.

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I am starting to think Gabriel will turn on Motherland and either defect to the USA or help Martha and/or mischa defect.  

I mean he just as alone as Martha.  And he got professional and personal reason hate the Soviet communist systems.  

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20 minutes ago, White Sheep said:

I am starting to think Gabriel will turn on Motherland and either defect to the USA or help Martha and/or mischa defect.  

Helping Martha defect would be turning in Philip and Elizabeth, who are pretty much his family. We don't know if Mischa wants to defect, but if he sent him to Philip that, too, could be blowing his cover.

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If anyone defects to the United States I think it will be Oleg and he will do it to protect his parents.  He will end up cooperating with the CIA/FBI for passage for his mother and possibly his father.

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Henry:  Many seasons ago there was an episode where young Henry broke into a neighbor's home and just watched TV on their couch.  Nothing was really made about Henry's odd behavior.  In the past couple of episodes Henry is now a maths whiz and the possibility of him going to boarding school.   Does anyone think that Henry's bizarre past behavior will resurface or are the writers just getting ready to write Henry out of the  show?

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Has Elizabeth ever looked colder or more deadly than when she confronted Tuan?  Keri Russell brings it every week.

Martha.  She always used to look so nice.

Ironically, Paige's absence only reminded me just how much I really can't stand her.

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8 hours ago, CASinCHI said:

Henry:  Many seasons ago there was an episode where young Henry broke into a neighbor's home and just watched TV on their couch.  Nothing was really made about Henry's odd behavior.  In the past couple of episodes Henry is now a maths whiz and the possibility of him going to boarding school.   Does anyone think that Henry's bizarre past behavior will resurface or are the writers just getting ready to write Henry out of the  show?

There was nothing bizarre about that behavior. Henry wasn't breaking in to watch TV he was breaking in to play their Intellivision. His dad didn't buy it for him so when he saw the neighbors going on vacation and knew they had it he figured he'd break in and use theirs since it was just sitting there.

Many people read this as Henry "acting out" for attention but I thought that was giving Henry too much credit. His parents were at home, even trying to talk to him the first time he did it. He just saw something he wanted and a way to get it and did it.

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When I think about the recent revelation regarding Henry's deep smarts, along with his noted absence on so many occasions, it makes me wonder: does Henry know more than we have always assumed? What if the big twist at the end of the season is that Henry knows exactly what his parents do? What if that is designed to add serious tension to the next and final season? Either the show-runners have kind of not known what to do with the Henry character (which would be a rare misstep for them), or he was always - or for some time now, anyway - designed to be a major plot turner that no one saw coming?

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I think Martha must be under surveillance, if not constant, then more frequent (and secret) than her 2 regular  visitors. She saw Philip without disguise, she could give the most accurate portrait of him, and she also met Elizabeth and Gabriel. She might also remember the adress of the house were she was kept hidden. Philip is clearly a very good agent, the KGB spent time and money training him, which is why so far he's gotten warnings to be careful rather than being eliminated at the mere suggestion that he was getting too comfortable in America. But with those precedents, if he were to be caught by the FBI, along with his kids? they must consider there's a high chance he could turn. So if Martha were to go off the grid in Moscow, I think the Centre would pull the Jennigs out of the USA in a hot minute, no if or buts or "lets see what happens" like when William was caught.

I think Martha's best shot at not ending up in federal prison was when she first figured something was iffy with Clark's story. Can't remember if it was around the time she destroyed that recording device or if that came much later. If she had talked then, she might have been able to turn things around. Now, all she can offer is info but that might not be good enough or fast enough to catch anyone.

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(edited)

It seems really pointless to write Henry out and off to boarding school where the show only has about dozen episodes left.

Also...Kimmy's 17 now. That's legal in most states. Get it, Phil!

Edited by methodwriter85
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2 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

It seems really pointless to write Henry out and off to boarding school where the show only has about dozen episodes left.

Also...Kimmy's 17 now. That's legal in most states. Get it, Phil!

I didn't realize the series is ending until I saw your comment.

How can it end?   Nothing's happened yet!

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On 5/4/2017 at 10:52 AM, RedHawk said:

Yes, remember when Oleg's room was being searched how tense his mother was when Oleg was with her and not observing the search. She said, "They can find something even if it's not there." She may have gone to prison on completely false charges.

Also, after the search party left Oleg's dad was ready to make some calls, and he apparently had the power or thought he had the power to put a stop to the investigation, but Oleg told him not to. That had to tip his dad off that Oleg is in some way "guilty," and lucky that nothing had been found at that time.

I need to watch the scene with the priest again. I expect it to be very important later on.

I may have been reading much more into this than there is but my impression when Oleg's mother was describing her prison experience is that many spouses were held in prison on trumped up charges as essentially hostages.  I assumed this was to ensure the other spouses loyalty or to get them to do things for the state that they might not want to do.  I am thinking that she was in prison, indirectly, because of him and he feels guilty over that.  I also assume that he did whatever they demanded of him in such a manner that he was "rewarded" with a plum job at the end of it and his wife was released.

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On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 4:49 PM, Chaos Theory said:

Right now Martha is truly alone in a country where she doesn't speak the language.  She has two people who come to visit her as part of their job.   They probably spend a couple hours with her a couple times a week.  For the most part she is truly alone.    Which for Martha is a fate worse then anything the United States could have done to her.  Martha was alone and lonely before Clarke found her and now she is alone and lonely again.  She has probably spent all her time going over every detail of her relationship with Clarke and every moment he screwed her over.

If she did go back even if she gave them nothing she would be in an American prison surrounded by criminals yes but by people who she can at least communicate with and hopefully gets visits from her parents.

That is among the worst cases.

if she was especially pissed off she could tell the FBI everything she knows and get herself s pretty good deal.  She may not know who Clarke really is but she could give the FBI enough information to get them closer to Philip.

... 

There is a reason for the expression "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."

And who has been more scorned then Martha?  

This.

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(edited)
9 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

It seems really pointless to write Henry out and off to boarding school where the show only has about dozen episodes left.

 

Right, which is why there's no reason to think he's being written off. If Henry gets into the boarding school he wouldn't leave until Fall in the show's time. Plenty of time for things to happen between now and then, assuming that he even wound up going. Henry's announcement that he wants to go is the important thing.

Edited by sistermagpie
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On 5/5/2017 at 10:38 PM, shura said:

Oleg is the older one. His dad said "Your mother got out... We had you, then Zhenya" in this episode. 

You know, I am not sure it's even possible to use a biological weapon defensively. You can't really deploy it against invaders in your territory because it will start killing your own population. I have no idea what Philip meant when he said "maybe it wasn't about protecting us after a nuclear attack." Who, and for what,  is going to send into a nuclear wasteland troops that can be fought off with bioweapons? And if we think that a defensive bioweapon is something kept for deterrence, that still implies willingness to use it against the enemy in the enemy's territory, which is hardly defensive when it comes to it.

"Mr. Jennings, please, I told you we can only reimburse mileage for one car trip to Harrisburg. Please don't submit more than one even if you used three cars." True story - my colleague once had to explain to our finance person that no, Naked Juice is not an adult movie, but a drink he bought during a business trip and would like reimbursed.

You need to read the link posted by @sistermagpie over in the

thread.  The former head of the that program explains how they were motivated to product biological weapons, and how they were intended to be used.

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While I like Oleg and think that Costa Ronin is terrific, I agree with the recap/story that the Oleg storyline is draaagggging and booooring.  It's reminding me of Nina in Russia, which had nothing to do with what was going on in the US.  The sooner we get Oleg back involved in something related to the US storylines the happier I'll be.

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This show is not known for doing big time jumps, and since Paige's and Oleg's storylines are moving at a snail's pace it would be jarring if things were moving much faster next season. So it's a shame there's only a season left, because and I'd have liked to have seen how the Jennings would have reacted to what came in the late 80's: perestroika, the glasnost, and eventually the dissolution of the USSR.  What was it like for spies like them around that time.

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38 minutes ago, minamurray78 said:

This show is not known for doing big time jumps, and since Paige's and Oleg's storylines are moving at a snail's pace it would be jarring if things were moving much faster next season. So it's a shame there's only a season left, because and I'd have liked to have seen how the Jennings would have reacted to what came in the late 80's: perestroika, the glasnost, and eventually the dissolution of the USSR.  What was it like for spies like them around that time.

I feel like we are all waiting for this.  Particularly, how would a fanatic like Elizabeth handle everything she has devoted her life to, falling apart in such a spectacular manner?  I think Phillip would be grim, but not particularly surprised.

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5 hours ago, minamurray78 said:

So it's a shame there's only a season left, because and I'd have liked to have seen how the Jennings would have reacted to what came in the late 80's: perestroika, the glasnost, and eventually the dissolution of the USSR.  What was it like for spies like them around that time.

I would have loved to see everyone watching the Berlin Wall fall down. I'd have liked to see where/how Oleg landed after the dissolution of the USSR. Would he be part of the new KGB or in a different part of government, or would he leave government for something else?

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(edited)

While I don't think there will be consistently advancing time jumps next season (that would be too jarring based on the show's history), I could see one - sort of post-script - where we get to see P+E's reaction to the tectonic events of the latter 80s -- perhaps the fall of the wall being the focal-point. 

Edited by Bretton
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On 5/3/2017 at 1:03 AM, Moose135 said:

He never came home that night.  When she got home, she told Phillip that she waited until 3am and he didn't show up.

Yes, true.  But, I thought she would have questioned him when she and P had him against the wall questioning him about the IHOP trip.  He would have had to squirm through this explanation, as well.  It might have given P and E a better sense of whether he was telling the truth at all.

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This was my favorite episode of the season. Finally held my attention. The Martha/Gabriel scene was riveting and I was intrigued with the Tuan situation. Best part: no Paige. 

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(edited)

So now they're shipping Henry off to private school? When I watched this the other day, I thought it was a convenient way to get rid of him, for whatever reason, since he wasn't around for a while, and it was all Paige, all the time. But from his description of the school, and the career opportunities, he could have access to the children of people who hold important positions in the country, right? I hadn't thought of that before. Just thinking of those who thought he had been contacted privately by the Russians, and was the one they really wanted. If he really just wants to go for the reasons he gave, good for him. 

Martha. :( It was nice of Gabriel to check on her, but I understand her asking him to not go back. 

Oh! and Kimmy, too. That was her name, wasn't it? 

Edited by Anela
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For some reason the scene with Philip and Elizabeth confronting Tuan made me laugh. Philip and Elizabeth reminded me of Will Farrell and Kristin Wiig. (SNL), probably because of their outfits and their over-the-top threatening behavior.

Is it know where Tuan came from? (and I don't mean Vietnam).  How old is he and how did he get involved in working with Philip and Elizabeth?  Did he just "disappear" from the family with the sick kid in Seattle?

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On May 12, 2017 at 0:25 PM, CASinCHI said:

For some reason the scene with Philip and Elizabeth confronting Tuan made me laugh. Philip and Elizabeth reminded me of Will Farrell and Kristin Wiig. (SNL), probably because of their outfits and their over-the-top threatening behavior.

Is it know where Tuan came from? (and I don't mean Vietnam).  How old is he and how did he get involved in working with Philip and Elizabeth?  Did he just "disappear" from the family with the sick kid in Seattle?

Yeah, I didn't really get the backstory on Tuan.  Perhaps he came to the US, then ended up in foster care somehow (sometimes adoptions don't work out, especially with a traumatized child) and then this family moved to Seattle and left him behind to go back into the foster system or he was an adult by then?  And somewhere along the way he was recruited and Philip and Elizabeth pretend to be his guardians?

Before this episode, I had it in my head that Tuan was a twenty-something spy pretending to be a teenager.  

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On ‎3‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 6:38 AM, Erin9 said:

I can't believe Wolfe is still giving Stan an option about the tape. What kind of boss is he? Speaking of, I like Oleg. I admire that Stan doesn't want to screw him. But I hated him at Gaad's wife's home. He was basically asking her and- and through her- Gaad's permission to not look into his death. What a bastard. How dare he come to her home with that. Especially when she pointed out how thoughtful the FBI had been post Gaad's death. (Loads of sarcasm there.) Loved her shutting Stan down by saying Gaad would want revenge. I think he would too. And he deserves some form of justice. His life was worth something too. 

How can a Buddhist - or a Christian, for that matter - want a revenge? Besides, revenge hits back as we have seen.

Before all, decisions about intelligence operations should be taken on the basis of need. And, as sorry it is to say, Oleg could in time become a needful source, although he isn't that not in his current job. 

Maybe KGB doesn't suspect Oleg but wants to continue the operation with Stan and needs his help?    

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On ‎4‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 5:52 PM, RedHawk said:

Yes, remember when Oleg's room was being searched how tense his mother was when Oleg was with her and not observing the search. She said, "They can find something even if it's not there." She may have gone to prison on completely false charges.

In Stalin's time they have no need to find evidence since (almost) all confessed and that was enough.

It seems now that Oleg's mom wasn't imprisoned for her husband. Yet, five years for "sabotage" seems a little, so she wasn't charged (for f.ex.) wrecking the machine in the factory (in order to hide that it was bad anyway). 

I understood that Oleg was two when his mom was imprisoned but now his father said that he and his brother were born afterwards. So Oleg is born in late 50ies.  

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On ‎4‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 4:39 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I was a little curious about the conversation that Oleg had with his dad about his mom's imprisonment.  Yes, I suppose it was the kind of thing that you don't want to broadcast, but, I found his  father's comment rather odd.  When Oleg asked him why his dad never told him about it, he said that so Oleg could have the life that he was given.  What does that mean? How would having that knowledge, say, after he turned 18 years old, really deprive him of his education, status, comfort, etc.?  The dialogue from his dad during that conversation just seemed odd to me AS does the who story.  I don't get why a man's wife is taken to prison and a few years alter, he become Minister of Transportation.  Either he was a higher up when she was taken to prison OR he rose in status AFTER she was released from prison.  WHICH IS IT?  I find either scenario odd.  

The dialogue wasn't odd at all. Oleg's parents' motive was probably just the same as many people who have suffered because of war or atroticies: our children must have a happy life, therefore I don't tell them about our sufferings. And it eveidently worked in Oleg's case, although many children understood only as adults "that's why my father was violent/depressed/demanded that I should never complain but be always happy".

Of course, as a Communist and a member of nomenkaltura Oleg's dad had also another motive: if he wanted to raise his sons to good Soviet citizens who would have a good careers, it wouldn't have been unwise to give them ideas that that the Soviet state had done wrongly towards their mom as they would give them a reason to become dissidenters.  (I noticed only now that Umbelina said that before.) 

On ‎4‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 5:07 PM, clb1016 said:

You raise an interesting question.  My theory has been that Oleg's mother and other women in the camps were used for sex by the guards and whatever Soviet bigwigs were in the vicinity, based on her saying "I did what I had to do" and the father saying that a lot of men divorced their wives after they got home from the camps while he stayed married to her.  That doesn't seem like a good reason or him to be rewarded with his ministerial status, however, so I'm probably wrong (not for the first or last time).

Oleg's mom must have been a beutiful woman, so it would have been very unwise from her to sleep with guards without distinction as that would have given her very little. Instead, if someone with a higher status in the camp chose her as his mistress, then she would have a priviledged status.

I don't think Oleg's dad meant this (although most Soviet men had different sexual moral standards to themselves and their wives) but like he said, after five years apart, his wife wasn't the same person he had known - just as people returning from war weren't same persons their spouses had known. 

Besides, most people divorced at once when their spouses (or parents) was imprisoned simply to take distance from them for political reasons. Oleg's dad didn't do this which shows that he really loved his wife and put her before the party and his career.  

Edited by Roseanna
Sentence with italics added.
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On ‎3‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 8:31 AM, MissBluxom said:

I got the idea the scene with Martha was preparing us for the end of the show.

The KGB has destroyed Martha's life. How much different would it have been to have put a bullet in her brain?

I think that scene is designed to prepare us for the end when P & E are discovered and imprisoned and many of the other members of her org are all put away forever. Of course, I could easily be wrong about that. But the scene provides good justification for the destruction of the "Directorate S" program in American and prevent many of the audience to object about that.

KGB didn't destroy Martha's life. She had options and made choices. 

Before all, I find it odd that P&E should be penalized just for Martha as they have done much worse. Just as Stan who "destroyed Nina's life" and killed Vlad for personal revenge. 

Espionage is one of the oldest professions. It will never end. 

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On ‎5‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 8:45 AM, Gella said:

I still don't understand why Martha is so lonely and bitter. I mean it's not like she was sent to some hamlet in Siberia. Moscow was a big city. And frankly after what she did she didn't really have many options. At first she was duped into helping Phillip but later on she helped him quite willingly. The fact that she survived at all is miraculous. She has to realise on some level that some of it was of her own doing.

 

On ‎5‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 10:41 PM, Tetraneutron said:

She DOES realize that, which is partly why she's so beaten down. That she's somewhat responsible for the shitshow that is her life. The fact that she's in Moscow doesn't matter. First, it's the collapse of the Soviet Union and the place is shit unless you're very rich or well-connected. And it's not like she'd be permitted to live the life of a tourist, visiting museums, meeting other expats, living a life. Even now, Russia is very restrictive on what they let foreign residents do, back in the early 80s it would be a million times worse. The Center isn't running a cultural exchange program. Probably the reverse, in fact - do you think the USSR leadership wants this former American talking to Soviet citizens about how much she hates Russia and how great her life was when she could shop ay big supermarkets and see movies and travel? We saw this in the first season - they offer defectors just enough money to live off, language lessons, and eventually maybe a McJob where they can't cause trouble or influence anyone. 

Gabriel is visiting her not because he likes her. He doesn't care about her. To Gabriel, she's the dumb gullible American Philip was able to bang into betraying her country, who then went crazy. He's visiting her because Philip asked him and he has nothing better to do.

I agree with Tetraneutron that the reason Martha is so bitter because she had realized the truth and her own gullibility. 

But nobody knows that in 1984 that the Soviet Union would collapse in 1991, nor even about perestroika and glaznost.  So Martha believes that she will be in Moscow for the rest of her life. And there I agree with Gella; she is at least alive and not in prison.

I find comparisons in many comments about her standard of life in the US and Moscow hilarous but also beside the point. As hard and lonely Martha's life is, she is much better off than millions refugees. Many of them have lost much more.

Martha has better to decide not to look back but make the best of her life.    

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On ‎4‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 5:34 PM, curbcrusher said:

I don't really have a problem with this. The first thing to remember is that in a totalitarian environment people to go to prison not only because they break the law, but for a variety of other reasons as well. For instance Oleg's dad could have been an up and coming party member that some how offended a more powerful member of a different faction, and his wife was arrested and sent away to make a point. At some future date, Oleg's dad's faction asserts itself, or maybe the offended party dies, or Oleg's dad changes sides for some reason and Oleg's mom is released. For Oleg (and most likely his brother) to have this information growing up, or even as young adults, would impact the way they interact with others,  especially if Oleg's dad changed allegiances at some point (say the guy Oleg thinks of as Uncle Borov that helped him get into the KGB is the one that exerted pressure on his dad by sending mom to prison). It's best for you kid not to ever know that, so you don't tell them.

I don't believe in this theory. There were no "factions" inside the party after the great purges in the 30ies.  And even then "changing sides" didn't help even Stalin's nearest men.  Besides, Stalin's last purges were directed against the cosmopolitans, i.e. the Jews.

Before all, as I have said before, Oleg's dad was too young to have a top position, so that his wife would be sentenced because of him.  

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8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I find comparisons in many comments about her standard of life in the US and Moscow hilarous but also beside the point. As hard and lonely Martha's life is, she is much better off than millions refugees. Many of them have lost much more.

 

That's what I always think too. In terms of creature comforts she's far better off than "Clark" was as a child. He had the advantage of being familiar with the country and speaking the language and loving his family, but Martha can learn about the country and the language and make connections with people. She's even got people helping her to do that. Of course her circumstances are incredibly hard, but they're not hopeless. And people in the US with all the advantages that she lacks are sometimes more miserable and feel more hopeless than she does. There's some people in the US who show up with far less than Martha has. 

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I understood that Oleg was two when his mom was imprisoned but now his father said that he and his brother were born afterwards. So Oleg is born in late 50ies.  

Gotta say, Oleg does not at all seem like he's young enough to have been born in the late 50s. On one hand it brings something to his character to think of him as a very young man just getting to understand the world. Otoh it's interesting that he and Stan seem so much like contemporaries when they interact.

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When Stan asked Gaad's wife whether Gaad talked to her about the work secrets which he shouldn't and she admitted it, I believed that Stan would next ask whether she had talked to anybody about their journey to Thailand, and if she had said no, Stan would have made a conclusion that maybe his words to Philip would have somehow led to Gaad's killing, not necessarily that Philip was a Soviet spy but that he had told  about the Gaad's journey to somebody without knowing that he was. Although that was only one possibility: if Gaad was traveling with his own passport, the informant could be among the personal of the flying Company or the hotel.

I don't even now understand why on earth the thugs came to Gaad's hotel room. It simply wasn't an intelligent way to recruit an agent. And Gaad was retired, so his usefulness would soon be passé.  (Of course, The Center has also in other situations behaved in a stupid way, but the writers surely had some intelligent idea why they got Gaad killed.  

The only explanation I can invent that the thugs only wanted some specific information. What could it be? Whether the FBI has recruited someone inside the Soviet ambassy? Whether they suspect any American to be a Soviet spy? 

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On ‎3‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 7:58 PM, MissBluxom said:

So, maybe both these story lines are preparing us for the end of the show where both the USA and USSR's spies are arrested or killed or imprisoned for life. Maybe they are designed to prepare us so that we don't really care if terrible things happen to these people because of all the terrible things that have happened to other innocent victims as a result of the "work" they do?

But I care! Whatever P&E have done, they are only tools that others (not even Claudia and Gabriel but higher up) have used and manipulated with the help of their weaknesses created by their past.    

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Still about Martha: although she is lonely, depressed and bitter, I don't see her mental state as hopeless because she still manages her basic needs like eating.

However, such recommadations like, after learning the language, get a job, friends and a man, only the first is good. Martha must realize that any friend or man she meets can be arranged for her by KGB which rules out any real confidence and nearness. Or, if she happened to meet and become a friend with a dissident, she would be demanded to inform on her/him. 

That doesn't mean she shouldn't socialize with people if she remembers to be careful not to trust them - at least too easily. That shouldn't be too difficult: as we have seen, Martha could keep secrets for a long time,

What I would suggest to her is to study the Soviet society as if she were an anthropology. F.ex. instead of blaming the small selection in the shops (well, she didn't actually do it but many here did), she could study how the Soviet people use the connections to get what they need.

In short, Martha should decide that it's useless to look back and become interested in other things than her own fate.

Although she doesn't know it, it will only a year when the Soviet Union becomes to change. But one doesn't really understand it, if one doesn't get to know how the circumstances are now. 

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