S12.E17: The British Invasion

[bearcatfan]

Just now, ZennyKenny said:

That said, I was really happy that Eileen was back! So that's something that I enjoyed about the episode. But again... afraid to get too attached cos I'm like 87% sure they're just going to kill her off.

I liked Eileen last year too and it makes sense that's she more attached to Sam as she interacted with him more last year. He also knows some sign. I took a class in college too and don't remember that much. I can ask for jelly. Not sure how far that would get me. Oh, and I can sign a verse of "I'll Be Seeing You."

Yeah, I'm afraid they are going to kill her off too but maybe with her going to Ireland she can live to hunt another day!

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think it would be hypocritical for either one of them to get upset over that.  Sam slept with a demon.  Dean slept with an Amazon.  They've both had numerous one night stands.  Sex is not an emotional commitment to either of them.

Dean wouldn't care that Mary was getting some. It's a matter of WHOM she's getting it from that he would take issue. As to Dean and the Amazon, he had no idea she was the Amazon until well after the fact.  I'd say he paid a heavy price for that mistake. He literally had a monster baby that Sam killed. 

[ZennyKenny]

6 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

I took a class in college too and don't remember that much. I can ask for jelly. Not sure how far that would get me. Oh, and I can sign a verse of "I'll Be Seeing You."

Haha, I can ask for an apple and then say thank you, that's about it.

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Haha, I can ask for an apple and then say thank you, that's about it.

So, between the 2 of you, you can have apple jelly:)

[MysteryGuest]

The episode was a mixed bag for me.  I liked seeing Eileen again, so that was cool.  I always like when they interact with other hunters, which they've done quite a bit this season.  I'm thinking we'll see more before the season is done, considering the BMOL's plans.

I was genuinely surprised when Mick was killed.  I suppose I should have seen it coming when we got his whole back story, but I honestly just thought they were showing us that to continue humanizing him a bit for us.  Obviously, I took the bait.

The evil factor of the BMOL is being ramped up to ridiculous proportions, but I guess they don't want there to be any gray area where they're concerned.  Mick might have been weak enough to let his humanity come through, but the rest of them won't be.

I just can't with Lucifer anymore, so that does make a good portion of the episode unwatchable for me.  

[bearcatfan]

13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

The episode was a mixed bag for me.  I liked seeing Eileen again, so that was cool.  I always like when they interact with other hunters, which they've done quite a bit this season.  I'm thinking we'll see more before the season is done, considering the BMOL's plans.

I was genuinely surprised when Mick was killed.  I suppose I should have seen it coming when we got his whole back story, but I honestly just thought they were showing us that to continue humanizing him a bit for us.  Obviously, I took the bait.

The evil factor of the BMOL is being ramped up to ridiculous proportions, but I guess they don't want there to be any gray area where they're concerned.  Mick might have been weak enough to let his humanity come through, but the rest of them won't be.

I just can't with Lucifer anymore, so that does make a good portion of the episode unwatchable for me.  

I figured Mick was going to die but I didn't think he would die now. I figured that would happen a few episodes from now.

Some people thought that the writers were saying the BMoL were the good guys so I guess this was needed to show that they were definitely not saying that!

I'm over Lucifer now too. I was OK with him for a large part of the season but last night, I didn't care.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Some people thought that the writers were saying the BMoL were the good guys so I guess this was needed to show that they were definitely not saying that

Fans are always going to interpret certain things differently. IMO making the BMoL and the Winchesters even lightweight allies, is what started ME personally wondering what message the BMOL was trying to send.

I don't think the writers actually write in response to fan feedback on a week to week basis.  It's good that they've finally gotten to the part in their storytelling that clarifies exactly how shitty the organization as a whole is vs the notion that there were only "Rogue" members doing shady stuff. 

Edited April 8, 2017 by catrox14

[SherriAnt]

I feel like the BMOL are based entirely on the Covenant of St. George from Seanan McGuire's Incryptid book series, and she did it way better. I'm done until they are too.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Wow, I can't believe they actually killed Mick off.  That was a "Holy Shit" out loud - LOUDLY out loud - moment for me.  I stayed off the boards since yesterday early evening so I wouldn't be too spoiled.  It worked!  Lol.  Maybe some people expected it, but I was truly shocked.  Other notes:

• Loved all the Sam and Eileen interaction.  They are both just cute as buttons...if buttons are cute.  (Personally, they tend to be more utilitarian for me, but I guess there are cute buttons out there - named Sam and Eileen, of course.)  
• Dean was smoking hot when he grabbed Kelly by the arm outside the clinic and if that had been me, I would have melted into a puddle right then.  
• Mary and Sketch - just ew.  I need to think of Sam being all cute and shy/flirty to scrub that scene from my brain.  
• So NO mother survives nephilim childbirth?  You'd think the angels would know this and it would have been something Cas could have used to convince Kelly to terminate the pregnancy.   Hm.  
• When Kendricks was mentioned in an earlier episode and Sam was all "Hogwarts?" I didn't think they'd be so on the nose about it.  I'm disappointed they went that literal.  [Dr. Hess (?) was Dolores Umbridge straight outta Harry Potter.]  Personally, I think it'd make more sense (but maybe not for Mick's story line, I guess) if it was more like a Quantico than school for witches.  
• Worried about Eileen and Mary now.  Sam and Dean will be fine.  :)  

[DittyDotDot]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

A word on this Buckner-Lemming episode:
Well, I think Dabb controls them better than any other show runner has.  Yes, they completed the bingo card of bad writing issues.  But it wasn't a huge distraction for me.  Since, IMO the BMoL is either going to go away or be changed, I think the Hunger Games backstory should not have to be revisited beyond getting rid of it.

Well, I enjoyed the episode, which I was not expecting. It seems to me they didn't get caught up trying to "philosophize" and instead just told the story. They still had a lot of plot points to handle, but somehow it didn't feel over-packed like usual. I can't say I'm invested in any of these plots, but I thought they handled all the different storylines well here. I think you're right, Dabb does seem to be managing their scripts better. 

Something else of a positive note, I liked the look and feel of this episode.  Nice to see John Showalter pick up an episode this season. They've had quite a few new directors over the last couple years, so I always enjoy getting a blast from the past like this. Would love to get Guy Bee back too.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So NO mother survives nephilim childbirth?  You'd think the angels would know this and it would have been something Cas could have used to convince Kelly to terminate the pregnancy.   Hm.  

This is either a writing fail or Daegon or Lucifer is lying. Otherwise it implies that Cas should have known that Lily Sunder couldn't have been the mother of a nephilim since she didn't die.  My head!canon is that Cas just didn't have that knowledge at the time.

The only other option is that they are trying to turn Cas into a lying liar who lies and I'm SO NOT here for that garbage. He's already been down that path with the boys.

[bearcatfan]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Fans are always going to interpret certain things differently. IMO making the BMoL and the Winchesters even lightweight allies, is what started ME personally wondering what message the BMOL was trying to send.

I don't think the writers actually write in response to fan feedback on a week to week basis.  It's good that they've finally gotten to the part in their storytelling that clarifies exactly how shitty the organization as a whole is vs the notion that there were only "Rogue" members doing shady stuff. 

I didn't mean that wrote it as a response to fans. Just that it was probably good that they did this so those fans would no longer be under the impression that the BMoL were in any way good.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

First two pages of comments, so some things might have already been addressed.  

On 4/6/2017 at 9:33 PM, bethy said:

If hunters are dogs and Ketch slept with Mary, I think maybe these writers have managed to hit their usual "sex worth animals" note.

Good catch!  (Did I hear you yell "Bingo!"?)

On 4/6/2017 at 10:11 PM, Macbeth said:

We get a shirtless shot of Ketch?  Well that would be the shirtless torture scene for the fans.   Take one for the team Jensen.  One scene of you sleeping in bed with your shirt off.  The fans are happy, and you can get some rest.

We also got shirtless Lucifer this ep.  But no shirtless Sam or Dean (and wasn't Dean suppose to be working on Baby?)  w. t. f. 

Also, Thank you (NOT) @catrox14 for reminding me that apparently Michael is still in the cage.  W. T.  F.  Seriously?  Guck didn't get him out and send him to Tahiti for R&R last season?  I just can't even...

12 hours ago, rue721 said:

Judging by Ketch's smirk when Doc Hess called hunters dogs, I think that he, and probably the other BMOL, still consider her a hunter, not a BMOL.

12 hours ago, Boopsahoy said:

Isn't Ketch himself a hunter for all intents and purposes?

I was going to ask the same question, but @Boopsahoy beat me to it.  

12 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Apparently he went to Hogwarts Horror Academy with Mick. So, I think he's a full-fledged member of the organization.

Did he?  Or as someone else (sorry! I forget who) pointed out, he said he and Mick were 'survivors' - which after that revelation of Mick's time at HHA (Hogwarts Horror Academy - thanks to whomever came up with that one!) would seem to infer that he also 'survived' the test to matriculate to the next level. But still not so sure.  I mean, he does just what he's told to do like a good dog.  

12 hours ago, SueB said:

I was sorry to see the wedding ring is no longer on a chain.  

- Change the locks on the bunker.  Seriously, it's their home and I don't want randoms from other countries walking in.  Get on that Sam.

I thought the ring was still on the chain.  Mary had just taken it off and it was on the bathroom counter.  Maybe I saw that wrong though.

Seriously on the lock though.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

47 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is either a writing fail or Daegon or Lucifer is lying. Otherwise it implies that Cas should have known that Lily Sunder couldn't have been the mother of a nephilim since she didn't die.  My head!canon is that Cas just didn't have that knowledge at the time.

I don't think either Daegon or Lucifer is lying about this.  Luci asked D earlier about Kelly (not 'vessel', but I can't remember what he called her) - basically he was only worried about her lasting long enough to give birth.  I do remember Daegon saying something about "this time" which makes me wonder if Luci has tried to father a kid before.  

I'll go with your headcannon that Cas just didn't know that factoid in the Lily Sunder incident.  I'll bet Ishim knew though.  I really don't think the show is trying to turn Cas into a liar.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Read through the rest of the comments:

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Not that I especially find the character interesting but I wanted to throw something when I saw Sam with the Colt. 

I'm not sure I understand this comment.  I've gathered from your other posts that you do not find Sam interesting (putting it mildly.)  Are you saying that it angered you to see Sam with the Colt?   I don't see the problem with it.   Sam has used it before - even back in Season 1.  

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean wouldn't care that Mary was getting some. It's a matter of WHOM she's getting it from that he would take issue. 

I agree.  After Dean asking Mick if he'd want his mother hunting with Ketch, I think we are safe to assume Dean would not want his mother sleeping with Sketchy either.  

[mertensia]

4 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 

Seriously on the lock though.  

Just wait til all the Amway reps and Jehovah's Witnesses discover the Lair and that they can just waltz right in.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I'm not sure I understand this comment.  I've gathered from your other posts that you do not find Sam interesting (putting it mildly.)  Are you saying that it angered you to see Sam with the Colt?   I don't see the problem with it.   Sam has used it before - even back in Season 1.  

Because only a character holding the Colt would have a chance to kill Dagon in this scene. All the ones with just regular guns wouldn`t make a difference. Dean only had his regular gun so obviously he couldn`t do the honors. Since my entire wish for the ep was seeing Dean do it, I was simply happy that at the very least everyone with the Colt struck out. 

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean wouldn't care that Mary was getting some. It's a matter of WHOM she's getting it from that he would take issue. As to Dean and the Amazon, he had no idea she was the Amazon until well after the fact.  I'd say he paid a heavy price for that mistake. He literally had a monster baby that Sam killed. 

No, I don't think he would care that she had sex with Ketch, or I should say, that I don't think it would be a bigger deal to him than her working with him in the first place.  Sex for Dean is just something that is fun and feels good.  There is no emotional attachment with it, so to him, Mary having sex with Ketch would be no different than her going out for drinks and getting smashed with him.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

There is no emotional attachment with it, so to him, Mary having sex with Ketch would be no different than her going out for drinks and getting smashed with him.

I think in this case, it would be quite different. Dean (nor Sam) surely wouldn`t be particularly thrilled to learn Mary and Ketch partied but knowing they boinked is something else. It goes beyond "seriously, that guy?" into "ewwww, that guy?" territory. And both, Dean included, would be quite entitled to make a statement like this. I see no hypocrisy in them being sick to their stomach about fucking Ketch. This is worse than Sam fucking Ruby.   

[ILoveReading]

It's interesting that Dean no longer seems to be making an effort where Mary is concerned.  Earlier we saw him texting, checking his phone, playing games, etc.  Now its almost indifference. 

[Katy M]

27 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think in this case, it would be quite different. Dean (nor Sam) surely wouldn`t be particularly thrilled to learn Mary and Ketch partied but knowing they boinked is something else. It goes beyond "seriously, that guy?" into "ewwww, that guy?" territory. And both, Dean included, would be quite entitled to make a statement like this. I see no hypocrisy in them being sick to their stomach about fucking Ketch. This is worse than Sam fucking Ruby.   

They might possibly be disgusted and say "eww", but I'm just saying it would be the height of hypocrisy.  Sam's had sex with a demon, multiple times, and DEan doesn't take more than 5 minutes to get to know someone before hopping into bed.  He could (and did) end up having sex with someone as bad or worse than Ketch.

[MysteryGuest]

23 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

t's interesting that Dean no longer seems to be making an effort where Mary is concerned.  Earlier we saw him texting, checking his phone, playing games, etc.  Now its almost indifference. 

I'm not so sure it's indifference.  I tend to believe it's just a dropped plot thread for the writers.  They don't ever really show us any interaction between Mary and the boys.  I guess we could assume they never see her, but that would be strange, considering they're actually now working with the same people.  

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

They might possibly be disgusted and say "eww", but I'm just saying it would be the height of hypocrisy.  Sam's had sex with a demon, multiple times, and DEan doesn't take more than 5 minutes to get to know someone before hopping into bed.  He could (and did) end up having sex with someone as bad or worse than Ketch.

Yes, but this is their mother.  No one likes to think of their mother having sex in any way, let alone with someone like Ketch.  I'm not saying it's rational, but I can see them giving her grief about it, or at least commenting on the ick factor of it all.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

DEan doesn't take more than 5 minutes to get to know someone before hopping into bed.  He could (and did) end up having sex with someone as bad or worse than Ketch.

I consider it worse if you do it knowingly. Sure, maybe the waitress he hooked up with in Regarding Dean is secretely an axe murderer but he had no indication of it. Mary at this point should know what`s what about Ketch. Then again, I`m not sure which character the hook-up is an insult to. Mary is certainly not better in my eyes than Ketch. So I would cheer any judgment on her.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Wayward Son]

I think it's just the way the writers tend to treat the Winchester's relationship with others. We don't / didn't often see them texting their friends such as Castiel, Bobby, Jodie, Ellen, Jo etc when they aren't needed for the current episode.

I think in general we are just meant to fill in the blanks and assume they're keeping contact off screen. 

Edited April 8, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

5 hours ago, mertensia said:

Just wait til all the Amway reps and Jehovah's Witnesses discover the Lair and that they can just waltz right in.

Hee!! So. Many. Missed. Opportunities!! 

8 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I agree.  After Dean asking Mick if he'd want his mother hunting with Ketch, I think we are safe to assume Dean would not want his mother sleeping with Sketchy either.  

But, since we all know Mary was just there to borrow a cup of sugar, this shouldn't be a problem. ;)

 

ETA: Since Sam and Dean's Key opens any chapter house, I think it time Sam and Dean go on a little treasure hunt around the world!!! ;)

Edited April 8, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not so sure it's indifference.  I tend to believe it's just a dropped plot thread for the writers.    

Well, they did have Sam asking Dean if he's heard from/talked to Mary in the hangover scene, so the writers didn't completely drop it.  Then again, it is a little weird that apparently, they haven't seen each other since "The Raid"?

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Yes, but this is their mother.

I think this would/will be the crux of the matter right there.  It's not that, on the surface as a person, Dean would care or judge Mary about whom she borrowed some sugar.  But this is their mother - and that's different than just a very close friend or sibling.

57 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

ETA: Since Sam and Dean's Key opens any chapter house, I think it time Sam and Dean go on a little treasure hunt around the world!!! ;)

Ah, now - That could be fun!  I'm picturing a fun caper or two like the switcheroo at the airport in the Leviathan story.  I wonder if the show will go there - maybe next season if the BMoL (which I've decided stands for the Bowel Movement of Letters, btw) storyline is not completely resolved by the end of this season?

Edited April 8, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
homonyms! There is not a possessive.

[rue721]

Mary started dating John at age what, 18 or 19? I would think that she hasn't been within anybody but him since then -- until now, with Ketch. I think it's a big deal that she decided to sleep with Ketch, but because of what it means about her state of mind, not because of what I think about Ketch.

She might have just been trying to blow off some steam, but she seemed really unhappy and regretful afterward. I felt bad for her. YMMV. Maybe this is even the first time she's ever had sex with someone she doesn't love or who doesn't love her. ETA:  makes sense to me that that might leave her feeling pretty down.

Also, I think that this ~rendezvous~ between Mary and Ketch is (somewhat) Sam and Dean's business because of what it means about her state of mind -- her sex life isn't really their business, but how she's feeling and what she's thinking IS their business.

And I mean, I think that choosing Ketch of all people to have sex with is a bad idea, because he's a violent lunatic and it's a bad idea to sleep with violent lunatics. And he's also her handler, who has some control over her work life and whose job it is to send her out on (dangerous) missions, so he's not someone who she can really risk getting on bad terms with. Also interesting that Ketch apparently dated/slept with Toni -- I wonder if sleeping with his operatives and subordinates is his MO.

13 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

For someone who is supposed to be such a great hunter, she certainly has some bad instincts about people.  

To be fair, Sam tends to have really bad instincts about people, too, and he's still a good hunter.

On the other hand, I don't really know why Mary's instincts are so bad! I get why Sam tends to ignore a lot of red flags -- he tends to overempathize and he's very "live and let live" as a general life philosophy IMO. But I don't have much of a theory as to how Mary comes by her bad instincts.

Edited April 8, 2017 by rue721

[MysteryGuest]

Well, I guess in defense of Mary and her bad judgment, I will say that she obviously doesn't know everything about Ketch.  She thinks he's a BMOL operative and a hunter like her, as opposed to being a psychopathic killer of innocent people.  I just don't like how her story has been written.  I knew we'd have the angst of both brothers worrying about her safety, but I thought we'd also get the upside of them actually getting their mother back.  

Edited April 8, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

To be fair, Sam tends to have really bad instincts about people, too, and he's still a good hunter.

On the other hand, I don't really know why Mary's instincts are so bad! I get why Sam tends to ignore a lot of red flags -- he tends to overempathize and he's very "live and let live" as a general life philosophy IMO. But I don't have much of a theory as to how Mary comes by her bad instincts.

I don't know if it's bad instincts on Mary's part--in the past it seemed she did have fairly good instincts--as much as she's out of step with herself and just not in a good place mentally right now. I wonder if she's not just trying too hard to find a purpose for her being brought back? Like she's trying to will something good to come out of all this?

Which is interesting you mentioned Sam; watching Mary this season is very much how I felt about Sam in S4. She just keeps choosing the thing most likely to end badly, but can't seem to see that for herself. It's like watching a train from above where you can see another train coming it's way, but the engineer can't see it because it's just around the bend. You know there's just no stopping the oncoming wreck, but you keep hoping the engineer will see the other train in time anyway.

[sugarbabex23]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

Mary started dating John at age what, 18 or 19? I would think that she hasn't been within anybody but him since then -- until now, with Ketch. I think it's a big deal that she decided to sleep with Ketch, but because of what it means about her state of mind, not because of what I think about Ketch.

She might have just been trying to blow off some steam, but she seemed really unhappy and regretful afterward. I felt bad for her. YMMV. Maybe this is even the first time she's ever had sex with someone she doesn't love or who doesn't love her. ETA:  makes sense to me that that might leave her feeling pretty down.

Also, I think that this ~rendezvous~ between Mary and Ketch is (somewhat) Sam and Dean's business because of what it means about her state of mind -- her sex life isn't really their business, but how she's feeling and what she's thinking IS their business.

And I mean, I think that choosing Ketch of all people to have sex with is a bad idea, because he's a violent lunatic and it's a bad idea to sleep with violent lunatics. And he's also her handler, who has some control over her work life and whose job it is to send her out on (dangerous) missions, so he's not someone who she can really risk getting on bad terms with. Also interesting that Ketch apparently dated/slept with Toni -- I wonder if sleeping with his operatives and subordinates is his MO.

To be fair, Sam tends to have really bad instincts about people, too, and he's still a good hunter.

On the other hand, I don't really know why Mary's instincts are so bad! I get why Sam tends to ignore a lot of red flags -- he tends to overempathize and he's very "live and let live" as a general life philosophy IMO. But I don't have much of a theory as to how Mary comes by her bad instincts.

4

 

Interestingly enough, it seems that although Sam definitely is more like John, he also shares alot in common with Mary. Sam is the perfect balance of his father and his mother. He's his mother's son almost just as much as he is his father's son. 

Edited April 8, 2017 by sugarbabex23

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Because only a character holding the Colt would have a chance to kill Dagon in this scene. All the ones with just regular guns wouldn`t make a difference. Dean only had his regular gun so obviously he couldn`t do the honors. Since my entire wish for the ep was seeing Dean do it, I was simply happy that at the very least everyone with the Colt struck out. 

Apparently the show isn't ready to have Dagon die yet, so if Dean had the Colt, there would likely be complaints of why wasn't he able to kill Dagon. So by Sam having it, we have no "Dean is being portrayed as incompetent" complaints when Dagon wasn't killed.

Likely when the writers are ready to have Dagon killed - if they decide to have her killed and not save her for some other plot - then likely Dean will be the one to do it...

Unless it's Crowely, since I don't think that this Lucifer / Yellow-Eyed Demon clan / Crowley thing is done yet. I'm not even sure who's going to be on whose side in that whole thing. It's possible Sam and Dean might have to reluctantly team up with Crowley again - even if/once they find out Lucifer not being back in the cage again is Crowley's fault.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, I guess in defense of Mary and her bad judgment, I will say that she obviously doesn't know everything about Ketch.  She thinks he's a BMOL operative and a hunter like her, as opposed to being a psychopathic killer of innocent people.  I just don't like how her story has been written.  I knew we'd have the angst of both brothers worrying about her safety, but I thought we'd also get the upside of them actually getting their mother back.  

She has SOME idea how ruthless he can be. She watched him take the 'rogue' hunter off to be "dealt with" and it was going to be unpleasant and she said "Good".   She knows that Lady SomeonePleasePutaNeedleinHEReyeSoon burned her youngest child's foot with a blowtorch after days of other torment.  Thus IMO, she's being obtuse about what those two things portend for the entire organization, never mind that she knew they were intending to commit genocide against the monsters. This is why I can't understand her or Sam's motivations for jumping into bed with the BMoL (literally and metaphorically). UNLESS they are both running a long ass con and haven't bothered to include Dean on the plan 

14 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Apparently the show isn't ready to have Dagon die yet, so if Dean had the Colt, there would likely be complaints of why wasn't he able to kill Dagon.

I'm not sure there would have been complaints because Dagon is a Prince of Hell and it was already know regular weapons wouldn't work since those failed to kill Ramiel. Just more stupid LOL CONTINUITY from The Literal Worst Writers Duo

[SueB]

17 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

Agree. I'm barely on here anymore because of it. This use to be a place where I came to decompress. Now, it raises my blood pressure.

If you watching to determine how the writers/director/whoever is screwing your favorite character, you are going to find it. It's called confirmation bias.

Precisely. 

[Lemuria]

17 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think the writers actually write in response to fan feedback on a week to week basis.  It's good that they've finally gotten to the part in their storytelling that clarifies exactly how shitty the organization as a whole is vs the notion that there were only "Rogue" members doing shady stuff. 

I'm probably wrong--I usually am in speculations!--but I felt that we were supposed to like, or at least admire, the BMoL.  Dabb was very complimentary in his comments about them early on.  We got a Lady Toni with a cute kid and being very egalitarian with her--aide?  Servant?  Member of her retinue?--in the last ep last year.  There was no "Code" that required them to kill anyone who kills a member of the BMoL, or they would have been after Dean and Sam for the death of the Bearer of the Angelic Knucklebusters at the beginning of the season.  And so on.

While they couldn't really respond on a week-to-week basis, since eps are written well in advance of the showing, I think the mostly negative reaction to Lady T. and the BMoL might have changed the direction of the show in regard to them in the now-showing second half of the season.

(Speaking of Lady Toni's kid:  The Sun was dying, Creation was ending, but she was over here trying to capture the Winchesters instead of staying with her son.  Why the heck did she, or anyone in the BMoL, care about the Winchesters or American hunters at that juncture?)

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I'm probably wrong--I usually am in speculations!--but I felt that we were supposed to like, or at least admire, the BMoL.  Dabb was very complimentary in his comments about them early on.  We got a Lady Toni with a cute kid and being very egalitarian with her--aide?  Servant?  Member of her retinue?--in the last ep last year.  There was no "Code" that required them to kill anyone who kills a member of the BMoL, or they would have been after Dean and Sam for the death of the Bearer of the Angelic Knucklebusters at the beginning of the season.  And so on.

While they couldn't really respond on a week-to-week basis, since eps are written well in advance of the showing, I think the mostly negative reaction to Lady T. and the BMoL might have changed the direction of the show in regard to them in the now-showing second half of the season.

(Speaking of Lady Toni's kid:  The Sun was dying, Creation was ending, but she was over here trying to capture the Winchesters instead of staying with her son.  Why the heck did she, or anyone in the BMoL, care about the Winchesters or American hunters at that juncture?)

I don't know how anybody could think that viewers would react positively to a kidnapper/torturer.  Or someone who would abandon their child at the end of the world for no good reason.  I mean, seriously.  There was a good chance the world was going to end.  Who would leave their small child for that?  Oh, right, the same people who would send their kids to a school that has death-office matches.

As for the code and not killing the slightly worse person, Mick called her "your" fill in her name.  Maybe she wasn't a BMOL.  Maybe she was a freelancer that Toni hired.  Maybe they ignored the code for the bigger picture.

My point is, I don't think they ever wrote them likeable.  Only Mick in the last couple of episodes. 

The only way they could have ever been thought of as likeable is if Toni had indeed gone rogue and was acting on her own.  In which case, of course her cohort wouldn't have been "protected" by the code. I imagine the second you step out of bounds, you find yourself expelled from membership--and then likely killed.  I'm actually going to call BS if we ever see Toni again.  Either she went rogue, or she failed miserably.  From what I can tell both earn you the death penalty in this organization.

Now, I'm wondering about the American MOLs.  What do you we really know about them? 

[rue721]

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know if it's bad instincts on Mary's part--in the past it seemed she did have fairly good instincts--as much as she's out of step with herself and just not in a good place mentally right now. I wonder if she's not just trying too hard to find a purpose for her being brought back? Like she's trying to will something good to come out of all this?

Took this over to the Mary Winchester thread.

25 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I felt that we were supposed to like, or at least admire, the BMoL

This might just be me, but as soon as they showed that blue-lit series of scenes of the BMOL killing monster after monster in Britain, I was pretty sure they were bad guys. That sequence was really chilling and brutal.

And meanwhile, Toni was torturing Sam. And then her lackey got into a fight to the death with Dean and Mary.

I think they were always meant to be the bad guys. YMMV.

[DittyDotDot]

39 minutes ago, rue721 said:

This might just be me, but as soon as they showed that blue-lit series of scenes of the BMOL killing monster after monster in Britain, I was pretty sure they were bad guys.

Yeah, that was where I decided they weren't the good guys too.

[SueB]

I think any positive things Dabb said at the beginning was supposed to put the BMoL in a 'understandable' from our characters POV. Why what SOME* of they were doing could be seen as 'a better way'.  WE, on the other hand, saw all the shady stuff (including the blue-lit montage) and knew there was something wrong with them from the jump.  It's a bit unusual for us to have SO much more info than the boys.  I think that's been a source of frustration for many.  

*The lore dating back to at least 16th century, a school for learning, an effective communications approach to get out info. These can, on the surface, look impressive.  Only WE have seen the cruelty of the kills, the Hunger Games school environment, and the 'supreme overlord' attitude of the 'old men.'

[catrox14]

I've thought all along, that Dabb was trying to push the notion that the BMOL are not any worse than American Hunters if the goal is to rid the world of monsters and demons and evil things. It's just that the boys kill them one on one like soldiers on the battle field vs detached warfare conducted remotely. And whilst we might not LIKE them we shouldn't necessarily DISLIKE them either if the goals are the same.

I honestly thought they were going to set up Lady SheNeedsToWalkInFrontofaBus  as "Evil Femme Fatale" after she tortured Sam, especially when Mick showed up being all 'honest, FELLAS, SHE is the problem, NOT US MENFOLK'. Like no joke, I thought it would turn into a total evil rogue women vs the GOOD MEN in the BMoL.  But I thought surely not. They won't poke that stupid bear.    I still think there is going to be a male vs female thing happening here and I think the "Old Men" won't be men at all. I think it's actually going to be the women in charge of all it. 

[Commando Cody]

I have to say. Hess is more what I imagined for Lucifer's mother on the TV show Lucifer.  Someone ruthless and who one really should be afraid of. 

[Mick Lady]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 6:56 PM, ZennyKenny said:

Sorry for the delayed response. I just got back from the hospital. Thursday night was pretty rough. Last thing I remember was uncontrolled vomiting after turning on the tv and finding out that Mary and Ketch slept together.

Full disclosure: I missed A LOT of the episode, so I don't know if they actually showed them having sex or not. I missed the entire first half, and the end. But still, just the scene with Ketch in bed talking to Mary was enough to ruin my night.

Ah, I see from reading the thread that they killed the one BMOL that I actually liked, Mick. Yeah, he was starting to develop a character arc... can't have that!

Ok. tell me if I'm understanding this correctly, because again, I missed it. Are you guys saying that the BMoL actually decided to completely wipe out all American hunters this episode? And if so, did the person saying it suddenly put his pinky to the edge of his mouth and look into the camera? Because that's some comical-level supervillainry right there.

*SIGH* Is it season 13 yet?

Short drift. ZennyKenny, I hope you're feeling better and it was nothing serious! I wish we could get through a few months with everybody here healthy for a change!

[Mick Lady]

14 hours ago, rue721 said:

it's a bad idea to sleep with violent lunatics.

Now that's a bumper sticker!

I agree with all who have said that The Boys wouldn't look kindly on their Mom sleeping with Ketch. Not because it's Ketch, but because it's their Mom! I know, they're all grownups, but still, ugh!

One reason I like it here, is because you all help me justify all the discrepancies.  I hate having to figure out how to readjust the canon.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Mick Lady

[ILoveReading]

As for the British Men of Letters I honestly have no idea if Dabb thinks they are good guys or bad guys or still see shades of grey.  Often times I think there is a disconnect between what one of the writers say and then what comes across on screen.  Dabb reads the scripts but directors, and actors can add their own touches and adding a look or changing a tone can completely change the direction of something.

Dean's confrontation with God is a good example.  When Buck/Lemming wrote the script they wrote it as angry.  So in an interview that airs they might have said Dean gets mad at God, but when watching the scene it might cause a person to go "what are they talking about?"

When I say that I don't see how Dabb can think people still believe their the good guys, I'm not being sarcastic because to me it isn't clear cut for the reason mentioned above.  I don't know what script directions there might have been, who might have added changed, etc.  Also they write and film months in advance.  They usually have episode 8 or 9 filmed before the first episode even airs.  Dabb wrote episode nine where they killed all the solider for just doing their job.  So he did know about that little detail but yet he still gave an interview where he said that Sam and Dean would come to work with them and come to respect them. (its possible he meant Mick but he didn't specificy in the interview just said them, which I tool to mean as a whole).

Right from the start they were shady, when they kidnapped and tortured Sam, yet Dabb continued to say positive things about them in interviews. 

So for me anyways its not obvious what his views are on the organization. 

[rue721]

8 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

Short drift. ZennyKenny, I hope you're feeling better and it was nothing serious! I wish we could get through a few months with everybody here healthy for a change!

I think (hope!) that @ZennyKenny was just joking about Ketch and Mary's hookup making her sick

[Bessie]

You can't take everything that Dabb, or any show runner, says as truth. None of them want to give up the plot ahead of time. So misdirection or stretching the truth is something I expect from writers.  It's not uncommon and all viewers can do is go by what the show, as a whole, is telling them onscreen. 

Now, if Dabb is still saying positive things about the BMoL after showing children killing children, then maybe he's a psychopath. Kidding!  But I think he's just a writer who didn't want to give away his story before the ending. 

[DeeDee79]

I finally got the chance to watch today and I have mixed feelings about it. I liked seeing Eileen and the fact that she's kept in touch with the brothers. I hope that she isn't targeted by the BMOL; she would make a good love interest for Sam and she has a nice rapport with Dean also. Beyond that I was pretty meh on the rest of the episode. The Lucifer scenes aside from his talks with Dagon were unnecessary. The time could have been better served by showing us where Cas has been all of this time. His prolonged absence makes me think that once again Heaven is using him as a punching bag. I didn't expect Mick to get killed off and it's annoying that it was done to further the plot just when he got a backbone. I have no words for Mary and Ketch.

[Myrelle]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 9:21 AM, Katy M said:

They might possibly be disgusted and say "eww", but I'm just saying it would be the height of hypocrisy.  Sam's had sex with a demon, multiple times, and DEan doesn't take more than 5 minutes to get to know someone before hopping into bed.  He could (and did) end up having sex with someone as bad or worse than Ketch.

I'm just wondering who Dean slept with who you would consider worse than Ketch.

 

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 0:45 PM, sugarbabex23 said:

Interestingly enough, it seems that although Sam definitely is more like John, he also shares alot in common with Mary. Sam is the perfect balance of his father and his mother. He's his mother's son almost just as much as he is his father's son.

IA. But OTH, I'm beginning to believe that Dean was adopted since IMO he only shares a few surface qualities with both parents.

Like these

Quote

They've definitely shown her favor Dean's personality w/ comfort items: food & sex.

And the way Mary treated Ketch was more like how DemonDean treated AnnMarie after borrowing sugar from her. In fact, the dialogue for DemonDean and Mary in both scenes was pretty much identical. I think to truly understand how Dean views sex and feels about it, one would need only to re-watch  that scene in Between a Rock and a Hard Place where he describes it. And to notice that he is always very regretful of the "adios".

Edited April 9, 2017 by Myrelle

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I'm just wondering who Dean slept with who you would consider worse than Ketch.

Good question. Other than his one night stands which we hear about but don't see and Cassie, Lisa, Anna & the Amazon I can't think of anyone else that would be in the same category as Ketch.

[Macbeth]

I am not apologizing for not liking this episode.  I don't watch this show for puppies and rainbows but this episode was a little much even for this show. 

I am not standing on any moral high ground.  If this episode had been executed with any sort of competency I would not have complained.  But there was nothing tying the scenes together and each scene came off as another box that needed to be checked off.  There was no emotional investment except for the one scene between Sam and Eileen.

Maybe my expectations are too high and I just need to look for the one scene or line that made watching the show worth my effort.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

I'm just wondering who Dean slept with who you would consider worse than Ketch.

The Amazon. 

 

51 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Good question. Other than his one night stands which we hear about but don't see and Cassie, Lisa, Anna & the Amazon I can't think of anyone else that would be in the same category as Ketch.

Really, you don't think the Amazon, someone who plans to have her child kill her own father is anywhere in the same league with Ketch?  That's pretty bad.