S05.E06: Crossbreed

[misstwpherecool]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Farewell. (If actual Russian speaker corrects me--listen to them!)

 

Also, they're both damn productive. These are people who wanted to keep running Martha even when Philip was sure she was burned. They have a very hard time taking anybody out. They run them into the ground. They're not going to just decide to kill Philip, who's aced pretty much every assignment he's ever been given, because they think he's not loyal enough, especially since he's been this way for so long. Elizabeth started reporting that he was weak years ago and they let it play out.

Claudia gave them begrudging respect with the 'nothing scares those two comment'.  She probably looks at them or Philip as a lose cannon but  go-to agents for just that reason.  

[Umbelina]

7 hours ago, stagmania said:

They never had any good choices at all once the Centre decided to recruit their children. If they didn't follow orders and recruit Paige into the cause, the entire family would've had to run. Maybe that's what they should've chosen, but either way Paige's choices and chance for a normal life had already traipsed right out the door, and Philip and Elizabeth made what they thought was the best of a menu of bad choices to try to keep their family and lives intact. It's a bit of an oversimplification to pin all of that on Elizabeth being "gung ho" about the cause, especially since she was depicted as having mixed feelings about it. 

They could do what Philip wanted to do since the show began...defect. 

Elizabeth was thrilled Paige was being recruited.  I just watched that part again.  She and Philip had huge arguments about it, once Philip realized Elizabeth was grooming her by attending church with her and reporting back to Gabe.  "It's HAPPENING!"  (so shut up Philip!)

6 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

In reference to the bolden above.  It makes sense, but, if the Center goes that way and takes out P,  wouldn't it be more problematic for E? If P were to be murdered or go missing, then, the police investigation would be trouble for E, if she remains in her position.  Even if E accepts that P is suddenly gone, others would question what happened and insist on filing a missing persons report.  And if he's murdered, more investigation.  I suppose that he could be be killed ACCIDENTALLY, but, even that is problematic, because of the fact that he doesn't really exist and it opens E and the kids to possible discovery.  To me, it's safer if they all stay or all go at once. 

If the Center is done with P, then, I would imagine them moving P, E, and the kids out quickly. Sort of like when Martha was out of the country in a matter of hours. Do you recall the big DISGUST that P and E had when they were discussing how the Russian Agriculture guy just told his family they were leaving Russia and they were gone, just like that?  Their sentiments stood out to me and I now wonder if it foreshadows their fate.  The conversation between E and Paige about how E hasn't been there in a long time? It would make sense, though, once there, the show would be at its end, I suppose.  They could never come back to the US.

They wouldn't even find Philip's body, or it would be a plane crash with all dead, the KGB knows how to kill people. 

When the whole "go see your mother in Russia" story happened I was shocked there wasn't more blow back from Center.  Listening to Gabe and Claudia talk?  I think there was.  It's not just Elizabeth reports on Philip, and her doubts about him, it's other things as well that make the KGB doubt Philip, for example the need for a "vacation," the refusal to do away with the Pastors, pulling Martha against orders, and initial balking of recruiting their children which Claudia certainly reported if Gabe did not.  Most of all though?  I think that against-orders jaunt to for Elizabeth to see her mother did it.  Obviously, that would mean they now have doubts about Elizabeth as well, she's the one who went, even if Philip planned it.

1 hour ago, Sighed I said:

I think if the Center decides to off Philip, they would indeed declare, "Mission over. Elizabeth, get your kids. You're going home." Now, given they have to know E/P have a real, loving relationship, I think they'd set it up to make Philip's death look like an accident (not that Elizabeth would buy it). Plus if he dies accidentally, it could mitigate the need for an investigation by the authorities, as long as they're careful to choose the "right" kind of death.

I imagine they're watching Elizabeth (almost?) as closely as they are Philip, looking for signs that his discontent hasn't rubbed off on her. If they determine Philip is a lost cause and she's been contaminated, they both go bye-bye. Not sure what they'd do with the kids, but I'd think their first choice in that situation would be to repatriate the kids and "reeducate" them (not saying that would work either--one miscalculation the Center may have made in all this is how American these kids are).

But I think the most likely scenario would be to pull E/P out and send the whole family home and give Philip a chance to get his head on straight in the safety of the Motherland, where he'd be easier to contain (or so they think... He is a super mega spy after all ;). I don't think they want to kill either one of them--they are heroes after all-- and they'll only go that route if E/P force their hand by defecting or going on the run.

Oh yes, I agree I was wrong on that point; I should have conceded that more clearly in my previous response. I was on a roll in my condemnation of the E-Ville KGB and in my zeal misremembered some of the details of that particular story line. ;) I'd like to address some of your other points, but unfortunately I have to go to work now. I'll finish my thoughts later.

Or they kill them both, and the kids, or at least Paige, who also knows too much.  They may not want pro-America Philip back in the Soviet Union slipping up and telling anyone about the cars in most garages, the freedom, the variety and abundance of food, due process of law, protesters allowed, etc.  (Also, my answer above.)

Elizabeth became complicit with Philip not following orders by also defying her bosses and flying off to see her mother.  She's obviously covering for him now as well.  "He's fine, he exactly the same amount of upset that I am about killing an innocent scientist who was working to end world hunger because of your bullshit paranoia about the United States poisoning grain and ruining their trade economics for decades to come."

39 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Yeah, Paige and Henry likely will not have to do the dirtier jobs P and E have had to do -- sleeping with strangers, frequent violence, etc.   But they'd still struggle with the constant lying, the constant threat of being caught and imprisonment, and the guilt because of a lifelong loyalty to the U.S.   And chafe against authority from the Centre.  

As Philip said, "until something goes wrong, and something ALWAYS goes wrong."  For example, Paige somehow really does become a loyal communist working for the KGB (oh please!) and she needs to plant a bug in an office she has no access to at work.  She's caught by a cleaning woman, and needs to use her training and kill her.  Or, there is a sensitive promotion available but some other person is more qualified, is she ordered to seduce the one who will choose, or is the more qualified person, once identified by Paige, suddenly dead?  All kinds of things happen in the field, as Philip, and certainly Elizabeth, would know.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Umbelina

[Clanstarling]

Man, I can never get to the forum until there's at least 4 pages of commentaries. Thank goodness there's the multiquote option.  Sometimes though, that means that I delete a quote because I don't remember what I was going to comment on, and then remember it later - but it's too much effort to find the originator.

Case in point, someone upthread had a nice comment about Paige and her discussion about religion as regarded in communism. When a minute later she said that being baptized was the best she'd ever felt in her life. I turned to my husband and said "hence the opiate of the people."

On 4/11/2017 at 10:13 PM, Dev F said:

That was Stan's tape of him, wasn't it? The one the CIA was trying to use to turn him? It made sense to me that he would destroy it, even if he doesn't know for sure that the CIA's plan has been called off. Like so many people in the episode, Oleg decided that come what may, he's not going to remain a prisoner of the past anymore.

My first thought, when he destroyed the tape, was "oh please, it's not like that's the only copy." After a bit of thought, I realized that it was not that the CIA couldn't still get to him - It was that after taking a good long look at the food guy in the prison Oleg and his partner had dumped him, he realized he needed to get rid of the evidence to protect himself (and his family) from the possibility of his own people finding that tape in his home.

On 4/12/2017 at 8:55 AM, curbcrusher said:

I think Oleg was ready to turn. I think his getting back to the USSR, chasing down a produce manager, and threatening the son with a more dangerous assignment in Afghanistan left him in a place where he was ready to talk, or at least explore what the other side had to offer. Stan's meddling in the CIA op screwed this up. So the produce mismanagement story helped drive two arcs, the eventual downfall of Stan and Oleg's realization that he is ready to look for something else in life. I think Oleg's evidence destruction on the roof was him realizing that he is trapped.

And now, for @curbcrusher's more thoughtful reaction which is on the same page, different paragraph.

On 4/12/2017 at 9:07 AM, Sarah 103 said:

I saw him do tai chi, and I swear "This is The End" by The Doors started to play in my head. My guess is that Elizabeth thinks she can recuit him and turn him. Someone who is already liberal and wants to make the world a better place would make Elizabeth think she has a chance.

My take on the tai chi was that this could be Elizabeth's version of EST - something that calms and relaxes her. She's a more physical person than Phillip, I think. I also thought this could help Paige as well.

On 4/12/2017 at 11:21 AM, Chaos Theory said:

When it comes to Paige defiant teenagers might be more fun to write but for a show winding down not practical.  Also not really in tune with who Paige actually is as a person.  She asks the right questions and wants to do the right thing but she is ultimately a follower.  She would actually be a great asset because she does ultimately follow orders without much resistance.  But she is also smart and intuitive enough to put pieces together without prompting.  She is actually an interesting combination of American and Russian.  

This.

On 4/12/2017 at 1:22 PM, Razzberry said:

 Creepiest scene of the episode was her parents taking her to meet Gabriel.

I had both reactions we've been discussing. I choked up a bit, thinking how sweet the moment was, then was horrified that she was being brought further into the fold.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I actually don't see a sudden revelation of Henry being far more intelligent than anyone thought. He's always been intelligent. (I've always paid attention to all his scenes--this is totally consistent!) He's just also someone who doesn't see a reason to put energy into something that doesn't interest him. Back in S2 he was even talking to his parents about how he found testing to be counter-intuitive because he just crammed for the test and then forgot it instead of learning it. He did all his best studying outside of school.

Agreed. I've always thought he was intelligent (just young and acted it) and definitely had better instincts than Paige.

43 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

Claudia gave them begrudging respect with the 'nothing scares those two comment'.  She probably looks at them or Philip as a lose cannon but  go-to agents for just that reason.  

I took her statement in a different light. "nothing scares those two" (they'll get us all killed) as opposed to "nothing scares those two" (man do they have balls)

[Erin9]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

They could do what Philip wanted to do since the show began...defect. 

When the whole "go see your mother in Russia" story happened I was shocked there wasn't more blow back from Center.  Listening to Gabe and Claudia talk?  I think there was.  It's not just Elizabeth reports on Philip, and her doubts about him, it's other things as well that make the KGB doubt Philip, for example the need for a "vacation," the refusal to do away with the Pastors, pulling Martha against orders, and initial balking of recruiting their children which Claudia certainly reported if Gabe did not.  Most of all though?  I think that against-orders jaunt to for Elizabeth to see her mother did it.  Obviously, that would mean they now have doubts about Elizabeth as well, she's the one who went, even if Philip planned it.

Elizabeth became complicit with Philip not following orders by also defying her bosses and flying off to see her mother.  She's obviously covering for him now as well.  "He's fine, he exactly the same amount of upset that I am about killing an innocent scientist who was working to end world hunger because of your bullshit paranoia about the United States poisoning grain and ruining their trade economics for decades to come."

I kind of doubt everyday Philip thinks about how he'd like to hand over information that could be used to hurt his people to the americans. I don't think becoming a traitor is something he takes lightly. The main way Elizabeth and Gabriel have motivated him over the years is by using the welfare of their people. I  think it would be a very difficult decision to actually make and go through with-unless he was absolutely pushed to the wall. 

I always saw Philip's pilot defection idea as a result of a very specific set of circumstances-fear of having Timoshev in his trunk and a FBI agent moving in. He was afraid they were under suspicion. He's never used that word again. He's talked about running a few times though. I tend to think he'd rather just find a way to disappear into America were he to be able to choose between the 2 options. Besides, we know he doesn't fully trust the americans either; he trusts them more than Elizabeth, but he doesn't fully trust them imo. 

Judging by his recent reactions to being watched and how he clearly knew just how serious it would be to get "fired" from the KGB- my guess is he's pretty scared of making an enemy out of them. As well he should. Right now- I suspect that is his main concern. The implications for everyone, not just himself, are huge. Which is also likely why he's only mentioned running under rather dire circumstances, too. 

IA with a lot of your points on why the centre is watching Philip, but I tend to think it's more the way he questions things and more apparent burnout that's leading to him being watched more closely.  Elizabeth is ultimately complicit in a lot herself- the  trip to Germany, she did not want to kill the Tims in the end too, and she needed that vacation as well- both were at the end of their ropes by then. Now pulling Martha and initially refusing to recruit the kids, IA, that was all Philip. That said, I'd like to think the centre realized pulling Martha was the right call. Had he followed their orders, they'd have been totally screwed. 

But- as has been said up- thread, Philip has produced incredible results for them over the years. On his own and as partners with Elizabeth. The KGB won't give that up easily. Plus, if they lose Philip, Elizabeth is done too one way or the other- no matter how they choose to handle her. They have to be running low on Directorate S officers. They've already lost 5 just in the timeframe of this show. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by Erin9

[Umbelina]

The report that Elizabeth made doubting Philip's loyalty and saying he liked America too much was reference in this episode by both Claudia and Gabe as well.  I listed some other stuff in the "end" thread as well.

I just have this gut feeling that Gabriel is leaving specifically because he knows it might come to eliminating Philip, whether from desperation moves by Center, as ordered from their bosses, or just that he sees the writing on the wall.  It resonated with me, and in reading some of the reviews (in the review thread) of this episode, it stood out to them as well.  As I mentioned, I'm rewatching the series, and a lot of stuff keeps coming up.  Warnings to Philip from Gabe, Gabe telling that story about having to kill his friend, and many others back in the USSR, when things were paranoid and crazy, (as they are beginning to be again now as the USSR is in it's dying days, unknown to our leads of course.)

Gabriel decides to leave/quit.  It's huge.  That leads me to "Why?"  My best answer is he doesn't want to kill Philip, and he knows it may go that way.  "May" being the operative word here.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

35 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The report that Elizabeth made doubting Philip's loyalty and saying he liked America too much was reference in this episode by both Claudia and Gabe as well.  I listed some other stuff in the "end" thread as well.

I just have this gut feeling that Gabriel is leaving specifically because he knows it might come to eliminating Philip, whether from desperation moves by Center, as ordered from their bosses, or just that he sees the writing on the wall.  It resonated with me, and in reading some of the reviews (in the review thread) of this episode, it stood out to them as well.  As I mentioned, I'm rewatching the series, and a lot of stuff keeps coming up.  Warnings to Philip from Gabe, Gabe telling that story about having to kill his friend, and many others back in the USSR, when things were paranoid and crazy, (as they are beginning to be again now as the USSR is in it's dying days, unknown to our leads of course.)

Gabriel decides to leave/quit.  It's huge.  That leads me to "Why?"  My best answer is he doesn't want to kill Philip, and he knows it may go that way.  "May" being the operative word here.

I think there are several reasons he's leaving.

One- I think he truly hates having to look at Philip and lie to him. I think he hates that he sent his son back without Philip even seeing him once. He sounded so guilty when he talked about seeing Philip in Misha. He really hated doing that. 

I think he's over spying. He's expressed doubts to Claudia and Philip for a long time- over Paige, the war, getting the virus, keeping Misha from Philip and maybe more. And I think he's lonely too. Truthfully, I'd be surprised if the centre isn't watching him. And he's aware it could be a problem. 

But, yes, I do think he's afraid Philip's death might be ordered, and he doesn't want any part of that. Honestly, I don't think Gabriel would be able to be complicit in that. I could see him cracking. Philip and Elizabeth may not get why he's leaving, but they get Gabriel's concern that with the KGB watching Philip  closely they might ultimately turn on him, resulting in his death and obvious bad consequences for the rest of the family. They got that message loud and clear.

[jjj]

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Farewell. (If actual Russian speaker corrects me--listen to them!)

That's right!  Прощай = farewell or goodbye (Now I want to know the context in the story about "The Americans" where it appeared! Was there a final scene of anyone in this episode?) 

[Blakeston]

I've been thinking for ages that Henry has far, far more spy potential than Paige. Going back to season one, when he realized that guy who picked them up hitchhiking was a perv, and did something about it.

They spent the next few seasons establishing that he was successfully breaking into neighbors' homes just to play their video games; that he somehow got his hands on a photo of Mrs. Beamon in a bikini; and that he stole Matthew's cologne without anyone noticing.

I've been assuming for a while that they would reveal that he had some kind of special skills. E & P have been focused almost entirely on Paige, and ignoring the kid with the real potential. (I don't think Paige would even be good at being a Martha. She's naive, doesn't deal well with pressure, and can't handle lying about simple things.)

[magemaud]

Maybe this is too far-fetched and I'm overthinking things, but couldn't Oleg's mother have gotten pregnant by Philip's (prison guard) father and they are actually half-brothers? 

[SunnyBeBe]

49 minutes ago, magemaud said:

Maybe this is too far-fetched and I'm overthinking things, but couldn't Oleg's mother have gotten pregnant by Philip's (prison guard) father and they are actually half-brothers? 

Well.....I guess it's possible, but, I'm not sure the show would go there.  I have wondered for some time if Gabriel was actually Philip's dad, but, I don't think that anymore.  Even if Philip has little memory of his dad, he would certainly remember it if it was Gabriel, right?  And what would be the purpose of keeping it a secret?  

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I've been thinking for ages that Henry has far, far more spy potential than Paige. Going back to season one, when he realized that guy who picked them up hitchhiking was a perv, and did something about it.

 

Paige: Thinks she's Michael, is actually Fredo.

Henry: Thinks he's Fredo, is actually Michael.

1 hour ago, magemaud said:

Maybe this is too far-fetched and I'm overthinking things, but couldn't Oleg's mother have gotten pregnant by Philip's (prison guard) father and they are actually half-brothers? 

Practically every Russian character has been theorized to be secretly related to another Russian character: Gabriel is Philip's dad, Gabriel is Elizabeth's dad, Claudia is Elizabeth's mom, Zinaida is Elizabeth's mom, Oleg's brother is Philip's son, now Oleg is Philip's brother. 

There's about as much reason to think any of these things are true as there is for thinking that, say...Aderholdt is secretly Gregory's brother or Gaad is Tuan's real father. Nobody ever theorizes secret relatives for Stan!

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, magemaud said:

Maybe this is too far-fetched and I'm overthinking things, but couldn't Oleg's mother have gotten pregnant by Philip's (prison guard) father and they are actually half-brothers? 

Of course it's possible—this is a fictional TV show—but it's much soapier than the show ever goes.

43 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 I have wondered for some time if Gabriel was actually Philip's dad

I can't imagine the Centre would want a father supervising his son in the field, regardless of whether the son knew it. Too much built-in emotional trouble. 

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Gabrielle Tracy said:

16 hours ago, jjj said:

That's right!  Прощай = farewell or goodbye (Now I want to know the context in the story about "The Americans" where it appeared! Was there a final scene of anyone in this episode?) 

@jjj, could you tell me how to pronounce it?  I'm always interested in learning things in a new language!

Here's a native speaker saying it: https://forvo.com/search/Прощай/

[Sarah 103]

23 hours ago, Umbelina said:

For example, Paige somehow really does become a loyal communist working for the KGB (oh please!) and she needs to plant a bug in an office she has no access to at work.  She's caught by a cleaning woman, and needs to use her training and kill her.  Or, there is a sensitive promotion available but some other person is more qualified, is she ordered to seduce the one who will choose, or is the more qualified person, once identified by Paige, suddenly dead?  All kinds of things happen in the field, as Philip, and certainly Elizabeth, would know.

I think the more likely scenario would be that Paige identifies the person and then the person dies. I don't think they would have her plant a bug. The whole point is to have someone on the inside, so I doubt the Centre would risk having her do something that would put her job at risk. Martha was able to plant the bug because she already had access to the office. They never asked her to go anywhere in the office she wouldn't already be going, or do a task that would look strange. 

22 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I had both reactions we've been discussing. I choked up a bit, thinking how sweet the moment was, then was horrified that she was being brought further into the fold.

To me the moment had a dream-like quality to it. I couldn't believe it was actually happening on screen. 

3 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I've been thinking for ages that Henry has far, far more spy potential than Paige. Going back to season one, when he realized that guy who picked them up hitchhiking was a perv, and did something about it.

They spent the next few seasons establishing that he was successfully breaking into neighbors' homes just to play their video games; that he somehow got his hands on a photo of Mrs. Beamon in a bikini; and that he stole Matthew's cologne without anyone noticing.

I've been assuming for a while that they would reveal that he had some kind of special skills. E & P have been focused almost entirely on Paige, and ignoring the kid with the real potential. (I don't think Paige would even be good at being a Martha. She's naive, doesn't deal well with pressure, and can't handle lying about simple things.)

Yes to all of this! I totally agree with everything you wrote. 

49 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Paige: Thinks she's Michael, is actually Fredo.

Henry: Thinks he's Fredo, is actually Michael.

I would say Paige is Sonny, because she has a tendency to freak out. Her freak outs are different from his, but the reaction is still freak out. Like Michael, Henry starts thinking, planing, and taking action. The scene with the hitchiker is totally Michael at the hospital. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I thought Paige was the one who hit the strange guy and yelled for Henry to run. 

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I thought Paige was the one who hit the strange guy and yelled for Henry to run. 

Not at all. It was Henry who was suspicious of the guy from the start, objected to getting in his car, noticed that he had a knife, challenged the guy when he kept changing his story, hit him and yelled for Paige to run. If it were up to Henry they would never have been hitchhiking, especially with that guy. Paige insisted they hitchhike, happily got in the car, was fine with the guy lying about his intentions and taking them to a secluded place and accepted a beer from him. Henry was 100% the one on the ball in that situation--and later worried that he hurt an innocent guy if he'd been wrong. Paige was trusting, naive, unobservant and helpless.

[SunnyBeBe]

That's right.  I had them mixed up.  Poor Paige. lol 

[Umbelina]

I misquoted Philip.  His real quote was "until things change, and things always change" not "until things go wrong, and things always go wrong."  He was saying that about Paige ending up doing what they do, and Elizabeth protesting that nah, she'd just be in an office somewhere.

I agree with Philip.

[Bretton]

Unlike some here, I don't think Gabriel going home has to do with his sense that Phillip may be in imminent danger from the Center. Rather, I think he's at the point where he feels too much cognitive dissonance between doing what's better for the cause and doing what's better for the person. I think he (marginally) agrees with Claudia that it would be bad for the cause for Philip to know about Mischa. But -- he feels horrible about being put in a position of being the agent who kept father and son apart -- especially since he loves Philip like a son.

By the way, gotta say, Philip saying the line -- "So you're not keeping anything from me?" was just a little TOO rich. I know it was in the context of him asking Gabriel about his own father's background. But still, that was a little soapy.

By the way, the reason these outlier lines strike me strangely is because usually the dialog is SO bang-on with this show. In other words, when something feels like a little TOO much, it tends to stand out and makes alarm bells go off for me.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Bretton

[MisterBluxom]

I must say that I'm a little bewildered by this season. Never before have we reached the halfway point in a season with so many different plot lines and so many of them unresolved.

I wonder if the reason might have anything to do with the fact that the number of episodes per season will be decreasing in the last few seasons.

It seems to me the writers just may be biting off more than they can chew here. I wonder how in the world they will ever be able to resolve all these different plots. Foremost in my mind is Stan's new lady friend. This has been a very strange plot insofar as we seem to have gotten just one detail about this lady in each episode and I can't really remember what more we know about her except that she goes to that gym and she talks a lot. I have to wonder just what this lady is about and if we will ever find out what's going on between Stan and her. I know many people think she must be working for some govt agency and I must admit that would seem to be likely. But why have they been advancing this plot line at a snail's pace? They could have just had her appear in half the number of episodes they did. I sure do wish there were some other events concerning this lady so that we could have half a chance to figure out just what is going on there.

Edited April 15, 2017 by MissBluxom

[White Sheep]

On 4/13/2017 at 6:50 PM, Umbelina said:

The report that Elizabeth made doubting Philip's loyalty and saying he liked America too much was reference in this episode by both Claudia and Gabe as well.  I listed some other stuff in the "end" thread as well.

I just have this gut feeling that Gabriel is leaving specifically because he knows it might come to eliminating Philip, whether from desperation moves by Center, as ordered from their bosses, or just that he sees the writing on the wall.  It resonated with me, and in reading some of the reviews (in the review thread) of this episode, it stood out to them as well.  As I mentioned, I'm rewatching the series, and a lot of stuff keeps coming up.  Warnings to Philip from Gabe, Gabe telling that story about having to kill his friend, and many others back in the USSR, when things were paranoid and crazy, (as they are beginning to be again now as the USSR is in it's dying days, unknown to our leads of course.)

Gabriel decides to leave/quit.  It's huge.  That leads me to "Why?"  My best answer is he doesn't want to kill Philip, and he knows it may go that way.  "May" being the operative word here.

I forget about Gab killing his buddy for no real reason than other he was told to. Like how you prove loyalty and worth in the mafia.  I agree he giving them as many signals as he can. They are not even receiving them. Let alone ignoring them.  

If they send a KGB hit team after the Jennings. They better bring a good supply of body bags for the KGB team people. 

 

How will henry react to mom and dad telling them they are spies.  As a kid from the 1980's. I would be like cool. Where do I get MY machine guns, frag genades, and explosives!!  

 

Gab was working for the KGB since before ww2. Than he WAS not a nobody.   I mean he had rank and status after the war. First he was alive and 2nd he killed a lot of Germans. Than he also was seen by the KGB leadership as a guy who follow orders and get things done. 

I would think a gulag prison guard would be the lowest rank in the USSR.  Just like a prison guard in the USA is at the bottom of the law enforcement pyramid. 

Edited April 15, 2017 by White Sheep

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, White Sheep said:

I forget about Gab killing his buddy for no real reason than other he was told to. Like how you prove loyalty and worth in the mafia.  I agree he giving them as many signals as he can. They are not even receiving them. Let alone ignoring them.  

Why say they're not receiving them? He said it flat-out, but there's nothing in particular they would do about it in that moment. Does it seem like they didn't get it?

Edited April 15, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, White Sheep said:

How will henry react to mom and dad telling them they are spies.  As a kid from the 1980's. I would be like cool. Where do I get MY machine guns, frag genades, and explosives!!  

Henry is going is to be all about the tech and gadgets. He is going to be more upset that his parents have no version of Q than that they lied to him. 

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Henry is going is to be all about the tech and gadgets. He is going to be more upset that his parents have no version of Q than that they lied to him. 

If Philip wants to get Henry's respect back he should hotwire a car in front of him.

[ahpny]

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I'm going to be in the minority here but Young-Hee annoyed me as did Elizabeth's behavior when she was with her. I just didn't buy that relationship.

What annoyed me then, and continues to annoy me now, is how she's all broken up over the Young-Hee family disruption she caused, but seems to have moved past the latest murder of an innocent person without much concern at all. Her only real concern about the unnecessary murder of the hothouse guy seemed to be how it would affect Philip, and maybe not even really how it would affect Philip at all, but how it would affect their ability to continue their mission with Philip in a compromised mental state. 

Quote

They don't need to steal it. The company intends to sell it. The whole arc was poorly constructed. 

Exactly. They can buy it. They can also get it from any buyer if the company wouldn't sell for some reason. It's a plant with seeds that reproduces itself outside, probably all over the world - not exactly hard to get. And they don't need to steal it from the source company anyway even if they couldn't buy it from them for some reason.   

Quote

Also, Oleg's storyline better get some fire lit under it, 'cause he's my favourite character but this is dragging.

What I found interesting in this Oleg pursues-the-Black-marketing-guy story line is how Oleg must have been thinking that that could easily be him in that jail cell (or worse) tomorrow if the tape got to the KGB.

[MisterBluxom]

34 minutes ago, ahpny said:

What annoyed me then, and continues to annoy me now, is how she's all broken up over the Young-Hee family disruption she caused, but seems to have moved past the latest murder of an innocent person without much concern at all. Her only real concern about the unnecessary murder of the hothouse guy seemed to be how it would affect Philip, and maybe not even really how it would affect Philip at all, but how it would affect their ability to continue their mission with Philip in a compromised mental state. 

Exactly. They can buy it. They can also get it from any buyer if the company wouldn't sell for some reason. It's a plant with seeds that reproduces itself outside, probably all over the world - not exactly hard to get. And they don't need to steal it from the source company anyway even if they couldn't buy it from them for some reason.   

What I found interesting in this Oleg pursues-the-Black-marketing-guy story line is how Oleg must have been thinking that that could easily be him in that jail cell (or worse) tomorrow if the tape got to the KGB.

I have to agree with you. I found it very annoying as well.

I hesitate to make this one small point for fear people might think I'm nit picking. But I seem to have read somewhere that some of these newer GMO (I think that's the correct mnemonic) have something built-in such that you can't just plant them and harvest the seeds and then re-plant many more fields. I forget what it is or how it works. But I thought I should let you know that it just might not be as simple as it should appear to be.

Can you imagine how some of these companies can actually design living things so that they cannot reproduce? I find that downright chilling.

Edited April 15, 2017 by MissBluxom

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, White Sheep said:

I forget about Gab killing his buddy for no real reason than other he was told to. Like how you prove loyalty and worth in the mafia.  I agree he giving them as many signals as he can. They are not even receiving them. Let alone ignoring them. 

I must have blocked this out - but my memory of Gabriel's story is that he arrested his friend, not killed him. That being said (if my memory was right about that), he was likely taking him to his death at someone else's hands.

55 minutes ago, ahpny said:

What annoyed me then, and continues to annoy me now, is how she's all broken up over the Young-Hee family disruption she caused, but seems to have moved past the latest murder of an innocent person without much concern at all. Her only real concern about the unnecessary murder of the hothouse guy seemed to be how it would affect Philip, and maybe not even really how it would affect Philip at all, but how it would affect their ability to continue their mission with Philip in a compromised mental state.

Her angst over Young-Hee doesn't bother me, personally. Unlike most of her marks, Elizabeth developed a relationship that became, to her, almost a real friendship. She let her guard down and enjoyed her companionship, she even had fun - which must be rare in her life. So Young-Hee was to Elizabeth, very much like Martha was to Phillip (without the sex, of course). She went into the operation thinking she could get the info in a different way - but instead had to do a very personal betrayal that ruined her (almost) friend's life.

On the other hand, the guy in the hothouse wasn't someone she knew at all - and Elisabeth is able to detach to a frightening degree in most circumstances. But it's getting harder for her to do.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Clanstarling

[EtheltoTillie]

On 4/13/2017 at 1:06 AM, Kathemy said:

That would be the final irony - the Center sending the girl after Stan to figure out what Philip has told him, which would end up with her blowing Philip's cover through sheer incompetence.

It might be the best option yet.

Maybe that's why they have Phillip secretly trying to figure out who she is instead of asking. 

[MisterBluxom]

On 2017-04-13 at 1:06 AM, Kathemy said:

That would be the final irony - the Center sending the girl after Stan to figure out what Philip has told him, which would end up with her blowing Philip's cover through sheer incompetence.

It might be the best option yet.

I think that is a very interesting possibility and a very clever take on her.

[EtheltoTillie]

Off topic. All show fans should watch Keri and Matthew on Watch What Happens Live. I usually don't watch that show but noticed they were on. It's good. Matthew sounds a bit like Richard Burton IRL. 

You can watch on Bravo web site. 

Edited April 15, 2017 by GussieK

[Emeraldcity]

I have been fascinated in reading everyones thoughts about this episode.  I feel that the whole season is just showing how the USSR unraveled.

It is not like the show is a true work of fiction. The writers are completely beholden to history. By my reckoning if the first season was set in 1981 it is now 1984. Oleg is seeing the corruption which led to Gorbachov taking over and Perestroika being implemented in 1985.  Oleg is an ethical person. It wouldnt suprise me that his character isnt being set up to be part of glasnost. 

Meanwhile Phillip has been struggling with his role since the beginning of the series. This also parallels the changes that began in the USSR in the late 70s and early 80s. Specifically how the populace turned against the government due to Russias bloody intervention in Afghanistan.  This was the beginning of the end of Russia not being able to keep the soviet union intact; too many good soldiers questioning the leadership.

Meanwhile Elizabeth is finally showing the kinks in her steely armour. This episode beautifully framed Elizabeths devotion to the cause as the exact mirror of Paige's feelings with her own religious conversion. I though the psychiatrists inference about hiding stress is truly a portent to what will eventually happen to Elizabeth.  By 1991 the USSR is dissolved and it happened relatively quickly without a shot being fired - so to speak. In fact it dissolved so quickly that many people were left floundering on both sides of the cold war. Elizabeth is a true believer and when she finally sees that those in power have not been as devoted as she was to the cause I would like to see her quietly accepting the change rather than fighting it. For her own sake more than anything else.

I suppose the big question is whether E and P hand themselves in to the US authorities or simply walk away from the KGB.  Whilst there will probably be some drama in the show relating to the KGB trying to silence them, in real life people like the Cambridge spies just kept on with their regular lives post cold war.  More interesting perhaps I would be to see what becomes of Stan. I always have seen him as a Robert Hanssen type.  And of course Martha...poor Martha. Maybe she will meet up with Oleg and have some sort of life in Russia.

I assume the whole episode is really just a harbinger for the end as 'crossbreed' must refer to Paige as being both Russian and American. 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Emeraldcity said:

I assume the whole episode is really just a harbinger for the end as 'crossbreed' must refer to Paige as being both Russian and American.

I didn't think of it referring to Paige, great catch. The title serves a dual purpose then - the "mundane" one - the new strain of wheat, and the Paige reference.

[dubbel zout]

7 hours ago, GussieK said:

Maybe that's why they have Phillip secretly trying to figure out who she is instead of asking. 

Philip is following Stan's girlfriend on his own. No one told him to do it. Or by "they" do you mean the writers?

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Her angst over Young-Hee doesn't bother me, personally. Unlike most of her marks, Elizabeth developed a relationship that became, to her, almost a real friendship. She let her guard down and enjoyed her companionship, she even had fun - which must be rare in her life. So Young-Hee was to Elizabeth, very much like Martha was to Phillip (without the sex, of course). She went into the operation thinking she could get the info in a different way - but instead had to do a very personal betrayal that ruined her (almost) friend's life.

On the other hand, the guy in the hothouse wasn't someone she knew at all - and Elisabeth is able to detach to a frightening degree in most circumstances. But it's getting harder for her to do.

Yeah, I think Elizabeth in the pats had an easier time--partly due to luck--to being able to separate the world into people who were like her and not like her. the whole scene with Betty (which I really hated, personally) was almost OTT in how much it forced Elizabeth to identify with Betty despite her being American. She hit like over a dozen buttons that were like Elizabeth so she identified with her. Young-Hee wasn't just somebody she liked, she was somebody she could like because she was like her--an immigrant to the US who grew up in a very different world. Those experiences have opened her more to the idea of being able to feel something in common with people who weren't dedicated to her cause like Gregory was. Now she's met this guy who in many ways is almost a cliche joke, but she has things in common with him in that he wants to feed the world and likes travel so he's more sophisticated. She doesn't want to have any connection to this guy, but she can't hold him in contempt or just see him as a nobody and she'd rather just not have to see him than be nervous something bad is going to happen.

Plus she's got Philip, the person who's always going to keep his own bad deeds front and Centre. Bad deeds that are hers to, really.

It's funny now I think about it that I've seen comments elsewhere about how Philip is like such a mess in this ep and actually he isn't. He's not still moping over the bug guy. Really the point when he was in despair about it was literally right after he found out about it. It's not like the show's devoted two episodes to him still being in shock. I think at this point all the characters somewhat use Philip as a kind of receptacle for any qualms they themselves might have. They can talk about how Philip is taking it because that's the main practical concern, but that also, for the first time, forces them or gives them a chance to talk about it with each other. It was actually Elizabeth who talked to Gabriel about her qualms in this ep. It's just where Philip says "there's something wrong with this/us" she says "Is there something wrong with me?"

Some think of Philip as the weak one, but one could also look at it as Philip being the first person to catch this virus and so having more time to understand it and accept it. It makes sense that Elizabeth wouldn't want to bring her own fears to Philip because she knows that her bad feelings are right even if he just comforts her verbally. But she's just started dropping hints to Gabriel.

[margol29]

I am really puzzled by the Mischa storyline. Why devote so much time to get him to America just to send him back to the Soviet Union without meeting P & E? Unless there is going to be a payoff in up coming episodes. This season is really set at a slow pace. I am enjoying the acting and all the small nuances. But I kind of crave some real action like we had in past seasons. I hope this season is going somewhere but I have yet to figure it out.

[EtheltoTillie]

12 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Philip is following Stan's girlfriend on his own. No one told him to do it. Or by "they" do you mean the writers?

Yes, the writers.  I forgot to correct my unclear antecedent.

Edited April 15, 2017 by GussieK

[C. Toastncrunch]

I totally thought they were going to eat those boots, too! The picture on my television was too dark, so I didn't see the blood, either; I just thought they were some really dirty boots. Makes a LOT more sense now that I know it was blood.

[spaceghostess]

On 4/12/2017 at 10:15 PM, J-Man said:

Paige being taken to meet Gabriel reminded me of Guy introducing Rosemary to the Castevets ("Rosemary's Baby.")

OMG, yes. This, exactly. That was one of the creepiest things in RB (I've only seen the movie, not read the novel)--how the witches were your friends and neighbors; the kooky old couple next door, your ob-gyn. I have no doubt that Gabe's introduction was 100 percent "Commie Grandpa" and zero percent "Master Manipulator & Giver of Kill Orders" in tone. He's a tool to normalize what Paige perceives as their job. Do P&E see him as family and have affection for him? Absolutely. That doesn't make it good or healthy for them to lead their child into seeing him that way--although it's certainly in keeping with Elizabeth's pragmatic approach to handling Paige. P&E's streak of sentimentality re: Gabriel makes perfect sense in that he's a father figure to them--the only one they have--but even he can no longer stomach what their work does to families.

[Inquisitionist]

21 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I must say that I'm a little bewildered by this season. Never before have we reached the halfway point in a season with so many different plot lines and so many of them unresolved.

I wonder if the reason might have anything to do with the fact that the number of episodes per season will be decreasing in the last few seasons.

This season has 13 episodes, just like every prior season.  Next year, the final season is scheduled to have only 10 episode.

But I also have been finding the pace of the storytelling a bit perplexing this season.  Last season was so tight and compelling, but this is feeling a bit more like season 3, where I felt the Kimmie and Zinaida storylines dragged at times.  The lack of a Rezidentura and the losses of Martha and Nina may be taking a toll. 

[jjj]

Yes, I trust the showrunners, but I miss the regular, almost-weekly sense of tension and precipice of discovery that this show had in the past.  So many episodes in previous seasons were taut, and this is a very different rhythm.  I assume it will all come together in some sort of confrontation in the final episode or two of this season, but it is a slow ride getting there.  We also do not have as many fields of activity -- the FBI office is no longer a place of weekly intrigue, the Rezidentura and its compelling characters is sorely missed.  Oleg dealing with Russian bureaucracy is nothing like the Rezidentura intrigue. 

15 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

But I also have been finding the pace of the storytelling a bit perplexing this season.  Last season was so tight and compelling, but this is feeling a bit more like season 3, where I felt the Kimmie and Zinaida storylines dragged at times.  The lack of a Rezidentura and the losses of Martha and Nina may be taking a toll. 

[crgirl412]

12 hours ago, Emeraldcity said:

I have been fascinated in reading everyones thoughts about this episode.  I feel that the whole season is just showing how the USSR unraveled.

It is not like the show is a true work of fiction. The writers are completely beholden to history. By my reckoning if the first season was set in 1981 it is now 1984. Oleg is seeing the corruption which led to Gorbachov taking over and Perestroika being implemented in 1985.  Oleg is an ethical person. It wouldnt suprise me that his character isnt being set up to be part of glasnost. 

Meanwhile Phillip has been struggling with his role since the beginning of the series. This also parallels the changes that began in the USSR in the late 70s and early 80s. Specifically how the populace turned against the government due to Russias bloody intervention in Afghanistan.  This was the beginning of the end of Russia not being able to keep the soviet union intact; too many good soldiers questioning the leadership.

Meanwhile Elizabeth is finally showing the kinks in her steely armour. This episode beautifully framed Elizabeths devotion to the cause as the exact mirror of Paige's feelings with her own religious conversion. I though the psychiatrists inference about hiding stress is truly a portent to what will eventually happen to Elizabeth.  By 1991 the USSR is dissolved and it happened relatively quickly without a shot being fired - so to speak. In fact it dissolved so quickly that many people were left floundering on both sides of the cold war. Elizabeth is a true believer and when she finally sees that those in power have not been as devoted as she was to the cause I would like to see her quietly accepting the change rather than fighting it. For her own sake more than anything else.

I suppose the big question is whether E and P hand themselves in to the US authorities or simply walk away from the KGB.  Whilst there will probably be some drama in the show relating to the KGB trying to silence them, in real life people like the Cambridge spies just kept on with their regular lives post cold war.  More interesting perhaps I would be to see what becomes of Stan. I always have seen him as a Robert Hanssen type.  And of course Martha...poor Martha. Maybe she will meet up with Oleg and have some sort of life in Russia.

I assume the whole episode is really just a harbinger for the end as 'crossbreed' must refer to Paige as being both Russian and American. 

I hadn't thought of it that way!  She is a crossbreed in many ways! 

I thought they were just alluding to the what the scientists are doing on to strengthen the wheat. 

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, jjj said:

Yes, I trust the showrunners, but I miss the regular, almost-weekly sense of tension and precipice of discovery that this show had in the past.  So many episodes in previous seasons were taut, and this is a very different rhythm.  I assume it will all come together in some sort of confrontation in the final episode or two of this season, but it is a slow ride getting there.  We also do not have as many fields of activity -- the FBI office is no longer a place of weekly intrigue, the Rezidentura and its compelling characters is sorely missed.  Oleg dealing with Russian bureaucracy is nothing like the Rezidentura intrigue. 

I find Oleg dealing with Russian bureaucracy to be extremely baffling. Maybe there is more to the story than meets my eye. But I just don't understand the point of this story line. Where can it be going? More importantly, where is the entertainment value in this?

I have always enjoyed every scene in which Oleg has appeared and I wish he would get a whole lot more on-air time. But I have to admit to a massive amount of confusion regarding Oleg this season. What the *bleep* is going on with him this season? Would anyone care to make a guess?

[MisterBluxom]

On 2017-04-13 at 2:23 PM, Sarah 103 said:

Henry would be a far better spy and would be a less sexy version of Oleg.

You may be right about that. It's really impossible to tell how Henry will develop in the future. But considering how large his recent growth spurt has been and also considering how much more he looks like a man now (instead of a boy), I think Henry could very well develop into a very sexy man.

I have often heard it said that a person's sexiest organ is the brain and Henry has an extremely high-powered brain. So ... who knows?

Edited April 16, 2017 by MissBluxom

[txhorns79]

Quote

I find Oleg dealing with Russian bureaucracy to be extremely baffling. Maybe there is more to the story than meets my eye. But I just don't understand the point of this story line. Where can it be going? More importantly, where is the entertainment value in this?

His story reminds me somewhat of Nina.  I felt like the writers liked the character too much to let her go, so she just kind of existed in her own storylines, apart from everything else, until the point someone realized the character was going nowhere and it had to end. 

Quote

Her angst over Young-Hee doesn't bother me, personally. Unlike most of her marks, Elizabeth developed a relationship that became, to her, almost a real friendship. She let her guard down and enjoyed her companionship, she even had fun - which must be rare in her life. So Young-Hee was to Elizabeth, very much like Martha was to Phillip (without the sex, of course). She went into the operation thinking she could get the info in a different way - but instead had to do a very personal betrayal that ruined her (almost) friend's life.

I agree.  It was a relationship that Elizabeth deeply felt, and she clearly is not over. 

Edited April 16, 2017 by txhorns79

[Umbelina]

Well, with Gabe going back to Moscow, maybe we will actually get another Martha scene.  If anyone would look her up and let her know her parents know she's OK, it would be Gabe...

[Sarah 103]

On April 14, 2017 at 10:01 PM, ahpny said:

What I found interesting in this Oleg pursues-the-Black-marketing-guy story line is how Oleg must have been thinking that that could easily be him in that jail cell (or worse) tomorrow if the tape got to the KGB.

That was what I thought too. 

1 hour ago, MissBluxom said:

I find Oleg dealing with Russian bureaucracy to be extremely baffling. Maybe there is more to the story than meets my eye. But I just don't understand the point of this story line. Where can it be going? More importantly, where is the entertainment value in this?

I have always enjoyed every scene in which Oleg has appeared and I wish he would get a whole lot more on-air time. But I have to admit to a massive amount of confusion regarding Oleg this season. What the *bleep* is going on with him this season? Would anyone care to make a guess?

@MissBluxom. The point of the story is to show what is actually happening in Russia and how messed up/broken the system is.  @Emerald City offered a theory as to where Oleg's story is going, which I quoted below. 

14 hours ago, Emeraldcity said:

Oleg is an ethical person. It wouldnt suprise me that his character isnt being set up to be part of glasnost. 

One of my friends had a similiar theory, which involved Oleg evenutally becoming head of the Rezidentura. 

[MisterBluxom]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

That was what I thought too. 

@MissBluxom. The point of the story is to show what is actually happening in Russia and how messed up/broken the system is.  @Emerald City offered a theory as to where Oleg's story is going, which I quoted below. 

One of my friends had a similiar theory, which involved Oleg evenutally becoming head of the Rezidentura. 

OK. That's a very interesting theory.

Thank you very much for posting that. Well done!

[AllyB]

12 hours ago, jjj said:

We also do not have as many fields of activity -- the FBI office is no longer a place of weekly intrigue, the Rezidentura and its compelling characters is sorely missed.  Oleg dealing with Russian bureaucracy is nothing like the Rezidentura intrigue. 

In previous seasons what was happening in the Rezidentura and the FBI office all tied neatly into each other and the activities of the Jennings. The Rezidentura characters also had their own story arcs and office politics but they were usually working on something that tied back to the main story, like listening to the mail robot tapes, organising a plane to remove an asset (Martha), Nina finding out that the FBI were about to arrest a Directorate S operative, Tatiana working on procuring biological weapons, etc. While most of what the FBI agency did tied either to either the Jennings or the Rezidentura, often both. There were various different strands but they were heavily interlinked. Even Nina's last season in Russia was actually tied heavily to the rest of the plot. She was working with Anton Baklanov, who had been captured by the Jennings and was working on the stealth technology that Oleg was dedicated to replicating and the Jennings were sent to steal information about. Meanwhile in both the FBI offices and the Rezidentura Stan, Oleg and even Arkady were trying to help her. So her situation played a part in advancing their plots.

But right now there is no real connection between what Stan and Oleg are doing to the others apart from maybe that Oleg and the Jennings are both working on food supply. Oleg being approached by the CIA and Stan torpedoing the remains of his career as a result are obviously connected to each other. But it's still just not the same level of feeling like we're watching various interconnected strands of the same plot.

[Moose135]

4 hours ago, AllyB said:

In previous seasons what was happening in the Rezidentura and the FBI office all tied neatly into each other and the activities of the Jennings.

Have we even seen anything of the Rezidentura this season?  I don't remember any scenes involving anyone there.  Of course, since Oleg, Nina, and Arkady all having been returned home, I don't even know who is there these days.

[AllyB]

1 hour ago, Moose135 said:

Have we even seen anything of the Rezidentura this season?  I don't remember any scenes involving anyone there.  Of course, since Oleg, Nina, and Arkady all having been returned home, I don't even know who is there these days.

No. Tatiana was the only character we'd know there with Oleg and Arkady gone and she was definitely more of a support character than one I think the audience cared much for. I guess the idea is that the Jennings seem increasingly isolated as we are seeing less and less of the staff who support them or the decisions being made that cause the Jennings to be sent on the missions they are sent on. But I really, really miss the Rezidentura and Arkady. (And Gaad and the FBI office to a lesser extent.)

Edited April 16, 2017 by AllyB