Season 1 Talk

[Last Time Lord]

I don't think a single line of dialogue has crushed me as hard as "why didn't you tell me this when I was alive ?" did. 

[Guest]

And yet she kept going back for more with that group.

[ghoulina]

4 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

And yet she kept going back for more with that group.

Yes. Hannah had a habit of doing that thing that females often get blamed for - saying one thing, but meaning another. There were several times in the series (I'm not done yet, and not trying to spoil future episodes, so I'll be vague) where she would tell someone to go away or leave her alone, but her voice over stated she didn't really want that. 

I'm not putting all that happened on her. Absolutely not. But she did send very mixed signals to several of the people on the tapes, IMO. 

[truthaboutluv]

8 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

And yet she kept going back for more with that group.

Putting my response behind spoiler bars in case someone is reading the thread while watching the episodes. 

 

Actually, after the Valentine's Day event, we don't see Hannah having any interaction with that group for awhile. That's when she discovered the poetry group and became involved in that and well we all know what happened there. Then it was months later, where she came to Jessica's party and we clearly see that that was in part to Clay asking her to come and she even mentions how she was hoping her parents would tell her she couldn't go. She went and spent time with Clay at the party before she freaked out on him and then inadvertently saw Bryce rape Jessica.

And then she had no interaction with them until the day when she lost her parents' money and began on her path that ultimately ended in her decision to kill herself. On the tapes, she clearly states she didn't know why she went to Bryce's house and that she knew it was a mistake while she was doing it and that she knew some of the people listening would judge her for making that choice. And well of course she was raped. So I guess one can blame her for putting herself in the situation, which is exactly what she pretty much assumes might happen when people hear how she ended up in the situation.

But I think ultimately this is exactly what the show is trying to show. That all of these little choices and decisions that on their own seem meaningless can sometimes combine to create a perfect storm of tragedy. I also don't think were ever meant to see Hannah as perfect and it almost seems like some of the criticisms and judgement against the show are in that vein, YMMV. Like "well she did and said this so I don't have that much sympathy or agree that others were awful". And it's like of course Hannah wasn't perfect and hell yes she was at times just as self-involved and selfish as many other teenagers. But it didn't mean that the things that were done to her were meaningless or her fault, just because she herself wasn't perfect.

Edited May 11, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Guest]

I don't want perfect tv characters and I don't think it's only bullying/rape/whatever if the victim was perfect.  I just found some of it a bit unbelievable.  I'm not blaming the victim, I'm blaming the creators for presenting a story that didn't ring realistic to me.  

I'm actually glad.  This series should have terrified me but it didn't.  I was glad I watched but it was a slog and it didn't touch me deeply due to some of the creative choices.  Minette was the saving grace for me or I would've quit after 2-3 eps.  

[ghoulina]

19 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I don't want perfect tv characters and I don't think it's only bullying/rape/whatever if the victim was perfect.  I just found some of it a bit unbelievable.  I'm not blaming the victim, I'm blaming the creators for presenting a story that didn't ring realistic to me.  

Spot on. Hannah does not need to be perfect. And there are, sadly, too many cases of youngsters who really have been bullied to the point of suicide. It breaks my hear. My issue is simply the way THIS particular story has been presented. It's not ringing true for me either. I'm almost done, so maybe I'll change my mind with the last 1.5 episodes, but I doubt it. 

[ghoulina]

A few people have talked about Justin's behavior after the rape, and how it wasn't necessarily believable. And I can see that as well. I get him not wanting to actually turn Bryce in, out of the misplaced loyalty that this basically neglected kid has for the family who has given him so much. And I can also get him not wanting to tell Jess, to protect HER. Not his choice to make, but I can see how a guy would think he was doing the right thing in that situation. But what I don't get is him feeling comfortable just hanging out with Bryce after that. I have the worst memory, even though I just started this last week, but didn't he seem mostly fine and comfortable around Bryce until just recently? Or were there earlier clues that he was really bothered? Because, to me, they just seemed like regular bros. The not turning him in, okay....but I'd think he'd really try to keep his distance. That he couldn't stomach being around the guy. 

But, okay, the other thing was that I felt JESSICA'S behavior was confusing. Again, help me with my memory. Do the tapes explicitly say WHO was raped and/or WHO the rapist was? Because Jessica has listened to all the tapes; her tape was fairly early on and they're going in order, no? I know she was super drunk, and in and out of consciousness. But she was apparently awake once it actually started going. She told him to stop.  Did she not remember it happening at all? Did she just not know who did it? Did everyone tell her that it was a lie and she went into denial because it was safer? If so, what made her START coming out of denial? It seemed, to me, almost like she knew it was Bryce and was deliberately flirting with him in order to push Justin into admitting it. But how could she stand to be alone with him like that if she knew/suspected he raped her? And in earlier episodes, she seemed just fine with him. Or am I missing things? 

This isn't the worst show and I appreciate them attempting to address such important, but scary, topics. But the motivations and behaviors often really miss the mark for me. 

 

I mostly agree with Happytobehere's rankings. I'd place Bryce, Marcus, and Courtney at the very top. Bryce and Marcus clearly feel they can do whatever they want to a woman whenever they want. If they weren't in a public place, I could see Marcus pushing it farther just like Bryce did. Courtney clearly didn't physically violate Hannah like the guys did, but her callous attitude in dealing with aftermath of it all is what really puts her in the top tier, for me. She is all about self-preservation and seems to have no guilt at all. 

Justin is clearly a douche, but he has a lot more to explain his shitty behavior than the other more privileged kids, so you can almost feel some sympathy for him. 

Tyler is creepy, but could probably be okay if he got some help. 

Jessica was a shitty friend, but not atypical of a girl in that environment, just trying not to be the one everyone is talking about/hating on. 

Ryan is kind of an arrogant bastard, but I actually think he thought he was helping. Alex I think is actually a pretty good person, who let himself be too controlled by his desire to fit in. Zach I would see the same way, but because of his athleticism it's easier for him. Sherri seems the best of the bunch, but just made a really poor decision. Haven't we all. I'd say these bottom 4 are the ones showing the MOST remorse and the most desire to DO something, so I judge them less than the others. 

Hannah certainly wasn't without her flaws either; she treated people badly too at times. It's just unfortunate that she couldn't cope with what was done to her, when others make it through and move on after high school. 

Wow, I wrote more than I meant to. Hoping to finish the 1.5 episodes I have left this week. 

 

 

Sorry, meant to just bold a name and can't get it to go away!

Edited May 11, 2017 by ghoulina

[truthaboutluv]

I guess for me it's one thing to say a show and character didn't resonate and another to say the character kept going back for more, essentially suggesting that the things that happened to her were through her own fault. Same with categorizing her yelling at Zach in a cafeteria after repeatedly telling him to go away, as so awful and mean of her. Never mind that at that point she'd been groped twice, mocked for a picture being passed around and slut shamed. But her having a moment of frustration and panic when this guy who suddenly decides he's willing to put himself out there for her, is categorized as being mean and awful to him.

[ghoulina]

I don't think EVERY thing that happened to Hannah was her fault. When it comes to physically violating a woman, it's NEVER her fault. Period. Hannah going to dinner with Marcus did not mean it was okay for him to put her hands on her, period. But I do think she was sometimes unfair to people and there isn't always ONE person to blame when things go wrong between people. I also never said that Hannah didn't have a reason to not trust Zach's intentions. Quite the contrary. I get why she didn't. But if we're looking at things from EVERYONE'S point of view, I felt sympathy for Zach in that moment because he WAS trying to be nice and it was embarrassing and defeating to get yelled at like that. Just because Zach is popular, doesn't mean he has it all that much better than Hannah. In fact, the one teenager that I knew personally who killed herself was one of the most popular girls in our school.

 

What I'm saying is I can see both sides, and I sometimes think Hannah didn't try hard enough to put herself in other people's shoes. (This does not apply to everything that happens to her, or every person, but I can't get more specific in this episode thread.)

[MV007]

I think a lot of people felt sympathy for Zach in that moment.  I certainly did.  But there is a difference between feeling sympathy for Zach in that moment and then giving him a pass for taking out her compliments from the compliment bag.  Essentially, he was rejected.  It was painful to watch that happen to someone who was seemingly sincere.  But that doesn't mean he should retaliate and do something painful in return.  He knew what he was doing.  She made him feel bad and he didn't want her to feel any better.  Nevermind that he eventually found out she was in deep deep pain and did nothing about it.

[ghoulina]

Yea, I didn't say anything about him taking her compliments. Not cool. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

and another to say the character kept going back for more, essentially suggesting that the things that happened to her were through her own fault.

No one deserves to be bullied or raped and I'm not excusing any of the bad behaviors shown here but some of Hannah's own behaviors, especially toward the end of the series, were risky.  But it's not black and white.  The laws that were broken were not her doing.  Morally, she 'deserved' none of it.  

I imagine she's supposed to have judgment impaired by depression and low self-esteem but I didn't really see that portrayed in her demeanor or actions.  The show was so bloated to fill 13 hours, I think they could've done a better job of showing Hannah's mental state deteriorate.  I feel like her haircut was the main change in her, to some extent.  

[Glade]

Personally, I found this series was ultimately a let-down.  In the bigger picture, it's really Bryce who was the most responsible, as his raping Jessica in front of Hannah and then Hannah herself was by far the biggest trauma we saw Hannah experience and can't really be compared to most of the other incidents.  I don't think it's fair to act like every single of the 12 other people were equally as guilty as Bryce. 

Personally, I do feel for Tyler, who was bullied just as much (if not more) then Hannah before the series, and then was continuously bullied by the other tape-listeners (and others) afterwards.  He wronged Hannah and Courtney, but he still needs help and support himself.  So does Justin, who was so vulnerable to Bryce due to his own abusive childhood/adolescence, which is still on-going as he is now apparently homeless and friendless.  Alex was also clearly more vulnerable then everyone thought. Hannah doesn't have to care about this, but I do kind of wish the show or it's main characters/proclaimed heroes did.   Some of the tapes were just cruel and myopic, and ultimately hurt some kids who were already hurting themselves, with their own lengthy stories that hopefully won't lead to them successfully committing suicide themselves.  Personally, I have no real faith in season 2 and probably won't watch.

[Last Time Lord]

Just finished the season.

Wow this show was powerful. When the credits started rolling on the final episode, I was left feeling very raw. There's enough dangling plot threads that I can see how there can be a second season, but I'm still torn on whether or not one is absolutely necessary.

Call me cautiously optimistic. My pet theory for season two is its going to revolve around

Tyler's planned shooting hit list

I need to be honest. I never even heard of the book until the show was coming out. I really want to read it, now. It's like, $10 on Kindle. I may have to get it when I get paid next week.

[jmcd44]

I ended up feeling bad for Jessica. It destroyed me when she started to tell her dad what happened to her. Mine was in court when I had to retell my rape, etc & it was awful that he had to hear it. 13 years later & I still feel bad. 

[ghoulina]

Just finished. I struggled a bit to get through this show. I often found it unbelievable and hard to relate to. I don't think they always did the best job of presenting certain parts of the story in a real to life, understandable way. I didn't always like the idea of Hannah essentially blaming all these people for the choice she made. I didn't always like her very much. I found her to be a bit too self-involved at times. I often thought SHE could have done more; she wasn't the only kid struggling. 

But after completing all episodes, I now don't really think it matters. I think the overall message was still well made. This show was so raw and didn't shy away from showing what rape and suicide are like. I think that for young people watching this, it will help. I hope it will. I hope people will do more. 

And, while I found the writing to be lacking at times, the acting was really superb. I thought everyone involved really did a great job. When Hannah's mom found her in the tub, and kept telling her she was okay.....gah. That just killed me. I probably found that to be the most realistic reaction of the series. 

I was really sad to hear that Alex shot himself. I ain't gonna lie, I was hoping Jessica shot Bryce. Alex was a douche at times, but I think deep down he was a good kid. I judged these kids more by how they reacted AFTER the suicide, and Alex seemed to be one of the ones who felt guilt and wanted to do something. I guess the guilt got to be too much. Or maybe there was more to it. His father always skeeved me out a bit. 

I think the overall message is that you really never know what others are going through. This was a problem I often had with Hannah. Just because someone appears to be in the popular group, that doesn't mean their high school experience is all sunshine and roses. It's a constant battle to stay out of the line of fire and hope your friends don't find a reason to turn on you. It really fucking sucks. People just need to be kinder to each other. 

I'm glad Clay reconnected with his old friend, Skye. I think the best way to ultimately honor Hannah is to reach and bridge the gap and let people know they're not alone. Make an effort. Stand up for people. Step out of your head and try to put yourself in other people's shoes. 

It's weird, I didn't like it a ton while watching, but the last episode really got me and I think it's an important story. I'd show it to my kids if they were older. 

[Neurochick]

On April 1, 2017 at 6:27 PM, toogoodtobetrue said:

I can't even begin to imagine how much more hurt Hannah's poor parents are going to feel after listening to the tapes. And it makes me so damn sad that teenagers (and adults, too, but especially teenagers) can't see any other way forward with their lives and so commit suicide. It's profoundly sad in a way that is indescribable with mere words and this show really drives that home.

I felt sorry for Hannah's parents more than anything.  

I detested Clay.  I cringed when he told Mr. Porter, "we need to treat each other better."  Yeah white boy, go read a fucking history book, your race has treated black people SO fucking well, asshole.  I wonder what Mr. Porter will do with the tapes though, maybe it will make him a better counselor.  

The problem as I see it is, the schools are run by the inmates, the students, not the adults.  And because of lawsuits, teachers hands are often tied.  Mr. Porter should have called Hannah's parents, but he couldn't do anything about Bryce unless Hannah said, "he raped me."   (don't these kids watch reruns of Law and Order?)  I knew a woman whose son was beat up during recess.  The teachers were right there and did nothing; I told her they probably were afraid to do anything.  See everybody wants to stop bullying, but no one wants to admit that maybe THEIR kid could be the bully.

I felt so bad for Jessica, and for Justin too.  The only truly bad seed there was Bryce.  See, Bryce was the alpha, he was wealthy, he used his position in the school to do whatever he wanted.  When he raped Jessica, that's what the alpha male animals do, take the females of the weaker males.  Yes, high school is a jungle.  When Justin and Jessica had that talk in the previous episode, I felt for both of them because both of them were in so much pain.  Jessica was raped by Bryce, but Justin felt allegiance to Bryce because Bryce and his family took care of him when he had no one; also, Justin's dysfunctional situation made him a perfect friend for Bryce.  See, Justin, like his mother would choose survival over doing the right thing.  That what happens to a person who has dealt with abuse, insanity and dysfunction.  There was a scene where Justin went over to someone's home, maybe Zach's? and he was eating as if he hadn't eaten in days.  That's what stray animals do when you give them a meal, because they don't know when they're going to eat again.

ETA:  The character that I didn't like at all, was Marcus and I think it's because we, the audience never saw anything much of him, separate from school.  We never saw his home life, or anything.  So he was kind of, just there.  

I think the show was very smart to show us Mr. Porter's home life.  His wife was upset with him because he was spending so much time at school, she said how she was calling him and he never answered.  In his session with Hannah, his phone kept going off, he finally put it in his drawer.  That was probably his wife.  I think that showed, Mr. Porter wasn't an uncaring person, but maybe just not too good a counselor.  Also, in an earlier episode, he mentioned to the principal that the last school he was in, the kids were shooting each other.  Wow.  Imagine being a counselor at a school where every kid was like Justin, or where kids were in gangs and had family members in prison.  Maybe he didn't think the problems of this middle class school would be a severe as in an inner city school.

Edited May 13, 2017 by Neurochick

[PrincessPurrsALot]

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 10:39 PM, auntiemel said:

If Hannah had survived to college, she'd probably be better off steering as clear as possible from Hudson University, Crime Capital of the Goddamn World!

I saw the Hudson University pamphlets and laughed.  Go to Hudson! Get raped, murdered, or both!  That hellscape should be burned to the ground. 

[JBC344]

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 4:03 PM, Maum said:

I just thought I saw his head bandage and then his dad was talking about the open door policy which was a present time thing?

 

The whole time shift is a problem for me. There are times where it shifts in seconds and I am so busy working out the when that the emotional impact of the show disappears.

It feels more of a murder mystery than the unravelling of a vulnerable girl which is a shame- and this whole posturing driving around in each other's cars broodily is too much. It reminds me of that old horror film with Elijah Wood and Josh Hartnett and Jon Stewart where the high school students are possessed by water aliens and walk around all zombie-like.

 

So far the only poignant part (for me) is Hannah' s devastated mother.

This was a case when they did the flashback and time shift when Clay was sitting at the computer.  Flashback was him masturbating to the picture when it first came out (he didn't have a bandage) cut to present time (with bandage) him remembering it and then proceeded to delete the file.

[ghoulina]

On 5/13/2017 at 3:02 PM, Neurochick said:

I detested Clay.  I cringed when he told Mr. Porter, "we need to treat each other better."  Yeah white boy, go read a fucking history book, your race has treated black people SO fucking well, asshole.

I'm not really sure what race has to do with it. Just because Clay is white he can't tell the guidance counselor (who happens to be black) that the school, as a whole, needs to to treat each other better? That humans need to to treat each other better? He didn't single any one person out, or act like he was better. He felt a ton of guilt himself. And Clay certainly isn't responsible for his ancestor's behavior, IMO, and I don't really see what that has to do with the story at hand. 

[mojoween]

Clay sending that naked picture was beyond the pale, Tyler as creepy stalker or not, but I thought in this day and age Clay could have legitimately been arrested for child porn, if Tyler is under 18.  Of course this school sucks and no administrator seemed to find out about Hannah's earlier picture so clearly the inmates are running the asylum.

[Oscar]

Hey, I have watched the series recently and I have some things I want to talk about. I liked the it, it had flaws, it wasnt the best I have watched but it did leave a big impact. 

I want to talk about Alex. At the end they told us that alex had shot himself. It isnt clear if he actually did try to kill himself or if maybe Tyler shot him. But since he showed a few suicidal actions through the series im going to assume he did try to kill himself.

So Hannah baker killed herself, it shows what a huge impact it has and what influenced her. But while the people, 'reasons', experience the devastating results of the suicide most of them feel bad and have a lot of regrets. Clay talks about how they are so guilty for making her kill herself etc. 

And then when they are too busy regretting and talking about it, another person attempts suicide. In the show it feels like it is THE biggest deal that hannah ended it, which is logical, but Alex is just no big deal, no guilt. Do you have to make a tape to be remembered?

Also 3/4 of suicides is by men. People often know women are depressed and have bad thoughts but not of men. I am generalising here, everyone is different of course, but in my own experiences men find it harder to talk about the really bad stuff. 

I did not really get to understand hannahs point of view. I mean i get it but i didnt feel like i was with her, which you are supposed to be with the main character of a series. Alex however made a big impression on me. Forgotten in the mess. 

Suicidal thoughts are a very big issue, mostly with younger people. And what can we really do about it? 

Sorry for the long post

[kj4ever]

On 5/11/2017 at 4:34 PM, Winston9-DT3 said:

No one deserves to be bullied or raped and I'm not excusing any of the bad behaviors shown here but some of Hannah's own behaviors, especially toward the end of the series, were risky.  But it's not black and white.  The laws that were broken were not her doing.  Morally, she 'deserved' none of it.  

I imagine she's supposed to have judgment impaired by depression and low self-esteem but I didn't really see that portrayed in her demeanor or actions.  The show was so bloated to fill 13 hours, I think they could've done a better job of showing Hannah's mental state deteriorate.  I feel like her haircut was the main change in her, to some extent.  

I completely agree.  Someone who takes their own life is not mentally well.  I really think they should have explored that more - and maybe we will get a glimpse of that in season 2.  I know there are three sides to every story - your side, their side, and the truth.  I would like to see what Hannah's behavior looked like to someone other than herself and the boy who was madly in love with her.  We saw that she wasn't always a trustworthy narrator with Zach, and Jessica? I think said that Hannah is the one that stopped meeting them.  I'd like to see some of these things from their point of view just for perspective. 

[MV007]

That seems like a very delicate tight rope to walk.  I think the main purpose of the show is to shine a light on how we treat other people and the effect our seemingly small or innocuous or sometimes mean actions can have on another person.  If you start showing Hannah as erratic or bitchy or something else then it could lead someone to believe that she deserved some of what she got.  

Honest question, does everyone who commits suicide suffer from a debilitating mental illness?  Aside from say depression?  

[Guest]

I think that when your depression is severe enough to allow you to meticulously plan out and execute a grisly, painful suicide, that is about as debilitating and serious as any mental illness can get.  

I would prefer a show that shone a light on mental illness and treatment options rather than on teens being nicer to each other.   How people treat us isn't the main problem, in my opinion.   It's how we process life's events.  

[kj4ever]

1 hour ago, MV007 said:

That seems like a very delicate tight rope to walk.  I think the main purpose of the show is to shine a light on how we treat other people and the effect our seemingly small or innocuous or sometimes mean actions can have on another person.  If you start showing Hannah as erratic or bitchy or something else then it could lead someone to believe that she deserved some of what she got.  

Honest question, does everyone who commits suicide suffer from a debilitating mental illness?  Aside from say depression?  

No one is ever nice all the time, including Hannah.  If someone were to believe that Hannah deserved what she got they would be an idiot and probably think that already!  The fact that we had glimpses of a not so perfect Hannah is part of what intrigued me about this series.

That is a great question and I'm not sure.  I almost saw shades of undiagnosed bi-polar in Hannah.  Her Mom saying how she'd be running around the house singing then the next day withdrawn in her room.  Granted that could be every teen in America I suppose but it also sounds like the high/low swings a person suffering from it has.  People who are undiagnosed or not on their meds that are bi-polar can be exhausting, and just a few of the comments about not wanting to deal with her drama, several called her a drama queen, or 

Spoiler

Clay automatically thinking that she was making Jeff's death about her.

Spoiler

 

 

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think that when your depression is severe enough to allow you to meticulously plan out and execute a grisly, painful suicide, that is about as debilitating and serious as any mental illness can get.  

I would prefer a show that shone a light on mental illness and treatment options rather than on teens being nicer to each other.   How people treat us isn't the main problem, in my opinion.   It's how we process life's events.  

I love this.  We will never get teens to be sweet and nice all the time.  Sure there are some people that can be reached but let's face it, humans suck.  These kids need the tools to deal with life when things aren't all coming up roses, and people need to recognize the signs when someone desperately needs help.

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, kj4ever said:

 These kids need the tools to deal with life when things aren't all coming up roses, and people need to recognize the signs when someone desperately needs help.

I've kinda been saying this for a couple years. I feel like we as a society are very focused learning as facts and figures, but have forgotten to teach our kids how to survive in the larger world.

[truthaboutluv]

YMMV but I feel like this contradicts the notion that this should be more about teens learning to cope with mental illness than about being nicer to each other. My question is why does it have to be an either or. It may seem trite and simplistic but I do believe that one way to teach kids to survive in a larger world is to teach them to be kinder to people. No, everyone will never be perfect and nice all the time and human beings can be awful.

But in my opinion a lot of issues in this world comes down to plain intolerance - intolerance of people who are different, intolerance of different religions, different ideologies, etc. So yeah maybe it is naive or trite but I do think a big step in helping kids grow up to be better equipped at handling life is to simply teach them to be kind. No, they don't have to be friends with everyone or like everyone but just don't be an unnecessary asshole to people. 

And of course mental health is equally important. And YMMV but I felt like it was obvious that Hannah was extremely depressed by the time she killed herself, without the show ever having to say the word depression.

Edited May 20, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Snow Fairy]

I just watched the last episode and plan to read this whole topic... but I have to write something first.

To me it seemed that Tyler removed Alex's pictures because he remembered Alex defended him, in that flashback we saw. Like he decided Alex wasn't all that bad.

I'm glad they're doing season 2, all those stories need closure. 

 

edit

I don't think Sheri's mistake was one so big. OK, she knocked down the stop sign and didn't report it. But the people driving that crossroad should have been more careful - they knew the streets (as far as I know), they knew that there's supposed to be a stop sign. They were locals. I mean, I know all the roads and signs in my town and on the roads I'm taking. 

That accident was a bit weird to me

Edited May 16, 2017 by Snow Fairy

[MV007]

I don't know the answers either.  I just wonder if you go down the road of showing mental illness then will that be viewed as the overriding factor for Hannah's suicide?  It's very easy to dismiss things when you can blame brain chemistry.  For example, I think a large portion of the intended demographic would say oh, that was just boys being boys, and she only killed herself because she was mentally unstable.  I'm obviously not talking incidents at the end of the show.  But more, the Alex, Tyler, Marcus incidents.  They may be dismissed.    

I was also speaking more to the intention of the author of the book.  There wasn't a lot of mental health talk in the book but it was hinted at ever so slightly.  And I think that was intentional.  I'm not saying it's not possible to show both but I don't think it was the author's intention to go down that road.

Edited May 16, 2017 by MV007

[DittyDotDot]

34 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

But in my opinion a lot of issues in this world comes down to plain intolerance - intolerance of people who are different, intolerance of different religions, different ideologies, etc. So yeah maybe it is naive or trite but I do think a big step in helping kids grow up to be better equipped at handling life is to simply teach them to be kind. No, they don't have to be friends with everyone or like everyone but just don't be an unnecessary asshole to people. 

Of course we should teach our kids to be nicer to each other, and it would be ideal if everyone was nicer to each other, but since that's not the world we actually live in, I just think it would be smart to also give our kids the coping skills necessary to deal with that too.

I just look at this show as it's nobody's fault and it's everybody's fault Hannah got to the point she did.

[kj4ever]

1 hour ago, Snow Fairy said:

I just watched the last episode and plan to read this whole topic... but I have to write something first.

To me it seemed that Tyler removed Alex's pictures because he remembered Alex defended him, in that flashback we saw. Like he decided Alex wasn't all that bad.

I'm glad they're doing season 2, all those stories need closure. 

 

edit

I don't think Sheri's mistake was one so big. OK, she knocked down the stop sign and didn't report it. But the people driving that crossroad should have been more careful - they knew the streets (as far as I know), they knew that there's supposed to be a stop sign. They were locals. I mean, I know all the roads and signs in my town and on the roads I'm taking. 

That accident was a bit weird to me

I thought of that too but *I shudder to think it* Bryce also stuck up for him and he didn't take his picture down.  Maybe because his sins were the worst.

[Snow Fairy]

Yeah, Bryce is a two time rapist, and Alex was "just" a shitty friend.

I don't think Tyler had anything to do with Alex's shooting.

[Eeksquire]

Quote

I don't think Sheri's mistake was one so big. OK, she knocked down the stop sign and didn't report it. But the people driving that crossroad should have been more careful - they knew the streets (as far as I know), they knew that there's supposed to be a stop sign. They were locals. I mean, I know all the roads and signs in my town and on the roads I'm taking.

Or, in my case, continue to stop where Stop signs used to be, but have since been moved.  But I totally agree with your larger point - unless either Sheri or Hannah were injured when they hit the sign, I don't think knocking over a sign is even worthy of calling 911.  Even if they had called 911, because it's not an emergency, it's not as though an officer would be posted to stand there and direct traffic or that public works would be dispatched to fix the sign in the middle of the night.  

[MV007]

I think if you knock over a stop sign you should call the police immediately.  It's a pretty shitty thing to do to knock one over and just leave.  Even if you don't contemplate someone dying, you definitely can foresee an accident which could cause serious damage to the cars and varying degrees of injuries.  

[kj4ever]

16 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

Or, in my case, continue to stop where Stop signs used to be, but have since been moved.  But I totally agree with your larger point - unless either Sheri or Hannah were injured when they hit the sign, I don't think knocking over a sign is even worthy of calling 911.  Even if they had called 911, because it's not an emergency, it's not as though an officer would be posted to stand there and direct traffic or that public works would be dispatched to fix the sign in the middle of the night.  

A stop sign in my neighborhood was ran down and it took them 2 weeks to put it back up.  After a week they put this little temporary one up because of everyone complaining but it was like two feet from the ground and people couldn't see it

[DittyDotDot]

I think the point of Sheri and the stop sign wasn't that she actually did something terrible, but in contrast to the other kids, she was taking responsibility for her role in it. Instead of denying it happened altogether, she went to the other car crash survivor and tried to help. And, she felt guilty about her actions even if they weren't all that big of a deal in the end. 

[ghoulina]

Also, Sherri's actions weren't entirely intentional. She didn't mean to knock down the stop sign, and her immediate reaction was out of self preservation, not a desire to harm others. A lot of the other kids' actions (especially Bryce) were intentionally mean and hurtful. 

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Also, Sherri's actions weren't entirely intentional. She didn't mean to knock down the stop sign, and her immediate reaction was out of self preservation, not a desire to harm others. A lot of the other kids' actions (especially Bryce) were intentionally mean and hurtful. 

Exactly.

[Chas411]

I thought Jessica was a bit of a bitch - Alex wasn't great either. Jessica was very quick to turn on Hannah the minute she was threatened that Alex might like her more. Both seemed happy to use Hannah until it was time to trade up. I guess it's common enough that this kind of stuff happens in high school - it doesn't make it any less hurtful though especially since Hannah seemed like someone who needed friends. 

What's the story with Fonzie - the 35 year old high school student. I can't figure out where he fits into everything or why he keeps popping up everywhere Clay is.

One thing confused me - who's telling the truth about Monets? Did Hannah stop going first? Does this mean she's an unreliable narrator.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Chas411

[Chas411]

I don't see why Alex thought he could have saved Hannah by not causing the eventual slap fight between her and Jessica. Jessica has clearly opted out of the relationship and would have had no interest in a helping Hannah. She lost interest in her friendship with Hannah the minute her relationship with Alex began.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 5/3/2017 at 0:11 PM, starri said:

Brad does seem to have the same kind of moony-eyed thing that Ryan has going on, even though he seems a bit more grounded.  I don't know if it's completely crazy.

But they're supposed to live in the Bay Area, right?  It's not like they're in the sticks where each is the other's only dating option.

That's true if you're an adult who can travel easily (driving from Vallejo, one of the shooting locations, to SF takes about an hour) but if you're a high school student, you're kind of stuck with the kids you go to school with and whoever lives in the immediate area. And on top of that, it's not altogether true that everything near the Bay Area is all hippies and rainbows and unicorns. There are definitely pockets of conservative people within the cities of San Francisco, Berkeley, and Oakland (I saw a car in Berkeley with a Trump sticker on it, an Asian woman I know was walking in San Francisco and was told by a passing stranger to go back to China), and once you get a few miles away from those three cities, things can get even more unaccepting of The Other (a few weeks ago, a car was spray painted with "KKK" and set on fire in Vacaville which is about 40 miles/less than an hour away from Berkeley).

Don't get me wrong - it annoys me when tv shows have two gay characters so they must automatically date. But just because you're within 20 miles of Berkeley/SF doesn't always mean that the community is liberal or that all the LGBTQ students are out.

Heh, and even though Tony looks like an adult and then some, I'm assuming that as a high school student he isn't 21 so even if he drives all the way to San Francisco, it's not like he can get into gay bars to meet people.

[MV007]

22 hours ago, Chas411 said:

One thing confused me - who's telling the truth about Monets? Did Hannah stop going first? Does this mean she's an unreliable narrator.

I don't think she's Elliot from Mr. Robot but this is definitely her truth

[Chas411]

Hannahs mother is absolutely breaking my heart. Kate Walsh deserves all the awards ever. Her dad too.

I sort of love Clays parents - his dad especially. I didn't think that I would.

Its really convenient that Tony manages to pop up EVERYWHERE and prevent Clay from fucking up royally.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Chas411

[Snickerdoodle]

On 5/21/2017 at 4:51 PM, Chas411 said:

 

What's the story with Fonzie - the 35 year old high school student. I can't figure out where he fits into everything or why he keeps popping up everywhere Clay is.

 

Had to laugh at this.  I kept thinking, "Wow, that 'kid' has A LOT of tattoos."  I've never seen a high school student with tattoos, period.  It really bugged me throughout the show.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

To be fair, Bruno Mars wasn't the only high school student on this show with tattoos and aside from Clay, most of them looked too old to be in high school. Then again, I watched the original 90210 with Ziering and Zuckerman so far be it for me to judge!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

9 hours ago, Chas411 said:

Its really convenient that Tony manages to pop up EVERYWHERE and prevent Clay from fucking up royally.

Either he's in training to become a professional Jiminy Cricket or some kind of super assassin!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 4/29/2017 at 8:49 PM, ShellSeeker said:

Oh, hell yes to this. When my oldest daughter was a junior, we were talking about college once, and her high school (like all high schools I'm sure) was always hammering on the students not only about applying to college, but pushing prestigious, big-name colleges because they want their metrics to look good. I told her, "Listen. After you get out in the world and you're applying for jobs, no one gives 2 shits where you went to college." She was gobsmacked. And I did go on to tell her that there are certain fields where a big name college might help open some doors. Like if you want to be a lawyer, then yeah, Harvard Law School will probably get you an interview. But by and large, no one cares. Not once in all the years I've been working has anyone ever asked me anything about college in a job interview. I think it helped put things into perspective for her. 

And once you have a job, people care even less where you went to school! While there are some fields where a prestigious alma mater will help, for the most part, where you went to school ends up being just one line on your resume. It can be a little more helpful if you are planning to live/work in the same city as your college/university after graduation because there are more networking opportunities but most people I know ended up moving somewhere else after college for various reasons (grad school, job opportunity, to be closer to family, or just because there was a city where they'd always wanted to live) so the actual school name didn't make a huge difference in their overall life experience. Because of all the pressure that high school kids can get about getting into a big name school, it's good for them to know that it's not the end of the world if they don't get into an Ivy League school. When my little sister and cousin were applying to colleges, I told them that ultimately it didn't really matter where they ended up because if they went to school A, their college best friend would end up being named Jane, and if they went to school B, their college best friend would end up being named Julie, but in the end they would still have a good time regardless of which school they attended. It's sad to see how much pressure some of these students are under to get into prestigious/big name schools. I want to tell them to relax because their lives will be fine if they go to a state school too. For the record, I'm not using that college pressure to excuse Courtney or anyone else who is trying to keep Hannah's tapes a secret so that it doesn't ruin their chances for Harvard or wherever.

[DittyDotDot]

8 hours ago, Snickerdoodle said:

I've never seen a high school student with tattoos, period.

I know a couple high school kids who have a tattoo, but they're small and unnoticeable for the most part. That was a lot of tattooing Tony was sporting. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

9 hours ago, Snickerdoodle said:

Had to laugh at this.  I kept thinking, "Wow, that 'kid' has A LOT of tattoos."  I've never seen a high school student with tattoos, period.  It really bugged me throughout the show.

That's because legally you have to be 18 to get a tattoo. Some states allow minors to get tattoos if they have written consent from a parent/guardian (a few even require the written consent to be notarized). Some states require the parent/guardian to be present when the tattoo is done too. Apparently Fonzie's parents were so supportive that they went to the tattoo parlor multiple times and sat there with him while he got all of his tattoos done!