Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[ostentatious]

Yeah, rewatching S1 last weeked I was struck by just how much I really like McKenna. I have a feeling that, like Amy Gumenick, she was one of the CW Vault actresses they were considering for Laurel. JdG was probably another. I've always liked JG, and she and Oliver had warmth together, they connected in the smile arena, they looked super pretty. The *character* wasn't compelling, but I thought from the start that McKenna was positioned the way Laurel should've been positioned. If JG had played Laurel we would have a very different show. 

 

And personally I didn't have to have a problem with Ray. I like BR. Ray could've worked really well. But by isolating him so he only interacted with Felicity until 15 minutes ago they gutted the audience's ability to get to know him via connecting w/other characters and to enjoy him. If he'd been introduced to everyone and gotten to branch out into scenes with them they could've avoided having people become ever more tired of him because his Felicity scenes were full of more objectionable behavior, but they had to do *something*.

 

He should've been brought in in the 310-313 timeframe, so like Laurel his presence was a done deal by the time Oliver got back. Very easy to do; Felicity knows about the suit, she brings him in as a last ditch effort to take out Brick. Makes it much more fun when Oliver gets back if he's dealing with Ray *and* Laurel all up in his cave and nobody supporting him in evicting them.

Edited April 15, 2015 by ostentatious

[nksarmi]

Lmao that's fine. I was talking to Quarks about that :p I honestly just really love their friendship. I hope it stays that way. Not because I ship Oliver/Felicity or anything, I just think that Barry is a good friend to Felicity and I think she needs that. They both get each other, they're pretty much platonic soulmates :p Also count me in on not liking Barry/Iris at all. I jumped off that ship the second they kissed. 

LOL I thought it would quote both of your posts when I did that, but oh well - you get the gist. :)

[statsgirl]

Now I haven't watched it since then, but he told Felicity in season two that if she ever changed her mind he would be there. And she sort of did, and she went to him, and then he wasn't "there", he was (rather openly) in love with and pining for another woman. Yet again there is another emotionally unavailable man in Felicity's life.

 

Poor girl's going to get a complex.  The men who say they like or love her are either emotionally unavailable (Oliver, Barry) or liars (Cooper, Ray).

 

Still, how could that not immediately make all of Felicity's new friends hate him and question her taste?

I don't know, but the episode ended with Barry pushing Raylicity. So disappointed in him.

 

I'll just echo what everyone else has already said here re: how Felicity and Ray met but also add that it's interesting that it was not truly how they met. They met first as a result of Ray first showing up at Felicity's place of employment, using her knowledge to then hack into the QC database, and then using said information to buy QC out from under Oliver. All that happened well before Ray bought the company Felicity worked for. To me, that all is way worse than the story they used on The Flash.

Acting and bad lines aside, the biggest problem for me with Raylicity is that what they show is the opposite of what they tell.  3x17 is the big one, when Ray tells Felicity he doesn't trust her judgement, after having told her previously he relies on it, and tells her he was always open with her, when he lied to her from their first meeting, and all the problems that have been pointed out.  Here I didn't even mind the "it's not as creepy as it sounds" line, what I really object to is Ray saying he's never lied to her.

 

I can't figure out if they're stupid or if they think I am. Either way, what is the point of Raylicity other than to stall for time, which they have been doing far too much of this season.

[statsgirl]

I'll have to check it out again but I expected Barry to say "Felicity, you know that guy you're dating?  Are you really sure about this?"  I know Barry has his own problems but wouldn't a good friend want to warn Felicity about the guy who bought her company so she would have to work for him, and bought out a whole restaurant for one dinner?  Not to mention isn't giving Felicity credit for the work she did on the Atom suit, not that Barry knows that.

[tennisgurl]

So, this episode. Ray has to see the writing on the wall, right? The Olicity was strong tonight, despite the awkward Raylicity PDA!

[DrSpaceman10]

Even though Felicity is supposedly in love with Oliver, she doesn't seem all that conflicted when she's around Ray. Ray even seems more conflicted than Felicity. To me it seems like she's perfectly content to keep dating him and I don't get how we're going to believably get from this week's episode to next week's.

[Danny Franks]

Even though Felicity is supposedly in love with Oliver, she doesn't seem all that conflicted when she's around Ray. Ray even seems more conflicted than Felicity. To me it seems like she's perfectly content to keep dating him and I don't get how we're going to believably get from this week's episode to next week's.

 

Because Ray will probably make a manly, man's decision to tell the little lady what she's actually really feeling, and sacrifice himself on the noble altar of true love, giving his blessing for Felicity to be sexed by Oliver?

 

It seems weird, if Felicity looked happy with Ray after supposedly having some sort of revelation the previous episode. But it's the sort of thing that happens when you write to plot, and for events to impact on the audience more than they do on the characters.

[KenyaJ]

It seems weird, if Felicity looked happy with Ray after supposedly having some sort of revelation the previous episode. But it's the sort of thing that happens when you write to plot, and for events to impact on the audience more than they do on the characters.

 

The first scene between Felicity and Ray was so perfectly awkward and felt right considering where we left them in 318. But then it was like another group of writers who knew nothing about 318 came in and wrote the rest of their scenes. Considering Felicity doesn't reciprocate Ray's feelings, it was bizarre to see her not only being so affectionate towards him, but being that way in front of Oliver.

[NumberCruncher]

Yeah, the lovey-dovey interactions in this episode were blatantly out-of-place given what happened in the hospital.  You can clearly see that they were done for no other  reason than to justify Ray's existence in the plot of the current episode.  In any normal, real-life situation, Ray and Felicity would have called it quits by now, or at a minimum, been distant waiting for the inevitable breakup.  All the silly PDA with Ray and hanging off of him did was make Felicity look at best indecisive, and at worst, cruel for leading him on.  It's just yet another classic example of the showrunners twisting her character into knots in order to make Ray relevant and I'm not happy about it.

[Morrigan2575]

What I got from last night is that they both know it's over but neither one is ready to cut the strings because it's easier just to go through the motions than having to face the emotional fall out.

 

In the first Ray/Felicity scene, Felicity is all about work while Ray is trying to down play the emotional awkwardness of Ray saying ILY and Felicity running out on him.  They also, apparently haven't talked since that scene.  Ray was smoothing it out, going no biggie, ILY and whatevs we're cool.  While Felicity was a deer caught in a headlight.

 

Next odd Raylicity scene was when they were in the lab, Felicity starts to flirt and leans in but pulls back, she fell back into their old relationship but then realized shit this is awkward am I leading him on?

 

Later scenes weren't odd to me because they are/were a couple and going through several near death experiences.  First Ray is almost killed by Deathbolt, then Felicity is almost killed by Deathbolt, then Ray faces Deathbolt again.  The compassion and touchiness didn't seem out of place, they still care.

 

Final scene is when Ray really gets a clue, you see it in how he's looking at Olicity.  I think, that BR was right, up until that point Ray was in denial that it was over and thinking Felicity would eventually love him back.  I think (as of end of 319) Felicity is just going through the motions, she knows she doesn't love Ray, she knows she's in love with Oliver, she almost admitted it last night.  However, she's not ready to have that conversation with either Ray, Oliver or herself, so she's just floating along.

 

In a way it reminds me of Oliver/Sara last season.  I think both Oliver in S2 and Felicity now are just clinging to something because they're not ready to face the truth.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[blixie]

 

Ray even seems more conflicted than Felicity.

 

Yeah, the lovey-dovey interactions in this episode were blatantly out-of-place given what happened in the hospital.

 

I think I can somewhat buy the argument that Ray downplaying his ILY, as someone mentioned in the ep thread, as 'little l I love you' allowed Felicity to dismiss it too, and feel comfortable treating it like light fun thing where no one is lying, using, or getting hurt.

 

I think Felicity is a Queen of compartmentalization, and the last few episodes where the walls fell down between compartments have thrown her, hence her being all over the map. 

 

Still a terrible writing choice, but I can make it fit with Felicity, why the hell RAY wouldn't just be like yeah we both now know how much you aren't actually into me or the relationship so let's just NOT I don't know. 

 

 

What I got from last night is that they both know it's over but neither one is ready to cut the strings because it's easier just to go through the motions than having to face the emotional fall out.

 

This does not work at all for me because there hasn't been enough substance or depth to the portrayal of the relationship to justify how enduring all that awkward this episode was *easier* than just admitting there is no THEM. While he clearly feels more for her than she does for him, the relationship, nor his feelings for her has ever come across as more than superficial, he said ILY, but I don't really believe he does or that he's so invested he'd hang on beyond that back to back scenes of the Hospital and in Felicity's office. She gave him NOTHING in those two scenes, she couldn't even manage to humor him by pretending, she could only pretend in front of Oliver. UGH which makes her look pretty terrible, gross dumbass writers.

[dtissagirl]

Yup. I realized during the Flash episode, even, that it's not just that I know Felicity's in love with Oliver and that's why she can't really commit to Palmer. But I really really really don't believe that Palmer loves Felicity. I didn't believe it when he said it, I still don't believe it now.

 

I don't know if it's because I can't buy the acting, or because the character comes off to me as an artificial intelligence android running a software routine written by a teen MRA dudebro called Perfect Infatuated Guy. P.I.G. for short.

[Morrigan2575]

I don't know about that but it's totally possible.  Maybe the whole point is that they are substituting?  Ray did just lose Anna less than a year ago and Felicity "lost" Oliver in 301 and later again in 309.  I do think Ray/Felicity care about each other and are together out of convenience (so to speak) but maybe the whole realization is that they're both holding onto each other because of what they lost.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I think it's just a matter of making do with what they can have vs. having what they want. 

 

Ray can't have Anna and doesn't want to be alone. Felicity can't have Oliver and doesn't want to be alone, so they're not being alone together. 

[lexicon]

Yup. I realized during the Flash episode, even, that it's not just that I know Felicity's in love with Oliver and that's why she can't really commit to Palmer. But I really really really don't believe that Palmer loves Felicity. I didn't believe it when he said it, I still don't believe it now.

 

I don't know if it's because I can't buy the acting, or because the character comes off to me as an artificial intelligence android running a software routine written by a teen MRA dudebro called Perfect Infatuated Guy. P.I.G. for short.

 

I agree. There's been so much wtf-kery wrt to Ray's characterisation that I think this has gotten a bit lost in the midst of everything else there is to say about our resident Tin man but yes the speed with which he went front I'm still mourning Anna I shouldn't be kissing you to claiming to be in love with Felicity, was ridiculous. Even his motivation to be a 'hero' changed over the course of 2 episodes, as he literally said that he was building his suit because of what happened to Anna in one episode before changing to I want to save people, like specifically you Felicity, in the next. So yeah for me, Ray's feelings for Felicity are at best superficial (at worst transference of his perhaps more real feelings for Anna) and he'll get over it just fine, probably in the course of the next few eps, just in time to team up with Team Arrow and save the world because...plot.

[blixie]

I will say that I did love the Olicity/TA clips someone posted that excised all the rest of the episode I didn't give a shit about, and out of context w/o having tosee her hang on Ray, it worked. And I ached for Oliver when she almost confesses her love, Stephen does this anxious hopeful little step towards her/lean forward, and I have to remind myself that his feelings are so so obvious, and even though Felicity has been pretty clear about what she wants generally, she has never said it, and I forget how much he needs and deserves to hear that she is in love with him too. Until she vocalizes it he can continue to be in denial about the rightness of being with her. Part of him can't allow himself to think that her feelings are as huge a deal to her as his are to him, because then what the fuck is he even waiting for, and how much more of a Dopey the Dick is he being putting it off? Oh you two!

Edited April 16, 2015 by blixie

[quarks]

Warning fanwank ahead: 

 

It occurs to me that on some level, probably an unconscious one, that Felicity might be doing this in front of Oliver in part to remind him, now that the Arrow is "gone" (until season four) about what he could have.  That's not in the script, and it's definitely arguable, but it's a possibility.

[dtissagirl]

 and even though Felicity has been pretty clear about what she wants generally, she has never said it, and I forget how much he needs and deserves to hear that she is in love with him too. Until she vocalizes it he can continue to be in denial about the rightness of being with her. Part of him can't allow himself to think that her feelings are as huge a deal to her as his are to him, because then what the fuck is he even waiting for, and how much more of a Dopey the Dick is he being putting it off? Oh you two!

 

Oh, yes, imo the narrative is making Felicity's "I love you" into a great magical thing. Just consider she said "Jello" back to Palmer before running away, and now in this episode, she had to consciously stop herself from saying it to Oliver.

 

And then she said it anyway with the "people who love you" thing, that Palmer witnessed because of course he had to.

 

This show, you guys. Subtle as the elephant in the china shop.

Edited April 16, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Guest]

Even though Felicity is supposedly in love with Oliver, she doesn't seem all that conflicted when she's around Ray. Ray even seems more conflicted than Felicity. To me it seems like she's perfectly content to keep dating him and I don't get how we're going to believably get from this week's episode to next week's.

 

I think it's less about being conflicted and more about Felicity's super ability to compartmentalize. I agree that clinging to Ray and being all affectionate just didn't make sense (or was something I wanted to see) given what happens next week but at the same time, Oliver has made no move to change her mind about where he stands and Felicity said she wasn't going to wait for him. And she obviously cares for Ray (bleugh) so she's going to try to make it work even if she knows, in her heart of hearts, that it just doesn't compare. 

 

But I feel the same way as I did about Raylicity in the Flash. Overcompensating for what isn't there. 

[looptab]

And when has Felicity ever stopped before blurting something out? Oh, the torture.. :)

[Chaser]

Can I just say that "Jello" is now my phrase for things I don't care about.

 

Laurel and Felicity friendship. "Jello!"

 

Malcolm bonding with Oliver. "Jello!"

 

Lance and Laurel relationship. "Jello!"

[Password]

Reminds me of Chris Rock's "Whats 4+4? Jello."

At this point I think Felicity knows where her heart lies, and whilst I think she would break up with Ray because of Oliver, I don't think she'd break up with him for Oliver. At least not yet as Oliver hasn't made any offers. It's kind of weird what mama Smoak told Felicity about choosing between the two. Oliver hasn't availed himself so if Felicity breaks up with Ray, I'd like to think it would be because she doesn't want to settle when her heart lies elsewhere. It's not fair to Ray or her.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Password

[Chaser]

It reminds me of Supernatural; no one knows what to say? "Pudding."

[tennisgurl]

Maybe I am over thinking this, but maybe the reason Ray and Felicity are being so lovey dubby is because they are both overcompensating, because neither of them are with the people they really want to be with? 

 

Ray wants to be with his dead fiance (presumably), who died less than a year ago in show time, I think, and Felicity wants to be with Oliver, who feels like he cant be with her. So they are just putting their all into being in this relationship, that neither of them really want to be in.

 

At least, that`s a possible take. Ray does not seem to think too much about his dead fiance, so I might just be trying to rationalize how he is able to move on so quickly from the woman he is supposedly doing all this for. 

[rainydawn]

 if Felicity breaks up with Ray, I'd like to think it would be because she doesn't want to settle when her heart lies elsewhere. It's not fair to Ray or her.

 

Me too. If she breaks up with him, I want her to do it for herself somehow, not Oliver and I hope Arrow is going to squeeze in time to give us her POV, I want to understand what was going in her mind in the last episodes. Staying in this relationship all this time when she knows she doesn't love Ray instead of taking control of her life and be single if this is what was going to happen was not healthy or fair to anyone involved IMO. 

Edited April 16, 2015 by rainydawn

[dtissagirl]

Maybe I am over thinking this, but maybe the reason Ray and Felicity are being so lovey dubby is because they are both overcompensating, because neither of them are with the people they really want to be with? 

 

Ray wants to be with his dead fiance (presumably), who died less than a year ago in show time, I think, and Felicity wants to be with Oliver, who feels like he cant be with her. So they are just putting their all into being in this relationship, that neither of them really want to be in.

 

At least, that`s a possible take. Ray does not seem to think too much about his dead fiance, so I might just be trying to rationalize how he is able to move on so quickly from the woman he is supposedly doing all this for. 

 

I think it's two layers of trying too hard/overcompensating. There's the in-story one you describe, with Felicity and Palmer both settling for second best, but trying very very hard to make it happen.

 

And there's the external layer of the writers trying too hard  -- to sell Palmer to the audience as a viable choice for Felicity [not to mention sell him as a viable lead character on a new show] -- and overcompensating -- for the fact that the organic relationship that writes itself is F/O, but they decided to go with keeping them apart as the romance arc main story device. So by God they'll make the characters work for it. 

[Trini]

In "Broken Arrow", Ray got called 'Tin Man', and Roy got called 'Scarecrow'. So how would match up the Arrow characters with Wizard of Oz characters?

 

Dorothy -- Felicity

Lion -- Oliver

Tin Man -- Diggle

Scarecrow -- Roy

Wicked Witch -- ?

Glinda -- ?

Toto -- ?

[Password]

Problem is they're doing a poor job of selling them (Ray and Felicity) as a couple other than Felicity hanging all over him and flirting with him in front of everyone. I had this problem in the first half of the episode whereby Felicity was draped over him and flirting and caring. But it seemed AWFULLY shallow when she could tell Oliver she believed in him without draping herself over him and make you believe it.

Or they're selling it exactly right: shallow and cutesy.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Ray was his usual awkward self but Felicity was definitely overcompensating after that painful conversation she and Ray had at her office about the "ILY" with the lower case L (love Brandon's L sign; anyone else thought "loser"?) Plus she brought Oliver to Palmer Tech and asked Ray for help, so I think she was in "best girlfriend" mode. Until she ran out the door to go after Oliver.

 

The GIFs of Oliver's eye rolling at Ray are everywhere but there's also a small moment I found funny between Felicity and Diggle in the back where John looks at Felicity like "Your boyfriend is ridiculous" and Felicity gives this little shrug like "Yeah, I know." These two have such a bond that they can communicate with just a look (well, that goes for Oliver/Felicity and Oliver Digg, too)

 

[Lady Calypso]

Dorothy -- Felicity

Lion -- Oliver

Tin Man -- Diggle

Scarecrow -- Roy

Wicked Witch -- ?

Glinda -- ?

Toto -- ?

 

 

Wicked Witch= Laurel.

Glinda=maybe Thea?

Toto= definitely Malcolm

[statsgirl]

I think I can somewhat buy the argument that Ray downplaying his ILY, as someone mentioned in the ep thread, as 'little l I love you' allowed Felicity to dismiss it too, and feel comfortable treating it like light fun thing where no one is lying, using, or getting hurt.

 

I think Felicity is a Queen of compartmentalization, and the last few episodes where the walls fell down between compartments have thrown her, hence her being all over the map. 

 

Still a terrible writing choice, but I can make it fit with Felicity, why the hell RAY wouldn't just be like yeah we both now know how much you aren't actually into me or the relationship so let's just NOT I don't know.

I can think of a few reasons:

1.  Ray is socially awkward himself so maybe he just can't see that she's not that in to him, or maybe he sees it but ascribes it to Felicity's own social awkwardness;

 

2.  relationships where one person says "that's it, I'm out" end quickly, but relationships where both people care about each other (and I believe Felicity cares about Ray) tend to end slowly because neither really wants to acknowledge that the dream didn't work out and its gone;

 

3. Ray lost Anna fairly recently, and while his feelings for Felicity are not what his feelings for Anna were, to end his relationship with her would be another loss and pain, and maybe he just doesn't want that to happen.  It's nice having someone to share a bed with, to hug, and to work with, and know that she's there when you look up or have an idea that you just want to talk about,  and I can see why he doesn't want that to end.

[SmallScreenDiva]

 

"I know who you are."

 

It struck me last night how simple Felicity's words to Oliver are — and how true and powerful they are. She doesn't make big declarations like "I know you like I know my own name" or "I know you in my bones." The most emphatic statement she's made regarding this was to Ray Palmer and even then it was just a simple "I know him better than almost anyone." Felicity knows Oliver and Oliver's acknowledged this time and again by shedding his mask and showing his vulnerability. This is actually the scene that made me tear up last night, when Felicity tells him there's no more Arrow. Felicity saw beyond his frustrations with Roy's situation, with having to ask a fledgling vigilante like Ray for help protecting HIS city. She understood all that, allowing him to give voice to what he was truly angry about and afraid of. Oliver thought the struggle was between being Arrow and Oliver Queen, and however painful it was he made a decision to be the Arrow. But last night, both the Arrow and Oliver Queen were taken away from him. So who was he? The man Felicity Smoak believed in. Oliver's identity crisis is by no means over; at one point, he'll be Al Sah-him Warith al-Ghul, heir to the Demon. But for now, he's anchored by Felicity's faith in him.

Edited April 16, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[tv echo]

Actually, I kinda see Oliver as Dorothy.  Ever since he got shipwrecked on that island, he's been trying to find his way back home.  Only he doesn't know where home is anymore because he doesn't know who he is anymore.

[steeledwithakiss]

I kept thinking, after watching last night episode, that all I wanted at the start of the season was Oliver and Felicity to choose each other. Oliver over being only the Arrow (realizing he can actually be Oliver Queen and the Arrow) and then later on I wanted Felicity to choose not being with the poor version of Oliver, for herself, because she deserves better than to settle.

 

No we have 4 episodes left and I'm afraid Ray is going to be the one opening her eyes and "let her go". Which I always thought was a lame way to end a triangle because triangles are always based on the freaking choice and at the end the person that is supposed to make a choice never does.

 

Then we have Oliver who is not going to be able to make a choice either because Ra's took that away from him. Oliver was dumped by the Arrow. If he decides to be with Felicity later on, it won't be a life affirming choice, it will be a "now that I lost everything I still have you I hope".

 

I don't know if I'll like it. Well no that's a lie, I know I'll hate the Ray part if he's the one making the decision for her, but the Oliver part does work with what happened all season. If he could not make that decision after dying or after seeing Felicity with Ray, nothing could make him want to start to live. He had to lose the Arrow I guess.

Edited April 17, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[statsgirl]

I have hope that Oliver will make the choice to fight Ra's himself, or with Diggle and Felicity.

 

With respect to Felicity, I think she's always known, and always told Oliver that if she could she would be with him.  After the "you're the man I....." in Broken Arrow after jello! in response to Ray, she's made her choice.  Given that Ray needs to be a superhero of his own, I'm okay with him being the one to initiate the break-up and keep some dignity for himself.

[BkWurm1]

I kept thinking, after watching last night episode, that all I wanted at the start of the season was Oliver and Felicity to choose each other. Oliver over being only the Arrow (realizing he can actually be Oliver Queen and the Arrow) and then later on I wanted Felicity to choose not being with the poor version of Oliver, for herself, because she deserves better than to settle.

 

No we have 4 episodes left and I'm afraid Ray is going to be the one opening her eyes and "let her go". Which I always thought was a lame way to end a triangle because triangles are always based on the freaking choice and at the end the person that is supposed to make a choice never does.

 

Then we have Oliver who is not going to be able to make a choice either because Ra's took that away from him. Oliver was dumped by the Arrow. If he decides to be with Felicity later on, it won't be a life affirming choice, it will be a "now that I lost everything I still have you I hope".

 

I don't know if I'll like it. Well no that's a lie, I know I'll hate the Ray part if he's the one making the decision for her, but the Oliver part does work with what happened all season. If he could not make that decision after dying or after seeing Felicity with Ray, nothing could make him want to start to live. He had to lose the Arrow I guess.

I understand what you are saying, I do, but I think the scene where Felicity expressly says she knows who he is whether in a suit or a hood makes it clear that by the end of the season Oliver will have his head on straight about who he is and that is both the suit and the hood. He may not have the option of the hood and may try to do good as just Oliver Queen for a while but I believe one way or the other he will have resolved his identity problem and by owning the different sides to himself who are all apart of the same man Felicity believes in, he will have fixed his distraction problem.

When he returns eventually to the mask (cause it's got to happen sooner or later) I would be surprised if he has the same problem...or at least to the same degree.

It's not as clear cut a choice, but maybe this is the compromise that he can live with that allows him to ease into something he'd told himself in black and white terms he couldn't have. Better yet, if he makes some kind of definitive statement about her not being a distraction but a source of focus and clarity I will be all set.

[tv echo]

I really like this pic of the Original Team Arrow...

 

(source)

Edited April 17, 2015 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

Brought over from the Flash forum, the All Star Team Up episode discussion thread

 

I don't disagree about how Ray has mostly been written as comedic, but as I went on to say, he being comedic doesn't really work when he's so out of step with the tone of the rest of the show.  It's hard for me to find Ray amusing when everyone around him was barely holding it together.  Too many times we had Palmer cracking bad jokes while Felicity was trying not to weep.

 

Really,... from what I can tell she usually joins in. It looks to me like she enjoys it when there is someone else who speaks her "language" or something similar. Yeah I guess it works better  if he has other comical characters to bounce off on, though he has Felicity over at Arrow so he hasnt been exactly alone and Felicity used to be the only one over there in a sea of broody characters. I didnt really see anyone wanting her to be chucked out of the show for that. Having "straight men" to bounce off on can be beneficial too Imo.

 

The first episode where Ray and Felicity meet they spar, but Felicity isn't weighed down by tragedy, so apart from Ray overstepping boundaries, I had not issue with the tone or timing of their interaction.

 

The next time they interact, Felicity is reeling from both Sara's death and Oliver's decision to turn his back on a relationship.  He buys the company she's working for and tells her she has no choice but to work for him in a aren't I so clever jovial way and so she quits and IS in tears as she struggles to leave him behind.  Then when her day gets even worse, (Oliver predicting his own turn on the cold metal slab coming soon) she does take Palmer up on the job offer so she has something left when the rest of her life built around the Arrow dies along with Oliver.  That's heavy stuff.

 

In the third episode, Corto Maltese, the tone isn't much of a problem.  Yes the heaviness of the first two episodes remain, but nothing horrid is being added in the moment and there is actually a feeling of hopefulness since Oliver is off to bring Thea home.  I had no problem with their interactions. 

 

But the next time we see Ray it's a mixed bag.   I had no problem with the early comedic stuff where he shows up at her house and then add embarrassing Vegas mom, funny stuff, awkward but it that was part of the humor.  Where he starts to lose me again is when he pops up while Felicity is hiding in her office crying and at that point all I want is for him to shut up and go away.  He's still in his sitcom while Felicity is now falling apart in a drama and their scene together does not mesh.  She by no means joins in on any comedy.

 

Episode 7, Draw Back Your Bow, starts off alright for me, but again, Ray blithely goes on staring in his comedy while Felicity is juggling Arrow duties, some IMO attitude from both Oliver and Diggle, and then a punch to the gut reminder that Oliver will not think about them having a relationship and again, Felicity overwhelmed by emotions flees to her office to bury herself in work but Palmer is all upbeat and the sudden shift in tone is very jarring to me.  The kiss, when it happens, didn't bother me. (Apart from of course Oliver had to be watching) The timing of when it happened made sense to me but bouncing between lots of intense depressing stuff to the unmarred perfect world Palmer lives in was, like I said, jarring and hard again to mesh with the rest on screen. 

 

I didn't have a real problem with the tone in The Climb.  Nobody is in a sitcom this episode.  (But the pinging of the phone incident caused other damage to Ray's character)

 

I think it's in the next batch of episodes where Ray takes the biggest hit in terms of tone.  In Left Behind everything is worry, grief and nerves stretched too thin - except for Palmer until we AGAIN see Felicity fall apart and he like a flipped switch suddenly shows his temper.  Midnight City we have Felicity dragging herself around in a numb vogue while he chirps and rambles and again all I want is for him to shut up.  And then he gets all weird, transferring his mission from honoring his fiancé to keeping Felicity safe and it's too soon and it's weird coming on top of the depth of her grief. Another tonal problem.  

 

The one point in these episodes where Ray works is IMO when Felicity comes to him about borrowing the helicopter and its pure comedy on all sides.   

 

In Uprising Oliver returns (no Ray) but now in spite of Oliver not being dead, he's in some ways even more lost to Felicity.  Then when Ray next pops up in Nanda Parbat, everything is falling apart again.  Thea is in a spiral, Felicity is pushed out of the important discussions, and Oliver is off to a near certain suicide mission to rescue the man that killed Sara and made Thea a murderer.  At the same time we have Palmer off in his own nutty scientist world with Felicity bopping back and forth between her world imploding all over again to trying to save Ray and it's very hard to reconcile how she's acting with him when we know what is happening outside Palmer island.  In order to make his scenes work, she has to act OOC.

 

In The Offer I didn't have any issues with Ray.  Tonally his scenes made perfect sense as did how Felicity was acting with him.   Suicidal Tendencies suffered from a logic problem and while the characters may have matched tonally, Ray was big jerk.

Public Enemy again suffered from tonal problems.  We literally saw Felicity go from worried/upset/crying in the hall to upbeat and smiling when she suddenly went into Palmer's hospital room.  I tried to tell myself she was putting on a brave face but on Palmer Island it also included wacky over the top stuff from her mom like the fake fainting and throwing herself at the doctor to distract him so Felicity could use the nano tech.  

 

I didn't have a problem with Ray fitting in tonally in the Flash episode where the tone was over all more light and comedic and I thought Ray worked wonderfully against the straight man that was Oliver in Broken Arrow.  But when Felicity is falling apart emotionally or she SHOULD be but isn't in his presence for no good reason, then I found his behavior that was meant to be quirky and comedic grating and unwelcome.  

 

Felicity has been a lighter comedic character in the midst of dark stuff but she doesn't pull out the quirk nor is the audience expected to laugh with her when heavy emotional stuff is happening.  They time her better than that.  Her character has been used to break the tension but the writers seem to understand when any joke is inappropriate while writing for her, but they don't seem to have pick up on that same rule for Ray. 

 

I do think Ray could be a much better character on the spinoff where he won't be isolated and kept out of the loop (which kept him from knowing how to be tonally in tune with the rest of the show)

 

Sorry for how long this got.    

[dtissagirl]

Thanks for that breakdown, @BkWurm1. It made me realize once again that while they've written Palmer as the protagonist of his own storyline [hell, his own sitcom within the show], they had to fit Felicity into his scenes, time and time again, regardless of what she was supposed to be feeling, or doing. Because she's really not driving the storyline when she's in Palmer's Island.

It also reminded me of how completely CLUELESS that reply was, that Guggenheim gave on Tumblr, about how he doesn't get the criticism that Felicity doesn't have a storyline. And he then added "she's part of an ensemble", I guess meaning if she's included in a storyline, she has one. Completely and utterly clueless.

[steeledwithakiss]

It's not as clear cut a choice, but maybe this is the compromise that he can live with that allows him to ease into something he'd told himself in black and white terms he couldn't have. Better yet, if he makes some kind of definitive statement about her not being a distraction but a source of focus and clarity I will be all set.

Yeah, knowing, whether it is at the end of this season or in s4, Oliver will have to be The Arrow and Oliver Queen (with Felicity by his side) does help. That's why Oliver's identity crisis is I think the one I'll have less problem making peace with. I still worry about Felicity because I really need her to take a stand, not only react to things.

[CabotCove]

No judgments from me--Barry and Felicity are all kinds of adorable. That's why I'll always scratch my head when I hear people talk about how Ray's getting unfair criticism because people can't get over their Oliver/Felicity bias. I've never had a problem with the idea of Felicity with Barry. Why? Because in addition to the fact that GG has good chemistry with EBR, Barry has always treated Felicity with complete respect. No stalking, controlling, showing up unannounced, flinging money around, etc. was involved. In fact, even though I preferred Oliver and Felicity, I had no expectation they would ever be a thing back in the S2 days (due to the apparent obsession with canon in comic book adaptations), so Barry was a welcomed flirtation in my mind.

 

You are not the whole fandom though, and to be honest its not like Barry is much of a threat for Olicity. He has never been a Starling resident and is all about Iris, has been for a very long time, and even though this is an adaptation their comic legacy is very strong and will likely be vital  for the TV show. He also has other romantic options on his OWN show. No Im not going to claim that I know that you specifically are biased about Ray, just pointing out that the fandom is big and yeah Imo Barry isnt really the best example of being welcoming to a romantic rival. 

Edited April 18, 2015 by Conell

[BkWurm1]

Imo Barry isnt really the best example of being welcoming to a romantic rival.

 

When Barry was introduced though he came without any guarantee that his show was going to get picked up. Iris was nothing more than a unnamed mention to show his empathy for Felicity's situation.  If the spinoff hadn't happened, he could have easily been brought back and used as a real rival.   We the viewers didn't know. There was no telling how people would react to him.  Plus, he pretty much showed up at the height of an Olicity build up in the first half of season two, so he could have been immediately rejected for getting in the way.    

 

I think one of the many differences between Barry's intro and Ray's was that Oliver was a apart of Barry's story while Ray and Oliver crossed paths in episode one and then six months passed.  Barry did things and Oliver reacted.  Felicity interacted with Barry and Oliver reacted.   It made Barry more three dimensional right away rather than what happened with Ray which IMO has only now in the last episode (two if you count the Flash Xover) been allowed to become more than just the weird guy that Felicity alone interacts with. 

 

No character is perfectly written and TPTB made Ray one note and that note was him reacting with Felicity and when he did annoying things like all characters inevitably do, there was nothing else to make up for his gaffes (like pinging her phone).   Barry was cute with Felicity but he was also entertaining with Oliver and Ray didn't get that chance from the writers until just now but he's been perceived in one growing negative way for so long by so many, now that he's been allowed to play with others might not be enough to alter people's feelings toward him.  

 

Ray isn't IMO a bad character.  I just think he was misused badly by the writers.  I do think he's redeemable but time is running out and there just isn't much time left for that on Arrow. 

[KirkB]

I know a lot of people find Ray, or at least the way he's been written, creepy and that's on the EP's. But as a whole I am not bothered by Ray the character. He is sort of a goofy genius and that can be fun the watch. I think the problem for me is a character like Ray doesn't belong on a show like Arrow. I'm not so much talking about realistic vs fantastic. It's all comic book based and in that world some people DO fly. But Arrow has a certain tone to it and a smiling, jokey guy in a brightly colored flying suit doesn't fit it. At all. He'd go great on Flash. Goofy guys in brightly colored suits is sort of their thing. It wasn't helped by the fact he was separate from most of the rest of the cast and the stories for most of the season. Whenever Ray was onscreen you needed Felicity there to remind you what show you were watching.

[tarotx]

Ray was already in a spin off this whole season. That is a huge problem I had with him. Imo it felt like Felicity was a floater between Ray's show & her own Arrow.

Also, I have no issue watching cute charming characters who lack some social necessities or who have a goofy side. I like Felicity and Berry. My problem with Ray's issues is when he was being treated as a perfect "Light" Oliver. People have flaws and have to face the consequences even if it's just Oliver Rolling his eyes at Ray.

Edited April 18, 2015 by tarotx

[dtissagirl]

I think a character like Palmer, with the very specific kind of tone he brings, would have fit better if the season hadn't been shrouded by Sara's death. He probably could have fit season 2A, much like Barry and his sunny disposition did. I mean, the goofy tone Palmer brings with him actually fit in those first 20 minutes of happy Arrow in 301. It was keeping him apart from every character but Felicity for the next 15 or so episodes that made it weird.

 

But then, their decision to make the season GRIMDARK depressing kneecapped them in several different ways, this was just one of them. I imagine they made the choice to keep Palmer in his sitcom island because they were unable to figure out how to match his tone with any of the other characters. Even with Felicity, who is their single regular sunny character [but who's also been deeply affected by GRIMDARK], it's been hit and miss.

 

I do agree that it was a mistake, though. Maybe a better route would have been having all of this sad folks in grief having to deal with this clown, on top of all of their problems. Maybe then the enormous difference in tone could have been minimized earlier.

[kismet]

2 things have bothered me since OQ mentioned that RP/FS could actually be related. Because it honestly feels believable based on Cailtin & OQ's interpretations, and how the characters are portrayed on the screen.

1. I HOPE/PRAY/BEG that the writers do not go there are they made Raylicity such an "important" part of season 3.

 

2. How much better the season and Ray might have played as a character is he was a long lost brother, cousin, relative (esp if we all didn't know at first). I mean it would have opened up a wealth of possible story possibilities, not just this season but moving forward, esp. if they are bringing Felicity's father into the show. Ray & Felicity still could have had a special connection & bonded. She still could have gone to work for Palmer Tech and helped him work on the suit, even without knowing they were related. It could have been an accidental finding in something they were doing to build the suit. Some genetic code they had to write for the programming. Also, I always felt RP/FS's chemistry played more as friends/bff. ERB never had same romantic chemistry w/ BR that she has with GG & SA. So it could easily have been tweaked to sibling/cousin vibe after the big reveal. Before the big plot twist/reveal, they probably still could have gone on their date & had their kiss just so OQ could have had his angry/jealous swiping of the lab table. It would have been icky after we found out they are related, but we've lived through Tommy/Thea, sister swapping & sleeping with your Dad's mistress, so it wouldn't be unprecedented. Everything could have remained the same plotwise, the only difference would have been some type of genetic reveal (after the winter premiere), prefarbly before the awkward flirty moment in the mayor's office. Minus the romantic relationship mentions, the PDA & sex scenes, everything could have remained the same plotwise from 315 to now. Heck he still could have been the +1 to the wedding.

 

I just think Ray would have made a better relative than lover to Felicity, because it would have removed a lot of the unnecessary romantic entanglements/angst/triangle drama from the season. It also could have foreshadowed OQ's son, paralleled Thea's paternity crisis, harkened back to Diggle/Lyla's concerns and blended with some of the familial themes they do on the Flash. It just feels like if would have been a fun & unique way to go that would have opened up so many doors for Ray, the ATOM, Felicity, the Spinoff and Flarrowverse. As opposed to how I feel now, which is that with every episode more opportunities are being lost for Ray. So while I laughed in the moment with that line & the facial expressions. It also feels very much like a suckerpunch right now, when I think about what might have been.

[kismet]

In "Broken Arrow", Ray got called 'Tin Man', and Roy got called 'Scarecrow'. So how would match up the Arrow characters with Wizard of Oz characters?

 

Dorothy -- Felicity

Lion -- Oliver

Tin Man -- Diggle

Scarecrow -- Roy

Wicked Witch -- ?

Glinda -- ?

Toto -- ?

Sorta gotta agree with @tvecho that I see Oliver as Dorothy. If making comparisons, this is how I see it. When I watch the WoO, it always seemed like what the characters were searching for from the wizard, they already possessed they just hadn't realized it yet. I always thought that was the message of the movie.

 

Dorothy - Oliver (had found home again in family & TA)

Lion -- Diggle (courage in spades)

Tin Man -- Felicity (almost all heart to go along with her smarts)

Scarecrow -- Roy (underestimated, but smarter than people think)

Wicked Witch -- Malcolm (Plotting from the beginning to the end)

Glinda -- Thea/Sara (helps hero find their way)

Toto -- Laurel (tags along & plays crucial bit role here & there)

[BkWurm1]

Before the big plot twist/reveal, they probably still could have gone on their date & had their kiss just so OQ could have had his angry/jealous swiping of the lab table.

 

They wouldn't have had to do the kiss to put them in a scene that looked very intimate from the outsiders perspective and Oliver wouldn't have to have been told that Ray is related so he could have his jealous moments followed by trying to let her go.   Felicity could even LET him think what he wants because she is too annoyed by the Malcolm stuff to correct him. Or be totally oblivious that it's an issue Oliver needs setting straight on.  The lines about them not being together being Oliver's choice remains the same. 

 

Of course TPTB wanted their triangle AND wanted to showcase Ray's leading man romantic chops so although Ray as just friend or long lost relative would have been far more enjoyable for at least this viewer, it wasn't going to happen.  '

 

Still, how hilarious would it have been if Oliver still came to Ray for help while laying low and still said his line about them being related and instead of glaring, Felicity would just nod and say, yeah, he's my cousin.  Then Oliver could freak out over what he thinks has been going on, lol, until Diggle (who of course knew and just thought he could use the push) calls him an idiot. 

[kismet]

They wouldn't have had to do the kiss to put them in a scene that looked very intimate from the outsiders perspective and Oliver wouldn't have to have been told that Ray is related so he could have his jealous moments followed by trying to let her go.   Felicity could even LET him think what he wants because she is too annoyed by the Malcolm stuff to correct him. Or be totally oblivious that it's an issue Oliver needs setting straight on.  The lines about them not being together being Oliver's choice remains the same. 

 

Of course TPTB wanted their triangle AND wanted to showcase Ray's leading man romantic chops so although Ray as just friend or long lost relative would have been far more enjoyable for at least this viewer, it wasn't going to happen.  '

 

Still, how hilarious would it have been if Oliver still came to Ray for help while laying low and still said his line about them being related and instead of glaring, Felicity would just nod and say, yeah, he's my cousin.  Then Oliver could freak out over what he thinks has been going on, lol, until Diggle (who of course knew and just thought he could use the push) calls him an idiot. 

That last part would have been funny. Very classic misunderstanding comedy. As for the kiss, I was just trying to give the writers their kiss if they wanted it so badly. As for Ray's leading man acting chops, I wouldn't say they even came close to making those a marketable asset of RP/ATOM.

 

I know TPTB wanted a love triangle. :( I will never understand TPTB love of triangles, they so rarely work out on TV. I think it failed Arrow, Felicity & Ray this season. :( So as much as I can imagine an AU where we would have gotten bumbling genius half-brother/cousin of Felicity Smoak who makes a flying machine that shrinks it will never be. Add it to the growing list of things from Arrow that might have been.

Edited April 18, 2015 by kismet

[wingster55]

There was no telling how people would react to him.  Plus, he pretty much showed up at the height of an Olicity build up in the first half of season two, so he could have been immediately rejected for getting in the way.

 

From what I remember he was fairly rejected (on TWOP at least) for a variety of reasons.