Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Orion]

Here is a picture of the gif said set @Sunshine mentioned. https://twitter.com/OlicitysArrow/status/475042675646038017/photo/1

 

The parellels are amazingly close. But in that twitter thread both Guggenheim and Kreisberg respond that it was unintentional. https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/475073301606182912 DP is director of photography. He could take similar angles and distances but not write similar scenes.

 

Sometimes I really think if the EPs would shut up on social media and let us all over analyze their story they would come out being way smarter storytellers than what they actually are.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Orion

[writersblock51]

Following that twitter thread...

 

 

Andrew Kreisberg ‏@AJKreisberg Jun 7

@SmoaknArrow @mguggenheim @OlicitysArrow @ARROWwriters "Trust the art, not the artist". :)

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

[Actionmage]

I think that having Laurel reach out to Sin would be an unexpectedly great place to start the turnaround for Laurel. Laurel has to know that Thea and Roy are good friends with Sin, as they all asked her to look into Sin's friend's disappearance. I think it could be nothing for Our Favorite Blackmailer to find out Ollie took care of her hospital stay after the Guns 4 Cash incident. So that, more than finding out that Sin is important to Sara, would incline Laurel to be interested in how Sin fits into Oliver's "little friends" (I can just hear that out of Laurel's mouth. Sorry, KC.) Then, maybe using Sin, like Oliver's used Roy (street level ears and eyes) Laurel will start of feel sisterly/protective on her own? Then there could be some fun Sin's Two Mother Figures?  I know, I know...fool's paradise.

 

As for Oliver's line about loving Laurel half his life? It's sat uneasily with me as well, but I think I can understand it. Love has many faces, as we all know. I think that what Oliver means is that there has been a form of love he has felt for her since he met her. The non-sexual love one feels for good, close friends is probably (::crosses fingers::) what Oliver means, as it's obvious that his sexually-based love for her waxed and waned in the past/ he didn't 'get' sex doesn't equal love. Oliver, Tommy and Laurel went through so much before the Island that Oliver will never lose that connection and feelings for Laurel, but he is different now and maybe understands better (after the pre-Quake nookie) that he is better as Laurel's friend, not just because of the secret identity thing. He presented himself as a concerned old friend when the LoA showed and Laurel had no problems with that (until she did.)  So the line makes sense to me now: He has loved her in some form or fashion for half his life, he will always care about her.

 

Tommy's arc, as a previous poster noted, was definitely 'Where Oliver Was'. Yet I disagree with those who think Tommy was not better for Laurel. Tommy was maturing after Malcolm decided to stop the bottomless well of money. Tommy was despondent, embarrassed and upset, but Oliver trusted him with Verdant. The club was mostly Tommy's baby (so I hope that somehow Verdant stays with Oliver and/or Thea) and proof to him that he could be fine and be a grown-ass man who didn't have to depend on his father for everything.  Because he didn't have to literally fight for his survival the same way Oliver did ( I cannot see Tommy killing a bird bare-handed, but I think he might agonize over it less), it was a slower maturation, so Tommy got insecure and shouty and then he found out his best friend put arrows into folks. So he backslid, right into his dad's hands and got treated as an ignorant pawn by a father who couldn't read him/ was willfully denying that Tommy would ever think differently (it was about avenging Mrs. Merlyn, how could Tommy not want it?!) So, yeah, Tommy had some moments that had me pout and talk back to the tv, but Oliver does too. Tommy died trying to become a Good Man. Personally, I think he was there, but didn't believe it. Mileage varies, which is cool.

[quarks]

My reading on that was that Tommy's story was supposed to parallel but contrast Oliver's - two useless billionaire brats who slowly became heroes. Oliver did the dramatic method of running around shooting arrows at people; Tommy did the quiet heroism of slowly maturing (getting a job, working on being in a stable relationship, then sacrificing his own happiness to make sure that Laurel could be happy) and then doing the really heroic thing of dying so that Laurel could live. I thought it was partly meant to show Oliver real heroism - and it worked.

 

Not to mention that I really liked the twist of having the somewhat slimy playboy we originally met calling Oliver out on his killing/morality. I thought that was great - it was also the moment when I really started to like Tommy.  You expect the cop to have an issue with a vigilante. Same with the ex-soldier (even if he's helping out), the lawyer (sigh), and the normal IT girl.  The careless billionaire from the first episode? Not so much, and that was great. 

[JenMcSnark]

 

I'm also on team no costumed Felicity, but I agree. Sara just revealed her identity to Laurel yet she passes the jacket to her!? It even would have made more sense for her to give it to Sin since Sara was looking out for her and she was actually the first person helping Sara. Sin didn't help fight crime of course, but they stayed together in the Clocktower and I'm sure she helped her by bringing food and keeping a lookout.

 

said this in the Felicity thread, but I wanted to comment on one aspect that's been bugging me. 

 

Sara, who just spent who knows how long watching over & protecting her sister Laurel, basically gives her the jacket which intimates her approval of Laurel becoming vigilante.  Yet she's been protecting her because she knows Laurel does not have the skills or inclination to fight & take care of herself, let alone Oliver or the city.  Otherwise why protect her?  Why be so concerned?

 

She might as well have said, "I'm tired of you getting between me and Oliver and me and our parents.  And generally just being a public nuisance. So here...have at it.  I'll finally be rid of you."

 

Now of course I know that's not what Sara was thinking in Arrowverse.  But what the writers want us to think just doesn't make any sense whatsoever based on anything the show has told us or shown us for the last two seasons.  

 

[FAU]

My reading on that was that Tommy's story was supposed to parallel but contrast Oliver's - two useless billionaire brats who slowly became heroes. Oliver did the dramatic method of running around shooting arrows at people; Tommy did the quiet heroism of slowly maturing (getting a job, working on being in a stable relationship, then sacrificing his own happiness to make sure that Laurel could be happy) and then doing the really heroic thing of dying so that Laurel could live. I thought it was partly meant to show Oliver real heroism - and it worked.

 

Not to mention that I really liked the twist of having the somewhat slimy playboy we originally met calling Oliver out on his killing/morality. I thought that was great - it was also the moment when I really started to like Tommy.  You expect the cop to have an issue with a vigilante. Same with the ex-soldier (even if he's helping out), the lawyer (sigh), and the normal IT girl.  The careless billionaire from the first episode? Not so much, and that was great. 

 

Exactly, and it's why I missed his character when he died.  He actually has a character arc/journey unlike Laurel's mess that the writers have to constantly explain themselves.

[tv echo]

Tommy's journey would've made a great storyline, but the EPs probably wanted to avoid comparisons to other superhero stories (like Spiderman) as well as give Oliver a different motivation for Season 2.  I would've preferred that they'd kill off Laurel, but too late now.

 

Pre-island, Oliver and Tommy were both spoiled rich womanizers but - I suspect - Tommy had more depth then.  Oliver was loved and indulged by both parents.  Tommy had a dead mother and a vengeful, manipulative father - anyone who has Malcolm Merlyn as a father has to be screwed up.  Tommy also was in love with his best friend's girlfriend, Laurel (hard as it is to believe), and always knew he was second choice when she finally got involved with him after Oliver 'died'.  I would've loved to have seen the continuation or evolution of his friendship with Oliver and Tommy's own character after the Season 1 earthquake and Oliver's having sex with Laurel.  I would've also loved to have seen Tommy finding out that Thea was his sister and his building a sibling relationship with her.

 

Great potential for the Tommy character who's been beautifully portrayed by a good actor.

Edited July 13, 2014 by tv echo

[FAU]

Tommy's journey would've made a great storyline, but the EPs probably wanted to avoid comparisons to other superhero stories (like Spiderman) as well as give Oliver a different motivation for Season 2.  I would've preferred that they'd kill off Laurel, but too late now.

 

Pre-island, Oliver and Tommy were both spoiled rich womanizers but - I suspect - Tommy had more depth then.  Oliver was loved and indulged by both parents.  Tommy had a dead mother and a vengeful, manipulative father - anyone who has Malcolm Merlyn as a father has to be screwed up.  Tommy also was in love with his best friend's girlfriend, Laurel (hard as it is to believe), and always knew he was second choice when she finally got involved with him after Oliver 'died'.  I would've loved to have seen the continuation or evolution of his friendship with Oliver and Tommy's own character after the Season 1 earthquake and Oliver's having sex with Laurel.  I would've also loved to have seen Tommy finding out that Thea was his sister and his building a sibling relationship with her.

 

Great potential for the Tommy character who's been beautifully portrayed by a good actor.

 

Exactly and his character had way more potential than Laurel, especially with how Season 2 turned out for her.  Arrow has already drawn comparisons to other superheroes like Batman so I'm not sure how a Superman comparison would make it any worse.

[Sakura12]

The real kicker in the Oliver/Laurel romance is, we saw that when Oliver had Laurel and could've had her, he choose Sara. How is that showing some epic romance when the guy keeps choosing to be with the sister?

 

Bringing in Sara and hooking her up with Oliver didn't help Laurel in the slightest, it actually derailed her journey and sent it off a cliff. 

[writersblock51]

said this in the Felicity thread, but I wanted to comment on one aspect that's been bugging me. 

 

Sara, who just spent who knows how long watching over & protecting her sister Laurel, basically gives her the jacket which intimates her approval of Laurel becoming vigilante.  Yet she's been protecting her because she knows Laurel does not have the skills or inclination to fight & take care of herself, let alone Oliver or the city.  Otherwise why protect her?  Why be so concerned?

 

She might as well have said, "I'm tired of you getting between me and Oliver and me and our parents.  And generally just being a public nuisance. So here...have at it.  I'll finally be rid of you."

 

Now of course I know that's not what Sara was thinking in Arrowverse.  But what the writers want us to think just doesn't make any sense whatsoever based on anything the show has told us or shown us for the last two seasons.  

 

Very interesting angle and one that I hadn't considered before.  My only thought (besides the obvious 'Make Laurel BC at all costs') is that Sara felt that the BC persona wasn't hunted or in danger now.  The LoA was pulling her back into the fold, her family was safe from them and Slade - the only villain who knew her identities - was not in a position to hurt her or her family.

 

However, it still seems like a huge risk to hand over everything to Laurel with no substance in the suit to actually to the job that comes with the jacket. 

 

Passing the suit onto Sin would have made a lot more sense to me.  Unless the show is proceeding without Sin next year.  I hope not but I can see it happening - the cast list is still crowded.

 

I suspect these points are yet more examples of fans putting in a lot more thought into the characters and storylines than the actual EPs and writers... *sigh*

[Orion]

Oliver hooking back up with Sara was just one more nail in the Laurel/Oliver coffin for me. It was bad but there were so many another story beats that were cringe worthy when it comes to those two.  Having to be introduced to a "love story" that starts with, "about that time I cheated on you with your sister", to walking around bragging with Tommy about all the girls they use to hook up including Max Stanfields fiancé at the rehearsal dinner, to telling McKenna that he dated the sister of the DJ, to hooking back up right after Tommy to, my personal most disgusting, cuddling on Laurel's lap while he was upset about getting a random girl pregnant and then icing that cake with one more round of sister swaps. I've never seen a attempt at a OTP that was so toxic. It destroys her character for wanting to be with him again and his for being so horrible. I'm willing to forgive a lot from him because of what happened to him but watch how fast I would run from this show if he pulled any of the above with Felicity if/when they get together.  Which is probably why I'm so completely confused by the few people who do ship Laurel and Oliver.

 

At least we see Oliver moving forward from Laurel and trying to start other relationships, the writers are getting dangerously close to further assassinating Laurel's character (and that's saying something) by having her jump at him every time he's available. (After Tommy, when he walks her home, the I know you in my bones).

 

I'd like to say that their relationships proves that the EPs had/have a profound misunderstanding of what is acceptable in comics, especially 40 years of comics when their were a lot more misogynistic overtones to stories, vs what modern TV audiences are willing to put up with, but even after the backlash at the sister swapping instead of trying to play down Oliver's playboy/manwhore ways they keep right on piling on.  So I don't know if the problem is they are trying to kill of Lauriver or their aren't enough women in the writers room with enough power to say, "No!" or they truly believe they can save that mess of a relationship in the end. But they keep digging the grave for Lauriver deeper and deeper and Sara was just a few more shovelfuls.

[doesntworkonwood]

I could never bring myself to go near any guy that my sister or any of my cousins had been with, and I honestly don't know any girls who would. I think that the writers must have some strange idea of sisterhood if they thought that it would be okay and that everyone would be rooting for a relationship like that.

 

I think someone once asked an Olicity shipper on tumblr what would make them stop shipping Olicity, and the response was if Oliver slept with a member of Felicity's family. 

[dtissagirl]

One of the reasons I love it so much that Felicity/Oliver was pure serendipity is that it's one of the few relationships in this show that didn't come attached with icky friends and family pasts. I mean. Oliver sister-swapped Laurel and Sara a couple of times, then slept with his father's mistress. Moira had an affair and a kid with one of her husbands' friends, then after plotting to kill Robert, married another one of his friends. Diggle was into his dead brother's wife. Tommy was into his dead best friend's girlfriend. Thea was into her half brother, albeit unknowingly, and THANK YOU, THEA, for being so completely disgusted by that when you learned the truth. Gossip Girl had NOTHING on Arrow, seriously.

[apinknightmare]

 

I could never bring myself to go near any guy that my sister or any of my cousins had been with, and I honestly don't know any girls who would. I think that the writers must have some strange idea of sisterhood if they thought that it would be okay and that everyone would be rooting for a relationship like that.

 

Marc Guggenheim tweeted a picture of a concept meeting for 3x01 a few weeks ago, and the room was full of about 30 men and one, maybe two women. I hesitate to use the term 'wish fulfillment' with regards to the way Oliver's love life is handled on the show, but I think there's a bunch of stereotypical male ideas as far as conquests go, and what kind of behavior from a 'playboy' and 'desirable' man is acceptable/attractive.

 

So, women fall all over pre-island Oliver, and he, in turn, mostly treats them like dirt, and we still have two of those women (maybe more, if the mother of his child comes back into the picture) who inexplicably want anything to do with him romantically in the present day. I can MAYBE understand Sara because of their shared experience on the island, but...eh, not really. Laurel, though...I don't understand. Yes, there is a certain appeal to taking some broken, pitiful excuse of a man and transforming him with your love or some other such nonsense, but he has shit on her repeatedly, and she's still coming back for more. At this point, she's not just a doormat, she's like...the doormat factory and warehouse all rolled into one.

 

I don't want to frame this as a male vs. female viewpoint debate, because I know plenty of men who would find Oliver's behavior in the past (and some of the present) unacceptable. But in terms of writing where his love life is concerned, I think there's a 'hot guy gets his pick of women and look at what they're willing to go through to be with the illustrious Oliver Queen' kind of thing at play here. I think they give the actual terms and development of the relationship very little thought. I think it's more of a "Sisters? Yeah! Sisters!" kind of thing.

Edited July 13, 2014 by apinknightmare

[TanyaKay]

One of the reasons I love it so much that Felicity/Oliver was pure serendipity is that it's one of the few relationships in this show that didn't come attached with icky friends and family pasts. I mean. Oliver sister-swapped Laurel and Sara a couple of times, then slept with his father's mistress. Moira had an affair and a kid with one of her husbands' friends, then after plotting to kill Robert, married another one of his friends. Diggle was into his dead brother's wife. Tommy was into his dead best friend's girlfriend. Thea was into her half brother, albeit unknowingly, and THANK YOU, THEA, for being so completely disgusted by that when you learned the truth. Gossip Girl had NOTHING on Arrow, seriously.

 

OMG ... you are so right. Gossip Girl seems like Child Play in comparison to this ... so incestuous.

Never thought of Diggle's romance in first season in those terms but now that you have mentioned it ... ewwww

[dtissagirl]

Yeah. With the exception of the crap that involves Oliver having sex with siblings, and then with a chick who used to bang his father -- both of which are super duper gross, ewwww -- I wouldn't have a problem with any of the other individual relationships... But they keep piling on. And looking at them all together I can't help but see a pattern. Of creepy pervy writers. :)

Edited July 13, 2014 by dancingnancy

[apinknightmare]

Yeah. With the exception of the crap that involves Oliver having sex with siblings, and then with a chick who used to bang his father -- both of which are super duper gross, ewwww -- I wouldn't have a problem with any of the other individual relationships... But they keep piling on. And looking at them all together I can't help but see a pattern. Of creepy pervy writers. :)

 

And maybe, just maybe, a few V.C. Andrews fans.

[pootlus]

I can't help but think that - without meaning to smear all straight guys, I'm sure there are many who feel the same way as I do - the sister thing is very much a male wish-fulfilment scenario.  I remember giving up the Wheel of Time books in disgust not only at the general portrayal of the female characters but that the story was clearly heading for a scenario in which three formerly strong, independent women were happy to 'share' the central character because they'd rather have part of his penis than none at all, or something.

 

It's just so repugnant to me and - judging by posts here and on TWoP - many others also.  They really need to put Oliver/Laurel to rest, permanently (i.e. by having Laurel - and the actress 'portraying' her - accept that it's not going to happen and move on).  Oliver repeatedly chose Sara over Laurel.  Geez, Laurel, get the hint.

[writersblock51]

@pootlus, I polled a few males that I'm either related to or good enough friends with to ask about the sister swapping thing.  And they all said it was a huge turn off for them, too.  They are all adults and in relationships.

 

That being said, 2 of them said that the whole twins/sister thing was stuff that was appealing when they were teens, espescially since there were a few Playboy twins popular way back when.  I just shake my head, but they were being honest so that's that.

 

Which makes me wonder if the sister-swapping thing is appealing to fans who still think like those teenage boys.  Given the comments I've read that refer to BC's fishnets and cleavage, I think there's definitely a market (hopefully a teeny one) for it.

 

I hope the show ditches the Lance sister thing with Oliver once and for all, though.  Because I think the majority of the show's fans are NOT those kind of fans.

[Orion]

I did the same. Polled my husband and his friends. I got the yes to two girls or twins at once in their teenage years too but that was with both girls being in the same bed. Not bed hopping from one to the other. They all said the sister stuff was a definite no unless you are into the thrill of sneaking around, then that might appeal because it would add another level to the danger but they said that even if they were into both sisters you don't do that because you could destroy a family.

 

Just guessing but I think it was just a poorly thought out plot point on the EPs part. They never thought people would be that bothered by the cheating with a sister more than just the cheating. They never thought how that would reflect back on Laurel or Oliver or their relationship in the future. They were trying to make a point that Oliver pre-island was a dick that cheated often. In their minds he would come back and save Laurel as the Hood, love her as Oliver and the Hood and she would forgive him. In fact, during my S1 rewatch I noticed that a LOT of the times that Laurel and Oliver either talk seriously about their relationship or have some kind of physical intimacy it is right after one of them brings up Sara. Its just creepy. It was a huge miscalculation that with or without Felicity would have needed to be fixed in the future. But instead of fixing it they double down. And now imo it is unfixable, I don't even want them as friends, they just need to move on away from each other maybe every so often send an email.  

 

 For Oliver it really doesn't make any sense that he would go that route (unless he wanted Sara) because we've never been shown that Laurel controlled him and that is cowardly way to confront a problem more likely to be done by someone very submissive to someone very dominate. If anything she bent over backwards to forgive his playboy ways. Hand waving past cheating, drinking, drugs, arrests, court appearances, and dropping out of colleges. If he didn't want to move in with her I can't imagine Oliver not being able to make excuses and ignore her hints and just go about his party ways. The sleeping with your sister isn't a "let's put the brakes on this relationship" it is a "let me plant this huge bomb in our relationship and blow it up forever."

[KirkB]

I get why Laurel was with Oliver, back in the day. Among other things (like hurting Sara, who wanted him first) he was rich, and being seen with him could only help her status. I get Oliver too, since he was ruled by his penis and she was willing, so why not? It was fun for him and good for her self image or whatever, even if she had to willfully ignore all his cheating. I get Sara too, though unlike Laurel I got the sense she genuinely had feelings for him, though considering he was cheating on Laurel WITH her she recognized what kind of a guy he really was. As for the sister swapping, being a straight male I can honestly say this is not something I have ever spent much time thinking about. Two women, yes. Sleeping with two sisters, sure I suppose, if it was just sex and I wanted to be able to brag to my friends. But Oliver was in a relationship (more or less) with Laurel and sneaked around to be with Sara. Unlike all the other times he cheated on Laurel he went out of his way to hide the fact he was seeing Sara because...what, even he recognized how wrong that was I guess? I think the EP's did that to reinforce just how much of an ass Oliver was and how much better a man he is now. They just neglected to consider how negatively some of the audience would react.

[tv echo]

I agree that there's a male fantasy element to the sister-swapping on Arrow.  Hey, we live in a society where reality shows about polygamy (Sister Wives) are popular - granted, not real sisters but multiple wives catering to one man.  But I think it was originally done just to be another obstacle to Oliver/Laurel "true love".  Otherwise, Oliver returns from the dead and has a joyful reunion with his girlfriend Laurel - the interim hook-up with Tommy easily understood and gotten past (see The Walking Dead).  I think they originally planned to leave Sara dead.  Then, for some reason they decided to bring in another actress as Black Canary and made her Sara Lance.  If Sara had stayed dead, then, yes, there would be an 'ick' factor but it would've been consistent with pre-island jerk Oliver.  However, now since Oliver again hooked up with Sara post-island, it's really unforgivable for the new Oliver to be sister-swapping.

[Sakura12]

There's an interview from 2012 where the EP's said they always planned on bringing Sara back. The second hook up was what looked like to be on the fly decision and shouldn't have happened. They could've easily had Laurel notice that Oliver and Sara were closer than two people that haven't seen each other in 6 years should be. She could think they were dating again and gotten just as angry but they were not. With that the blame wouldn't be any of them, we know Oliver and Sara went thought a lot together so their closeness would make sense as well as Laurel jumping to conclusions would've made sense because they both lied to her about their previous affair and the fact that Sara was still alive (although Cassidy still playing that like a condescending bitch instead of playing it hurt and vulnerable is something no one can fix). But maybe we could've gotten some actual discussions between them about the fact that Oliver and Sara were on the island together and that Sara told Oliver to tell her family she died on the Gambit. 

 

However that would've required character growth and not regression and we can't have that. 

[tv echo]

Personally, I think the EPs lied about always planning to bring Sara back.  Otherwise, why cast a different actress to play Sara in the initial flashback scene of Sara getting swept away?  Then they had to reshoot that scene with CL.  But if they didn't lie, then it makes it all worse.

[Morrigan2575]

@Sakura12 - That's actually a good scenario.  I don't know why they went with O/S in present day Starling City.  I heard enough Lauriver fans say in July/Aug 2013, that would be the death of the Lauiver ship because they couldn't support the ship if Oliver/Sara hooked back up in Starling.  It was one thing to say that it was in the past and Oliver paid for his crimes, with 5 years of hell.  However, there's no excuse for Oliver and Sara to get together in Starling in front of Laurel and have Laurel go...oh I still Love Him...we're Meant2Be!!!!!

 

I honestly don't think they anticipated the reaction to Oliver cheating on Laurel with her sister would have.  I think they just wanted an obstacle to keep O/L apart in Starling (because they figured everyone would want them to be together...since Dinah/Oliver).  So they had Oliver cheat on Laurel I wonder if the Sara part was done to give Quentin/Oliver an antagonistic relationship in S1?

 

Now, all that being said, I don't understand why, after clearly seeing the negative reaction of fans and media to the whole Oliver cheating on Laurel with sister Sara would they go there again if they actually wanted Oliver/Laurel as OTP.  I just don't get that because it's one thing to misread an audiences potential reaction but they had to know how the S2 hook up would go down. 

Edited July 14, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

I think the recasting of Sara was also the physical demand the role required, they seemed to be specifically looking for someone that didn't need a stunt double all the time to save on the budget. 

 

Maybe they should've kept Sara as a villain, her League name could've been Ravenger (which to be honest is much more formidable assassin name than Canary). That way two of Oliver friends that he thought were dead, are now killers. His man-pain would've been on overload with that, especially his guilt about Sara. We'd have Oliver dealing with villainSara and then having to face her family on a daily basis. The Oliver/Sara relationship would've been so different. Oliver would do anything to bring her back because of their time on and off the island and him just being like that a year ago, then having to decide what to do with her if he failed and she had become a bigger threat to the city. Then we could've actually seen the killer they kept telling us Sara was (instead of her body count of 3). To me it looks like they changed Sara to the hero at the start of season with her beating (not killing) rapist, than changed it back to the original villain story in later half of the season. So what we had was a confusing mess. 

 

That also would've solved a little (just a little) of the Laurel problem, we never would've seen a much better Black Canary and Laurel after finding out about Sara would hopefully want to try and save her younger sister and would've had a better motivation to become a hero, 

Edited July 14, 2014 by Sakura12

[Sunshine]

I wonder if the present day hook-up was because viewers didn't buy the Season 1 True Love Story = Oliver/Laurel?  They decided to do Arrow/Canary while they had the chance?  If proto-Canary was all about Laurel why didn't they focus on Sarah/Laurel instead of Arrow/Canary?  I am sure it is what the EPs thought we needed.  Seems to me they have screwed up both the love story (because of Felicity) and Laurel is BC (because of Sarah).  They probably didn't lose too many fans over the deaths of the proto-hoods (Yao Fei and Shado) but they certainly might if Sara dies just to advance Laurel.  

[Password]

I just watched "The Scientist" where Shado asks Oliver whom Sara is, and he says she's the girl that was on the boat with him. The look of disappointment on Shado's face was wonderful. Like she just realised what sleeze Oliver was because she even asked him what about Laurel (who's picture we learn he still looked at).

 

When Sara was introduced as maybe alive in s1 I immediately thought she probably was alive. I can believe the producers saying it was planned ahead. Or at the very least they left the door open. But they, IMO, did something unforgivable in allowing Oliver and Sara to once again get together. It just made everyone in the situation look bad and seriously put any thoughts of Laurel and Oliver getting back together in my view, 6 feet under. No self respecting woman will go through that. I cannot make myself cheer for Laurel when that nonsense grates on my nerves.

 

I don't know what capacity Sara meant when she said Oliver needs her, but love interest is out for this viewer.

Edited July 14, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[Velocity23]

So remember last year at Comic Con when Emily and Katie were asked if Felicity and Laurel could be friends? Well someone posted the photo and David Ramseys expression is hilarious. He seem to be channeling Diggle.

[dtissagirl]

They miscalculated audience reaction to so many things, it would be fascinating if it weren't so freaking frustrating. I wonder when the decision that they were bringing back Sara and the decision to bring a Black Canary into the show was merged, because that was when they shot themselves in the foot. When Sara IS back and she IS Canary and Oliver is sleeping with her, what's the point of Laurel, even. And HOW could they have not realized that?

[SonofaBiscuit]

David Ramsey looks disgusted.  Stephen Amell looks amused.  What was KC's response?  "Laurel's got this."??

[Morrigan2575]

Like she just realised what sleeze Oliver was because she even asked him what about Laurel (who's picture we learn he still looked at).

 

I never got the impression that Oliver still looked at the photo in S2.  IIRC Shado just asks what about the girl in the photo which is something I thought was highlighted last season between Shado/Oliver (the almost kiss).

 

David Ramsey looks disgusted.  Stephen Amell looks amused.  What was KC's response?  "Laurel's got this."??

 

Emily said no and Katie said yes.

[Sakura12]

If Cassidy didn't keep playing Laurel looking at and treating Felicity like something on the bottom of her shoe, I could've seen it. But that's not how it was played. Now I can't un-see that. We can however see the difference with this season when EBR asked which female she wanted to be Felicity's friend, she happily said Sara.

 

I don't know what the writers are thinking, they had Sara come in after being an assassin for 4 years, treat both Felicity and Diggle with respect and kindness. They showed her notice Felicity feeling left out and trying to help her.To some Sara may have sounded condescending to Felicity with the cute lines, but I never got the impression she meant it like that. Plus I can fanwank that she actually meant she was cute after finding out about Nyssa or she's not used to showing kindness and forgot how to go about it. I think her showing Felicity a better stance to hit people is what she's more used to doing. I never got the impression that Sara looked down on Felicity. She respected her skills and wanted to help Felicity see she was brave and an essential part of Oliver's team. 

 

Then we have Laurel who automatically dismisses Felicity, treats her like she's Oliver's help and should not be interrupting their conversations or be standing next to him or most of all should be involved with Oliver's hero duties. She always looks annoyed at Felicity's mere presence. That didn't even change when she found out that they were part of the Arrow's team. I don't even know how they'd make Laurel and Felicity believable friends. I can see them being tolerant of each other because they have too, but never friends. 

Edited July 14, 2014 by Sakura12

[Password]

I can see them being tolerant of each other because they have too, but never friends.

Agreed.

[Happy Harpy]

I wonder if the present day hook-up was because viewers didn't buy the Season 1 True Love Story = Oliver/Laurel?  They decided to do Arrow/Canary while they had the chance?

That's what I always thought. For me, the problem mid-season 2 was never Real!Sara, as the character was established in S2-A, it was the EPs fanboying over the BC/GA relationship. In my opinion, they tried to impose Sara/Oliver or rather, Canary/Arrow as the most important relationship on the show, including even a romantic angle, including over Diggle/Oliver/Felicity; the way they had tried with Oliver/Laurel before. It didn't work better, I think, because Sara/Oliver frienship and partnership is imo important for each of them, and can parallel but not be above Team Arrow, in the set up of the show, and because romantically speaking, S/O suffers from the sister swapping and the timing was all wrong (plus, but this is strictly in the eyes of the beholder, S.Amell and C.Lotz don't have this kind chemistry).

 

If Cassidy didn't keep playing Laurel looking at and treating Felicity like something on the bottom of her shoe, I could've seen it. But that's not how it was played. Now I can't un-see that. We can however see the difference with this season when EBR asked which female she wanted to be Felicity's friend, she happily said Sara.

 

I don't know what the writers are thinking, they had Sara come in after being an assassin for 4 years, treat both Felicity and Diggle with respect and kindness. They showed her notice Felicity feeling left out and trying to help her.To some Sara may have sounded condescending to Felicity with the cute lines, but I never got the impression she meant it like that. Plus I can fanwank that she actually meant she was cute after finding out about Nyssa or she's not used to showing kindness and forgot how to go about it. I think her showing Felicity a better stance to hit people is what she's more used to doing. I never got the impression that Sara looked down on Felicity. She respected her skills and wanted to help Felicity see she was brave and an essential part of Oliver's team. 

 

Then we have Laurel who automatically dismisses Felicity, treats her like she's Oliver's help and should not be interrupting their conversations or be standing next to him or most of all should be involved with Oliver's hero duties. She always looks annoyed at Felicity's mere presence. That didn't even change when she found out that they were part of the Arrow's team. I don't even know how they'd make Laurel and Felicity believable friends. I can see them being tolerant of each other because they have too, but never friends. 

I don't think that Sara was condescending with the "cute" line, it was said with a kind of relieved, happy surprise. I, too, had the feeling that Sara appreciated Felicity's kindness and acceptance.

I did think she acted entitled in the Arrowcave at times, in S2-B, but it was during this batch of episodes I mentioned above, when the EPs were pushing Canary/Arrow front and center (testing the waters, imo) so for me it wasn't really Sara acting there but their idea of the BC taken straight from the comics -and we can see how well this works *cough* don't need to read the comics, just need to watch the show *cough*. As soon as they stopped, Sara was allowed to be  "herself' again and naturally, that artificially created tension/akwardness between her and Felicity disappeared.

One of my favorite moments in the finale (can't remember if I mentioned it here or on TWOP...getting so forgetful with age, sigh) is Sara squeezing Felicity's arm when she arrives in the Arrowcave with Nyssa. It's such a natural, self-evident sign of friendship and understanding.

They should have developped Sara and Felicity's friendship instead of rekindling Oliver/Sara as a romantic option. I would love to see Felicity, Quentin and Sara working together.

 

And I agree, I can't imagine for one second that Laurel and Felicity could be friends. In spite of Felicity's forbearance, tolerance and niceness toward Laurel when  it was obvious that the latter had issues, Felicity has self-respect and knows what she's worth (re: when Oliver made her his EA). And she likes nice people. She also had to work hard to get a good job, without rich and influent friends or a loving and supportive family. She knows what it is to earn what you have. So I don't think she can be friends with someone who suggested she (or anyone for that matter) was fired, out of pure spite and on a whim; or with someone who looks down on people.

Felicity also knows by now, or at least I hope so, that Oliver considers she and Diggle as his first partners, above Laurel -as should be, since it was what was showed for two years now. She also knows that she took down freaking Slade Wilson while Laurel did...nothing. So again, in spite of her genuine kindness, and in spite of trying her best because Laurel is Sara's sister and Oliver's friend -or so I'm told, on both instances- I can't see her appreciate Laurel. Especially  if the latter continues to behave like the Arrowcave's boss...and she will, since she never behaved any other way, or with anyone (CNRI, Tommy, DA's office, etc.). 

The only interest of a Felicity/Laurel relationship would be Felicity giving a reality check to Miss Spoiled Rotten...for example, I'd love to see how she would react to Laurel complaining that Sara stole her life. It would be fun for an episode or two, before Laurel leaves town (a girl can dream).

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that the only purpose of a Felicity/Laurel friendship, as far as I can see so far, would be to prop the latter. So I don't want Laurel anywhere near my girl.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[writersblock51]

I don't think Laurel and Felicity could be friends at this point either - not with the woman Oliver loves thing now out in the open.  Laurel has no way to know if it was a ruse, IMO, and we know now that it wasn't one.    And if she gets wind of Oliver wanting to ask Felicity on a date once things are looking good for the Arrow, I don't think Laurel will want to be friends with Felicity anyway.

 

Then again, Laurel was (awkwardly) giving Sara and Oliver relationship advice (ugh ugh ugh) so the show will clearly do what they want with Laurel, even if it's stupid and unrealistic. 

Edited July 14, 2014 by writersblock51

[calliope1975]

I think we'll see what path the Show wants to take Laurel with how she treats Felicity and Diggle. As presented so far, I can't see Laurel ever being friends with Felicity. But as said by @writersblock51 they shoved Magnanimous Advice Giving Laurel which seemed completely out of place. I don't know if I could even buy a genuine Laurel who wants to be part of the team after seeing the way she treats others and how she seems to blackmail her way into everything. 

[TanyaKay]

David Ramsey looks disgusted.  Stephen Amell looks amused.  What was KC's response?  "Laurel's got this."??

 

I think she said that they will first fight and then be friends and Emily was nonplussed. She did not give any opinion and kinda followed KC's lead. The men - including the host of the panel - said that they would watch that fight.

[wonderwall]

The EPs tend to defy all things that make sense in order to prop Laurel. It doesn't make sense for laurel and felicity to become friends but if you think about it, laurel wouldn't fare well from being bitchy towards felicity. Fans would probably even hate her even more thus making the EPs make them friends. Funnily enough, I think that the opposite would happen if the roles were reversed. I would certainly cheer on felicity for putting laurel in her place. So yeah, unfortunately I don't see a rivalry going on between laurel and felicity because we all know who the majority of the fandom will side with.

[Starfish35]

Watch them have Laurel giving Oliver and Felicity relationship advice. :(((((

I think that would kind of make every set of fans mad.

[wonderwall]

Lol considering all of laurels disastrous relationships, she shouldn't be giving any relationship advice to anyone at all.

[writersblock51]

 

Watch them have Laurel giving Oliver and Felicity relationship advice. :(((((

 

Oh please no.

 

 

considering all of laurels disastrous relationships, she shouldn't be giving any relationship advice to anyone at all.

 

Exactly.

[Happy Harpy]

Watch them have Laurel giving Oliver and Felicity relationship advice. :(((((

I think that would kind of make every set of fans mad.

Yeah, Laurel doesn't know Felicity nearly well enough to give her advice anyway, but it isn't as if it would stop Laurel in universe or the writers otherwise.

And you know, it would be actually the lesser evil. There would be worse. Maybe she will only give Oliver relationship advice.  I can see it coming from miles away:

Nice, sympathetic, understanding Laurel holding Oliver's hand and soothing his manpain, while he pines for bad, oblivious, selfish Felicity who only has eyes for Ray.

Propping at its worst.

[tv echo]

I still don't believe that the EPs always planned to bring Sara back from the dead.  I do think they always planned to have two Black Canaries (their persistent insistence that every superhero character would not be the original).  The idea that the original Canary would be Sara probably came up sometime in Season 1 before they realized or were forced to realize the stupidity of the sister-swapping.

 

Regardless of the contrived nature of Oliver losing his money, one positive thing to result is to make Oliver and Felicity more 'equal'.  When they met, Felicity was a lowly IT employee and Oliver was her ultimate billionaire boss at QC.  During Season 2, she slowly became more of his partner in terms of Team Arrow and crime fighting but, at work, he was still her boss.  If Oliver is now 'poor' (relatively speaking) and no longer her boss, then they are more on the same level.  Same with Diggle - even if being Oliver Queen's "black driver" was a cover, there was still that employer-employee relationship.  Now they're more equal in every way as well. 

Edited July 17, 2014 by tv echo

[formerlyfreedom]

Hey, folks, we have asked you to stop speculating on Laurel as BC for the time being in the Notes from the Mods topic. You've got it covered pretty thoroughly, so until there is anything solid from the show, let's just move on from that topic. Thanks.

[tv echo]

I have a theory about the couple dynamics between Oliver and Laurel when they were dating.  I think Oliver was a weak character before the island and what happened to him during those five years changed him into a strong character.  When they were a couple before the island, I think Laurel was the dominant partner.  Now, because Oliver's changed, they no longer click as a couple because he's now dominant.  (Yes, I know, the perfect couple would be equals, but one person in a couple usually has a stronger personality - unless they're like Jane and Bingley in Pride and Prejudice)

 

Oliver grew up with a strong, protective and somewhat ruthless mother.  I suspect his father spent a lot of time at work.  In a flashback scene, when Oliver got a girl pregnant, he wallowed in self-pity and told his mother about it.  Moira told Oliver she'd take care of it and she did.  I think Laurel was similar to Moira in terms of a strong personality (not necessarily similar in character) and that was part of Oliver's attraction to her.

 

In "Blind Spot", there was a scene where Oliver has taken Laurel home after she was arrested for drug possession and she says to him "I could really use a drink of water" and he gets it for her.   If she wanted water, why didn't she go to the kitchen and get a glass of water herself?  They were in her apartment.  She wasn't injured, crippled or bedridden.  If I was home with a friend and I wanted water, I'd go and get it myself and, as hostess, offer a drink to my guest.  Not only that, but Laurel didn't even ask Oliver to get her water - she didn't say "Can you get me some water, please?"  No, she just stated what she wanted - "I could really use a drink of water" and, like a servant in Downton Abbey, Oliver went and got her water.  He fell back into an old habit.  I have a feeling that this was the dynamic of their relationship when together:  Laurel would state what she wanted and Oliver would get it for her.  Later, in "Time of Death", when Oliver tells Laurel in frustration that he's "done chasing after her", I think he was referring not just to the time since he returned to Starling City, but also to the entire time they were a couple before the island.  I suspect that she was a high-maintenance girlfriend.

 

I think that Oliver cheated frequently on Laurel, not only because he was a spoiled, selfish guy before the island, but also because it was his passive aggressive way of getting back at Laurel.  I"m not excusing his cheating, he was still an asshole.  I'm just saying maybe it was partly his way of acting out against Laurel subconsciously.  Before the island, he probably never overtly went against his mother either.

 

Anyway, that's my theory on the pre-island Oliver/Laurel dynamic.

Edited July 17, 2014 by tv echo

[quarks]

@tv echo, I thumbed up your post because now I have an image of Oliver Queen running around like Mr. Carson and getting all moral and judgemental on all of the servants while Felicity, taking the Mrs. Hughes role, constantly takes him down; Slade as Thomas Skulks and Plots Things with Isabel as Miss O'Brien; Thea's all Rebellious Lady Sybil; Roy's the Irish chauffeur dude; Tommy's all puppy eyed nice Matthew; and Moira is of course the Dowager Countess. Which makes Laurel the snotty Lady Mary which totally works for me.

 

Oh, and Diggle is Mr. Bates and Lyla is Anna, only they vanished after the first season and were never ever seen again on the show - everything that happened to them second season onwards is a horrible nightmarish delusion that never ever really happened, but this is the wrong forum for that.

[tv echo]

LOL - works for me.

[foreverevolving]

@tv echo - that is an interesting theory.. you know, i'm not sure if this is true but.. don't they always say that serial killers and rapers tend to have a more unhealthy child-mother relationship growing up (an over barring mother) and that that affects their inability to control the impulses to rape and kill?(or something like that). i'm not a criminal justice major so i could be wrong.

 

@quarks - now i'm gonna wait around for that fanfic someone is bound to write. Arrow in the Downtown Abbey world... god the possibilities!!

[icandigit]

I think it would help me understand L/O if they would just admit that Laurel was not  the down to earth wholesome girl. That she she could be entitled and bitchy in her own way. They didn't have an epic love, but were both young, stupid and drawn to superficial things. I wouldn't hate it, its a good story. Now if they could or should reconnect now is a different story. Objectively seeing them trying to reconnect now  would be an interesting  story but the writing and chemistry just isn't supporting it. There's a part of me that still wants to see that story without the dating, but I know it can't happen effectively.