Jump to content
Forums forums
PRIMETIMER
Enero

S04.E08: XXXVI

Recommended Posts

Quote

A rescue plan threatens to divide Flint and Silver; the true price of freedom becomes apparent to Max; Rackham seeks his prey; the Walrus enters uncharted territory.

Share this post


Link to post

Kofi is dead and I am devastated. He only had a few lines but I enjoyed the character. If Rogers doesn't die or is dragged off in chains to prison by the end of this series I will be pissed. He needs to die pronto.

And Billy, I just can't with Billy. 

This episode made it very clear that Flint and Silver were never of the same mind. These two being of the "same mind" simply meant Silver doing exactly what Flint wanted. 

Its unfortunate that Silver truly came to believe that Flint was his friend and thus wouldn't betray him. Flint has always been about Flint, and would never put "friendship" above his own agenda. Speaking of his agenda, what does he hope to accomplish by burying the treasure on Skeleton Island? What is his end game? Surely he still doesn't believe he can rekindle his war?

I'm not sure what's Israel Hands agenda either? He seems to be loyal to Silver, but to what end? What does he hope to get out of this? 

I don't like how at the end of this episode the women seemed to have been carefully moved out of play, presumably until the men can finish betraying each other ten times over and battling over the cache. 

So Nassau has been destroyed by Pirates and pulverized by the Spanish but somehow the brothel is back up and running, not missing a beat? Did all the prostitutes hide underground while all that destruction was going on, then reemerged when it was over?

Silver referred to Madi as his "wife!" ?❤️ I guess no formalized ceremony is needed (and wouldn't be legal anyway) considering the time in which they are living. They're in love and have consummated the relationship so what more do they need.

Good episode.

Edited by Enero
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Enero said:

Its unfortunate that Silver truly came to believe that Flint was his friend and thus wouldn't betray him. Flint has always been about Flint, and would never put "friendship" above his own agenda.

Look, I know that Flint is messed up, but it's a bit unfair to say that for him the friendship wasn't real. It very much was/is (and it can be argued who betrayed whom first). As Silver said, "It's some kind of hell to be forced to choose one irreplaceable thing over another". They chose, but it wasn't easy for either of them.

(Low-key hoping that this is actually their plan to prevent Rogers from killing Madi and to keep the cache. Zero chances, I know, but... *sigh*)

Edited by Tanya852
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Tanya852 said:

Look, I know that Flint is messed up, but it's a bit unfair to say that for him the friendship wasn't real. It very much was/is (and it can be argued who betrayed whom first). As Silver said, "It's some kind of hell to be forced to choose one irreplaceable thing over another". They chose, but it wasn't easy for either of them.

IMO Flint is incapable of true friendship. He only cared about Silver and his dilemma when it potentially affected his end game or Silver being in play could help him. As soon as Silver went left, Flint was done and found him a "new" partner. 

As Silver said, he'd followed Flint through hell and back, following his lead, most of the time without question even when he didn't agree, trusting him. But when he asks Flint one time to trust him, Flint tosses that trust aside without a second thought. He knows that Rogers will kill Madi without hesitation, the man just killed Kofi and others before their eyes, but he doesn't care because Flint wants what Flint wants and those that stand in his way are SOL. 

Quote

Low-key hoping that this is actually their plan to prevent Rogers from killing Madi and to keep the cache. Zero chances, I know, but... *sigh*)

Honestly that would be the only thing that would make sense, but like you, I highly doubt this is the case. 

Edited to add, I don't think Silver made the kill order against Flint. I think he told them to retrieve the cache. However, if Flint dies in the process that would be a necessary outcome for the result he's aiming for. 

Also, I think Silver's discussion with Max about the island of exiled English may come back into play. I don't think that conversation was for nothing. Perhaps it will be used in someway to manage Flint?

Lastly, Rackham is going to bring even more chaos to this already disastrous situation. I think his arrival will be key in what I hope will be Madi's rescue and ultimate survival. 

Edited by Enero
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

"Don't make me choose between a war and a wife..." Did I melt into a puddle of  shipper mush when he referred to Madi as his wife? Yes, I did! Don't judge me! But in all seriousness, that was the moment  their partnership offically died ( at least on Flint's end). Flint knew he lost Silver and no amount of manipulative sweet talk (that earlier speech about Silver and Madi being the best of the lot was a textbook example) would bring him back so all bets are off. 

RIP Kofi.

 

On second thought, the Flint/Silver split could just be another plan cooked up by them. Now that Billy is in cahoots with Rodgers  they've had to rethink strategy. They know Billy fed Rodgers the Intel on how to split them up so why not give Rodgers and Billy the appearance of that is what has happen? 

Edited by FlowerofCarnage
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Enero said:

IMO Flint is incapable of true friendship. He only cared about Silver and his dilemma when it potentially affected his end game or Silver being in play could help him. As soon as Silver went left, Flint was done and found him a "new" partner.

I'll politely disagree. I see their friendship as genuine (and both Luke and Toby say that), but when it came to a choice between two irreplaceables things, both of them chose differently. But that doesn't mean that everything that was between them before that was fake.

Edited by Tanya852
  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post

I find it ironic that Silver, who started out as the ultimate opportunist on the show,  came to truly find love with Madi and feel genuine friendship for Flint. Sadly, in the case of the latter he is now being betrayed and let down by a man who is too broken by past events and who will choose revenge over friendship. Flint is incapable to do otherwise.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

I was really hoping Flint would be able to fall back and support Silver for once, but that SOB has to take the reins on everything.

When Hands killed the crew member, I thought he would transfer his support to Flint.  I guess he's really on Silver's side?

Like you guys, I felt the warm fuzzies when Silver referred to Madi as his wife. 

I'm glad Max didn't agree to marry the dim bulb in the parlor.  She was right, marrying a bland guy doesn't mean you will be able to control everything.  Rogers made everything 10x worse for Eleanor. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Tanya852 said:

I'll politely disagree. I see their friendship as genuine (and both Luke and Toby say that), but when it came to a choice between two irreplaceables things, both of them chose differently. But that doesn't mean that everything that was between them before that was fake.

I think this is true.  I saw a parallel between Silver and Max.  Both of them were presented with plans that might change things in the world, both of them chose against those plans because of love and or friendship. 

Quote

There must be something more to this "betrayal". It's too simple. I hope there is more. Please, let there be more.

I thought the betrayal was pretty damn huge.  First Silver dug up the treasure unbeknownst to Flint; then Silver asked Flint for his support and Flint told him, "yes."  THEN Flint takes the treasure and goes to bury it, knowing that Madi would be killed if Rogers' men can't find it.  

But I think Billy is really on Flint's side because of the story Flint told about that island; Billy had chosen it, because he knew that island would mess with men's minds; why would Billy choose that island, knowing it might mess with the governor's men as well?

Silver and Flint are friends, but Flint is so blinded by his anger at England for what they did to he, Thomas and Miranda, that he can see nothing else.  Silver, on the other hand, doesn't want to lose Madi, a woman he loves, the same way Flint lost Thomas.

I'm just waiting to hear the folks on Tumblr, say basically that Madi was the cause of Flint and Silver splitting up.

Oh, OMG, Silver, sending his "six best men."  

Spoiler

According to Treasure Island, Flint took six men to bury the treasure and came back alone, he killed all six of the men and left one of their corpses pointing to where he buried the treasure.

Edited by Neurochick
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
16 minutes ago, Neurochick said:
  Hide contents

According to Treasure Island, Flint took six men to bury the treasure and came back alone, he killed all six of the men and left one of their corpses pointing to where he buried the treasure.

 

Spoiler

Also, he built a hut and that hut is pretty important to the plot of TI. I wonder, if they will skip it.

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, Enero said:

So Nassau has been destroyed by Pirates and pulverized by the Spanish but somehow the brothel is back up and running, not missing a beat? Did all the prostitutes hide underground while all that destruction was going on, then reemerged when it was over?

I was wondering that myself.  Like, I guess they maybe could have just been roughed up by both groups and are already back up and running, but it still seems like a bit of a stretch.  

2 hours ago, peridot said:

I'm glad Max didn't agree to marry the dim bulb in the parlor.  She was right, marrying a bland guy doesn't mean you will be able to control everything.  Rogers made everything 10x worse for Eleanor. 

I agree.  As much as Max understands the importance of being able to influence others, she also knows, better than almost anyone, the limits of being in a position where your only power is being able to influence someone else.  Rogers may have made things a lot worse for Eleanor, but Eleanor and Rogers made things much worse for Max by ignoring her advice about how to deescalate the situation with the pirate rebellion.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

Oh, OMG, Silver, sending his "six best men."  

  Hide contents

According to Treasure Island, Flint took six men to bury the treasure and came back alone, he killed all six of the men and left one of their corpses pointing to where he buried the treasure.

Spoiler

Well there are eight men on that island right now. The 6 men Silver sent, plus Flint and his "new" partner. And from the previews it looks like Silver goes ashore as well. 

I'm guessing Flint, Silver and Israel Hands makes it off the island alive. Since all are in TI. Though it could be argued that Flint doesn't make it out since he's not actually alive in TI, but I don't think that will happen.

Edited by Enero

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I think this is true.  I saw a parallel between Silver and Max.  Both of them were presented with plans that might change things in the world, both of them chose against those plans because of love and or friendship. 

I thought the betrayal was pretty damn huge.  First Silver dug up the treasure unbeknownst to Flint; then Silver asked Flint for his support and Flint told him, "yes."  THEN Flint takes the treasure and goes to bury it, knowing that Madi would be killed if Rogers' men can't find it.  

But I think Billy is really on Flint's side because of the story Flint told about that island; Billy had chosen it, because he knew that island would mess with men's minds; why would Billy choose that island, knowing it might mess with the governor's men as well?

Silver and Flint are friends, but Flint is so blinded by his anger at England for what they did to he, Thomas and Miranda, that he can see nothing else.  Silver, on the other hand, doesn't want to lose Madi, a woman he loves, the same way Flint lost Thomas.

I'm just waiting to hear the folks on Tumblr, say basically that Madi was the cause of Flint and Silver splitting up.

Oh, OMG, Silver, sending his "six best men."  

  Reveal hidden contents

According to Treasure Island, Flint took six men to bury the treasure and came back alone, he killed all six of the men and left one of their corpses pointing to where he buried the treasure.

And I say, "so what" to them. Silver's been looking for an exit for the past 4 episodes. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Enero said:
  Reveal hidden contents

Well there are eight men on that island right now. The 6 men Silver sent, plus Flint and his "new" partner. And from the previews it looks like Silver goes ashore as well. 

I'm guessing Flint, Silver and Israel Hands makes it off the island alive. Since all are in TI. Though it could be argued that Flint doesn't make it out since he's not actually alive in TI, but I don't think that will happen.

Spoiler

In TI, it's mentioned that Flint died in Savannah, of drinking too much rum.  Also Flint, before he died, gave the treasure map to Billy, and Silver can't know where the treasure is buried because that's why he needed the map to find it.

Share this post


Link to post
41 minutes ago, Neurochick said:
  Hide contents

In TI, it's mentioned that Flint died in Savannah, of drinking too much rum.  Also Flint, before he died, gave the treasure map to Billy, and Silver can't know where the treasure is buried because that's why he needed the map to find it.

Spoiler

Yes. This is what Billy said in TI, that Flint gave him a map to the treasure but it could be argued that was a lie. Flint just handing over the map, I mean. I don't recall there being anyone to corroborate that story, except for Flint and he's dead.

With regards to Silver, him going ashore makes sense, since in TI he seemed to know the island intimately, just not where the treasure was buried. So he can still go ashore and not learn where Flint hides the cache.  

Share this post


Link to post

Endgame is in sight, though I still feel they have an awful lot of ground to cover and characters to account for before reaching Treasure Island.

It hasn't been mentioned yet, but Idelle had a beautiful scene when she confronts Anne about Charlotte's death (back in season two) and defends Max. In the first case it's beautiful continuity to bring up Anne's brutal murder of a defenceless woman, and a lovely vindication of Max who protected Anne in the aftermath. I can understand why fandom didn't much like Eleanor, but I've always been baffled by Max-hate. The woman has been beaten down by life over and over again, but she's kept her dignity and grace throughout all of it.

And that Idelle picks up the knife and cuts the bread for Anne was deeply symbolic of where the end of the story is going for the woman: finally relinquishing their ambition and vengeance and choosing love. At some point the cycle of violence ends with someone just saying: "no more." It's the choice Silver is in the middle of making, and at this point (having seen what happened to Eleanor and the ongoing bloodshed in Nassau) I don't think anyone can say it's the wrong one. As Max said, they can't win a war against civilisation - at least not in the way they've been going about it.

To quote myself from last week:

Quote

In defence of Eleanor, ALL the women of this show have (by necessity) hitched their wagon to a man. It's not an affront to girl-power, it's just the way the world worked back then. Max could only get as far as the madam of a brothel by herself; after that she had to ally with Silver and then Jack to become the "queen of Nassau". Grandma Guthrie can't run her own business, she has to do it hiding behind her husband. I don't think Anne is comparable to Eleanor considering one is a pirate and the other was a businesswoman, but even Anne has expressed on occasion her frustration that she and Jack are linked in everyone's minds: "like we're the same person." The Maroon Queen and Madi are really the only women who command hard power, and even then they're surrounded by male bodyguards. 

So it was interesting to see Grandmother Guthrie put this EXACT proposition to Max, and for her to reject it in favour of making amends with Anne. Max's face when the man was being pointed out to her was inscrutable at the time (I thought she'd go for it) but I suppose she was also pondering the irony that despite how far she's come, she's STILL being pimped out to a man.

Max will survive the show, because she's being given everything she ever wanted, the culmination of her ambition - and rejected it. I'm almost disappointed, but that has been the underlying theme of this season (especially in the lessons learned from Eleanor): that love is more important.  

I hope Mrs Hudson eventually gets home to her kids. I also hope Featherstone makes it out alive, though it's suddenly not looking so good for Joji. 

The debate will probably rage forever over who's most to blame for the Flint/Silver breakup (because despite some hopeful posts, I seriously doubt this is a ploy to fool Rogers) but this has been boiling for a long time. They're pirates: they'll doublecross each other to the grave.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

On second thought, the Flint/Silver split could just be another plan cooked up by them. Now that Billy is in cahoots with Rodgers  they've had to rethink strategy. They know Billy fed Rodgers the Intel on how to split them up so why not give Rodgers and Billy the appearance of that is what has happen? 

If this is all in the plan, why would Silver allow his man to be murdered by Flint (well Hands actually ended the guy). There was no need for that man to die if Flint's move was part of a plan concocted by them. Why have this elaborate scene with Flint and Dooley with Flint undermining Silver? All that needed to be done was to tell Dooley they were moving the cache and needed his help.

Silver's facial expression when he watched Flint dragging the cache on show was not one of the plan is going perfectly. There was no reason for his expression to say what I thought was surprise and hurt. It's all in the plan so why not give us a small smile?

I know this show does its twists but they need to make sense if you go back and watch the scenes again.

Edited by GodsBeloved
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

No Kofi! Do not want!

What I DO want is Silver calling Maddi his wife! Oh my shipper heart grew three sizes today! I wish Maddi had heard that, it would have been even more adorable. Oh Silver, you old softie you. Even more so, he so clearly still valued his friendship with Flint and his loyalty towards him, and he is clearly heart broken that Flint betrayed him.

Speaking of Flint, I do think his friendship with Silver was real, and I don't think he WANTED to betray him, but his tunnel vision is so great, and he hates England so much, that it blinds him to anything and everyone, including his friendship with Silver. Its always been his greatest flow really. He isn't a bad person by his nature, but his bitterness and obsession with revenge leads him to doing awful things and screwing over almost everyone he spends more than five minutes with.

I'm really rooting for Max to make it out, and I'm pretty confident that she will. She's a consummate survivor, but she doesn't go around throwing people under the bus if she doesn't have to. She has betrayed people, but so has everyone else, and have done far worse things than her, so I cut her some slack.

Seriously, I am all about Maddi and Silver coming out of this opening up a little seaside place and just chilling for the next few years.

Come on Billy, get your shit together! Yeah Flint sucks and almost killed you, but its the British that forced you into all this crap in the first place, if I remember right. They ruined your life for shits and giggles! Don't help them!

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post

Whoa, there was so much to love in this episode.  I'm going to need to watch it again to take it all in but just off the top of my head:

  • The scene between Silver and Flint -- OMG the tension was so thick you could cut it with a knife.  That was a tour de force of acting.
  • Adele called out Anne over the murder of poor Charlotte.  About damn time!  But her loyalty to Max is unfailing and I'm loving the girl-power happening in Philadelphia.
  • Max chose love for Anne over being slotted into the power-behind-the-throne role that Grandma Guthrie mapped out for her.  Awww.
  • The hand-holding on the bench in the snow.  AWWWW.

And there were things to hate -- like Flint (you no-good, double-crossing, power-mad, asshole.)

Aaaannd there was one plot-point that I had to scoff at.  How did Grandma Guthrie think the people of Nassau were going to react when a new "Governor" for Nassau showed up with a wife in tow who was:

  1. A known former prostitute and
  2. Mixed-race.

Given the era I find that plot-point highly unrealistic.  But Max said no and it led to that lovely scene with Anne so I can whistle past it.  ETA:  Okay on second viewing I did note Grandma Guthrie saying that the prospective bridegoom's parents were reformers who would find Max's story interesting.  But I still need to whistle a bit to find that plot plausible.  Especially since he was identified as an "only son" of a prominent family.  She should have said a "younger son" -- that would make more sense.

Oh and I'm also going to whistle past the gaping plot hole of Flint somehow getting the cache off the ship in broad daylight with no one noticing.

Edited by WatchrTina
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Come on Billy, get your shit together! Yeah Flint sucks and almost killed you, but its the British that forced you into all this crap in the first place, if I remember right. They ruined your life for shits and giggles! Don't help them!

Billy is sadly very similar to Flint in this regard - he's so blinded by his bitterness and anger towards Flint (and now Silver, and possibly all of the rest of the men who bought Silver's story and turned on him) that it's all he can really see and he's letting it drive his actions now (really, it has been since around the beginning of Season 4). Flint is similarly tunnel-visioned, and I also definitely believe that his friendship with Silver has been real and that he's absolutely capable of genuine friendship, but that he's ultimately a very self-serving man who will throw even those closest to him under the knife if it means he can stick to his plan, especially when it comes to fucking over England in some way. It's interesting to think about the conversations between Silver/Billy and Silver/Flint about their weaknesses now - Silver's is Madi; Flint's is wanting vengeance on England; Billy's is wanting vengeance on Flint. 

That said, I really wouldn't be surprised if there are a few twists left - I think it's difficult to see how there could be some master plan between Silver and Flint on this, considering factors like the crewman that Flint and Israel killed, or Israel having to point out to Silver that Flint was taking off with the treasure and Silver's expression in reaction to that - but I'm also kind of half-expecting that to be the case nonetheless. 

Edited by atlanticslide
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

If this is all in the plan, why would Silver allow his man to be murdered by Flint (well Hands actually ended the guy). There was no need for that man to die if Flint's move was part of a plan concocted by them. Why have this elaborate scene with Flint and Dooley with Flint undermining Silver? All that needed to be done was to tell Dooley they were moving the cache and needed his help.

Silver's facial expression when he watched Flint dragging the cache on show was not one of the plan is going perfectly. There was no reason for his expression to say what I thought was surprise and hurt. It's all in the plan so why not give us a small smile?

I know this show does its twists but they need to make sense if you go back and watch the scenes again.

Agreed.

I don't think we've ever seen Silver this passionate about anything. This is NOT a game to him. Which is why I find it hard to buy the theory that he's in on Flint's plan to steal the cache and bury it on Skeleton/Treasure Island. 

I cannot imagine Silver under any circumstance playing this type of game with Madi's life. In fact he said at the beginning of his argument with Flint that he was "through wagering with her life,"  meaning to me that he was going to play this straight by the book. Whatever Roger wants, he gets as long as it will bring Madi back to him. Therefore him being apart of Flint's plan to take the cache onto the island seems to be IMHO reaching.  

Can I just add that LA and TS were great during that argument. Luke was particularly fantastic. He perfectly conveyed Silver's desperation/determination to get Madi back and his frustration with Flint's reluctance to support his plan and understand all he'd sacrificed for Flint's vague assertion of "trust me." Excellent work by LA.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

Silver should have known that Flint would eventually screw him over if it came to that. I'm surprised Billy resisted saying, "I told you so!"

I must take a moment to note how awesome Idelle's pink robe/dress was.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

On second viewing a noticed a few more things to love.  

Flint is a clever, clever man.  When they are on their way to rescue Madi he tells Silver that after she is rescued and they win the coming war, it is Silver and Madi who will lead Nassau.  He tells Silver that Madi is equally important to their success as the cache.  He tells Silver exactly what Silver needs to hear to remain calm and put his faith in Flint's plan.  I'm pretty sure Flint didn't mean what he said.  I'm pretty sure Flint see HIMSELF running Nassau once he wins his war.  If you watch that scene with the suspicion that Flint is playing Silver in that moment, then his later betrayal is a lot less surprising.

Idelle is clever too.  At first I thought she brought up Charlotte only because this is the first time she and Anne have been alone together and she could finally get that off her chest.  But that's wrong -- they are alone together in an earlier scene -- when Idelle brings in the bread and Anne asks her to do something for her.  No, Idelle brings up Charlotte in that scene only after Anne starts making plans to get on a ship and leave -- to leave Max.  That's why Idelle tells that story -- so that Anne understand how Max had her back and was protecting her even when she was off her rocker and killing innocent people.

I also realized how horrifying Anne's situation is for her.  Recall how devastatingly lethal Anne use to be with her knives.  Now she can't even cut a loaf of bread.  That scene spoke volumes.  You know what else spoke volumes? The fact that Idelle never took her eyes off Anne when she squatted down to pick up the knife.  Because even as damaged as Anne is in that scene, she not someone you look away from if you've just said something even vaguely threatening to her.

I just love all those little notes.

Edited by WatchrTina
  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

If this is all in the plan, why would Silver allow his man to be murdered by Flint (well Hands actually ended the guy). There was no need for that man to die if Flint's move was part of a plan concocted by them. Why have this elaborate scene with Flint and Dooley with Flint undermining Silver? All that needed to be done was to tell Dooley they were moving the cache and needed his help.

Silver's facial expression when he watched Flint dragging the cache on show was not one of the plan is going perfectly. There was no reason for his expression to say what I thought was surprise and hurt. It's all in the plan so why not give us a small smile?

I know this show does its twists but they need to make sense if you go back and watch the scenes again.

The reasons why I am even suggesting the split may not be legit (corny, I know):

Spoiler

There were stills released of the finale episodes which show Flint and Silver side by side like they would appear pre-split.  Seeing those pics and knowing Flint just betrayed Silver, I am just speculating how Silver can be near Flint and not immediately want to slit his throat.

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I thought the betrayal was pretty damn huge.  First Silver dug up the treasure unbeknownst to Flint; then Silver asked Flint for his support and Flint told him, "yes."  THEN Flint takes the treasure and goes to bury it, knowing that Madi would be killed if Rogers' men can't find it.

 

Oh, I apologise for my poor wording! I didn't mean to say the reason for break up wasn't serious. I meant to say I hope it's some sort of ploy by Silver and Flint. But I know it's unlikely.

Edited by Tanya852
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I agree with those of you who think Flint's friendship with Silver was genuine. The problem with Flint is that he is so single-minded in pursuit of revenge that any obstacle put in the path of achieving it, including friends, immediately becomes expendable. On that note I think Flint's friendship with Gates was genuine as well, but that wasn't enough to prevent Gates being murdered the moment he became a problem for Flint.

I also don't think Silver and Flint are cooperating as some sort of ruse. Flint betrayed Silver, and Silver really did send men ashore to kill him.

 

Given we know from Treasure Island that Flint leaves a few dead men on the island, I imagine poor Joji is on borrowed time. I suppose Flint's bearded accomplice becomes the skeleton pointing the way to the treasure?

Did anyone else love the location they chose for Treasure Island? Despite being so lush and tropical there was something about it that looked unsettling. Perfect atmosphere!

Edited by Scaeva
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Aaaannd there was one plot-point that I had to scoff at.  How did Grandma Guthrie think the people of Nassau were going to react when a new "Governor" for Nassau showed up with a wife in tow who was:

  1. A known former prostitute and
  2. Mixed-race.

I feel like the people of Nassau are the last ones she'd have to worry about having an issue with Max.  Like, she was basically in charge of Nassau before Rogers got there, then she was the de facto leader of the council of advisers during Rogers' rule.  Her being a biracial former prostitute didn't particularly hinder her in either role.  

Regarding Silver and Flint, I do think their friendship is genuine, but I also think that, from Flint's perspective, Silver is the one who betrayed him.  In fairness, Silver's decision was, fundamentally, pretty selfish.  I mean, the cache of gems isn't actually his personal property; it belongs to all of them.  Well, I guess technically it's still Anne's, but I think she's effectively donated it to the war effort, as it were.  Either way, Silver trading it for Madi isn't something he's doing because it's right for all of them, it's something he's doing for himself.  Whether or not it's worse than Flint's decision to trade the cache for English forces leaving Nassau is debatable, but I think Flint's perfectly within reason to see Silver's actions as a betrayal.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

The reasons why I am even suggesting the split may not be legit (corny, I know):

  Hide contents

There were stills released of the finale episodes which show Flint and Silver side by side like they would appear pre-split.  Seeing those pics and knowing Flint just betrayed Silver, I am just speculating how Silver can be near Flint and not immediately want to slit his throat.

Can you provide a link please? ?

Spoiler

Well Silver does name his pet parrot after Flint which I guess could count for something. ? So perhaps they do work things out to a point. Or was his parrot named after Flint a way to mock him? I can't recall.

That said, the only pics I've seen are of Episode 9 and 10 , they do show Flint and Silver in the same shot, but I don't know if it necessarily means they're on good terms, especially the shot of them on the Walrus, which almost appears like Silver is running things. The only way I can see Silver giving Flint the time of day is if his plan does somehow get him back Madi, which is possible. Flint is a hell of a manipulator but he's also capable of pulling a fast one that will work in all of their favors. I guess we'll see. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

The reasons why I am even suggesting the split may not be legit (corny, I know):

  Reveal hidden contents

There were stills released of the finale episodes which show Flint and Silver side by side like they would appear pre-split.  Seeing those pics and knowing Flint just betrayed Silver, I am just speculating how Silver can be near Flint and not immediately want to slit his throat.

I agee with that. I saw them too. But I have my theory about that

Spoiler

I think it could be a flashback

but if not I will still find it hard to believe Silver is in on this plan for the reasons I stated and @Enero made some good points too.

Plus one of the creators said this episode was the beginning of the end of their partnership and friendship. 

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, yellowfred said:

Regarding Silver and Flint, I do think their friendship is genuine, but I also think that, from Flint's perspective, Silver is the one who betrayed him.  In fairness, Silver's decision was, fundamentally, pretty selfish.  I mean, the cache of gems isn't actually his personal property; it belongs to all of them.  Well, I guess technically it's still Anne's, but I think she's effectively donated it to the war effort, as it were.  Either way, Silver trading it for Madi isn't something he's doing because it's right for all of them, it's something he's doing for himself.  Whether or not it's worse than Flint's decision to trade the cache for English forces leaving Nassau is debatable, but I think Flint's perfectly within reason to see Silver's actions as a betrayal.

What I respect about Silver is he isn't trying to hide this fact. He isn't bullshitting anyone. He said what he meant and he meant what he said. Madi is more important to him than Flint and his war. He was very clear about that and he wasn't trying to hoodwink Flint or anyone in the crew. His cards were on the table for everyone to see.

For me, a huge difference is we never saw Silver agree to leave the cache buried. What we do know is Silver gave Flint's plan a chance, he just didn't follow him blindly as he's done before. This time he had his own plan B and chose not to share it with Flint.

And now we have Flint saying Madi is as vital to this as is the cache, something Silver said when they found out she was alive. We have Flint saying Silver and Madi are the ones who can hold the new world together. We have Flint agreeing to get behind behind Silver's plan.

Then we see Flint needs a new partner because Silver isn't stable. So was Flint blowing smoke up Silver's behind all along? And Dooley, prayer circle around him ? 

If only Flint said what he meant and meant what he said ... but I'm not sure why Silver is surprised at any of this.

Edited by GodsBeloved
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Recall how devastatingly lethal Anne use to be with her knives.  Now she can't even cut a loaf of bread.  

I don't understand why Anne would unwrap her bandages to attempt to use a knife. Wouldn't the layers of muslin offer some padding against the pain of the pressure of the knife handle? Or a bulwark against her still-injured musculature?

 

9 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

You know what else spoke volumes? The fact that Idelle never took her eyes off Anne when she squatted down to pick up the knife.  Because even as damaged as Anne is in that scene, she not someone you look away from if you've just said something even vaguely threatening to her.

I think, too, that Charlotte wanted to imply a threat to Anne, that she might use the knife against her. Which you can't do looking away. Both things were in play, it seems to me, which is great writing/acting.

If Grammy Guthrie told me to marry some silly-assed dude, I just might do it, that's how awesome Harriet Walter is.

Share this post


Link to post

There's a lot of back and forthing over who is more to blame when it comes to the Flint/Silver breakdown, but one thing is certain: Silver would have watched Madi get shot in the head and tipped overboard if he hadn't secretly brought the cache aboard. He was right to doubt Flint's rescue plan.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, attica said:

Wouldn't the layers of muslin offer some padding against the pain of the pressure of the knife handle? Or a bulwark against her still-injured musculature?

I was thinking she wanted to feel the pain to judge what she could tolerate.

Silver was right to not take any chances with Flint's plan because Madi would be dead. 

I am a Flint apologist but oh man, taking the treasure after lying to Silver :(  I can't quite get behind that.  I hate to see the end of their friendship.   I understand their disagreement about what the right thing to do was because of course they have different opinions about that.  For all Flint told Silver about Silver and Madi being the leaders when the dust settles; well, Flint doesn't value Madi the way Silver does.   I think Flint does (did?) consider Silver a friend and was being honest in that scene while still thinking that though Madi is important, it's ok to have one leader (Silver) if necessary, when of course to Silver, Madi is irreplaceable.  Flint underestimated Silver's feelings, just as he didn't get how deep Billy mistrusted and disliked him - or he didn't care.   Just think if Billy had gone to Silver or Flint and told them where Madi was; how different things could be.   Billy was kind of in a no-win-he hate Flint, was beaten by Silver's men, but I don't think it's smart to trust Rogers. 

21 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

The scene between Silver and Flint -- OMG the tension was so thick you could cut it with a knife.  That was a tour de force of acting.

So much this!!  Toby Stephens and Luke Arnold really work well together.

I think they showed only two episodes left :((  I will miss this show.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
23 hours ago, ulkis said:

Silver should have known that Flint would eventually screw him over if it came to that. I'm surprised Billy resisted saying, "I told you so!"

Billy's "and what other order?" was both an "I told you so" and the vindication he needed that he was right all along about Flint 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
On 3/19/2017 at 7:59 AM, FlowerofCarnage said:

On second thought, the Flint/Silver split could just be another plan cooked up by them. Now that Billy is in cahoots with Rodgers  they've had to rethink strategy. They know Billy fed Rodgers the Intel on how to split them up so why not give Rodgers and Billy the appearance of that is what has happen? 

I know it's a bonkers plan, but I can totally see it playing out. Rogers is in the way of Madi and getting the island back. They've already cocked the 'nothing we can't do when we are of the same mind' gun. 

Now, it may be that the plan goes eventually sideways, and they never get back to the treasure like they wanted because they aren't counting on Jack to do whatever Jack things he's got plotting. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I liked that this episode had a lot of discussion around "What happens next?" That's been my hang up with the pirate POV for a long while now. The discussion around that in this ep didn't answer everything, but it did at least show that some thought has been given to it by the main characters.

What I don't know, yet, is whether the show is trying to say that the pirates' struggle against "civilization" is admirable and doomed to fail because of the march of progress, or that the struggle is admirable and might have had a chance to succeed if only the flawed leaders (Flint. Silvers, Rackham, Billy, Madi) had just worked together and made different decisions. Or it isn't admirable at all, and we are watching doomed figures dance before their inevitable demise.

BTW, at first I thought Max's refusal of Grandma Guthrie's plan was unusually short-sighted for Max. I can't buy the "I did it for love" explanation, either. I think Max realized that even if she controlled her suggested husband and ran things day-to-day on Nassau, she would still be a puppet of yet another, more powerful figure (Granny) who could change Max's circumstances at any time for any reason, and Max didn't want that yet again. I get that.

Edited by Ottis

Share this post


Link to post

Yeah, I thought Max would marry a rich guy that she could control and use to run Nassau but given at that time a woman was pretty much the property of her husband I can see why she wouldn't take the risk. I also doubt she did it for Ann. I never really bought into their relationship.

Share this post


Link to post

Toby Stephens said in an interview that

Spoiler

there is a character that ends up being truly loyal to Flint, and it’s wonderful. In the last few episodes, one of the characters comes into the fore that’s been in the background, and it’s interesting to see what happens there.

http://collider.com/black-sails-season-4-toby-stephens-interview/#lost-in-space-netflix

 

Does anyone have any ideas whom this could be?  Is it the guy he gets to take the treasure ashore with him (no idea what his name is)?  Because I don't remember ever seeing this guy before.  Have we met him previously?

Share this post


Link to post

@MaryMatts, Dooley played a fairly prominent role in the Walrus crew last season.  He's the one who interrupted Madi and Silver flirting talking to tell Silver about Dobbs attacking one of Madi's men, as well as the one who beat Dobbs with the sap as a message from Silver.  In fact, I'm pretty sure Dooley (or maybe Dobbs) was the one reinacting Dufresne's Demise for the crew, too.  This season, he's the one who looked to Flint for confirmation of Silver's orders during the "You heard him" scene.  At the time, I felt a bit betrayed, like "Dooley, I thought you were Silver's guy."  Now, I see where that was headed.

Edited by netlyon2

Share this post


Link to post

So you think it could be Dooley?  I have to say I have a great deal of difficulty remenbering who these minor characters are because they don't show up very often.  There are so many faces in this cast it's bad enough trying to remember all the main characters, lol.

Share this post


Link to post
On 3/23/2017 at 8:57 AM, MaryMatts said:

So you think it could be Dooley?  I have to say I have a great deal of difficulty remenbering who these minor characters are because they don't show up very often.  There are so many faces in this cast it's bad enough trying to remember all the main characters, lol.

You just have to remember 1 guy, Joji, the Asian who never said a word :D :D :D

I was surprised he was 1 of the 6 Silver's best men tasked to kill Flint as I thought Joji's loyalty was to Flint

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Quote

You just have to remember 1 guy, Joji, the Asian who never said a word :D :D :D

I was surprised he was 1 of the 6 Silver's best men tasked to kill Flint as I thought Joji's loyalty was to Flint  

Lol, yeah know all about Joji. I have a friend who thinks he's totally hot.  I think. Since he never spoke that we don't really know whom he roots for. Remember, the crew love Silver because of what he did for them when he lost his leg.

 

i wonder if Joji is even an actor?  There is a review site that gives the actor's names and also adds their movie or tv work. Joji has nothing after his name.

Share this post


Link to post

Ok so I looked him up.  He has about three credits on IMDb.  Then this in trivia:

 

Quote

Together with brother Quentin Chong, runs the Dragon Power Martial Arts and Fitness Centre in Cape Town, which is considered as one of the most advanced fighting centers in the world.

I think I read a tweet by one of the BS actors who said he trained them.

Share this post


Link to post
On 3/20/2017 at 0:19 AM, ulkis said:

Silver should have known that Flint would eventually screw him over if it came to that. I'm surprised Billy resisted saying, "I told you so!"

When I rewatch particular episodes/scenes, sometimes I laugh and think how right Billy was about Flint.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
×