Daenerys 'Stormborn' Targaryen: The Breaker Of Chains, Mother Of Dragons Etc

[Spartan Girl]

Amazing what Emilia can do with only five minutes of screentime and three words of dialogue.

I loved how Dany was so clearly moved she was to be back in her homeland. The way she touched the land, her eyes brimming with emotion, so overwhelmed that she could barely hold it together.

And then once she reaches the throne room in Dragonstone, she sucks it up and gets straight to business: "Shall we begin?"

[stormborn]

On 7/23/2017 at 11:37 AM, doram said:

The book is called a "song of ice and fire". People've been rooting for R+L=J & for Jon/Dany endgame for over two decades.

But isn't Jon by himself a song of ice and fire? That's something I've never quite gotten. Wouldn't Jon and Dany union would be a song of ice, fire, fire and fire?

But I, myself, am personally of the mind that the book title is more about the war for the dawn and little to do with a fairy-tale ending between an aunt and a nephew. 

[Katsullivan]

2 hours ago, doram said:

Lots of people felt the R+L=J theory was fairytale and cliche-esque too. So they were disappointed with the reveal, which was so odd considering what in retrospect were obvious clues.

I think the problem is that TV these days is so obsessed with being Clever! Apparently, there’s this thinking, which I don’t agree with but the showrunners certainly seem to have bought it, that if a story is Predictable, then it’s failed. If the audience aren’t completely blown away by a TWEEEEST, even if on reflection that twist makes absolute no narrative sense other than the fact that it’s UNPredictable – then they won’t enjoy the story.

Here’s a little known truth – tropes and clichés become tropes and clichés because they work. The story about the underdog character winning some one-in-a-million victory and becomes a lauded hero? The lost prince/Arthur/FisherKing-esque character returns to Camelot, heals the land and gets crowned? Think everything from Arthur himself to Prince Zuko. The bad guy is winning, all hope is lost, our heroes are despairing, then the Calvary arrives and turns the tide? Who else didn’t go ‘fuck yeah’ when the Vale army showed up at the Battle of the bastards?

The hard past of story-telling isn’t conjuring an impossible twist that no one could have seen coming from a mile away (because he literally pulled it out of his a$$ at the last minute), it’s getting viewers so invested in the characters’s journeys, invested in the story, so rooting for that Predictable end, that when it comes, everyone (mostly) gives that collective ‘Fuck Yeah!’

GRRM got me invested in the Fire & Blood romance between Jon and Dany, regards of puritanical views on their relationship. He's already done the hard part. The easy part now is delivering the 'Fuck yeah!' moment to their story. 

[Spartan Girl]

Had to laugh at the look Dany gave Jon when he said "beautiful" wasn't the word he'd use to describe her dragons.  LOL!  Don't ever insult children in front of their mother, Jon.

[Neko]

So, once again, we get the speech from Dany about how she plans on "breaking the wheel".  My question is, how does she plan on doing that?  It's not enough just to say it, she has to present the common people with a plan.  Of course, if you have three fire-breathing dragons and you believe it's your birthright/destiny to rule, I suppose you can say whatever you like, but still, give me something to work with, baby girl.  This shit is skating dangerously close to Crazy Town.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Sweet Summer Child

[Colorful Mess]

6 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

So you want to condemn judge Dany? You want to condemn her for not being EXTRA GOOD™? Then do it in in the fair context of the characters and the world and the story. Otherwise, it's just as relevant that the only way you can attack her is by holding her to an impossible standard that has been proven impractical.

There is a possible standard - Jon. Sam. Davos. Brienne. 

It's not just about winning.

Tywin style tactics, is not the moral of the story. It will help you win in the short term; but this approach won't help you in the long run. 

The extra good criteria comes from Dany being unique; she IS different from every other person who wants to be king/queen because she has more agency than the other characters to get what she wants. If she just wanted to be a conqueror and leave the ruling to someone else; it might be different. But she wants to be both. And since she has nuclear weapons that she fetishizes as her children, I would definitely hope that she's better than Cersei (which...is actually a backhanded compliment from Jon).

In terms of petty squabbling over the Iron Chair, Dany can do whatever the hell she wants to win. She can Red Wedding the hell out of the Lannisters if she wants. She is an excellent conqueror, but it's basic ASOIAF 101 that a good conqueror doesn't necessarily make a good ruler. And we are not shown that Dany can really ever turn off her conqueror mode. She tries in Meereen to be a peaceful, competent queen - and her strategies actually work! - but she is irrationally angry that she has to compromise with people she dislikes (this is more in the books, obviously). So she flipped the mother of dragons/conqueror switch. If the question was "Should Dany be nice and sweet if she wants to win?" The answer is obviously NO. Instead the question should be "Does she have anything else to offer people, other than rule by fear and endless war?"

And that's why she does have to be better than the rest - because she herself has set herself up to that impossible standard. "I'm going to break the wheel." I didn't say this - Dany did.

Unfortunately, she is caught in a bind trying to be better while trying to be ruthless at the same time. This is the dilemma she's faced with, when she reaches Westeros. She wants to burn down the Red Keep. But if she does that, she's "not different, she's just more of the same." If she wants to prove Ned, Robert, Renly, Stannis, Cersei, fAegon, and whoever else wrong and beat them to the throne, she'll probably win. But again it's back to Mirri's lesson. What is a life worth, when all the rest is gone? What does it matter if Dany saved the life of one little girl whom Cersei would have neglected, if Dany killed that girl's brother and father (soldiers) to save her?

"Are you a brother of the Night's Watch, or a bastard boy who wants to play at war?" Dany is playing at war.

Stannis was playing at war too; but in some small way he still made more of an effort to fight the NK thus far in the story. Doing something for the greater good without self-interest appears to be the author's litmus test for what makes a good king/queen. Him burning his daughter is definitely deluded, but it's also about him thinking he has to give something up. He has drunk the Mel cool aid (which...I'm soooo glad Jon has not). He should have realized that a self-sacrifice is probably more effective. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[whateverdgaf]

I certainly believe it is reasonable to hold Daenerys to a higher moral standard to anyone else. She has more power than anyone else in the series, and wishes to become even more powerful in becoming rhe ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. As a result her flaws and failures have great potential to bring catastrophic results not just for herself, but for the kingdom as a whole. The suffering her mistakes may cause is limitless. If she was simply thrust into this position of power, we can be less judgemetal. But she is actively seeking to become responsible for the lives of millions and desires to be in a position where any failings on her part can cause untold grief. So for her to be expected to at least strive for moral perfection and complete competance is not unreasonable,  as the role she has chosen to take on does not leave room for anything else.

[Happy Harpy]

Jorah: "You don't need Yunkai, Khaleesi. Taking this city won't bring you any closer to Westeros or the Iron Throne."

Daenerys: "How many slaves is there in Yunkai?"

Jorah: "Two hundred thousands, if not more."

Daenerys:  "Then we have two hundred thousand reasons to take this city".

The Bear and The Maiden Fair, 3x07. An understated badass moment and very telling of Daenerys' priorities and motivations.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Happy Harpy
Spelling argh.

[anamika]

It's funny that Dany is the only character with power who is required to continuously do good with her power - despite her already having done so - liberating the slaves and unsullied of Meereen. No other character with power has done good with their power. They have all squabbled to get power- same as Dany - but there is no expectation on any of the other characters to do good with that power once they get it. The only other character doing something good I can think of is Jon saving the Wildlings by letting them through the wall.

5 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

I certainly believe it is reasonable to hold Daenerys to a higher moral standard to anyone else. She has more power than anyone else in the series, and wishes to become even more powerful in becoming rhe ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. As a result her flaws and failures have great potential to bring catastrophic results not just for herself, but for the kingdom as a whole. The suffering her mistakes may cause is limitless.

Let's be clear here - Every main character in this series is a noble who has great power. Their mistakes and actions has cost the smallfolk their lives. Jaime and Cersei's adultery spawned three bastards that led to the WOT5K in which thousands perished and the Riverlands ravaged - more damage than Dany has been able to do. Robb, Stannis, Renly, Euron, Jon, Sansa etc. all campaigned for and waged war in which thousands perished.

Sansa campaigned for and got an army to fight against the Boltons so that she could be Lady of Winterfell or Queen in the North. Therefore she should also be held to higher standards - the same as Dany.  Jon makes the decision of who gets punished or not, who gets which castle - As KITN, Jon has the power to make life or death decisions for the others around him. He therefore should also be held to high standards - his decisions could also have immense consequences.

Arya's harrowing journey through the war torn Westeros in ACoK and ASoS, Brienne's journey in AFfC all shows the effect of war on the smallfolk - and it's not Dany's war that they are suffering from. The Starks, Lannisters and Baratheons are all responsible fo that war.

I will just paste the Broken Man speech here from AFfC:

Quote

Broken men are more deserving of our pity, though they may be just as dangerous. Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. They've heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know.

"Then they get a taste of battle.

"For some, that one taste is enough to break them. Others go on for years, until they lose count of all the battles they have fought in, but even a man who has survived a hundred fights can break in his hundred-and-first. Brothers watch their brothers die, fathers lose their sons, friends see their friends trying to hold their entrails in after they've been gutted by an axe.

"They see the lord who led them there cut down, and some other lord shouts that they are his now. They take a wound, and when that's still half-healed they take another. There is never enough to eat, their shoes fall to pieces from the marching, their clothes are torn and rotting, and half of them are shitting in their breeches from drinking bad water.

"If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they're fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it's just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don't know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they're fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world . . .

"And the man breaks.

"He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide. All thought of home is gone by then, and kings and lords and gods mean less to him than a haunch of spoiled meat that will let him live another day, or a skin of bad wine that might drown his fear for a few hours. The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them . . . but he should pity them as well."

When Meribald was finished a profound silence fell upon their little band. Brienne could hear the wind rustling through a clump of pussywillows, and farther off the faint cry of a loon. She could hear Dog panting softly as he loped along beside the septon and his donkey, tongue lolling from his mouth. The quiet stretched and stretched, until finally she said, "How old were you when they marched you off to war?"

"Why, no older than your boy," Meribald replied. "Too young for such, in truth, but my brothers were all going, and I would not be left behind. Willam said I could be his squire, though Will was no knight, only a potboy armed with a kitchen knife he'd stolen from the inn. He died upon the Stepstones, and never struck a blow. It was fever did for him, and for my brother Robin. Owen died from a mace that split his head apart, and his friend Jon Pox was hanged for rape."

"The War of the Ninepenny Kings?" asked Hyle Hunt.

"So they called it, though I never saw a king, nor earned a penny. It was a war, though. That it was."

If it is reasonable to hold Dany to higher standards because she has more power, then it is reasonable to hold Jon, Sansa, Robb, Tyrion, Brienne, Jaime, Cersei, Tyrells, Martells, Boltons - every noble house in the books and on the show to higher standards because they all have more power and their wars and battles and little games have destroyed the lives of the small folk.

And I agree that that's a fair proposition. I just think it's double standard that no once cares about responsibility, and power and lives destroyed when it's the Starks waging war.  But the minute Dany gets to Westeros, 21st century morals suddenly comes into the picture and war is bad and killing soldiers is bad and Dany should do good blah, blah...The hypocrisy is so blatantly obvious.

Now Jon and Dany have focused on the WW threat. Dany has paused her mission and gone North to help. That's using her power for the greater good. So now we have two instances of Dany using her great power for good. Again, more than any other character has done.

I mean compare her to Jaime who hanged some hungry outlaws - the result of the war he caused - and then boasts about being 'Goldenhand the Just'. Ugh. The joke here is when folks see characters like Jaime as a hero because he's hot and witty and aww he really likes Brienne , but Dany has to be EXTRA GOOD™ (Thanks! @Katsullivan) to earn brownie points in fandom.

Everyone's cheering for Jaime leaving Cersei and finally going North to help. But Dany going North with all her armies and dragons to help? Not enough. She still needs to be EXTRA GOOD™.

Edited April 6, 2018 by anamika

[ursula]

33 minutes ago, anamika said:

The only other character doing something good I can think of is Jon saving the Wildlings by letting them through the wall.

If Jon hadn't saved the wildlings, they would have been added to the wight army. 

Not saying that Jon isn't a good man but there's a practical reason to save the wildlings for him. There wasn't a practical reason to liberate Yunkai for Daenerys.

[GraceK]

39 minutes ago, anamika said:

But Dany going North with all her armies and dragons to help? Not enough. She still needs to be EXTRA GOOD

Well, apparently Dany motives aren’t PURE. Even though she went beyond the wall with her dragons who she considered her children to rescue Jon and Jorah simply because Jon asked her too, and lost Viserion in the process, it means jack shit because she went to the dragon pit for a summit meeting for a ceasefire.  Apparently, even though she’s committing herself, her dragons and her armies 100% to saving the world, she still sucks because at the end of the Great War she still seems , at least at the moment to want the iron throne. I guess she has to  prostrate herself at Jon’s feet and ask to be whipped while screaming how unworthy she is for some people to feel she deserves anything.

Edited April 6, 2018 by GraceK

[ursula]

4 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I guess she has to  prostrate herself at Jon’s feet and ask to be whipped while screaming how unworthy she is for some people to feel she deserves anything.

Kinky. ?

[whateverdgaf]

Quote

If it is reasonable to hold Dany to higher standards because she has more power, then it is reasonable to hold Jon, Sansa, Robb, Tyrion, Brienne, Jaime, Cersei, Tyrells, Martells, Boltons - every noble house in the books and on the show to higher standards because they all have more power and their wars and battles and little games have destroyed the lives of the small folk.

And I agree that that's a fair proposition. I just think it's double standard that no once cares about responsibility, and power and lives destroyed when it's the Starks waging war.  But the minute Dany gets to Westeros, 21st century morals suddenly comes into the picture and war is bad and killing soldiers is bad and Dany should do good blah, blah...The hypocrisy is so blatantly obvious.

I do hold the Starks/Lannisters/Baratheons etc to a higher standard and I do judge them. For example, I personally don't give a shit that Robb's father was exectuted, he should have grovelled and begged for peace and preferably the return of his sisters. But Dany is currently the only person present with dragons at her disposal and an army of Unsullied and Dothraki at her disposal, she is also the only person apart from Cersei who is fighting to be ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. So I stil hold her to a  higher moral standard than the cast at present because she is still the most powerful person with the greatest amibtions, apart from Night King who also has a massive army and dragon and Cersei who is also ambitious, but are in fact the antagonists and therefore I don't hold them to any moral standard, as the expectation is I dislike them and dissaprove of their actions.

[ursula]

Going through the old threads, I just don't see this kind of discussion about Robb's War. Most people still talk about Northern Independence as a thing to aspire to --- and not the aristocracy declaring Civil War on behalf of the ordinary people who will have to fight that war, and suffer the brunt of the brutality of the wars.

Nor can I find any discussion that Sansa should have abandoned Winterfell like Jon suggested and how it was morally wrong that a lot of wildlings, and Northern men were going to die so Jon and his sister can live in a castle.

And I am yet to find an argument questioning what right 10-year-old Lyanna Mormont had to sentence 68 men to almost certain death. 

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Going through the old threads, I just don't see this kind of discussion about Robb's War. Most people still talk about Northern Independence as a thing to aspire to --- and not the aristocracy declaring Civil War on behalf of the ordinary people who will have to fight that war, and suffer the brunt of the brutality of the wars.

Nor can I find any discussion that Sansa should have abandoned Winterfell like Jon suggested and how it was morally wrong that a lot of wildlings, and Northern men were going to die so Jon and his sister can live in a castle.

And I am yet to find an argument questioning what right 10-year-old Lyanna Mormont had to sentence 68 men to almost certain death. 

I'm sure many fans would level the same critique, if Robb was attacking Essos in an expansionist imperialist policy to regain control of the Free Cities. And say that he took his troops to a completely different continent, that neither he nor his soldiers had ever stepped foot in, but he's doing this because his brother ruled there at one point, and he thinks it's his. He already had the kingdom to rule up North, but that wasn't enough. He just had to have those Nine Free Cities because he wants to restore his family's legacy, even though the last thing the Free Cities needs is another war, and even though no one really wants that legacy restored. And say that to justify himself, he said something like: “He could stay in Winterfell with Talisa. Their child would one day rule the North...that should be enough for any man . . . but not for the wolf.” (adapted from Dany, AGOT, Chapter 54).

You bet your ass if he did that I'd be mocking him at every turn. 

I still think his war was stupid (Talisa points this out, in the show) and I do think he should have bent the knee at some point. I like Cat's advice. He squandered his victories by being incapable of playing the marriage game. But regardless of his failures, "Northern Independence" is more sympathetic of a cause than this Free Cities scenario that mirrors Dany's quest.

I'd also be criticizing Lyanna Mormont, if she sent her troops to attack Braavos to reclaim some property that she felt belonged to her, because her father owned a castle there at some point, but he got kicked out of that castle because he was crazy and unstable and was terrorizing his neighbors. Like Lyanna, girl...just chill...

The reason I bring up Braavos and the Free Cities is because they are on a completely different continent, relative to Dany in Slaver's - excuse me Dragons! - Bay. She already has a kingdom, safety, people who worship her. BUT THATS NOT ENOUGH?!

Dany's war just doesnt have the same ring to it as Northern Independence / Stark restoration. Not to mention the fact that Dany's disinheritance and injustice as a young girl happened in flashback. Stark injustice occurs in real time - we literally watch the destruction of House Stark unfold throughout the novels, to our horror (or maybe you didn't care that much? I dunno). Even in the flashbacks, Targaryens were the aggressors; the Starks were up North minding their own business until Rhaegar pulled a Littlefinger and just HAD to have his Stark girl (not to excuse Lyanna for being ignorant here too of course, but Rhaegar had more agency/power in this scenario and should have known better). Dany was innocent of that of course. But if she wants to restore her family's legacy, that means she's also restoring their fuck-ups and failures.

Additionally, I would also add that the Starks can always play the "rally the North to fight the White Walkers" card. Ramsay functions in the story like Mad King Aerys. He's just going to get in the way of the larger fight; while murdering people for the fun of it. As Sansa rationalizes in S7, the people look to Winterfell as a stronghold/place of defense in the Winter when the threat comes.  I think Davos mentioned the WW when he tried to persuade Lyanna to fight for them. So they have an altruistic reason to defend the realm AND they have a personal/safety reason as well. I would hazard a guess that the Starks have more sympathy on their side because the Starks are the heroes and Dany is the antagonist.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[anamika]

On the show, my favorite character is Dany, especially last season.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but as a woman, seeing Dany on Drogon fighting at the head of her army and demolishing the Lannisters in the field of fire 2.0 was wonderful. I still get chills every time I watch that battle and Dany makes her appearance on Drogon. There's just something about this petite, little woman who does things like fall in love and talk romance and sex with her bestie, but can also get on her dragon and do some damage. There's no character like her on TV and it's something for me that the most powerful character on one of the most popular shows in the world is a woman. Especially in a fantasy series. She just exudes power and charm and I love it. When she is extolling the Dothraki to fight for, I was cheering right along with them:

Barbaric and savage? I really don't care! I love it. There's just so much raw energy here. Go Dany!

On the show, Jon is emo and brooding and it's hard to get him to speak up, Sansa's constant whinging is annoying, Arya has become a mean psychopath, Bran is an exposition automaton, Tyrion is a pacifist idiot, Theon has no story anymore. But I still enjoy watching Dany. Especially when she took on the Lannisters and finally dealt them a defeat that saw Jaime run off with his tail between his legs. Those Lannisters have been shitting on everyone for 7 seasons now and I truly enjoyed all those sad looks that Jaime was doling out during the battle.

That's why I will be bitterly disappointed if Dany gets a shitty ending next season and dies in child birth or as Nissa Nissa as some such nonsense. If she has to die, I hope she goes out in a blaze of glory wreaking havoc on the NK and his army.

[GraceK]

57 minutes ago, anamika said:

On the show, my favorite character is Dany, especially last season.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but as a woman, seeing Dany on Drogon fighting at the head of her army and demolishing the Lannisters in the field of fire 2.0 was wonderful. I still get chills every time I watch that battle and Dany makes her appearance on Drogon. There's just something about this petite, little woman who does things like fall in love and talk romance and sex with her bestie, but can also get on her dragon and do some damage. There's no character like her on TV and it's something for me that the most powerful character on one of the most popular shows in the world is a woman. Especially in a fantasy series. She just exudes power and charm and I love it. When she is extolling the Dothraki to fight for, I was cheering right along with them:

 

Barbaric and savage? I really don't care! I love it. There's just so much raw energy here. Go Dany!

On the show, Jon is emo and brooding and it's hard to get him to speak up, Sansa's constant whinging is annoying, Arya has become a mean psychopath, Bran is an exposition automaton, Tyrion is a pacifist idiot, Theon has no story anymore. But I still enjoy watching Dany. Especially when she took on the Lannisters and finally dealt them a defeat that saw Jaime run off with his tail between his legs. Those Lannisters have been shitting on everyone for 7 seasons now and I truly enjoyed all those sad looks that Jaime was doling out during the battle.

That's why I will be bitterly disappointed if Dany gets a shitty ending next season and dies in child birth or as Nissa Nissa as some such nonsense. If she has to die, I hope she goes out in a blaze of glory wreaking havoc on the NK and his army.

Preach. I agree with pretty much all the above except I truly do love Jon as well :) my heart just about up and died in Beyond the wall when Dany rode up like the hero in an epic tale on her dragon to rescue him ( usually the gender roles are reversed in fantasy stories) :)

Edited April 7, 2018 by GraceK

[anamika]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Preach. I agree with pretty much all the above except I truly do love Jon as well :) my heart just about up and died in Beyond the wall when Dany rode up like the hero in an epic tale on her dragon to rescue him ( usually the gender roles are reversed in fantasy stories) :)

:) I am enjoying the gender role reversal in the Jon-Dany dynamics as well.

Anecdotally, I work in a small village in south India. People here don't have much, and there's poverty and illiteracy. But they have smart phones and cable TV! And they watch Game of Thrones! I doubt they understand much in terms of story and I think they mostly watch for the CGI, action scenes, dragons and colorful characters. I know one family who think that the story is set in medieval Britain and that the characters are kings and queens in England :)

But the women here absolutely love Dany. They are always cheering and clapping when she shows up on screen. I suspect for women who have been taught to be meek, obedient, womanly and circumspect, they find the take-charge, ambitious, powerful Dany new and refreshing to watch.

Hindu mythology has lots of powerful Goddesses who slay demons with their spears and axes (Westerners maybe familiar with Kali) but on Indian TV there is a dearth of strong female characters.  Female characters on popular Indian TV and movies leave much to be desired in terms of characterization and plot. They are stereotyped into the typical daughter in laws, mother in laws, the girlfriend, wife etc. If the character is wearing make-up she is evil and if she is dressed modestly and conservatively she is good. They have to listen to the man because the man is always right.

I may shit on this show for their terrible adaptation of some of my favorite book characters. But I also appreciate the global reach of this show and it's varied female characters that entertain viewers in remote parts of the world.

And to end, I love this picture of Dany in the World of Ice and Fire book:

[GraceK]

30 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

m still laughing at that one. Can you imagine Stannis with 3 dragons? That's a scary picture. Years after this show has ended, people will still not be able to accept that Stannis was never going to be the true hero in this story. 

Agreed. People who condemn Dany for her insistence on her right to the throne due to the pesky fact of her family ruling for three hundred years ( and in fact creating the Iron Throne) and by blood through her father the King who was overthrown seem to have no problem ignoring Stannis proclaiming that he has a right by blood through his brother and also that he has DIVINE right through GOD himself because he is the actual MESSIAH. Seriously. Oh, and Stannis burns people on the word of a Red Witch who don’t follow his religion and has murdered two family members in dark rituals. 

But Dany is worse because of...reasons? Vagina?...Dragons...?

Edited April 7, 2018 by GraceK

[Lady S.]

11 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Agreed. People who condemn Dany for her insistence on her right to the throne due to the pesky fact of her family ruling for three hundred years ( and in fact creating the Iron Throne) and by blood through her father the King who was overthrown seem to have no problem ignoring Stannis proclaiming that he has a right by blood through his brother and also that he has DIVINE right through GOD himself because he is the actual MESSIAH. Seriously. Oh, and Stannis burns people on the word of a Red Witch who don’t follow his religion and has murdered two family members in dark rituals. 

But Dany is worse because of...reasons? Vagina?...Dragons...?

I love how Mel gets blamed for all of his wrongdoing yet it's treated as if she was right about him being the messiah and he was right to believe in it. Maybe, just maybe, Stannis was the first monarch to go north to fight the WWs because he was the only one who knew about them at the time. Would Stannis have put his fight with the Lannisters on hold to save the NW if it was only the wildlings threatening them? Doubtful imho.

Btw, aside from Dany, Cersei, Tyrion and Stannis, know who else burned their enemies alive?

Fire and Blood, baby.

(Yeah, Ramsay was a monster but beating someone to death with your fists is pretty savage, and the only reason Jon stopped was to let Sansa kill him in an even more savage way.)

[Colorful Mess]

4 hours ago, screamin said:

Dany demanding a ceasefire is not just about greed for power. It is also strategically necessary if the NK is to be stopped - gathering a large army and marching North to face one enemy is doomed if another enemy takes advantage of your departure to attack you from the rear, burning your army's winter supplies and home base.

Of course, a formal agreement of ceasefire is useless if you're negotiating with a dishonorable enemy who won't respect any promise made - but deciding to do that's on Jon as well as Dany.

In theory it looks rational, so I think that's why it went over the audience's head. But they didn't write it as Dany acting rationally and making a case that Cersei would attack them. It was written about her being either naive, self-interested, or not wanting to give Cersei an advantage - not exactly the same level as "defend the realm from two threats." There are three instances where her dialogue suggests that Dany doesn't want to lose to Cersei: "As soon as I march away, she marches in" (0705), "I’m grateful for your loyalty, but my dragon died so that we could be here. If it’s all for nothing, then he died for nothing." (0707) "I can’t forget what I saw north of the Wall. And I can’t pretend that Cersei won’t take back half the country the moment I march north." (0707). I think these lines indicate that Dany wants some compensation for her loss of the dragon, which again makes it look like her dragon is more important than Jon's her people. She also says before that last line, "If I had trusted you, everything would be different." which means she appears to regret the entire wight hunt disaster. She's mad at herself for not trusting Jon sooner, which humanizes her (thankfully). However, then she still tells him that Cersei will "take back half the country," i.e. her territory that she's gained. It sounds like she's focused on winning, not protecting people. I'm not sure if that's true, but that's how it comes across. She is torn; but it also appears that she's fickle while an apocalypse is going on. That's why I think the season has framed it as a choice for her - duty vs. desire. They could have easily given her a line of dialogue like Sansa's warnings about Cersei "everyone she's crossed she's found a way to murder." Or "we need to strategize a way to face both threats equally". But I think the idea was that Dany is written as too trusting, naive, and not really understanding what she's facing. She doesn't understand Cersei, she doesn't understand the Night King, and she doesn't understand Winter. 

As for Jon - oh boy. What a mess. Hard to say what he was thinking at all because we're blocked from his thoughts for most of the season. Really hate how he was written because we get no insight on his decisions. However, in an attempt to explain his motives, I think he threw the kitchen sink (i.e. the North) at her after the wight hunt expedition. She said that she would help him defeat the Night King, but they're sailing in the opposite direction to do it, and she appears to have no sense of urgency like Jon does. Both on the boat and at the dragonpit he asserts that Dany has the North. I think it's to reinforce in her mind that she has to defend the North, and that there is one threat that is much more pressing right now. Cersei can wait.  Dany's dragon died North of the Wall. Jon saw a wight polar bear, he has to know that a wight dragon can now fly OVER the Wall. So I think while wight hunt was a terrible idea and all parties can be blamed to some degree, I think Jon was trying to correct for that failure by giving Dany something in exchange so she will abandon the ceasefire. The ceasefire wouldn't be THAT bad if they hadn't created a wight dragon. Now if Dany continues to go south, waste time, despite all the warnings against it - and time is of the essence - she starts looking even less queenly. 

I get the idea that they are stuck between two threats, but the ceasefire was a revealing feature of Dany's characterization. It was about having her make a choice (like all good drama), but somehow she didn't want to make a choice - she wanted both. And no character in this show or books can ever have both things they want. Practically, it was a bad idea because 1) Cersei cut Dany out of the negotiations anyway, and 2) Cersei isn't going to honor her word. The fact that Dany agreeing to help the North now hangs on Cersei's word still astounds me. But for the time being, it did serve a function to get Dany to agree, and from Tyrion's standpoint, it placates her so that she can actually look heroic instead of looking like her father. It was a tepid success that came at great cost, because if Dany "had trusted him, everything would be different."

ETA: Per his convo with Sansa in 0701, I think Jon is gambling that Winter will fend off any southern soldiers that try to march North. Probably flawed thinking as we'll see in S8, but he knows that Winter will at least thin their ranks and demoralize them (like Stannis' men). Winter is the North's secret weapon. The Russians used it to their advantage multiple times. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[anamika]

Ramin Djawadi's take on Dany's theme 'Reign' with an electric guitar accompaniment!

Love the Targaryen themes on the show. Has so much energy and excitement.

Edited May 5, 2018 by anamika

[anamika]

Dany recap season 1-7

[Spartan Girl]

Why are they doing this to Dany and to us? Seven seasons of building her up, only to tear her down with this lazy Evil/Mad Queen storyline?

Sure Dany's been ambitious and ruthless, but trying to paint her as an unfit ruler when she's losing everything -- two dragons, her armies, Missandei, Jorah, Jon, her belief that she was the one true heir -- while the North shits on her, Varys and maybe Tyrion are turning on her after their so-called advice keeps failing, and Cersei being the absolute worst?! It's just not fair.

[JennyMominFL]

6 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Why are they doing this to Dany and to us? Seven seasons of building her up, only to tear her down with this lazy Evil/Mad Queen storyline?

Sure Dany's been ambitious and ruthless, but trying to paint her as an unfit ruler when she's losing everything -- two dragons, her armies, Missandei, Jorah, Jon, her belief that she was the one true heir -- while the North shits on her, Varys and maybe Tyrion are turning on her after their so-called advice keeps failing, and Cersei being the absolute worst?! It's just not fair.

Its all perspective. I think she's been an unfit ruler for years.

[Maximum Taco]

14 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Why are they doing this to Dany and to us? Seven seasons of building her up, only to tear her down with this lazy Evil/Mad Queen storyline?

Sure Dany's been ambitious and ruthless, but trying to paint her as an unfit ruler when she's losing everything -- two dragons, her armies, Missandei, Jorah, Jon, her belief that she was the one true heir -- while the North shits on her, Varys and maybe Tyrion are turning on her after their so-called advice keeps failing, and Cersei being the absolute worst?! It's just not fair.

She is unfit to rule, she's always been unfit to rule.

What does Dany do in Meereen?

She creates a welfare state by freeing all of the slaves, but not creating any jobs. She destroyed the cities primary source of income, and I'm not saying she shouldn't, slave trading is obviously wrong, but she doesn't bother to replace that trade with anything. So that in the end the slaves beg to go back to slavery or to be allowed to murder each other in the fighting pits that she outlawed with her western sensibilities. 

She puts her militia to work as police in the streets. The Unsullied are not suited to such a task, and they understandably get butchered by the Sons of the Harpy and their guerrilla tactics. Again this is something Dany could have fixed, Ser Barristan knows that King's Landing has a City Watch to keep the King's Peace, and he could have begun training those very same pit fighters as agents to do the same, and be more effective then the Unsullied. 

She executes people summarily without trial. How can anyone live "without fear and cruelty under their rightful Queen" when the Queen's first instinct every single time is Fire and Blood?

And then what does she do when she leaves? She renames it "The Bay of Dragons" and then leaves Daario in charge. Daario. I think we all know how well that's gonna go. 

Dany ticks all the tyrant boxes. Inflated sense of self, strong proclivity towards violence, and inability to admit that anything she's doing is wrong. 

[JennyMominFL]

"When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!"

"I will take what is mine with fire and blood."

[ShellsandCheese]

There’s a difference between being unfit to rule and mad. Dany isn’t mad or crazy; never has been. Or wait, she wasn’t until the writers decided to suddenly have characters talking about how mad she is or might be. Nothing she has done has been done out of madness. It’s all been very calculating and very controlled. She used to have a brain and be pretty clever before she started following the advice of Tyrion and Varys. 

From where I’m standing Dany is definitely not the Queen that Westeros needs but she’s also not mad. What is madness, is the mess that is now GoT. And for what it’s worth, I don’t think any of the main or supporting characters are fit to rule - with the exception of maybe Davos. 

[GraceK]

Edited May 7, 2019 by GraceK

[Maximum Taco]

54 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

There’s a difference between being unfit to rule and mad. Dany isn’t mad or crazy; never has been. Or wait, she wasn’t until the writers decided to suddenly have characters talking about how mad she is or might be. Nothing she has done has been done out of madness. It’s all been very calculating and very controlled. She used to have a brain and be pretty clever before she started following the advice of Tyrion and Varys. 

From where I’m standing Dany is definitely not the Queen that Westeros needs but she’s also not mad. What is madness, is the mess that is now GoT. And for what it’s worth, I don’t think any of the main or supporting characters are fit to rule - with the exception of maybe Davos. 

Again, I think she's always been mad. 

Sane people don't react to things the way Dany does. Sane people don't make the choices she does. 

The way she impassively watches Drogo "crown" Viserys. I'm not saying she has to be sad he's dead, he was a dick who abused her, and threatened to cut her child from her womb. But to just watch someone (anyone) die via molten gold and react impassively with a saying that crazy old Aerion Targaryen probably used? That is not a sane reaction. 

The way she sentences people to horrific punishments, Doreah and Xaro to starve to death in the pitch blackness of a vault, 163 random masters disemboweled and garishly displayed in eye-for-an-eye style of justice, another one fed to dragons. These are not the actions of a sane woman. 

Other people are ruthless with their enemies. I mean Jon sentences a child to hang, that's pretty fucking cold. But he doesn't slowly stab Olly to death because Olly stabbed him to death. And moreso he feels guilty for even hanging him. Dany does far more horrific things and never blinks, never thinks twice about them. She's crazy.

The only comparable act that another sympathetic character commits is Sansa feeding Ramsay to his hounds. But it should be noted that Sansa doesn't do this to everyone. She doesn't order Arya to kill Littlefinger slowly and painfully, he gets a nice clean death.  Dany rarely seems to give anyone a painless death. It's all burning them alive, or letting them starve to death and possibly eat other or disembowling them premortem. SHE CRAZY.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[GraceK]

[Andromeda]

On 4/6/2018 at 6:19 PM, anamika said:

On the show, my favorite character is Dany, especially last season.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but as a woman, seeing Dany on Drogon fighting at the head of her army and demolishing the Lannisters in the field of fire 2.0 was wonderful. I still get chills every time I watch that battle and Dany makes her appearance on Drogon. There's just something about this petite, little woman who does things like fall in love and talk romance and sex with her bestie, but can also get on her dragon and do some damage. There's no character like her on TV and it's something for me that the most powerful character on one of the most popular shows in the world is a woman. Especially in a fantasy series. She just exudes power and charm and I love it. When she is extolling the Dothraki to fight for, I was cheering right along with them:

Barbaric and savage? I really don't care! I love it. There's just so much raw energy here. Go Dany!

I know, right? This is a medieval fantasy! People are killing each other in all sorts of horrible ways. But death by Dragon makes her crazy? Why, because no one else has them? Well, tough noogies, Dany does!

I really do feel bad for all the awesome female cosplayers who have taken such pains to enact Dany, their heroine, if somehow her story flips to a ridiculous and unexpected "evil"/"mad" place. It will ruin her entire story arc and all previous seasons of it.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Andromeda

[GraceK]

8 hours ago, Andromeda said:

really do feel bad for all the awesome female cosplayers who have taken such pains to enact Dany, their heroine, if somehow her story flips to a ridiculous and unexpected "evil"/"mad" place. It will ruin her entire story arc and all previous seasons of it.

I’m starting to have a different view. I’ll always love Dany no matter how it turns out, and honestly? This just gives her a tragic and beautiful arc. She literally becomes the messiah that gets torn down  because of the evil of humanity. 

This woman goes into flames and births dragons, liberates slaves, has a zeal for reform, a belief and ruthless desire to change the world and the firepower to do make it happen. She has mythical creatures and superpowers almost. Inspires people and gathers a following of loyal supporters. Is she ruthless? Yes. But she has to be to survive in this world and she needs that hard edge to make the sort of changes to “ break the wheel”. 

she meets Jon snow, another destined figure , and she puts her throne on hold to LITERALLY save the world from ice zombies and an apocalypse. Can you blame her for thinking she has a divine destiny?

Then slowly, people she loves start to die. Barristan.  Viserion. She loses critical allies.  Jorah. She loses the Dothraki. The north regards her with distrust. Finds out the man she loves is her last relative, and her rival, and has the better claim. No matter how she tries to help , or fight fair, loss upon loss keeps piling  up , and she’s constantly being compared to her father. Nothing  she does appeases people. Westeros, the place she always thought would be a home, doesn’t seem to want her there, even though Cersei, the alternative, is a hell demon. Then her other child dies, then Missandei. 

When people all around you are determined to see you as a villain, when everyone betrays you, when you lose everything, when you all do is try to help and do good and be a good person and get shit on...when you want to be a just and fair Ruler and be Queen because you know you can be make change and you are thwarted by your own advisors and if you ever look angry you’re accused of  being crazy? Yeah, I can see finally losing it.

Daenarys is the perfect example of the prince that was promised finally  returning , only to be gaslighted, betrayed, destroyed, all so the wheel can keep on spinning and people can be comfortable with the easily manipulated white male on the throne. Whose super nice though! Westeros isn’t ready for her yet . Her fatal flaw was her good heart.  Her story is the ultimate tragedy and it’s no wonder a lot of people are finding her more compelling this season. 

Also, it makes the Starks and Jon Snow pretty hateful and unlikeable. Talk about reversing course !!!! 😂😂😂

Edited May 7, 2019 by GraceK

[GraceK]

This is heartbreaking. Screenshot from the preview next week. 🥺 She looks so sad here.

[Hana Chan]

I'm going to agree with those that when we look at Dany's total story, her fall is making a lot more sense. She's certainly accomplished some great things and had great ideals. But she's also committed some pretty horrific acts against those that have wronged her or that have stood in her way. At some point, and I'm still working out precisely where I see that line crossed, Dany lost sight over what she wanted her potential reign in Westeros to accomplish beyond just gaining the throne for herself.

There were a lot of hints that this was coming, but the biggest was when Tyrion was trying to discuss the plan for after she takes the throne, including plans for who would succeed her afterwards. This is a normal thing to be concerned about since Dany felt that she was unable to bear children and without an heir or plan, it started to make it clear that she had no real plans beyond becoming queen. Nor did she seem to have any plans on how (or if) to implement the ideas that she claimed as ruler. Her insistence on having potential allies (like Jon) bending the knee made building alliances very difficult. 

She's doing nothing to try to win over those who may be suspicious of her, instead continuing with demands for obedience. Coming to the aid of the North wasn't an act of generosity on her part, but what a responsible ruler would do for those that she claims as her subjects. And now when presented with evidence that one of the beliefs that she's held on to in order to justify her claim to the throne is invalid, she made the choice to give up a relationship with the man she claimed to love in order to protect her claim. Whereas Jon leads by acclaim, Dany can only do so by force at this point. Her ideals of "breaking the wheel" have devolved to "anything, just so long as my ass in on the throne". If Jon is loved, Dany is setting herself up only to be feared.

This may become a classic case of a hero living long enough to become a villain.  

Edited May 7, 2019 by Hana Chan

[Bryce Lynch]

8 hours ago, GraceK said:

I’m starting to have a different view. I’ll always love Dany no matter how it turns out, and honestly? This just gives her a tragic and beautiful arc. She literally becomes the messiah that gets torn down  because of the evil of humanity. 

This woman goes into flames and births dragons, liberates slaves, has a zeal for reform, a belief and ruthless desire to change the world and the firepower to do make it happen. She has mythical creatures and superpowers almost. Inspires people and gathers a following of loyal supporters. Is she ruthless? Yes. But she has to be to survive in this world and she needs that hard edge to make the sort of changes to “ break the wheel”. 

she meets Jon snow, another destined figure , and she puts her throne on hold to LITERALLY save the world from ice zombies and an apocalypse. Can you blame her for thinking she has a divine destiny?

Then slowly, people she loves start to die. Barristan.  Viserion. She loses critical allies.  Jorah. She loses the Dothraki. The north regards her with distrust. Finds out the man she loves is her last relative, and her rival, and has the better claim. No matter how she tries to help , or fight fair, loss upon loss keeps piling  up , and she’s constantly being compared to her father. Nothing  she does appeases people. Westeros, the place she always thought would be a home, doesn’t seem to want her there, even though Cersei, the alternative, is a hell demon. Then her other child dies, then Missandei. 

When people all around you are determined to see you as a villain, when everyone betrays you, when you lose everything, when you all do is try to help and do good and be a good person and get shit on...when you want to be a just and fair Ruler and be Queen because you know you can be make change and you are thwarted by your own advisors and if you ever look angry you’re accused of  being crazy? Yeah, I can see finally losing it.

Daenarys is the perfect example of the prince that was promised finally  returning , only to be gaslighted, betrayed, destroyed, all so the wheel can keep on spinning and people can be comfortable with the easily manipulated white male on the throne. Whose super nice though! Westeros isn’t ready for her yet . Her fatal flaw was her good heart.  Her story is the ultimate tragedy and it’s no wonder a lot of people are finding her more compelling this season. 

Also, it makes the Starks and Jon Snow pretty hateful and unlikeable. Talk about reversing course !!!! 😂😂😂

Well said.  I think that if she goes "Mad Queen" it will be a self fulfilling prophecy, caused by the people who betrayed her, after all she did for them, because they were afraid she would turn into the "Mad Queen".   

I love Jon, but his Ned-like "honor even if it destroys the kingdom" In telling Sansa (Arya would have kept her word) about his true identity, was a betrayal.   Even freaking honorable Ned kept that secret, despite it causing problems in his marriage and damage to his reputation.   

Varys going behind her back is bad enough, but that is Varys being Varys.  Tyrion betraying her after all she did for him and all the trust she put in him is despicable.    He should have immediately told Dany what Sansa told her.  Failing that, he should have reported Varys' plotting to her, so the rest of him could be roasted like his balls were years earlier.  I am hoping he still will.   

[GraceK]

https://www.tvguide.com/amp/news/who-is-game-of-thrones-real-mad-queen-cersei-or-daenerys/?__twitter_impression=true

this is a decent article.

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Well said.  I think that if she goes "Mad Queen" it will be a self fulfilling prophecy, caused by the people who betrayed her, after all she did for them, because they were afraid she would turn into the "Mad Queen".   

Agree completely. My heart is breaking for her. I wanted to punch Tormund in the face in that feast scene when he’s going on about how awesome Jon is for riding dragons 🙄

Edited May 7, 2019 by GraceK

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

https://www.tvguide.com/amp/news/who-is-game-of-thrones-real-mad-queen-cersei-or-daenerys/?__twitter_impression=true

this is a decent article.

Agree completely. My heart is breaking for her. I wanted to punch Tormund in the face in that feast scene when he’s going on about how awesome Jon is for riding dragons 🙄

It is ironic that Tormund's totally innocent praise of his little crow might have ignited bad thoughts in Daenerys' mind more than all the plotting by Sansa and her two closest remaining advisers, behind her back.   

[Couver]

I think a story of Dany losing the throne could have been told well. I just don't think the show left itself enough time to do it. And the writing so far this season is just so poor. The optics on how female characters have been written the last two seasons is also appalling.

Also as a fan I've always struggled with how much fans hold this character to revenge kills or war time kills while completely accepting the kills the Starks commit.

I'm still trying to think of any innocents Dany actually killed. Other than the little girl killed by the dragons when they were hunting.

I have no sympathy for slavers and nobles who were fine with exploiting and killing people and when given the chance to stop said no. Same with the Tarly's who were traitors and again given a chance to surrender. But to hear detractors talk Dany burned wholly innocent people daily.

This show is full of revenge killing and retaliation. But it's only wrong with Dany does it. I am generalizing of course. But that's how it seems to me. Though I suppose fans of characters are always more sensitive to the criticisms of their faves.

[GraceK]

9 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It is ironic that Tormund's totally innocent praise of his little crow might have ignited bad thoughts in Daenerys' mind more than all the plotting by Sansa and her two closest remaining advisers, behind her back.   

I just loved that scene though. Her face as she watching all the people around her, and her slow realization that she doesn’t belong there, that these people don’t want her there, that they prefer Jon, and that nothing she does will ever make a difference. It’s so heartbreaking because you can see how isolated she truly is and you know she’s not wrong. Her paranoia is justified because her advisors are doubting her, and at first chance Sansa plots to unseat her . It makes what happens later so much more gut wrenching.

[Couver]

7 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I just loved that scene though. Her face as she watching all the people around her, and her slow realization that she doesn’t belong there, that these people don’t want her there, that they prefer Jon, and that nothing she does will ever make a difference. It’s so heartbreaking because you can see how isolated she truly is and you know she’s not wrong. Her paranoia is justified because her advisors are doubting her, and at first chance Sansa plots to unseat her . It makes what happens later so much more gut wrenching.

This would actually be a decent ending for her. A realization that she didn't need the IT. That what she had accomplished overseas was actually better. She's never successfully integrated into Westeros. And suffered so many heavy losses here.

It's also interesting that it seems her advising council is turning on her now. They forget that Dany didn't set out for the throne on her own. Several key figures groomed her for it as well.

[Spartan Girl]

Brilliant analysis, @GraceK!  But I still don't like how this is going.

A lot of people were calling out crappy writing of how Dany seemingly doesn't even consider the solution of marrying Jon so that they can rule together, since she's no stranger to making political marriages.  But the more I think about it, the more I think that probably isn't the simply solution Tyrion thinks it is.  She probably WAS considering marrying him before she found out who he really was-- not to mention the complications of the North's hostility and Sansa's dislike of her.  

But while Dany might not be thinking that clearly at the moment -- getting rid of Cersei trumps all other plans -- maybe she knows that marriage wouldn't be the solution, for most of the reasons Varys listed:

1) The North isn't big on incest.  And now that eight people know the big secret, there's no way nobody else will eventually know

2) Even if they would accept it, they'd never accept Dany.  They'd want JON to rule. 

3) Jon has said he doesn't want to rule, and he'd let Dany do most of the work, which again wouldn't sit well with Jon's supporters.  They wouldn't want another cat's paw like Tommen ruling Westeros -- and the North was already quick to write Jon off as Dany's bitch just for bending the knee.

And finally, there's a difference between a political marriage turned love match and marrying your nephew just to filch his birthright.  Say what you want about Dany, but she loves Jon, and no matter how much she wants the throne, she wouldn't be able to live with herself just for using him like that.  She wants to get power on her own terms.

[Maximum Taco]

54 minutes ago, Couver said:

I'm still trying to think of any innocents Dany actually killed. Other than the little girl killed by the dragons when they were hunting.

I have no sympathy for slavers and nobles who were fine with exploiting and killing people and when given the chance to stop said no. Same with the Tarly's who were traitors and again given a chance to surrender. But to hear detractors talk Dany burned wholly innocent people daily.

This show is full of revenge killing and retaliation. But it's only wrong with Dany does it. I am generalizing of course. But that's how it seems to me. Though I suppose fans of characters are always more sensitive to the criticisms of their faves.

This depends on what you mean by innocents. I don't think Dany has ever killed someone who was truly innocent. However I have issues with almost every death she is a part of, where she isn't being actively threatened.  

IMO the one's in bold are wrong, cruel and at least border on something an evil or mad person would do. 

Viserys - Yeah, this guy deserved to die, he was a jerk, who threatened to cut her unborn child out of her womb, and that's ignoring the years of abuse he heaped on her. And his death was freaking epic, I loved watching it (but that just means it was good TV, I loved watching the Mountain crush Oberyn too.) But molten gold has got to be the very definition of cruel and unusual. She gets a pass on this one from me, cause she wasn't actually the one who did it, and he had just threatened to do vile things to her. But it's still concerning that she let Drogo do it without any word and acted very impassively towards it. 

Mirri Maz Duur - Again, this death is deserved, although I would argue that Mirri also deserved to get her vengeance against Drogo and the Khalasar and Dany is a part of that Khalasar as Khaleesi. But, she eschews a clean death for burning someone alive. 

Pyat Pree - Full pass. Was actively being threatened and chained, and dragons were the weapon at hand. 

Doreah and Xaro - Again, deserved deaths, but letting someone slowly suffocate or starve to death in a windowless vault is maybe the cruelest death in the entire series beyond Cersei making Ellaria watch Tyene die. 

Kraznys and Greizhan (Astapor masters) - Full pass. It's a shady deal to trade your Dragon knowing a dragon cannot be traded, but it's not overly cruel. 

Meereen Masters - This was a cruel death. Yes, it's eye-for-an-eye justice, but that doesn't make it right. Also it doesn't seem like she does her due diligence here. She kills 163 masters for the 163 crucified children, but she doesn't bother to find the ringleaders of the plot. If Hizdar can be believed, his father spoke against the massacre, but he was still in turn massacred by Dany. This was morally grey at least, and black at worst. 

Zalla - The one death that is an innocent, and the only one Dany expresses any regret over. She gets a pass here though, she didn't order this death so it wasn't cruel. At worst it's negligent to let her dragons roam free, but not evil.

Mossador - Full Pass. She gave him a trial, he was definitely guilty, and she gave him a clean death. Nice job Dany!

Master - Selected AT RANDOM to be devoured by Viserion and Rhaegal. Dany even says "Maybe you are guilty and maybe not" and still goes through with this. This is evil. Sorry you cannot convince me differently. 

Bunch of Khals - Pass. Life and death scenario, fire was her only real weapon here. 

Sons of the Harpy - Pass. This was a battle. 

Randyll and Dickon Tarly - Again I don't have an issue with their deaths. She gave them a choice and needed to ensure loyalty. She could've easily set them in a cell for a while, but that's her prerogative. But death by burning is IMO unnecessarily cruel. This did seem to go quickly, so maybe dragon fire kills faster then regular fire, but I still think it must have been much more painful then a quick beheading or knife to the heart. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Hana Chan]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

https://www.tvguide.com/amp/news/who-is-game-of-thrones-real-mad-queen-cersei-or-daenerys/?__twitter_impression=true

this is a decent article.

Agree completely. My heart is breaking for her. I wanted to punch Tormund in the face in that feast scene when he’s going on about how awesome Jon is for riding dragons 🙄

For Tormund, who knows Jon so well, to see him riding a dragon would be miraculous. He knows that it's not a common thing and he expects it from Dany (since she's the Dragon Queen), but to see his "southern" friend do the same would elevate Jon to Dany's level. It's simply the unexpected being given a lot more attention than the expected.

The article (and others that I've seen in the past few days) are all zooming in on the same point. Dany has wrapped up her entire identity in the "rightful" Queen (along with Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, etc) to the point that Daenerys has gotten lost in the shuffle. Lose any of these and who is she? How can she be Mother of Dragons if all her dragons are killed. And the whole reason that she wanted to become Queen, to make the world a better place and "breaking the wheel" has also gotten lost. Whereas Jon saw being KITN simply as a means to get what he needed (help for the North), Dany now sees it as an end. Which is why it now seems to be slipping through her fingers and she's so poorly equipped to handle it.

[MadameKillerB]

just a quick note on Emilia's acting: I love that little stumble after she walks away when Missandei is brutally murdered. I loved it better than the scrunchy pissed off teenager face she made with the swelling music warning us she was "going mad." God, even the acting direction is lazy now. 

[QuinnM]

Quote

just a quick note on Emilia's acting: I love that little stumble after she walks away when Missandei is brutally murdered. 

That goes along with the stumble that Kit does as he declares he's not drunk.  Been there.

[Couver]

Maximum Taco thank you for articulating your counterpoints so well! I know it can't be easy being in enemy territory lol.

I had forgotten what she said to the Master and if he was actually truly guilty or not. So that is a problematic death.

[GraceK]

Just now, Couver said:

Maximum Taco thank you for articulating your counterpoints so well! I know it can't be easy being in enemy territory lol.

I had forgotten what she said to the Master and if he was actually truly guilty or not. So that is a problematic death.

That never happened in the books though. That was a show invention, which is irritating. They upped her ruthlessness for show purposes, which really feeds into this bias against her. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

This depends on what you mean by innocents. I don't think Dany has ever killed someone who was truly innocent. However I have issues with almost every death she is a part of, where she isn't being actively threatened.  

IMO the one's in bold are wrong, cruel and at least border on something an evil or mad person would do. 

Viserys - Yeah, this guy deserved to die, he was a jerk, who threatened to cut her unborn child out of her womb, and that's ignoring the years of abuse he heaped on her. And his death was freaking epic, I loved watching it (but that just means it was good TV, I loved watching the Mountain crush Oberyn too.) But molten gold has got to be the very definition of cruel and unusual. She gets a pass on this one from me, cause she wasn't actually the one who did it, and he had just threatened to do vile things to her. But it's still concerning that she let Drogo do it without any word and acted very impassively towards it. 

Mirri Maz Duur - Again, this death is deserved, although I would argue that Mirri also deserved to get her vengeance against Drogo and the Khalasar and Dany is a part of that Khalasar as Khaleesi. But, she eschews a clean death for burning someone alive. 

Pyat Pree - Full pass. Was actively being threatened and chained, and dragons were the weapon at hand. 

Doreah and Xaro - Again, deserved deaths, but letting someone slowly suffocate or starve to death in a windowless vault is maybe the cruelest death in the entire series beyond Cersei making Ellaria watch Tyene die. 

Kraznys and Greizhan (Astapor masters) - Full pass. It's a shady deal to trade your Dragon knowing a dragon cannot be traded, but it's not overly cruel. 

Meereen Masters - This was a cruel death. Yes, it's eye-for-an-eye justice, but that doesn't make it right. Also it doesn't seem like she does her due diligence here. She kills 163 masters for the 163 crucified children, but she doesn't bother to find the ringleaders of the plot. If Hizdar can be believed, his father spoke against the massacre, but he was still in turn massacred by Dany. This was morally grey at least, and black at worst. 

Zalla - The one death that is an innocent, and the only one Dany expresses any regret over. She gets a pass here though, she didn't order this death so it wasn't cruel. At worst it's negligent to let her dragons roam free, but not evil.

Mossador - Full Pass. She gave him a trial, he was definitely guilty, and she gave him a clean death. Nice job Dany!

Master - Selected AT RANDOM to be devoured by Viserion and Rhaegal. Dany even says "Maybe you are guilty and maybe not" and still goes through with this. This is evil. Sorry you cannot convince me differently. 

Bunch of Khals - Pass. Life and death scenario, fire was her only real weapon here. 

Sons of the Harpy - Pass. This was a battle. 

Randyll and Dickon Tarly - Again I don't have an issue with their deaths. She gave them a choice and needed to ensure loyalty. She could've easily set them in a cell for a while, but that's her prerogative. But death by burning is IMO unnecessarily cruel. This did seem to go quickly, so maybe dragon fire kills faster then regular fire, but I still think it must have been much more painful then a quick beheading or knife to the heart. 

You, sweet summer child. :)

By the standards of Essos and Westeros I'm not sure any of the deaths were cruel and unusual, though I guess maybe we want Dany to be better than those standards.

I'm fine with Doreah and Xaro.  They betrayed her, slaughtered the blood of her blood and stole her babies.   The deserved to suffer a while to contemplate their crimes.

Mirri Maz Duur - She murdered Dany's husband and her son after Dany showed her kidness.  Plus she needed her for the blood magic to birth those dragons.  I have no issues.

Meereen Masters - I loved this one.  One could argue anything less would be inadequate justice.  These monsters tortured and slowly murdered 163 innocent children to send a message.  Dany got justice for the children and sent the message that such cruelty to innocents will bring a horrible death.  Maybe some of them really opposed it.   But, writing a letter to the editor of the Meereen Morning News, or whatever they did was not enough.  They should have stopped the torture of the children or died trying.

The random master I will give you, though he was probably guilty and she was sending a message that their terrorism would not be tolerate.  Not her finest moment though. 

I had mixed feelings about Randyll and Rickon Dickon (Ha!)  When Randyll rebuffed Tyrion's suggestion that he be made to take the black, he lost me.  Dickon was a fool for roasting with his cruel father.  I didn't have a big problem with the method of execution.  It was pretty quick and sent a message that probably saved the lives of other would be resisters.  Plus, at least they didn't shit themselves. :)

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

I wanted to punch Tormund in the face in that feast scene when he’s going on about how awesome Jon is for riding dragons 🙄

Tormund was drunk off his ass to be sure, but - yeah.  Especially Tormund’s drunkenly spewed line:

What kind of person climbs on a fucking dragon??? A madman or a king!!!

... leaving “queen” conspicuous by its omission.

57 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I just loved that scene though. Her face as she watching all the people around her, and her slow realization that she doesn’t belong there, that these people don’t want her there, that they prefer Jon, and that nothing she does will ever make a difference. It’s so heartbreaking because you can see how isolated she truly is and you know she’s not wrong. Her paranoia is justified because her advisors are doubting her, and at first chance Sansa plots to unseat her . It makes what happens later so much more gut wrenching.

IMHO Dany’s reaction is not simply one of loneliness or isolation - its her coming to the realization that everything she’s been told all her life is wrong.  Other than her birth, Dany has never spent any time in Westeros; she grew up in Essos, sheltered from assassins and raised on constant repetitions of the stories told her any her brother and others - Westeros was chafing under the rule of a usurper king, its citizens were simply waiting for an authentic Targaryen ruler to return - and might likely revolt in support once they knew a Targaryen was en route to KL, the Targaryens would be welcomed as the rightful rulers by their grateful subjects with open arms and flowers in the street lining their footsteps to the Throne, etc., etc.

But guess what?  None of what Dany has heard all her life was true.

(Including the most important thing - that she and her brother were the last Targaryens with a legitimate claim to the IT - but that comes later.  And even with that revelation, I don’t really fault Dany for not automatically ceding to Jon the right to rule; her entire perspective of life and her place in it just collapsed on its foundation of sand, and it may take Dany a hot minute or two to adjust to the New Reality - just like it’ll take Jon some time to adjust to the notion his lifelong “brother” and “sisters” are really his cousins, and he’s been making Auntie Dany come on a regular basis.  ;>