S04.E07: XXXV

[Enero]

Quote

Flint urges caution to an enraged Silver. Max leads Rackham and Bonny upriver. Billy finds a survivor. Rogers learns the truth.

[Enero]

A thread hadn't been created for the latest episode so I created one.

First thing's first Madi is alive!! YAY! And they have not reduced her role to just being Silver's lover who needs to be rescued. The political shenanigans continue with her being held captive. I see the show pulled a bit from history with the deal Rogers offered her.

Alliances shifted in this episode quicker than you could blink an eye. I guess it's always been that way though with these pirates that's why their way of life is not sustainable long term (as many pointed out in the previous episode thread). Sadly, I think we've seen the last of Anne and Jack together, and unfortunately for Jack I think he's sailing to his death. 

Loved the scene between Silver and the Queen. He admitted he loved Madi. Sigh. And he "believed" she loved him. Hope they'll reunite soon and she'll get to tell him that she does indeed love him.  Speaking of the Queen, I understand her need to push forward because they've never been "this close" to obtaining freedom, but as Julius said, Flint's plan is INSANE. He is leading them all into a storm that will end in catastrophe for all involved, but more so for the Maroons because they will end up enslaved again or worse.  The Queen and Silver are blinded by grief and making Madi's "death" count for something. So they can't see the disaster that will ensue with them trying to take down Boston. 

Madi's "death" has ignited the turn in Silver, he is now Long John Silver and as a result, the partnership with he and Flint is about suffer a major blow that I doubt it will ever recover from.  Billy definitely knows his former peeps well and having Madi gave him just the ammunition he needed to destroy them. 

Did not care about Rogers' grief over Eleanor's death, at all. 

This was a great episode, not as great as the previous ones. IMO, it was almost filler, pretty much setting up the ground work for the final three episodes as well as further aligning the show with where these characters are, at the start of TI.

[Triskan]

Of course Madi's alive ! So are we to assume Billy is the one who dragged her off the burning house ? (or maybe I missed when they confirmed it). Also quite curious to see that whole dynamic between Woodes and Billy evolve ! Could make for some interesting stuff ! 

Yeah, Jack's definitly sailing to his death... that truly felt like Jack and Anne's final scene together, and the more the show goes on, the more I believe Anne will leave the story alive, maybe with Max. They may end up the pioneers of the new Nassau if they manage to work with grandma Guthrie without screwing it up. By the way, amazing grandma ! The actress was truly great, she has that commandment, that sharpeness in her voice, her attitude and I loved her whole exchange with Max ! 

And now everyone will be after Flint, hehe... I really wonder when (if) Thomas Hamilton will be brought back into the game. If he's truly alive in exile, he may be (as many have pointed before) the end of Flint, or what finally breaks his desire for this war and make him sail into the sunset... and if it happens relatively quickly (not in the last episode at least), it could once again change the power landscape for Nassau, maybe one last time in a glorious serie of delightful betrayals, shifting allegiances and conflicts of interests... but yeah, I feel that if Thomas ever shows up again, it will be at the very end, so we may not get to see a Nassau without Flint fighting for her, having abandoned her...

Again, a tremendous episode. No major death, no big action setpiece, but the show doesnt need that to be wonderful ! 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Triskan

[Kathemy]

Well, this was a quiet hour of television. Not as exciting as previous installments but making a bit more sense all in all.

[nodorothyparker]

Finally caught up after weeks of falling behind.  So they very neatly solved the problem of getting the treasure out of the ground on Maroon Island and setting the pieces in place for it to become THE treasure of Treasure Island.  Given how that story goes, I kind of love that it was Billy who set all that in motion as a giant FU to both Sliver and Flint by giftwrapping it all for Woodes, who continues to not be half as clever as he wants people to think he is.  I know the show wants me to care about his grief for Eleanor after having inadvertently caused her death but having never bought their supposed great love, I just don't.   He spent half of last season threatening to hang her and she kicked off so much of this pirate rebellion that's mostly left Nassau a smoking ruin by doing an end run around him to get her revenge by hanging Vane.  I can't really look at him hanging out with her dead body without thinking that yeah, that's about right.

Despite my earlier misgivings about this particular plot, loved loved loved Jack and Max's sojourn to Philadelphia.  Loved Jack imitating Max when he was originally listing why she couldn't come.  Loved Jack's fussy new coat by the end after complaining about freezing all episode.  The look on Jack's face when he first heard his name being included with the likes of Blackbeard's and Vane's after forever of being considered comparatively small potatoes to them only to realize that they were all just monsters in the newspapers for public entertainment was priceless for a character whose own role in the carnage has been driven largely by his obsession with his own legacy.   No, Jack doesn't feel like he'll be returning from this.  Max's conversation with Grandma Guthrie was just everything with both women recognizing something in each other and holding their own.  I've been ambivalent about Max at times, wanting to like her more than I actually do, but she really sold me here. 

I'm a little unclear how I feel about Israel Hands continually whispering in Silver's ear about Flint considering Silver has pretty consistently throughout already had Flint's number all on his own.   That was evident in his immediate reaction to the lunacy of Flint talking about eventually attacking Boston.   Hands feels like he exists only to avoid having scenes of Silver talking to himself as he works all this out.  Regardless, with only three episodes left all the seeds are sown now for the inevitable split between Silver and Flint as Long John Silver permanently emerges.

[FlowerofCarnage]

Born, raised and still reside in Philadelphia and I have to say they did a good job of recreating colonial Philadelphia. Now I feel like taking a stroll through downtown but it is ball-numbing cold outside. Lol

Jack's line about The Society of Friends aka Quakers demanding two shilling and how he has no friends. Hilarious! Now, I have to look up if Quakers really demanded contributions like that. Lol

I agree that he is sailing to his death.

Flint/Silver bromance coming to an end is inevitable. Silver's been looking for an out since that talk with Billy and IMO, had Madi made it back with them to Maroon Island, Flint's Boston plan would have been the last straw for Silver. 

 

The deal Rodgers (who can't go to debtors prison fast enough) offered to Madi is going to come back into play at some point. 

[tennisgurl]

Grandma Guthrie is the kind of women that Eleanor always seemed like she wanted to be, but never quite could. She had a cool confidence that Eleanor seemed to lack. Or maybe Eleanor was just never any good at playing the game. Grandma Guthrie seemed to be happy to work behind the scenes, while Eleanor seemed like she alternately wanted to be taken seriously as a leader and as a woman without a man, but also constantly hitching her wagon to a man. Its probably why she always had less success than Anne or Max, who were both committed to either being fully independent, or working the system.

Another great episode, even if it was less exciting then the last few. It seemed like they are setting up everything that will lead to the end of the series, getting everyone into the places they will be in the end. Flint is probably not going to survive (WAY too many people gunning for him right now), Rackham is heading for his death, Anne and Max will sail off into parts unknown, Billy will exit stage left, angry with himself over his bad choices, Rodgers will end up in deters prison (HAH!), and Maddi and Silver will run off and set up for Treasure Island. That's what I'm guessing anyway, but who knows with this show.

I loved Rackhams impression of Max, and his complaining about the Quakers, and the weather. The guys been living on islands for years, he wouldn't be used to cold east coast winters. Now I wish we had more of the pirates trying to deal with society more. Hilarity/tragedy could ensue.

Maddi continues to be awesome. She might be in trouble, but she's no damsel in distress. Awwww Silver loves her! Of course she loves you too! I'm pretty sure they're going to make it out together, but, again, who knows with this show.

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Grandma Guthrie is the kind of women that Eleanor always seemed like she wanted to be, but never quite could. She had a cool confidence that Eleanor seemed to lack. Or maybe Eleanor was just never any good at playing the game. Grandma Guthrie seemed to be happy to work behind the scenes, while Eleanor seemed like she alternately wanted to be taken seriously as a leader and as a woman without a man, but also constantly hitching her wagon to a man. Its probably why she always had less success than Anne or Max, who were both committed to either being fully independent, or working the system.

I completely agree with this.  Though Eleanor wanted to be seen as a leader who didn't need a man, she was constantly running to men when things got too rocky for her to deal with.  That was a great scene and Jack was correct because he knew Grandma would see Max as a woman who got shit done and the men were none the wiser.  Max didn't even flinch when Grandma was like, "I understand why YOU wouldn't want to have slaves do the work."  Max gave her an emotional answer (that she was a slave) and a business answer (I'm safer if I pay people a good wage, that way they don't want to slit my throat).

But what about Mrs. Hudson?  Damn, so she's the cause of everything.  She lied to Rogers, the Spanish didn't want Rackham at all.  The only reason Rogers wanted to transport Rackham to Havana was because he thought that by delivering him to the Spanish, his debt would be paid.  That was the reason for that badass rescue, the capture of Vane, the execution of Vane (all Eleanor you could argue, but had Vane not been there, he wouldn't have been executed) and the shitstorm that came afterwards.  I wonder if Rogers will send her to prison.

Now there are three episodes left and I'll see if the show runners stick to TI, or if they go off the rails.  

Edited March 12, 2017 by Neurochick

[Enero]

30 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

But what about Mrs. Hudson?  Damn, so she's the cause of everything.  She lied to Rogers, the Spanish didn't want Rackham at all.  The only reason Rogers wanted to transport Rackham to Havana was because he thought that by delivering him to the Spanish, his debt would be paid.  That was the reason for that badass rescue, the capture of Vane, the execution of Vane (all Eleanor you could argue, but had Vane not been there, he wouldn't have been executed) and the shitstorm that came afterwards.  I wonder if Rogers will send her to prison.

I wonder this too. But will he get the chance? He's still in debt up to his eye balls, he consorted with the enemy - Spain and Nassau is in shambles. How much power does he have outside of Nassau? I'd think none considering the mess he finds himself in. At this point, I'm doubtful he has enough power to send anyone to jail unless he imprisons them on Nassau.  

Edited March 12, 2017 by Enero

[Ravenya003]

Gee, I wonder if Jack and Silver are going to face the same level of fandom backlash as Eleanor and Max did for betraying Flint/Jack. Haha, of course they won't. 

I breathed a huge sigh of relief when Madi was revealed to be alive (though seriously, will we ever learn how she escaped that house and ended up captured?) I've been tense all week, even though I was 99% sure they wouldn't really go through with it. Still, this was a masterstroke by Billy and Rogers: she's the only thing that could possibly come between the Flint/Silver alliance. Well, that and Israel Hands dripping poison in Silver's ear. 

10 hours ago, Triskan said:

By the way, amazing grandma ! The actress was truly great, she has that commandment, that sharpeness in her voice, her attitude and I loved her whole exchange with Max ! 

That was Harriet Walter - not as famous as the likes of Judi Dench or Helen Mirren, but definitely considered one of the great actresses of her day. The moment I recognized her I knew she'd be important, and she didn't disappoint! You could write an essay on the women in this show and how they use soft power to govern the world - I also noticed that between the white makeup and the embroidery, they were definitely trying to create a visual parallel between her and Eleanor. 

I'm glad that Featherstone stood up for Max: not only pointing out that she spared him after his/Idelle's betrayal, but telling Jack that she doesn't cross anyone who doesn't cross her first (if it weren't for Jack's insane obsession with his legacy, he and Anne would be on a Bahamas cruise by now).

Speaking of which, that conversation between Jack and the young woman was interesting: he's got the notoriety he's always dreamed of, but at the same time realized he and his brethren will be remembered as bloodthirsty savages, best used to scare children and thrill women. 

4 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Hands feels like he exists only to avoid having scenes of Silver talking to himself as he works all this out.

Were it not for his role in Treasure Island and the fact he killed Berringer in front of everyone, I'd be tempted to believe Hands was Silver's ID, subconsciously warning him to follow his instincts. 

Just to confirm, are we meant to assume that Silver has secretly had the treasure dug up and has it on board in case Flint's plan doesn't work? Because there's still some final steps that need to be taken before we're lined up with Treasure Island...

Spoiler

I'm  glad the treasure has been unearthed since it's a pretty important plot-point in Treasure Island that Silver doesn't know where it is. So at some point it's got to be reclaimed by Flint and buried on Treasure Island without any of the crew knowing about it. At the same time I'm considering the possibility that Silver will help Flint fake his death so that he might go and be reunited with Thomas (assuming he's still alive somewhere) and spreading the story about him dying of rum. Yet these two plots seem diametrically opposed to each other, so if they manage them BOTH I'll be very impressed.

 

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Grandma Guthrie seemed to be happy to work behind the scenes, while Eleanor seemed like she alternately wanted to be taken seriously as a leader and as a woman without a man, but also constantly hitching her wagon to a man. Its probably why she always had less success than Anne or Max, who were both committed to either being fully independent, or working the system.

In defence of Eleanor, ALL the women of this show have (by necessity) hitched their wagon to a man. It's not an affront to girl-power, it's just the way the world worked back then. Max could only get as far as the madam of a brothel by herself; after that she had to ally with Silver and then Jack to become the "queen of Nassau". Grandma Guthrie can't run her own business, she has to do it hiding behind her husband. I don't think Anne is comparable to Eleanor considering one is a pirate and the other was a businesswoman, but even Anne has expressed on occasion her frustration that she and Jack are linked in everyone's minds: "like we're the same person." The Maroon Queen and Madi are really the only women who command hard power, and even then they're surrounded by male bodyguards. 

Where Eleanor went wrong was in her attitude: she was haughty and high-handed. Men resent being told what to do by a woman - her last fatal mistake was in believing Rogers would listen to her (and Mrs Hudson) instead of seeking out a new, violent, even more destructive method to get what he wanted. So basically: I don't criticise Eleanor for seeking out male allies/partners (EVERYONE on the show does this, including other men), but in not doing it with more subtlety. As Jack described Max this episode, women in these times needed to exert power over men without them knowing it. Unfair, but the difference between life and death.

[GodsBeloved]

5 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

Just to confirm, are we meant to assume that Silver has secretly had the treasure dug up and has it on board in case Flint's plan doesn't work?

Yes the treasure is on board. Kofi is below guarding it.

[Neurochick]

I think Flint knows the treasure is on board, or if he doesn't, he will know.  

1 hour ago, Ravenya003 said:

Where Eleanor went wrong was in her attitude: she was haughty and high-handed. Men resent being told what to do by a woman - her last fatal mistake was in believing Rogers would listen to her (and Mrs Hudson) instead of seeking out a new, violent, even more destructive method to get what he wanted. So basically: I don't criticise Eleanor for seeking out male allies/partners (EVERYONE on the show does this, including other men), but in not doing it with more subtlety. As Jack described Max this episode, women in these times needed to exert power over men without them knowing it. Unfair, but the difference between life and death.

Good point.  Nothing wrong with seeking out male partners, but the idea is to gently tell them what you think they should do and make them believe it's their idea all along.  That Eleanor couldn't do.  

[tessathereaper]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Grandma Guthrie is the kind of women that Eleanor always seemed like she wanted to be, but never quite could. She had a cool confidence that Eleanor seemed to lack. Or maybe Eleanor was just never any good at playing the game. Grandma Guthrie seemed to be happy to work behind the scenes, while Eleanor seemed like she alternately wanted to be taken seriously as a leader and as a woman without a man, but also constantly hitching her wagon to a man. Its probably why she always had less success than Anne or Max, who were both committed to either being fully independent, or working the system.

Another great episode, even if it was less exciting then the last few. It seemed like they are setting up everything that will lead to the end of the series, getting everyone into the places they will be in the end. Flint is probably not going to survive (WAY too many people gunning for him right now), Rackham is heading for his death, Anne and Max will sail off into parts unknown, Billy will exit stage left, angry with himself over his bad choices, Rodgers will end up in deters prison (HAH!), and Maddi and Silver will run off and set up for Treasure Island. That's what I'm guessing anyway, but who knows with this show.

I loved Rackhams impression of Max, and his complaining about the Quakers, and the weather. The guys been living on islands for years, he wouldn't be used to cold east coast winters. Now I wish we had more of the pirates trying to deal with society more. Hilarity/tragedy could ensue.

Maddi continues to be awesome. She might be in trouble, but she's no damsel in distress. Awwww Silver loves her! Of course she loves you too! I'm pretty sure they're going to make it out together, but, again, who knows with this show.

Well to be fair, Eleanor was a lot younger than Grandma Guthrie is now, Grandma Guthrie may not have started out the way she's ended up.

[Kathemy]

I'm a bit sad that Jack is obviously toast, unless the showrunners really go off the rails. I always liked his relationship with Anne, far more than I liked Max and Anne which comes across as various degrees of toxic.

Jack and Anne, at the core, are the best of friends. I can't remember seeing one of them try to manipulate the other in any meaningful fashion.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Kathemy
Spelling error

[WatchrTina]

Just checking to say "Whoo Hoooo!  Madi's not dead!"  I said it before -- no body = no death.  But I'm really going to be bummed if we learn Billy saved her from the fire and then turned her over the British.  On the other hand, if he didn't do that -- how would he have known she was a prisoner and available to be used as a pawn?  He wasn't in the prison himself -- they said he walked into town and surrendered.  I suppose he could have been watching from the woods when Madi was captured.

Billy, Billy, Billy.  You used to be so loyal.

As for Jack -- yeah that man has "dead man walking" written all over him.

I'm loving Eleanor's grandmother.  Another strong woman who puts the grrrrr in girl-power.

Edited March 13, 2017 by WatchrTina

[yellowfred]

I thought this was a really good episode.  I really enjoyed all the Philadelphia stuff.  Eleanor's grandmother (did we learn her name?) was great, and her scene with Jack and Max was the highlight of the episode, for me.  I agree that Jack's attempt to kill Flint will almost certainly not end well.  I actually don't think he's gonna die, though, mostly because that would probably leave Max, Anne, and Idelle just hanging out in Philadelphia for the rest of the season.

I could have done without the scene of Rogers mourning Eleanor, partly because I'm not all that invested in Rogers, as a character, but also because I really dislike lingering shots of dead bodies.

I was a little confused about the Mrs. Hudson reveal.  Like, I thought we actually saw her talking with her spy contact when he told her that they wanted Jack handed over with the cache.  I might be misremembering the specifics, but I think she was saying that the cache was going to be delivered and he said something about that not being enough.  She might have exaggerated the urgency to Rogers, but she didn't just make it up.

[Enero]

8 minutes ago, yellowfred said:

I was a little confused about the Mrs. Hudson reveal.  Like, I thought we actually saw her talking with her spy contact when he told her that they wanted Jack handed over with the cache.  I might be misremembering the specifics, but I think she was saying that the cache was going to be delivered and he said something about that not being enough.  She might have exaggerated the urgency to Rogers, but she didn't just make it up.

I was confused about this as well. I went back and watch the scene of this exchange and apparently the Spanish did only want the cache. However it was the spy who suggested Jack be included with the trade as a sign of good faith which would go a long way in placating the Spanish generals, and therefore would better guarantee the safety of Nassau and her family from harm. 

So she knew the request was a lie, but I don't know I'd blame her entirely for it since it was strongly suggested by the spy who was directing her on what to do. 

[BroncoLayne]

Madi was never going to die.  

Spoiler

When you read Treasure Island, of which Black Sails is the prequel of course, you will find the LJS owns a public house in Bristol and he agrees to become cook on the Hispaniola, a ship bought to go and search for the treasure.  The Squire who is leading the expedition then writes to his friend saying that LJS " this  old sea dog will leave his wife to manage the inn............and she is a woman of color"

Edited March 13, 2017 by kariyaki
Book spoilers need to be tagged

[kay1864]

Why does Grandma Guthrie want Flint dead?

Watch the "behind the scenes" if you haven't already.  "Philadelphia" was in Capetown, and created for this episode (I figured they just used a generic Colonial standing set).  It was 100 degrees and they actors had to wear heavy coats and pretend they were freezing!  (I guess that explains why Jack complained about the cold, yet his coat was unbuttoned :P)

Edited March 13, 2017 by kay1864

[Kathemy]

3 hours ago, BroncoLayne said:

Madi was never going to die.  

Spoiler

When you read Treasure Island, of which Black Sails is the prequel of course, you will find the LJS owns a public house in Bristol and he agrees to become cook on the Hispaniola, a ship bought to go and search for the treasure.  The Squire who is leading the expedition then writes to his friend saying that LJS " this  old sea dog will leave his wife to manage the inn............and she is a woman of color"

 

Ah, yes...

Spoiler

The full quote is:

"He leaves his wife to manage the inn; and as she is a woman of colour, a pair of old bachelors like you and I may be excused for guessing that it is the wife, quite as much as the health, that sends him back to roving."

Hardly compatible with modern sensibilities, heh.

Edited March 13, 2017 by kariyaki
Book spoilers need to be tagged

[Bort]

People, we're having a bit of a rash of posts with untagged book spoilers in these episode threads. Please put tags on spoilers.

[Kathemy]

Sorry for forgetting o_o

[attica]

I had not been expecting the great Harriet Walter to show up, so Grammy Guthrie was a thrill and a delight to me.  My question is: who's the tomcat in her and Max's metaphor? Flint? Silver? Rodgers? Whose removal would be crucial to break the cycle they decried? IDON'TKNOW!!!ILOVETHISSHOWSOMUCH!!!11!

And not for nothing, the Philadelphia men could spend their days looking at maps and drinking, but GG had to run the company AND get the damn sewing done.

I thought the bit where Corpse Eleanor cried a single tear was creepy and cool looking. I gave Hannah New a lot of shit in the first season for being bad at acting, but she got better, and credit where credit is due.

I want one more scene of Anne swinging down from the mizzenmast with a knife between her teeth. Is that so much to ask?

[DarkRaichu]

6 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Why does Grandma Guthrie want Flint dead?

Watch the "behind the scenes" if you haven't already.  "Philadelphia" was in Capetown, and created for this episode (I figured they just used a generic Colonial standing set).  It was 100 degrees and they actors had to wear heavy coats and pretend they were freezing!  (I guess that explains why Jack complained about the cold, yet his coat was unbuttoned :P)

I assumed he was the tomcat that fought back in her story?

Wow did not know that part.  Good acting by the actors.  Their cold breath must have been CGI-d, which I did not notice as fake

[Ravenya003]

9 hours ago, attica said:

I had not been expecting the great Harriet Walter to show up, so Grammy Guthrie was a thrill and a delight to me.  My question is: who's the tomcat in her and Max's metaphor? Flint? Silver? Rodgers? Whose removal would be crucial to break the cycle they decried? IDON'TKNOW!!!ILOVETHISSHOWSOMUCH!!!11!

I'm pretty sure that Flint is the tomcat. Like the cat, he's the instigator of events, forever causing a disturbance. Max then says someone has to have the courage to go and "drown the damn cat" and Jack is subsequently told to go kill Flint. To extend the metaphor, I'm assuming that Grandfather Guthrie is England/civilization that keeps beating Richard for feeding the cat, and Richard is all the other pirate allies that can't help but heed Flint/the tomcat's crying.

One more thing: we know it's true, but it's surprising that neither Flint or Silver questioned the veracity of the letter telling them that Madi was alive. It could have easily been a trap to lure them in. Likewise, they should also be questioning how Rogers knows how important Madi is to them (which they'll probably do at some point considering it will lead them straight to Billy and line things up with TI).

Edited March 13, 2017 by Ravenya003

[Kathemy]

I don't know if it's surprising. How would anyone know they thought Madi dead?

[nodorothyparker]

Maybe because she was left behind when they retreated?  Assuming Billy's the one who pulled her out of the burning house but couldn't manage her by himself for whatever reason, he could probably reason that they wouldn't have left without her unless they already thought her dead.

Edit to add: I was a little surprised they were so quick to take the letter at face value too.  We know Silver isn't thinking clearly at all in regards to Madi and that Flint is Flint, but sooner or later it should occur to at least one of them that Billy or someone close to them had to have been involved to clue Rodgers in to who exactly Madi is and why she's important.

[MaryMatts]

I'm also wondering why Grandma Guthrie wants Flint dead?  What the hell did he do to her?  And seriously, everyone keeps saying Flint is insane but he seems to be the most level headed (not to mention compassionate) one of them all.  His anger seems to have dissipated with all the tragedy, deaths and grief.  Love how supportive of Silver he has become.

 

Does anyone do sneering as well as Toby Stephens?  He has that lip curl down to a fine art, lol!

 

(Shit, I am so going to miss this show when in ends.  It's seriously brilliant!)

[Enero]

I think Grandma Gutherie wants Flint taken out because he poses a threat to any form of success in Nassau via her deal with Rackham. After the massacre Flint pulled in Charles Town and the reign of terror he inflicted afterwards who in the "civilized" world wouldn't want him dead?

 

Quote

  And seriously, everyone keeps saying Flint is insane but he seems to be the most level headed (not to mention compassionate) one of them all.  His anger seems to have dissipated with all the tragedy, deaths and grief.  Love how supportive of Silver he has become.

You think his decision to invade Boston is levelheaded? I love Flint too, mainly due to TS's brilliant interpretation of him. However, insane is an understatement of what he's planning and as many have already stated, Flint will never stop. It'll always be some impossible war to win for him, some city to conquer in an attempt to make England pay. 

I don't think his anger has dissipated. I think it is controlled because so far, so good. He's had a few set backs in his war, but for the most part things are going his way. Yeah the Governor still sits in Nassau but it's in ruins and other islands have fallen. He still has Silver in his back pocket (or as far as he knows) and now he has a whole army of Maroons and pirates ready and willing to follow him into this neverending war. At this point, he has no reason to be a raging lunatic. Let's see what happens when he learns Silver dug up the gold against his orders and has it on the Walrus. And when he tells Flint what he can do with his war, that he's choosing Madi (which I'm guessing will happen at some point). I suspect the kind compassionate Flint we've seen of the past few episodes will disappear in the blink of an eye. 

Quote

I could see Eleanor, if she had lived, aging into Grandma.  Eleanor was raised on Nassau, running wild away from most of the gentility, and could never quite get the balance between when to be a bad ass tough talker and when to use a smoother approach.  It doesn't mean she wouldn't have eventually learned it though.   

I remember one of the EPs of the show stating how interesting it was exploring the differences between Madi and Eleanor. Eleanor being raised motherless in the wildness of Nassau with a father who barely gave two shits about her while Madi was raised with both parents (granted her father was away "working" a LOT) who loved her and groomed her to be this fierce leader. The differences are quite apparent. Whereas Eleanor often struggled with her approach in dealing with the men in her world, Madi does seem to have more finesse (knowing better when to push and when to pull back). A lot of that was taught to her I'm sure through the mentorship she received from her mother, and a much lesser degree her father. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Enero

[raven]

Maybe Grandma Guthrie blames Flint for Eleanor's and Richard's deaths.  He (Flint) is the troublesome tomcat after all, and possibly Grandma has some idea of Eleanor allying herself with Flint for so long.  I'm still surprised that no one in Philadelphia arrests and hangs Jack immediately just for being a pirate.

I could see Eleanor, if she had lived, aging into Grandma.  Eleanor was raised on Nassau, running wild away from most of the gentility, and could never quite get the balance between when to be a bad ass tough talker and when to use a smoother approach.  It doesn't mean she wouldn't have eventually learned it though.   I still don't care about Rogers' grief.

I don't think Billy pulled Madi out of the fire; I think either Eleanor did or Madi woke and got herself out.  Madi was first shown with what, I assume, are captured slaves and Billy probably spotted her.  Billy walked in and surrendered so he wasn't captured; that says to me that he wasn't with her at any time.

Madi quietly facing down Woodes Rogers was one of my favorite scenes; you can just see her brain working through the options.  Loved when she told him she would also go down fighting. 

I guess Flint and Silver accepted the letter because it came under a white flag direct from Rogers?  Maybe there was some info in there to confirm his knowledge of who she was, that he would only know if she were alive.

The scene at the end with Jack and Anne was my other favorite scene.  Both actors do a great job of conveying the shared history of the characters and I feel like Jack and Anne have been together so long because they actually like each other, whatever else, they may sleep together sometimes but are always friends and accept each other.   He's never been embarrassed that she is so much tougher than he is.

 

33 minutes ago, MaryMatts said:

And seriously, everyone keeps saying Flint is insane but he seems to be the most level headed (not to mention compassionate) one of them all.  His anger seems to have dissipated with all the tragedy, deaths and grief.  Love how supportive of Silver he has become.

Other than wanting to attack Boston ;)  I love Flint in all of his insanity, despite all of the awful things he's done.    If he gets killed off, I hope it is gun blazing, sword flying, as bad as can be.

Excellent episode, moving the various pieces around.

[MaryMatts]

Quote

I love Flint in all of his insanity, despite all of the awful things he's done.    If he gets killed off, I hope it is gun blazing, sword flying, as bad as can be.

Gads, he is my favorite of them all. I'm always rooting for him 100%. It would be great if he found Thomas alive and just abandoned everything and rode off to be with the love of his life ....*sigh*. (I know, I know -- far fetched but that's the romantic in me lol, ;)

[ganesh]

Please make a spinoff of Grandma and Jack immediately. 

I was over Rogers "dainty manpain" about 3 seconds into it. 

I'm not sure that Billy's accounting of events is quite what happened though.

On 3/12/2017 at 11:39 AM, nodorothyparker said:

Loved Jack imitating Max when he was originally listing why she couldn't come.

The wording and cadence were perfect when Jack was imitating how she'd sell him out.

All right, Silver, are you forgetting Flint was the dude who *blew up a town*? Dial it down.

[SoapFan82]

On 3/12/2017 at 4:35 AM, Enero said:

Madi's "death" has ignited the turn in Silver, he is now Long John Silver and as a result, the partnership with he and Flint is about suffer a major blow that I doubt it will ever recover from.  Billy definitely knows his former peeps well and having Madi gave him just the ammunition he needed to destroy them. 

Did not care about Rogers' grief over Eleanor's death, at all. 

This was a great episode, not as great as the previous ones. IMO, it was almost filler, pretty much setting up the ground work for the final three episodes as well as further aligning the show with where these characters are, at the start of TI.

How many times have we heard that when Flint and Silver are of one mind they are unstoppable? I understand Billy's motivation, but I hate it. Silver is allowing his emotions to get the best of him, which is disappointing. I have to agree with Flint on this one; Madi wouldn't want them trading the treasure for her life.

Between Billy's actions, and Israel Hands whispering in Silver's ear, The Flint/Silver alliance is not long for this world.

The one thing I love about this show is that even when I don't agree with most of the other characters, I can usually see the driving force behind their actions.

Speaking of Billy, I know the soldier told Rogers they found Billy with captives from the island's interior, but did I miss how they ended up capturing with Madi, and how Billy knew they had her? Did Billy find her in Miranda's house and turn her over to the British? If so, shame on Flint for not checking the house after he found Eleanor outside.

As for Mrs. Hudson lying about the Spanish requesting Rackham. Eh. I still have no sympathy for Rogers.

I can't believe we only have 3 episodes left.

[yellowfred]

1 hour ago, MaryMatts said:

I'm also wondering why Grandma Guthrie wants Flint dead?  What the hell did he do to her?

I don't think it's personal.  Flint's just the main obstacle keeping Nassau from being a good investment for her.  I kind of wonder if she actually picked him out by name or if she asked Jack and Max who the driving force behind the continued pirate resistance is.  Optimistically, that also means that Jack doesn't necessarily have to kill Flint, just take him out of the picture, which means that Max's labor camp/hideaway for rich people (which may or may not contain Thomas Hamilton) could still come back into play.

[WatchrTina]

13 hours ago, attica said:

I want one more scene of Anne swinging down from the mizzenmast with a knife between her teeth. Is that so much to ask?

No.  Not it's not.  Anne needs to go out of this series with a bang and not a whimper.

2 hours ago, MaryMatts said:

everyone keeps saying Flint is insane but he seems to be the most level headed (not to mention compassionate) one of them all.

He seems level-headed most of the time (I would never have said "compassionate") but when he started talking about taking the fight to Boston I was like "Dude, what?  No.  Just no.  There are too many people in Boston already and NONE of them is going to accept being governed by a pirate coalition." And does he really think King George is going to let Boston go?  Letting go of one small island is one thing -- but he's not letting go of a major seaport on a brand-new continent full of unexploited potential.  Maybe I just didn't understand Flint's plan, but he sure seems to be suffering from delusions of grandeur at this point.

1 hour ago, raven said:

I guess Flint and Silver accepted the letter because it came under a white flag direct from Rogers?

I think they accepted the letter because how else would Rogers know that Madi was missing unless he had her?    If Rogers were lying, what could possibly have motivated him to cook up such a lie?  How would he even know that everyone on Maroon Island thinks Madi died in a fire?  For that matter, how would he know that she matters to Silver?  

Edited March 14, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Tanya852]

4 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

There are too many people in Boston already and NONE of them is going to accept being governed by a pirate coalition.

I agree that Flint's plan is insane, but I don't think he wants to rule Boston. He wants to sack it, like they did with Charlestown.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Tanya852

[Ravenya003]

6 hours ago, Enero said:

I remember one of the EPs of the show stating how interesting it was exploring the differences between Madi and Eleanor. Eleanor being raised motherless in the wildness of Nassau with a father who barely gave two shits about her while Madi was raised with both parents (granted her father was away "working" a LOT) who loved her and groomed her to be this fierce leader. The differences are quite apparent. Whereas Eleanor often struggled with her approach in dealing with the men in her world, Madi does seem to have more finesse (knowing better when to push and when to pull back). A lot of that was taught to her I'm sure through the mentorship she received from her mother, and a much lesser degree her father.

A little OT, but this reminds me of the key difference between Margaery Tyrell and Cersei Lannister over on Game of Thrones. I think it was Natalie Dormer who pointed out that Margaery was nurtured by a matriarch, while Cersei was oppressed by a patriarch. It made all the difference in their dealings with others (Margaery being sweetly manipulative, and Cersei wielding her power like a blunt instrument). You can see the parallel between them and Eleanor/Madi.

[attica]

9 hours ago, ganesh said:

Please make a spinoff of Grandma and Jack immediately. 

10/10 would watch.

3 hours ago, Tanya852 said:

I don't think he wants to rule Boston.

Agreed. Once he gets there, and sees all the Wahlberg and Affleck ancestors sitting around Boston Harbor's Dunkin' Donuts drinking coffee, he'll turn his boat around quicker than you can say "Masshole." ;)

[kay1864]

12 hours ago, Enero said:

Let's see what happens when he learns Silver dug up the gold against his orders and has it on the Walrus.

When *did* that happen?  Did we see it being dug up, or just the chest stored in the hold?  (and isn't it all converted to pearls?)  

[DarkRaichu]

43 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

When *did* that happen?  Did we see it being dug up, or just the chest stored in the hold?  (and isn't it all converted to pearls?)  

LOL I was just imagining how the market for black pearls would have collapsed had Flint/Silver/Rackham distributed the content of the cache to the rest of the pirates.  They would most likely try to exchange their pearls for gold all at the same time :D :D :D

[netlyon2]

7 hours ago, kay1864 said:

When *did* that happen?  Did we see it being dug up, or just the chest stored in the hold?  (and isn't it all converted to pearls?)  

I figured that the cache was already recovered when Silver, Flint, and company returned to the Maroon camp.  Silver did send Kofi to retrieve it a week beforehand, and the queen said that she wouldn't let Kofi leave, not that she wouldn't let him dig up the chest.  I'm really curious as to who Silver told the location and when he told them (I do believe that he told Madi).  Related Note:  To me, having Kofi guard the chest on the ship strongly suggests that Silver's Plan B has the queen's blessing, as well.

For some reason (maybe we got a glimpse of it in Season 3), I think the chest contains a variety of gold and other high-value items, not just black pearls.  Given the value in gold pieces of a single pearl, that chest is way too big (and heavy) to be just holding pearls.  Max may have converted her entire share to pearls, though.

[MaryMatts]

12 hours ago, attica said:

10/10 would watch.

Agreed. Once he gets there, and sees all the Wahlberg and Affleck ancestors sitting around Boston Harbor's Dunkin' Donuts drinking coffee, he'll turn his boat around quicker than you can say "Masshole." ;)

Lol, that's hysterical.  Good point! 

 

Re the chest with the gold: what th hell happened to all the Urca treasure?  When jack showed it to Anne (or was it Max?) it seemed to be a room full of gold and jewels and now all that is left is one chestful?

[ulkis]

On 3/12/2017 at 3:36 PM, tennisgurl said:

Grandma Guthrie is the kind of women that Eleanor always seemed like she wanted to be, but never quite could. She had a cool confidence that Eleanor seemed to lack. Or maybe Eleanor was just never any good at playing the game. Grandma Guthrie seemed to be happy to work behind the scenes, while Eleanor seemed like she alternately wanted to be taken seriously as a leader and as a woman without a man, but also constantly hitching her wagon to a man. Its probably why she always had less success than Anne or Max, who were both committed to either being fully independent, or working the system.

Yeah, I think they showed that with the grandmother using the embroidery hoop. Grandmother Guthrie used it successfully; Eleanor pricked her finger.

[raven]

Quote

 When jack showed it to Anne (or was it Max?) it seemed to be a room full of gold and jewels and now all that is left is one chestful?

Except for the one chest, the rest of the treasure was returned to the Spanish by Rogers when his troops took over Nassau.  The treasure was mainly stored in the fort.   The Spanish were threatening to come in and rain hell on everyone if they didn't get the treasure back.  Originally they wanted everything, including the final chest, but I think the Spanish told Rogers that it was "forgiven" - not the right word, I don't remember the exact quote.

[ulkis]

oh, and you could tell this was a "filler" episode because there wasn't too much graphic material and barely any cursing, heh. I think fuck was only said twice, by Silver and by Jack.

Edited March 16, 2017 by ulkis

[MaryMatts]

11 minutes ago, raven said:

Except for the one chest, the rest of the treasure was returned to the Spanish by Rogers when his troops took over Nassau.  The treasure was mainly stored in the fort.   The Spanish were threatening to come in and rain hell on everyone if they didn't get the treasure back.  Originally they wanted everything, including the final chest, but I think the Spanish told Rogers that it was "forgiven" - not the right word, I don't remember the exact quote.

Oh!  How in hell did I miss that part, lol?  I just don't remember it at all.  I really need to watch this all over again.

[WatchrTina]

To add insult to injury, Rogers learned he had to give everything back to the Spanish just after Max had solved his personal money problems by buying her way into his inner circle / ruling council by giving him her share of the secret Urca stash that Max/Anne/Jack had snuck out of the fort and converted to more portable gems.  Max kept her position but Rogers had to give her payment to the Spanish.  Poor Rogers can't catch a break. But now he's been revealed to be a ruthless, cruel man when it suits him so to hell with him. 

Edited March 17, 2017 by WatchrTina

[GodsBeloved]

On 3/13/2017 at 10:39 PM, WatchrTina said:

I think they accepted the letter because how else would Rogers know that Madi was missing unless he had her?    If Rogers were lying, what could possibly have motivated him to cook up such a lie?  How would he even know that everyone on Maroon Island thinks Madi died in a fire?  For that matter, how would he know that she matters to Silver?  

Really late but I assumed Billy told Rodgers that Madi mattered to Silver and that's why they could use her to bargain for the cache

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 6/3/2017 at 5:24 AM, GodsBeloved said:

Really late but I assumed Billy told Rodgers that Madi mattered to Silver and that's why they could use her to bargain for the cache

Late also, but I don't think Watchrtina was questioning that. She was saying Rodgers couldn't have known Madi was important to Silver if he didn't really have her, so Flint and Silver believed him when he said he had her.