S12.E15: Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell

[ILoveReading]

8 hours ago, Lemuria said:

ILoveReading, I'm hoping that Dean's agreement at the end is that he knows now that both Mary and Sam are allying themselves with the BMoL and if he wants them to stay safe--and we know that is important to him--he needs to be there when they are hunting with the BMoL ( or with info from the British twits).  If that's the case, I'll be interested in seeing what happens if Dean decides, "Nope, they're useless and we can't rely on them or their intel," but Sam and Mary want to keep working with them.

I wish I could feel this way, but so far everything has been straight up.  What you see is what you get.  Sam appears to have drunk the koolaide.  He can tell himself its on his terms but is it really?  Especially if he's not questioning anything.   Right now, Sam and Dean seem to have signed up to be puppets.  They might not have the strings attached like Mary does but right now, its 'here's a hunt.  Go'  'Sir, yes sir.'

It seems Dabb really does believe these guys are the good guys, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Dean also start sipping from the cup they they hand him.

It seems like all of Dean's inner circle are lying to him at this point.  Mary lied, Sam lied, Cas lied and Crowley (admittingly to Sam too). 

That was another thing that bothered me about this episode.  It totally undermined 12.12 (which Perez also wrote).  Cas decided that the Winchesters are this home.  Dean even said 'let go home."  But I guess its "nope not really because my "blood family' wants me back. 

Family doesn't end with blood really feels empty after that. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by ILoveReading

[mertensia]

Dean was thinking long and hard and putting pieces together after Sam's confession. He is not stupid. If things go south he will go after the BMoL. Yes, even back to the UK.

[SueB]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

I wish I could feel this way, but so far everything has been straight up.  What you see is what you get.  Sam appears to have drunk the koolaide.  He can tell himself its on his terms but is it really?  Especially if he's not questioning anything.   Right now, Sam and Dean seem to have signed up to be puppets.  They might not have the strings attached like Mary does but right now, its 'here's a hunt.  Go'  'Sir, yes sir.'

It seems Dabb really does believe these guys are the good guys, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Dean also start sipping from the cup they they hand him.

1) See previous dialog (two posts up) discussion why "puppets" is an inaccurate description IMO.
2) Dabb has clearly shown they are NOT good guys or there would be no point in killing people Sam and Dean specifically spared.  They showed it to us but NOT to Sam and Dean. Which means it's a pretty obvious "reveal" coming in a not-too-distant future episode (is my guess). 

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

That was another thing that bothered me about this episode.  It totally undermined 12.12 (which Perez also wrote).  Cas decided that the Winchesters are this home.  Dean even said 'let go home."  But I guess its "nope not really because my "blood family' wants me back. 

Family doesn't end with blood really feels empty after that.

Cas has known the Winchesters for less than 10 years.  He's been angel along with his brothers for millennia.  I would find it odd if he didn't have conflicting loyalties.

 

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It seems Dabb really does believe these guys are the good guys, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Dean also start sipping from the cup they they hand him.

I would think if that were true, he would actually portray them as good guys. 

[SueB]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

1) I don't know who the fuck those guys were in the beginning of the episode. I mean since when do they not immediately question whether someone made a deal or not. That's just stupid.

2) Dean is not going to revel in wearing the same underwear for 4 days nor wallow in gross body parts if he can get cleaned up.  Dean is a neat freak. He constantly washes his face and his hands. Who the fuck was that guy?

3) Dean doesn't give a shit if Sam drives the Impala anymore. Old joke has no place in the show now. Baby being injured broke my heart.

4) Hellhounds can just be fought off with an ax now. If only Dean knew this before he was ripped apart. WTF?

5) Did Sam restart the trials by killing the hellhound?

1) & 4) To quote dying Jo: "They have our scent, those bitches will never give up."  So, the fact that she was alive was sufficient data to say it was the boyfriend and NOT the girl who sold their soul.  Because an ax pissed off Ramsey but it didn't kill it.  If Ramsey was a standard contract-soul-repo Hell Hound, Ramsey would have chased the girl down and got "her gal" (as opposed to got 'his man').  But she didn't.  Ramsey was deterred by a simple ax.  Pissed but temporarily deterred.  It didn't have the 'imperative' to kill.  Which is another sign that the Hell Hound was not there on assignment.  OTOH, they DID stay and keep an eye out.  They didn't leave immediately and call it Miller-time.  And because they stayed and kept an eye out, they (again) chased the hound off.  So, IMO, there was no lore violation at all.  Just the opposite, because Ramsey was acting odd they knew there was a problem with the hound and called it's supposed Master (Crowley).

2) & 3) - I agree, Mr. Perez needs to learn more about Dean and neatness.  Although I suspect the 'throwing guck' was an ad lib.  And as for the "look out for her" being an old joke -- meh, it wasn't a great joke, but it wasn't horrible.  Telling Sam he rides the brakes was out of place and took away from the previous line.

5) No. He didn't 'bathe" in it (the trial wasn't just to kill a hound but to bathe in it's blood) and he didn't do any spell.  

Edited March 10, 2017 by SueB
saved real-estate by keeping quote to just what I referenced

[Boopsahoy]

I will rewatch tonight without commercials. I actually liked how Dean handled the lying. He told Sam how he felt, he put conditions on working with them, and he doesn't trust them. He didn't apologize or grovel. I actually thought that whole scene was pretty mature of them. Although I think Dean probably knew Sam was lying about something as he is soooo bad at it LOL

My favorite part of the episode was Crowley. My husband and I are all oh man Crowley what were you thinking! Not caging Lucifer is asking for trouble! And then Lucifer is let out and we were so annoyed-I actually said what happened to smart Crowley? And then Crowley came through being 10 steps ahead of Lucifer. We loved it when Lucifer spread his wings and Crowley just snapped his fingers.

I need to watch again and pay better attention to Cas's scenes. Im not really sure whats going on there, but his FAMILY is the Winchesters. They have stood by him even after he did terrible things. WHY would he trust heaven now? Stupid question, Cas always seems to trust the wrong people/mission although always with the best intentions.

Catrox I agree I hated the characterization of Dean at the beginning. That's the Dean that was pissed at Sam for throwing a gumwrapper on the floor, he never would have thrown guts around and he would never wear his boxers over and over again. Learn the characters writers-and realize you cant change their personalities for the sake of a "joke"

I liked the fact that even though hes a frenemy, they thanked Crowley. He does do some things for them that he should rightfully be thanked for.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Boopsahoy
lazy typing

[SueB]

12 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Little complaints: why are Lucifer's wings so full and intact when he's a fallen Angel while Castiel's are so threadbare? 

Lucifer was a metaphorical "fallen angel".  Michael stuffed him in the Cage WITH wings. Cas and the rest of the Heavenly Host literally came in like meteors and had their wings ripped off.

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, SueB said:

1) See previous dialog (two posts up) discussion why "puppets" is an inaccurate description IMO.
2) Dabb has clearly shown they are NOT good guys or there would be no point in killing people Sam and Dean specifically spared.  They showed it to us but NOT to Sam and Dean. Which means it's a pretty obvious "reveal" coming in a not-too-distant future episode (is my guess). 

We can agree to disagree here.  It feels like the Ruby situation all over again.  Sam kept telling himself that he was using her.  He didn't trust her, she was just a means to an end, yet it very much turned out she was using him to further her agenda. 

Simply saying the words isn't really reliable when the actions contradict them.  Despite the Brits being completely inept, Sam is singing their praises and giving them credit for things they didn't do.   They send him cases and he goes after them.  He can tell himself its about just them sending him on a case, but he's doing their bidding and relying on them for the next "order." If we go by what we've seen on screen, Sam has only gone on their missions.  That's exactly how it started with Mary.  He even lied to Dean about it. 

Given how shoddy Sam knows their intel is, is he double checking before taking off?  When Dean brough him the newpaper article, he read it and shot it down because it didn't sound like something.  Now it seems like they send Sam a text and their off. 

That very much fits my definition of working for them. 

[Myrelle]

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I have to tell myself Dean didn't react because he's just done.   Done with Mary, done with Sam and done with being lied too and at the end of the season he's going to take off.  (not really but its my happy place.).

Actually, I thought that was exactly how JA played Dean in that last scene-as if he'd have liked to have taken off, at that very minute, but of course, he couldn't for the same old, same old reasons-have to watch over the family-the same family that continually lies to him but at the same time demands that he trust them and everything and anything that they want/choose to do. Again and some more. Honestly even JA looked sick of the same old, same old to me in that scene. But it would fit for Dean, too. He learned a long time ago that Sam will do whatever Sam wants, however Sam wants to do it, no matter what he(Dean) thinks and all Dean can do is follow in his wake and help clean up the mess when the other shoe drops. I thought Jensen played Dean's weariness with it all perfectly in that last scene and the last thing he did was prompt Sam to do what Sam was itching to do anyway-answer the phone. And if that was partly Jensen's feeling, too? Well, who could blame him.

It's all so Predictable, which was what this episode was and yes, with a capital P. Hey, and look at that, we can add the the writer's name on and it makes  for perfect alliteration-Predictable Perez.

 But hey, at least he put the words in Dean's mouth that fit in better with the fact that Dean does think of the hunt, first and foremost, and that they've accepted help from the King of Hell, so why not the Kings of Douchebaggery; and to make Sam feel better, I'm sure.

I think that Dean is still the top hunter on this show, but it might be only Jensen who's able to telegraph that, IMO, and at this point in the sl, because for all intents and purposes and going strictly by the dialogue the brothers are now both working for/with the Kings of Ineptitude and Douchebaggery and they both think that they(the Brits) can be "helpful" and it all came about in the same way that working with Ruby and The Campbells did originally. What a surprise. Not.

Sam got the kill of The Big Kahuna Hellhound in another predictable moment in a Perez script. No biggie because I knew that was coming when Dean said that he does most of the heavy lifting on the hunts in that awful opening scene. And I, too, was only thinking that Dean was going to be So. Pissed. when the Hellhound started messing with the car. Nothing else, really. Just that. Sam getting schooled on lying was somewhat satisfying. I found it interesting that the girl said that she knew that her boyfriend loved her more than she loved him; her guilt over leading him into the woods under false pretenses was very on the nose, but still satisfying to me because at least it wasn't Dean being schooled on something that he should have learned years ago this time and in fact has actually been shown to supposedly have learned years ago. Good to know that Berens and Perez are on the same page under Dabb in that way.

Man, these last three episodes have highlighted just how bad the writing can be, IMO, and this is another one of those times when it just feels so hard to even want to come back for the next episode. Good thing that there's a little hiatus right now because these guys need to hope that absence will make the heart grow fonder within the fandom as opposed to out of sight, out of mind. Personally speaking, I know that I'm happy for the break and at least we'll come back with a Glynn episode.

 

52 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean didn`t apologize? Well, that is good at least.

He didn't. And for me, Jensen saved the Dean folding again trope that they love so much with Dean's obvious weariness over the whole redundant situation. But this episode was really bad, still the same. Dean wandering around the woods with Crowley on the hunt was ridiculous as someone else mentioned because the hellhound was after the girl, so they all should have stayed  with the girl. Duh.

But this WAS a Crowley episode, in truth. He got all the best stuff. He even got thanked by both Winchesters for saving Cas. I still love the Dean/Crowley dynamic and he saved Cas to please Dean, IMO. I think he even said something to that effect. Not sure, though, because Dean in glasses does things to me, too, Crowley.

This one was very poorly written and pretty much along the same lines as the last two, IMO, and as such, watch at your own risk. But yeah, Dean not being made/forced to apologize again was the deciding factor for me with this one. And I did hear that The Ackting saved that last scene somewhat, too. And I agree with that assessment.

Oh, the Cas stuff was all set-up and pretty boring, IMO. The Lucifer stuff was awful and again a waste of screen-time, IMO. Wish with all that's in me that they would get rid of him at the end of the season.

[bethy]

38 minutes ago, SueB said:

And Dean's rationale was sound plus he set conditions.  I'd call it maturity, not caving due to low self-esteem.  

Could not agree more. This is different than how either of them have responded to  disagreements in the past. Previously we've had one brother lie, lie, lie, get found out, justify, justify, justify; lied-to-brother rages, snarks, sulks; disaster happens to show lying-brother was wrong; lying-brother rarely explicitly apologizes; lied-to-brother grudgingly agrees to keep going because "family" (see also Mary). Lather rinse repeat. 

To me, this was paradigm shifting. I had other issues with this episode, but that I liked. A lot.

[ILoveReading]

9 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Honestly even JA looked sick of the same old, same old to me in that scene. But it would fit for Dean, too. He learned a long time ago that Sam will do whatever Sam wants, however Sam wants to do it, no matter what he(Dean) thinks and all Dean can do is follow in his wake and help clean up the mess when the other shoe drops. I thought Jensen played Dean's weariness with it all perfectly in that last scene and the last thing he did was prompt Sam to do what Sam was itching to do anyway-answer the phone. And if that was partly Jensen's feeling, too? Well, who could blame him.

Hopefully this will continue down the road, with Dean being allowed to keep this instincts.    I hope that Dean's Men of Letters name is Aragorn and not Samwise. 

That scene also reminded me of Jensen's massive eyeroll at comic con when he said Mary would be just one more person he would have to sacrifice for.

Edited March 10, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Pondlass1]

My frustrations....

Neat freak Dean drives home covered in monster goop and wearing 4 day old underwear.  He drives past motels with showers, but doesn’t stop.

Dean is now a computer moron – WTF is that?

Dean no longer a stubborn bastard.  He’ll happily go along with anything these days.

Lucille – no gag really is too cheap apparently.

The two Marks spend the episode info dumping and ‘splaining things.  No real acting required. Just some glaring.

Hellhound runs from a 100 pound girl with an ax. (Ellen & Jo could've used an ax in that hardware store)

Choppy sloppy editing – boring guest girl wastes 5 minutes talking about boring love life.

We didn’t need sneak peeks – we already predicted... Dean will wander the woods and have an awkward conversation with Crowley meanwhile Sam and his eyebrows will see action.

Demons, once so intimidating and terrifying – now stupid and gullible.

Oh bloody hell, Cas!  Not heaven again! More humorless angels in 3-piece business suits, using cell phones and carrying clip boards.

This episode was poorly written. Davy has no clue about his characters or past history of the show.

Season 13 will be Rosemary's Baby it seems.  

Hiatus - time to pull out those DVDs seasons 1-4 and remember the good ol' days and why I fell in love with this show. 

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It reminded me of Jensen's massive eyeroll at comic con when he said Mary would be just one more person he would have to sacrifice for.

I remember that, too.

And yeah, from the way Jensen played it there, it now seems to me that Dean feels as if he has two Sams in need of watching over-as if one of them wasn't enough. And he was still trying to think in terms of "us" and "we" before this latest Sam revelation. The weariness could have been at simply having to make that same kind of adjustment/shift again, only he had to double down on it this time, because of Mary and because Sam hasn't really changed all that much in regards to the lying/hiding things-or as much as Dean might have hoped he'd changed. That was how Jensen played it to me, anyway-literally, back to the same old, same old only X 2 now.

[SueB]

12 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

1) Perez is 0 for 3.   I called it last week and in the spoiler thread.  Dean wonders in the woods while Sam get to do everything.   Not only that but of course he does it without glasses. 

2) Once again another ep Dean wasn't needed for. That opening scene was terrible.  Dean can hack computers and he's kind of a neat freak.  But apparenty he;s perfectly okay being covered in blood.  I didn't find it funny. 

3) He caved way to fast.  But who didn't see Dean rolling over and playing good little solider.  He didn't even seem all that upset that Sam lied to him.

3- again) It does really look like Sam has drunk the koolaide..

1) & 2) As you stated in the Bitch/Jerk thread: 

Quote

Of course, "importance to plot" is always going to be subjective, for me its more about how I feel about something after it airs. I have a friend, she's not online so nothing she reads influences her. We're both big Dean fans  but there have been episodes over the series that I've liked and she hasn't.  Of course, people are going to prioritize different things because we all watch for different reasons.  I don't really have any other way to describe it. Screen times, number of lines, etc don't mean much.  I'd take five minutes of quality Dean over 42 minutes of him standing around or random shots of Dean driving the car and getting to late to actually participate in the hunt.

If you mean "called it" from the perspective that Sam since we saw the Hell Hound attacking Sam (in the promo), Sam got the kill while Dean was elsewhere -- you did say that.  But "Sam gets to do everything" is inaccurate.  Sam got the kill.  And I DO think it's fair to say that Sam has gotten bigger kills in the last few episodes than is typical of a season.  There was a detailed statistics gathered a while ago on number of kills by character - I'd hazard a guess that Dean is still "in the lead".  But "got to do everything" depends, IMO, on your POV regarding the point of this episode. It's also important that Sam and Dean were separated on this hunt so that the over-arching plot could make progress (see next paragraph).

I thought Dean "wandering in the woods" WAS actually important for explaining his decision at the end of the episode.  From a Crowley, Dean perspective, Dean is once again observing Crowley and telling him he's gone soft. Crowley puts the notion that maybe DEAN has changed (the boys HAVE changed... it tied right back to Dean's rationale for accepting working with the Brits.  This scene established two important things: Dean (and Sam) work with people they don't trust and Dean has a more nuanced view of the world than the Brits.

SO, if the purpose of the Sam/Dean plot in this weeks episode was ONLY the MOTW, then I'd say that Sam got the kill so that makes his contributions more significant.  Although it's Dean who has the relationship with Crowley and was able to make a call and get Crowley to show.  I'm not sure if Crowley would have stayed on the phone with Sam long enough to even hear what he had to say.  If the purpose of the episode was to move they season arc along so that now BOTH boys are engaging with the BMoL, then Dean's conversation w/ Crowley was more relevant.

Since I think these episodes usually have more than one purpose, I think the MOTW had final resolution by Sam and Dean's storyline progressed the longer-term arc.  All we got regarding Cas was 1) he's getting better at the FBI thing (if he could just get his badge straight) and 2) he's gone to Heaven where he knows he's not welcome in an attempt to coordinate with Joshua.  And it's scary.

3 & 3-again) See my response to Mystery Gal as to why the dialog doesn't support this POV. 

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

1) & 2) As you stated in the Bitch/Jerk thread: 

If you mean "called it" from the perspective that Sam since we saw the Hell Hound attacking Sam (in the promo), Sam got the kill while Dean was elsewhere -- you did say that.  But "Sam gets to do everything" is inaccurate.  Sam got the kill.  And I DO think it's fair to say that Sam has gotten bigger kills in the last few episodes than is typical of a season.  There was a detailed statistics gathered a while ago on number of kills by character - I'd hazard a guess that Dean is still "in the lead".  But "got to do everything" depends, IMO, on your POV regarding the point of this episode. It's also important that Sam and Dean were separated on this hunt so that the over-arching plot could make progress (see next paragraph).

I thought Dean "wandering in the woods" WAS actually important for explaining his decision at the end of the episode.  From a Crowley, Dean perspective, Dean is once again observing Crowley and telling him he's gone soft. Crowley puts the notion that maybe DEAN has changed (the boys HAVE changed... it tied right back to Dean's rationale for accepting working with the Brits.  This scene established two important things: Dean (and Sam) work with people they don't trust and Dean has a more nuanced view of the world than the Brits.

SO, if the purpose of the Sam/Dean plot in this weeks episode was ONLY the MOTW, then I'd say that Sam got the kill so that makes his contributions more significant.  Although it's Dean who has the relationship with Crowley and was able to make a call and get Crowley to show.  I'm not sure if Crowley would have stayed on the phone with Sam long enough to even hear what he had to say.  If the purpose of the episode was to move they season arc along so that now BOTH boys are engaging with the BMoL, then Dean's conversation w/ Crowley was more relevant.

Since I think these episodes usually have more than one purpose, I think the MOTW had final resolution by Sam and Dean's storyline progressed the longer-term arc.  All we got regarding Cas was 1) he's getting better at the FBI thing (if he could just get his badge straight) and 2) he's gone to Heaven where he knows he's not welcome in an attempt to coordinate with Joshua.  And it's scary.

3 & 3-again) See my response to Mystery Gal as to why the dialog doesn't support this POV. 

3- Please see my comments as to why I feel like it does support this POV.   We see this differently.  

The rest I'll address in the Bitch/Jerk thread as its too off topic here.

[bozodegama]

Jeez, I really like the Davy Perez episodes, esp. Stuck in the Middle with you which i thought was a classic ep.  This one was a little slower and less well paced but still pretty good. I'm glad that they may bring back Joshua if it's really him.  I really hope that Cass knows what he's doing and that it's actually Joshua upstairs and not some kind of trick.  That Kelvin? angel was a little too slick talking imo.  Joshua was the only kind angel besides Cass (maybe Hannah) that we've met and he was a fan of the Winchester's ("I'm rooting for you boys") so if it's actually him upstairs, it won't be so bad.  But I think Cass is going to get imprisoned or something bad.  No way are they letting him back into Heaven unless Joshua's in charge upstairs.   I'm glad Sam came clean with Dean about the BMOL.  I did think Dean was way too chill about the whole thing and he (and Sam) are going to freak when things go south with them.  This ep. was a plot mover and it did what it was suppossed to do.  And it was totally cool that Crowley warded Lucifer's Nick vessel.  Dean didn't too much but he's got a lot of killing and badass moments coming up towards the end of the season imo.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Oh no they didn't with the club!  :)

And...of course Sam is lying to Dean again!  And has to learn the lesson that lying is bad again!  That's a bitterness for me, so no more about that on this thread, except I was really disappointed to see the story went there again.  I was really hoping for something better and more original.  I knew from the beginning of the ep that would happen, so I wasn't really able to enjoy the episode as much I maybe could have.  And for a moment, I did hope that maybe I was wrong and it really would turn out to be a computer algorithm that Sam was using (cause That would have been Cool.)  But no.  ::heavy sigh::  At least Sam apologized to Dean for lying at the end - and I know there are those who are going to be very unhappy with Dean going along with the plan.  Well, get on board, cause I'm not happy about Sam being on board with the BMoL either or lying to Dean at the beginning, etc. etc. etc.

I liked Gwen and was glad she didn't wait in the car.

Cool twist with Crowley and Lucifer at the end.  That's what I'm talking about with something original.  When Nick showed his wings I thought it was going to be the same old same old Crowley humiliation that we've seen before.  Now why couldn't they do that with Sam and Dean?  I don't know - maybe there's still time after the next episode.

Cute moment with Dean being worried about Baby, but didn't really fit either.  Imo, Dean would be much more concerned about the girl than the car, no matter how much he loves the car.  I'm going to head!cannon that Dean really wasn't that worried about the car, but he was doing it to lighten the mood and try to make Gwen feel better - you know, if he can worry about the car, then obviously there was nothing for her to worry about.

They both look pretty hot in those glasses.

Sam thanking Crowley: Wow.  Just Wow.

We should be rewarded with scenes of Dean fixing Baby now.  

[SueB]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

We should be rewarded with scenes of Dean fixing Baby now.  

In no more than a tank top.  And Sam needs to help, same outfit.  Just saying, when Baby is hurt, I hurt.  I need some comfort "food".

[bethy]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

In no more than a tank top.  And Sam needs to help, same outfit.

And now I am imagining them both pants-less in just tank tops. 

[SueB]

1 minute ago, bethy said:

And now I am imagining them both pants-less in just tank tops. 

Doh... when inadvertent naughty imagery happens.... 

[bethy]

Except it's not even naughty to me because it puts me too much in mind of toddlers running around with just their shirts and no pants!

I may be weird.

Edited March 10, 2017 by bethy

[SueB]

Just now, bethy said:

Except it's not even naughty to me because it puts me too much in mind of toddlers running around with just their shirts and no pants. 

I may be weird.

Ah! Different imagery all-together.  And I get it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean is a neat freak. He constantly washes his face and his hands. Who the fuck was that guy?

And OF COURSE Sam was lying to Dean and Dean was hurt and felt betrayed but he learned lesson 24873676962.  

Yeah, I'm with everyone on Dean's slovenliness at the beginning being OOC.  And Sam the neat freak?  Not that Sam's an all-out slob either, but I think it's pretty well established that Dean is the neater one.

13 hours ago, rue721 said:

-- Pretty sure that Kelly's baby is not going to be evil, now that Crowley is talking about how he's going to tear it into pieces. Can't have the king of hell saving the world from devil spawn, I don't think. Better to have him kill or at least try to kill an innocent baby.

-- Sam saying that the BMOL killed the Alpha Vampire made me go, "aaaaaaguhghghhhhh." Sam killed the Alpha, and the BMOL acted as bait *if I'm being generous.* What is going on in Sam's head?

Interesting - I hadn't thought of that with the baby.

I had the same reaction when Sam said that it was due to the BMoL that the alpha vamp was dead.  Uh, no Sam.  Unless it's because they were the bait.  That's like saying it's all due to the worm that you hooked a fish for dinner.

13 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

I knew the fact that Sam killed the hellhound was going to be a problem for many. It use to never bother me which brother killed what but now I cringe when Sam kills anything because I know it's going to be another episode that people hate and delete and then talk about how much the writers hate Dean.

Sigh. It may be time for a break from the board. I'm starting to get bitter. This used to be fun.

Ditto.  

Fwiw, when Sam was sent off to drive Gwen around, I expected Dean to get the kill.  It would have been a good time for it, and since Sam killed the last one, it would have made sense to me also.  Now, it's just more bitterness to aim at Sam.

11 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I throw a cow at you! 

Charge!

10 hours ago, SueB said:

- They brought up Joshua.  Now if it's real, then that's a big "YAY!".  But if it's just a trick to get Cas up to Heaven, where they are going to hurt him, then it's a big "NO."

I did like the Joshua mention.  I would be happy if he were kinda running things in heaven - in his own laid back way.

I don't understand why Cas is still persona non-grata in heaven though?  Don't the angels see the episodes?  Wasn't it revealed by Boogertron himself over the loudspeaker that The Fall was not Cas' fault?  And seeing as how Guck himself gave Cas a pass, why should the other angels hold anything else against him?    

10 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think Sam's brain is still damaged from the huge chunk of plotonium that fell on his head last week.

If I could like your post multiple times, I would.

3 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

I hated Sam lying about the same thing that his mother had, only with the added knowledge of how that had torn Dean up when she did it.

 

This is exactly why Sam lying in the first place made absolutely no sense to me.  It was just two episodes ago - and carried over into the last episode - where we saw the reaction to Mary lying about working with the BMoL.  Sam was hurt too; as much or more than Dean.  And now Sam is doing the same thing?  Like @DittyDotDot has said and @AwesomO4000 said above: Sam has brain damage.

Quote

The hell hound wanted the girl - if you want to find it, stay by her - don't send her and Sam off on a road trip to . . . where?  Back to the apartment warded with goofer dust?  Why didn't they just stay there in the first place? 

I thought the same thing.  I get that maybe they didn't want to use the girl as bait.  But heck, they've done that in the past humans, so why not?  

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam appears to have drunk the koolaide.  He can tell himself its on his terms but is it really?  Especially if he's not questioning anything.   Right now, Sam and Dean seem to have signed up to be puppets.  They might not have the strings attached like Mary does but right now, its 'here's a hunt.  Go'  'Sir, yes sir.'

I hate it, but I have to agree with this re; Sam.  I don't think Dean has drunk the Kool-Aid, nor do I think he will.  But, without seeing Sam doing his own fact checking on the tip offs for the cases from the BMoL, it sure seems to me like he's just a lackey now.

28 minutes ago, bethy said:

And now I am imagining them both pants-less in just tank tops. 

Eep!  Well, Dean can definitely leave the 4 day old underwear at home...

[Katy M]

26 minutes ago, bethy said:

Except it's not even naughty to me because it puts me too much in mind of toddlers running around with just their shirts and no pants!

I may be weird.

OK, but they need underwear.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

nd because they stayed and kept an eye out, they (again) chased the hound off.  So, IMO, there was no lore violation at all.  Just the opposite, because Ramsey was acting odd they knew there was a problem with the hound and called it's supposed Master (Crowley).

My point re the boys in the comment you've highlighted was not so much about the hellhound lore itself, but more about how the boys went about their investigation. FWIW, I do have many thoughts on the Hellhounds lore being altered over time but I'll take that to the all seasons or lore thread. In short, IMO, that line from Jo in Abandon All Hope was a retcon to the Hellhound lore to setup the killing off of Jo in as gruesome and heartbreaking manner as possible. IMO they didn't care about the hellhound lore since the show was supposed to be ending. I remember when it took the Colt to kill a Hellhound in that same episode and a mixture of salt, nails, holy water, etc to blow them up. Now, Dean shooting Ramsey with his regular pistol and her being hit with an ax and being clocked with the Green Cooler are enough to make her vulnerable? Whatever, show.

Quote

Uh, but she's pretty shaken up, saying all sorts of strange things.
Like what? Like that they were attacked by a wolf -- an invisible wolf.
[ Chuckles ] Girl says that, you know, it came outta nowhere and that it's coming after her next.
Right.
[ Laughs ] Sheriff, thank you.
Dean: Invisible dog, huh? Sounds like a hellhound to me.
Sam: Yeah.
Gwen! Run! Marcus? [ Growls ] [ Grunting ] [ Screams ] Oh, my God! Aah! [ Growling ] [ Engine turns off ]

Dean: [ Sighs ] This is dumb. It's a dumb idea.
Sam: Listen, Gwen saw something kill her boyfriend and she thinks it's coming for her next.
We just gotta tell her --

Dean: Tell her what? [ Sighs ] No, seriously, Sam, what are you gonna say? Hi, my name is Sam Winchester. This is my much handsomer brother Dean. We hunt monsters.
oh, and that guy you were banging? We're pretty sure he made a deal with a demon, so hellhound came and dragged his soul to Hell. But you? You're cool. And since there's nothing around for us to kill, peace out.
Sam: You done?
Dean: Yeah,
Sam: We don't say that, Dean. We say something that'll give her peace.  You know, help her sleep at night.
Dean: Oh, so we lie?
Sam [ Sighs ] Yeah, a lot.

I saw this whole scene,( and the thing with Cas and diner owner) as straight lifts from "Nightshifter". It was even filmed in call back style with the boys standing on the porch squished in the frame and holding their badges (which was an homage to XFiles but I digress). The only problem is that it worked in Nightshifter because of the monster and Ronald. 

It doesn't work here because Hellhounds don't go after people they haven't made a deal with. And even allowing for the "picked up the scent". I don't see how that was possible because AFAIR Gwen wasn't injured by Ramsey so why would she go after her. No if she was chasing her own scent...that might have been amusing. Like the dog chasing it's own tail...

Anyway, from the jump I have no idea why they would even bother to not think it was just a straightforward demon deal.

Accepting that they went because Sam was worried about her, they played the whole tell the truth or not tell the truth to Ronald schtick in their first interview, which does not work for this scenario. Sam didn't want to tell Ronald he was right because he thought that telling Ronald would get him killed because he doesn't know how to deal with monsters.  Dean thought he deserved to know and Dean was really bothered by it.  Sam not telling Ronald IMO got Ronald killed because he went off on his own.

IMO, they would not treat her as they did Ronald. They have learned too much over the years to lollygag about asking about a crossroads deal. Anyway, so Sam wants to go because he believes that she thinks it's after her. YET, he tells her it's all in her mind. So then why did they go at all?

IMO, if he bothered to go he wouldn't go to tell her she didn't see what she saw. NOT NOW. Not in this era of their lives.  IMO, they would insist on staying with her and probably put some goofer dust around the doors to make sure she was safe. Then call Crowley after they figured out she didn't make a deal.

So what was the point of Sam lying to her in the first place other than to set up "Sam is a lying liar who was lying to Dean" which was repeated in his conversation with Gwen and then his confession to Dean.

It was all PLOT PLOT PLOT at the expense of characterization and stupid meta jokes. All to get Crowley into the episode with a rogue hellhound! (hey remember rogue hunters!) And to get Crowley away from Lucifer to set up "LUCIFER MIGHT ESCAPE" but NO Crowley had this the whole way.

IMO, it was a poorly written episode from beginning to end and it lifted from too many other episodes yet didn't really work 

And upon rewatch, I'm really kind of pissed about the framing of Gwen being chased. That was almost identical to Dean being chased by hellhounds in No Rest for the Wicked. And that would be okay if the show at all remembers that Dean went to hell at the paws of hellhounds. Yes, this is a huge sticking point for me and it always will be, until they address it.

I didn't miss the "I'll...just be here" from Crowley.That was a straight lift of Cas' "I'll just wait here then". Not cool. Wait, is Crowley trying SWF Cas and Dean's relationship??   Hmmm.....

All in all, minus the Cas scenes which IMO were good,  I give this episode a big fat raspberry with a side of WTF

Edited March 10, 2017 by catrox14
clarifying my thoughts

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Not that Sam's an all-out slob either, but I think it's pretty well established that Dean is the neater one.

I think it depends on the season.  They used to have Sam making his hotel/motel beds and Dean not.

 

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't understand why Cas is still persona non-grata in heaven though?  Don't the angels see the episodes?  Wasn't it revealed by Boogertron himself over the loudspeaker that The Fall was not Cas' fault?  And seeing as how Guck himself gave Cas a pass, why should the other angels hold anything else against him?    

The fall was Cas's fault because once again he was naïve and just bought what any angel was selling.  The Darkness getting out was also partly his fault as he provided the sacrifice for Rowena.  And the Darkness killed quite a few angels.  Metatron escaping from Heaven's jail is all on Cas, although Metatron was unable to wreak more havoc so I don't know that that was a particularly big deal.  IIRC, Cas also killed a couple of angels who were torturing him after Rowena turned him into a dog.  Cas also killed Bartholomew, who presumably had many followers/fans.  He killed tons of angels after he popped Purgatory.  I don't know. I think they have more than enough reasons to be holding grudges.

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Ramsey with his regular pistol and her being hit with an ax and being clocked with the Green Cooler

I can't really defend the cooler other than it just distracted her, maybe, but if the axe was pure iron maybe that would be enough for a slight injury.  Would have been nice if they had said, "oh look, this axe is made of iron."

[Triskan]

Personally, the line that made the episode for me was the "girl of the week" one by Dean ! Nice meta there !

And I really liked that episode... too lazy to elaborate right now but I found really interesting and entertaining ! 

[catrox14]

Okay so as not to be completely negative, upon rewatch, I agree that Dean looked done with it all. I think Jensen played Dean as being deeply disappointed and resigned that both Mary and Sam lied to him about the same thing. IMO, Sam's 'I'm Sorry" didn't really matter to Dean. I think he looked pretty done.

I kind of worry when he finds out that Cas has gone back to heaven and didn't tell him. :(.

I did like that Dean pinged on something being off with Cas.

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't understand why Cas is still persona non-grata in heaven though?  Don't the angels see the episodes?  Wasn't it revealed by Boogertron himself over the loudspeaker that The Fall was not Cas' fault?  And seeing as how Guck himself gave Cas a pass, why should the other angels hold anything else against him?

Well, from the angels perspective Cass has screwed Heaven time and time again. It's not just being booted from Heaven, but:

• He rebelled in S4 and aligned himself with the Winchesters which ended up getting their leader locked up and their believed righteous mission derailed.
• Led a full on rebellion in Heaven while also secretly working with Hell which got a bunch of angels killed.
• Played God and and decimated Heaven.
• More angels laid their life on the line to rescue him from Purgatory only to end up being the death of Naomi and the rise of not-so-marvy Marv who kicked them out of Heaven. 
• Then, chose the Winchesters over Heaven again...and then again, for good measure.

So, yeah, I can see why the angels see him more as a terrorist than a hero, but, then again, the angels are fairly narrow-minded dicks... .

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And even allowing for the "picked up the scent". I don't see how that was possible because AFAIR Gwen wasn't injured by Ramsey so why would she go after her. No if she was chasing her own scent...that might have been amusing. Like the dog chasing it's own tail...

IMO, Hellhounds are really only formidable because they're invisible--and they're big and have teeth. They seem to be susceptible regular weaponry, though, you just can't see them to aim the weaponry effectively. And, even if you did, it would normally be pointless because another one would be sent out to collect your soul anyway. 

My guess is that since Ramsey had been locked in Hell for so long, and is only controllable by Lucifer anyway, once freed is basically a wild dog running amok. She probably went after the boyfriend because he ran and the hound saw it as a challenge or threat of some sort--as many wild animals do. The boyfriend led Ramsey back to Gwen, who just got lucky with the axe. But, now that Gwen got lucky with the axe, the hound started hunting her because, she's wild and pissed and, did I mention, wild?

That's my theory anyway.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

34 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think it depends on the season.  They used to have Sam making his hotel/motel beds and Dean not.

Oh.  Well, I don't remember that at all!  The only time I remember Dean being sloppy when he was affected in some way (the MOC, Demon) etc.

35 minutes ago, Katy M said:

The fall was Cas's fault because once again he was naïve and just bought what any angel was selling.  The Darkness getting out was also partly his fault as he provided the sacrifice for Rowena.  And the Darkness killed quite a few angels.  Metatron escaping from Heaven's jail is all on Cas, although Metatron was unable to wreak more havoc so I don't know that that was a particularly big deal.  IIRC, Cas also killed a couple of angels who were torturing him after Rowena turned him into a dog.  Cas also killed Bartholomew, who presumably had many followers/fans.  He killed tons of angels after he popped Purgatory.  I don't know. I think they have more than enough reasons to be holding grudges.

Cas was naive about Boogertron,  but then so were many other angels.  And Boogertron stole his grace.  So I wouldn't call that Cas' fault.

I thought Crowley provided the sacrifice for Roweena to remove the MOC from Dean.  

The Leviathans and declaring himself God - now that's a biggie.  And I could agree with that one, if all the other stuff hadn't happened in between (like when he was working with Hannah and they all seemed cool with that.) which seems like they're more mad about some recent stuff than that.  

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Then, chose the Winchesters over Heaven again...and then again, for good measure.

Technically, so did Guck.  So is all of Heaven mad at Him too?

Basically, as you said: they're just narrow minded dicks.

[SueB]

@catrox14 I'll keep it simple and quibble about the Hell Hound bit.  They showed a shotgun taking a chunk of Hell Hound next to Meg without putting it down (regular shotgun), so, I think they are susceptible to other weapons in terms of injury and distraction.  And the scent part is the key -- she had Gwen's scene, just like the Hell Hounds had "all" their scents.  Even normal dogs can hunt without blood involved.  The big difference is motivation.  She killed the boyfriend because he was handy.  Continued to chase Gwen because she pissed it off.  

What the boys knew when they walked up the walk: boyfriend was dead, Gwen was not.  If Gwen wasn't dead, the Hell Hound was not after her (using NORMAL lore).  But you are right, why go in the first place is a good question.  That WAS plotonium.  The reason given was to put her mind at rest, but I don't think they usually do that.  Which is part of why Dean had no 'good lie'.  

But I don't think they were dumb in the way they dealt with her (by not asking about a deal at the start) or the Hell Hound. And they stayed behind 'just in case' -- which means they had SOME concern for her safety.  

[catrox14]

48 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think it depends on the season.  They used to have Sam making his hotel/motel beds and Dean not.

There is a difference between being a little messy and dirty.

I think Dean's neat freak side is pretty consistent throughout the series. Back when Dean they had messy hotel rooms that's because it was hotel rooms. Someone else might straighten it up. He was 10 years younger too. But Baby was generally in good condition.  Once he got his OWN home, he valued it and took good care of it.

Even when his surroundings get a little bit messy, I cannot think of any occasions when he let's his own personal care go for days, not when he has the ability to maintain it. Dean had little choice to be dirty all time in Purgatory. I suspect even then, if he had a moment to splash some river water on his face he would but that was an anomaly. He makes sure he always has a toothbrush, he washes his face and the triangles. He's even said before when he had the MoC, he said give me 5 minutes so he could take a "Whore's Bath" . He's personally clean. He does not like grossness and filth. For him to think it's cool that he had siren guts in his hair, NOPE. Even Demon!Dean who let the Impala go, didn't let his own personal care go.

I can get on board with @AwesomO4000notion that maybe Dean accepting filth and wearing filthy underwear is sign that something is off with Dean. But mostly, I don't think that will turn out to be the case.

Sam didn't really fair that much better in that scene because he became Naggy McBitchface and whining about Dean sitting on furniture when Sam himself didn't think the bunker was home. He thinks the Impala is home more than the bunker. So IMO that was just a stupid meta joke at the expense of both Dean and Sam's characterizations. I didn't appreciate it at all.

Edited March 10, 2017 by catrox14
clarifying thoughts.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There is a difference between being a little messy and dirty.

Oh, yeah, I don't think either one of them are dirty.  I was just responding to Dean was always shown to be neater than Sam.  No biggie either way.  Neither one of them would just run around with blood and guts all over them and be like "no big, I don't need a shower."

[DittyDotDot]

25 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh.  Well, I don't remember that at all!  The only time I remember Dean being sloppy when he was affected in some way (the MOC, Demon) etc.

Well, there was also Tall Tales, but that was from Sam's POV so...

Personally, I've never considered Dean a neat freak, but I wouldn't say he was a slob either. Both of them are guys, IMO, who appear clean up after themselves and shower regularly and do their laundry--like most people--but I doubt they would move the refrigerator when mopping the kitchen or scrub the grout in the bathroom tile with a toothbrush like my sister does at least once a week. She's a neat freak and anal retentive about it, if you ask me.

Edited March 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

Sam is:
1) Not taking orders from BMoL. He's worked cases they offered.  
2) Made it clear he doesn't like them. He is still wary.
3) Committed to bailing if 'something feels off'. 

I would love to see your optimism on this SueB, but everything I feared would happen concerning Sam did happen in this episode... and more. Not only was Sam's "I'm in" just as he said  - and to me that still makes no sense - he lied to Dean about it, so we could not only set up Sam to be wrong, but that he had to learn a very special lesson that lying is wrong - as if Sam didn't know that and hadn't just gone through being lied to by Mary himself. But this is par for the course in setting up the "Sam is wrong and a crappy brother that Dean has to put up with and eventually bail out" trope that Carver set up and they can't seem to break, in my opinion.

As for Sam not taking orders, since Sam seems to take each case that the BMoL throw at him without looking into it more. I agree with @catrox14 that that sounds more like working for them than not. Also that the whole Gwen scenario was just a bad rehash of Ronald and planting a red flag on Sam being a lying liar who lies and causes problems by doing so. Again. Some more.

And I'm sick of Sam getting hit with the plotonium all the time. His working with the BMoL makes no sense. His lying made no sense (and was a crappy thing to do). His spouting of "alternative facts" makes no sense. And they can try to distract me with Sam killing the monsters this time, but it's still all the same "Sam is wrong and a liar and poor Dean has to put up with his incompetent, crappy ass" stuff from seasons 8, 9, and part of 10.

As for Sam committing to bailing if "something feels off," I'll believe that when I see it. I think it's just as likely they'll have Sam make excuses and/or not see the "something off" right in front of him even though it's obvious to Dean who explains it to Sam, but Sam still doesn't see it, because that's the way it seems to have been for years now. (Damn, I miss Gamble so much.) I mean, just look at Sam's take on the BMoL and the Alpha vampire incident. Sam somehow sees that as the BMoL killed the Alpha vamp? How the heck is he going to notice "something off" if he couldn't even see how "off" that whole incident was?

And after season 11, I had hopes of things being different, but apparently Sam doesn't get all that much character growth before he's relegated to the burdensome brother again.

*Sigh* I guess I hated this episode after all.

[companionenvy]

I'll be annoyed if Sam winds up being a dupe of the MoL and unable to recognize when something "feels off," but I'm not going to get preemptively upset. While I agree that they didn't need to include ANY "Sam lies to Dean for the umpteenth time" drama in this plotline, if they were going to do it this episode struck me as the most painless way to go about it: Sam's is a pretty minor lie, as far as Winchester lying goes -- he isn't holding secret pow-wow's with Mick and Ketch, he's just allowing the MoL to bring his attention to hunts without telling Dean the source. He comes clean pretty quickly, and Dean has an, IMO, proportional response to the lie; he isn't happy, but doesn't treat it as a massive betrayal (because it isn't). Finally, the two wind up on the same page. Sam acknowledges he doesn't trust the MoL, which means he isn't totally naive, and Dean acknowledges that, as they've learned over the years, good intel is good intel no matter the source -- but they need to proceed with caution. 

I'm more concerned about where the Cas plot is heading. Crowley got an extended moment of awesome tonight; Cas is WAY overdue for a win. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by companionenvy

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As for Sam not taking orders, since Sam seems to take each case that the BMoL throw at him without looking into it more. I agree with @catrox14 that that sounds more like working for them than not.

I agree that it does appear Sam is working FOR the BMoL right now because they're sending them cases, but I think in Sam's mind he's working WITH them. And, it's early days in their "partnership." I personally don't think it will take long for the shine to wear off as soon as they actually work a case with the BMoL. Right now they're still doing what they've always done--hunt monsters--just finding their cases in a new way.

I think for Sam, right now, it's kinda like when you start a new job; especially when you think you're doing something important. It's exciting learning your way around and getting to know your new colleagues--you feel like your part of something special. But, after you get the hang of it you start to see the guy who sits next to you doesn't really give a shit about the work itself, but is just in it for the paycheck and the benefits. And, your boss is not only not brightest bulb in the room, but also not the sharpest knife in the drawer whose ass you keep having to pull out of the fire. Not to mention the board of directors suddenly re-branding the company.

And, for Dean, right now, I think it's more he realizes the new job isn't any better than the old one, but the company is folding and there are bills to pay. So, he's just biding his time and waiting to see what happens. Maybe the current company will end up surviving and, if he doesn't burn his bridges, he might be able to get his old job back if they do.

Edited March 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

But I don't think they were dumb in the way they dealt with her (by not asking about a deal at the start) or the Hell Hound. And they stayed behind 'just in case' -- which means they had SOME concern for her safety.  

I didn't say they were dumb. This is all about the IMO craptastic writing that makes what they did rather nonsensical to me.

To me,  ONCE THERE, under whatever stupid plot reasons, why would they put aside their supernatural investigator instincts especially for a hellhound case on their initial interview. The question for me, is why did Sam want to go? Dean seemed to be okay with going if they told her the truth but he also didn't seem to think they should have gone at all considering he said this is dumb.

1) If Sam went because he was worried about her safety,  why would he go and not tell her the truth from the jump?
2) If Sam went because he didn't believe her and his goal was to genuinely tell her she was safe okay fine. But telling someone it's all in their head, isn't really the way to give someone peace of mind there, Sam.

IMO, it was LUCK that they were there to help her. I went back and watched that scene. She watches them leave, and from her POV we see Dean get in the car first and Dean can be seen leaning over the wheel as though he's putting the keys in the ignition with Sam getting the passenger seat. It switches back to her and she turns away from the window. Cuts to commercial. Scene returns to exactly where Gwen turned away from the window. She stands there for a few moments, and sees claw marks, screams and Ramsey chases her through her house, is hovering over her, but not killing her, which I thought was interesting. Suddenly, Sam and Dean come bursting through the door. I'm not exaggerating this happens all in the span of like 30 seconds to one minute.

IMO given how fast it happened, there is not enough evidence to suggest that the boys purposefully stayed back, just in case. It looked to me like they just happened to not have driven away, YET,  and heard her screaming and ran inside to help. In the past, whenever the boys have purposefully decided to stay behind, there is a shot of them sitting in the car, looking at the house. That didn't happen in this case.

Just for fun, here is this episode's dialogue compared to Nightshifter. I see you, Davy Perez.

Quote

Right.
Gwen, uh, we're here today because we, uh, we know what you told the police, that you feel like something supernatural is after you.
But we've concluded our investigation, and the thing that killed your boyfriend

Dean: Was a bear.
Sam: Was a bear.  Now we found it and put it down. So you're no longer in any kind of danger, okay?

 Gwen: Idon't I-I know what I saw.

Sam: Gwen, when you go through a traumatic experience, sometimes your mind can make things up.
Gwen: Get out.
Sam: Sorry?
Gwen: Get out of my house.
Dean: Okay, calm down. We're just trying to help.
Gwen: I don't need your help.I know what I saw.
Gwen Get out!
Dean[ Sighs ] Okay.

 

Quote

RONALD
Cops said it was some kind of reflected light. Some kind of "camera flare". Okay? Ain't no damn camera flare. They say I'm a post-trauma case. So what? Bank goes and fires me, it don't matter!
(SAM eyes him cautiously as he continues to rant)
The Mandroid is, is still out there. The law won't hunt this thing down -- I'll do it myself. You see, this thing, it, it, it kills the real person, makes it look like a suicide, then it sorta, like, morphs into that person. Cases the job for a while until it knows the take is fat, and then it finds its opening. Now, these robberies, they're, they're grouped together.
(gesturing at a map on the wall)
So I figure the Mandroid is holed up somewhere in the middle, underground, maybe. I dunno, maybe that's where it recharges its, uh, Mandroid batteries.
 

DEAN nods, apparently impressed. SAM stares intently; they both stand.
SAM
Okay. I want you to listen very carefully. Because I'm about to tell you the God's honest truth about all of this. (Dean smiles, waiting to see what Sam says.) There's no such thing as Mandroids. There's nothing evil or inhuman going on out there. Just people. Nothing else, you understand?

DEAN is mostly keeping a straight face, but is clearly startled. He starts to say something.
RONALD
(desperate)
The laser eyes.

SAM
Just a camera flare, Mr. Resnick. See, I know you don't want to believe this. But your friend Juan robbed the bank and that's it.

RONALD
Get out of my house! Now!

SAM
(calmly)
Sure. First things first.

DEAN frowns at SAM in further confusion.

[Macbeth]

Dean being gross - could be a sign of depression.  You give no Fs when you are depressed.  Not that I expect any nuance of that sort from the writers, but from the way JA played it.

Our heroes have no joy in their work.  And I don't know if things off camera that are affecting their performance.  And I am not talking about the twins. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The question for me, is why did Sam want to go? Dean seemed to be okay with going if they told her the truth but he also didn't seem to think they should have gone at all considering he said this is dumb.

I thought they went to glean any useful information they could and confirm the boyfriend did indeed sell his soul--which would mean no case and they could go home. Sam was just advocating they tell her a lie that would put her at peace instead of telling her the truth while trying to worm out of her if the boyfriend had suddenly had some good luck about ten years back. 

[catrox14]

48 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

*Sigh* I guess I hated this episode after all.

You know an episode is pretty much a failure when Dean girls and Sam girls dislike it and can see why it's bad for both brothers.

Cas faired a little better. I liked he's scenes with Kelvin but that went out the window when he decided that going Heaven and not tell anyone he was going. WTF :( .

I think @SueB was correct that this was a Crowley episode. But to me it was so poorly constructed to make it about Crowley that I can't really enjoy it.

Maybe Perez was going for the theme of "EVERYBODY LIES AND IT'S BAD" but gods it was a bad way to go about it, IMO. 

I dunno, maybe he's setting it up for Dean to finally have enough of it from everyone and he just peaces out.

7 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Dean being gross - could be a sign of depression.  You give no Fs when you are depressed.  Not that I expect any nuance of that sort from the writers, but from the way JA played it.

I would be okay with this. I just don't want it to go by the wayside. I don't want them to tease it and not address it in a meaningful way.

[Macbeth]

Crowley had an awesome win this week, and it fell flat.  How could that be??

I love Crowely as a character - I don't get it.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I thought they went to glean any useful information they could and confirm the boyfriend did indeed sell his soul--which would mean no case and they could go home. Sam was just advocating they tell her a lie that would put her at peace instead of telling her the truth while trying to worm out of her if the boyfriend had suddenly had some good luck about ten years back. 

That's what I thought initially but upon rewatch they didn't ask her any of that when they first arrived. They didn't go that direction at all. I put the dialogue in a post upthread. Sam told her they found out what killed her boyfriend and Dean said it was a bear going along with Sam's plan to lie. Gwen objects and Sam says a traumatic experience can make you imagine things. She became angry at being dismissed and she kicked them out. The Hellhound attacks, they come back to save her, and THEN gather info. IMO, nothing about how they went about this investigation makes sense.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

That's what I thought initially but upon rewatch they didn't ask her any of that when they first arrived. They didn't go that direction at all. I put the dialogue in a post upthread. Sam told her they found out what killed her boyfriend and Dean said it was a bear going along with Sam's plan to lie. Gwen objects and Sam says a traumatic experience can make you imagine things. She became angry at being dismissed and she kicked them out. The Hellhound attacks, they come back to save her, and THEN gather info. IMO, nothing about how they went about this investigation makes sense.

I didn't say the plan was successful, but that was my understanding of what the plan was. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I didn't say the plan was successful, but that was my understanding of what the plan was.

My point was more that I find Perez writing a scenario where that would be their plan to begin with doesn't make sense for these experienced hunters.

I'm saying that writing wise, I see no reason why  Sam and Dean would have created such a convoluted mess if their goal was intel gathering.I mean how do they gather intel when they never actually asked her a relevant question about the intel they supposedly wanted gather upon during their first interview. I'm totally confused by the writing. I come away thinking okay this was written solely as a set up for "LYING IS BAD,SAM!".

[ahrtee]

I pretty much agree with all the comments this week...how did that happen?

I saw this as three separate but not equal storylines lumped together, with no connection:  One was the boys (which can also be separated into: Boys w/BMoL (beginning and ending brackets) and Boys w/Hellhound as the only action in the episode); one was Crowley with Lucifer, and one was Cas with angels.

IMO, the Crowley with Lucifer was the only story that worked, and only because of the last five minutes (the rest of it was predictable, boring and just plain stupid).  I have no interest in Cas's story as it's playing out (for various reasons others have already mentioned), and the boys' story was so minor that it could have been lifted wholesale from any other ep (oh, wait, as others pointed out, it was!) 

The only part that has any impact on the current season was the way they're dealing with the BMoL, and I'm still withholding judgment on what they're planning for that, though I liked Dean's qualified acceptance as much as I hated him being made into an idiot at the beginning of the show. (Honestly, my first reaction when they said they'd been nonstop busy and then Sam came up with another hunt immediately was "how stupid do they think he is?  Isn't he the least bit suspicious that all of a sudden Sam is finding hunt after hunt after hunt (and going straight from one hunt to another without a break) *right after he was given the BMoL story about what they were doing and how wonderful their resources were.*  Really?  Even ignoring the impossibility of Sam suddenly coming up with such a specific monster-tracking app out of nowhere.  So either Dean was being completely oblivious, completely stupid, or purposely ignoring the questions to avoid a confrontation.  I'm not happy with any of those possibilities.  

Which leads to my main peeve here: The hellhound storyline, which IMO was so underwhelming (both in story and action), and had so many WTF moments that I actually walked out of the room for the first time ever in the middle of an ep.  

My quibbles with the hellhound (aside from the ones already mentioned):  First of all, the pacing was so bad.  I remember thinking, halfway through the opening scenes with the campers, that they're *already* padding the story in the first five minutes, with the amount of time spent showing them bantering, talking about college and leaving and cuddling together.  We already knew he was dead meat (and, if we'd watched the previews, knew that she wasn't) so it shouldn't take that long to establish that yes, they were a cute couple who were about to separate and that he wanted to marry her.  The rest, about her guilt and the whole "I shouldn't lie" thing came out later.  

So, the hellhound shows up.  If, as someone upthread said (sorry, don't remember who) that she was just wandering in the woods looking for something to kill and came across boyfriend, OK.  And then the girl ran and the dog chased, knocked her down.  *But didn't shred her* even before she got axed.  Jo was shredded the minute she hit the ground.  So, OK, maybe the puppy was just playing till she got hit with the axe and then let the toy escape.

But then she spent all that time (apparently) tracking the girl down, and yet, when she finally gets her cornered, she *walks menacingly over and stands over her* (showing her footprints in the carpet so that we can all see where she is) until Sam and Dean return, break in and chase her away.  Way to (I suppose) build up tension at the expense of logic, which actually is my complaint about the rest of the hellhound story.  

Remember the setup (IIRC):  Dean and Crowley (both of whom could see the dog) were going out into the woods to find her/find her lair.  *Sam was charged with protecting the innocent/endangered girl.*  They even discussed the plan:  they would be in the car.  They could keep moving so the monster couldn't catch them.  He was supposed to keep her safe, not confront.  

So what happened?  The hellhound shows up in the road in front of them.  Sam can see her.  The hound is just sitting at first, glaring at them.  Sam is in a *steel car* that can probably move at 100 mph or more.   But instead of ramming straight through or over the dog to escape, or backing up and taking off in the opposite direction, even if the dog is chasing them, *or even calling Dean or Crowley to say "found it!"* he sits in the car long enough for the dog to jump on the roof and start trying her damnedest to break in.  Still in a car that can maneuver/swerve/go fast/try to throw the damn thing off.  They sit there watching the monster jump all over the car, trying to break in, and then Sam gets *OUT* of the car, leaving the girl alone, to face the dog by himself.  That's a plot device specifically designed for action with no logic behind it.  To make Sam (in this case) look like a BDH, or because running away would have seemed cowardly for these boys.  And that's what pisses me off--when writers go with something that makes no sense just to give the hero a moment.  

I don't particularly mind that it was Sam who got the kill this time, just the way they had to twist things to make it happen that way.  Just plain bad writing, IMO.  

Edited March 10, 2017 by ahrtee
Typo. Because I can't help it.

[DittyDotDot]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My point was more that I find Perez writing a scenario where that would be their plan to begin with doesn't make sense for these experienced hunters.

I'm saying that writing wise, I see no reason why  Sam and Dean would have created such a convoluted mess if their goal was intel gathering.I mean how do they gather intel when they never actually asked her a relevant question about the intel they supposedly wanted gather upon during their first interview. I'm totally confused by the writing. I come away thinking okay this was written solely as a set up for "LYING IS BAD,SAM!".

Although, I don't think it was a particularly brilliant plan, that doesn't change why they went there in the first place, which was the question you asked and what I was attempting to answer. Why they didn't end up asking the questions they wanted to ask was because the plan went horribly wrong and she kicked them out before they got a chance.

So, they could've went with Dean's plan and just told her the truth to begin with and it might've been more successful, but the point of it all was for them to be there at the right time to save Gwen and realize this wasn't a normal Hell hound come to collect a soul.

Yes, the scene has similarities to Nighshifter, as you've mentioned, but their norm is to tell the family a nice lie to placate them while they gain some useful information. I personally think it was a deliberate attempt to write against their norm here by having the norm not work for them, but they still end up where they need to be to make the plot work. I think Perez was just trying to shake things up, but IMO the new writers, Perez in particular, are very inexperienced, so it wasn't successful in comparison to what Edlund did with it.

Edited March 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

break in.  Still in a car that can maneuver/swerve/go fast/try to throw the damn thing off.  They sit there watching the monster jump all over the car, trying to break in, and them Sam gets *OUT* of the car, leaving the girl alone, to face the dog by himself.  That's a plot device specifically designed for action with no logic behind it.  To make Sam (in this case) look like a BDH, or because running away would have seemed cowardly for these boys.  And that's what pisses me off--when writers go with something that makes no sense just to give the hero a moment.  

YOu know I didn't even think about him ramming her. LOL. Gods now that you've said it, it makes the whole thing SO MUCH WORSE>

I mean really Sam, if Baby's gonna get destroyed better you ram the Hellhound than wait for it to attack. Oh sheesh. LOL

[ahrtee]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

YOu know I didn't even think about him ramming her. LOL. Gods now that you've said it, it makes the whole thing SO MUCH WORSE>

I was actually yelling at the screen, "just floor it!"  It's not like they haven't done it before.  

[rue721]

30 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 Sam is in a *steel car* that can probably move at 100 mph or more.   But instead of ramming straight through or over the dog to escape, or backing up and taking off in the opposite direction, even if the dog is chasing them, *or even calling Dean or Crowley to say "found it!"* he sits in the car long enough for the dog to jump on the roof and start trying her damnedest to break in.

 

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I mean really Sam, if Baby's gonna get destroyed better you ram the Hellhound than wait for it to attack. Oh sheesh. LOL

To be fair, I don't think that it would be a good idea in practice to try and ram the Hellhound with the Impala, because the Impala just isn't that big.

This one time, I was driving on the freeway pretty late at night, and this huge truck tire suddenly loomed up on the road out of nowhere -- guess it fell off a truck or something. I didn't really have time to swerve and there was enough traffic around that that would have been dangerous anyway, so I just tried to hit the tire square and keep going. Really not a good plan. The tire fucked up the whole front of my car, it basically ripped off the bumper. I had figured it would be like a pool ball hitting another pool ball, and the car would transfer all the energy to the tire without having it be a big collision. But in reality, the car kept going somewhat over the tire and snagged it and that damaged the car pretty badly. So anyway, I'm just picturing trying to swerve or hit something big and dynamic like a Hellhound in a little car like the Impala and thinking, it probably wouldn't work?

ETA:  "wouldn't work" as in, I don't think the Impala could really take the hit, and so trying to ram the Hellhould might have caused a bad crash at best

ETA2:  no idea how well Baby handles, though. My car wouldn't have been able to swerve too well, but dunno about an old muscle car! Probably handles completely differently, totally out of my wheelhouse lol

Edited March 10, 2017 by rue721