S12.E15: Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell

[MysteryGuest]

It would be nice if Joshua actually shows up again.  The actor doesn't appear to have been in anything since 2015, so maybe he's interested in reprising his role.  I don't want Cas to be duped again. 

[Airmid]

14 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

It would be nice if Joshua actually shows up again.  The actor doesn't appear to have been in anything since 2015, so maybe he's interested in reprising his role.  I don't want Cas to be duped again. 

Neither do I and I really like Joshua. He was kind and while soft spoken wanted what was best.

With how this show goes - eh - I'll hold my hope down and either get what I expected or be pleasantly surprised.

[rue721]

3 hours ago, Airmid said:

Having Mary become the new John in this scenario is depressing.

I don't really know what the alternatives would be. Like John, she's inevitably going to be flawed and a PITA, because she's just a person, not perfect. And like John, she's a somewhat complex and difficult person at that.

3 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

IMO compromise should be a two way or three way street in this case, so what have Mary or Sam compromised on? Nothing as far as I can see, so it does come across as Dean once again going along with something just for the sake of family

I don't know what is going on with Sam. Does he actually respect the BMOL or actively *want* to work with them? Or does he think that it's just more pragmatic to work with them and go along with what they (and Mary) want rather than to be disobedient?

He told Dean he does respect them and want to work with them, and that's *probably* the truth -- but he also said earlier that he would get Dean on board, which IMO introduces the possibility that he's just saying/doing what he has to in order to convince Dean to work with them ("them" meaning Sam and Mary as much as the BMOL).

Something that raises me antennae a bit is that it's just so strange that Sam's pitch to Dean would focus at all on the BMOL helping to kill the Alpha vamp. Sam did that himself, and he did it in a crafty way that made it OBVIOUS that he was helping out the BMOL rather than the other way around (ie, he was literally talking to the Alpha Vamp about abandoning the BMOL to die, but then saved them instead). Does Sam really not realize that he was in another league from the BMOL in that fight, and they weren't impressive at all, or does he actually realize that very well and is just changing the story around in order to make for a better pitch to Dean?

Anyway, my point is that I'm not sure whether Sam is compromising as much as Dean is, or not. I'm not sure how much Sam really wants to be going along with the BMOL and how much he feels like it's just the most pragmatic choice given the circumstances (which is also what Dean is doing IMO). Sam (and the show) is probably playing it straight, but I still have a little bit of doubt (or, I should say, a little bit of hope).

As for Mary...she apparently also thinks that she's compromising, judging by her "since when is life about getting what you want?" But I really don't know what she believes she's compromising on. Just going ahead with life and not living in Heaven Memorex anymore?

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO Mary is trying to assuage her profound guilt over the mess her choices made that ruined Sam's life. I'm still not convinced she has any idea that her choices fucked with Dean's life as much as it has. I think she thinks some of why Dean had no childhood was because of how John raised him. I'm not saying she doesn't love Dean (although...I have pause on that at times).

That's an interesting point. I'm not sure that she does think that Dean had no childhood because of John's choices, though. I don't think that she actually had any idea of what he was talking about when he said that, TBH. 

Also, when Dean said he hadn't had a childhood, I personally thought he was talking about growing up without *Mary,* and saying that he hadn't been mothered as a child, so of course he would not expect her to "mother" him as an adult. I don't think he was necessarily referring to John at that moment, or at least not directly.

But in any case, I wish we would get more insight into how Mary sees John's choices after she died, and what she even thinks about how he raised Sam and Dean. I think that she's liable to write off his parenting as "doing the best he could" -- and I don't think that would even necessarily be wrong. Basically, I would expect her to take John's side in any "disputes" about how he raised the boys. But at the same time, I would like to know what her thoughts actually are, and even what her thoughts are about how the men they are now. I'm not talking about them as hunters, more as people. Like, does she consider them good people? Does she trust them? Does she like them? What about them does she consider good, or trust, or like (if anything)?

2 hours ago, Airmid said:

What we got was a Mary who while conflicted is siding with people who sent someone to torture her son, never helped them even though they could of, and just all around seem like not nice people. Not only that but the show rarely lets us into her head.

I hate that the show doesn't let us into her head more.

I actually don't mind Mary's duplicity that much. It's irritating, but it's a pretty plausible character trait and I can deal with it. What bothers me more is that her choices seem so stupid and dangerous. I like Mary fine, because she's interesting. But I don't know if I have a lot of respect for her, and that is making me a bit impatient with her and her storyline. (Not that she needs to be a badass or ~wise~ or anything, I just wish the show would let us in on what the reasoning behind her decisions is, and I wish the show would make that reasoning at least somewhat smart while they're at it).

2 hours ago, Airmid said:

I want a Mary that Dean can still idolize, can still look up to as to not working with monsters or becoming one herself.

I don't think he needs a mother to idolize. He's grown, he can handle having a flawed human being for a parent. IMO he said that himself right before he told Mary to get out. Not sure if kicking her out right after undermined his point or not, though (lol). 

Anyway, I actually don't mind that Mary's relationship with Sam and Dean is a slow burn, and is taking a while to coalesce, and probably is never going to be phenomenal. That's to be expected IMO -- she didn't raise them. There's always going to be a distance there.

What I am afraid of is that they'll kill her off before her relationship with them actually gets interesting. I am 100% fine with her relationship with them being not-great or even bad, but I want the chance to see it evolve over time.

And I 1000000000% don't want to see Sam and Dean deal with her death (again). That's just awful. Hear that show? Don't bring back orphans' parents just to kill them again, I don't care if the orphans in question are 5 y/o or 50.

[Airmid]

53 minutes ago, rue721 said:

ut in any case, I wish we would get more insight into how Mary sees John's choices after she died, and what she even thinks about how he raised Sam and Dean. I think that she's liable to write off his parenting as "doing the best he could" -- and I don't think that would even necessarily be wrong. Basically, I would expect her to take John's side in any "disputes" about how he raised the boys. But at the same time, I would like to know what her thoughts actually are, and even what her thoughts are about how the men they are now. I'm not talking about them as hunters, more as people. Like, does she consider them good people? Does she trust them? Does she like them? What about them does she consider good, or trust, or like (if anything)?

I hate that the show doesn't let us into her head more.

I actually don't mind Mary's duplicity that much. It's irritating, but it's a pretty plausible character trait and I can deal with it. What bothers me more is that her choices seem so stupid and dangerous. I like Mary fine, because she's interesting. But I don't know if I have a lot of respect for her, and that is making me a bit impatient with her and her storyline. (Not that she needs to be a badass or ~wise~ or anything, I just wish the show would let us in on what the reasoning behind her decisions is, and I wish the show would make that reasoning at least somewhat smart while they're at it).

I wouldn't mind Mary's duplicity if they actually gave a reason for her doing what she's doing. Instead she's off hunting instead, like I mentioned, exhausting all her resources to find her sons. Which means both the bunker and the angel milling around. I don't have a problem with her going on a hunt for someone in need but her sons are in need. What the hell was she doing? Blaming Cas? Come on now, that gets old and she does nothing. I don't care if she was from centuries ago or yesterday, surely she must recognize that there is information in front of her that can find her kids without BMOL even if she has to shake Cas into being useful and out of his funk.

 

57 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I don't think he needs a mother to idolize. He's grown, he can handle having a flawed human being for a parent. IMO he said that himself right before he told Mary to get out. Not sure if kicking her out right after undermined his point or not, though (lol). 

Anyway, I actually don't mind that Mary's relationship with Sam and Dean is a slow burn, and is taking a while to coalesce, and probably is never going to be phenomenal. That's to be expected IMO -- she didn't raise them. There's always going to be a distance there.

What I am afraid of is that they'll kill her off before her relationship with them actually gets interesting. I am 100% fine with her relationship with them being not-great or even bad, but I want the chance to see it evolve over time.

And I 1000000000% don't want to see Sam and Dean deal with her death (again). That's just awful. Hear that show? Don't bring back orphans' parents just to kill them again, I don't care if the orphans in question are 5 y/o or 50.

Dean's heaven consisted of Sam, his mother giving him pie and Zach screwing with it. I can't help but think that through John he has placed Mary on a pedestal which would be interesting to explore. But no, I don't think Dean needs the virgin as his mom. He just wants his mom. But he's not getting that either because she ran away from them. Which is essentially what the BMOL is for her.

Her having problems adjusting? Sure, no worries. Her going off hand in hand into the sunset with people that tortured her sons, left them to rot through how many world ending encounters and are just now showing up? Not so much. It makes her look stupid not to mention cold, and her children who want any relationship with her they can sink into foolish. And again that's bad writing, not the people on screen.

And yeah, no orphans. I don't care what age these boys need not to have a parent die on them again. I will allow for a blaze of glory while her soul is brought back to heaven to be with John and rest in eternal peace - but not really seeing the show doing that.

[ILoveReading]

20 hours ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: For me it isn't character growth for Dean to have swallow his anger at being lied to. It's not even character growth for Dean to say" you're  right Sam." IMO what would have character growth would be Dean saying "You drank the Kool aid two weeks ago and you didn't tell me. Okay you and Mom do your thing. I'm not doing it.  We're still family but I'm not going along with this. If you two are in a pickle call me, I'll help. But  I'm not going to work side by side with the ass clowns that tortured you ".

That doesn't take away Sams choice and it doesn't take away Deans prerogative to not join. IMO Dean is going along with this begrudgingly which creates just as much conflict as if he didn't join up.

I agree here.  Dean did what he's done since childhood. 

What makes matters worse is that Sam had a front row seat to how upset and angry Dean got.  How much Mary lying to them him hurt.  Then Sam did the exact same thing for weeks.  What made Sam confess wasn't that he knew he was hurting Dean it was tears and guilt of a complete stranger that finally broke through. Why wasn't the fact that Sam knew lying would hurt his brother enough?  If they hadn't taken that case would Sam have come clean when he did? Sam said himself that secrets ruin relationships.   This is another reason why I feel like this ep further invalidated Dean's feelings.

I don't think it was character growth.  The read I got off Jensen in that last scene was that Dean was resigned to the situation.   I thought he caved way to quick, because there are counter arguments about why they shouldn't.  He didn't like it, he can't change it because he knows if he does so he'll go along and try to keep everyone safe.  Its the Ruby situation all over again. 

Did Dean really have a choice in this situation?  I'm not saying he has a gun to his head or that he can refuse, but he's kind of in a no-win situation.  If he refuses, he's being stubborn and refusing to help because the cases are legit and they are saving people.  If he wants to hunt with Sam, then he has to go along.  If he agrees he's working with people he doesn't want to work with and doesn't trust. 

So Dean is doing what Dean does.   Trying to make the best of a bad situation.  That's 100% Dean and not something we haven't seen Dean do multiple times.

That's why I wish the show would get out of the mindset that the brothers have to be attached at the hip.  If they'd be willing to separate them for a few eps (im not talking about multiple episodes in a row). We could two hunts in one ep.  The eps that they aren't separated about can get around by having them found the exact same hunt.  Dean's more than capable of finding his own. That way Dean's sticks to his principals, Sam can do his thing, and it could allow them to introduce to new hunters as Dean and Sam could take multiple hunting partners  (RIP Wally).  Neither brother is right or wrong in this scenario.   

I also feel like the Impala was once again a metaphor for Dean.  Dented and broken

Edited March 12, 2017 by ILoveReading

[DittyDotDot]

5 hours ago, Airmid said:

Dean's heaven consisted of Sam, his mother giving him pie and Zach screwing with it. I can't help but think that through John he has placed Mary on a pedestal which would be interesting to explore.

I think that's exactly what they have been doing--deconstructing the myth of Mary. In specific, they've been deconstructing Dean's myth of Mary, IMO. 

[SueB]

18 hours ago, Airmid said:

Hey all, I've lurked for a long time and finally got around to making an account. Sadly SueB it's because I disagree a lot with this though I do always like your thoughts!

So then, I went back and rewatched this episode and paid a lot attention to the scene in question. I don't really feel at all that Sam is committed to bailing. In fact it just feels like he was agreeing so that Dean wouldn't be angry. I would have felt a lot more commitment on Sam's part if after Dean's statement about their questionable allies he talked about how they wouldn't just bail but instead rescue their mom and take them down if it really was that questionable.

It's probably just me. Along with yelling "Shoot her! Shoooot Her!" complete with accent during the scene where the hound is first attacking them in the Impala. Apparently need more things to fill my Saturdays... 

Welcome to posting!  I'm sorry I was MIA (Missing in Action) yesterday.  I'll post my Bridal Shower exploits in Small Talk later -- three ring circus w/ hydrangeas, failed poured fondant, and making the bride wait a half hour.

I'm THRILLED you came out of de-lurking!  And I can certainly understand the interpretation that Sam won't bail.  I think we've seen the past BMoL crimes (dead soldiers, dead Sam-substitute girl) are sufficient to get him to bail.  But... this is a wait-n-see for sure. 

More posting from me later today.  Just wanted to say "Hello". 

[catrox14]

All the times Dean was disgusted by gross things. Spoilers for all seasons . Perez needs to watch this.

Bonus: Dean getting cleaned up in various places.

Edited March 12, 2017 by catrox14

[Airmid]

I can fanwank that Sam has time telling issues and maybe the boys interrupted a monthly underground poker match between monsters and just murdered them all at once and it hadn't been days. Okay, whatever. What makes no sense is that unless it was happening in their driveway Dean had been like that for days. Had ridden around in his beloved car, smearing goo on her seats. Then they make Dean's attachment to Baby a big deal later on, but at the start he is all covered in monster bits. Who does that, outside of maybe arguably Chuck after Raphael popped Cas like an over filled blood balloon.*

Show, maintaining internal cohesion is a good thing.

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think that's exactly what they have been doing--deconstructing the myth of Mary. In specific, they've been deconstructing Dean's myth of Mary, IMO. 

I kind of wish they wouldn't, they aren't very good at it. *side eyes Lucifer* At all.

* EDIT - I jut realized, if Chuck was actually Guck at that point then how creepy is it that he had part of his kid still plastered on him when the Winchesters finally made it back to him? Just, eewwww.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Airmid

[SueB]

47 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

All the times Dean was disgusted by gross things. Spoilers for all seasons . Perez needs to watch this.

Bonus: Dean getting cleaned up in various places.

 

I sent a tweet to Perez.  Hopefully he'll watch.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Airmid said:

think that's exactly what they have been doing--deconstructing the myth of Mary. In specific, they've been deconstructing Dean's myth of Mary, IMO. 

9 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I kind of wish they wouldn't, they aren't very good at it. *side eyes Lucifer* At all.

8 minutes ago, Airmid said:

talong my reply to the All  seasons thread.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm going to assume that the hunt that ended in so much monster goo being splattered all over Dean was the last hunt they did, and not the first.  I can't imagine him spending 4 days like that, but I'll concede to a few hours in the car.  He's certainly been covered in monster blood before, but normally, the very next scene shows that he's cleaned up.  That's the issue.  It's bad enough to have to drive home with all that shit all over you, but when you get home, you would head immediately to a hot shower.  You wouldn't sit at the same table you eat at and start flinging pieces of monster flesh all over the room.  I get that they do this stuff for humor, and I also get that a lot of these "jokes" are Jensen ad-libbing, but sometimes someone needs to say no.

I think that may have ultimately been the biggest disconnect for me with this episode.  I couldn't tell if they were going for humor or drama.  After the last episode, and with the BMOL deal and all of the lying, I was in a pretty serious mood, so maybe I just wasn't receptive to the episode starting out with that type of humor.  I wanted an answer to whether Sam had really agreed to work with the BMOL, or whether there was possibly a double cross in the works.  Sadly, there wasn't.

[FrankOFoley]

22 hours ago, rue721 said:

Sole (meaning "only") in French is seul or seulement. Sol means the ground.

Although "ground angel" is kind of even more appropriate for Cas, since he's earthbound?

I think he was meant to be using the name because it's Beyoncé's sister, though -- apparently, Cas is kinda obsessed w Beyoncé ;)

Thanks for pointing this out to me. I know that seul/e is the direct translation for "sole" but what I was thinking is that the "sol" part of Solange came from old french/latin and meant sole, so I checked and actually Solange is the name of a 9th century french saint and the "sol" part is from latin "solemnia", but I like your idea that Castiel is a ground angel!

[Airmid]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm going to assume that the hunt that ended in so much monster goo being splattered all over Dean was the last hunt they did, and not the first.  I can't imagine him spending 4 days like that, but I'll concede to a few hours in the car.  He's certainly been covered in monster blood before, but normally, the very next scene shows that he's cleaned up.  That's the issue.  It's bad enough to have to drive home with all that shit all over you, but when you get home, you would head immediately to a hot shower.  You wouldn't sit at the same table you eat at and start flinging pieces of monster flesh all over the room.  I get that they do this stuff for humor, and I also get that a lot of these "jokes" are Jensen ad-libbing, but sometimes someone needs to say no.

I still couldn't buy it just due to the fact that Dean was covered in goo with bits of meat stuck in his hair and that would stick out. They wouldn't be able to stop for gas etc like that even barring someone just happening to look over while they were driving along and seeing that mess. I kind of always figured that the boys wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves. They travel with clothes and probably had water bottles. Not the best but it's cleaner.

Plus, it seems like Dean hadn't changed his clothes - remember the whole boxer thing? Kind of makes it sounds like he was skipping around collecting more splatter over a four day period. Not to mention Sam wasn't dirty, like at all. So either he brought his handy dandy pocket poncho to the ganking or they had time in there to at least pull on a new shirt and Dean didn't chose to.

I think it would have went over better if they had just had Dean complaining about how pristine Sam still was with all the hunting they had been doing and/or complaining about how the Siren apparently exploded on him. There were ways to definitely make it funny and a believable part. Kind of like with Chuck back in season five where it's so gross and darkly funny when he pulls out a tooth from his hair that one doesn't try to reconcile the time difference between Cas' death and that moment.

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

 I wanted an answer to whether Sam had really agreed to work with the BMOL, or whether there was possibly a double cross in the works.  Sadly, there wasn't.

I think we did get one.  It seems like he bought what they were selling.  Because if he's working a double cross it makes no sense why he wouldn't tell Dean about it right away.  Especially when he saw how much Mary doing that upset his brother.  Why lie about it for weeks?

If Sam said to Dean, "These guys are legends in their own minds and their going to get mom killed, and I can't let that happen.  We need to send them back where they came from."  (Maybe not those exact words, but something similar.)  Dean probably would have been on board.

It is still possible we'll get a flashback where Sam and Dean discuss this, but seeing how hurt Dean was at Sam doing the same things their mother did, it also doesn't make sense not to tell him then and there.  It makes Sam look clueless to his brothers emotions.

[MysteryGuest]

35 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think we did get one.  It seems like he bought what they were selling. 

I meant a double cross in that Sam really didn't plan to work with the BMOL, and that he and Dean would work to find a way to bring them down.  That's what I wanted, but I didn't get that.  As for whether Sam double-crossed Dean, I will cut him some slack since he did come clean and apologized for lying to him.  I would have preferred that the writers not have him lie to begin with, but evidently they're not clever enough to figure out a way for him not to do that.  

[Wynne88]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

 

If Sam said to Dean, "These guys are legends in their own minds and their going to get mom killed, and I can't let that happen.  We need to send them back where they came from." 

I would have loved this.  Instead they made Sam both stupid and shallow, and Dean clueless for buying the computer story.  On second viewing, I still hate this episode for so many reasons.  The bit at the end with Crowley and Lucifer is the only part that didn't suck, in my opinion.

[SueB]

17 hours ago, rue721 said:

I don't really know what the alternatives would be. Like John, she's inevitably going to be flawed and a PITA, because she's just a person, not perfect. And like John, she's a somewhat complex and difficult person at that.

I don't know what is going on with Sam. Does he actually respect the BMOL or actively *want* to work with them? Or does he think that it's just more pragmatic to work with them and go along with what they (and Mary) want rather than to be disobedient?

He told Dean he does respect them and want to work with them, and that's *probably* the truth -- but he also said earlier that he would get Dean on board, which IMO introduces the possibility that he's just saying/doing what he has to in order to convince Dean to work with them ("them" meaning Sam and Mary as much as the BMOL).

Something that raises me antennae a bit is that it's just so strange that Sam's pitch to Dean would focus at all on the BMOL helping to kill the Alpha vamp. Sam did that himself, and he did it in a crafty way that made it OBVIOUS that he was helping out the BMOL rather than the other way around (ie, he was literally talking to the Alpha Vamp about abandoning the BMOL to die, but then saved them instead). Does Sam really not realize that he was in another league from the BMOL in that fight, and they weren't impressive at all, or does he actually realize that very well and is just changing the story around in order to make for a better pitch to Dean?

Anyway, my point is that I'm not sure whether Sam is compromising as much as Dean is, or not. I'm not sure how much Sam really wants to be going along with the BMOL and how much he feels like it's just the most pragmatic choice given the circumstances (which is also what Dean is doing IMO). Sam (and the show) is probably playing it straight, but I still have a little bit of doubt (or, I should say, a little bit of hope).

As for Mary...she apparently also thinks that she's compromising, judging by her "since when is life about getting what you want?" But I really don't know what she believes she's compromising on. Just going ahead with life and not living in Heaven Memorex anymore?

That's an interesting point. I'm not sure that she does think that Dean had no childhood because of John's choices, though. I don't think that she actually had any idea of what he was talking about when he said that, TBH. 

Also, when Dean said he hadn't had a childhood, I personally thought he was talking about growing up without *Mary,* and saying that he hadn't been mothered as a child, so of course he would not expect her to "mother" him as an adult. I don't think he was necessarily referring to John at that moment, or at least not directly.

But in any case, I wish we would get more insight into how Mary sees John's choices after she died, and what she even thinks about how he raised Sam and Dean. I think that she's liable to write off his parenting as "doing the best he could" -- and I don't think that would even necessarily be wrong. Basically, I would expect her to take John's side in any "disputes" about how he raised the boys. But at the same time, I would like to know what her thoughts actually are, and even what her thoughts are about how the men they are now. I'm not talking about them as hunters, more as people. Like, does she consider them good people? Does she trust them? Does she like them? What about them does she consider good, or trust, or like (if anything)?

I hate that the show doesn't let us into her head more.

I actually don't mind Mary's duplicity that much. It's irritating, but it's a pretty plausible character trait and I can deal with it. What bothers me more is that her choices seem so stupid and dangerous. I like Mary fine, because she's interesting. But I don't know if I have a lot of respect for her, and that is making me a bit impatient with her and her storyline. (Not that she needs to be a badass or ~wise~ or anything, I just wish the show would let us in on what the reasoning behind her decisions is, and I wish the show would make that reasoning at least somewhat smart while they're at it).

I don't think he needs a mother to idolize. He's grown, he can handle having a flawed human being for a parent. IMO he said that himself right before he told Mary to get out. Not sure if kicking her out right after undermined his point or not, though (lol). 

Anyway, I actually don't mind that Mary's relationship with Sam and Dean is a slow burn, and is taking a while to coalesce, and probably is never going to be phenomenal. That's to be expected IMO -- she didn't raise them. There's always going to be a distance there.

What I am afraid of is that they'll kill her off before her relationship with them actually gets interesting. I am 100% fine with her relationship with them being not-great or even bad, but I want the chance to see it evolve over time.

And I 1000000000% don't want to see Sam and Dean deal with her death (again). That's just awful. Hear that show? Don't bring back orphans' parents just to kill them again, I don't care if the orphans in question are 5 y/o or 50.

Good points all.  I wanted to comment on the stuff I've emphasized.

- Sam didn't say he respects the BMoL. He said "They get results. I don't like them either but... but if... if we can save people, then.." So, while I DO think they are somewhat 'playing it straight', I think they are very wary.  As you said, it's a pragmatic choice.  And I truly believe that if and/or when they find out the things we the audience knows, that is going to change the relationship.

- Mary being opaque to the audience is very S4 Sam.  There's more there to be revealed, I suspect.

- I'm good with the slow burn, so long as there is SOME closure before she goes away or dies.  Which is where I think you are.  And I think Dabb & company know that.  It's possible Mary is a one-season wonder but there's still time in the 8 episodes left to make an attempt at resolution.  Although, I think it'll be messy if they end her presence on the show this season. If it stretches longer, she could be more Bobby-like in amount of time we see her.  That, IMO, would work. 

ETA:  On the back-to-back hunting.  Since Dean ONLY packed two pairs of underwear, I'm guessing it was a two day trip and it got extended to four.  I don't think he went into the trip planning to flip his drawers.  Second, they've clearly been back to the bunker during the two weeks or Sam would know his underwear count due to laundry.  Since Dean was 'disturbed' he knew the underwear count, the they didn't do laundry.  Of course, I can see laundry being a single load for Sam and a single load for Dean. But I'm not sure they are THAT fussy.

Which brings me to ghoul, siren, and wraith.  What if it was a monster-mash?  They did a hunt and were diverted to a location that had  more than one thing in the immediate vicinity -- like a monster version of supply store.  Which is why Dean was actively covered in ick.  Yes, that would have been probably more interesting than a single Hell Hound but 1) expensive and 2) not the point of the episode.  It wasn't just about hunting (as I said earlier) but proving that they work with people they don't like and still have a successful hunt.  The litany of multiple kills, IMO, was to suggest that they have been both extremely busy and extremely successful.  This is a contributing factor to Deans' "fine" (he'll work with them). 

Edited March 12, 2017 by SueB

[rue721]

I'm sitting here trying to finally watch this episode from start to finish, and IMO the dialogue is PAINFULLY bad. Really, really clunky and way too goofy.

Also, why is Dean suddenly a buffoon? I'm only like halfway through and there have already been 2-3 jokes about how stupid he is. And the jokes are framed as though it's been ~long established~ that Dean is an idiotic dumbass. Which uh. He hasn't been? LOL weird.

Also, I have already put on my poncho, so go ahead and launch the rotten tomatoes:  I think Jensen's acting in this is not up to his usual standard. His mind is clearly elsewhere. Understandable, and in an ideal world he would have some paternity leave -- but it still isn't that enjoyable to watch.

To be fair, I think the acting in this episode is below the show's usual standard in general. The girl who played Gwen is clearly trying, but she needed better direction or something. She keeps gritting her teeth to show how ~intensely~ she's feeling things, and it feels cheesy IMO. Not that the acting is so horrible, but it's usually one of the show's high points. I blame the director for at least some of that. Seems like she didn't take the reins strongly enough this time around.

Relieved to see that Jared is looking more like his usual self, though. He has looked so shaky and fragile to me in the previous couple episodes, like he was in pretty desperate need of a good night's sleep and a hot meal lol. Still a little pale and sluggish maybe, but better.

19 minutes ago, SueB said:

Sam didn't say he respects the BMoL. He said "They get results. I don't like them either but... but if... if we can save people, then.." So, while I DO think they are somewhat 'playing it straight', I think they are very wary.  As you said, it's a pragmatic choice.  And I truly believe that if and/or when they find out the things we the audience knows, that is going to change the relationship.

I heard him saying that they "get results" as him saying he respects them. Doesn't LIKE them, but respects them. That's kind of "six of one, half a dozen of the other," though (don't mean to quibble).

What makes me wonder if he actually means even that, though, is that it seems strange to me that his example of the BMOL getting results is killing the Alpha Vamp -- which, really, Sam did himself, with a quasi-assist from Mary in the form of her having previously stolen the Colt.

But that's probably a writing oversight instead of an actual plot point? Maybe Perez wrote this without watching the previous episode, and assumed that the Alpha Vamp fight had gone a bit differently (with a more impressive showing from the BMOL). ;)

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

To be fair, I think the acting in this episode is below the show's usual standard in general. The girl who played Gwen is clearly trying, but she needed better direction or something. She keeps gritting her teeth to show how ~intensely~ she's feeling things, and it feels cheesy IMO. Not that the acting is so horrible, but it's usually one of the show's high points. I blame the director for at least some of that. Seems like she didn't take the reins strongly enough this time around.

I agree. Granted, the writing isn't anything to write home about, but a strong director can usually take a lacking script and make something out of it. I know Jared and Jensen said they like working with this director, but I'm not impressed based on the three episodes she's directed. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

Maybe Perez wrote this without watching the previous episode, and assumed that the Alpha Vamp fight had gone a bit differently (with a more impressive showing from the BMOL). ;)

Considering the fact that he's barely scratched the surface with previous episodes as a whole he probably didn't!

[MysteryGuest]

35 minutes ago, rue721 said:

To be fair, I think the acting in this episode is below the show's usual standard in general.

Sadly, I think this is just going to continue.  With the writing being sub par, and Jensen and Jared being less involved in the storylines, it's only going to get worse, IMO.  I'm not sure how much input the J's have at this point in the series, but I do wonder if they're saying anything at all to the show runners.  Or do they all realize that the show is on it's last legs, and they're just going to ride it out until the end? They still get their paychecks, they're getting more time off than ever, they have families to worry about, maybe they really don't care anymore.  I know they claim that they're still interested and challenged, but I just don't really see how that's possible.  

Obviously, the show has to end sometime.  I had hopes that they could sort of re-invent themselves once God left town, but they don't seem capable or interested in doing that.  I just don't see how any of them can compare these episodes to the ones they used to do and think they measure up in any way.  It's very depressing.

Edited March 12, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[mertensia]

If I were Dean I'd be agreeing at least partially because he has to be wondering if Sam and Mary's minds have been tampered with. They met the BMoL and then presto! began working with them. I'd be suspicious.

[Myrelle]

17 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Obviously, the show has to end sometime.  I had hopes that they could sort of re-invent themselves once God left town, but they don't seem capable or interested in doing that.  I just don't see how any of them can compare these episodes to the ones they used to do and think they measure up in any way.  It's very depressing.

IA. They can still reinvent themselves though. I'm just not sure that they can do that under Dabb and Singer's leadership. The writing staff was overhauled this season, but IMO, the biggest problem on this show lies with the short-sightedness and narrow vision within the leadership of the writing staff that is so averse and reluctant to implement any change to the "blueprint" and even as they watch their ratings dwindle each week; and it's been the biggest problem(again IMO) since the second half of S5-although, I will say they did succeed at this somewhat in S9B-but that was again because of a bold move on the leadership's part. But the one thing that they will have to get by/past, IMO, is being slaves to certain loud segments of this fandom who are adamantly opposed to change of any kind/sort/type on this show. Shoot, they could even make it work while hanging on to the Brits-but not Mary and not Lucifer. Not IMO, anyway.

[Airmid]

I thought about this episode when I was in a different thread and something finally bothered me (well to a point compared to other parts) and I didn't know if it had been mentioned yet, I skimmed a couple of pages and didn't see it. Apologies if it's been talked about and I'm blind.

When the hellhound attacks her in her apartment, we know it's right over her due to marks on the carpet.

Question: How did the boys know?

They bust in and Dean immediately fires. They aren't wearing the glasses (I checked) there's no time for them to take into account where it is in that current second and Dean fires randomly towards a civilian on the floor to hit something he has no way of seeing. And no one comments on this, not even Sam to say 'Hey Dude, maybe you should have tried like jumping, or kicking or not discharging a weapon with a civilian directly in the way'.

Is it me, or is that reckless? Maybe it's just a poorly done scene and there's nothing in there but it struck me as weird.

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Question: How did the boys know?

They bust in and Dean immediately fires. They aren't wearing the glasses (I checked) there's no time for them to take into account where it is in that current second and Dean fires randomly towards a civilian on the floor to hit something he has no way of seeing. And no one comments on this, not even Sam to say 'Hey Dude, maybe you should have tried like jumping, or kicking or not discharging a weapon with a civilian directly in the way'.

I'm going to say that they figured the thing was hovering over her, based on her reactions, and Dean's a crack shot, so he wouldn't hit the girl by mistake.  At least that's how it played out in my head.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm going to say that they figured the thing was hovering over her, based on her reactions, and Dean's a crack shot, so he wouldn't hit the girl by mistake.  At least that's how it played out in my head.

My head!canon has long been that Dean can hear hellhounds because he's the only person who has been ripped apart by Hellhounds and came back. I've always thought that because he seems to always look towards hellhounds before the victim mentions them. So here I decided my head!canon stands.  That's my story and I"m sticking to it. (No I have no explanation why he didn't hear Ramsey when they were in the house the first time).

I also think in this case, they just heard her screaming and took a chance at firing in that direction.

[Airmid]

13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm going to say that they figured the thing was hovering over her, based on her reactions, and Dean's a crack shot, so he wouldn't hit the girl by mistake.  At least that's how it played out in my head.

If he could see it, even some vague outline I'd be like, meh whatev's Dean's good with weapons. But not having a way to see if it moved? Ugh, that's really careless.

It would have felt better to just have him with a knife looking for it and trying to stab the hound. Would have made more sense to me. Though, it's probably just a careless scene, just thought it was weird.

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My head!canon has long been that Dean can hear hellhounds because he's the only person who has been ripped apart by Hellhounds and came back. I've always thought that because he seems to always look towards hellhounds before the victim mentions them. So here I decided my head!canon stands.  That's my story and I"m sticking to it. (No I have no explanation why he didn't hear Ramsey when they were in the house the first time).

I also think in this case, they just heard her screaming and took a chance at firing in that direction.

I always thought he could still hear them too but the show's been pretty inconsistent about whether or not that's a thing but it's been my thought. I'll just enter my zen state and assume he didn't hear her when they were originally in the house because he blocks it out as part of a PTSD response.

[DittyDotDot]

26 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I thought about this episode when I was in a different thread and something finally bothered me (well to a point compared to other parts) and I didn't know if it had been mentioned yet, I skimmed a couple of pages and didn't see it. Apologies if it's been talked about and I'm blind.

When the hellhound attacks her in her apartment, we know it's right over her due to marks on the carpet.

Question: How did the boys know?

They bust in and Dean immediately fires. They aren't wearing the glasses (I checked) there's no time for them to take into account where it is in that current second and Dean fires randomly towards a civilian on the floor to hit something he has no way of seeing. And no one comments on this, not even Sam to say 'Hey Dude, maybe you should have tried like jumping, or kicking or not discharging a weapon with a civilian directly in the way'.

Is it me, or is that reckless? Maybe it's just a poorly done scene and there's nothing in there but it struck me as weird.

Since they knew it was a hellhound and could see the marks on the floor and the girl's reaction--plus, anyone can hear hellhounds, they just can't see them--I'd guess Dean had a pretty good shot at knowing where to shoot and not get the girl.

But, you're right, it is kinda reckless. This is why shoot outs with law enforcement don't happen nearly as often as TV would like us to believe. I think it's just one of those things on TV you just have to go with, I guess?

2 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I always thought he could still hear them too but the show's been pretty inconsistent about whether or not that's a thing but it's been my thought. I'll just enter my zen state and assume he didn't hear her when they were originally in the house because he blocks it out as part of a PTSD response.

I was under the impression anyone and everyone could hear them, but only the people whose contracts were up could see them.

Edited March 14, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I was under the impression anyone and everyone could hear them, but only the people whose contracts were up could see them.

I think it depends on the episode.  In Crossroad Blues, Dr. Perlman's maid said that she had "never even heard it" referring to the dog the doctor had been complaining about and thought she might have been imagining it, and when Sam was protecting Evan, he kept having to ask if he still heard it.  I'm not entirely sure about this, but in No Rest for the Wicked, I think a hell hound growled and DEan said hell hound, so apparently Sam hadn't heard it, but I'm have the sequence wrong, he might have said hell hound and then it growled.  In King of the Damned, the both clearly heard the hell hound in the graveyard.  In Trial and Error everyone seemed able to hear them, unless there really were wolves around at the same time.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think it depends on the episode.  In Crossroad Blues, Dr. Perlman's maid said that she had "never even heard it" referring to the dog the doctor had been complaining about and thought she might have been imagining it, and when Sam was protecting Evan, he kept having to ask if he still heard it.  I'm not entirely sure about this, but in No Rest for the Wicked, I think a hell hound growled and DEan said hell hound, so apparently Sam hadn't heard it, but I'm have the sequence wrong, he might have said hell hound and then it growled.  In King of the Damned, the both clearly heard the hell hound in the graveyard.  In Trial and Error everyone seemed able to hear them, unless there really were wolves around at the same time.

And then in Beyond The Mat it seemed only Dean and Gunnar heard them despite Sam being there.

Quote

Dean: Yeah, I’m good. I’m good.

Sam and Dean turn to face Gunnar, as he hears the sound of dogs howling. He looks scared.

Sam: What?

Dean: Hellhounds.

Gunnar: I always wondered what they’d sound like.

The hellhounds continue to growl in the distance. Dean tries to hand Gunnar his gun.

[DittyDotDot]

22 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think it depends on the episode.  In Crossroad Blues, Dr. Perlman's maid said that she had "never even heard it" referring to the dog the doctor had been complaining about and thought she might have been imagining it, and when Sam was protecting Evan, he kept having to ask if he still heard it.  I'm not entirely sure about this, but in No Rest for the Wicked, I think a hell hound growled and DEan said hell hound, so apparently Sam hadn't heard it, but I'm have the sequence wrong, he might have said hell hound and then it growled.  In King of the Damned, the both clearly heard the hell hound in the graveyard.  In Trial and Error everyone seemed able to hear them, unless there really were wolves around at the same time.

I thought everyone could hear the "black dog" in Crossroad Blues, it's just that no one could see it? I should re-watch it...for science...not because I happen to really like that episode or anything. ;)

Anyway, yeah, I was mostly thinking of how in The Devil You Know, both Sam and Dean seemed to hear the hellhounds and pretty much every episode since then.

[auntvi]

Silly, but did anyone else have a problem with the bitch hellhound being named Ramsey? Every time some one said "Ramsey ......... she" I twitched just a little bit as my brain tells me it's the wrong pronoun.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, auntvi said:

Silly, but did anyone else have a problem with the bitch hellhound being named Ramsey? Every time some one said "Ramsey ......... she" I twitched just a little bit as my brain tells me it's the wrong pronoun.

I didn't. I just kept thinking of Ramsey from GoT and direwolves.

[Geordiegirl1967]

So I haven't posted my views here yet on this episode because I have only seen it once and I need at least one more viewing to make my mind up (though my first impression was...meh...ok but nothing to write home about).

I will post some more cogent (well I'll try) thoughts in a bit, but in the meanwhile I did just want to address one aspect that I have seen commented on negatively here and elsewhere that I just don't get. It is the 'Dean is a neat freak' argument.

I didn't love the scene where Dean is covered in goop and Sam is clean as a whistle. However I don't know where the idea that Dean is the tidy one of the 2 came from. Some examples;

- Tall Tales - it is Dean eating food on the bed, making a mess, leaving rank leftovers in the fridge  etc

- in Mystery Spot it is Dean who leaves the toothpaste tube in a mess etc and it is Sam who, when left on his own, has everything extremely neat and tidy

- when Sam is hunting on his own (can't recall when this was) the boot of the Impala is much more organised

- Dean's table manners are notoriously and frequently dubious. How many times have we seen him stuff his mouth too full of food? 

- in Unforgiven you see him sniff his clothes to see if they are clean and shrug

- in an ep from s11 he comes into the kitchen badly hung over. Sam has to tell him to get a shower.

I know there has been the odd contradictory example eg how tidy his bunker room was, but overall Dean has been shown to be pretty lax in the housekeeping department and Sam has much more been the one with the more neat freak tendencies.

I don't think Dean skimps on personal hygiene but he has generally been depicted as not the most fastidious so didn't find that scene at all ooc.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[MysteryGuest]

50 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I didn't love the scene where Dean is covered in goop and Sam is clean as a whistle. However I don't know where the idea that Dean is the tidy one of the 2 came from. Some examples;

- Tall Tales - it is Dean eating food on the bed, making a mess, leaving rank leftovers in the fridge  etc

- in Mystery Spot it is Dean who leaves the toothpaste tube in a mess etc and it is Sam who, when left on his own, has everything extremely neat and tidy

- when Sam is hunting on his own (can't recall when this was) the boot of the Impala is much more organised

- Dean's table manners are notoriously and frequently dubious. How many times have we seen him stuff his mouth too full of food? 

- in Unforgiven you see him sniff his clothes to see if they are clean and shrug

- in an ep from s11 he comes into the kitchen badly hung over. Sam has to tell him to get a shower.

I know there has been the odd contradictory example eg how tidy his bunker room was, but overall Dean has been shown to be pretty lax in the housekeeping department and Sam has much more been the one with the more neat freak tendencies.

I don't think Dean skimps on personal hygiene but he has generally been depicted as not the most fastidious so didn't find that scene at all ooc.

The problem is that they're not consistent.  In the Valentine's episode last season where he spits the food all over the floor, that also seemed completely OOC to me.  He's the one who's been shown to clean that kitchen, so that just didn't ring true to me.  He keeps his room clean, keeps Baby clean, keeps his kitchen clean, so I don't see his literally flinging pieces of monster flesh around as something he would do.  

Edited March 15, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I know there has been the odd contradictory example eg how tidy his bunker room was, but overall Dean has been shown to be pretty lax in the housekeeping department and Sam has much more been the one with the more neat freak tendencies.

I don't think Dean skimps

I posted a video of the number of occasions were Dean is grossed out by things and it goes back to s1 up through s11. I don't think those that find it OOC are wrong in the least. The issue was that Dean was wallowing in filth and most felt he would not do that given a choice.

Once he moved into his own home, IMO he did take great care of it. Just like he takes great care of the Impala. Dean has been shown for the past 4 seasons to take care of the bunker.It's the rare occasion when he does not. 

[ahrtee]

46 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I don't think Dean skimps on personal hygiene but he has generally been depicted as not the most fastidious so didn't find that scene at all ooc.

The part that raised my eyebrows the most was the idea that Dean would *sit in Baby* covered in monster goop.  Even if he wasn't grossed out himself (and I remember him being disgusted by being covered in mud after jumping into the river in the Pilot) I don't think he'd risk Baby's upholstery.  Especially since he then proceeded to warn Sam to keep her safe.  

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, Airmid said:

When the hellhound attacks her in her apartment, we know it's right over her due to marks on the carpet.

Question: How did the boys know?

This bugged me too. Could it be because of their stints in Hell they are able to hear them when ordinary people wouldn't? As I recall in The Devil You Know they all seemed to hear the hellhounds even though only Crowley and Brady could see them. Also in Trial and Error the Cassity's didn't hear them except for the ones that were damned. I remember when right before Carl was killed it seemed as if Alice heard the horses reacting while Carl heard the hounds baying.

Edit to add: @Katy M's mention of The King Of The Damned is one that I missed in my original post.

Edited March 15, 2017 by DeeDee79

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Also in Trial and Error the Cassity's didn't hear them except for the ones that were damned. I remember when right before Carl was killed it seemed as if Alice heard the horses reacting while Carl heard the hounds baying.

But later in that episode, a bunch of them traipse into the woods to hunt the "wolf" and it seemed everyone could hear it howling and only one of them was "damned." It is interesting to think back now and see how consistent that's been. I'm not sure when it was I got the impression everyone could hear them, exactly. Maybe it was in that S6 episode where they're trapped in Crowley's torture factory and they give the angel blade to Meg to kill the hounds--they all seem like they can hear the hounds coming then?

Although, was thinking Sam could hear the hellhounds in No Rest for the Wicked too, but not until the end?

Yeah, I dunno.

Edited March 15, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

- Tall Tales - it is Dean eating food on the bed, making a mess, leaving rank leftovers in the fridge  etc

In the opening scene ( eating messily on Sam's bed ) I think that Dean was purposely being a dick to Sam since he thought that he let all of the air out of the tires in the Impala before they realized that it was the Trickster messing with them. Everything else ( socks in the sink? really??) seemed to be part of the differing POV's from both brothers in the episode as far as I could see.

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

But later in that episode, a bunch of them traipse into the woods to hunt the "wolf" and it seemed everyone could hear it howling and only one of them was "damned." It is interesting to think back now and see how consistent that's been. I'm not sure when it was I got the impression everyone could hear them, exactly. Maybe it was in that S6 episode where they're trapped in Crowley's torture factory and they give the angel blade to Meg to kill them with--they all seem like they can hear the hounds coming then?

Although, was thinking Sam could hear the hellhounds in No Rest for the Wicked too, but not until the end?

Yeah, I dunno.

It seems to me that whether everyone can or can't hear them is based on if it's convenient to the plot.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

50 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

The problem is that they're not consistent.  In the Valentine's episode last season where he spits the food all over the floor, that also seemed completely OOC to me.  

I just attributed that to his being hung over.  I'm normally pretty neat (not OCD though.)  But when I'm not feeling good, I sure as heck don't worry about cleaning up.  

ETA: I don't think it's generally very consistent either! :)

Edited March 15, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
that bit at the end there.

[Geordiegirl1967]

31 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The part that raised my eyebrows the most was the idea that Dean would *sit in Baby* covered in monster goop

He loves that car for sure, but they must both have got into Baby covered in blood and guts from hunts a 1000 times. Dean might not like it but he can't be that bothered because it goes with the territory.

[rue721]

You don't have to be a neat freak to refrain from spitting food out all over the kitchen floor or flinging monster body parts all over the living room/library. You just need to be somebody who cleans their own house.

I actually wouldn't have minded either the spitting out the food or flinging around the monster gunk too much if Dean himself had seemed to be trying to make a (corny/silly) joke. Like if he seemed to realize he was grossing Sam out and was just messing with him (before busting out the paper towels and cleaning up).

But whatever, there are tons of ways this episode could have been better written -- but it wasn't. YMMV but I disliked it.

Edited March 15, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, rue721 said:

You don't have to be a neat freak to refrain from spitting food out all over the kitchen floor or flinging monster body parts all over the living room/library. You just need to be somebody who cleans their own house.

Exactly. I would never call Dean--or Sam, for that matter--a neat freak, but come on, someone is going to have to clean that up!

Seriously though, neither Sam nor Dean seem all that fastidious--even though I do think they change their underwear fairly regularly--but, unless they were hunting within an hour of the bunker, I find it rather silly they didn't stop somewhere Dean could, at the very least, use a wet wipe on his face. Which, if they were that close to the bunker, why didn't they stop in for a change of underwear in the last couple days.

But, it doesn't really matter in the long run. It didn't take me out of the episode nor did I get angry about it, but it does seem like something that could've very easily turned into a real charming moment with a few minor tweeks.

Edited March 15, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

He loves that car for sure, but they must both have got into Baby covered in blood and guts from hunts a 1000 times. Dean might not like it but he can't be that bothered because it goes with the territory.

And based on his apology to Baby for lopping off the werepire's head with her car door, he would clean her up ASAP which would be sooner rather than later.

[Airmid]

9 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

He loves that car for sure, but they must both have got into Baby covered in blood and guts from hunts a 1000 times. Dean might not like it but he can't be that bothered because it goes with the territory.

The car thing wouldn't have been that big of a deal if they hadn't made him all anal retentive about Sam driving later on in the same episode and that Dean worried for 'her'. So this same guy who drove all around still drenched squishy mushy stuff was worried about scratches in her paint later on?

Yeah, one more reason why stuff just didn't work in this one.

Even if Dean was a complete slob I just can't image someone not caring to the point of having all that stuff in their hair. I mean it's one thing to have dirty clothes that probably smell. But hunks of flesh and other gooey, sticky bits all stuck in there - it feels bad to begin with, you can feel it all slippery and oozing and then finally hardening...

Eewww - well I just grossed myself out of dinner tonight.

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

You don't have to be a neat freak to refrain from spitting food out all over the kitchen floor or flinging monster body parts all over the living room/library. You just need to be somebody who cleans their own house.

I actually wouldn't have minded either the spitting out the food or flinging around the monster gunk too much if Dean himself had seemed to be trying to make a (corny/silly) joke. Like if he seemed to realize he was grossing Sam out and was just messing with him (before busting out the paper towels and cleaning up).

But whatever, there are tons of ways this episode could have been better written -- but it wasn't. YMMV but I disliked it.

Given Dean's personality I could so see him rubbing his hands and the like on Sam just to get a rise out of his brother. Especially since Sam seem to have had his handy dandy pocket poncho during the kill and was very clean.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

He loves that car for sure, but they must both have got into Baby covered in blood and guts from hunts a 1000 times. Dean might not like it but he can't be that bothered because it goes with the territory.

Now we know they carry at least a blanket in the trunk, because Dean teased Sam about being a gentleman and laying out a blanket on the backseat for Piper in "Baby," so my headcanon is that Dean has several old sheets that he can grab one and put it across Baby's upholstery when they get gross on a hunt. Then they can just clean up the sheets rather than Baby... or even better: disposable/washable plastic tablecloths to drape across the seats. Much easier than having to clean up the upholstery.

[SueB]

20 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Now we know they carry at least a blanket in the trunk, because Dean teased Sam about being a gentleman and laying out a blanket on the backseat for Piper in "Baby," so my headcanon is that Dean has several old sheets that he can grab one and put it across Baby's upholstery when they get gross on a hunt. Then they can just clean up the sheets rather than Baby... or even better: disposable/washable plastic tablecloths to drape across the seats. Much easier than having to clean up the upholstery.

Headcanon accepted. BOOM. 

[rue721]

You know how some people put T-shirts over their front car seats to keep the seats' upholstery clean? It always looks so terrible. No offense to anybody here who does that, I just hate the look personally. Now I'm imagining the Impala with that tacky mess going on. No way! Even blood and gore is a better look than THAT. ;)