S12.E15: Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

-- That said, OK, I'm on board for seeing where the show is going to go with the BMOL, because I am utterly confused. Were we (the audience) meant to be impressed by them last week? Because in no way were they impressive. No idea what's going on!

I sincerely hope that we're supposed to know just what evil bastards they are, and that the Winchesters will come to their senses at some point.  They haven't seen the behind-the-scenes murders that we have.  If they don't make a big fucking deal out of that eventually, then I give up.

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

-- I liked Crowley beating on Lucifer. Childish as it is. I just really hate Lucifer. And not in a "love to hate" kind of way, which I think the show is going for. Just in a hate-hate way.

Totally with you on the hate-hate, completely bores me to tears way as far as Lucifer is concerned.

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

-- Dean and Crowley's dialogue in the woods was really clunky and poorly done IMO. The scene was stilted and awkward altogether, for some reason.

Agreed.  Very poorly written, and I normally love their scenes together.  

[rue721]

Just now, Katy M said:

I was thinking that, too, but then he wouldn't have been able to kill the alpha without the Colt, which they had.  He did have to show them how to make a bullet.  It was kind of a joint effort. 

I dunno, how impressed is Sam supposed to be that his mom stole a gun for the BMOL? And then he used the gun to protect the BMOL? I dunno, to me, that makes the BMOL seem like even bigger losers. ;)

[companionenvy]

In fairness, Sam also had to learn a Very Special Lesson about lying from this week's Person in Peril. And it wasn't even all that good a parallel. 

Liked the episode overall, but not one I'd feel the need to rewatch, and the goofy depiction of Dean bugged. I think Perez writes him as if the persona he sometimes adopts IS Dean. The real Dean, though, isn't a totally disgusting slob who doesn't trust his 35 year old brother to drive his car during a case. 

I am glad that the boys are back on the same page, and to me, the way they are proceeding makes sense. Sam's "I'm in" plainly wasn't "I now work for you," it was "I'll work with you when it seems like the right idea." The MOL has apparently brought their attention to some valid cases, so there's no reason for Dean not to accept cautious cooperation. And I'm thrilled that he made the point that people who work with Crowley can't be all too fussy about who they'll accept help from, under the right circumstances. 

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But I have to say IMO that Lucille joke with the bat, I suspect was a Jensen joke request given their closeness with JDM.  I don't appreciate it, Jensen. LOL

I didn't like it either.  Since when do they hunt with that sort of weapon?  Do they really now just beat monsters to a bloody pulp?  I know there have been scenes throughout the years where they've seemed to enjoy cutting off someone's head, etc., but just luxuriating in the act of killing this way?  I don't like it.  If it was meant to just be an inside joke, it fell flat for me.  I don't watch TWD at all, but I did see the bantering back and forth between Jensen and JDM and it was funny,  but that should have been where it stayed.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I have a sickness. I have to watch each episode at least twice, especially when I have such a profoundly negative reaction to an episode because I generally like this show. So I try to give it another chance to see if anything changes upon rewatch, like something in a performance I enjoy.

I usually watch it on my own and then on the weekend I join my mom while she watches for the 1st time since she's a big fan of the show as well. It's fun to bitch and cheer about the good and bad of each ep with her :*) She's a Dean girl so I'm not sure that she'll like this ep too much :*(

[bearcatfan]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was so hoping that they came up with demon!Dean, that they would stretch that out like 10 episodes and then it would end up with Sam closing the gates of Hell by curing Dean. Oh well.

That would have been interesting, but then you lose all of the demons. I suppose that you could keep Crowley but then he's mortal.

So, I was wrong that Sam would come clean immediately. Glad he did before the end of the episode. Not sure why everyone thinks that Dean throwing a fit would be a good thing but I was glad that he didn't. Standing up for yourself does not mean throwing a fit and refusing to consider other people's perspective. It does mean telling others how you feel even if you decide to follow their lead. He said he didn't like it and that he didn't trust them but noted that they work with people they don't trust all the time. Sam agreed to bail if things look off. If they are only sending them on hunts, it's not a big deal. It kinda what Bobby and Garth did for a while. However, I'm sure that something will happen to show that they shouldn't be trusted and Dean will have been right all along.

4 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Sam's "I'm in" plainly wasn't "I now work for you," it was "I'll work with you when it seems like the right idea." The MOL has apparently brought their attention to some valid cases, so there's no reason for Dean not to accept cautious cooperation. And I'm thrilled that he made the point that people who work with Crowley can't be all too fussy about who they'll accept help from, under the right circumstances. 

Exactly.

I watched with friends who also watch TWD and we loved the Negan reference in the beginning. They've made references to other projects the actors have been on. Jared with Gilmore Girls for one. I guess I just don't take it that seriously. I like the jokes.

I knew the fact that Sam killed the hellhound was going to be a problem for many. It use to never bother me which brother killed what but now I cringe when Sam kills anything because I know it's going to be another episode that people hate and delete and then talk about how much the writers hate Dean.

Sigh. It may be time for a break from the board. I'm starting to get bitter. This used to be fun.

[MysteryGuest]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I admire you if you can rewatch this.  I already deleted it off my DVR.

I will normally watch at least once more, because I watch the 2nd time with no commercials, and it frequently makes the episode much more entertaining.  We'll see if it improves this one at all.  I'm not hopeful.

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

I knew the fact that Sam killed the hellhound was going to be a problem for many. It use to never bother me which brother killed what but now I cringe when Sam kills anything because I know it's going to be another episode that people hate and delete and then talk about how much the writers hate Dean.

I am not one who normally comments on this particular issue, but this season really hasn't been too great, if you're a Dean fan.  There have been quite a few episodes where he's been totally uninvolved with the action.  I had no problem with Sam killing the Prince of Hell, because both brothers were in on the fight, equally.  But when they have Dean just wandering around in the woods, cracking really lame jokes with Crowley, or multiple episodes where he's seen speeding to the scene but somehow never getting there until after everything is over, it's a little hard to take.  

But even with all of that, it's not the main reason I didn't like the episode.  There were plenty of other bad scenes to make me dislike this one, even if Dean had been in on the kill of the hell hound.

[catrox14]

never mind. nothing to see here.

Edited March 10, 2017 by catrox14
deleted

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Not sure why everyone thinks that Dean throwing a fit would be a good thing but I was glad that he didn't. Standing up for yourself does not mean throwing a fit and refusing to consider other people's perspective. It does mean telling others how you feel even if you decide to follow their lead. He said he didn't like it and that he didn't trust them but noted that they work with people they don't trust all the time. Sam agreed to bail if things look off. If they are only sending them on hunts, it's not a big deal. It kinda what Bobby and Garth did for a while. However, I'm sure that something will happen to show that they shouldn't be trusted and Dean will have been right all along.

I've not seen anyone here suggest that Dean needed to throw a fit. He could maintain his  stance, hunt with Sam and still not work with BMOL.  For me, it's just undoing all of Dean's character growth at the beginning of the season.

Although it's feeling more like maybe all of Dean's standing up for himself was not really what I thought it was. Maybe I'm supposed to think he was wrong most of the time.  I dunno what to make of Dean this season. It's kind of depressing TBH.

[ILoveReading]

26 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I didn't like it either.  Since when do they hunt with that sort of weapon?  Do they really now just beat monsters to a bloody pulp?  I know there have been scenes throughout the years where they've seemed to enjoy cutting off someone's head, etc., but just luxuriating in the act of killing this way?  I don't like it.  If it was meant to just be an inside joke, it fell flat for me.  I don't watch TWD at all, but I did see the bantering back and forth between Jensen and JDM and it was funny,  but that should have been where it stayed.

Yeah, I liked they gave a shout out to JDM but Dean usually only gets like that when he's altered, like with the Mark or after John's death.  Straight forward hunts, he does the job.

It totally ruins the scene last week where he stopped Ketch from torturing the vampire.

[Mick Lady]

Mick (my husband, not the character) is driving me nuts! He keeps asking, "What's Gwen's story?"

He's right, when she was in the Impala with Sam, she seemed to imply she knew why the hell hound went after her boyfriend.

Any ideas? I gotta get him off my back!

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Mick (my husband, not the character) is driving me nuts! He keeps asking, "What's Gwen's story?"

He's right, when she was in the Impala with Sam, she seemed to imply she knew why the hell hound went after her boyfriend.

Any ideas? I gotta get him off my back!

NOPE. Unless it was filmed and edited out or it's some big reveal later, but NOPE nothing special. Just a poorly written conversation to highlight Sam's lying to Dean, I guess.  I got nuthin'

[ILoveReading]

Unfortunately, it also seems like Sam and Dean are now working for the British Men of Letters.  Because we haven't seen them object to anything the Brits want them to do.   It feels like their in charge and Sam, Mary and now Dean are their lackies.

[catrox14]

41 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I didn't like it either.  Since when do they hunt with that sort of weapon?  Do they really now just beat monsters to a bloody pulp?  I know there have been scenes throughout the years where they've seemed to enjoy cutting off someone's head, etc., but just luxuriating in the act of killing this way?  I don't like it.  If it was meant to just be an inside joke, it fell flat for me.  I don't watch TWD at all, but I did see the bantering back and forth between Jensen and JDM and it was funny,  but that should have been where it stayed.

Seriously. I mean it's a joke but it's fucking with continuity.  And I realized this was a Nina-Corrado Lopez directed episode and the boys rave about her as a director which makes me wonder. does she allow them more leeway to alter scenes or something.

I dunno. Maybe I'm mad at the writers and maybe I should be side-eying J2 more. 

[catrox14]

OH and another thing.

So in the THEN, they showed the hellhounds from Trial and Error and Crowley's hellhound in s5 but didn't bother to include Dean being ripped apart by Hellhounds. Seemed like a glaring omission especially considering that part of the episode had Dean actually saying "We have some experience in that area."

This show does remember that Dean was dragged to Hell by Hellhounds, right??

[Pondlass1]

Davy Perez has only watched his own episodes. He's a busy man ?

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

OH and another thing.

So in the THEN, they showed the hellhounds from Trial and Error and Crowley's hellhound in s5 but didn't bother to include Dean being ripped apart by Hellhounds. Seemed like a glaring omission especially considering that part of the episode had Dean actually saying "We have some experience in that area."

This show does remember that Dean was dragged to Hell by Hellhounds, right??

Doesn't seem like it. In all of the times that they've been spoken of we've never seen a mention or flashback from No Rest For The Wicked.

Edited March 10, 2017 by DeeDee79

[bethy]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This show does remember that Dean was dragged to Hell by Hellhounds, right??

My feeling was that if they reminded us that Dean got torn apart and INTO HELL by hellhounds then it would make no sense that these hellhounds were deterred or wounded by regular weapons.

"Hey, remember how we showed you Dean being mauled by hellhounds while Sam wept and stood by before his brother was carried off to hell? Turns out Sam could have just shot it or maybe kicked it or possibly even yelled 'no' and it would have run away."

That really bugged me.

[catrox14]

Everything between Cas and the guy was such a lift from Nightshifter. He was Not!Ronald Resnick/NotChuck.  Even Dean and Sam's meeting with the girl was a call back to how Dean and Sam dealt with Ronald. This just makes me want to watch Nightshifter on loop and remind myself of Dean being grossed out at the shapeshifter's skin coming off. 

OH and I guess my theory that Dean can hear hellhounds is gone. ALTHOUGH maybe I can still hold onto him hearing them when it's a hellhound that's come for a person that made a deal. YES that is my new head!canon. YOU WILL NOT TAKE THIS FROM ME.

NOPE NOPE NOPE FUCK OFF with Dean's characterization in this episode NOPE NOPE NOPE

Dean is not an idiot, he knows what a fucking algorithm is. And how fucking condescending to have Sam say 'Computer".

Okay I found a positive.  Dean looked hot in his coat and tie.

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Okay I found a positive.  Dean looked hot in his coat and tie.

 True but that's a given. It's hard for Jensen to look bad in anything.

Edited March 10, 2017 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

 True but that's a given. It's hard for Jensen to look bad in anything.

I know but's all I've got right now. Let me have it.

[Wayward Son]

I can't watch until tomorrow (timezones ugh) . How irritated am I going to be about Castiel's behaviour in this one? I think I read he's back to keeping secrets from the brothers again? *sigh*

[ZennyKenny]

You know, it never ceases to amaze me how, after all these seasons, the writers keep each episode so fresh with new ideas.

FINALLY we get to see Castiel involved with a storyline that involves Heaven! I was beginning to think it would never happen! Another angel talking him up? the other angels wanting to put their differences aside to join forces for a common goal? Brilliant! I love where this BRAND NEW storyline is heading!!

Also, it was so refreshing to see Lucifer and Crowley play a game of verbal chess. In Hell's throne room, no less! I was like "SAY WUUUUUUUT?????" I mean come on, the king of hell and the original ruler of hell gong toe-to-toe with snarky banter? What will the writers think up next???

Just when I thought the story couldn't keep me guessing any harder, wouldn't you know it; a couple of rogue demons who don't like Crowley go and spring Lucifer! When they delayed in unlocking his chains and had Lucifer sit there and listen to a list of demands, I thought to myself "well, that's just smart thinking right there. I'm sure that he will be happy to honor their demands and reward them for rescuing him." Boy, was I blindsided when he killed them straightaway! Talk about a plot twist!!

And I gotta say, when Dean out-of-the-blue berated Sam for his driving skills (or lack thereof, amirite? I mean remember all of those other times they established that Sam's driving sucks?) and made such a huge deal for no reason whatsoever about Sam being extra careful with "Baby"... I thought to myself "now there is NO WAY IN HELL that anything will happen to the car later in the episode. Well! You can just imagine my utter shock when that Hellhound stomped all over that very same car, putting dents in it and shattering the windshields. Who could have guessed?! I daresay that I damn near soiled myself! And wouldn't you know it; even though it was through no fault of Sam's, Dean still scolds him anyway. Even the jokes are fresh! 10 out of 10, would laugh again!!

[catrox14]

Okay the Cas stuff was better upon rewatch.

But it scares me. Cas, you just found your place with the boys. Dean and Sam are your family! NO , you don't need Heaven.  Don't do this. :(. I'm so scared for him.

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I know but's all I've got right now. Let me have it.

Sorry! Stay in your happy place ?

7 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

You know, it never ceases to amaze me how, after all these seasons, the writers keep each episode so fresh with new ideas.

FINALLY we get to see Castiel involved with a storyline that involves Heaven! I was beginning to think it would never happen! Another angel talking him up? the other angels wanting to put their differences aside to join forces for a common goal? Brilliant! I love where this BRAND NEW storyline is heading!!

Also, it was so refreshing to see Lucifer and Crowley play a game of verbal chess. In Hell's throne room, no less! I was like "SAY WUUUUUUUT?????" I mean come on, the king of hell and the original ruler of hell gong toe-to-toe with snarky banter? What will the writers think up next???

Just when I thought the story couldn't keep me guessing any harder, wouldn't you know it; a couple of rogue demons who don't like Crowley go and spring Lucifer! When they delayed in unlocking his chains and had Lucifer sit there and listen to a list of demands, I thought to myself "well, that's just smart thinking right there. I'm sure that he will be happy to honor their demands and reward them for rescuing him." Boy, was I blindsided when he killed them straightaway! Talk about a plot twist!!

And I gotta say, when Dean out-of-the-blue berated Sam for his driving skills (or lack thereof, amirite? I mean remember all of those other times they established that Sam's driving sucks?) and made such a huge deal for no reason whatsoever about Sam being extra careful with "Baby"... I thought to myself "now there is NO WAY IN HELL that anything will happen to the car later in the episode. Well! You can just imagine my utter shock when that Hellhound stomped all over that very same car, putting dents in it and shattering the windshields. Who could have guessed?! I daresay that I damn near soiled myself! And wouldn't you know it; even though it was through no fault of Sam's, Dean still scolds him anyway. Even the jokes are fresh! 10 out of 10, would laugh again!!

Wonderfully snarky comment * bows*

[Lemuria]

Quote

You know, it never ceases to amaze me how, after all these seasons, the writers keep each episode so fresh with new ideas.

FINALLY we get to see Castiel involved with a storyline that involves Heaven! I was beginning to think it would never happen! Another angel talking him up? the other angels wanting to put their differences aside to join forces for a common goal? Brilliant! I love where this BRAND NEW storyline is heading!!

Also, it was so refreshing to see Lucifer and Crowley play a game of verbal chess. In Hell's throne room, no less! I was like "SAY WUUUUUUUT?????" I mean come on, the king of hell and the original ruler of hell gong toe-to-toe with snarky banter? What will the writers think up next???

Just when I thought the story couldn't keep me guessing any harder, wouldn't you know it; a couple of rogue demons who don't like Crowley go and spring Lucifer! When they delayed in unlocking his chains and had Lucifer sit there and listen to a list of demands, I thought to myself "well, that's just smart thinking right there. I'm sure that he will be happy to honor their demands and reward them for rescuing him." Boy, was I blindsided when he killed them straightaway! Talk about a plot twist!!

And I gotta say, when Dean out-of-the-blue berated Sam for his driving skills (or lack thereof, amirite? I mean remember all of those other times they established that Sam's driving sucks?) and made such a huge deal for no reason whatsoever about Sam being extra careful with "Baby"... I thought to myself "now there is NO WAY IN HELL that anything will happen to the car later in the episode. Well! You can just imagine my utter shock when that Hellhound stomped all over that very same car, putting dents in it and shattering the windshields. Who could have guessed?! I daresay that I damn near soiled myself! And wouldn't you know it; even though it was through no fault of Sam's, Dean still scolds him anyway. Even the jokes are fresh! 10 out of 10, would laugh again!!

ZennyKenny, thank you for making me realize how wrong I was to dislike so much of this episode!  Looking at it again through your warped mind amazing perspicacity, I am still bored by the tension-less same old same old and ticked off by the irrelevance of Dean in this episode blown away by the startling twists and turns and incredibly sharp characterizations.

I throw a cow at you! 

Edited March 10, 2017 by Lemuria
making sense matters!

[ZennyKenny]

6 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Wonderfully snarky comment * bows*

Thank you. Honestly I'm trying to make the best of my displeasure with this show lately. It may just be a case of 'familiarity breeds contempt', but it really seems like the writing has gone downhill lately. I love the characters, and I love the actors, but God I hate the writing.

[Mick Lady]

17 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I can't watch until tomorrow (timezones ugh) . How irritated am I going to be about Castiel's behaviour in this one? I think I read he's back to keeping secrets from the brothers again? *sigh*

I was wondering where the hell you were.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

18 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

You know, it never ceases to amaze me how, after all these seasons, the writers keep each episode so fresh with new ideas.

We need the icon of dripping sarcasm!

But, I love this show. I'm in for it to the end. I've said it before, 12 years and I still never miss it! That's got to say something!

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

But, I love this show. I'm in for it to the end. I've said it before, 12 years and I still never miss it! That's got to say something!

It's says we are insane

[Mick Lady]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's says we are insane

Speak for yourself!

Edited March 10, 2017 by Mick Lady

[ILoveReading]

33 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

You know, it never ceases to amaze me how, after all these seasons, the writers keep each episode so fresh with new ideas.

FINALLY we get to see Castiel involved with a storyline that involves Heaven! I was beginning to think it would never happen! Another angel talking him up? the other angels wanting to put their differences aside to join forces for a common goal? Brilliant! I love where this BRAND NEW storyline is heading!!

Also, it was so refreshing to see Lucifer and Crowley play a game of verbal chess. In Hell's throne room, no less! I was like "SAY WUUUUUUUT?????" I mean come on, the king of hell and the original ruler of hell gong toe-to-toe with snarky banter? What will the writers think up next???

Just when I thought the story couldn't keep me guessing any harder, wouldn't you know it; a couple of rogue demons who don't like Crowley go and spring Lucifer! When they delayed in unlocking his chains and had Lucifer sit there and listen to a list of demands, I thought to myself "well, that's just smart thinking right there. I'm sure that he will be happy to honor their demands and reward them for rescuing him." Boy, was I blindsided when he killed them straightaway! Talk about a plot twist!!

And I gotta say, when Dean out-of-the-blue berated Sam for his driving skills (or lack thereof, amirite? I mean remember all of those other times they established that Sam's driving sucks?) and made such a huge deal for no reason whatsoever about Sam being extra careful with "Baby"... I thought to myself "now there is NO WAY IN HELL that anything will happen to the car later in the episode. Well! You can just imagine my utter shock when that Hellhound stomped all over that very same car, putting dents in it and shattering the windshields. Who could have guessed?! I daresay that I damn near soiled myself! And wouldn't you know it; even though it was through no fault of Sam's, Dean still scolds him anyway. Even the jokes are fresh! 10 out of 10, would laugh again!!

Your post was more entertaining then the episode. 

I have to tell myself Dean didn't react because he's just done.   Done with Mary, done with Sam and done with being lied too and at the end of the season he's going to take off.  (not really but its my happy place.).

[Mick Lady]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Done with Mary, done with Sam and done with being lied too and at the end of the season he's going to take off.  (not really but its my happy place.).

Adding another exciting twist.

[Lemuria]

ILoveReading, I'm hoping that Dean's agreement at the end is that he knows now that both Mary and Sam are allying themselves with the BMoL and if he wants them to stay safe--and we know that is important to him--he needs to be there when they are hunting with the BMoL ( or with info from the British twits).  If that's the case, I'll be interested in seeing what happens if Dean decides, "Nope, they're useless and we can't rely on them or their intel," but Sam and Mary want to keep working with them.

[Diane]

Well after working literally all day I enjoyed it. Will rewatch tomorrow and comment more. I have realized I am not that picky I just need the escape sometimes. 

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Mick Lady said:

Mick (my husband, not the character) is driving me nuts! He keeps asking, "What's Gwen's story?"

He's right, when she was in the Impala with Sam, she seemed to imply she knew why the hell hound went after her boyfriend.

Any ideas? I gotta get him off my back!

While it WAS a weird way of going about it, all she really felt guilty for was her boyfriend being in the woods in the first place.  She didn't love him and she was going out for a "final" camping trip before leaving for Washington (state, I presume) to go to Vet college.  Ramsey really was a rogue hellhound, let out by DemonWeasel and DemonSuperfan to distract Crowley.  That she found the engagement ring really upset her (when her boyfriend was getting wood), because clearly they weren't on the same page.

So, the dialog is all there. But, I do agree, it seemed like she was talking about guilt in a way related to the Hell Hound.

[SueB]

Quick Thoughts

This episode should be re-titled "How Crowley Got His Groove Back".  Everything was pretty much a Crowley "win" this episode:
- He got rid of two disloyal minions
- He gave Lucifer hope before snatching it away, extremely effectively
- Dean called him for help & he got to bromance with Dean for a while
- BOTH Sam and Dean said actual, sincere, "THANK YOUs" to him and semi-apologized for sending his son back in time to his death
- He gets to put Ramsey's head on his wall versus wasting energy watching the dog
 

Likes:
- Sam came clean pretty quickly.  And apologized for not doing it right away.
- Dean didn't over-react to the lie. He took it in stride.  And the only lie was that Sam got the tips on the case from the BMoL.  Unlike Mary, he wasn't working jobs FOR them. He was taking cases offered.  I think there's a difference, and Dean knows it.  But more importantly, Dean is secure enough in his relationship with Sam that they can have this bump in the road and move past it.
- Dean insisted that at the first whiff of trouble, they are out.
- They brought up Joshua.  Now if it's real, then that's a big "YAY!".  But if it's just a trick to get Cas up to Heaven, where they are going to hurt him, then it's a big "NO."
- The boys sincerely saying "thank you" to Crowley. It's about damn time. 
- Crowley having the upper hand with Lucifer.  I thought he was 12 kinds of stupid for feeding his revenge. But making the meatsuit a 'walking cage' is a pretty clever way of keeping Mark P. around and yet limiting Lucifer's power.
- The conspiracy buff's use of ancient technology.  This justifies me keeping all my piles of old electronics -- hey, I'll take any rationalization I can get.
- This episode was strong with the pretty.
- The Green Cooler got to save Sam! (Okay, Gwen helped... but Green Cooler made a difference... yes, I follow the Green Cooler on Twitter... stop judging me)
- The Dean/Crowley conversation.  I liked the banter.  It wasn't uber sophisticated but it felt comfortable.  And since I like them as a Team (again, stop with the judging please!), this worked for me.
- Gwen hugging Crowley - unexpected and pretty funny IMO.
- Dean picking up on Cas sounding weird.
- Naming the Hell Hound Ramsey - I'm pretty sure it was after that asshole on Game of Thrones. Now THIS joke landed for me. So did the "now it just got awkward".

Meh:
- Gwen's plight.  It's good you feel guilty -- because that boy was clearly in love with you and you led him on because it was easier. 
- The Lucille joke didn't land for me either. It wasn't horrible, but it wasn't awesome.
- The episode was a slower pace. That wasn't "bad" but it didn't keep me on the edge of my seat.  I was a bit stunned when the Hell Hound was put down rather easily.

Disliked:
- Throwing ghoul spooge around the bunker. OOC for Dean and nasty.  Go clean that up Dean.
- Dean telling Sam that he rides the brakes.  
- Baby getting smashed. Again.  On the one hand, I like that the car provided some protection.  OTOH, that's going to be HOURS of repair without Cas to help.
- Cas not telling Sam and Dean he was going back to Heaven.

Anxiety Inducing:
- Cas' story.  IF he gets to connect with Heaven and it's real, then I'm happy.  But Cas never gets nice things. So I'm worried.  I'll wait to see how this plays out.  If it turns out it was just a trap, then I'm mad -- because Cas doesn't NEED to be duped again.  If it turns out positive for Cas, then I'm happy.

I've already done a quick rewatch of some of the scenes.  This was definitely a slower paced episode but it had some nice moments (Crowley getting the upper hand on Lucifer, the bromance, Sam and Dean talking like the mature adults they are).

2 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

I knew the fact that Sam killed the hellhound was going to be a problem for many. It use to never bother me which brother killed what but now I cringe when Sam kills anything because I know it's going to be another episode that people hate and delete and then talk about how much the writers hate Dean.

Sigh. It may be time for a break from the board. I'm starting to get bitter. This used to be fun.

Sending you a PM.

Edited March 10, 2017 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

-- Sam saying that the BMOL killed the Alpha Vampire made me go, "aaaaaaguhghghhhhh." Sam killed the Alpha, and the BMOL acted as bait *if I'm being generous.* What is going on in Sam's head?

I think Sam's brain is still damaged from the huge chunk of plotonium that fell on his head last week. The aftereffects include Sam having to spout stupid things that support the non-sensical plot point the plotonium dictated Sam follow even though we, the audience actually saw that what happened didn't match what Sam was saying, because...

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

I dunno, how impressed is Sam supposed to be that his mom stole a gun for the BMOL? And then he used the gun to protect the BMOL? I dunno, to me, that makes the BMOL seem like even bigger losers. ;)

I know! And that's not even including the fact that the intel on that hunt was so awful, that Wally got killed... and the BMoL thought that the Alpha vampire was somewhere else. So basically Sam was impressed that the BMoL somehow found out where the Colt was (big deal), sent someone to steal it for them, and let a spy for the Alpha vampire into their base, so that the Alpha vamp could come attack them. Ooookay... I'm thinking that plotonium has caused some serious brain damage.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

...But I have to say IMO that Lucille joke with the bat, I suspect was a Jensen joke request given their closeness with JDM.  I don't appreciate it, Jensen. LOL

Also, given I watch TWD and Negan is a fucking piece of shit, I'm not enamored of Dean being associated with Negan that way. It's a visual thing I'm not down with.

Not only that, if you're going to do it, don't do it halfway (imo) Since when does this show back away from the gore? If we're supposed to believe that Dean used the bat to cause guts and gore all over himself, then the bat should also be covered with gore. Why would Dean clean off the bat - and apparently dry it - and not clean off himself.... and my answer to that (i.e. why was Dean not concerned with his being dirty)... don't throw tomatoes, but I came up with: he was sorta drunk? That was the last time we saw him not really care about flinging stuff around (in that case food). That's probably not it, but it would explain why he was totally weird this episode.

Okay now the rest...

I did not like Sam having drunk the Koolaide. I still contend it makes little sense, and even worse the writers made him lie, and we had to have a very special lesson just for Sam to realize that lying is bad mmm-kay. Yes, Dean "caved" a little at the end of the episode, but at least he got to look understanding by forgiving Sam so easily while Sam once again had to play the role of the crappy brother. I can't emphasize how sick and tired I am of that, especially since they are making Sam do out of character things just to get to that "Sam is wrong" place. And the "Sam is a crappy brother" place, since apparently Sam needed a very special lesson to show him the error of his ways.

One good thing: Yes there is one! I was entirely surprised that Crowley really was 10 steps ahead as he said and had not only trapped Lucifer in his meatsuit but that he can affect the meatsuit. I'm going to throw out the wild speculation that Lucifer escaping was a not only a misdirect this episode, but for later as well. I have a feeling that Crowley has a bigger long game than we know, and that maybe he is looking to be the big bad again. He is saying that he's going to kill Lucifer's spawn, but is that what he's really planning, or is he hoping to use the child in some way to influence Lucifer - or to teach/use the child himself to gain advantage or power. He learned some lessons with Amara, so will he do it differently this time?

And he has the "confidence" of Sam and Dean. It came up again in this episode that Crowley saved Castiel. I think Dean(?) even asked why? Both thanked him. Maybe this was Crowley's plan all along when saving Castiel? Which character was it that said "it's always Crowley." My crazy speculation is that Crowley is up to something again, and Sam and Dean are getting lulled into a false sense of well-being around Crowley, and he's going to make them pay for it - or Sam at least. I think it was just last season that Crowley was saying that getting Sam back into the cage with Lucifer was an item on his bucket list (am I remembering that right?), so maybe he has plans to use Lucifer somehow in that regard.

[SueB]

6 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Which character was it that said "it's always Crowley." 

MEG: When are you gonna get it? Crowley's always the problem. He's just waiting for the right moment to strike.

[AwesomO4000]

Thanks @SueB, and I think I agree with Meg on this one. I think Crowley's up to something big, and I think Sam and Dean are being lulled into a false sense of security.

[Mick Lady]

40 minutes ago, SueB said:

But making the meatsuit a 'walking cage' is a pretty clever way of keeping Mark P. around and yet limiting Lucifer's power.

This is a "Good Thing?!"

I'm done with Luci.

But I'm down with Crowley! Love that man!

[SueB]

8 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

This is a "Good Thing?!"

I'm done with Luci.

But I'm down with Crowley! Love that man!

If we are going to have Luci, Id rather it was Mark P. 

[Commando Cody]

Is a Walking Dead reference on Supernatural kind of redundant?

I was so bored with this episode.

As I was watching the scene - when Lucifer was still chained - I started to wonder how it would have been if Crowley had been another fallen angel who took over hell after Lucifer, instead of a salesman. 

[DittyDotDot]

Wow, so the show is firmly entrenched in the idea that if it worked in the past, we should damn well do it again...and again...and once more for good measure. Sigh.

Well, at least Crowley's back to being the King of Rotten...ish...whatever.

5 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

Mick (my husband, not the character) is driving me nuts! He keeps asking, "What's Gwen's story?"

He's right, when she was in the Impala with Sam, she seemed to imply she knew why the hell hound went after her boyfriend.

Any ideas? I gotta get him off my back!

She didn't know why the hound went after her boyfriend, but felt guilty for dragging him out into the woods and got him dead. Apparently he really hearted her and she only half-hearted him. I think the hound went after the boyfriend--now keep in mind I was only partly paying attention because it was the teaser and obviously the guy was dead meat--because he ran and dogs like to chase things. Seriously, I don't know, but seemed a reasonable enough explanation for this episode. No need to use brain power needlessly! ;)

4 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I can't watch until tomorrow (timezones ugh) . How irritated am I going to be about Castiel's behaviour in this one? I think I read he's back to keeping secrets from the brothers again? *sigh*

I don't know, it's their default setting for Cass. He's not out-and-out lying, but it sure does seem like he's being strung along by the nose again. Hope that helps with the expectations?

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Here you go

NOT RUSTY!!! 

Just sayin'... .

[flyinghigh]

Quote

 

You know, it never ceases to amaze me how, after all these seasons, the writers keep each episode so fresh with new ideas.

FINALLY we get to see Castiel involved with a storyline that involves Heaven! I was beginning to think it would never happen! Another angel talking him up? the other angels wanting to put their differences aside to join forces for a common goal? Brilliant! I love where this BRAND NEW storyline is heading!!

Also, it was so refreshing to see Lucifer and Crowley play a game of verbal chess. In Hell's throne room, no less! I was like "SAY WUUUUUUUT?????" I mean come on, the king of hell and the original ruler of hell gong toe-to-toe with snarky banter? What will the writers think up next???

Just when I thought the story couldn't keep me guessing any harder, wouldn't you know it; a couple of rogue demons who don't like Crowley go and spring Lucifer! When they delayed in unlocking his chains and had Lucifer sit there and listen to a list of demands, I thought to myself "well, that's just smart thinking right there. I'm sure that he will be happy to honor their demands and reward them for rescuing him." Boy, was I blindsided when he killed them straightaway! Talk about a plot twist!!

And I gotta say, when Dean out-of-the-blue berated Sam for his driving skills (or lack thereof, amirite? I mean remember all of those other times they established that Sam's driving sucks?) and made such a huge deal for no reason whatsoever about Sam being extra careful with "Baby"... I thought to myself "now there is NO WAY IN HELL that anything will happen to the car later in the episode. Well! You can just imagine my utter shock when that Hellhound stomped all over that very same car, putting dents in it and shattering the windshields. Who could have guessed?! I daresay that I damn near soiled myself! And wouldn't you know it; even though it was through no fault of Sam's, Dean still scolds him anyway. Even the jokes are fresh! 10 out of 10, would laugh again!!

 

For a second I thought somebody really liked this episode!! Now I am just ROTFL. 

( New here. Do we have any emoticons? Can't seem to find the icon..)

Last episode I wanted to scream - at manipulative Mary, at those ... BMOL. And most importantly - Sam. Why did he have to agree to work with BMOL? I was very upset. How could Sam even think of hurting Dean again? Purge came to my mind and I was like NO PLEASE.

And then came this episode - I don't even fell like commenting on how dull Castiel's story was, or how pathetic Dean and Crowley's conversation was, or even why Sam is getting all the kills now days. They can actually let go of Jensen now. Even their first scene - though  funny on first watch - was so OOC for Dean.

My main issue is how easily they let Dean accept Sam's lie. YA YA I know. Sam APOLOGIZED.  Is this the same Sam who would hold on to his brother's lies till cows come home? And why does Dean really hate BMOL? Because they hurt his family? By his family I mean Sam. Am I missing something? First Mary decides it is ok to work for the greater good - kill more monsters, and work with BMOL, and now Sam? The way Dean agreed with Sam on this issue, I felt there is something so NOT-DEAN here. Though Dean loves his family, he has a sense of perception, a moral compass that he,  least till this episode, would hold on to. IMHO anyways

I really want to find something positive to say about the episode. This is two episodes in a row I find myself in a place that I can find nothing nice to say.

[mertensia]

I liked the episode. I felt for Gwen; she really did feel responsible for his death. 

[Aeryn13]

Dean didn`t apologize? Well, that is good at least. Not that any of the episode sounds tempting. I don`t like buffoonery scenes. 

[Wynne88]

Usually if I have to watch an episode for the first time a day or two after it airs, I'm unable to stop myself from reading the comments and reviews in my spare moments first.  This time I did.  If you had asked me to list everything I didn't want to see, I think it probably would have been included in this episode.  I hated Sam lying about the same thing that his mother had, only with the added knowledge of how that had torn Dean up when she did it.  I hated the stupidity of the writing, and as much as I hate to say it, much of the acting that went along with it.  The whole explanation of the bear eating the boyfriend was dumb, horribly written, and half-heartedly performed.  Having Crowley and Dean go wandering through the woods hunting something that doesn't leave tracks was stupid, as was the incredible coincidence that they found the den - which was ultimately pointless.  It appeared to just be a way to have the boys split up.  The hell hound wanted the girl - if you want to find it, stay by her - don't send her and Sam off on a road trip to . . . where?  Back to the apartment warded with goofer dust?  Why didn't they just stay there in the first place?  I thought the CGI dog was really poorly executed - things like that are usually better off just staying invisible.  When it attacked the car, Sam just sits there - doesn't bother to call Dean, or even to get a weapon until it's had a few minutes to trash the car?  And he can't kill it when he's got glasses and the knife, but instead just lies there like an idiot until the girl rescues him?  And THEN he can kill it even though as I recall he had lost the glasses?  I hated this episode with a passion, and I can only think of one or two over the course of the entire show I felt that strongly about.  Since I still haven't read the previous comments, I do apologize if I've repeated things others have said.

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Since when do they hunt with that sort of weapon?  Do they really now just beat monsters to a bloody pulp?

Here's my theory on the club. They mentioned that they had just killed a siren.  That club looked like it had barbed wire or something sharp on it.  So, they used that to put the blood from the victim on it and then just whacked the siren with the club and it died.  No beating to a blood pulp.  Does seem more clunky than what Bobby did, but, hey, we can't all be Bobby.

[SueB]

11 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I can't say I enjoyed it as much as you did, Morrigan.  I guess we got our answer that Sam is fully onboard with the BMOL.  And Dean caved way too fast.  Not at all happy with this turn of events.  

I think "fully onboard" and "caved way to fast" are both inaccurate descriptions of event. 

From the iTunes Closed Captioning:

Quote

Sam: "They get results. I don't like them either but if we can save people then it.... Either way, I-I shouldn't have lied to you. I'm sorry man, I-I..."
Dean: "Well. okay." 
Sam: "Okay?" 
Dean: "What do you want me to say? Do I like it? No. Do I trust them? Hell no. But you're right. We work with people we don't trust all the time. I mean, hell, I just Liam Neeson'd it up with Crowley. So, if you want to give this a shot, then... [scoffs] Fine. But the minute -- and I mean the second -- something feels off, we bail."
Sam: "Yeah, of course. Deal."

Sam is:
1) Not taking orders from BMoL. He's worked cases they offered.  
2) Made it clear he doesn't like them. He is still wary.
3) Committed to bailing if 'something feels off'. 

Dean is:
1) Not trusting them.
2) Acknowledging that they work with those they don't like all the time if it gets the job done.  
3) Putting conditions on the arrangement with a "bail" clause.

In fact, I'd say the entire POINT of the episode from a Sam and Dean perspective was to have them work someone they don't trust (Crowley) on a relatively routine issue. Yes, it was logic based to call Crowley: one of his Hell Hounds had slipped it's leash and Crowley controls them -- or so they thought. But they didn't hesitate. And it worked out successful.  They THANKED Crowley (he's earned it IMO in recent weeks) and the girl gave Crowley a HUG.  

Bottom Line: The dialog does not support "full on-board". And Dean's rationale was sound plus he set conditions.  I'd call it maturity, not caving due to low self-esteem.