S05.E02: Pests

[DrSpaceman73]

I was on the parents side for once with Paige.  Her telling them she would never tell her BF anything is not at all believable when she already told one person about them. 

Not really sure what the backstory is all about with them trying to infiltrate the soviet family years ago.  Also does the Asian boy, I forget his name, know they are Russian spies?  I was confused about his comments about his homeland, mentioning about what the Soviets did to his homeland. 

I am suspicious of Stan's new girlfriend as well.  Stan isn't that attractive or interesting, she has to have some angle on him. 

[Emeraldcity]

Tuan confuses me.  He seemes to hates Americans and Communists.  What is he doing with the Jennings?  He knows he is working for the Russians.  Is it some weird Stockholm thing?  He views the people who murdered his parents as strong and he wants to be that strong to and Americans as weak and soft?  

Tusn confuses me.

The communists did not kill Tuans parents the Americans did by bombing them. We dont known whether his family were communists before their deaths but he certainly is now.

[stagmania]

9 hours ago, benteen said:

Elizabeth and Philip are terrible parents and Philip used to be a good one.  This whole Paige thing is going to blow up in their faces I have no doubt.

Both of them seem completely at a loss for how to parent her now that she's essentially an asset they have to manage, and a particularly volatile one at that. Can't say I'm surprised or know what they should do differently. Paige has responded badly to every attempt they've made to talk to her.

I knew Stan's girlfriend was going to be significant as soon as I saw the actress playing her, plus all the build up before we met her. And I definitely interpreted the thing with Oleg as the CIA using Stan's name to get their own operation going.

[teddysmom]

Carter enacted a grain embargo in 1980 to retaliate for USSR invading Afghanistan. Reagan lifted it in '81 because it was hurting US farmers. TBS, the Russians in the meantime realized they didn't need our grain that much, they started having it imported from South America and also started growing it in the Ukraine.

[SunnyBeBe]

Paige.  Well, even Matthew tells her that she DOES make her own decisions.  (Stop whining Paige.) What average 15-16 year old girl is allowed to hang out ALL THE TIME, as Philip said, at her boyfriend's house, unsupervised at that?  Hmm.....I can see why P & E are concerned, but, what about the obvious risk such as PREGNANCY. Paige can't handle that. That's for sure.   Paige must be on the the pill.  Did I miss that last season or something? Also, what happened to all her time at the church and with Pastor Tim?  Based on how they started this season, the time period from when William died and this season was very short....perhaps weeks?  So, how is it that there is NO mention of church or Pastor Tim?  I thought that took much of Paige's time, but NOW just a short time later, she's ALWAYS at Stan's house?  Hmmm.....I wonder what Pastor Tim thinks of that?  I mean, he did meet Stan, the FBI agent.....I'd think he might be rather curious about that turn of events.  ALSO if Paige is so scared, WHERE IS HER FAITH IN GOD? Isn't that supposed to carry you through hard times? So, instead of praying, Paige is doing the finger technique? 

Hans.  Since he was contaminated, he would have died anyway.  Even if P & E had helped him to safety, he still would contaminated anyone else who he contacted  and still have died like William, right? So, I don't see that as P & E as cruelly murdering him.  He would have died a horrible death otherwise. 

Tuan.  He is a mystery, but, I sense that he's not really a boat person, as he said his adoptive parents viewed him.  Obviously, he was trained to play the part of a boat person, orphan, etc.  but, he really is something different. He's a trained spy.  Soviet?  I guess.  The North Vietnamese were communist, but he could play that he was anti communist if his family was from the south, professionals and wealthy, who were murdered by the the North. 

Stan.  I agree that the new lady friend seems suspicious.  I've often wondered why the Center didn't send someone in to snoop on Stan, but, if they did and the FBI got wind of it, there would be a huge investigation into ALL of Stan's associations INCLUDING HIS NEIGHBORS and best friend Philip.  So, I HOPE this woman is not KGB.  But, even if she is sent in by FBI, she's going to report Stan's best friend Philip as a person to check out, right?  Not good.  I hope she's a red herring. 

[JennyMominFL]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Japan and Germany received significant US aid to rebuild, but I don't think that happened with Russia.  Feel free to correct me.  I don't feel like googling, but I'm sure of the Germany and Japan aid.  I think we parted ways with Russia fairly early on after the war.

 

 

4 hours ago, albaniantv said:

We have to still be in 1984 because Chernenko's picture was on the wall tonight. Next up, Gorbachev in early 85 when Chernenko dies in office, just like his short lived predecessor, a KGB spook called Andropov.

Too tired to google but am pretty sure it was Stalin who would not let USSR or EE satellites get aid through our Marshall Plan. Hence all that concrete bloc architecture.

I've studied this a lot in the last few years as my specialty is 20th Century European History. We were not really being altruistic and nice with the Marshall plan.  The USA was deathly afraid that other devastated western countries were going to go communist. Most importantly, this included West Germany, our buffer. The USA saw what was happening in Austria, which while initially divided into 4 sectors like Germany, was under Soviet Control until 1955. In short some western countries with strong communist parties, looked like they might be desperate enough to go Communist.

   SO in comes the Marshall Plan saying,"Please don't go commie and we will help you, We  promise". On the other side the USSR viewed this as a Capitalist plot to undermine them. The capitalist west was dangling carrots to get countries back in the fold and the Soviets didn't like it. The Marshall Plan was one of the primary reason the cold war heated up..

Edited March 15, 2017 by JennyMominFL

[SlackerInc]

1 hour ago, Emeraldcity said:

The communists did not kill Tuans parents the Americans did by bombing them. We dont known whether his family were communists before their deaths but he certainly is now.

Right.  But the thing he said to Philip when they were clearing out the gutters was confusingly written.  Philip expressed concern that Tuan's cover might not hold up to close scrutiny, and in response Tuan said "I'm like one of them.  Do you know what the Communists did to my country?"  Which I guess is Tuan explaining how he would deflect suspicion, by insisting he is anticommunist?  But how would that help, if his actual cover had been blown?  And "one of" whom, exactly?  That definitely could have been written more clearly.

45 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I knew Stan's girlfriend was going to be significant as soon as I saw the actress playing her, plus all the build up before we met her. 

I wouldn't be so sure.  Remember, Stan had a girlfriend before, and she got quite a bit of screen time for a while but then just faded away, with no significant impact on the overall arc of the series.

[kay1864]

11 hours ago, gwhh said:

Where pastor Groovey hair at?   Where are (all) of Phillips sons at??  Where the mail robot at?  

More important, what happened to Philip's Camaro?

[shura]

1 minute ago, SlackerInc said:

Right.  But the thing he said to Philip when they were clearing out the gutters was confusingly written.  Philip expressed concern that Tuan's cover might not hold up to close scrutiny, and in response Tuan said "I'm like one of them.  Do you know what the Communists did to my country?"  Which I guess is Tuan explaining how he would deflect suspicion, by insisting he is anticommunist?  But how would that help, if his actual cover had been blown?  And "one of" whom, exactly?  That definitely could have been written more clearly.

It's not for when his cover gets blown. They were talking about a specific scenario where the FBI comes knocking on the Eckerts' door to check them out on account of their hanging out with the Morozovs. They see a Vietnamese kid, they pigeonhole him like that, and he plays along by saying those things.

[Kathemy]

I am starting to wonder if the real shocker twist of this season will in fact be Stan turning on his employers.

[JennyMominFL]

8 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

More important, what happened to Philip's Camaro?

And where is the Mail Robot? I need to know he's OK

[One Imaginary Girl]

I wouldn't say that the KGB has Elizabeth and Philip working Stan.  The Beemans coincidentally moved across the street from where the Jennings family already were living.  It's not like they are keeping their eye on Stan but that they're trying to keep his eye off their activities.

[SunnyBeBe]

15 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

I am starting to wonder if the real shocker twist of this season will in fact be Stan turning on his employers.

I find that intriguing, but, I just can't envision Stan doing that.  He came awfully close to a betrayal with Nina, but, he would not betray his country.  While he respects Oleg, I can't see him taking measures to help him that are outside legal bounds.  He's done about all that he can now.  Would he try to warn Oleg?  I just don't see it.  I think he knows that would be considered treasonous.   I think that would be really out of his character.   Now, I do wonder if he will open up to Philip about his worries and then Philip has to decide if they should inform the Center about it.  But, that option is very risky, because regardless, if Stan is compromised, God help all those around him, because they will certainly come under tight scrutiny. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[SlackerInc]

12 minutes ago, shura said:

It's not for when his cover gets blown. They were talking about a specific scenario where the FBI comes knocking on the Eckerts' door to check them out on account of their hanging out with the Morozovs. They see a Vietnamese kid, they pigeonhole him like that, and he plays along by saying those things.

Okay...I mean, that certainly fits the overall plot best, fits best with what we've seen of Tuan in general.  But here's the whole exchange (the part I thought was relevant, anyhow):

Quote

 

P: They show up at our door one day, you feel good?

T: Yeah.

P: I mean, I think everything we've done will hold up, but, um, we never know how deep a check they might run.

T: If it doesn't hold?

P: (hesitates)

T: If it's just me home, you don't have to worry.

P: No, no, that's not what I mean.  I--

T: I'm like one of them.  You know what the communists did to my country?

P: OK.

 

"If it doesn't hold?" is what I interpreted as "if our cover is blown".  What do you think he meant by that?  I also wonder what Philip meant by "that's not what I mean".  What's not what he meant?  And "I'm like one of them" is still a strange way to put it.  A teenaged "boat person" refugee from Vietnam is "like one of" a group of FBI agents?  Even if he just means "to them, we're all anticommunists", that is, again, a strange way to put it.  And we've seen how many people are confused by this scene: it needed a rewrite (or, honestly, it could have just been edited out as I don't see it as crucial).

[JennyMominFL]

2 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

Okay...I mean, that certainly fits the overall plot best, fits best with what we've seen of Tuan in general.  But here's the whole exchange (the part I thought was relevant, anyhow):

"If it doesn't hold?" is what I interpreted as "if our cover is blown".  What do you think he meant by that?  I also wonder what Philip meant by "that's not what I mean".  What's not what he meant?  And "I'm like one of them" is still a strange way to put it.  A teenaged "boat person" refugee from Vietnam is "like one of" a group of FBI agents?  Even if he just means "to them, we're all anticommunists", that is, again, a strange way to put it.  And we've seen how many people are confused by this scene: it needed a rewrite (or, honestly, it could have just been edited out as I don't see it as crucial).

Was he a boat child, or was he a rescued child? He could have been one of the 10,000 plus kids from Operation BabyLift

[SunnyBeBe]

I didn't think Tuan's dialogue was confusing.  We just don't know the details of how he was trained and by whom.  

Stan pointed out again that Gaad's death should be investigated.  He called it murder, I think.  Just what does he think they are going to be able to conclude about it?  Obviously, Gaad either killed himself trying to escape, either because he knew they might kill him or he didn't want to be tortured into providing them information.  They don't really think it was your run of the mill robbers, do they?

If Tuan were an actual boat child or rescued baby, he would have lived in the care of American social services and foster parents.  He obviously was in the care of something like the Center.  So, I can't envision he really came to American as he is portraying. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[SlackerInc]

He did have foster parents, as he described earlier in that same conversation.  Unless you think that was some kind of setup too?

[Kathemy]

13 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I find that intriguing, but, I just can't envision Stan doing that.  He came awfully close to a betrayal with Nina, but, he would not betray his country.  While he respects Oleg, I can't see him taking measures to help him that are outside legal bounds.  He's done about all that he can now.  Would he try to warn Oleg?  I just don't see it.  I think he knows that would be considered treasonous.   I think that would be really out of his character.   Now, I do wonder if he will open up to Philip about his worries and then Philip has to decide if they should inform the Center about it.  But, that option is very risky, because regardless, if Stan is compromised, God help all those around him, because they will certainly come under tight scrutiny. 

My feeling is rooted in the fact that I see Oleg and Stan as very similar people. They both have a private "sense of honor" and seem to really want to "do the right thing". Oleg did that when warning Stan. I could see Stan returning the favor in some manner.

14 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

Okay...I mean, that certainly fits the overall plot best, fits best with what we've seen of Tuan in general.  But here's the whole exchange (the part I thought was relevant, anyhow):

"If it doesn't hold?" is what I interpreted as "if our cover is blown".  What do you think he meant by that?  I also wonder what Philip meant by "that's not what I mean".  What's not what he meant?  And "I'm like one of them" is still a strange way to put it.  A teenaged "boat person" refugee from Vietnam is "like one of" a group of FBI agents?  Even if he just means "to them, we're all anticommunists", that is, again, a strange way to put it.  And we've seen how many people are confused by this scene: it needed a rewrite (or, honestly, it could have just been edited out as I don't see it as crucial).

I wasn't confused by the scene at all. The "you know what the communists did to my country" line was clear sarcasm.

[SlackerInc]

2 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

I wasn't confused by the scene at all. The "you know what the communists did to my country" line was clear sarcasm.

Some people were, as we can see in comments, genuinely confused by this as to which side he was on.  I was not.  It was already too clearly established before that, IMO.  So my take on it was more of a "meta" take, that "boy, they really kind of garbled this up in the script", taking me out of the moment.  I stand by what I said about it upthread:

Quote

But the thing he said to Philip when they were clearing out the gutters was confusingly written.  Philip expressed concern that Tuan's cover might not hold up to close scrutiny, and in response Tuan said "I'm like one of them.  Do you know what the Communists did to my country?"  Which I guess is Tuan explaining how he would deflect suspicion, by insisting he is anticommunist?  But how would that help, if his actual cover had been blown?  And "one of" whom, exactly?  That definitely could have been written more clearly.

[shura]

16 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

Okay...I mean, that certainly fits the overall plot best, fits best with what we've seen of Tuan in general.  But here's the whole exchange (the part I thought was relevant, anyhow):

"If it doesn't hold?" is what I interpreted as "if our cover is blown".  What do you think he meant by that?  I also wonder what Philip meant by "that's not what I mean".  What's not what he meant?  And "I'm like one of them" is still a strange way to put it.  A teenaged "boat person" refugee from Vietnam is "like one of" a group of FBI agents?  Even if he just means "to them, we're all anticommunists", that is, again, a strange way to put it.  And we've seen how many people are confused by this scene: it needed a rewrite (or, honestly, it could have just been edited out as I don't see it as crucial).

Ok, how's this:

Quote

P: They show up at our door one day, you feel good?

T: Yeah.

P: I mean, I think everything we've done will hold up [so they shouldn't need to come], but, um, we never know how deep a check they might run.

T: If it doesn't hold?

P: (hesitates)

T: If it's just me home, you don't have to worry.

P: No, no, that's [you not being able to hold up if they come] not what I mean.  I--

T: I'm like one of them.  You know what the communists did to my country?

P: OK.

But yes, they could have written it better. Especially with the foster parents - if it's just his story, why would he need to tell it Philip and Elizabeth as if it's true?

[SlackerInc]

What does Tuan's "if it doesn't hold?" mean, though?  You didn't address that part, which is the biggest problem for me.  If the cover doesn't hold, telling a nice story about being anticommunist is not going to be enough.  And I still don't understand what Philip did mean (he never got to say), or why Tuan would say "one of them".

But yeah, we agree that they could have written it better (or, as I say, just cut it).

And I've got to assume the foster parents were real, and that he has basically been groomed/recruited within the U.S., not that he's an undercover agent from the Vietnamese intelligence services.

[ajsnaves]

Not to far from where this farm supposedly lies, just down the road a few miles probably, is Scott Air Force Base.  About 48 years ago my father was stationed there, met and married my mother, and they had my older brother.  Somehow, from what they tell me, the timing of that all kept him from being sent overseas.  He and his friends, who also avoided SE Asia, always joked that their job was to protect "Silver Creek" from the communists.  And they were apparently successful. Until early1984 when one of the farms was infiltrated by the Russians.  I'm almost afraid to tell Dad.  It might drive him to start drinking. (Earlier today than he normally does)

If they are going to film this show in the fall, why don't they just set it in the fall?  Do they think we are too stupid figure it out?  This episode begins literally where last week's ends, after they rebury William. It is February.  Gabriel says Pasha's dad is going to Illinois on the 29th, presumably that is February 29th.  Southern Illinois is not going to be lush and green, with leafy trees in late February/early March.  But in October it will be.  I don't usually let things like that bother me, but I think my familiarity with the area was a bit too much.

Other than that, I enjoyed the episode greatly.  Tuan worries me.  Paige still annoys me, but that is par the course for teenagers.  I kinda hope they spend the entire season saying "Where's Henry." Each time coming up with increasingly ridiculous locations for him to be, with no explanation why he's there.

[kay1864]

5 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

[Stan's new lady is] way too hot for Stan.

I was stunned to find out that Laurie Holden is 47!  Looks 10 years younger to me.

(Noah is 52 btw)

[gwhh]

Misha actually going to Belgrade for the Olympics and than trying to get out of the soviet block from that area.  Is great trade craft.  There will be a TON of people from all over the world.  In that area!  Many, many, foreign people.  The commie will not want to look to heavy handled to the world press.  So they will go easy on passport controls and entrances and things like that.  It will be much easier for him to get out from that area.   

[SunnyBeBe]

24 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

He did have foster parents, as he described earlier in that same conversation.  Unless you think that was some kind of setup too?

Yeah, I do believe that he had those parents he described to Philip.  I suppose the question is when was he trained and by whom.  I just find it unlikely that he would have been turned and trained so intensively AFTER being a regular refugee and living with caring American parents.  I would suspect that he was turned, trained prior to that, at an early age and then sent to America to get his cover established in an American home. He was able to fit in as a younger person due to his appearance.  Time will tell, though.  He has no empathy for his friend, though.  That tells me that he must have suffered a lot of cruelty as some point. 

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, SlackerInc said:

I wouldn't be so sure.  Remember, Stan had a girlfriend before, and she got quite a bit of screen time for a while but then just faded away, with no significant impact on the overall arc of the series.

My suspicions are more about this specific actress and her particular talents (if you've watched The Walking Dead, you know what I mean). Would be quite a waste if she was just a pretty girlfriend with a handful of scenes.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Knuckles said:

Henry might as well go into witness protection, he seems to have been written out of the plot.

It's just the opposite, imo. They've dropped two big hints that Henry has something going on that we'll find out about later.

10 hours ago, Knuckles said:

He is the embodiment of biting the hand that feeds you. And why the Russians? Why not head back to Vietnam? I'm puzzled by him.

I thought that was very intentional that he reacted to needing help but hating it. Made sense, really. Similar to the USSR, too. It's humiliating having to get grain from the US. As Tuan said, even when his host family was nice to him it just made it more humiliating because he just saw how they thought they were being so nice.

10 hours ago, benteen said:

Elizabeth and Philip are terrible parents and Philip used to be a good one.  This whole Paige thing is going to blow up in their faces I have no doubt.

I don't see why they're being so terrible. Paige doesn't want to blow up her own life so they gave her a practical way to deal with problems that will come up that she refuses to see are going to come up. The situation is what it is.

10 hours ago, gwhh said:

 

Holy moly.  Stan new babe works for the KGB. Her job is to turn Paige into KGB assets. Since mom and dad will not.

 

How many people have allegedly had this job so far? Why would some chick at the gym be able to turn Paige into a KGB asset where her parents would not? Everybody is not a spy and Paige isn't the jewel in the crown of the KGB. She's coming along fine with her parents and has no reason to care about this woman at all.

10 hours ago, rose711 said:

 

Sorry I don't accept a mother telling her daughter nothing about sex except she does care if she has sex, she just wants her to not be emotional.  And then expect a young girl with no real training to pull it off? 

 

What was surprising was that they didn't say anything about birth control. It's 1984 and they're sex workers. Plus Philip got his girlfriend pregnant when he was Paige's age. Maybe tell her you'll supply her with birth control so she better not start taking risks there too?

Also, Elizabeth didn't tell her not to be emotional about sex. She said the opposite, that sex was emotional, and if she was going to have sex with THIS BOY whose father is an FBI agent she has to be extra sure not to slip, she needs to be sure not to do that. That's not using her as an asset any more than Philip's mother sending him to work after school was using him as a servant. If she wants to keep her life she needs to keep her mouth shut.

They also kind of told her they have sex for their job. Paige didn't notice that part but it's not like P&E seem ashamed of that part of it!

10 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

I get it, he's angsty all up inside, but someone his age should look around and thank his lucky stars. He's too old to think the USSR was any kind of a wonderful place compared to the USA.

Pretty sure he's being encouraged in this line of thinking by Tuan, and more importantly, it's not about the USSR or the USA, it's about his father. Dad's adamant about hating everything about the USSR and telling everyone their country is inferior. This is an obvious way for Pasha to express his anger and frustration. After all, it's not just that his father is saying that there are things in the US that are better for them, he's encouraging them to assimilate asap. If Paige gets frustrated at her mother not wanting her to date Matthew, imagine how frustrated a kid must be after coming home struggling through school in English and having his dad scold him for speaking Russian. It's not unusual for people to react to people telling them how grateful they should be to their saviors by hating the saviors even more, as we see also with Tuan. That's also possibly a psychological reason the Soviets are ready to believe the Americans are really poisoning them with their food.

10 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

They think Paige is confused by sexy feelings? Stan's noticing her problems because she looks like she's growing an ulcer with every breath. Teach her how to deal with the stress, not just the lying, jeez.

The lying is the threat, though. They're not saying sexy feelings are the thing that's stressing her out, they're just worried that the sexy feelings will make her feel like it's safe and right to blab to Matthew about her stress. I think when it comes to the stress it's hard for them to much relate because they lived and live under similar levels of stress. So their priority is making sure she doesn't blow up their life. The fighting is Elizabeth's possibly misguided way of helping her deal with the fear that's running her into the closet, I think.

10 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

*Edit: He said a word that means "nonsense". "NONSENSE" IS BEING TRANSLATED AS "BULLSHIT"? Does no one think of running this by more than one translator to be accurate?

They run it by two translators, one who lives in the US now and one who's still in Russia. I don't know why they choose to keep things clean, but maybe they made that choice for the very reason you described, that they didn't think Pasha would say something vulgar enough that would make his father scold him for that? 

3 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Wait, what?  Like one of whom?  

Tuan.  He is a mystery, but, I sense that he's not really a boat person, as he said his adoptive parents viewed him.  Obviously, he was trained to play the part of a boat person, orphan, etc.  but, he really is something different. He's a trained spy.  Soviet?  I guess.  

Why can't he be a boat person? He might have been trained after he got here. His living with a loving American family doesn't mean he couldn't want to be a spy against them. The whole radicalization of angry young men is pretty relevant these days. People say that about them too and continue to think it's only men coming into a new country now that are a threat.

I wouldn't say that the KGB has Elizabeth and Philip working Stan.  The Beemans coincidentally moved across the street from where the Jennings family already were living.  It's not like they are keeping their eye on Stan but that they're trying to keep his eye off their activities.

They are also working Stan since he's there. Philip sends reports about him to the Centre.

What does Tuan's "if it doesn't hold?" mean, though?  You didn't address that part, which is the biggest problem for me.  If the cover doesn't hold, telling a nice story about being anticommunist is not going to be enough.  And I still don't understand what Philip did mean (he never got to say), or why Tuan would say "one of them".

I think he was saying that if the stuff they did to make the FBI not need to come to the house doesn't hold and Tuan is there by himself, it's no problem because he'll sell the story. He's "one of them" because he hates Communists or pretends he does. If the preliminary stuff doesn't keep the FBI away, he'll talk to them.

If they are going to film this show in the fall, why don't they just set it in the fall?  Do they think we are too stupid figure it out? 

Because it would be far more ridiculous to have to write their storylines around the weather when they shoot. Why should they waste a year of storytime every season just so the weather fits? Much easier to just ask the audience to ignore the weather in the outdoor shots.

ALSO if Paige is so scared, WHERE IS HER FAITH IN GOD? Isn't that supposed to carry you through hard times?

Sure it's supposed to, but that doesn't mean it does. When Paige told Pastor Tim about her parents she specifically said she'd tried praying on it and it didn't help. She went through a phase where prayer seemed to fix everything, but since then things have gotten harder and more complicated, the church has become a burden (she mentioned it last week--she's still going) and Pastor Tim and his wife have both betrayed her. She might be still praying about this stuff, but it's not helping. 

That's another thing we always see on the show. Someone else can tell you the thing they think is the answer (whether it's prayer or learning to fight or whatever) but everyone has to find the thing that works for them.

[JyDanzig]

2 minutes ago, ajsnaves said:

If they are going to film this show in the fall, why don't they just set it in the fall?  Do they think we are too stupid figure it out?  This episode begins literally where last week's ends, after they rebury William. It is February.  Gabriel says Pasha's dad is going to Illinois on the 29th, presumably that is February 29th.  Southern Illinois is not going to be lush and green, with leafy trees in late February/early March.  But in October it will be.  I don't usually let things like that bother me, but I think my familiarity with the area was a bit too much.

I'm also finding it actively distracting.  I came to this board just to ask "does anyone understand where we are in time right now?"  I understand you can't always get the schedule of your actual TV production to sync up perfectly with what you want to represent on screen, but every exterior in these two episodes is shot in a way to emphasize FALL, FALL, FALL -- and yet Elizabeth references watching the (presumably Winter) Olympics, and were those St. Patrick's Day decorations in the restaurant scene last night?  I'm baffled.

If this is supposed to be February, these producers/directors have made some terrible choices.  Like, do not put Gabriel and Claudia's meeting last week in a park, choose a location that's not so leafy.  Don't use so many wide shots filled with fall foliage in that car sequence last night.  Etc etc.  If they want us to believe it's February, don't lean into the visuals of fall so heavily.

(When did last season leave off?  January 1984?)

[dubbel zout]

7 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

He has no empathy for his friend, though.  That tells me that he must have suffered a lot of cruelty as some point. 

His village was bombed to smithereens and he lost his entire family, save for his grandmother. That's pretty cruel, IMO. I don't know what Tuan is trying to achieve, but his motivations aren't a puzzle to me.

I also laughed when he asked for the dinner leftovers. And his expression of pleasure when Elizabeth gave them to him was great. Just because he thinks Americans are coddled babies doesn't mean he can't enjoy those advantages himself.

[shura]

38 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

What does Tuan's "if it doesn't hold?" mean, though?  You didn't address that part, which is the biggest problem for me.  If the cover doesn't hold, telling a nice story about being anticommunist is not going to be enough.  And I still don't understand what Philip did mean (he never got to say), or why Tuan would say "one of them".

Well, maybe Tuan just means "What do you mean, 'if it doesn't hold'? I thought we were all professionals here. What kind of bullshit operation is this?" And Philip hesitates and says nothing because Tuan got him there?

I actually kind of like that we don't know everything about Tuan and have to make guesses and assumptions. It's like real life.

Edited March 15, 2017 by shura

[SunnyBeBe]

Elizabeth said that Han's sister was scheduled to come for a visit soon. I wonder if she will be brought into the mix. How much does she know and is she coming via The Center?

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I wonder if she will be brought into the mix. How much does she know and is she coming via The Center?

There's no reason to think she's got anything to do with the Centre at all. That's probably why Hans hadn't spoken to his family. I think the point was just that his family would never see him again, not that his sister would be a spy too.

21 minutes ago, JyDanzig said:

(When did last season leave off?  January 1984?)

Last season left off in January, night of the Superbowl. Now it's February.

[tennisgurl]

I'm really interested to see more what Tusns deal is. He seems to be resentful towards both the communists AND the West, and I could understand that (with both countries going to war in his country), but then why is he working with the USSR? I'm sure he has reasons we will figure out later, and I'm interested in hearing them.

I can get P+E being annoyed with the defector guy going on about how the USSR is The Worst, even if he is totally justified in his complaints. I think P+E tend to be very nostalgic about their homeland, being as they've been in the US, suppressing everything about their true heritage and past, and they just haven't been around in awhile. They remember the good things and the principles, but don't really know how things are now, or are just downplaying it due to their nostalgia. I get it. I get nostalgic for my hometown time to time, thinking about the good times I had growing up there, even though I would never REALLY want to go back, and I know for a fact its a really boring town with a crap economy and more meth labs than decent places to eat. And that's just a short plane ride home to visit my parents, and I can talk about it all I want! I hope nothing bad happens to the defector family. I'm sure it will, but I can hope.

Poor Oleg. He is all kinds of screwed, just for trying to do the right thing. He is smart enough and decent enough to actually make a real difference in his government, but now, with the CIA looking to trap him, it looks like this isn't going to turn out well for him. "Hey Oleg, we totally appreciate the huge solid you did us. Now, could you please continue to help us unwillingly, or we will make sure you and your family get a one way trip to the gulag?" His poor mom. She will probably lose both her sons to political bullshit now. Also, shallow, but Oleg has somehow gotten even HOTTER this season. Damn.

I appreciate Stan trying to have Oleg's back, even though it looks like he wont be able to help much. It also seems like his bosses just don't Get It. They seem to think Stan is making a big deal about Oleg possibly getting killed or worse because he's trying to make a power play, or because he's pissed at his new bosses, not just because Stan really just respects Oleg and doesn't want to see him get killed for doing the right thing. Even his partner was just like "that sucks that your asset will get killed, but that's how the game is played", even if he actually was sympathetic. I'm thinking that Laurie might actually be CIA, and is trying to suss out how much he actually is willing to go to the mat for Oleg. I don't think Stan will actually betray his country, but he might cross a few lines out of anger at his agency and a desire to do the right thing. Kind of like Oleg.

P+E teaching Paige to disengage during sex was just sad to me. I think they are trying to be good parents, while still being careful in the best ways they can. They aren't trying to use Paige as an asset here, they're just trying to keep their cover from being blow. A thing Paige already did once, so its an understandable worry.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, tennisgurl said:

 

I'm really interested to see more what Tusns deal is. He seems to be resentful towards both the communists AND the West, and I could understand that (with both countries going to war in his country), but then why is he working with the USSR? I'm sure he has reasons we will figure out later, and I'm interested in hearing them.

 

He's not resentful towards the communist. He was being sarcastic about that. He's not only working with the USSR, he's more of a hardliner than P&E.

[Bannon]

OK, so which side invented the weather machine, that causes Illinois and Moscow to be green in February? Make it the new story arc for this season! 

[shura]

51 minutes ago, ajsnaves said:

Not to far from where this farm supposedly lies, just down the road a few miles probably, is Scott Air Force Base.  About 48 years ago my father was stationed there, met and married my mother, and they had my older brother.  Somehow, from what they tell me, the timing of that all kept him from being sent overseas.  He and his friends, who also avoided SE Asia, always joked that their job was to protect "Silver Creek" from the communists.  And they were apparently successful. Until early1984 when one of the farms was infiltrated by the Russians. 

A farm was infiltrated by the Russians? How? Why?

13 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I can get P+E being annoyed with the defector guy going on about how the USSR is The Worst, even if he is totally justified in his complaints. I think P+E tend to be very nostalgic about their homeland, being as they've been in the US, suppressing everything about their true heritage and past, and they just haven't been around in awhile. They remember the good things and the principles, but don't really know how things are now, or are just downplaying it due to their nostalgia. I get it.

Honestly, if the guy goes on and on and on about how life is bad in Russia, or any other topic for that matter, and nothing else, I think anyone would get irritated. Talk about other things as well, will ya.

[RedHawk]

For date signifiers we had St. Patrick's Day decorations at the Bennigan's restaurant and that holiday was a Saturday in 1984. So we're either in mid or early March, or possibly Feb 29 as poster ajsnaves suggested above (1984 was a leap year).  I laughed to myself that maybe Bennigan's decor is ALWAYS St. Patrick's Day, at the least they're likely to start the celebrations right after the new year begins, and ramp it up more after Valentine's Day.

[henripootel]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I wonder who she is?  Maybe Mi6 if they suspected infiltration of the FBI that was impacting them, but I have no idea if Briton would spy on someone in the FBI...seems like another stretch.

I'm guessing she's GRU, Soviet military intelligence.  They operated independently of the KGB and had somewhat overlapping areas of interest.  I remember reading some former KGB officer's account of brushing up against someone fishy in the course of his duties and kicking it up to the Centre.  Word came back that this person was indeed part of an operation being conducted by the 'neighbors' and to back off.

It would fit that the GRU would go after Stan, if they could get access to Phillip's reports about him.  They might find him ripe for recruitment, putting Phillip in exactly the same situation as Stan (with Oleg).  Jeepers creepers, this show has mastered dramatic tension.  Nothing else I know even comes close. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Recall Stan telling Philip which colleges Matthew had applied to? Hmmmm....can Philip get him in somehow?  Is Matthew a senior? That's one way to keep Matthew away from Paige. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[dubbel zout]

20 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I think P+E tend to be very nostalgic about their homeland

I think they are also true believers (to different degrees, to be sure, but true believers nonetheless) in communism, so they're impatient with anyone who doesn't share that worldview.

22 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, shallow, but Oleg has somehow gotten even HOTTER this season. Damn.

I know. Mild resignation looks really good on him.

[SlackerInc]

45 minutes ago, stagmania said:

My suspicions are more about this specific actress and her particular talents (if you've watched The Walking Dead, you know what I mean). Would be quite a waste if she was just a pretty girlfriend with a handful of scenes.

I watched nearly four seasons of TWD before I gave up on the show, so I definitely remember "Andrea".  But looking at her filmography, she hasn't done anything the past couple years except a guest appearance on one episode of Chicago Fire.  So I could easily imagine her just being cast to be an ordinary, non-spy girlfriend, similar to the last one.  Obviously she could also be more, but I just don't think it's as sure a thing as many are making it out to be.  (Wasn't Stan the one who hit her up for conversation, rather than vice versa?)

[RedHawk]

I'm annoyed by the Paige-Matthew storyline. It's so boring to use the old "forbid the relationship and it will grow stronger" trope. Maybe my credulity is strained because unfortunately I don't see anything attractive about Matthew (the character, not the actor himself) and their sudden "puppy love" just doesn't work for me. And why don't they go on actual dates if they're so into each other -- why hang at Stan's ALL the time? Ok, it's only been like 4 weeks (so 4 Saturday nights) since their interest in each other intensified, but the show simply isn't selling me on this relationship being so important to Paige. I guess I'm supposed to see it standing in for all the other free choices she thinks will no longer be hers. Maybe my ultimate problem is I find this teenage drama completely uncompelling in a show where the writing has otherwise been so excellent. 

[tennisgurl]

38 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

He's not resentful towards the communist. He was being sarcastic about that. He's not only working with the USSR, he's more of a hardliner than P&E.

I guess I just didn't feel like it was totally sarcasm, so I was confused. He does seem to be even more sick of America than even P+E, so I'm looking forward to seeing that interaction. I wonder if it will be another variation of that girl that Elizabeth recruited awhile ago, who was so angry at the US government that she couldn't carry out her missions, and was finally killed because of it. Maybe he's too much of a hardliner to be a real asset.

Really, I'm surprised no one has just dropped dead of a massive stress ulcer yet. Everyone always looks so stressed out and tired, especially the last few seasons.

Edited March 15, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Chaos Theory]

I like Mathew and Paige mostly because I find it amusing that Paige is waylaying a couple of super spies in such simple and American ways.  First she finds religion then she finds love.  She has been the one person they haven't been able to mind game.  Hell she's been mind gaming them.

You almost have to feel sorry for those murderous duplicitous Russian spies.  Almost.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Tetraneutron]

3 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

 But I don't agree that they would have ended up wanting her to do almost any of what her parents do.  Having a second generation illegal deep inside a sensitive agency like the FBI or CIA would be so valuable, they would be more than happy to have her simply provide secret briefings to a handler from time to time, and leave other jobs to first-gen illegals like the digging helpers, the guy who was switching off with Elizabeth tailing the car, etc.  

At first, that as the plan as Claudia described it. Paige would be raised to see America as the enemy and the USSR as her homeland, get a sensitive job in the CIA or similar, and destroy America from the inside. On paper she's perfect. Smart. serious, ideologically compatible (they hope - she belongs to a liberal church, as responsive to the idea of her parents as civil rights activists), responsible, perceptive enough to figure out something was wrong with her parents. So now it's a question of getting her to be tough like P and E were as kids and not a soft useless whiny blob like Pacha. Thus the making her work Pastor Tim and teaching her how to fight and exposing her to just enough of their lives that she's forced to make a choice but not so much she's scared off. The point isn't she'll ever be digging graves, but that such things don't horrify her or make her sleep in her closet. 

Getting her into the CIA is the relatively easy part. Getting her to want to be a spy and put her life and her loved ones's lives at risk for the country she grew up seeing as the enemy is the hard part. 

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I find that intriguing, but, I just can't envision Stan doing that.  He came awfully close to a betrayal with Nina, but, he would not betray his country.  While he respects Oleg, I can't see him taking measures to help him that are outside legal bounds.  He's done about all that he can now. 

I thought Stan's motivation was a combination of genuinely not wanting the US to hurt Oleg after he put himself at risk to do something genuinely good for America, and that if the US starts digging too deep into Oleg, Stan is deeply. deeply, fucked for everything he and Oleg did concerning Nina. He came really close to spying for the Soviets and he did an extralegal operation with Oleg to help Nina. He does NOT want his bosses to know about this. 

31 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

 

And I've got to assume the foster parents were real, and that he has basically been groomed/recruited within the U.S., not that he's an undercover agent from the Vietnamese intelligence services.

I'm still confused by Tuan. It doesn't make sense that the USSR went around recruiting random children adopted by nice Seattle liberals to change their identities and go deep undercover for a country they had no affiliation with. Philip and Elizabeth were chosen from the worst parts of the USSR and trained intensively for years. While there are Americans (like Gregory) who would support the USSR/communism in general and choose to spy on their homeland, none of them were children. Especially since the whole theme about weak American children and tough non-American children is leading me to think Tuan IS as young as he looks. I'm curious where they go with him but I like there's a character on the show even more hardcore than Elizabeth. 

Also, anyone think it's kind of funny that the people the Soviet agents (or whatever Tuan is) see as soft and weak are the ones born and raised in the USSR and love it, while the Americans are the tough ones? How does that play into how P and (especially) E see the world? 

[dubbel zout]

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

He does seem to be even more sick of America than even P+E

I get the feeling Tuan would be critical of anywhere he lives. He got a really raw deal earlier in life and likely never properly processed it.

7 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

You almost have to feel sorry for those murderous duplicitous Russian spies.  Almost.

Teenagers: The biggest threats of all. Hee.

[ChromaKelly]

I'm already nervous for Oleg. I don't want anything to happen to him. I don't think the message was actually from Stan. The CIA was invoking Stan's name as a way in.
Where does the show film? That was way too hilly for St. Clair County, IL. It's very flat. I don't mind the not-so-accurate seasons but the fall foliage was too obvious to ignore. 
How old is Paige? I guess it's a difference of P&E being Russian spies and not typical American parents. I'm a couple years younger than Paige and was still getting the save yourself messages. No one's parents were like go ahead, have sex.
I'm also thinking there's something up with Stan's new girlfriend. 

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I'm annoyed by the Paige-Matthew storyline. It's so boring to use the old "forbid the relationship and it will grow stronger" trope. Maybe my credulity is strained because unfortunately I don't see anything attractive about Matthew (the character, not the actor himself) and their sudden "puppy love" just doesn't work for me. And why don't they go on actual dates if they're so into each other -- why hang at Stan's ALL the time? Ok, it's only been like 4 weeks (so 4 Saturday nights) since their interest in each other intensified, but the show simply isn't selling me on this relationship being so important to Paige. I guess I'm supposed to see it standing in for all the other free choices she thinks will no longer be hers. Maybe my ultimate problem is I find this teenage drama completely uncompelling in a show where the writing has otherwise been so excellent. 

The Family Beemen is the death knell to good heavily serialized television drama! Sad Sack Stan waving around a sixpack, practically screaming "Won't somebody talk to me!", or sprinting across the street like a 14 year old to tell his bestie about the girl he has a crush on, makes me want to fast forward, or at least turn down the sound, so I can just read the dialogue on close captioned, and not have to actually hear it. The Matthew-Paige scenes make me wince as well. Transferring Stan to Des Moines, to head up crop circle investigations, would improve the show quite a bit; he could be happy because it would be close to his son, who chooses the University of Minnesota.....   

[SunnyBeBe]

20 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I'm annoyed by the Paige-Matthew storyline. It's so boring to use the old "forbid the relationship and it will grow stronger" trope. Maybe my credulity is strained because unfortunately I don't see anything attractive about Matthew (the character, not the actor himself) and their sudden "puppy love" just doesn't work for me. And why don't they go on actual dates if they're so into each other -- why hang at Stan's ALL the time? Ok, it's only been like 4 weeks (so 4 Saturday nights) since their interest in each other intensified, but the show simply isn't selling me on this relationship being so important to Paige. I guess I'm supposed to see it standing in for all the other free choices she thinks will no longer be hers. Maybe my ultimate problem is I find this teenage drama completely uncompelling in a show where the writing has otherwise been so excellent. 

Good points, although, I do think that Matthew is cute and can imagine having a crush on him at that age.  I do find the teenage handsy scenes rather offputting when juxtaposed with those of espionage. lol  It's just a storyline I wish they had not gone with.  Oh well....it's done.  They wouldn't listen to me! lol

Did you catch that look that Elizabeth gave in the restaurant while dining? It's as if she could relate to a rebellious teenager.  She could sympathize with the dad, despite his sentiments towards her homeland.  Which leads me to another question.  WHY DID TUAN not understand Russian?  If someone like The Center trained him, why would he not even understand Russian?  Hmmm.....more questions. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Chaos Theory]

10 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 

Did you catch that look that Elizabeth gave in the restaurant while dining? It's as if she could relate to a rebellious teenager.  She could sympathize with the dad, despite his sentiments towards her homeland.  Which leads me to another question.  WHY DID TUAN not understand Russian?  If someone like The Center trained him, why would he not even understand Russian?  Hmmm.....more questions. 

Why are people assuming the Center trained him?  P&E have been collecting assets from all over the world and country for decades.  They could have been introduced to Tuan by a friend of a friend and trained him themselves. Hell he could be untrained or be from one of the splinter groups like that girl from South America.  We haven't been given enough information but I doubt the Center trained him.   At best someone from the Center might have sent him to someone to train.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Chaos Theory