“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

Myrelle · December 24, 2019

50 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Every other episode in the season has Sam as the one at fault.

Except for the ones that told us Dean had to "let Sam go or grow up" and/or how "hard he was" on Poor Sam-especially at the end of that season when they were headed towards the end of a 5 season long arc that saw them pull that shit, yes, in Fallen Idols but also in Two Minutes to Midnight and the finale-just to make sure everyone knew who was really wrong within the brothers' supposed "co-dependent" relationship.

God, I hate S5 with the fire of ten thousand suns for that and I will never get over how the writers let Sam scate on all of what I saw as the important stuff within that relationship.

And they continued on with that garbage even more so with subsequent showrunners with Dabb taking it to new lows and yes, even turning Castiel into just another Sam clone in S12-15, AFAIC.

Thank God it will all be over in 12 episodes,

Spoiler

even though we're likely going to have to suffer through Dean groveling to Castiel this time instead of Sam in ep. 9.

And I'm thoroughly convinced that, more than anything else, it was this kind of shit writing for Jensen's character, along with the Dean/Michael debacle, that lead to the end of this show.

ahrtee · December 24, 2019

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

which of course he was jealous because Benny had to be hyped as awesome *eye roll* -

That's something I never understood. Who was "hyping" Benny, and what was so "awesome" about him that inspires so much hatred? Is it just the line that Dean spouted (not nearly as cruel and mean-spirited as many of the ones Sam has thrown at him over the years) about Benny being the only one who hadn't betrayed him? Which was true at the moment, and was thrown out in hurt and anger, just like Sam's various accusations at Dean. Are fans blaming him because Dean didn't tell Sam right away about him? (I can see that: "Hey, I'm back from Purgatory, with the help of a friendly vampire I brought back with me. But he's promised to go straight. What did you do all year?") So...they're angry because Benny *didn't* go bad? Because he was actually likable and not sullen/angry/manipulative? Because he was cute and had a southern accent?

I just don't understand how/when Benny was being "hyped." He was featured in 4 out of 23 episodes (all except "Taxi Driver" with him needing Dean to help him out) and a few snarky flashbacks. He was not a Marty Stu. He made no secret of the fact that he only hooked up with Dean to help him escape, and kept telling him to dump Cas. But I'm guessing that in the *whole year* that they fought their way through Purgatory Dean learned he could trust him to watch his back (whether or not because he was his ticket out). We did see flashbacks of them fighting together and helping each other. If he'd been an enemy soldier trapped together in a dangerous land, I think they would have bonded just as well.

Then when they returned, they were ready to go their separate ways except for the connection of a year's worth of fighting together, so when Benny was struggling, Dean went to help. Nothing he wouldn't do for any human he'd bonded with. Benny was having trouble fighting off his vampire urges (just like Lenore and her group), he was having a hard time fitting in, especially since he had to stay away from former friends and everyone he used to know was dead, so Dean was pretty much the only connection he had. He was lonely, he was having doubts about his ability to live among people again, and he kept turning to Dean for support till Dean told him (at Sam's insistence) to stop calling, and he finally agreed to go back to Purgatory because he knew he had no place on earth. If he were any one else, that would be a tragedy, not "awesome." So, the audience could sympathize with him. What's wrong with that?

AFAICS, Sam was jealous, and that's all. He hated the fact that he couldn't rescue Dean himself and a "monster" managed it. And he looked for anything possible to dislike about Benny because of that, and was unwilling to give him any benefit of the doubt (possibly because he was still angry over Ruby's betrayal). But that doesn't mean that the viewers have to accept his judgment, unless they're looking for some excuse for Sam's behavior.

I like interesting characters. Benny was interesting, and so was his relationship with Dean. That doesn't make him "awesome" or over-hyped. JMO, of course.

Edited December 24, 2019 by ahrtee

Bessie · December 24, 2019

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Benny was interesting, and so was his relationship with Dean.

I found him interesting in relation to Dean for about 1/4 of an episode. Which is exactly how long it took me to realize Benny was only around as an altSam, and was only going to be used as such, not as an independent character. Disappointing, because the writers had a great setup to work with and they blew it with the melodrama instead.

So, I only really felt like he was overhyped by the fans. The show telegraphed early, exactly what Benny’s role was and it played out by the numbers. Nothing particularly new or insightful and completely defined by the brothers’ relationship.

i still cannot believe the writers failed to take advantage of the purgatory story. One of my biggest disappointments of the series. Such a wide open world to play in and the writers go with “Sam’s Jealous.” That’s writing malpractice!

ETA: And, as far as I can recall, none of this melodrama served any purpose at all.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Bessie

AwesomO4000 · December 24, 2019

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Who was "hyping" Benny, and what was so "awesome" about him that inspires so much hatred?

15 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

If he were any one else, that would be a tragedy, not "awesome." So, the audience could sympathize with him. What's wrong with that?

AFAICS, Sam was jealous, and that's all. He hated the fact that he couldn't rescue Dean himself and a "monster" managed it. And he looked for anything possible to dislike about Benny because of that, and was unwilling to give him any benefit of the doubt (possibly because he was still angry over Ruby's betrayal). But that doesn't mean that the viewers have to accept his judgment, unless they're looking for some excuse for Sam's behavior.

I think that you partially answered your own question in this summary.

For me as someone who loved Sam as a character and loved the character growth he'd had in seasons 6.5 through 7, having Sam act that way seemed like it was done exactly so that there would be sympathy for Benny and make his story a "tragedy." And who in Benny's tragic story was made out to be the villain in that?

So why would I, as someone who loved Sam as a character, be happy about a character's story that turns Sam into the villain? And for what reason? What was the entire purpose of having Sam be jealous of Benny and threaten to kill him? (I had no idea, since there didn't seem to be one, and nothing came from it in terms of Sam character growth.) Because if it was mainly to garner sympathy for Benny, then for me that's an example of writers "hyping" a character - or at least trying to make that character look good - at the expense of a character who is supposed to be one of the leads and theoretically the hero of the story.

I remember in season 4 how annoyed some fans got when the writing made it look for a while like Ruby was being helpful and how Dean had to admit that she had been helpful. Well, imagine if the writing had made Dean jealous of Ruby, and then instead of Ruby turning out to be evil, she helped save Sam and/or Dean so that Dean looked like a jerk for being jealous of her and talking about killing her?

And for me, Sam wasn't even the only one made to look badly when it came to Benny. I thought that it was out of character for Dean to just dump Benny in his time of need because Sam said so. Why did the writers make Dean do that? And again, if the answer was to garner sympathy for Benny, in my opinion, that's bumping up a character at the expense of another one.

So the answer is I liked Benny just fine until part of his character's story included making Sam into the villain and Dean look like a jerk. And then the writing seemed to be trying too hard. By the time we got to the relative who was Benny's only support system after mean Dean cut him off, but then mean Sam caused her to be taken away from him, too, I was over it. And the story still had Benny rise above all that was done to him to make a heroic sacrifice. Again, at least for me, a little over the top when coupled with bad or callous behavior from the leads to further boost that character. (And a pattern Carver would repeat when Gadreel would sacrifice himself heroically the next season***.) I just am not going to be happy liking peripheral characters whose characterization is at the expense of Sam and/or Dean, and writing that appears to want me to do that - whether intentional or not - is generally going to make me balk.

Others' miles may vary, but that's generally going to be my opinion on that.

*** I mean why else have Sam, of all people, berate Dean for trying to hurt "real friend" Gadreel than to talk up Gadreel? The only character that benefited from that was Gadreel, because it criticized Dean and made Sam look like a jerk and weirdo (because yeah, it's totally normal to call the being who took over your body and used it to kill people including your innocent friend a "real friend." WtH?)

AwesomO4000 · December 24, 2019

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Except for the ones that told us Dean had to "let Sam go or grow up" and/or how "hard he was" on Poor Sam-especially at the end of that season when they were headed towards the end of a 5 season long arc that saw them pull that shit, yes, in Fallen Idols but also in Two Minutes to Midnight and the finale-just to make sure everyone knew who was really wrong within the brothers' supposed "co-dependent" relationship.

God, I hate S5 with the fire of ten thousand suns for that and I will never get over how the writers let Sam scate on all of what I saw as the important stuff within that relationship.

The following is my opinion only...

Others miles may vary, but I personally don't see this as that big a deal. The letting a child go / grow up trope is a pretty common one, and the show showed enough flashbacks to establish that Dean raised Sam as much if not more than John did, so those kind of tropes are to be expected as far as I'm concerned. And is it really all that "wrong?" I don't have children, so I can't say personally, but is it all that uncommon for a parent to have trouble not being "parental" when it comes to their child? Or for a child to balk at things they perceive to be "babying" even when it isn't necessarily? I thought that was normal behavior.

So Dean is a little over-protective of Sam at times and has to learn to let go a little. So and? I don't see this as some huge condemnation of Dean or as saying Dean is all that's "wrong" with the relationship. Especially since at the same time the show's message was how Sam "abandoned the family," by trying to go out on his own to go to school. That seems to be saying to me that both brothers have family issues, and who doesn't have family issues?

And again how would Dean "letting Sam grow up" have changed Sam's bad choices being his own? I never really got that reasoning. And even if the implication was that Dean was being bossy (which the show never said) again in my opinion, "being bossy" isn't any big deal either. A lot of good people are bossy and have to be to do their jobs and keep people safe. So Sam saying he wanted to get away from Dean for a while so as not to feel like a little brother wasn't any big condemnation of Dean that I could see. That was on Sam, and I have no problem with that. Sam's not perfect, and I don't want him to be.

So if "bossy" is the worst criticism the writers had of Dean's character, I don't see that as all that bad myself. Dean gets wanting to protect Sam (which is barely a flaw in my opinion), Sam gets betrayed his brother, arrogant, full of rage, and power hungry (I still don't get that one *shrug*).

And I'm not exactly sure what Sam "skated" on. We heard all throughout season 5 about Sam's "bad choices" and how the apocalypse was Sam's fault. So Bobby said they were hard on Sam. So what? How does that change the fact that Sam made bad choices? I don't think it does, nor do I think the show said or even implied that it did, or they wouldn't have kept up with the "bad choices" thing or Sam still getting those bad choices thrown in his face by random characters even many seasons later ...As if Sam is the only one who's made bad choices on this show.

If any character skated in season 5, it was Castiel, in my opinion. Not only didn't he get called out for his bad choices, he went around castigating Sam and even beating on Dean for their choices, taking the moral high ground while not even seeing that his behavior was hypocritical. And the show never really took that on until Gamble did it in season 6. Castiel outright blamed Dean for his own choices in season 5, no interpretation needed and not an "it was my fault" in sight. In my opinion, that's skating by.

Bergamot · December 24, 2019

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In some cases the potentially wrong stuff Dean does isn't even acknowledged as wrong. (Taking on the mark of Cain, killing Death, making the deal to bring Sam back to begin with, wiping Lisa and Ben's memories, the lying to Sam for weeks about Gadreel).

Well, I don't know that killing Death belongs on that list. That is something that came out of nowhere and went absolutely nowhere, except to bring about the replacement of the original Death with Billie. So there was no point to it, except I guess as a showcase sacrifice on the altar of the brotherly relationship, and there were no consequences. As a result I don't see it as a wrong act but instead just as a kind of bizarre plot point.

But other than that, yes, absolutely, those were wrong choices, committed by Dean. With terrible consequences, both personal and cosmic. I have no problem with saying that -- never have. And it has never been a roadblock to me enjoying the show or loving Dean as a character. But to say that Dean making the deal for Sam, or lying to Sam about Gadreel, was not "acknowledged as wrong" on the show? Sorry, but that is just not true. I can't be bothered, and don't have the time right now, to go through all the transcripts and find quotes, but it's not. Dean was acknowledged as wrong by Dean himself and by other characters. The fact of his wrongness was brought up and discussed at length by both the show's writers and the fans. The consequences that arose as a result of his wrong choices were clearly shown in the story. And there was no switcheroo that caused it all in the end to have never been his fault.

So why, as someone who loves Dean, do I love storylines like Dean selling his soul or taking on the Mark of Cain? Why don't I resent a story that shows Dean making a bad choice, or try to rationalize that it wasn't really wrong? Part of it, I guess, is that Dean is such a wonderfully real, complex, three-dimensional character, with both admirable qualities and flaws. And the choices he made were motivated and rooted in what we had come to know about Dean and what we had seen happen to him, so that I understood why he made those choices even though I knew they were wrong. And we saw the consequences, and they mattered, and the character could never again not be the person who had made those choices.

Of course I am protective of Dean, and will defend him if I feel he is being treated unfairly. My post before this was a specific reaction to the false equivalence being drawn between Sam's actions and Dean's actions in "Citizen Fang", and also the way that the show made a point of singling out Dean as being "wrong" there while completely ignoring what Sam had done. I did not say that Dean has never done anything wrong, or conversely, that Sam is never shown doing anything wrong -- that's a straw man argument. And I reject as untrue the idea that the show does not acknowledge it when Dean makes a wrong choice. Fortunately, in the past the show has usually handled those stories in a way that for me does not change my love for Dean or regret following his story.

Bergamot · December 24, 2019

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I like interesting characters. Benny was interesting, and so was his relationship with Dean.

I agree, ahrtee! Excellent post. I liked Benny as a character, and I also found his relationship with Dean interesting. I liked seeing their interactions.

You make a couple good points as to Sam's feelings about Benny. To me, the problem was not the way that Sam felt about Benny -- the problem was that the show refused to go anywhere with it. I thought it could have been a story that delved into aspects of the relationship of Sam and Dean, but in the end it was a story that did not matter, because the writers did not want to go there. Sam's actions in "Citizen Fang" were dropped like they never happened. Nothing to see here, move along. Once Benny was out of the picture, we were back to the status quo, and I guess we were supposed to believe that this was all that mattered.

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

he kept turning to Dean for support till Dean told him (at Sam's insistence) to stop calling, and he finally agreed to go back to Purgatory because he knew he had no place on earth.

I could be wrong -- it has been many years since I watched these episodes -- but I had kind of different view of why Dean told Benny to stop calling. I thought it had something to do with Dean's conversation with Kevin, when Kevin tells him that he sent his mother away so that he could concentrate fully on his task of translating the tablet. He says that he can't enjoy the world while he is trying to save it, and Dean seemed very struck by this.

This is also the point where Dean talks to Sam about having both feet in or both feet out, in regard to hunting, and where Sam finally decides to leave Amelia. Sam's ultimatum to Dean about Benny doesn't even matter in the end, because he comes back without ever hearing what Dean has decided to do. (As an aside, this does not change the way I feel about Sam issuing the ultimatum.)

And I think Dean decides to break with Benny not because of Sam's threat, but for the same reason that Kevin sent away his mother: he can't afford to be distracted from what he needs to do. That's why the final scene of Dean and Sam together seems so grim and subdued; it's not a joyous reaffirmation of the brotherly bond -- it's that they both have decided to fully commit to what they need to do. It's like Dean realizing the answer to his own question when he is talking to John's grave in "What Is and What Should Never Be", when he asks his father "Why?"

This is the way I remember it, anyway. Like I said, it's been a while since I watched that season, and I think the episode where this happened might have been kind of vague about it.

gonzosgirrl · December 24, 2019

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So why would I, as someone who loved Sam as a character, be happy about a character's story that turns Sam into the villain? And for what reason? What was the entire purpose of having Sam be jealous of Benny and threaten to kill him? (I had no idea, since there didn't seem to be one, and nothing came from it in terms of Sam character growth.) Because if it was mainly to garner sympathy for Benny, then for me that's an example of writers "hyping" a character - or at least trying to make that character look good - at the expense of a character who is supposed to be one of the leads and theoretically the hero of the story.

Replace the words Benny with Jack and Sam with Dean and you have a decent summary of the last 2.5 seasons. At least what you believe happened to Sam lasted less than half of one season.

catrox14 · December 24, 2019

48 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Replace the words Benny with Jack and Sam with Dean and you have a decent summary of the last 2.5 seasons. At least what you believe happened to Sam lasted less than half of one season.

And then doubled down on attempting to make Dean a villain by making Jack the woobie bean boy with a heart made of nougat who the show kept reminding us was only a toddler. And they also made him the Spawn of Satan which should have made Dean right to not trust him ever and when he didn't trust him it was Dean who was made out to be the bad guy for not trusting or fully loving him from his birth. Dabb & Co. have furthered used Jack to destroy the relationship between Dean and Cas and putting all the blame narratively on Dean .

Dean did get t the opportunity to kill Lucifer while being AU Michaels meatsuit, except he ended up being possessed, eventually against his will, which ended up with Jack killing Au Michael and Mary. So Dean didnt even get to be all that heroic in the end, thus far. . And yes I realize that is the Extreme Cliff Notes version. Dean got shat on by not getting to kill AU Michael and is the bad guy for being upset that Jack killed Mary cause Woobie Jack and Woobie Cas reasons.

Sam getting some heat for a little bit in s8 seems like a walk in the park. He also was given the opportunity to make up for his not liking Benny by attempting to close the gates of Hell.

ahrtee · December 24, 2019

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me as someone who loved Sam as a character and loved the character growth he'd had in seasons 6.5 through 7, having Sam act that way seemed like it was done exactly so that there would be sympathy for Benny and make his story a "tragedy." And who in Benny's tragic story was made out to be the villain in that?

So why would I, as someone who loved Sam as a character, be happy about a character's story that turns Sam into the villain? And for what reason? What was the entire purpose of having Sam be jealous of Benny and threaten to kill him? (I had no idea, since there didn't seem to be one, and nothing came from it in terms of Sam character growth.) Because if it was mainly to garner sympathy for Benny, then for me that's an example of writers "hyping" a character - or at least trying to make that character look good - at the expense of a character who is supposed to be one of the leads and theoretically the hero of the story.

Those who look for insult will find it, even if it's not intended (or visible to others). That's where the phrase YMMV comes in.

IMO, Benny's tragedy had nothing to do with Sam, at least until he sicced Martin on him. His tragedy was that he came back for one reason: to rescue his OTL, and found she wasn't that person any more. He found that the rest of his nest were trying to kill, recruit and/or frame him so that he wasn't free to just settle down somewhere. He found that the only person he found to connect with, his great-granddaughter, was threatened by hunters. Not Sam per se (he had no reason to think Martin was sent by Sam) but by Hunters in general. And all the while he was fighting to stay clean (he told Dean he'd sworn off blood *before* he went to Purgatory, and that's why his Maker killed him, so it wasn't anything new that Dean had caused) but it was becoming harder and harder without his Blood Drinkers Anonymous sponsor.

He had nowhere to go, no one to turn to, nothing to make him happy, except to go back to Purgatory. That's tragedy, to me. And Sam is nowhere in there, except on the sidelines, telling Dean to drop him and sending Martin after him. Cut Sam and Dean out of the storyline and it would still play out the same.

So hate Benny if you want, but as a character, not a plot device. The writers wanted the same old manufactured drama of brother-against-brother and inserted it into the story, by making Sam look jealous and Dean look equally "villainous" for sending the text. That's not "turning Sam into the villain" IMO, just bad writing.

Jonesy · December 24, 2019

I personally never understood this part of Dean fandom--I don't think the show has picked on Dean and put Sam, Cas and/or Jack above him. At times all 4 have been shown wrong or right or often all sides have a point. Don't see it as just pick on Dean--I see it as pretty even overall among the main characters...in fact you can argue Dean is shown to be right most of the time. All 3 Team Free Will characters bump heads at times in brother like fashion but in the end pull together and they have all apologized to each other thru the years...and to me that hasn't been weighted toward or against any one specific character. At least how I have seen the show--to be clear I view it liking all 3 heroes with Dean as my favorite edging out the other two.

ahrtee · December 24, 2019

1 minute ago, Jakes said:

I personally never understood this part of Dean fandom--I don't think the show has picked on Dean and put Sam, Cas and/or Jack above him. At times all 4 have been shown wrong or right or often all sides have a point. Don't see it as just pick on Dean--I see it as pretty even overall among the main characters...in fact you can argue Dean is shown to be right most of the time. All 3 Team Free Will characters bump heads at times in brother like fashion but in the end pull together and they have all apologized to each other thru the years...and to me that hasn't been weighted toward or against any one specific character. At least how I have seen the show--to be clear I view it liking all 3 heroes with Dean as my favorite edging out the other two.

IA with you up until the last 3 years. Once Jack came onto the scene, everything and everyone revolved around him and anyone "being mean" to him was Wrong.

Before that, the only time I tend to get defensive and protective of Dean is when I hear someone accusing him of being "whitewashed" or "always right" at the expense of one poor wooby character (usually Sam). I'd be perfectly happy if everyone would agree that they've all been/done wrong and all apologized/been forgiven over the years and stop keeping score.

ILoveReading · December 24, 2019

2 minutes ago, Jakes said:

I don't think the show has picked on Dean and put Sam, Cas and/or Jack above him.

If this wasn't their intention than something is seriously getting lost in translation. He's public enemy number one in the fandom right now. I had to stop going on tumblr because of the massive amount of Dean hate/Dean is abusive posts and how Cas is done with his crap and how Dean owes Cas an apology, and Jack one, and how Dean cost Sam his best friend.

Nothing about Cas's lies, his working against the Winchesters, or that Jack actually killed Mary. Its just Dean making drama out of nothing.

Berens even said he wrote that scene with Dean supposed to realize that Cas wasn't responsible for Mary, even though he played a part part in it. Nothing about Cas's actions. He refused to give Dean a voice.

In another scene they were all telling Jack he couldn't hunt, yet when Dean did it they had Jack leave the room crying. They had Dark Kaia, who even though she killed real Kaia going off on Dean and calling him week, with no one standing up for Dean, except one half hearted attempt by Jody. Not even Sam or Cas stood up for him.

After episode 3 aired I saw multiple 'Dean is useless" posts because Berens couldn't actually be bothered to follow through on the threat Rowena talked about. I also saw Dean was mean to poor Cas because he made him work with Jack.

He's made to make stupid mistakes, like putting the colt in the unwarded glove compartment in front of ademon. His instincts are no longer existent, his fighting skills, only showed up this season in an scene Jensen wrote for himself, and in an ep written by someone who seems to be a fan. (And hopefully will stay one and not drink Dabbs koolaid).

They didn't even let him defeat Michael. Michael left and when Dean confronted him in Nihilism, he got his ass kicked and Sam saved the day, then the narrative showed Dean as weak and giving up for wanting to sacrifice himself, We didn't even get a Dean vs Michael scene. In 14. 03 when Dean said he wasnt' strong enough, the camera focuses on Sam. Not a coincidence, IMO, as a way to remind the audience that Sam did.

Even the ep they gave Jensen to direct didn't have much to work with. Jensen said he wanted to direct an action scene and had to include it himself.

Dean is rarely given a voice to defend his actions. He's not really give big saves anymore, or we don't get much of a chance to see his softer side anymore. The one time we did it was on Lilith On the filp side, Misha has decided to play Cas as the eternal woobie and is given dialogue about how the Winchesters only used him (not true of course but suddenly "new canon") Him and Sam are given verbal build ups by other characters, and connections. I notice that Rowena only gave access to Sam. Not Sam and Dean.

I don't believe any of this about Dean, of course, but I fail to see how the writing is good for Dean in any away shape or form or isn't setting out to make him the bad guy when he's the only one doing the apologizing.

gonzosgirrl · December 24, 2019

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I had to stop going on tumblr because of the massive amount of Dean hate/Dean is abusive posts and how Cas is done with his crap and how Dean owes Cas an apology, and Jack one, and how Dean cost Sam his best friend.

Nothing about Cas's lies, his working against the Winchesters, or that Jack actually killed Mary. Its just Dean making drama out of nothing.

This, maybe even more than any drama there has ever been between Dean and Sam, pisses. Me. OFF.

Since the moment Cas decided to protect Fetus!Jack back in S12, he has done nothing but continue to lie to and betray the Winchesters. He manipulated Dean to get the Colt, he left them unconscious on the side of the road, he actively worked against them. Right up to and including protecting Jack's 'soulless' (utter bullshit) behavior that culminated in Mary's death. And yet somehow, Dean is still the villain of the piece? Seriously, fuck you Andrew Dabb. And fuck you even harder for what we all know will be Dean apologizing again. That's not a spoiler, it's just inevitable.

Edited December 24, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

Bessie · December 24, 2019

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I had to stop going on tumblr because of the massive amount of Dean hate/Dean is abusive posts and how Cas is done with his crap and how Dean owes Cas an apology, and Jack one, and how Dean cost Sam his best friend.

Jack was never Sam’s best friend. That’s just a way for destiel shippers to get him out of the way. They don’t actually care about him. Some of those shippers, you’re better off ignoring. Nothing matters to them, except the ship.

Dean doesn’t owe castiel an apology. Doesn’t mean he won’t apologize anyway. But, honestly, why should Dean apologize for his anger at castiel over his mother’s death when only a week ago Castiel almost killed his brother.

If there is an apology, the timing is a little off.

ILoveReading · December 24, 2019

12 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Jack was never Sam’s best friend. That’s just a way for destiel shippers to get him out of the way. They don’t actually care about him. Some of those shippers, you’re better off ignoring. Nothing matters to them, except the ship.

Dean doesn’t owe castiel an apology. Doesn’t mean he won’t apologize anyway. But, honestly, why should Dean apologize for his anger at castiel over his mother’s death when only a week ago Castiel almost killed his brother.

If there is an apology, the timing is a little off.

I didn't mean Jack, I meant Cas. All of a sudden he's Sam's best friend. I try to ignore them but when they put this stuff in the Dean tag its not that easy. I don't think I've ever blocked so many people at once to get the Dean hate off my timeline. I don't even go looking for it.

I agree Dean doesn't owe Cas an apology but Berens actively dislikes Dean and no one is ever going convince me otherwise, so I fully expect Cas to be deified and Dean to be the one villified.

DeeDee79 · December 24, 2019

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Before that, the only time I tend to get defensive and protective of Dean is when I hear someone accusing him of being "whitewashed" or "always right" at the expense of one poor wooby character (usually Sam). I'd be perfectly happy if everyone would agree that they've all been/done wrong and all apologized/been forgiven over the years and stop keeping score.

Agree so much with this and this part

Quote

accusing him of being "whitewashed" or "always right" at the expense of one poor wooby character (usually Sam).

is an understatement.

Castiels Cat · December 29, 2019

On 12/24/2019 at 12:16 PM, ILoveReading said:

If this wasn't their intention than something is seriously getting lost in translation. He's public enemy number one in the fandom right now. I had to stop going on tumblr because of the massive amount of Dean hate/Dean is abusive posts and how Cas is done with his crap and how Dean owes Cas an apology, and Jack one, and how Dean cost Sam his best friend.

Nothing about Cas's lies, his working against the Winchesters, or that Jack actually killed Mary. Its just Dean making drama out of nothing.

Berens even said he wrote that scene with Dean supposed to realize that Cas wasn't responsible for Mary, even though he played a part part in it. Nothing about Cas's actions. He refused to give Dean a voice.

In another scene they were all telling Jack he couldn't hunt, yet when Dean did it they had Jack leave the room crying.   They had Dark Kaia, who even though she killed real Kaia going off on Dean and calling him week, with no one standing up for Dean, except one half hearted attempt by Jody. Not even Sam or Cas stood up for him.

After episode 3 aired I saw multiple 'Dean is useless" posts because Berens couldn't actually be bothered to follow through on the threat Rowena talked about. I also saw Dean was mean to poor Cas because he made him work with Jack.

He's made to make stupid mistakes, like putting the colt in the unwarded glove compartment in front of ademon. His instincts are no longer existent, his fighting skills, only showed up this season in an scene Jensen wrote for himself, and in an ep written by someone who seems to be a fan. (And hopefully will stay one and not drink Dabbs koolaid).

They didn't even let him defeat Michael. Michael left and when Dean confronted him in Nihilism, he got his ass kicked and Sam saved the day, then the narrative showed Dean as weak and giving up for wanting to sacrifice himself,   We didn't even get a Dean vs Michael scene. In 14. 03 when Dean said he wasnt' strong enough, the camera focuses on Sam. Not a coincidence, IMO, as a way to remind the audience that Sam did.

Even the ep they gave Jensen to direct didn't have much to work with. Jensen said he wanted to direct an action scene and had to include it himself.

Dean is rarely given a voice to defend his actions. He's not really give big saves anymore, or we don't get much of a chance to see his softer side anymore. The one time we did it was on Lilith On the filp side, Misha has decided to play Cas as the eternal woobie and is given dialogue about how the Winchesters only used him (not true of course but suddenly "new canon") Him and Sam are given verbal build ups by other characters, and connections.    I notice that Rowena only gave access to Sam. Not Sam and Dean.

I don't believe any of this about Dean, of course, but I fail to see how the writing is good for Dean in any away shape or form or isn't setting out to make him the bad guy when he's the only one doing the apologizing.

" I notice that Rowena only gave access to Sam. Not Sam and Dean." Do you mean her legacy? Dean was also in the space without any problems so she also included him.

The business about Samuel being practically a witch was a ruse because she needed to be alone with him on order to convince him to kill her be6she believed in Death's prophecy.

As for the issues in the writing for Dean this season in particular... something is going on. The Nepotism Duo is in charge of the writer's room and they are operating on season one character bullets from Singer. Dean is the uneducated brawn. Dabb appears to be focused on seasons 4-5 Easter eggs per Chuck's endings. That's about as much continuity as we get.

I agree that there is a very real problem in the writing for Dean this season. There is the Chuck f'g with him angle which is meta for the writers f'g with Jensen. Lilith indicated that Chuck is really serving on Dean. I think based on Jensen 's comments he's the one that made the call and ran point on pulling the plug as well as broaching differences of opinion with the writing when they came up. We know he tried to get guest writers for this season so the show could go out on a high note and did other things that resulted in script changes. One can imagine a payback situation.

The thing is... regarding Chuck's m.o... he was cool just killing Jack and walking away. He didn't lose it and go Apocalyptic until Sam shot him. Dean refusing to kill Jack messed with his story but it didn't set him off. So Dean should not be a target based on plot. Ergo the extreme dumbing down of Dean is either bad writing and/or aimed at Jensen.

It's hilarious because without Jensen's contribution to the show and Kim Manner's recognition of this and the attendant elevation of Dean's role from Kripke's original concept, Supernatural would have died a long time ago. He being recognized and getting noticed, making these lists that surpass expectations for a role on the CW. And the show keeps pushing him down. The Michael storyline was the only storyline that he had that appeared to be about him from beginning to end... that is until resurrected Just Jack inexplicably was strong enough to kill Michael in seconds. Every other storyline was ridiculously short, mostly off-screen or barely there or was there for Sam to react to and save him from.

Castiels Cat · December 29, 2019

On 12/24/2019 at 12:17 AM, ahrtee said:

That's something I never understood. Who was "hyping" Benny, and what was so "awesome" about him that inspires so much hatred? Is it just the line that Dean spouted (not nearly as cruel and mean-spirited as many of the ones Sam has thrown at him over the years) about Benny being the only one who hadn't betrayed him? Which was true at the moment, and was thrown out in hurt and anger, just like Sam's various accusations at Dean. Are fans blaming him because Dean didn't tell Sam right away about him? (I can see that: "Hey, I'm back from Purgatory, with the help of a friendly vampire I brought back with me. But he's promised to go straight. What did you do all year?")  So...they're angry because Benny *didn't* go bad? Because he was actually likable and not sullen/angry/manipulative? Because he was cute and had a southern accent?

I just don't understand how/when Benny was being "hyped." He was featured in 4 out of 23 episodes (all except "Taxi Driver" with him needing Dean to help him out) and a few snarky flashbacks. He was not a Marty Stu. He made no secret of the fact that he only hooked up with Dean to help him escape, and kept telling him to dump Cas. But I'm guessing that in the *whole year* that they fought their way through Purgatory Dean learned he could trust him to watch his back (whether or not because he was his ticket out). We did see flashbacks of them fighting together and helping each other.   If he'd been an enemy soldier trapped together in a dangerous land, I think they would have bonded just as well.

Then when they returned, they were ready to go their separate ways except for the connection of a year's worth of fighting together, so when Benny was struggling, Dean went to help. Nothing he wouldn't do for any human he'd bonded with. Benny was having trouble fighting off his vampire urges (just like Lenore and her group), he was having a hard time fitting in, especially since he had to stay away from former friends and everyone he used to know was dead, so Dean was pretty much the only connection he had. He was lonely, he was having doubts about his ability to live among people again, and he kept turning to Dean for support till Dean told him (at Sam's insistence) to stop calling, and he finally agreed to go back to Purgatory because he knew he had no place on earth. If he were any one else, that would be a tragedy, not "awesome." So, the audience could sympathize with him. What's wrong with that?

AFAICS, Sam was jealous, and that's all. He hated the fact that he couldn't rescue Dean himself and a "monster" managed it. And he looked for anything possible to dislike about Benny because of that, and was unwilling to give him any benefit of the doubt (possibly because he was still angry over Ruby's betrayal). But that doesn't mean that the viewers have to accept his judgment, unless they're looking for some excuse for Sam's behavior.

I like interesting characters. Benny was interesting, and so was his relationship with Dean. That doesn't make him "awesome" or over-hyped. JMO, of course.

He was jealous because Benny saved Dean when he hadn't even tried and he knew he had disappointed Dean. And the last time Dean had needed saving Sam had failed; Cas gripped him tight and raised him from Perdition. So this was tearing open that old wound too.

Remember in the s 8 finale when Dean goes to beg him not to finish the trials because Sam will die, Sam brings up his jealousy and asks Dean who will he turn to the next time Sam let's him down...

SAM

You can barely do it with me. I mean, you think I screw up everything I try. You think I need a chaperone, remember?

DEAN

Come on, man. That's not what I meant.

SAM

No, it's exactly what you meant. You want to know what I confessed in there? What my greatest sin was? It was how many times I let you down. I can't do that again.

DEAN

Sam --

SAM

[beginning to cry] What happens when you've decided I can't be trusted again? I mean, who are you gonna turn to next time instead of me? Another angel, another -- another vampire? Do you have any idea what it feels like to watch your brother just –

catrox14 · December 29, 2019

36 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

nd they are operating on season one character bullets from Singer. Dean is the uneducated brawn.

They can't be using s1 Dean because in s1 Dean actually read books, and newspapers and did research on the computer, even in the pilot. He had brawn and brains. IMO under Dabb is when they really dumbed him down. Still could be the NepoDuo but it's not a season 1 Dean IMO.

Castiels Cat · December 29, 2019

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

They can't be using s1 Dean because in s1 Dean actually read books, and newspapers and did research on the computer, even in the pilot. He had brawn and brains. IMO under Dabb is when they really dumbed him down. Still could be the NepoDuo but it's not a season 1 Dean IMO.

I think Singer doesn't know that. Singer always is quoted as saying Dean is the brawn. Maybe it's from the original show pitch.

They don't know the characters. They don't bother. Nepotism duo never bothered to learn the seasonal plots even. And Nepotism duo doesn't know canon. They just make it all up or she might ask Singer but he doesn't know much. Now she is in charge of the writers... for the last season. And we get sad sack meta madness with Nucanon and Just Jack.

ILoveReading · December 29, 2019

10 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

he Nepotism Duo is in charge of the writer's room and they are operating on season one character bullets from Singer.

I actually find the Nepotism Duo are one of the better (and I use that term losely) for Dean lately. Dabb just see him as insignificant, and Berens seems to outright hate the character.

Out of the first 3 eps at least Dean had some nice moments with Ketch and got a kill in episode 2. He was ignored in 1, and in 3 despite him having the most dangerous job, Berens spent the least amount of time on it and then threw Dean under the bus.

auntvi · January 2, 2020

On 12/29/2019 at 4:16 AM, Castiels Cat said:

I think based on Jensen 's comments he's the one that made the call and ran point on pulling the plug as well as broaching differences of opinion with the writing when they came up. We know he tried to get guest writers for this season so the show could go out on a high note and did other things that resulted in script changes

Do we know any of this? Pulling the plug has always been presented as a joint Jared and Jensen decision. I mean, Jared quickly found another role as if he were planning to be free next year. I’ve read lots of speculation about people’s influence on the writers, but I’ve never heard that Jensen or Jared had any real influence on the last season’s writing.

Katy M · January 2, 2020

On 12/28/2019 at 10:53 PM, catrox14 said:

They can't be using s1 Dean because in s1 Dean actually read books, and newspapers and did research on the computer, even in the pilot. He had brawn and brains. IMO under Dabb is when they really dumbed him down. Still could be the NepoDuo but it's not a season 1 Dean IMO.

Actually S1 Dean said he didn't read books, basically.

Shadow

Sam: What's the last book you read?

Dean: (hesitates), OK, I called Dad's friend (?) and asked him.

PRovenance

Sam: You mean like a Da Vinci code thing?

Dean: I don't know. I'm still waiting for the move to come out.

I'm not saying that he didn't do research, nor that he was stupid (or not smart). But, he didn't seem to be a pleasure reader.

And, yes, he was very smart. He made an EMF out of an old Walkman (Phantom Traveler). It was implied that he and John came up with the idea to use salt rounds for bullets which now every other hunter does also (Hook Man). He figured out to show Mary herself in a mirror (Bloody Mary).

catrox14 · January 2, 2020

52 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm not saying that he didn't do research, nor that he was stupid (or not smart). But, he didn't seem to be a pleasure reader.

At some point Dean read Vonnegut because he asked the lady in Monster at the End of the Book which Vonnegut was Dean's favorite. So either he read those before s1 or between s1 and s4. Dean had newspapers with him in s1. Sam mocking Dean about not reading the DaVinci code doesn't mean Dean wasn't a pleasure reader. He just didn't read that book. And Sam really didn't know Dean well at all back then. And I think Dean let him think what he wanted, IMO

Katy M · January 2, 2020

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

At some point Dean read Vonnegut because he asked the lady in Monster at the End of the Book which Vonnegut was Dean's favorite. So either he read those before s1 or between s1 and s4. Dean had newspapers with him in s1. Sam mocking Dean about not reading the DaVinci code doesn't mean Dean wasn't a pleasure reader. He just didn't read that book. And Sam really didn't know Dean well at all back then. And I think Dean let him think what he wanted, IMO

Fine, but that's hardly concrete proof that Season 1 Dean was a big book reader. And, Sam didn't mock Dean about reading the Da Vinci Code. He asked if that's what Dean meant. Dean said he hadn't read it (basically), and no more was said on the matter. Bit of a stretch for mockery.

tessathereaper · January 2, 2020

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Fine, but that's hardly concrete proof that Season 1 Dean was a big book reader. And, Sam didn't mock Dean about reading the Da Vinci Code. He asked if that's what Dean meant. Dean said he hadn't read it (basically), and no more was said on the matter. Bit of a stretch for mockery.

Every time Sam asked one of those questions or made one of those remarks about books it was presented as some sort of mockery of Dean's "smarts". Nor do I think Dean's answer to his question where he called someone else really say anything about his reading. Sam was being an ass even asking the question - as if Dean if didn't read it in a book, it was a "lesser" way to find out the answer, like calling someone who was more of an expert on the matter and actually discussing it with them is not as intelligent or as good as finding it in a book.

I remember back at that time, in Season 1, there was definitely some criticism of the presentation of that line because it was so ridiculous to act like Dean asking someone else who could give him the answer was a "stupider" option, because that is what Sam's implying when he doesn't believe Dean got the answer from a book by saying "What was the last book you even read?". Who cares how Dean got the answer, he got the answer, it's not less intelligent to ask someone who knows about these things than it is to go scrounging around books to look for the answer.

Katy M · January 2, 2020

14 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Sam was being an ass even asking the question - as if Dean if didn't read it in a book,

But, he didn't read it in a book. He called Caleb, Jefferson, one of those 2. Unless you're saying that the way we know things about Dean is that he lies and we assume the opposite.

Aeryn13 · January 2, 2020

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, he didn't read it in a book. He called Caleb, Jefferson, one of those 2. Unless you're saying that the way we know things about Dean is that he lies and we assume the opposite.

Why is this about Dean lying? He clearly said that in this instance he didn't read it in a book but called ssomeone. Sam just made a "you're so stupid" remark out of it as it very often hapoens. And his tone very very rarely implies friendly teasing when he does it.

Of course nowadays Dean is getting flanderized to such a degree they make dumb jokes at his expense with things he canonically knows. Sam is still rolling his eyes just the same, the writers are just validating "poor uncouth dumb Dean" beliefs.

Casseiopeia · January 2, 2020

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

flanderized

I'd never seen this word before. I looked it up. Now I have a way to exemplify what the writers have done to Dean. Thank you for expanding my universe a little. 😖

gonzosgirrl · January 2, 2020

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Why is this about Dean lying? He clearly said that in this instance he didn't read it in a book but called ssomeone. Sam just made a "you're so stupid" remark out of it as it very often hapoens. And his tone very very rarely implies friendly teasing when he does it.

Of course nowadays Dean is getting flanderized to such a degree they make dumb jokes at his expense with things he canonically knows. Sam is still rolling his eyes just the same, the writers are just validating "poor uncouth dumb Dean" beliefs.

Said it before and I'll say it again. If Sam's attitude towards Dean's smarts (or lack thereof) is supposed to be brotherly teasing and not condescending, superior and judgey, somebody should have told Jared.

"Flanderized" - a new one for me, too. Sadly all too accurate when it comes to Dean in Dabbernatural. Unfortunately, I have to hold Jensen himself responsible for at least some of the physical stuff (not being able to climb a fence, for example) since he seems to love the slapstick at times.

tessathereaper · January 5, 2020

On 1/2/2020 at 4:32 PM, Katy M said:

But, he didn't read it in a book. He called Caleb, Jefferson, one of those 2. Unless you're saying that the way we know things about Dean is that he lies and we assume the opposite.

You left off the rest of the sentence where in that is exactly my point. I literally say Dean asked someone instead of reading it in a book. Sam is acting as if because Dean didn't read it in a book, he asked someone instead, it's it's somehow LESS than reading it in a book. I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with here or how this has anything to do with Dean lying.

Sam IMO was an ass for making a "stupid joke" about Dean because Dean asked someone instead of reading it. It wasn't meaningless brotherly teasing, imo, it came across as genuinely thinking Dean was somehow stupider for asking someone who was more an expert as it were. Which isn't unusual for Sam but this was an early instance of it, because a little more than half way through the first season.

Edited January 5, 2020 by tessathereaper

Harleycat · January 9, 2020

On 1/2/2020 at 3:13 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Said it before and I'll say it again. If Sam's attitude towards Dean's smarts (or lack thereof) is supposed to be brotherly teasing and not condescending, superior and judgey, somebody should have told Jared.

"Flanderized" - a new one for me, too. Sadly all too accurate when it comes to Dean in Dabbernatural. Unfortunately, I have to hold Jensen himself responsible for at least some of the physical stuff (not being able to climb a fence, for example) since he seems to love the slapstick at times.

I think that is the major difference between the actors. Jensen sees beyond the script and realizes that should be viewable by teens and families. He doesn't mind being silly. He would be much less appealing if he did take it all seriously, he is a professional actor. He breathes life into a stale show. He does everything that is given to him well. He took the role of the "muscle" and made his character the heart of the show.

Jared on the other hand never got the memo on pretty much anything. He never did have range and always played Sam as a petulant brat. He has continued to fail to do anything successful except model (which he does very well during fight scenes, torture scenes, love scenes, etc.). His limitations as an actor have held Sam the character from evolving, as Jared can't handle comedy or drama, and really what else is there on this show.

Anyway isn't Dean generally considered the smart one by their friends and associates? There is a reason why Sam's nick name is Moose, he is big and considered well meaning but not very bright. It is Squirrel who is the brains of the operation. That is why everyone calls Dean, not Sam. Sam may read and be an expert at lore but I never took that as Sam being especially smart, he just works hard at it.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Harleycat

ILoveReading · January 9, 2020

10 hours ago, Harleycat said:

I think that is the major difference between the actors. Jensen sees beyond the script and realizes that should be viewable by teens and families. He doesn't mind being silly. He would be much less appealing if he did take it all seriously, he is a professional actor. He breathes life into a stale show. He does everything that is given to him well. He took the role of the "muscle" and made his character the heart of the show.

Jared on the other hand never got the memo on pretty much anything. He never did have range and always played Sam as a petulant brat. He has continued to fail to do anything successful except model (which he does very well during fight scenes, torture scenes, love scenes, etc.). His limitations as an actor have held Sam the character from evolving, as Jared can't handle comedy or drama, and really what else is there on this show.

Anyway isn't Dean generally considered the smart one by their friends and associates? There is a reason why Sam's nick name is Moose, he is big and considered well meaning but not very bright. It is Squirrel who is the brains of the operation. That is why everyone calls Dean, not Sam. Sam may read and be an expert at lore but I never took that as Sam being especially smart, he just works hard at it.

This is what I feel too. Jensen acts against the script. Jared plays it straight up. Playing it straight up doesn't necessarily mean a person is a bad actor but the writing has to be there and on SPN its just not. Sam comes across as an entitled spoiled brat.

AwesomO4000 · January 11, 2020

Brought over from the bitter spoilers thread. No real spoilers:

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Well, Sam has been shown over and over to be the "smart" one, the one who does all the research, and now the one who can do spells (and even bring people back to life!) Dean was originally the "mechanical" one, the "brawn" and the pool hustler. Now they're giving all that to Sam as well, while not letting Dean have anything new (or even the old things he used to be expert at.) No one should be great at everything. Let each one have their own areas of expertise. It doesn't take anything away from the other if they excel at different things.

ETA: And, as @catrox14 says, if it's a contest, the one who's the best should be the one who competes, not just someone who "can do it too."
"

That's not true at all. Dean has been shown doing research and having his own knowledge since season 1, so neither of those was exclusively a "Sam thing." Just because Dean often pretended that he didn't know things and made fun of Sam for being a nerd doesn't mean he actually wasn't smart nor a nerd in some ways himself. The thing that Sam was good at notably was seeing clues in and remembering details of photos and other visual media, but we haven't seen that in a long time. I doubt the current group of writers even remembers this about Sam. He also used to be pretty good with a knife, but they've forgotten that also.

Dean is also known for being a marksman which we haven't seen from Sam at all - with most currently Sam hitting Chuck in the shoulder (unless that was his intent, but why?) The problem with letting them each have their "own areas of expertise" is that if we went with what was hinted at in the early seasons, then a large majority of these things would be only with Dean: marksmanship, mechanical abilities, symbols, ability to read people, fighting, hustling pool and poker, pop culture knowledge with a specialty in movies and music, picking up women, hunting in general, and good instincts in general. Also probably driving and directions. Oh, and even cooking, though theoretically it would make more sense for Sam to be the one who cooks since he seems to be more fussy about what he eats, but nope, Dean is the one who cooks the best also. And I'm sure that I'm forgetting some.

The writers rarely gave Sam much in terms of things that were "his" and most were shown to be also things Dean had knowledge of early on, including demon lore and reading, which they established fairly early on that Dean also does, Dean just hides the fact much of the time. Even in terms of knives being more of Sam's thing early on, and despite the Colt being mostly Dean's weapon and Sam actually being given the demon killing knife by Ruby, it mostly became Dean's knife even in season 4 and 5. Sure Sam sometimes knows Latin and some languages a bit more, but Dean knows it, too. (And Bobby more took over that role later on.) It was suggested that Sam did some acting, but that was somewhat retconned later on when Sam's theater experience was more relegated to behind the scenes technical stuff (Dean isn't the only one the show has taken abilities away from.)

So if each brother had their own specialties as you suggest, what would you have as Sam's specialties that you wouldn't object to Dean not having? It seems to me that there wouldn't be that much left that would be "Sam's thing," and if they were Sam's thing, there would be complaints that it would be the writers making Dean look less intelligent or whatever.

And actually in terms of hustling, I can imagine that Soulless Sam likely blew both Dean and souled Sam out of the water, considering he probably had an amazing poker face and a self-assured attitude. If the writers were good enough to remember what Soulless Sam was like and have Sam say that he was going to channel Soulless Sam (whose memories Sam has), I could entirely believe that Sam would be good at it.

Aeryn13 · January 11, 2020

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the bitter spoilers thread. No real spoilers:

That's not true at all. Dean has been shown doing research and having his own knowledge since season 1, so neither of those was exclusively a "Sam thing." Just because Dean often pretended that he didn't know things and made fun of Sam for being a nerd doesn't mean he actually wasn't smart nor a nerd in some ways himself. The thing that Sam was good at notably was seeing clues in and remembering details of photos and other visual media, but we haven't seen that in a long time. I doubt the current group of writers even remembers this about Sam. He also used to be pretty good with a knife, but they've forgotten that also.

Dean is also known for being a marksman which we haven't seen from Sam at all - with most currently Sam hitting Chuck in the shoulder (unless that was his intent, but why?) The problem with letting them each have their "own areas of expertise" is that if we went with what was hinted at in the early seasons, then a large majority of these things would be only with Dean: marksmanship, mechanical abilities, symbols, ability to read people, fighting, hustling pool and poker, pop culture knowledge with a specialty in movies and music, picking up women, hunting in general, and good instincts in general. Also probably driving and directions. Oh, and even cooking, though theoretically it would make more sense for Sam to be the one who cooks since he seems to be more fussy about what he eats, but nope, Dean is the one who cooks the best also. And I'm sure that I'm forgetting some.

The writers rarely gave Sam much in terms of things that were "his" and most were shown to be also things Dean had knowledge of early on, including demon lore and reading, which they established fairly early on that Dean also does, Dean just hides the fact much of the time. Even in terms of knives being more of Sam's thing early on, and despite the Colt being mostly Dean's weapon and Sam actually being given the demon killing knife by Ruby, it mostly became Dean's knife even in season 4 and 5. Sure Sam sometimes knows Latin and some languages a bit more, but Dean knows it, too. (And Bobby more took over that role later on.) It was suggested that Sam did some acting, but that was somewhat retconned later on when Sam's theater experience was more relegated to behind the scenes technical stuff (Dean isn't the only one the show has taken abilities away from.)

So if each brother had their own specialties as you suggest, what would you have as Sam's specialties that you wouldn't object to Dean not having? It seems to me that there wouldn't be that much left that would be "Sam's thing," and if they were Sam's thing, there would be complaints that it would be the writers making Dean look less intelligent or whatever.

And actually in terms of hustling, I can imagine that Soulless Sam likely blew both Dean and souled Sam out of the water, considering he probably had an amazing poker face and a self-assured attitude. If the writers were good enough to remember what Soulless Sam was like and have Sam say that he was going to channel Soulless Sam (whose memories Sam has), I could entirely believe that Sam would be good at it.

How have they portrayed it in say the last four to five years? What is Sam not the utter supreme specialist and expert in anymore? What does Dean have left at all other than being the humiliated comic relief? Please no examples from a decade ago or one second from one episode in a wry blue moon but what has been shown consistently for 4 years now?

Now we have Sam the researcher, the lore expert, the weapon's expert, the superfighter, the super-witch, the leader etc.

Dean is...mostly the guy who doesn't know what an Achilles heel is. Cooking? That is a "skill" given to him for comic relief purposes, certainly not for badass hunting reasons.

What skills does Dean get to consistently display in a positive way in Dabb's era? I can name you many many negative traits they show for him in almost every single episode. But something good? Happens at best once a Season in the background nowadays.

Btw, the Sam and the knives thing is a BTS anecdote. He was supposed to be that but Jared proved to be a bit accident-prone so they dropped it. For the same reason he doesn't drive often, Jared broke some things in the stunt cars via accidental fiddling.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Aeryn13

ILoveReading · January 11, 2020

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

That's not true at all. Dean has been shown doing research and having his own knowledge since season 1,

Pre-Dabb I would have agreed, but these days even when we get a moment where we see Dean do something smart the writers make sure to throw in a dumb Dean moment to remind the audience he's not smarter than Sam.

Just last episode Dean had a good idea but then they had to make Dean not even know what an achilles heel is. Dean needs help to pronounce simple Latin words. He has to be told to burn a body to get rid of the ghost. We rarely see him looking up cases or researching answers. How many times have we heard Dean say, Sam's on it.

Dean even had to ask Sam to fix the colt and he's supposed to be the weapons expect.

Under Dabb, Sam is suddenly and electronics expect and builds things, just like Dean. He came up with a cure to a biblical plauge. He speaks and reads multiple languages. He's been given Dean's instincts, his leadership abilities, he's completing complex spells that even Rowena couldn't finish.

This last season he has 3 different storylines. With his relationship with Eileen, his connection to Chuck, and becoming a witch. Dean's been relegated to comic relief.

Spoiler

Would it really be so awful if Dean was given one episode where he was allowed to be better at Sam at something. Especially at something he's supposed to be better than Sam.

Dean's the pool player but since its a Glynn ep and she sees him as dumb comic relief I'm sure you'll get your wish for Sam to be the supreme leader and bestest most specialist pool player ever.

Edited January 11, 2020 by ILoveReading

Harleycat · January 11, 2020

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

What skills does Dean get to consistently display in a positive way in Dabb's era? I can name you many many negative traits they show for him in almost every single episode. But something good? Happens at best once a Season in the background nowadays.

Dean is still better with people and has better instincts. His insights are often ignored by the other characters, but it is understandable that after so many years of living in close quarters Sam would want Dean to trust him to make his own decisions.

I think the writers did pick up on the fact that despite all his bravado Dean is a shy person. He was in his element back when it was just him, Sam, and Baby. Now there are so many other characters. It would be draining to someone like Dean, who needs a lot of alone time. He isn't thriving, he is getting through the day. I think that is what they are trying to show, that Dean is worn out and their new life in the bunker isn't a good fit for him so it won't be sad when he inevitably moves on.

Sam on the other hand always wanted other connections. He always wanted to able to keep up with new technology as well but never had the ability to do that with Dean and Bobby. For a lot of the show Dean was the expert because he learned from his Dad and Bobby while Sam was off doing school plays or hanging out with friends. It wasn't a bad thing, they just had different priorities and were telling a fish out of water story with Sam. Now they are showing that it took Sam 11 to 12 years, as he is not that bright, but he did finally learn how to be a hunter.

ILoveReading · January 11, 2020

51 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

Dean, who needs a lot of alone time. He isn't thriving, he is getting through the day. I think that is what they are trying to show, that Dean is worn out and their new life in the bunker isn't a good fit for him so it won't be sad when he inevitably moves on.

51 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

Sam on the other hand always wanted other connections.

I disagree here. I think Dean is more the people person and the person looking to make connections. Deans' biggest fear is being alone. He adapts far better than Sam. The bunker is his home. He made it that way days after moving in, he started nesting. Dean knows everyone in town. He lies for a living but he's never been that great at it. He told Cassie the truth immediately. Lisa knew his true self. While a normal life didn't work out for him, he genuinely cared about Lisa and Ben, and them him. He seems to make connections easily and win people over. Benny, Victor, Ketch, Lee, Ritchie, (guy from Sin City) are good examples.

Also Dean adapts wherever he goes whether its prison or Hollywood.

Sam, on the other hand comes across as a loner. He never told Jessica the truth or even some watered down version of it. He seems to push people away more than reaches out to them. Sam is the one who never really fit into the bunker. He even tells Dean that he never fit in.

Even Sam's supposed role as chief he didn't seem to know those under than other than their names. The way he was doing everything to the point he couldn't sleep that shows he doesn't really trust the people he's working with, if they can't so something simple like monitor check-ins. When Dean gave Sam full credit after Dean rescused Maggie, it was clearly Dean that checked on her. Also none of those hunters even looked in Sam's direction. He had no real connection with any of them.

Of course its not completely black and white and there have been times its been reversed, but for the most part, IMO, if I ignore the tell for the show, Dean is the people person who wants connections whereas Sam is the loner who pushes everyone away.

Edited January 11, 2020 by ILoveReading

Harleycat · January 11, 2020

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I disagree here. I think Dean is more the people person and the person looking to make connections. Deans' biggest fear is being alone. He adapts far better than Sam. The bunker is his home. He made it that way days after moving in, he started nesting. Dean knows everyone in town. He lies for a living but he's never been that great at it. He told Cassie the truth immediately. Lisa knew his true self. While a normal life didn't work out for him, he genuinely cared about Lisa and Ben, and them him. He seems to make connections easily and win people over. Benny, Victor, Ketch, Lee, Ritchie, (guy from Sin City) are good examples.

Sam, on the other hand comes across as a loner. He never told Jessica the truth or even some watered down version of it. He seems to push people away more than reaches out to them.

I think introverts can still have charisma and people skills and the ability to lead others. Dean has those, but he prefers his circle to be small. When he was with Lisa he was open with her, but other than that has one friend from work who bought him beer and who he did not talk to about his life. They implied that he spent a lot of time alone in the garage. When things got dangerous his instinct was to isolate Lisa and Ben. He is most himself when he is on the road with Sam, that is his happy place. He doesn't want to be in the road with someone else, just his brother.

Sam has never seemed like a loner to me. Just a difference of perspective. I've always taken it that Sam is the extrovert. He latches onto pretty much anyone who gives him attention, while Dean is more reserved and better at reading people. Sure, Dean sleeps with women, but it is only because it feels good in the moment, not because he wants a relationship. Sam wants other relationships, he just isn't great at maintaining them because he does lack people skills.

Aeryn13 · January 11, 2020

4 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

I think introverts can still have charisma and people skills and the ability to lead others. Dean has those, but he prefers his circle to be small. When he was with Lisa he was open with her, but other than that has one friend from work who bought him beer and who he did not talk to about his life. They implied that he spent a lot of time alone in the garage. When things got dangerous his instinct was to isolate Lisa and Ben. He is most himself when he is on the road with Sam, that is his happy place. He doesn't want to be in the road with someone else, just his brother.

Sam has never seemed like a loner to me. Just a difference of perspective. I've always taken it that Sam is the extrovert. He latches onto pretty much anyone who gives him attention, while Dean is more reserved and better at reading people. Sure, Dean sleeps with women, but it is only because it feels good in the moment, not because he wants a relationship. Sam wants other relationships, he just isn't great at maintaining them because he does lack people skills.

Dean is an extrovert and Sam is an introvert. Those two seem pretty obvious to me. I could never read them each as the opposite. Wanting lasting relationships vs. just enjoying a momentary connection is not a sign of being extrovert vs. introvert.

ahrtee · January 11, 2020

16 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

Sam has never seemed like a loner to me. Just a difference of perspective. I've always taken it that Sam is the extrovert. He latches onto pretty much anyone who gives him attention, while Dean is more reserved and better at reading people. Sure, Dean sleeps with women, but it is only because it feels good in the moment, not because he wants a relationship. Sam wants other relationships, he just isn't great at maintaining them because he does lack people skills.

Sam only has relationships with women. He doesn't have any drinking buddies, or guys he likes to hang out with. The only male we've ever heard about him be friends with was the guy in college who turned out to be a demon. Even Cas had to make the first move to be friends with him, and he doesn't really "hang out" with him for pleasure.

I'm not saying that's good or bad, just Sam. The women he likes are intelligent and strong, but they also tend to take care of him rather than be equals. I think they're trying to make Eileen seem more of an equal, but that's only by propping up her Magnificent Hunting Skillz. She still mops Sam's face and calls him to help her.

So Dean tends to like his friends (as opposed to one-night stands) to be equals (even Lisa called him on his bullshit time and again) and Sam likes people who take care of him and make him feel better. Maybe that comes from the way they were raised, and what they're used to.

Edited January 11, 2020 by ahrtee
Clarification.

Harleycat · January 11, 2020

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean is an extrovert and Sam is an introvert. Those two seem pretty obvious to me. I could never read them each as the opposite. Wanting lasting relationships vs. just enjoying a momentary connection is not a sign of being extrovert vs. introvert.

Maybe that is how you interpret it, but I just never have. Extroverts get their energy and are more creative around other people, that is Sam. Time after time Sam seeks out a community, weather it is the men of letters or his cousins or Garth and the loose network of other hunters Introverts need time alone to recharge. That doesn't mean that they are unsocial, just that they are their best selves when they have a lot of time to be quiet. When Sam and Dean were primarily in the car it was a fairly quiet life when they were not hunting. That was were Dean thrived. I've always seen him as a personable introverts who covers up him anxiety by being louder than necessary. When he is upset or needs to think he needs time alone while Sam needs to discuss his problems and feelings with other people.

ahrtee · January 11, 2020

4 hours ago, Harleycat said:

Maybe that is how you interpret it, but I just never have. Extroverts get their energy and are more creative around other people, that is Sam. Time after time Sam seeks out a community, weather it is the men of letters or his cousins or Garth and the loose network of other hunters Introverts need time alone to recharge. That doesn't mean that they are unsocial, just that they are their best selves when they have a lot of time to be quiet. When Sam and Dean were primarily in the car it was a fairly quiet life when they were not hunting. That was were Dean thrived. I've always seen him as a personable introverts who covers up him anxiety by being louder than necessary. When he is upset or needs to think he needs time alone while Sam needs to discuss his problems and feelings with other people.

I think that's more working styles than intro/extroversion. Dean is used to working things out alone (especially relying on his instincts) while Sam is more used to bouncing ideas off others. That could also be why Dean worked well with John and Sam didn't (with John's "need to know" attitude).

But you're right about the different ways the two types need to recharge. When they're not working on a hunt but just want to relax, Dean likes to go out to bars (not necessarily to pick up women) but to socialize, listen to music and play pool. Sam likes to stay at home and read. Those are the classic "extrovert/introvert" ways of recharging.

As the poster child for introversion myself, while I usually enjoy working with and even socializing with people on a more one-to-one basis, I don't do well in large, noisy, crowded places and need to be alone for many hours after being with people, even those I like. And remember that the only time Sam willingly joined a "community" of hunters (the Campbell clan, not the BMoL which wasn't really his choice and he didn't particularly like) it was because he was soulless, which would override his own natural instincts. And again, all the groups you mentioned were more working relationships than friendships. He had no personal interactions with any of them except (possibly) Garth.

JMO, of course

Edited January 11, 2020 by ahrtee
Additional thought/clarification

Aeryn13 · January 11, 2020

44 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

Maybe that is how you interpret it, but I just never have. Extroverts get their energy and are more creative around other people, that is Sam. Time after time Sam seeks out a community, weather it is the men of letters or his cousins or Garth and the loose network of other hunters Introverts need time alone to recharge. That doesn't mean that they are unsocial, just that they are their best selves when they have a lot of time to be quiet. When Sam and Dean were primarily in the car it was a fairly quiet life when they were not hunting. That was were Dean thrived. I've always seen him as a personable introverts who covers up him anxiety by being louder than necessary. When he is upset or needs to think he needs time alone while Sam needs to discuss his problems and feelings with other people.

I`m an introvert and in that way Sam is far closer to me which of course doesn`t mean the character is naturally endearing to me. Dean is the one who likes to go out and have fun with people, Sam would be the one to rather stay in and read.

Also, Sam does not actually like to discuss his problems and feelings. Over the course of the show he is very very guarded with that, he likes to prod and butt in to other people`s feelings and if they are not dealing with them in a way he deems right. For obvious reasons Dean is the major recipient of that busy-body-dom. But he actually is the less likely to care and share his own stuff. Meanwhile Dean, despite his "no chick flick" phrase, is far easier to sharing his own feelings.

I also wouldn`t describe Dean as shy. He has a low sense of self-worth, absolutely, but shy? Sam isn`t shy either. Dean can be "loud" and boisterous because he doesn`t particularly care about making a scene or being seen as "weird" by others. Sam may/does think very unkind things about others but he stays in a way more socially accepted lane because he cares a lot about, well, reputation and how thinks look. Even in the moment.

Which on some level is classical introvert. I hate being even around someone when they make a scene because then I`m kind of "implicated" in them. An extrovert couldn`t care less. They express themselves and world, be damned.

Him seeking out stuff like the MOL - and it wasn`t like he actually joined a society, they were pretty much dead out in the US, the brothers just moved into the bunker - is him seeking personal validation. Same with the hunters. He didn`t get personal with them a lot but they validated him. It was honestly more a question of ego. An introvert can have an ego-problem. Just because they don`t announce it on first glance, doesn`t mean it isn`t there.

Now obviously, neither introverts nor extroverts display their characteristic behaviours all the time. An introvert can go out and have fun and an extrovert wants their peace and quiet occasionally. Especially in situations of emotional trauma or duress. When a person is mourning or traumatized, even extroverts don`t wanna go out and be supremely social.

7kstar · January 11, 2020

The cool thing about the characters, there is a lot of room for interpretation.

People wouldn't think of me as shy, but I do have moments where I'm frozen and have a hard time talking to people. Yet I have given many impromptu speeches and most would see me as love being around people. At times I do but I also like to be alone.

Younger Dean doesn't come across as shy. Yet the act he displays covers up many of his feelings about himself.

What I loved about the show in the early years, was that you had so much room for the imagination of who these boys were. What made them tick.

I think that is why the fanfiction was so strong and is finally getting slower. The things that inspired us to write about them seemed fresh. Now it feels stale. I resent that the most.

I want to like both brothers, to be surprised not going really they went there? I want the brothers to stay complex. Because really it is fun trying to persuade people to see your point of view, even if they have a different viewpoint. I don't have to have anyone agree with me. But lately it doesn't feel there is much to ponder on.

I've been a fan since season 4, and I've never seen all Dean fans agree on everything. I don't want us too either.

It seems that the writers are stuck in the loop of role reversal. I think that is what really harmed season 6. If Sam and Dean had been allowed to compete for who is better hunter, I think it would have landed better. It would have created a natural conflict for Dean to leave Lisa and Ben. I think it would have worked better. JMV.

I see a lot of writing on many different shows as being stuck. The formula for what works in creating a show and gets fans isn't working like it use to work.

I wish I was more engaged this season, because I do need the distraction.

AwesomO4000 · January 12, 2020

13 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

What is Sam not the utter supreme specialist and expert in anymore?

A whole host of things in my opinion. Sam's fighting skills and hunting instincts are being shown as non-existent. He's generally either getting beat up (he got killed by Nick - human Nick! - in a fight for goodness sake), or not recognizing an obvious trap. Instead of saving civilians, he's usually getting them killed - often. He hardly ever makes the right strategic choice anymore, usually to disastrous results.

You complain about Dean being the "comic relief?" Well at least he's amusing. Sam is generally relegated to doing the stupid thing while only looking sad and pathetic while doing it. If he's not getting himself or a whole bunch of people killed, he's making idiotic or emotional decisions that turn out to have bad consequences that Dean has to sacrifice to fix (Jack / Lucifer) or he's making hot-headed decisions (let's forget that Sam had at one time actually made progress in that area) that start an apocalypse (shooting Chuck.) If someone needs to do something stupid to forward the plot, it's generally now Sam that the writers make do it. Pretty much Every. Single. Time. Castiel used to share this role with Sam before the Dabb era, but pretty much now, it's mainly Sam's role. (With the one exception being Castiel protecting unborn Jack.)

And for all of the supposed "tell" that Dabb may have said concerning showing Sam as a "leader," the writers sure spent an awful lot of time showing exactly how Sam was not very good at leading - there are a whole bunch of posts above in the introvert vs extrovert discussion outlining exactly this - and in case we didn't get that message from what they showed us, the best outing done by the AU hunters was conducted with Maggie doing the leading, not Sam... and then Sam got everyone including Maggie killed.

In my opinion, the sad thing is that Dabb showed Sam being a worse leader than he ever was in the early seasons. Sam can take the lead - "All Hell Breaks Loose, Pt 1" is the best example, but there were signs of it in "The Usual Suspects," "Afterschool Special," "Adventures in Babysitting," "The Born-Again Identity" and others - he generally just doesn't seem to prefer that role if someone else he trusts - usually Dean - is around to take the lead. Instead of showing that though, what Dabb managed to do was show that Sam doesn't mind being the leader and maybe even wants to be the leader... he just completely sucks at it.

And having Mommy say you are a super good leader doesn't count, especially when said Mommy has absolutely terrible instincts. If anything, in my opinion, that's just more evidence of the contrary actually.

I fail to see how that is showing Sam being an "utter supreme specialist" in everything. Sam gets a token oh, he's good at spells (and generally on this show who isn't?) and he can look things up in books. Somehow, in my opinion, that doesn't counteract all of the above stuff that they've made Sam entirely terrible at. Not by a long shot.

14 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

What does Dean have left at all other than being the humiliated comic relief?

Dean is still shown as a good fighter and hunter. He's still being shown as the one who has the best instincts. The one who people look to as the natural leader. The one who steps up and makes the hard decisions that save the day. On this show those are the important things, the fundamental things... and that Dean is generally the one who does them - to me - is the most important thing and greatly outweighs any small "oh Dean forgot what an Achilles' heel is" moments.

Who cares if a character knows what an Achilles' heel is if that charcater then turns around and hotheadedly shoots in a situation he shouldn't and basically causes an apocalypse, or makes an idiotic plan that takes everyone into a dangerous situation (where a civilian gets killed - along with himself!), or lets everyone under his charge get killed? For me, that character is being shown as way more of a dumbass than the one who didn't know what an Achilles' heel is, and the small crumbs like knowing that thrown his way are actually somewhat condescending,*** but obviously miles vary.

*** As in "well Sam stupidly joined the BMoL, didn't consider that the son of Lucifer might be dangerous (never mind his host might be dangerous after being possessed for so many years and ends up killing him), and started an apocalypse - again - but that's okay we'll have him know a fact that Dean doesn't. That'll even things out!" Me: screw you, writers.

ahrtee · January 12, 2020

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

A whole host of things in my opinion.

YMMV. Or mine do, anyway. 😊

AwesomO4000 · January 12, 2020

13 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean even had to ask Sam to fix the colt and he's supposed to be the weapons expect.

What makes the Colt the weapon that it is is not mechanical. It's magical. Without magic, the Colt is just a gun. Sam knows what makes the Colt tick, because Ruby told him how to make the bullets work (We saw that in "The Raid") and likely told him how the Colt itself works.

If Sam actually gets to be better at magic as everyone is complaining about, then in my opinion, it makes perfect sense that Dean ask Sam to fix the Colt. Sure Dean might be able to fix the "mechanics" of the Colt, but what difference would that make if the magical aspects of it aren't fixed? It would basically be just a gun that they have a whole bunch of already.

And yeah, I guess Dean could fix the gun itself and then have Sam do the magical stuff, but that would mean two writers would have to coordinate, because they might actually have to revisit the situation. Or the one writer would have to explain it with multiple sentences. It was easier to go with: magical gun, Sam fixes it. Done. No need to revisit or elaborate. Minimal effort by the writer to talk about something they likely just wanted to move on from and that would never be talked about again anyway.

I more see that than it was some slight against Dean, myself. But I understand that miles vary.

14 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

This last season he has 3 different storylines. With his relationship with Eileen, his connection to Chuck, and becoming a witch. Dean's been relegated to comic relief.

Reveal spoiler

Would it really be so awful if Dean was given one episode where he was allowed to be better at Sam at something. Especially at something he's supposed to be better than Sam.

Dean's the pool player but since its a Glynn ep and she sees him as dumb comic relief I'm sure you'll get your wish for Sam to be the supreme leader and bestest most specialist pool player ever.

Those aren't that great or developed stories in my opinion. And if Sam becoming a witch is supposedly a plot arc, then it's less developed than the Dean / Michael plot was by a long shot.

As for what's under the spoiler section, neither of those are my "wish" at all. All I want is for Sam to not be an incompetent idiot with no instincts who is always wrong, has almost no hunting skills, gets himself and other people killed, and starts apocalypses. Currently, Sam is basically someone who (supposedly) wants to lead, but sucks at it and who wants to hunt, but also sucks at that, too.

Being able to

Spoiler

play pool

better than Dean, is pretty much not even in the top 100 things I'd wish for Sam's character at this point. Neither would him being a good leader. That isn't Sam's character. I don't care about Sam being a great leader. I don't want Sam to want to be a great leader. I want him to want to be and be a good back up to the leader - Dean - like he was before Dabb got a hold of him. I happen to have liked Sam the way he was. I don't want him to be Dean. Or be like Dean. If I did, then Dean would be my favorite, not Sam.

I happen to think the non-leaders / supporters of the world have an important role to play also. A role that I think should be celebrated rather than diminished. Which, the diminishing that is, is basically what Dabb did with Sam. Dabb basically implied that Sam could only be important if he wanted to lead others... Too bad he sucked at it!

In my opinion, that is probably the second most insulting thing that's been done to Sam's character. In my opinion, it was in no way respectful of Sam as a character. If Dabb was being respectful of Sam's character, he would've let Sam actually be Sam rather than trying to turn him into something he wasn't.

But that's just my opinion on that.

Harleycat · January 12, 2020

22 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

What makes the Colt the weapon that it is is not mechanical. It's magical. Without magic, the Colt is just a gun. Sam knows what makes the Colt tick, because Ruby told him how to make the bullets work (We saw that in "The Raid") and likely told him how the Colt itself works.

If Sam actually gets to be better at magic as everyone is complaining about, then in my opinion, it makes perfect sense that Dean ask Sam to fix the Colt. Sure Dean might be able to fix the "mechanics" of the Colt, but what difference would that make if the magical aspects of it aren't fixed? It would basically be just a gun that they have a whole bunch of already.

And yeah, I guess Dean could fix the gun itself and then have Sam do the magical stuff, but that would mean two writers would have to coordinate, because they might actually have to revisit the situation. Or the one writer would have to explain it with multiple sentences. It was easier to go with: magical gun, Sam fixes it. Done. No need to revisit or elaborate. Minimal effort by the writer to talk about something they likely just wanted to move on from and that would never be talked about again anyway.

I more see that than it was some slight against Dean, myself. But I understand that miles vary.

Those aren't that great or developed stories in my opinion. And if Sam becoming a witch is supposedly a plot arc, then it's less developed than the Dean / Michael plot was by a long shot.

As for what's under the spoiler section, neither of those are my "wish" at all. All I want is for Sam to not be an incompetent idiot with no instincts who is always wrong, has almost no hunting skills, gets himself and other people killed, and starts apocalypses. Currently, Sam is basically someone who (supposedly) wants to lead, but sucks at it and who wants to hunt, but also sucks at that, too.

Hide contents

Very well said. It wasn't implied that Dean can't fix a gun. Dean was worried about Cas and asked if Sam could fix it. Sam said yes and he did. End of story, it wasn't even that interesting. After 13 years of using guns all the time you would hope that Sam would be able to fix the mechanical parts of one without having to rely on big brother to do it.

For every moment that Sam gets to figure something out Dean gets 3. It's not like I'm complaining, we got to see Dean grow up and develop wisdom from his experiences and learn how to care about and mentor others without just taking over. I just don't see them as doing the same for Sam. They have given him a very little bit of skill development, but almost no character development.

Sign In

“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

Aeryn13

BabySpinach

BabySpinach

Posted Images

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment