“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I didn't think about it so much at first, but it does seem odd. Especially his bitterness about having to "carry the weight" for the normal people. I honestly thought that this was something Sam had come to terms with years ago.

Maybe he’s channeling Chuck.  Feeling some of Chuck’s resentment. 

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/4/2019 at 5:32 PM, Shannonsspirit said:

I have wondered why the CW brass has not hauled Andrew Dabb in to discuss and rectify his destruction of a show that cohesively and meaningfully lasted so many years. Retcon and rewriting history of established lore and canon of both story and character are the obvious contributors of the downhill spiral in both ratings and the confidence of the principal actors. Add to that poor writing and dropped stories, it seems like ample justification for termination of a showrunner's contract. The spirit of the contract has been breached. 

I also wonder what the president of the CW meant when he said that he knows of another network that would like to pick up Supernatural and Jensen saying he is open to talks.

Another network and Jensen open to talks... maybe if he can pick the writers and jettison Dabbler and Hacks and Singer and the nepotism duo.

[AwesomO4000]

9 hours ago, Katy M said:

I love Sam, but he's always been somewhat of a downer all the way back to Season 1.

I actually disagree with this. Until recent seasons, I found Sam to be the optimistic one more often than not. When things seemed most dire, Sam was generally the one saying "we'll find a way" sometimes with the coda of "we always do." In season 2, he kept thinking he could make something good out of his power and that he could turn Jake around with positive thinking. It was the case in season 3 when Sam kept insisting he would find a way to save Dean. And in season 5 at the end of "Dark Side of the Moon" when everyone else was sure nothing could be done, Sam didn't give up. And in season 7 when Sam believed Castiel could be reached despite going off the deep end, and again when they were going up against the Leviathans. Sam even put a positive spin on his seeing Lucifer hallucinations. Then in mid season 8 with his "light at the end of the tunnel" thing - until the end of the season when all of a sudden he was suicidal (in my opinion Carver sucked at Sam's characterization, and it was hardly ever consistent.)

Sam was sure in season 10 that he could cure Dean and that any fallout could be fixed, and then at the end of season 11 when everyone else was ready to give up, Sam was sure they could find a way to stop Amara. Sam's being the cheerleader was his only contribution to that resolution, so I remember his optimism quite clearly.

Generally Sam's optimism even can get him into trouble - as seems to be the case in the Dabb era. See the (awful) "The Raid" for an example. How anyone could get something positive out of that fiasco, I have no idea, but somehow Sam did.

So basically I more agree with @Bergamot in that I also think that Sam came to terms with all of this quite a while ago and was fine with it... in season 6B, Sam's whole deal was wanting to make a difference in the world, and that comes with some burden involved which Sam seemed quite fine with.... happy even in order to make a difference (see "The French Mistake.") When you say you wouldn't trade over 100 years of hell experiences, because then you wouldn't have been able to make a difference in the world - and mean it - then you aren't going to be whining about the "burdens of the job." (Until Carver gets a hold of you anyway - then you fluctuate wildly between "I've paid enough, it's not my problem anymore," "there's light at the end of the tunnel," and "so? (why shouldn't I want to kill myself, can't you see I've been suicidal all this time?)." Me: "um, no. It more came out of left field, but whatever... this season sucks.")

Dabb has had Sam similarly fluctuate, usually becoming pessimistic in response to something bad happening to one of Dabb's favorite characters - Mary, Jack, or in this case Rowena - but in my opinion, Sam was generally the more optimistic one, sometimes to the point of being naive, whereas Dean took a more realistic and sometimes pessimistic view of things... with Castiel: Good things do happen, Dean" Dean: "Not in my experience," being a good example.

I think Sam is now mopey and pessimistic for plot reasons more than anything else. I'm sure he'll learn some very special lesson or other to see the light as to why he shouldn't have been so pessimistic, but for me, it doesn't ring true. Neither does his current generally humorless personality. In my opinion, Sam used to be quite amusing, generally in a more subtle way, but amusing nonetheless.

Edited November 9, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[gonzosgirrl]

Sam might have been 'optimistic', but with very few exceptions, he's humorless and dour. There were a few moments early on, but unless he was drunk or cursed (I lost), he barely smiles and rarely laughs. He rolls his eyes at Dean's sense of humor, belittles every fun/silly thing that Dean likes and is generally a judgey douche when it comes to his brother.

I'm seriously tired of the double standards when it comes to them being depressed/down - Sam is framed as noble and long-suffering, while Dean is weak or mean.

[trudysmom]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam used to be quite amusing, generally in a more subtle way, but amusing nonetheless.

My favorite Sam moment is in S6, Clap you Hands if you Believe.  They are on the phone, Dean is being pursued by what he thinks are aliens, yelling "Close encounters, close encounters!"  Sam says, "you better run man, I think the 4th kind is a butt thing".  I LOL every time, it's gold.  Soulless Sam had more personality than, well, almost any other Sam.  

[AwesomO4000]

18 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sam might have been 'optimistic', but with very few exceptions, he's humorless and dour. There were a few moments early on, but unless he was drunk or cursed (I lost), he barely smiles and rarely laughs.

I disagree. For me Sam has a drier sense of humor, but that's the kind of humor I appreciate, so I notice it. But I guess it also depends on when you consider "early on." The Carver years definitely killed Sam's sense of humor - along with most of Sam's other good qualities - but for me there was plenty of Sam humor through season 7.

Soulless Sam had some humor, for sure, though it was a bit on the insensitive side, but that's not what I'm talking about in terms of Sam humor. My favorite examples of Sam humor are actually from seasons 5 through 7. One of the funniest moments for me of the entire series was Sam's "should I honk?" from "Changing Channels," but he was funny in "The Real Ghostbusters" from season 5, too. I loved his humor in "The French Mistake" ("I bought part of a dead person" - hee!).  And "Fronteirland." The entire restaurant scene in "How to Win Friends..." was gold for me ("Well there goes his 18%"). Actually despite the Lucifer hallucinations, there was quite a bit of humorous Sam in season 7 also: "Slash Fiction," The previously mentioned "How to...," "Season 7 Time for a Wedding," "Plucky Pennywhistle's...," and "Out With the Old." Sam even kept his sense of humor when he was dying in "The Born-Again Identity." "Reading is Fundamental" had some fun Sam moments also, especially between Sam and Kevin. And even the flashbacks in "Death's Door" showed some amusing Sam.

Unfortunately many of the writers who wrote Sam well and gave him more depth and humor didn't transition to or didn't have much influence in season 8 - which is where they decided to get rid of most of Sam's good personality traits and instead ramp up his bad ones to 11 (well more like 35).  Which is another reason why I argue against the writers doing anything but trying to assassinate Sam's character in the Carver years. But then again, there seemed to be a general trend to get rid of any and all humor during the Carver years, and once Ben Edlund left - he wrote the only two episodes of season 8 I liked - that was pretty much the end of that (except for the occasional Robbie Thompson or Snyder and Charmelo episode. And a Jenny Klein episode or two.) Robbie Thompson knew how to write a Sam that wasn't a wet blanket and who supported Dean's more fun side - see "LARP and the Real Girl" for example - but he was fighting a losing battle that season.

18 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He rolls his eyes at Dean's sense of humor, belittles every fun/silly thing that Dean likes and is generally a judgey douche when it comes to his brother.

I disagree with this also. It does happen sometimes, but it depends on the writer. Just like some writers make Dean a douche about the things that Sam likes and does, with Dean belittling things from Sam's choice in shampoo through to his choice of coffee and the books he reads and movies he likes to watch.

Some times I think also that Dean is trying to get Sam's goat, so he then shouldn't be all hurt and offended when Sam reacts with the eye rolling. Sam used to indulge Dean early on, even to his own detriment (The "Bikini Inspector" incident, and the "cover stories" in "Playthings" and "A Very Supernatural Christmas" are good examples of this), but later on as their situation became more dire and their relationship became strained, Sam had less tolerance for that kind of thing.

Sam is much less likely to suppress and cover up with humor. He more likes to talk things out, and since that less compatible with Dean's ways of dealing, it only makes sense to me that he was later less tolerant of attempts to obfuscate with humor and bravado.

But that's just my opinion on all of that. Others' miles will obviously vary.

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/4/2019 at 5:08 PM, Shannonsspirit said:

My assumption stemmed from sarcasm. The heart and soul of the show has been shattered by the meaningless and absurd retcon of Chuck. I had held out hope for something more profound. I think it's going to be a lazy and shallow rehash of something with a disturbed conclusion to make the audience cry.

Well Atomic Monsters hints at Dean holding out a la The End so maybe we are looking at solo Sam going dark because Dean is unable to save him this time AND Dean goes Gonzo Commando with the bro force which eventually fails and then he tries something desperate... saying yes to Michael who needs the OTV... (If he needs to say yes at this point? It might be an open door from the last Michael's machinations.) Making a deal with Amara or someone else. Maybe a combination of the aforementioned to save Sammy and the world which are what Dean does care the most about

... Certainly not himself. This is self-evident, even to Dabbler and Hacks. They pretty much made an entire season about it.

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/8/2019 at 10:32 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

I actually disagree with this. Until recent seasons, I found Sam to be the optimistic one more often than not. When things seemed most dire, Sam was generally the one saying "we'll find a way" sometimes with the coda of "we always do." In season 2, he kept thinking he could make something good out of his power and that he could turn Jake around with positive thinking. It was the case in season 3 when Sam kept insisting he would find a way to save Dean. And in season 5 at the end of "Dark Side of the Moon" when everyone else was sure nothing could be done, Sam didn't give up. And in season 7 when Sam believed Castiel could be reached despite going off the deep end, and again when they were going up against the Leviathans. Sam even put a positive spin on his seeing Lucifer hallucinations. Then in mid season 8 with his "light at the end of the tunnel" thing - until the end of the season when all of a sudden he was suicidal (in my opinion Carver sucked at Sam's characterization, and it was hardly ever consistent.)

Sam was sure in season 10 that he could cure Dean and that any fallout could be fixed, and then at the end of season 11 when everyone else was ready to give up, Sam was sure they could find a way to stop Amara. Sam's being the cheerleader was his only contribution to that resolution, so I remember his optimism quite clearly.

Generally Sam's optimism even can get him into trouble - as seems to be the case in the Dabb era. See the (awful) "The Raid" for an example. How anyone could get something positive out of that fiasco, I have no idea, but somehow Sam did.

So basically I more agree with @Bergamot in that I also think that Sam came to terms with all of this quite a while ago and was fine with it... in season 6B, Sam's whole deal was wanting to make a difference in the world, and that comes with some burden involved which Sam seemed quite fine with.... happy even in order to make a difference (see "The French Mistake.") When you say you wouldn't trade over 100 years of hell experiences, because then you wouldn't have been able to make a difference in the world - and mean it - then you aren't going to be whining about the "burdens of the job." (Until Carver gets a hold of you anyway - then you fluctuate wildly between "I've paid enough, it's not my problem anymore," "there's light at the end of the tunnel," and "so? (why shouldn't I want to kill myself, can't you see I've been suicidal all this time?)." Me: "um, no. It more came out of left field, but whatever... this season sucks.")

Dabb has had Sam similarly fluctuate, usually becoming pessimistic in response to something bad happening to one of Dabb's favorite characters - Mary, Jack, or in this case Rowena - but in my opinion, Sam was generally the more optimistic one, sometimes to the point of being naive, whereas Dean took a more realistic and sometimes pessimistic view of things... with Castiel: Good things do happen, Dean" Dean: "Not in my experience," being a good example.

I think Sam is now mopey and pessimistic for plot reasons more than anything else. I'm sure he'll learn some very special lesson or other to see the light as to why he shouldn't have been so pessimistic, but for me, it doesn't ring true. Neither does his current generally humorless personality. In my opinion, Sam used to be quite amusing, generally in a more subtle way, but amusing nonetheless.

I always thought his optimism in season 2 was self serving. He wanted the psikids to be good and he wanted his powers to be good because he wanted to prove John wrong (and Dean wrong). John knew the powers came from demon blood of course and Dean knew what little dad had told him which was dire and frightening.

In season 3 he felt tremendous guilt. He had to save Dean because Dean sacrificed himself for Sam. It lead him to make poor choices like trusting a demon and seeming kinda okay with human sacrifice... that shoulder shrug of his in Jus in Bello always creeps me out. 

I just always see a negative angle to Sam's moods. That speech in the Trials was a putdown to Dean on par with the Purge. The truth was Dean understood that the trials were a death sentence and Sam foolishly did not. Dean was ready to die for something. Sam was doing them foolishly to prove something to Dean. 

In season 10 Sam was desperate to save Dean because he could not let him turn into a demon. It's the mirror season to Dean being desperate to save Mary in s 13. And both end horribly with each brothers making a terrible mistake. There is nothing optimistic about Sam that season. He lies to Dean and nearly gets him killed. He lies to Charlie and gets her killed. He lies to Cas and nearly gets him killed. He makes a deal with a dangerous witch and hands over two powerful grimoire to her. He nearly gets himself killed performing an assassination for her. He sanctions human sacrifice. 

Lol. They always manage to take Sam so much darker than Dean. Dean makes a snap judgement in the heat of the moment and there are bad repercussions. Sammy spends a season executing a series of increasing bad decisions. Oh my.

[Shannonsspirit]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Well Atomic Monsters hints at Dean holding out a la The End so maybe we are looking at solo Sam going dark because Dean is unable to save him this time AND Dean goes Gonzo Commando with the bro force which eventually fails and then he tries something desperate... saying yes to Michael who needs the OTV... (If he needs to say yes at this point? It might be an open door from the last Michael's machinations.) Making a deal with Amara or someone else. Maybe a combination of the aforementioned to save Sammy and the world which are what Dean does care the most about

... Certainly not himself. This is self-evident, even to Dabbler and Hacks. They pretty much made an entire season about it.

The only thing that made it seem as though Sam's dream was focused on an AU, is the inclusion of Benny. I don't theorize anymore, because writers lie and retcon stuff in the name of the Lord.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

The only thing that made it seem as though Sam's dream was focused on an AU, is the inclusion of Benny. I don't theorize anymore, because writers lie and retcon stuff in the name of the Lord.

Or there is something coming with Sam and demon Blood and he envisioned Benny because of the consternation Dean's relationship caused Sam.  I still maintain that Sam was flat out jealous of Benny and I can see him having Benny be with Dean in his dream and Demon Blood Sam killing both of them would seem apt.

[Shannonsspirit]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Or there is something coming with Sam and demon Blood and he envisioned Benny because of the consternation Dean's relationship caused Sam.  I still maintain that Sam was flat out jealous of Benny and I can see him having Benny be with Dean in his dream and Demon Blood Sam killing both of them would seem apt.

Wow. That's just disturbing 

[ILoveReading]

IMO, since that script called for just a random person at first and it was Jensen's idea that it be Benny, I don't think it was anything more than just Ty doing Jensen a favor.

[Smad]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Lol. They always manage to take Sam so much darker than Dean. Dean makes a snap judgement in the heat of the moment and there are bad repercussions. Sammy spends a season executing a series of increasing bad decisions. Oh my.

And yet the writers and part of the fandom always excuse him for it. While Dean is dragged through the mud by the writers and audience for a snap judgement in an episode, poor put upon Sam doesn't receive worse for his constant attempts to the end the entire freaking Earth.

He knows what happens to the world if you kill God. Yet he shoots him anyway for no reason than 'hey asshole'. As a result, God says screw it and unleashes hell. What follows is of course more dead people. And now because of the 'bullet wound', God is trapped on their Earth and free to wreak even more havoc.

Unleashing the Darkness could have ended the world. Dean with the mark was only a danger to those who were in his immediate vicinity. Amara could have destroyed the entire planet. You were warned Sam, yet you couldn't bother to immediately get out your phone when you were told by Death what removing the mark would unleash. Yeah Death was full of it, he never knows what he's talking about, unlike Sammy.

He should have gone through with the trials no matter Dean said. Every person in the world that has died since then because of a monster from hell, is all on Sam (and Dean). I thought the mission was saving people? When did these guys become so damn selfish that the greater good no longer mattered? Sam is the one whose actions tend to lead to world ending events, maybe it would be a good thing if he died. His body count is already astronomical. Damn co-dependency keeps screwing over humanity.

My favorite will always be unleashing Lucifer. Did Sam know that would happen? No. But that's not the problem for me. It was a direct result of Sam's choices, issues and inferiority/superiority complex. It had nothing to do with the blood 'poisoning him'. Lilith was not why he drank the demon blood, she was the excuse. Whenever the boys were influenced by a monster and couldn't lie or had their inhibitions taken from them, the truth always spilled from Sam's mouth. He thought he was better than Dean, that Dean dragged him down, that he was a better hunter. The demon blood made him a superhunter ('I saved more people in the last few months than we save in a year'). And Dean holds him back, is weak, dumb and just a soldier. Only Sam knows what's best because he's awesome.

And right after he unleashes Lucifer, he takes a freaking time out. If this were Dean, he would have soldiered on because he screwed up and lives were at stake. And the writers wouldn't have given him a timeout because he isn't 'woo is me' Sammy. People were dying all over, suck it up and fix it. And by Season 7 I believe, he's all 'I don't feel any guilt anymore for what I've done'. Seriously? All that death during S5. I'm not saying to let guilt cripple you but how can you just absolve yourself of that? Just before the big Michael/Lucifer showdown, we were shown that natural disasters were happening all over the world. Those are giant catastrophic events for humans. How many people died from those? How many people lost everything from a Tornado, flooding, Tsunami, Earthquake etc.? Heck just before Dean showed up, Death was about to destroy freaking Chicago. How can you not feel guilt?

[AwesomO4000]

The following is all my own opinion. Also despite these opinions, I do like Dean as a character. That being said...

4 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I always thought his optimism in season 2 was self serving. He wanted the psikids to be good and he wanted his powers to be good because he wanted to prove John wrong (and Dean wrong). John knew the powers came from demon blood of course and Dean knew what little dad had told him which was dire and frightening.

John was dead, and in season 2 Sam was all about wanting to atone by "doing what Dad would have wanted." There was no more "proving John wrong" at that point. That ship had sailed after John's death.

I agree there was some self-serving in his optimism, but it was because Sam himself didn't want to be fated to be evil. In my opinion, it had nothing to do with proving anyone else "wrong" and it was still optimism instead of being defeatist and just going ahead and accepting his fate.

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

In season 3 he felt tremendous guilt. He had to save Dean because Dean sacrificed himself for Sam.

Yes, Sam did feel guilt... Guilt that wasn't of his own making. Dean decided to make the deal. Dean brought Sam back from a likely peaceful afterlife in heaven... however Sam was never allowed to be angry about that, because it was always framed as a sacrifice from Dean. So therefore Sam got painted as the bad guy who made "bad choices," wasn't appreciative enough of Dean's sacrifice, and was shouldered with causing the apocalypse - never mind all of the bad choices a whole bunch of others made that contributed to Lucifer rising. Nope it was all Sam's fault.

Now yes, Sam made a lot of bad choices, and he paid for them by getting all the blame for the apocalypse. But unlike Dean, Sam was painted as the "bad guy" rather than the sympathetic one who sacrificed his life for his brother even though that brother never would have wanted him to to begin with.

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

That speech in the Trials was a putdown to Dean on par with the Purge.

I completely disagree.

Quote

Dean makes a snap judgement in the heat of the moment and there are bad repercussions. Sammy spends a season executing a series of increasing bad decisions. Oh my.

Dean's repercussions for making snap judgements pretty much ended with his going to hell at the end of season 3. Carver threw all of that out the window. In seasons 9 through 11, Dean made a lot of snap decisions that had very little repercussions. Gadreel, his taking the mark, killing Death - all snap decisions that had almost no repercussions. Dean gets to make mistakes and still somehow be right about making them. Sam (or Castiel) makes a mistake and apocalypses get started.

I would also argue that despite Gadreel initially being a snap judgement, Dean's efforts to help Gadreel stay were not. They were very much a series of increasingly bad decisions. However, in the case of Dean, they are excused*** and there are no lasting bad consequences. No apocalypses, no lots of dead people, and even Kevin being killed turns out to have good consequences (saving his mother).

*** They aren't even brought up again, not even in the big speech that Sam makes in "The Purge," despite being lied to being a thing for Sam previously. Of course not, because then Sam couldn't be turned into a hypocrite for doing the same thing later, and Sam complaining about falsehoods instead of the fact that Dean lied couldn't make Sam look badly while the camera focuses on poor, devastated Dean's face.

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

He lies to Charlie and gets her killed.

Sam didn't lie to Charlie, and Sam did not get Charlie killed. The Styne assassin killed Charlie - after a bad snap decision she made. Yup, even Charlie has repercussions for her bad snap decisions. But of course, Sam got blamed for it.

Quote

He nearly gets himself killed performing an assassination for her. He sanctions human sacrifice. 

An assassination of Crowely. I say good riddance. Crowley did kill Sarah - in front of Sam - and other innocents, and helped turn Dean into a demon. Sam would've been justified in killing Crowley just on principle.

And no, Sam didn't condone human sacrifice. At all. Sam had no idea that Oskar was even alive, never mind being anywhere in the vicinity when he was killed. But I've already explained this in detail, and have no desire to rehash those details.

2 hours ago, Smad said:

And yet the writers and part of the fandom always excuse him for it. While Dean is dragged through the mud by the writers and audience for a snap judgement in an episode, poor put upon Sam doesn't receive worse for his constant attempts to the end the entire freaking Earth.

When was Dean dragged through the mud by the writers for a snap judgement? Gadreel? (though that being a "snap judgement" is debatable in my opinion... the initial decision was. The constant lying to help keep Gadreel in Sam for months was a long term choice.) But nonetheless, Dean was proven right and Sam was shown to be a hypocrite, and the only bad consequence - Kevin - was entirely whitewashed and half blamed on Sam later on. In my opinion, if the writers wanted to "drag Dean through the mud" for his snap decision, Sam wouldn't have tried to save Dean in the season 9 finale (there would have been no "I lied") and something awful would have happened - and stuck - as a result. Gadreel would have used Sam to start an apocalypse or have done something that caused lots of innocent people to die. That's a consequence.

What the writers wanted was some angst before they showed how wrong mean Sam was for castigating Dean  - since Sam did the same thing, so everything he accused Dean of now applies to Sam as well - and how Gadreel turned out to be a good guy. I'm not sure how that's dragging Dean through the mud. Meanwhile all of the things Dean said to Sam as a demon and when under the influence of the mark are allowed to stand, no whitewashing, and Sam doing the same thing Dean did - trying to save Dean from a consequence of a bad decision Dean made - causes an apocalypse which God himself blames Sam for while absolving Dean of any blame.

So Dean was absolved of all of the bad decisions he made while Sam was blamed for starting an apocalypse for his. I'm not seeing how Dean was dragged through the mud here.

2 hours ago, Smad said:

He knows what happens to the world if you kill God. Yet he shoots him anyway for no reason than 'hey asshole'.

Substitute "Death" for "God" and "kills him with a scythe" for "shoots him" and Dean did almost the exact same thing. But when Dean does it, it's okay, and good things happen as a result.

Apparently it's okay for Dean to make rash decisions and kill powerful cosmic powers or make questionable decisions to save his brother, but if Sam does the same thing, he causes an apocalypse.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Smad said:

And by Season 7 I believe, he's all 'I don't feel any guilt anymore for what I've done'. Seriously?

That's not what Sam said exactly.

He said that there was no wiping the slate clean, but that he thought that he'd paid enough for his sins.

Not that that was a good episode anyway - the writer of that episode doesn't write Sam in a positive light generally - or that it really reflected Sam in the rest of the season.

I always interpreted that Lucifer partially represented Sam's guilt. Sam tried to push it aside and not acknowledge it so much, and when he did acknowledge it, it drove him crazy.

Edited November 11, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[juppschmitz]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And no, Sam didn't condone human sacrifice. At all.

Well, he did in season three when he was willing to sacrifice Ella-from-Lucifer Nancy-the-Virgin. 

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Substitute "Death" for "God" and "kills him with a scythe" for "shoots him" and Dean did almost the exact same thing. But when Dean does it, it's okay, and good things happen as a result.

I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but was anyone actually aware of any repercussions of killing Death? Were there actually any? Other than the next reaper to be killed becoming the next Death? 🤔

[Shannonsspirit]

What is all this hostility about the brothers? Why are you pitting one against the other?

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Substitute "Death" for "God" and "kills him with a scythe" for "shoots him" and Dean did almost the exact same thing. But when Dean does it, it's okay, and good things happen as a result.

Personally, I would have loved to see Dean face some consequences for this. What you see as him getting off scot free, I see as yet another fizzled storyline for Dean, ignored or summarily dropped, or handed to someone else. 

1 hour ago, Shannonsspirit said:

What is all this hostility about the brothers? Why are you pitting one against the other?

See the thread title.

[AwesomO4000]

13 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but was anyone actually aware of any repercussions of killing Death? Were there actually any? Other than the next reaper to be killed becoming the next Death?

No, they didn't know of any specific repercussions, but neither did Sam know exactly what would happen if he got rid of the mark of Cain.

What Dean did know was that Death was a powerful being - one who said that he would reap God someday - and that messing with the order of nature of things lead to bad consequences. Dean learned that in "Appointment in Samarra," and Death told Dean often enough that some things shouldn't be done - like poking the cage if he tried to get Sam out - or there would be repercussions.

So no, Dean didn't know exactly what would happen when he killed Death - but that's my point. I can't imagine that killing an eons old cosmic being who is powerful enough to reap God and who keeps the balance when it comes to the souls of people who die would not be considered something risky to do. They didn't know about Amara yet. For all Sam and Dean knew, Death was the balance to God, and killing Death could have thrown the universe out of whack, or could have meant that anyone who died would now have no way to be judged or move on, or any number of awful cosmic consequences. Sure reapers are the ones who take souls - and we saw the consequences of them not doing that in "Death Takes a Holiday" - but how did Dean know that The Death wasn't the source of power for all of the reapers of the world and that killing Death might mean that no reapers could do their job? In my opinion, he didn't. He just took a chance that nothing bad or at least something fixable would happen. Kind of like Sam when he went ahead with getting rid of the mark. Just because there was no specific warning of "this could be bad" - to me - doesn't logically mean that Dean - given all of his experience with Death and the supernatural world - shouldn't have considered that maybe killing Death might be a really, really bad idea.

But because Dean did it, he gets the "good instincts" shield, and nothing happens... well actually as you pointed out, something sort of happens, but it ends up being more positive than anything else, since Billie ends up becoming somewhat of an ally. So why does Dean get to do things like kill Death with no repercussions, but other characters - including Sam and Castiel - have these huge repercussions when they make a mistake like that?

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Personally, I would have loved to see Dean face some consequences for this. What you see as him getting off scot free, I see as yet another fizzled storyline for Dean, ignored or summarily dropped, or handed to someone else. 

I would agree with this, except that things do sometimes happen as a result - as with Gadreel - they just generally end up being good things. It's not as if nothing happened at all - there was Billie. It's just that Billie ended up being more of an ally instead of being pissed off and causing problems.

That's the thing that seems odd to me. Not only does nothing bad usually happen... it ends up that it was a good thing that Dean made that crazy, reckless decision, because if he hadn't any number of good things wouldn't have happened. The list of positives with Gadreel is huge: Sam not being dead, Charlie being brought back to life, Castiel being brought back to life, Kevin's mother being found and so not being dead, Gadreel helping to defeat Metatron, and I'm sure that I'm missing some. And as I said, Billie also ended up being a positive, too.

I wouldn't mind so much if something reckless Sam or Castiel did also somehow ended up being a positive every once in a while, but that hardly ever happens if at all... it's generally apocalypse-causing bad consequences every time, making them look like total idiots.

And even though Sam caused Amara, it didn't even end up being his story. It was more Dean's and Chuck's story, so a character having repercussions doesn't necessarily mean he/she gets a story out of it either. It just ends up being blamed on them.

Edited November 11, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[Katy M]

48 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

No, they didn't know of any specific repercussions, but neither did Sam know exactly what would happen if he got rid of the mark of Cain.

Dean basically said two episodes ago that they don't worry about repercussions.  They just deal with them.  And I find that to be a pretty accurate statement.

1. Sam didn't seem to worry about what drinking demon blood would do to him other than allow him to kill Lillith. Anyone with half a brain would know that wasn't a good idea.

2. Dean didn't worry about anything that might go wrong making a deal with Death to bring Sam's soul back.

3.  Neither one of them considered that maybe shutting the gates of Hell might not be a good idea as it might trap hellbound spirits on earth.

4. Dean didn't worry that letting Zeke into Sam might mean not being able to get him out later.

5. Cain told Dean straight up that there would be consequences or a price to taking the mark.  Dean was like, its all good, gimme.

6. Sam knew there would be another curse placed if he used the Book to remove the Mark of Cain from Dean. He said, it's all good, gimme.

7.  Sam (and Dean also really)  didn't stop to think, or maybe just care, that working with pscyhos like the BMOLs might come back to bite them in the butt.

8.  They didn't worry about what all their interdimensional frequent flyer miles might do.

9.  Dean didn't worry about the flip side of getting MIchael out, and I don't want to hear about how he thought he had a deal.  Even I'm not that naïve.

10. LIly Sunder put a warning label on her soul thing to bring Jack back.  Another, I don't care, gimme.

That'll do for now.   

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Dean basically said two episodes ago that they don't worry about repercussions.  They just deal with them.  And I find that to be a pretty accurate statement.

1. Sam didn't seem to worry about what drinking demon blood would do to him other than allow him to kill Lillith. Anyone with half a brain would know that wasn't a good idea.

2. Dean didn't worry about anything that might go wrong making a deal with Death to bring Sam's soul back.

3.  Neither one of them considered that maybe shutting the gates of Hell might not be a good idea as it might trap hellbound spirits on earth.

4. Dean didn't worry that letting Zeke into Sam might mean not being able to get him out later.

5. Cain told Dean straight up that there would be consequences or a price to taking the mark.  Dean was like, its all good, gimme.

6. Sam knew there would be another curse placed if he used the Book to remove the Mark of Cain from Dean. He said, it's all good, gimme.

7.  Sam (and Dean also really)  didn't stop to think, or maybe just care, that working with pscyhos like the BMOLs might come back to bite them in the butt.

8.  They didn't worry about what all their interdimensional frequent flyer miles might do.

9.  Dean didn't worry about the flip side of getting MIchael out, and I don't want to hear about how he thought he had a deal.  Even I'm not that naïve.

10. LIly Sunder put a warning label on her soul thing to bring Jack back.  Another, I don't care, gimme.

That'll do for now.   

But everything was all Chuck's machinations, so what does any of matter if it was all just about what Chuck wanted-in all things. 

Oh, but wait, let's flip things around and just have the brothers do the opposite of what Chuck wants-spec only, but it's clearly what's coming, IMO and It's practically written already and no few of us know that already too;  but it's The End of this nonsense too, so there's that.😑

Edited November 12, 2019 by Myrelle
Revision

[Smad]

14 hours ago, Myrelle said:

But everything was all Chuck's machinations, so what does any of matter if it was all just about what Chuck wanted-in all things.

But here is the problem with the whole 'it was all written by God' scenario. The Amara storyline doesn't fit into it. If it had turned out that Amara was just another character invented and written by God, then fine. But apparently she is real and at least equal to God in power. She would be the one being he can't write about to dictate her actions. And he knows that she would have a major beef with him once she was released. And sure while he locked himself in apparently the safest box in existence (the bar), he seems to be the kind of guy to eventually get bored just sitting there. He would need to come out of hiding to create again (writing) and she would be there to either confront him or smash up what he's created.

It's just one of the many reason why this nonsensical storyline with 'God the bad guy' they've started in 14x20 was a stupid idea. Because whatever ending he wrote is in danger if there is just one person to remind the brothers to call on Amara for help. Because I'm still baffled that they haven't done that yet. But I guess I'm supposed to excuse that with 'God wrote the brothers not to think of getting Amara to help them'. But she has free will and could step in of her own volition and he can't stop her from doing that. Then there is also The Entity to consider, it's another wild card God probably can't control.

This story turn just makes no sense to me.

[Aeryn13]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

But here is the problem with the whole 'it was all written by God' scenario. The Amara storyline doesn't fit into it. If it had turned out that Amara was just another character invented and written by God, then fine. But apparently she is real and at least equal to God in power. She would be the one being he can't write about to dictate her actions. And he knows that she would have a major beef with him once she was released. And sure while he locked himself in apparently the safest box in existence (the bar), he seems to be the kind of guy to eventually get bored just sitting there. He would need to come out of hiding to create again (writing) and she would be there to either confront him or smash up what he's created.

It's just one of the many reason why this nonsensical storyline with 'God the bad guy' they've started in 14x20 was a stupid idea. Because whatever ending he wrote is in danger if there is just one person to remind the brothers to call on Amara for help. Because I'm still baffled that they haven't done that yet. But I guess I'm supposed to excuse that with 'God wrote the brothers not to think of getting Amara to help them'. But she has free will and could step in of her own volition and he can't stop her from doing that. Then there is also The Entity to consider, it's another wild card God probably can't control.

This story turn just makes no sense to me.

Even in Season 15 they have her literally stating to him that even on his best day, he couldn`t force her hand in anything. And he doesn`t refute that. She was never part of his story, meaning the Amara parts of Season 11 weren`t Chuck`s writing. She actually did almost kill him, she actually did like Dean, she actually did change her mind at the end. That`s why the Season 11 Finale, despite it being so shoddily written, can work as a Series Finale. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

That`s why the Season 11 Finale, despite it being so shoddily written, can work as a Series Finale. 

Barring a stunningly surprising turn of events from now til 15x20, and with a very few exceptions from 11x23 to date, that's where the series ends for me. Those few episodes I truly enjoyed, like Regarding Dean and Scooby-Doo and Nihilism, I'll consider one-offs.

[Smad]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Barring a stunningly surprising turn of events from now til 15x20, and with a very few exceptions from 11x23 to date, that's where the series ends for me. Those few episodes I truly enjoyed, like Regarding Dean and Scooby-Doo and Nihilism, I'll consider one-offs.

For me it ends just before the ending of 11x23. Take out the return of Mary and the BMoL chick being in it at all. Dean watching the primordial beings leaving the Earth and leaving it alone was actually kind of great. And for once the brothers saved the world not by dying bloody or beating a big bad but with what the show is about....family. Then you can take Chuck's and Amara's statements as ominous or vague and think whatever you want happens next. Chuck calling Sam and Dean the protectors of Earth and Amara giving Dean something. Make of that what you will.

Sure some people would complain that it's open ended but what's wrong with the viewer imagining what it was that Light/Dark meant. The freaking multi-verse got saved. Doesn't get bigger than that.

Them re-doing the saving of the multi-verse this Season by throwing everything/everyone under the bus is just a cheap and nonsensical imitation of S11. And we already know that with the writers and showrunners this show has now, the end will suck. They are the D&D (Game of Thrones showrunners) of this show.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Smad said:

For me it ends just before the ending of 11x23. Take out the return of Mary and the BMoL chick being in it at all. Dean watching the primordial beings leaving the Earth and leaving it alone was actually kind of great. And for once the brothers saved the world not by dying bloody or beating a big bad but with what the show is about....family. Then you can take Chuck's and Amara's statements as ominous or vague and think whatever you want happens next. Chuck calling Sam and Dean the protectors of Earth and Amara giving Dean something. Make of that what you will.

Sure some people would complain that it's open ended but what's wrong with the viewer imagining what it was that Light/Dark meant. The freaking multi-verse got saved. Doesn't get bigger than that.

Them re-doing the saving of the multi-verse this Season by throwing everything/everyone under the bus is just a cheap and nonsensical imitation of S11. And we already know that with the writers and showrunners this show has now, the end will suck. They are the D&D (Game of Thrones showrunners) of this show.

Yes, i should have specified it ending before Mary or Sam getting shot. I would have been okay with it ending there. 

[juppschmitz]

13 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Even in Season 15 they have her literally stating to him that even on his best day, he couldn`t force her hand in anything. And he doesn`t refute that. She was never part of his story, meaning the Amara parts of Season 11 weren`t Chuck`s writing. She actually did almost kill him, she actually did like Dean, she actually did change her mind at the end. That`s why the Season 11 Finale, despite it being so shoddily written, can work as a Series Finale. 

To me it was the series finale. I refuse to acknowledge any of Dabb's crap as part of actual Supernatural. All that Dabb's four seasons are is lessons in how NOT to do it.

[ILoveReading]

My guess is that this was cut because the writers don't want to remind the audience that Dean is graceful and athletic inbetween the old man jokes. 

Spoiler

I see they are also continuing the whatever happens to Dean must happen to Sam tenfold next week. Dean was tortured with papercuts this ep so Sam has to have his arm broken next week.  But Dean won't come out of now where to save Sam, Sam will use magic to take out the witches.

[Bobcatkitten]

Where did that picture come from? It wasn't in the episode. 

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

My guess is that this was cut because the writers don't want to remind the audience that Dean is graceful and athletic inbetween the old man jokes. 

  Hide contents

I see they are also continuing the whatever happens to Dean must happen to Sam tenfold next week. Dean was tortured with papercuts this ep so Sam has to have his arm broken next week.  But Dean won't come out of now where to save Sam, Sam will use magic to take out the witches.

Singer thinks Dean is nothing but brawn so that's what Eugenie thinks.

Criminal to cut that take... and stupid.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/13/2019 at 3:36 AM, juppschmitz said:

To me it was the series finale. I refuse to acknowledge any of Dabb's crap as part of actual Supernatural. All that Dabb's four seasons are is lessons in how NOT to do it.

Dean also decided the ending. He chose not to activate the bomb. He chose to reason with her. It obviously was not the ending Chuck wrote. Metatron was so horrified by Chuck's ending that he willingly sacrificed himself to avert it. It certainly was not Dean arranging Kumbaya for Chuck and Amara.

And I agree. Amara is the key. She is omder and more powerful, especially now.

They need to lock Chuck up. Will she be game?

I don't think he can be trusted enough to talk down. He is angry and duplicitous. It's different from her anger. She was lashing out because she had been locked up for eons, backstabbed, ignored, and she wanted to be heard.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/10/2019 at 9:06 PM, catrox14 said:

Or there is something coming with Sam and demon Blood and he envisioned Benny because of the consternation Dean's relationship caused Sam.  I still maintain that Sam was flat out jealous of Benny and I can see him having Benny be with Dean in his dream and Demon Blood Sam killing both of them would seem apt.

Yep. I mean that is what Chuck was going for.

But Sam was totally jealous of Benny.

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/11/2019 at 7:09 PM, Katy M said:

Dean basically said two episodes ago that they don't worry about repercussions.  They just deal with them.  And I find that to be a pretty accurate statement.

1. Sam didn't seem to worry about what drinking demon blood would do to him other than allow him to kill Lillith. Anyone with half a brain would know that wasn't a good idea.

2. Dean didn't worry about anything that might go wrong making a deal with Death to bring Sam's soul back.

3.  Neither one of them considered that maybe shutting the gates of Hell might not be a good idea as it might trap hellbound spirits on earth.

4. Dean didn't worry that letting Zeke into Sam might mean not being able to get him out later.

5. Cain told Dean straight up that there would be consequences or a price to taking the mark.  Dean was like, its all good, gimme.

6. Sam knew there would be another curse placed if he used the Book to remove the Mark of Cain from Dean. He said, it's all good, gimme.

7.  Sam (and Dean also really)  didn't stop to think, or maybe just care, that working with pscyhos like the BMOLs might come back to bite them in the butt.

8.  They didn't worry about what all their interdimensional frequent flyer miles might do.

9.  Dean didn't worry about the flip side of getting MIchael out, and I don't want to hear about how he thought he had a deal.  Even I'm not that naïve.

10. LIly Sunder put a warning label on her soul thing to bring Jack back.  Another, I don't care, gimme.

That'll do for now.   

2. There was a wall in Sam's head that was holding until Cas willfully fore it down.

4. Dean got a reference on Zeje from Cas and Sam would have imminently died without Zeke's interventions. Zeje would have honored their deal except that he was corrupted by Metatron.

5. Dean was pretty much suicidal at that point and assumed that the consequences would be bad for him. It was dumb.

6. Sam's decision was much worse. Dean told him that there would be biblical scale  repercussions if the book was used to remove the MoC. Sam did not care.

7. Dean did care about working with the BMOL. He was doing it to look out for his family since both Mary and Sam were already doing it behind his back. 

8. Dean was warned. It's kind of on him imo.

9. If Sam went dark in season 10 to save Dean then Dean goes dark in season 13 to save Mary and Sam (and Jack). Saying yes to Michael is the worse mistake he has ever made imo. Or it should have been if the writing in a 14 carried the storyline.

10. Eh... The problem was not Jack losing his soul as much as it was Jack suvking in Michael's grace and powering up which should not have worked. The spell was a dud and he died. Why did it work. He had no juice at all.

[catrox14]

13 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Where did that picture come from? It wasn't in the episode. 

It was in the KSite additional set photos.

[PAForrest]

I've seen some comments on twitter and in the episode thread that when Lilith looked at Dean and said Chuckles had a pervy obsession with him, that she was referring just to Dean and not to both Winchesters, as I assumed.

I always thought Yockey had a little fondness for Dean, but I'll be honest and admit I was never quite sure with this guy. And then I gave up on believing he had any interest in Dean when he completely trashed everything he wrote in Nihilism with the follow up episode where all the set-up for Dean went bye-bye and the Michael s/l was hand-delivered on a silver platter to both Rowena and Jackie Sue instead, while Dean was drop-kicked to the curb.

But whose decision was that - Yockey's, or was he told to write it that way by Dabb and Berens? We'll probably never know.

Maybe after having crapped on the importance he set up for Dean in Nihilism, Yockey felt guilty and this was his parting nod to Dean, saying he believes the character is significant even if no one else does. Obviously nothing will come of this, but I'd love to know what Yockey was thinking with this episode.

Of course, he also still included Sam mocking Dean in the beginning, and the tired gaslighting joke about Dean's looks and age; so again I really don't know what to think about Yockey's feelings for the character of Dean. Obviously Yockey was never as cut and dried as most of the other writers.

Edited November 17, 2019 by PAForrest

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Of course, he also still included Sam mocking Dean in the beginning, and the tired gaslighting joke about Dean's looks and age; so again I really don't know what to think about Yockey's feelings for the character of Dean. Obviously Yockey was never as cut and dried as most of the other writers.

I wouldn't be surprised if Yockey only wrote the story elements for the hunt and the Lilith stuff and Berens/Perez finished the character bits because those dumb old jokes are right up there with his other eps that mock Dean.

[ahrtee]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Yockey only wrote the story elements for the hunt and the Lilith stuff and Berens/Perez finished the character bits because those dumb old jokes are right up there with his other eps that mock Dean.

Because they had to fit in the "Dean is stupid/uncouth/old" jokes instead of showing him as competent and dangerous (as in cutting out the scene of him jumping off the balcony?)

[PAForrest]

53 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Yockey only wrote the story elements for the hunt and the Lilith stuff and Berens/Perez finished the character bits because those dumb old jokes are right up there with his other eps that mock Dean.

That's entirely possible. After all, Yockey probably dropped off his script as he was sprinting out the door and never looked back to see what they were doing with it. And that kind of Dean bashing doesn't seem to be Yockey's style - at least, not from what I can recall. So that could easily explain the discrepancy.

44 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Because they had to fit in the "Dean is stupid/uncouth/old" jokes instead of showing him as competent and dangerous (as in cutting out the scene of him jumping off the balcony?)

I think I agree with whoever said it was probably cut out precisely because it was an antethesis to the age/looks gaslighting shtick. Even though the scene was of Demon Dean, it still shows that the guy playing Dean is agile and athletic, and gosh darn it, that don't compute with the Dean they're trying to sell who's a 100 year old troll living under a bridge.

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, PAForrest said:

I've seen some comments on twitter and in the episode thread that when Lilith looked at Dean and said Chuckles had a pervy obsession with him, that she was referring just to Dean and not to both Winchesters, as I assumed.

I always thought Yockey had a little fondness for Dean, but I'll be honest and admit I was never quite sure with this guy. And then I gave up on believing he had any interest in Dean when he completely trashed everything he wrote in Nihilism with the follow up episode where all the set-up for Dean went bye-bye and the Michael s/l was hand-delivered on a silver platter to both Rowena and Jackie Sue instead, while Dean was drop-kicked to the curb.

But whose decision was that - Yockey's, or was he told to write it that way by Dabb and Berens? We'll probably never know.

Maybe after having crapped on the importance he set up for Dean in Nihilism, Yockey felt guilty and this was his parting nod to Dean, saying he believes the character is significant even if no one else does. Obviously nothing will come of this, but I'd love to know what Yockey was thinking with this episode.

Of course, he also still included Sam mocking Dean in the beginning, and the tired gaslighting joke about Dean's looks and age; so again I really don't know what to think about Yockey's feelings for the character of Dean. Obviously Yockey was never as cut and dried as most of the other writers.

I heard Eugenie was nominally in charge last season because Dabb was moping over WS and she scrapped the Michael story because she forgot about it because she can't remember plotlines and only writes what she feels in the moment which makes sense because her episodes never fit with the mytharc in any season. They are always whiplash inducing in terms of character behavior. Just behind the scenes gossip from a drunken event that I heard second hand which I  believe. I won't say more.

It's not an exxcuse for what happened nor does it change the fact that it was heinous or excuse the fact that Singer's f'g wife should never have been working for the show and was probably the source of the toxic rumors that filter out... and do not get me started on the fact that Singer's appreciation of the characters has not evolved since Kripke's original concept which is unforgivable... and yes the horrible writing and lack of continuity probably lead to Jensen et al.making their decision. 

And Dabb wasn't the best either but at least he could carry a plotline to its end. I hated whatever happened to MS and obviously there are issues with him too given body language, etc. at comic con panel and interviews... stuff happened. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, PAForrest said:

that don't compute with the Dean they're trying to sell who's a 100 year old troll living under a bridge.

Who chews with his mouth open and doesn't know about spicy food.  

[Castiels Cat]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Who chews with his mouth open and doesn't know about spicy food.  

Do you think they are mad he pulled the plug.

[Aeryn13]

15 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Do you think they are mad he pulled the plug.

Yes. A good bit of that is payback. I truly believe that. 

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yes. A good bit of that is payback. I truly believe that. 

If that is true, it would be pretty ironic. Because I believe they wrote themselves right out of a job. No one will convince me otherwise.

[BlueSapphire]

7 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Do you think they are mad he pulled the plug.

Regardless of who or what instigated the show-ending announcement, Jensen is never going to say he alone did it.  And I don’t believe it was just his decision.  Jared and Jensen have always pretty much been on the same page since day one.

[Castiels Cat]

15 hours ago, BlueSapphire said:

Regardless of who or what instigated the show-ending announcement, Jensen is never going to say he alone did it.  And I don’t believe it was just his decision.  Jared and Jensen have always pretty much been on the same page since day one.

It's common knowledge that Jensen has been up for major roles and his career has been thwarted for years by his show contract. His character's storylines are repeatedly aborted, most grievously in season 14. He has been letting things slip at con appearances since the announcement that betray his unhappiness with the writing. If was framed as a group decision... yes.

[Ria]

21 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

It's common knowledge that Jensen has been up for major roles and his career has been thwarted for years by his show contract. His character's storylines are repeatedly aborted, most grievously in season 14. He has been letting things slip at con appearances since the announcement that betray his unhappiness with the writing. If was framed as a group decision... yes.

I’m not buying his career has been thwarted or he’s lost out on many major roles. He kept signing on when he easily could have made other choices. If he were in any demand, he would have left long ago. 

[Katy M]

23 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

It's common knowledge that Jensen has been up for major roles and his career has been thwarted for years by his show contract. His character's storylines are repeatedly aborted, most grievously in season 14. He has been letting things slip at con appearances since the announcement that betray his unhappiness with the writing. If was framed as a group decision... yes.

Well, if he's been so miserable he didn't have to keep signing new contracts.  That's the decision he decided to make and there are probably other people in the world that need pity more than JA.  He's leaving now (at the end of the season), and hopefully he'll be happier instead of the miserable soul that everyone on this board assumes him to be.

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Well, if he's been so miserable he didn't have to keep signing new contracts.  That's the decision he decided to make and there are probably other people in the world that need pity more than JA.  He's leaving now (at the end of the season), and hopefully he'll be happier instead of the miserable soul that everyone on this board assumes him to be.

I don`t actually think he is miserable. I think he hasn`t been a fan of the writing and last Season was likely the final straw - he WAS excited for the Michael storyline so that probably was a dump of cold water. But unlike the viewer who just has watching the show, the actor has other things, work can also be fun. I think he genuinely likes the set and the people he works with so that in itself is a perk for him that no viewer has. 

So many times I see interviews where actors name some episodes as their favourites that I think are meh or awful but for them they are favourites because they got to work with a good friend as a guest star or got to do x stunt or got to do whatever that doesn`t translate for the audience. 

Not to mention, he gets paid a good amount of money for it. If I got that money for watching, I would probably be at least a bit happier, too.

Would I wanted him to stop signing on much earlier than now? Hell yes. But I can understand not doing so. I do think he could have had other opportunities but it is on him for not pursuing them. Other actors successfully left TV show roles for a bigger career while most do not.    

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t actually think he is miserable. I think he hasn`t been a fan of the writing and last Season was likely the final straw - he WAS excited for the Michael storyline so that probably was a dump of cold water. But unlike the viewer who just has watching the show, the actor has other things, work can also be fun. I think he genuinely likes the set and the people he works with so that in itself is a perk for him that no viewer has. 

So many times I see interviews where actors name some episodes as their favourites that I think are meh or awful but for them they are favourites because they got to work with a good friend as a guest star or got to do x stunt or got to do whatever that doesn`t translate for the audience. 

Not to mention, he gets paid a good amount of money for it. If I got that money for watching, I would probably be at least a bit happier, too.

Would I wanted him to stop signing on much earlier than now? Hell yes. But I can understand not doing so. I do think he could have had other opportunities but it is on him for not pursuing them. Other actors successfully left TV show roles for a bigger career while most do not.    

I think he felt a responsibility to the show and the family they had built and were dependent on it for employment. It took that proverbial last straw... and a 14 surely provided it. Treating a lead like that... even if the excuse was being scatterbrained or incompetent is inexcusable. And if the ongoing problem with the writing was the fact Singer hired his wife and no one could rein her in because she was the boss' wife... and I am leaning towards this because her episodes were tone deaf and whiplash inducing and good experienced writers just kept leaving... Obviously there was a problem with the writing. Why else did Jensen say he wanted to bring old writers back for the last season or he wanted J2 to sit in on writers meetings...And now he is talking about a reboot or movie... My guess is with a totally different producing and writing team to salvage things. I doubt it's sudden nostalgia.  He is being subtle and diplomatic and speaking volumes.

And what... the writers give us a season of bad writing by Chuck the writer of Supernatural to torment Dean and Sam but especially Dean because Chuck is focused on him. It's meta. Of course Jensen complained about the quality of the writing and Dabbler and Hacks are passive aggressive as fck.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[gonzosgirrl]

Hyperbole serves no one.  I believe Jensen was happy enough to stay in a secure job in a highly insecure industry.

As late as the 300th party, Jensen et al were saying that they could go on indefinitely if there was story to tell and the writing was strong (paraphrased of course, but that was absolutely the sentiment I understood). Not very long after that, the plug was pulled.

Dean/Jensen got screwed out of a storyline years in the making. It wasn't the first time that seemingly promising storylines got cut short/were underwritten. I'm sure there was discussion amongst the three of them before any final decision was made, but nobody will ever convince me it wasn't at Jensen's instigation.