“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

bethy · February 9, 2020

IMO, if the Js wanted a reduced workload, they should have reduced the number of episodes. Go for a tight 10-13 episode season, and stay focused on the main characters.

ILoveReading · February 9, 2020

7 minutes ago, ukgirl71 said:

Genuinely curious - what ways do you all think the show could have successfully juggled J2’s reduced schedule without bringing in Jack?

I think they could have done so much more with Mary. They had an interesting scenario with her coming back to grown sons she didn't know. Dean only having vague memories of the perfect mom.

But as usual they didn't know what to do with this and Mary came across as very selfish and uncaring. I truly believe even if she hadn' died she would have left eventually.

I would have liked to see her get to know her sons again. Its a great opportunity to dive into the Winchester past. Like why not write and ep where we see her trip to Lawrence. She could meet some hunters who knew John and get a real sense of what life was like for Sam and Dean growing up.

They could give Cas more of a story line about trying to fix heaven and figure out how to keep the lights on.

They could have delved more into history of the bunker and he Men of Letters or hunting. We could have had some flashback eps with Pastor Jim, or Caleb or Joshua. People Sam and Dean haven mentioned. Lets see a flashback to John's first hunt. I would have been more than okay with Matt Cohen playing him.

They could have given Crowley more to do. Make Rowena a regular.

Did more with the AU and the AU hunters. Make a couple of them recurring and give them a personality. I thought it would be cool if some of them saw Dean as a threat and they were gashlighting him.

I also thought a cool storyline for the final season would be a human big bad. (sort of.). In the form of a reporter. Sam and Dean have died and come back to life so many times, maybe someone wanted to find the real story and everywhere they go they see this person.

They could have bought in former guest stars of the people the boys saved and we could see what happened to them. Like what happened to Michael after the Striga. Making it both poignant and meaningful instead of just forced like it feels now.

TL/DR: The show has such a rich history of characters and storylines any one of them could have been explored rather than bringing a character to just do a poor retelling of Sam's story.

Just now, bethy said:

IMO, if the Js wanted a reduced workload, they should have reduced the number of episodes. Go for a tight 10-13 episode season, and stay focused on the main characters.

Jensen talked about this. He said they had to find a balance between what Jensen and Jared wanted and how many eps the network needed to make it feasible economically.

Casseiopeia · February 9, 2020

2 minutes ago, bethy said:

IMO, if the Js wanted a reduced workload, they should have reduced the number of episodes. Go for a tight 10-13 episode season, and stay focused on the main characters.

They wanted to. The network said no. The best they could do was shave off 3 episodes. Apparently that's when the J's decided to walk.

Edited February 9, 2020 by Casseiopeia

Aeryn13 · February 9, 2020

9 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

They wanted to. The network said no. The best they could do was shave off 3 episodes. Apparently that's when the J's decided to walk.

In that case they should have at least tried to go for a 13 ep final Season. Arrow had a 10 episodes final Season and the shortened episode count did wonders. This 20 episodes final Season is already a shambles. Maybe if the writers only had 10 eps, they would have been forced to cut some of the "comedic" bullshit like episode 10. And its lame follow-up.

They also could have saved on the budget by not bringing Jack back at all.

ILoveReading · February 9, 2020

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

In that case they should have at least tried to go for a 13 ep final Season. Arrow had a 10 episodes final Season and the shortened episode count did wonders. This 20 episodes final Season is already a shambles. Maybe if the writers only had 10 eps, they would have been forced to cut some of the "comedic" bullshit like episode 10. And its lame follow-up.

They also could have saved on the budget by not bringing Jack back at all.

They probably had a 2 year contract in place for s 14 and 15. It sounds like the network was trying to negociate 16 and 17 when they pulled the plug.

Aeryn13 · February 9, 2020

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

They probably had a 2 year contract in place for s 14 and 15. It sounds like the network was trying to negociate 16 and 17 when they pulled the plug.

Yeah, well, I think they are terrible re-negotiators. And it was the fourth or fifth time? Sure, they got more money - which is a duh in re-upping a contract - and concessions to time off. After being screwed over multiple times, I would not have signed on for even 14 and 15 with some concessions toward quality control and veto-ing rights. The studio and the network were interested enough, I think they would have given it.

Of course I mainly think the studio/network itself should have gotten involved with quality control. The longest-running genre show ever (not running through different incarnations like Doctor Who) and hey, let it go out on a pitiable whimper that destroys its re-watch value in syndication and sales value of complete sets physical media. That sounds like a great idea.

Peter Roth, the WB guy, I know he likes the Js and likes the show and I do know he has given notes on other shows but lets leave SPN to the mercy of the winged monkeys. Urgh.

I hope everyone really enjoys it when they get their own Game of Thrones Finale reaction and go "buzzuh?"

Edited February 9, 2020 by Aeryn13

ukgirl71 · February 9, 2020

ILoveReading - YES to all your ideas - why couldn’t we have shapeshifted you into Dabb’s place 😃 Can I add an earlier idea of mine to your list - Dylan and Colin for some pre-series hunts, either on their own or with Matt Cohen.

PAForrest · February 9, 2020

29 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yeah, well, I think they are terrible re-negotiators. And it was the fourth or fifth time? Sure, they got more money - which is a duh in re-upping a contract - and concessions to time off. After being screwed over multiple times, I would not have signed on for even 14 and 15 with some concessions toward quality control and veto-ing rights. The studio and the network were interested enough, I think they would have given it.

Of course I mainly think the studio/network itself should have gotten involved with quality control. The longest-running genre show ever (not running through different incarnations like Doctor Who) and hey, let it go out on a pitiable whimper that destroys its re-watch value in syndication and sales value of complete sets physical media. That sounds like a great idea.

Peter Roth, the WB guy, I know he likes the Js and likes the show and I do know he has given notes on other shows but lets leave SPN to the mercy of the winged monkeys. Urgh.

I hope everyone really enjoys it when they get their own Game of Thrones Finale reaction and go "buzzuh?"

I agree, the Js are sincerely and sadly some of the world's worst renegotiators in the entire industry. I mean, more money - so what? Literally everyone gets more money when they renegotiate. More time off, sure, that's an easy get too. But the production side of things other actors get that these guys have never gotten, never asked for?, is mind-boggling. If they had, we may not be in the "limp to the end" whimper we are now. And Jensen specifically wouldn't have been targeted constantly for a massive screwing over year in and year out. It's honestly astonishing that the show lasted on the air this long since any other actor in Jensen's shoes would have walked long ago - and if Jensen walked, the show would have folded too.

As for Roth, he's not with the WB anymore - he left or was canned like a year or more ago. But with or without him, why has the studio or the network not stepped in and noted the hell out of this show? Especially Pedowitz who loves the guys, loves the show, is NOT happy it's ending, and clearly blames the current monkeys in charge seeing as he was not remotely interested in staying in business with them?

If anyone gets up the guts to publish that tell-all book one day, it's going to be eye-opening - like Clockwork Orange eye-opening.

Aeryn13 · February 9, 2020

18 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I agree, the Js are sincerely and sadly some of the world's worst renegotiators in the entire industry. I mean, more money - so what? Literally everyone gets more money when they renegotiate. More time off, sure, that's an easy get too. But the production side of things other actors get that these guys have never gotten, never asked for?, is mind-boggling. If they had, we may not be in the "limp to the end" whimper we are now. And Jensen specifically wouldn't have been targeted constantly for a massive screwing over year in and year out. It's honestly astonishing that the show lasted on the air this long since any other actor in Jensen's shoes would have walked long ago - and if Jensen walked, the show would have folded too.

As for Roth, he's not with the WB anymore - he left or was canned like a year or more ago. But with or without him, why has the studio or the network not stepped in and noted the hell out of this show? Especially Pedowitz who loves the guys, loves the show, is NOT happy it's ending, and clearly blames the current monkeys in charge seeing as he was not remotely interested in staying in business with them?

If anyone gets up the guts to publish that tell-all book one day, it's going to be eye-opening - like Clockwork Orange eye-opening.

Didn`t know about Roth but he seems to be gone from his previous position since at least last year but appears to remain on as a higher-up of Warner Bros with creative input still. At least he always seemed to respect Jensen very much. Well, I guess the new CEO of Warner Bros Television just doesn`t much care about a dinosaur like SPN. Though on legacy factor alone - again, longest running genre show - should have gotten it in shape.

Also agreed on Jensen. He had power in re-upping, he should have used it and been way less nice. Now his character is the entire writers room`s favourite pinata.

Edited February 9, 2020 by Aeryn13

passatoepresente · February 9, 2020

On 2/7/2020 at 6:28 PM, Lemuria said:

So, it wasn't a sacrifice, it was reparations. It was cleaning up his mess. It was something that Sam owed the world.

Just MO. YMMV.

And what about Dean? He owes nothing to the world? He broke the first seal, without that event nothing would have happened and Ruby would have had no reason to fool Sam (and supernatural would be over)

Aeryn13 · February 9, 2020

3 minutes ago, passatoepresente said:

And what about Dean? He owes nothing to the world? He broke the first seal, without that event nothing would have happened and Ruby would have had no reason to fool Sam (and supernatural would be over)

His big mistake was making the deal. He paid for that by going to hell. The seal-breaking, he was gruesomely tortured into. Alistair didn"t ego-stroke him into doing it.

That said, I would have been overjoyed if Dean had gotten a role in 5.22 and had gone to the cage as well. Narratively, that was a big heroic reward for Sam. One IMO Dean would have been owed also.

However, as we learned, it was all Chuck anyway. For either one. So Chuck brought danger to the worls and Chuck saved it. Neither brother did bubkis. They are fictional characters even in their own fictuonal world. That is the way of Dabbernatural now.

.

Casseiopeia · February 9, 2020

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

In that case they should have at least tried to go for a 13 ep final Season. Arrow had a 10 episodes final Season and the shortened episode count did wonders. This 20 episodes final Season is already a shambles. Maybe if the writers only had 10 eps, they would have been forced to cut some of the "comedic" bullshit like episode 10. And its lame follow-up.

They also could have saved on the budget by not bringing Jack back at all.

I agree. After Jared did the GG's reunion show he was really on board to go for 6-8 episode seasons. He and Jensen thought then they could go on with the show indefinitely. The J's talked about it a few times at conventions a few years ago. But the CW/WB would only agree to reducing the season to 20.

7kstar · February 9, 2020

25 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

He and Jensen thought then they could go on with the show indefinitely. The J's talked about it a few times at conventions a few years ago.

Usually they would start with SP ends and then to the audience reactions, add it could go on forever. Personally I think they were trying to prepare the audience that SP would end.

You can know you have a stopping point and not talk about it. I did on teaching. Although I was telling my students I was thinking ahead to what would I like to do next and add on ten years later, I really was counting down. 3,2,1.

They also had a goal to get to 300 eps. Now the writing for 12 & 13, might not have seem too bad for them. They might have truly believed that they wouldn't be good doing the writing.

Hopefully, they have learned something. But I honestly don't know if anyone could have saved Supernatural from Dabb & Jack story.

I can't really recall, but I got the feeling that Dabb says one thing and does another. So if Dabb doesn't stick to what he is selling, how can you negotiate that? I don't know what perks the J's got, but I would think they got the things that were the most important for them at the time. I may not agree with them, but I really don't know them and they were the ones that had to live with it.

Edited February 9, 2020 by 7kstar

FlickChick · February 9, 2020

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

However, as we learned, it was all Chuck anyway. For either one. So Chuck brought danger to the worls and Chuck saved it. Neither brother did bubkis. They are fictional characters even in their own fictuonal world. That is the way of Dabbernatural now.

I might be extremely naive, but I don't believe this; I simply refuse to do so. I think before the season ends, that we're going to find out that Chuck as God is some big hoax. That he hasn't controlled everything they've done; that they have had TFW and influenced and lived their own lives. Until the curtain falls, that's what I'm choosing to believe until or unless it's proven otherwise definitively.

Edited February 9, 2020 by FlickChick

Harleycat · February 9, 2020

5 hours ago, ukgirl71 said:

Genuinely curious - what ways do you all think the show could have successfully juggled J2’s reduced schedule without bringing in Jack?

More focus on what they are hunting I suppose. Although that would mean having to give guest stars a lot more responsible. I think it was just easier to bring in a new recurring actor then depend on a revolving door of guest actors. Or a different storyline for Cas so he could take up some of the slack.

hypnotoad · February 10, 2020

Quote

I would have liked to see her get to know her sons again. Its a great opportunity to dive into the Winchester past. Like why not write and ep where we see her trip to Lawrence. She could meet some hunters who knew John and get a real sense of what life was like for Sam and Dean growing up.

Yes. The writers bring Mary back and then do basically nothing with her - especially when it came to Sam and Dean. It would have been very easy to let Mary take an episode or two and do those things you listed. It would have taken some time off for J2 and let the audience and Mary learn more about what happened after she died the first time.

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After Jared did the GG's reunion show he was really on board to go for 6-8 episode seasons.

I like the idea of fewer episodes a season but 6-8 seems very unrealistic for a US network show. Lost was doing 16 or so episodes the last couple of seasons - that would seem more realistic and do-able. Less filler type episodes too.

Harleycat · February 10, 2020

13 minutes ago, hypnotoad said:

Yes. The writers bring Mary back and then do basically nothing with her - especially when it came to Sam and Dean. It would have been very easy to let Mary take an episode or two and do those things you listed. It would have taken some time off for J2 and let the audience and Mary learn more about what happened after she died the first time.

I think the writers are so worried about offending people that they forget that their purpose is to tell a story. They didn't know what to do with Mary because people would be offended by the show not showing strong enough women if she was caring towards her son's and people would also be offended if she was shown to be overwhelmed by the entire situation (which she had every right to be). So they did nothing and then got rid of the character.

hypnotoad · February 10, 2020

Quote

I think the writers are so worried about offending people that they forget that their purpose is to tell a story. They didn't know what to do with Mary because people would be offended by the show not showing strong enough women if she was caring towards her son's and people would also be offended if she was shown to be overwhelmed by the entire situation (which she had every right to be). So they did nothing and then got rid of the character.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Why would people be offended by Mary's story if she was caring towards her sons - how does that make her weak? I'm confused by this.

I am pretty confident there are tons of people on this very board who could write a more compelling Mary story right now. She could still be a hunter and care for her sons and be overwhelmed about being alive again after so much time.

Good writers could have done all of that very easily. Bad writers made her one dimensional and made her return unsatisfying and pointless. These people writing for this show are allegedly professionals.

But these professionals are too concerned with Jack,Jack,Jack rather than the Winchester's.

DeeDee79 · February 10, 2020

14 minutes ago, hypnotoad said:

I am pretty confident there are tons of people on this very board who could write a more compelling Mary story right now.

Agreed. I've read fanfic that fleshed out Mary's character better than Dabb and Co. ever did.

Harleycat · February 10, 2020

2 hours ago, hypnotoad said:

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Why would people be offended by Mary's story if she was caring towards her sons - how does that make her weak? I'm confused by this.

I don't think it makes her weak, but know there are trollers and haters on social media who do glob onto any perceived slight towards women, especially in male dominated shows like SPN. If Mary has been more maternal there would have been backlash about SPN feeling like a women's place is to be the caregiver.

It's the same with Eileen. We will never know anything about her besides that she is very independent because these hacks think it is the only social media friendly way for a woman to be presented.

passatoepresente · February 10, 2020

15 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

However, as we learned, it was all Chuck anyway. For either one. So Chuck brought danger to the worls and Chuck saved it. Neither brother did bubkis. They are fictional characters even in their own fictuonal world. That is the way of Dabbernatural now.

.

This is so sad. They make me hate the show that I loved so much.

Castiels Cat · February 11, 2020

On 2/8/2020 at 4:25 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not sure that I get your point here. While yes, the writers likely should have addressed the nurse, so fair point on that one, Sam himself didn't call himself a hero or say that he was being "redeemed" or making a sacrifice in season 5, so reparations was indeed what it was. Sam specifically said that he let Lucifer out, so he had to be the one to put him back in. That's reparations not anything else.

Of course, in my opinion, the fact that Sam caused all of those problems was partially bad luck or whatever you want to call it, because when Sam makes a mistake or a bad judgement call, generally really bad things happen. Ditto Castiel later on (not in season 4, since Castiel made all sorts of bad decisions with zero repercussions in season 4.) So that was partially the reason Sam had to make reparations.

On this show, the consequences don't always parallel the action. It's the luck of the draw - or the writers' whims - as to how bad the consequences are going to be.

That isn't what Sam did or said at all. The dialogue wasn't the best, but it didn't have Sam blame Dean for listening to Ruby. It even explicitly said otherwise. At the worst it suggested that Dean was a bit bossy... but so what? Older siblings are often a bit more bossy. So Sam is saying what many younger siblings are thinking. (And I'm saying this as an older sibling who was - oh, the horrors - sometimes bossy with my younger sister.)

I truly don't understand the huge emphasis put on this one episode (there were about 17 other episodes after this in the season that were different in tone and focus) or what the dialogue supposedly said that it actually didn't say.

If these were parallel storylines, then doesn't that mean that Dean was supposedly going dark also... and if so, then I think my original point still stands. (i.e. that maybe Jensen was playing Dean as more together than the writers wanted him to appear.)

And why was Sam supposedly so much more out of control than MoC Dean? Was Dean in control of himself when he made the decision to take on the mark of Cain? And if he was, then wasn't his decision just as much risking potential repercussions as Sam's?

As I see it, while taking on the mark of Cain, Dean was doing most of the same things you accuse Sam of doing - just a bit differently. Dean risked everyone and everything by taking on a power for which he had no idea what the consequences would be. He knew what Cain did with that power, because he was told, so he knew how dangerous it was. He knew the mark was a dark power that he got from a demon (how is that better than a dark spell?). He killed / sacrificed demons in order to be worthy of that dark power. He bargained with Cain to get it. He worked with Crowley - a demon - to get it. In my opinion, Dean was acting very recklessly when he agreed to take on the mark and making very questionable judgement calls.

And if Sam was supposedly partially responsible for Charlie's death, how was Dean not partially responsible for Tara the hunter's death? The main reason (maybe the only reason) Tara was killed - tortuously by having her skin peeled off - was because Crowley and Dean were talking about going to get the blade out in the open where other demons could hear. A demon then followed Dean and Crowley right to Tara after hearing that she knew something about the blade. Then Dean and Crowley had Tara uncover and break her demon trap and help them find where the blade (supposedly) was - by doing a spell... that required an ingredient gotten by a demon. I doubt that spell - since it found a dark power object - was entirely "good." And then demons came in and got Tara to torture her for information about the blade and kill her. Crowley knew the demons were following him, but Dean trusted him to work with.

Why is that any more excusable than what happened to Charlie? It actually seems like more of a direct cause and action to me than Charlie's death which could have been prevented if Charlie had just stayed under Castiel's protection.

Oh, and Despite finding out about Tara and how Crowley knew, Dean still told Crowley where the blade was, giving a demon access to a potentially powerful weapon.

It seems to me the stories had more parallels than not, and that both brothers exhibited reckless behavior and bad judgement that involved dark powers and contributed to someone getting killed. Your miles may vary.

Sam released an Apocalypse. Dean did not. Sam lied repeatedly. Dean did not. Dean recognized that he had lost control or was in danger of losing control when he was trying to protect Claire and when Rudy died. Dean was a demon yet Sam was the one that brokered a demon deal and corrupted a human soul.Sam never cared that anyone got hurt, almost died or died. That is how one tells which brother went dark and was out of control. AND SAM WAS THE ONE THAT SPENT SEASON 11 TALKING ABOUT HOW HE MESSED UP,, HOW HE NEEDED TO CHANGE HIS WAYS AND SAM APOLOGIZED FOR WRONGS HE HAD DONE AND MADE ANENDS TO MAKE UP FOR HIS BEHAVIOR. That's how you know.

Tara was not Dean's fault and neither was Rudy. And the men Dean killed in the pedo house were trying go kill him. Yet Dean felt tremendous remorse and guilt for what he had done. Sam felt neither of those things despite not being under the thrall of a powerful supernatural talisman. By the time Dean kills Styne the youngest he is without remorse. It is a sign of his anger, his grief, his vengeance and the Mark's greater hold. In his defense he found his home violated and his family missing having just buried a friend he loved like a sister who was killed by these monsters and having just escaped being vivisected by these monsters. Words are a pretty luxury and meaningless compared to that reality.

There is no comparison. Carver set out to write Sam watts and all without any supernatural whitewash and he deliberately recreated his dark arc to save Dean. He stripped it and laid it bare. It's not sexy without Ruby's seduction and sucking nurses bone dry and all of that hullabaloo. It's ugly because he does horrible things and shrugs and treats Dean like dirt. I really wish Crowley had just gone postal instead of being so cool about the assassination attempt.

AwesomO4000 · February 11, 2020

All my opinion coming up here, in case at some point I forget to stress it enough. Also Too Long: Didn't Read is in affect, so feel free to skip or see the bolded parts if you want.

18 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Sam released an Apocalypse. Dean did not.

I don't consider this justification or an explanation. Dean didn't have apocalyptic consequences, because the writers chose not to have his indiscretions have the same kind of consequences as Sam's. This was highlighted with a big crescendo when Sam's actions released the Darkness while Dean killing Death - arguably a potentially huge, reckless act which came about because Dean called Death to fix a problem he [Dean] created through more reckless actions - had no consequences.

For me, that's like saying a bad act is only bad if you get caught and punished for it.

Quote

Sam lied repeatedly. Dean did not.

Dean lied repeatedly in season 9... and he still turned out to be right. And apparently he was justified in doing so. At least if you look at the consequences of the narrative that is, because good thing he lied so Gadreel could stay in Sam so that Gadreel could save Castiel and Sam and Charlie and help save the whole world. But it was still lying, and it was only "okay," because the writers chose to make it okay for Dean to lie rather than there be bad consequences for him doing so. And Dean feeling badly because Sam was angry doesn't count as consequences, in my opinion.

In my opinion, if Sam had done that to Dean (all the lying), the narrative would have skewered him for it and made Gadreel the worst thing to happen to the world ever. But it was Dean, so it was okay, and Gadreel was made to be good instead.

18 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean was a demon yet Sam was the one that brokered a demon deal and corrupted a human soul.Sam never cared that anyone got hurt, almost died or died. That is how one tells which brother went dark and was out of control.

Dean wasn't a demon when he made the deal with Cain (who is also a demon.) He wasn't even influenced by the mark yet. And Dean didn't care enough about Tara's death to question Crowley enough not to have him go get a potentially powerful weapon... I mean sure Crowley didn't have the mark, but he knew how to find Cain. What was to stop him from getting the blade and finding another demon to have Cain transfer the mark to and then use as his weapon?

That Crowley didn't... that he thought that he could corrupt Dean and get Dean to turn into the partner he wanted tells me that he thought Dean was corruptible even then. Even before Dean had any demon influence. So Crowley saw the potential darkness in Dean to exploit, and Dean stepped right up to the plate and swung for the fences by taking the mark, no questions asked and no qualms about doing so.

And Sam did feel badly that Lester got corrupted. He tried to stop it even as it was happening. If Sam didn't care at all, he wouldn't have bothered trying to stop it in my opinion. Doesn't make it good behavior, but it also doesn't mean there was no guilt or remorse at all.

18 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Tara was not Dean's fault and neither was Rudy. And the men Dean killed in the pedo house were trying go kill him. Yet Dean felt tremendous remorse and guilt for what he had done. Sam felt neither of those things despite not being under the thrall of a powerful supernatural talisman.

If Sam is supposedly partially responsible for Charlie, why wasn't Tara's death partially on Dean? Dean got her involved in dark, risky dealings which directly lead to her gruesome death. And I didn't see all that much guilt for Tara from Dean. Dean found out that Crowley knew they were being followed, and he [Crowley] just let Tara be killed... yet Dean still worked with Crowley - after a token punch - in that he sent Crowley to get the First Blade for him. He chose to listen to Crowley and let Tara be "broken eggs" to make the "omelet" (per Crowley).

And as I said above, Sam did feel guilt for Lester. We saw that with the flashbacks.

18 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Carver set out to write Sam watts and all without any supernatural whitewash and he deliberately recreated his dark arc to save Dean. He stripped it and laid it bare.

And yet Carver gave Dean all of the same supernatural whitewash with little of the consequences. Most of the consequences - except the personal ones - were conveniently shifted over to Sam.

I've seen people complain that Sam's dark powers were justified by the season 5 finale, but the season 9 final episodes weren't much different. Dean's dark powers were used to successfully defeat Abaddon and then helped him to keep Metatron occupied long enough to have his powers removed.

18 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

AND SAM WAS THE ONE THAT SPENT SEASON 11 TALKING ABOUT HOW HE MESSED UP,, HOW HE NEEDED TO CHANGE HIS WAYS AND SAM APOLOGIZED FOR WRONGS HE HAD DONE AND MADE ANENDS TO MAKE UP FOR HIS BEHAVIOR. That's how you know.

So: what? Because Dean lied and did reckless, dangerous things and took on dark powers recklessly, but didn't apologize it was okay?

That's exactly the double-standard I'm talking about.

I get that that was Sam's arc. I get that Sam was written to go dark and apologize. My point the entire time has been that Dean went dark also. Just because the writers didn't acknowledge his questionable behavior as such - and there was quite a bit of very questionable behavior - doesn't mean it wasn't there.

If Sam lying to Dean was so awful and bad, then in my opinion, Dean's weeks, maybe months of lying should also have been bad. If Sam messing with dark powers is bad, then Dean taking on dark powers and making deals and alliances with demons should also be bad.

Dean wasn't under the influence of anything when he used dark spells to find the First Blade. And when it lead him to Cain instead, Dean still made a deal with Cain rather than leaving, willingly making that bond with Cain and taking on those dark powers. He never asked about the consequences. Dean didn't care that the mark had eventually turned Cain into a killing machine. He did it anyway. And he wasn't remorseful about it. He thought that he was justified.

The writers had a chance to have Dean face consequences*** for those actions when Dean had to call Death to stop the dark forces that HE unleashed and then ended up killing Death instead... but the narrative instead decided to have Dean not face ANY consequences for that.

So apparently Dean didn't need to change his ways at all, since he never said that he was sorry for any of the lying he did in season 9 or for the pain it caused Sam. He never said he was sorry for taking on the mark of Cain (in fact the writers had Sam justify Dean's taking on the mark, instead) or the pain that caused Sam and others.

All of the things they had Sam do and then have to be remorseful for, they let Dean also do to varying degrees, complete with supernatural whitewashing for some of it, but in Dean's case there was no apologizing and little to any consequences. Instead Dean was pretty much justified in almost all of his questionable behavior.

And that's where the narrative loses some of its impact for me, because it then becomes unbalanced with one brother being "right" no matter what and the other being "wrong" no matter what. Which isn't the way the show used to be.

*** (Non-personal ones anyway. Dean did face personal consequences, because he became a demon.)

18 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

It's ugly because he does horrible things and shrugs and treats Dean like dirt. I really wish Crowley had just gone postal instead of being so cool about the assassination attempt.

Sam treated Dean like dirt?*** How about Dean's treating Sam badly? Sure the narrative entirely flipped the script and had Sam say horrible things ("The Purge") and entirely dropped the lying that Dean did and the effect they showed that had on Sam in the first half of season 9, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. It did happen. And if Dean had really felt guilty about it in terms of Sam - and not mainly focused on how guilty it made him feel - he would have apologized for lying to Sam. Instead Dean made excuses and said he had no choice and that he'd do it again. There was no remorse. And then Dean got a supernatural excuse to say all sorts of awful things to Sam.

As for Crowley, I still don't get why Crowley deserves any kind of consideration in season 10. Crowley had killed innocent people to try to influence Sam and Dean simply for his (Crowley's) own gain. He killed Sarah in front of Sam. He almost killed Jody. Then Crowley duplicitously helped to turn Dean into a demon. Sam had every reason and right to kill Crowley ten times over. That Sam would get a benefit from it was just icing on the cake.

Besides, Crowley didn't want Dean to potentially become a demon again any more than Sam did. If he'd gone postal on Sam, Sam wouldn't have been able to get the mark off of Dean - something Crowley very much wanted as well. So Crowley was willing to let Sam go so he could finish that. Crowley is going to choose practicality and personal gain over revenge almost every time. Crowley going postal on Sam for trying to kill him would have been out of character.

*** Though I'm not sure what you are referring to here exactly, but I'll go with it.

Edited February 11, 2020 by AwesomO4000
to add the TL:DR disclaimer and the bolded parts.

FierceCritter · February 11, 2020

I've seen more than one person bemoan the way SPN ended up all in God's world after Castiel joined the show. I love Castiel, and (she's saying it again) hate what they writers have done to him over the years. What people have said just made me think of how much better it would have been if instead of ending up in Castiel's world after that point, they'd have just let it be Castiel ending up in the Winchester's world.

Keep Castiel the badass, serious warrior angel he was when he first spread his wings in that barn. He could have even still been a regular, in some way always there but without ending up deus ex machina due to Divine origin. Play out the "God has plans for you" shtick in THAT season, and never bring up gee oh dee again for the most part. No more angel than they ever had demon (except Crowley - I never got enough of Crowley). Maybe in some way have Castiel still retain some angelic powers, but be cutoff from the Heavens, bemoaning his fate to walk the Earth, retaining his warrior badassery, but maybe just a small remainder of angelic powers such as healing and lesser teleportation. A new hunter joining the hunter ranks. Happy to help, not all "naked ape bah" resentful of being earthbound because that's been done to death. Save that for the occasional one-off bad angel showing up and Christopher Walken movies.

Dump the "let's have Cas become goofy, learning how to assimilate human this and that-ery" and instead of having him become more human, let him remain somewhat disconnected. Have him be more "There they go doing human stuff again, thank you, next, can we move on to the monster at hand." That would have been SUCH a great dynamic. And still have fodder for Destiel shippers to boot.

Geeze. Miss "doesn't really get into the what-ifs of TV shows" maybe should go back to lurker status and maybe try writing some fanfic.

DeeDee79 · February 11, 2020

58 minutes ago, FierceCritter said:

I've seen more than one person bemoan the way SPN ended up all in God's world after Castiel joined the show. I love Castiel, and (she's saying it again) hate what they writers have done to him over the years. What people have said just made me think of how much better it would have been if instead of ending up in Castiel's world after that point, they'd have just let it be Castiel ending up in the Winchester's world.

Keep Castiel the badass, serious warrior angel he was when he first spread his wings in that barn. He could have even still been a regular, in some way always there but without ending up deus ex machina due to Divine origin. Play out the "God has plans for you" shtick in THAT season, and never bring up gee oh dee again for the most part. No more angel than they ever had demon (except Crowley - I never got enough of Crowley). Maybe in some way have Castiel still retain some angelic powers, but be cutoff from the Heavens, bemoaning his fate to walk the Earth, retaining his warrior badassery, but maybe just a small remainder of angelic powers such as healing and lesser teleportation. A new hunter joining the hunter ranks. Happy to help, not all "naked ape bah" resentful of being earthbound because that's been done to death. Save that for the occasional one-off bad angel showing up and Christopher Walken movies.

Dump the "let's have Cas become goofy, learning how to assimilate human this and that-ery" and instead of having him become more human, let him remain somewhat disconnected. Have him be more "There they go doing human stuff again, thank you, next, can we move on to the monster at hand." That would have been SUCH a great dynamic. And still have fodder for Destiel shippers to boot.

Geeze. Miss "doesn't really get into the what-ifs of TV shows" maybe should go back to lurker status and maybe try writing some fanfic.

These are all great ideas. It's sad how the fans can put together better storylines and character motivations than the people that are actually being paid to write for this show.

Pondlass1 · February 11, 2020

Great post FierceCritter!

Things went sideways for me when they opened up heaven - well, I guess the North American version of heaven complete with business suits and utility issues (electric lights, duh!). I wish they'd never gone there. I wish they'd left heaven for audience imagination.

And have Castiel as the only angel walking the earth. His powers maybe diminishing the longer he remains on earth. Would've made more sense than confusing powers waxing and waning to fit plot and all that stupidity.

And I often wish they'd kept the same adversary running throughout the series from first season to last (At least we'd all know what the final episode would entail). Maybe a shadowy intimidating yellow-eyed demon....??? Dean and Sam never quite succeed in killing him/her at each season's end.

Anyway it's all coming to an end so what's the point of woulda, shoulda, coulda?

It's just so sad when gold is allowed to slip through fingers and waste away.

Bali · February 12, 2020

On 2/9/2020 at 12:47 PM, hypnotoad said:

I don't have an issue with Jack in general but the use of the character has been ridiculous. Look at last season (sorry I haven't started this season yet): Jack is sick, Jack is dead, Jack is back, Jack is the most powerful power in the universe. I mean nearly everything revolved around Jack.

J2's have a reduced schedule? Then why not an episode or 2 part episode focusing on Jody and Donna? Give Castiel something to do besides chase Jack around? There are ways to give J2 a reduced schedule and still leave them as the leads of the show.

And by focusing on Jody and Donna, we mean JODY AND DONNA- Not Jody's adopted kids! Heck- even Garth and some hunting. Mix it up a little. This show has some great acting on the bench. But it's in an episode or two at most. More MoTW could include the brothers rushing in last minute to save the day while the bench gets themselves in trouble. Heck- go for a two season arch starting in 6. Don't kill off Bobby so fast. A few more Bobby and Rufus flashbacks episodes. Intersperse more MoTW throughout the Leviathans with the big send off happening after two seasons, not one. A season 6 cliffhanger being finding out the nation is being run by them. More plotting. More plots and repercussions of the plotlines.

If Mary had to come back, then make her a remotely likeable character. Go back- watch the first five seasons. Remember Ellen, you were able to make her likeable. I'm sure you could have done that with Mary. Had she been likeable, she could have carried a few episodes on her own. We hated her because she was very hateable. Like extremely. Or if you're going to make her so awful at least let the Boys- or JODY tell her off. Pick a personality for her and stick to it! Don't worry if some people won't like it. It's so much better for 10% to hate her than 90% to hate her.

There are some great actors out there. Bring back the James Marston and Charisma Carpenter witches. Make them friends who help a few more episodes with them and then have to take them down as a Big Bad. I mean seriously how awesome would a confrontation between those two and Rowena have been?

No Heaven as an office- EVER! I could have handled a Hell as a corporate office. I mean Crowley did Hell is a never endling line. But seriously, most of us spend our days stuck in a gray office anxiously awaiting the moment when we've done our boring 8 hours. Now the show wants me to think that is the wonderful eternity I've been promised? Please just NO!

I could have handled one of the guys meeting an awesome female hunter and had her around for a while. But the pairings they gave me didn't do it for me. Sam and Becky? Sam and the married chick while Dean was in Purgatory? Just No. I did like Lisa. I liked her a lot. But she was too innocent to survive his world. They both should have an equal in the fight. I know Hollywood thinks that interesting relationships can't work on TV because once the tension is there, they don't know how to write it. That's just ridiculous because I know it's a TOTALLY different show- but did anyone ever root for Charles and Caroline Ingalls to divorce- or a little closer to home- Gomez and Morticia Addams? Give me a break. Married couples can still flirt, argue, and have great chemistry, and cut heads off vampires, ghouls and djinn. Think of the smoldering looks Dean could give a woman that kissed him, said, "That's right, babe," and then launched a grenade into a pack of evil human killing vamps. He nods and says, "'At's my girl." Or Sam gets all protective like he does, even though she can fight too. They spar a little, roll around a little.

gonzosgirrl · February 12, 2020

From the Media thread. It's All Episodes discussion, but I am 93% sure I'll veer into BvJ so...

9 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

I think Dean won‘t forgive soon. If it pisses off Cas - well, that’s Cas’ problem, not Dean’s. But Dean is professional enough to know that they all have the same enemy (Chuck), so they‘ll better work together to defeat him.

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean already forgave and admitted he was wrong, and couldn't figure out why he was angry in the first place. The show handled the whole thing so badly.

3 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

When did he say he forgave? I think I missed it somehow.

I don't think he verbally forgave Jack, but he did Cas. But he did the mea culpa over being angry about Jack/Cas/Mary so it amounts to the same thing.

But what I really came here to talk about is this tweet from the @cw_spn account. This choice of image. Of the three of them, Dean was clearly the least overjoyed at Jack's return, the only one showing even a modicum of suspicion, and yet this is the image they choose to post.

Without context, it looks like an emotional reunion. It sells the narrative they want to tell, even though it's not what actually played out, and for this viewer, it's far, far, far from the reaction I want/expect a character like Dean to have. It's almost gas-lighting.

NougatJack · February 12, 2020

Ah okay, you‘re talking about Dean forgiving Cas.... It‘s not the first time Dean forgives Cas really quick. He also forgave Cas for releasing the Leviathans -which led to the death of Bobby. The one who was like a father to Sam and Dean.

Regarding Jack, we have to wait and see, I think it‘s something they will adress soon. I think it will depend on whether he has his soul back or not. For Dean, the Jack with his soul and soulless Jack are two different people. One of them is the kid who is like a son to him, and the other is the monster who killed his mom. That‘s probably the reason why Dean touches Jack‘s neck and observes him precisely - to find out which Jack has come back.

gonzosgirrl · February 12, 2020

16 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

Ah okay, you‘re talking about Dean forgiving Cas....

No, I was responding to what I thought was a miscommunication in the other thread. It wasn't my post though, so I shouldn't have. @ILoveReading can speak for herself.

17 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

One of them is the kid who is like a son to him, and the other is the monster who killed his mom. That‘s probably the reason why Dean touches Jack‘s neck and observes him precisely - to find out which Jack has come back.

Firstly, this whole 'like a son' thing is pure nonsense to me. Maybe Castiel can be his surrogate Daddy, but he is not a Winchester, and I won't ever accept that Dean sees him as a son. Ever.

To the bolded, yes, that's precisely the point - he is questioning it, but that's not what that particular screen shot, without more context than "Jack is back" implies.

Katy M · February 12, 2020

18 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

irstly, this whole 'like a son' thing is pure nonsense to me. Maybe Castiel can be his surrogate Daddy, but he is not a Winchester, and I won't ever accept that Dean sees him as a son. Ever.

Me, neither. I do think it makes sense for Cas. He was with Kelly for the last part of her pregnancy and Kelly had him promise to look after him. Plus, Cas was never (after the Future) worried about him becoming evil, so I can handle Cas being his "dad." I can handle Sam feeling avuncular (I hardly ever get to use the word, so I'm going for it) towards him, even though I hard disagree with it. But, Dean has always been wary of Jack, and I think with good reason. And, therefore, even when they were close and workign together, I feel like there was always at least a little bit of distance that would prevent a father-son situation if for no other reason.

Harleycat · February 13, 2020

10 hours ago, Bali said:

I could have handled one of the guys meeting an awesome female hunter and had her around for a while. But the pairings they gave me didn't do it for me. Sam and Becky? Sam and the married chick while Dean was in Purgatory? Just No. I did like Lisa. I liked her a lot. But she was too innocent to survive his world. They both should have an equal in the fight. I know Hollywood thinks that interesting relationships can't work on TV because once the tension is there, they don't know how to write it. That's just ridiculous because I know it's a TOTALLY different show- but did anyone ever root for Charles and Caroline Ingalls to divorce- or a little closer to home- Gomez and Morticia Addams? Give me a break. Married couples can still flirt, argue, and have great chemistry, and cut heads off vampires, ghouls and djinn. Think of the smoldering looks Dean could give a woman that kissed him, said, "That's right, babe," and then launched a grenade into a pack of evil human killing vamps. He nods and says, "'At's my girl." Or Sam gets all protective like he does, even though she can fight too. They spar a little, roll around a little.

I've always liked that they were single, especially that Dean was single. I think it is pretty common for straight people to have families that aren't necessarily with a romantic partner or biological children. It isn't reflected on TV enough that not everyone has lives that revolve around a having a significant other.

But yes to the rest. There are all kinds of possibilities out there.

Castiels Cat · February 13, 2020

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

From the Media thread. It's All Episodes discussion, but I am 93% sure I'll veer into BvJ so...

I don't think he verbally forgave Jack, but he did Cas. But he did the mea culpa over being angry about Jack/Cas/Mary so it amounts to the same thing.

But what I really came here to talk about is this tweet from the @cw_spn account. This choice of image. Of the three of them, Dean was clearly the least overjoyed at Jack's return, the only one showing even a modicum of suspicion, and yet this is the image they choose to post.

Without context, it looks like an emotional reunion. It sells the narrative they want to tell, even though it's not what actually played out, and for this viewer, it's far, far, far from the reaction I want/expect a character like Dean to have. It's almost gas-lighting.

They did that because the emotional arc is with Dean. They set up the poignant father-son bonding with Dean. Dean was too grief stricken at his death bed to cope. Dean passed the hunting torch to Dean. Jack is the one to save Dean from Michael. Jack betrays Dean by killing his beloved Mary. Dean wants Vengeance. Chuck sets up his biblical tale of sacrifice. Jack kneels before Dean and offers himself and Dean refuses to kill the monster he once viewed as his son. Chuck cried out in anger and the Earth split open. Dean was pivotal. They had to use Dean.

Castiels Cat · February 13, 2020

On 2/11/2020 at 12:33 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

All my opinion coming up here, in case at some point I forget to stress it enough. Also Too Long: Didn't Read is in affect, so feel free to skip or see the bolded parts if you want.

I don't consider this justification or an explanation. Dean didn't have apocalyptic consequences, because the writers chose not to have his indiscretions have the same kind of consequences as Sam's. This was highlighted with a big crescendo when Sam's actions released the Darkness while Dean killing Death - arguably a potentially huge, reckless act which came about because Dean called Death to fix a problem he [Dean] created through more reckless actions - had no consequences.

For me, that's like saying a bad act is only bad if you get caught and punished for it.

Dean lied repeatedly in season 9... and he still turned out to be right. And apparently he was justified in doing so. At least if you look at the consequences of the narrative that is, because good thing he lied so Gadreel could stay in Sam so that Gadreel could save Castiel and Sam and Charlie and help save the whole world. But it was still lying, and it was only "okay," because the writers chose to make it okay for Dean to lie rather than there be bad consequences for him doing so. And Dean feeling badly because Sam was angry doesn't count as consequences, in my opinion.

In my opinion, if Sam had done that to Dean (all the lying), the narrative would have skewered him for it and made Gadreel the worst thing to happen to the world ever. But it was Dean, so it was okay, and Gadreel was made to be good instead.

Dean wasn't a demon when he made the deal with Cain (who is also a demon.) He wasn't even influenced by the mark yet. And Dean didn't care enough about Tara's death to question Crowley enough not to have him go get a potentially powerful weapon... I mean sure Crowley didn't have the mark, but he knew how to find Cain. What was to stop him from getting the blade and finding another demon to have Cain transfer the mark to and then use as his weapon?

That Crowley didn't... that he thought that he could corrupt Dean and get Dean to turn into the partner he wanted tells me that he thought Dean was corruptible even then. Even before Dean had any demon influence. So Crowley saw the potential darkness in Dean to exploit, and Dean stepped right up to the plate and swung for the fences by taking the mark, no questions asked and no qualms about doing so.

And Sam did feel badly that Lester got corrupted. He tried to stop it even as it was happening. If Sam didn't care at all, he wouldn't have bothered trying to stop it in my opinion. Doesn't make it good behavior, but it also doesn't mean there was no guilt or remorse at all.

If Sam is supposedly partially responsible for Charlie, why wasn't Tara's death partially on Dean? Dean got her involved in dark, risky dealings which directly lead to her gruesome death. And I didn't see all that much guilt for Tara from Dean. Dean found out that Crowley knew they were being followed, and he [Crowley] just let Tara be killed... yet Dean still worked with Crowley - after a token punch - in that he sent Crowley to get the First Blade for him. He chose to listen to Crowley and let Tara be "broken eggs" to make the "omelet" (per Crowley).

And as I said above, Sam did feel guilt for Lester. We saw that with the flashbacks.

And yet Carver gave Dean all of the same supernatural whitewash with little of the consequences. Most of the consequences - except the personal ones - were conveniently shifted over to Sam.

I've seen people complain that Sam's dark powers were justified by the season 5 finale, but the season 9 final episodes weren't much different. Dean's dark powers were used to successfully defeat Abaddon and then helped him to keep Metatron occupied long enough to have his powers removed.

So: what? Because Dean lied and did reckless, dangerous things and took on dark powers recklessly, but didn't apologize it was okay?

That's exactly the double-standard I'm talking about.

I get that that was Sam's arc. I get that Sam was written to go dark and apologize. My point the entire time has been that Dean went dark also. Just because the writers didn't acknowledge his questionable behavior as such - and there was quite a bit of very questionable behavior - doesn't mean it wasn't there.

If Sam lying to Dean was so awful and bad, then in my opinion, Dean's weeks, maybe months of lying should also have been bad. If Sam messing with dark powers is bad, then Dean taking on dark powers and making deals and alliances with demons should also be bad.

Dean wasn't under the influence of anything when he used dark spells to find the First Blade. And when it lead him to Cain instead, Dean still made a deal with Cain rather than leaving, willingly making that bond with Cain and taking on those dark powers. He never asked about the consequences. Dean didn't care that the mark had eventually turned Cain into a killing machine. He did it anyway. And he wasn't remorseful about it. He thought that he was justified.

The writers had a chance to have Dean face consequences*** for those actions when Dean had to call Death to stop the dark forces that HE unleashed and then ended up killing Death instead... but the narrative instead decided to have Dean not face ANY consequences for that.

So apparently Dean didn't need to change his ways at all, since he never said that he was sorry for any of the lying he did in season 9 or for the pain it caused Sam. He never said he was sorry for taking on the mark of Cain (in fact the writers had Sam justify Dean's taking on the mark, instead) or the pain that caused Sam and others.

All of the things they had Sam do and then have to be remorseful for, they let Dean also do to varying degrees, complete with supernatural whitewashing for some of it, but in Dean's case there was no apologizing and little to any consequences. Instead Dean was pretty much justified in almost all of his questionable behavior.

And that's where the narrative loses some of its impact for me, because it then becomes unbalanced with one brother being "right" no matter what and the other being "wrong" no matter what. Which isn't the way the show used to be.

*** (Non-personal ones anyway. Dean did face personal consequences, because he became a demon.)

Sam treated Dean like dirt?*** How about Dean's treating Sam badly? Sure the narrative entirely flipped the script and had Sam say horrible things ("The Purge") and entirely dropped the lying that Dean did and the effect they showed that had on Sam in the first half of season 9, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. It did happen. And if Dean had really felt guilty about it in terms of Sam - and not mainly focused on how guilty it made him feel - he would have apologized for lying to Sam. Instead Dean made excuses and said he had no choice and that he'd do it again. There was no remorse. And then Dean got a supernatural excuse to say all sorts of awful things to Sam.

As for Crowley, I still don't get why Crowley deserves any kind of consideration in season 10. Crowley had killed innocent people to try to influence Sam and Dean simply for his (Crowley's) own gain. He killed Sarah in front of Sam. He almost killed Jody. Then Crowley duplicitously helped to turn Dean into a demon. Sam had every reason and right to kill Crowley ten times over. That Sam would get a benefit from it was just icing on the cake.

Besides, Crowley didn't want Dean to potentially become a demon again any more than Sam did. If he'd gone postal on Sam, Sam wouldn't have been able to get the mark off of Dean - something Crowley very much wanted as well. So Crowley was willing to let Sam go so he could finish that. Crowley is going to choose practicality and personal gain over revenge almost every time. Crowley going postal on Sam for trying to kill him would have been out of character.

*** Though I'm not sure what you are referring to here exactly, but I'll go with it.

Sam knew that using the BotD had risks and using it would cause a catastrophic cosmic event; he didn't care. That's why it does matter that Sam's choices started another Apocalypse.

And Sam chose to lie to everyone about what was going on with Dean. We the viewer never saw Dean out of control until Charlie died because he wasn't. Sam was out of control though and desperate to save him so he lied to get everyone on board and he made de as ls with Rowena and stole that grimoire for her and did things that he should not have done lying all the way. In this way Charlie was brought in and Charlie ended up dead, procuring a dangerous book, from dangerous people that they should never have used. And Charlie's death is what set Dean over the edge.

Sam is culpable because he lied and manipulated her for his own ends. Dean did neither. Dean didn't know that demons were following them. Dean didn't know it was dangerous. Dean wasn't lying to anyone.

Sam apologized to Dean in Love Hurts for his behavior from season 8 onwards. Sam recognized the low self esteem in Dean that lead him to sacrifice himself for others. The same behavior that lead him to take on the MoC. He recognized that his treatment of Dean contributed to his brother's low self esteem and he apologized to him. This is what I am referring to. Sam's poor treatment of Dean is an ongoing theme developed by Carver until Sam finally apologizes in Love Hurts. As I have said before... REDEMPTION ARC.

Crowley didn't turn Dean into a demon... the MoC did. I think that Crowley say it as a Miracle hence the title of the season 9 finale. Crowley himself says that he did not know if the rumors were true and I honestly think Sheppard's performance in the second half of s 9, especially the finale is a revelation. Crowley doesn't know until that last day and one can see rhat he is witnessing a miracle.

I prefer Crowley to Sam any day although Benny and Dean are the best pair by far as loyalty. The only reason Crowley didn't kill Sam is Dean.

Did Dean sacrifice a VIRGIN or a human to find Cain. That was not a dark spell. Dark magic requires a life. A locator spell is not the same thing.

You keep trying to compare apples and oranges.

Yes. Sam was horrible to Dean and when Dean thought he had permanently lost his brother's love he decided to go out doing something good by taking out the current unkillable big bad. Crowley had a way. He meets Cain who excels at killing demons and even Crowley is terrified if him. Dean takes the MoC without hearing about the fine print because he wants to suffer. It never occurs to him that the burden he's told about will hurt anyone else.

It's one decision sight unseen and once it's made it's too late. A far cry from betraying your brother to f@#$ a demon a drink demon blood repeatedly and drain possessed humans dry.

And Dean had Metatron conspiring against him too... itching for a fight... and he killed Cain and Abaddon... after 2 those kills he was doomed. No humans died. Not even when he was a demon. And not intentionally unless he was attacked. (Baby Styne was part of a home invasion party in which he found his family missing).

I think the reason Dean isn't held accountable is because the intent is that he is not accountable except by you desperate to compare apples and oranges. Seasons 8-11 are a complete 4 season arc for Sam in which he betrays Dean, which causes Dean to sacrifice himself because of his low self esteem issuesand then Sam goes dark to save him and then has a redemption arc. It is a repeat of seasons 1-5 with a proper redemption arc... an earned redemptions arc.

Dean does not do anything comparable until s 13 when losing Mary drives his actions and he dies anything to save her and in the finale makes a fatal decision to save Sam (and Jack).

Dean also insisted that they use the BotD in s 14 to resurrect Mary which was wrong. There should have been repercussions from that however canon has fallen apart.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Castiels Cat

AwesomO4000 · February 13, 2020

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Sam knew that using the BotD had risks and using it would cause a catastrophic cosmic event;

Sam knew there were risks. He didn't know about the "cosmic event" until Death told them.

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

And Sam chose to lie to everyone about what was going on with Dean. We the viewer never saw Dean out of control until Charlie died because he wasn't.

We really disagree here. I don't think Sam was lying at all. From what I saw, Sam really did think that Dean was doing worrying things sometimes that indicated that he might eventually get out of control. And Sam had seen the behavior before at the end of season 9, so he knew what Dean working up to getting out of control looked like. Sometimes Sam thought Dean could beat it. Other times he was worried, so he researched in case he needed to find a way to help Dean. And, in my opinion, it's not that unusual to be sometimes hopeful and sometimes worried, depending on the situation.

And I as a viewer did question some of Dean's behavior. You might not have, but I did. The violence of the death at the end of "Ask Jeeves" and breaking Charlie's arm in "No Place Like Home." Which is where Charlie decided to help by looking for the Book of the Damned. In fact, Sam subtly tried to talk Carlie out of going to look for the book. Sam even tried to be hopeful that Dean could be okay in that conversation trying to discourage Charlie, but Charlie saw echoes of Dark Charlie in Dean. She decided Dean needed help on her own. And if you look at that conversation, it's actually DEAN who thinks and says that he's going dark. Sam is saying Dean can beat it. Here's the conversation (From Supernatural Wiki):

Quote

Sam: So . . . are you . . .
Charlie: Good? Bad? I think I'll just settle for balanced. (Dean watches from the table and then goes back to his research) Anything about the Mark?
Sam: Yeah, maybe. I found this book. It's a lore book -- "The Book of the Damned."
Charlie: Sounds legit.
Sam: It's in a library somewhere in Tuscany. It might be a dead end, but I figured...
Charlie: I'll go check it out.
Sam: Whoa--
Charlie: Look, there's no going back to Oz. And with the wizard gone, Dorothy will be fine.
Sam: So, does this mean no more adventure?
Charlie: I think we have all the adventure we can handle right here.
Sam: What about --
Charlie: Dark Charlie? She's, uh . . . Quiet. I just got to keep moving forward. We all do.
Dean: Charlie, I . . .
Charlie: We are going to fix this. I'm not letting what happened to me happen to you.
Dean: But it's already happened.
Sam: Cain found a way to live with it.
Dean: Right. Yeah, after centuries of murder.
Charlie: Yeah, well, there's one thing that you have that he didn't. You're a Winchester. I forgive you, Dean.
Dean: Yeah, well, I don't.
Charlie: I know. Kind of your move. How's that working out for you, huh?
Dean: I'm so sorry, kiddo.
Charlie: Then prove it.
(Hugs happen)
Sam: Be careful out there.
Charlie: Does that sound like either of me? If I find something, I'll call. If not . . . I'll just keep digging.
Sam: Charlie, thank you.
Charlie: Arrivederci, bitches.

If that's supposedly Sam lying to Charlie and influencing her, I don't see it. Charlie was the one who saw the parallels between herself and Dean. And Dean was the one who seconded it. That's what that episode was about. So it was Charlie's decision to help Dean not end up like she did that got her in the sights of the Stynes. Sam had little do do with it except for mentioning the book after Charlie asked... and which Sam thought was a lore book in a library in Tuscany. Nothing to do with what Charlie actually got into.

And earlier in the episode when Dean yells at Charlie "You hurt my friend!" Dark Charlie says "I learned it from watching you." (echoing the drug PSA that used to run here in the 80s or so). So the message of that episode was not that Dean was fine and Sam was lying, but that Dean was slipping and (Dark) Charlie noticed.

Even later Castiel, himself, has a conversation with Dean about what is going to happen to Dean eventually. He says it may not happen in Sam's lifetime, but it will happen in his (Castiel's), meaning that even if Dean isn't going over the deep end now, Castiel thinks it will happen at some point, and he doesn't want to be the one to have to deal with the consequences. That had nothing to do with anything Sam said. It was all Castiel's own conclusions.

So I don't know what you are talking about with Sam supposedly lying and influencing everyone to help him against their will or better judgement and that being the message the show was giving. I guess saying Sam lied to everyone and talked them into it makes for a better "redemption story," but that isn't how it actually happened in text. Everyone made their own conclusions and choices.

Edited February 13, 2020 by AwesomO4000

Aeryn13 · February 13, 2020

I think the entire Season chicken-littled over Dean to some epic degree. Sam and Cas fretted over stuff they themselved did one episode later - like shoving someone against a bar and things like that. The entire story wasn't coherent.

Overall, I don't blame Sam for either Charlie nor in general using the book. I do for when Death told them both about the Darkness story and how releasing the MOC would be a problem and Sam didn't immediately cut in with "about that, we currently have this plan going..." That is IMO the one thing he should have done and didn"'t.

But, you know, in the end Amara is good and Chuck is evil and he wrote everything. So it's all meaningless either way.

AwesomO4000 · February 13, 2020

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Did Dean sacrifice a VIRGIN or a human to find Cain. That was not a dark spell. Dark magic requires a life. A locator spell is not the same thing.

But the mark itself was dark magic. Dean knew it came from Lucifer. He knew Cain murdered his brother in the bargain to get it. There's no way the mark was good. How is that not dark magic and dark power?

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Yes. Sam was horrible to Dean and when Dean thought he had permanently lost his brother's love he decided to go out doing something good by taking out the current unkillable big bad.

Sam was angry because Dean lied to him for weeks about Gadreel. Dean told Sam to his face, repeatedly, that there was nothing wrong with him (Sam) while Sam thought he was going crazy and/or evil again. And when Sam found out about all of the lies, he was understandably angry. Dean was the one who decided to leave. And he left Sam alone to deal with the aftermath of Sam learning that he'd been possessed and that his body was used to kill Kevin. Are you implying that because Sam didn't forgive Dean immediately and beg him not to go, Sam was being mean and so it was his (Sam's) fault that Dean took on the mark of Cain?

Dean decided that Sam wasn't going to forgive him. Sam hardly got to say anything before Dean had already gone and taken the mark. Why was it Sam's responsibility to put all of his extremely understandable anger aside and talk Dean down? Sam had no idea that Dean was going to go do something that reckless.

That bad decision was on Dean.

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

It's one decision sight unseen and once it's made it's too late. A far cry from betraying your brother to f@#$ a demon a drink demon blood repeatedly and drain possessed humans dry.

Which Sam's original decision was made partially - mostly - because Sam did actually lose Dean and was left alone to deal with the guilt and aftermath. But the bad decision that got him into that downward spiral was Sam's bad decision.

Just like Dean's was his. And it wasn't "sight unseen." Dean knew what the mark of Cain was. He knew its history and he knew that Cain was a demon. And Dean knew that there was a cost, but he didn't want to know it and didn't care:

Quote

DEAN: Can I use it to kill that bitch?
CAIN: Yes. But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.
DEAN: Yeah, well, spare me the warning label. You had me at "kill the bitch".
CAIN: Good luck, Dean. You're gonna to need it.
DEAN: Yeah, I get that a lot. Let's dance.

And Dean saw Crowley of all beings make the sign of the cross when he saw the mark, so it isn't like Dean didn't know the thing was heavy duty dark and potentially bad news.

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I think the reason Dean isn't held accountable is because the intent is that he is not accountable except by you desperate to compare apples and oranges. Seasons 8-11 are a complete 4 season arc for Sam in which he betrays Dean, which causes Dean to sacrifice himself because of his low self esteem issuesand then Sam goes dark to save him and then has a redemption arc. It is a repeat of seasons 1-5 with a proper redemption arc... an earned redemptions arc.

And I'm not desperate to compare anything. I accept that Sam made bad decisions and mistakes. My issue is that Dean did also. You might call it apples and oranges, but they are both bad fruit. The flavor of the bad makes little difference. That the show only treats one as bad - despite all of the lead up and narrative that the other is also bad in its own way - is my issue. It makes for uneven storytelling and messaging.

And how the heck does Sam "betray" Dean in season 9? Dean is the one who lies to Sam, and Dean "sacrifices himself" before Sam even has a chance to forgive him. Why should Sam have had to forgive Dean immediately? Sam had every right to be angry about being lied to and having Dean help an unknown angel who possessed and used his (Sam's) body and invaded his mind continue to do so.

And if you are talking about season 8 as the betrayal, Sam behaved like an asshole in that season for sure (it was out of character in my opinion, and a crappy thing to do to Sam's character, but it happened), but Dean's self-esteem issues are on Dean. Dean could have walked away. Dean could have stood up for himself. He's a grown man. He didn't. He chose to take the path he did. That's on Dean.

And what you call an "earned redemption arc" I call character assassination for very little gain. I was fine with Sam's first retribution and character growth arc which I already outlined above. And season 8-11 wasn't even a good redemption arc, because if Sam's only worth is to say he's sorry to Dean and accept that he should just listen to and do whatever Dean says, for me that isn't much of a redemption arc.

I found season 8 and 9 insulting to Sam myself.

Quote

Sam apologized to Dean in Love Hurts for his behavior from season 8 onwards. Sam recognized the low self esteem in Dean that lead him to sacrifice himself for others. The same behavior that lead him to take on the MoC. He recognized that his treatment of Dean contributed to his brother's low self esteem and he apologized to him. This is what I am referring to. Sam's poor treatment of Dean is an ongoing theme developed by Carver until Sam finally apologizes in Love Hurts. As I have said before... REDEMPTION ARC.

I disagree. Why should Sam be responsible for Dean's low self-esteem? As I said, Dean's a grown man and is perfectly capable of making his own decisions.

And Carver may have developed that theme - I'm not sure - but if he did, I don't know why. Sam wasn't treating Dean badly in season 6B through 7. Sam was being attentive to Dean, telling Dean he should take care of himself, doing kind things for Dean, sharing with Dean, pulling his weight despite his hallucinations, devoted to hunting, and supporting Dean in his need for revenge against Dick Roman. Having Sam treat Dean poorly made no sense character-wise in my opinion at that point. We'd already moved past that. If Carver couldn't be bothered to pay attention to that character development, that's on him.

And if Carver needed to do it over "better," he should have chosen something else. That he had Sam not look for Dean was crappy, in my opinion, especially considering less than half a season before Carver took over, there was an episode where Sam lost Dean with fewer clues and Sam still did everything he could to find Dean. Why not have Sam go dark looking for Dean as the do-over redemption arc if Carver had to do one so badly? That would've worked just as well... Of course then Carver couldn't have had his original character Benny being the awesome "better brother" - which is why I think that was the real motivation behind Carver's "arc" for Sam. Carver seemed to be in love with all of his original characters. That's why a lot of them stayed around well past their expiration date (Amelia, Cole, Gadreel.)

Res · February 14, 2020

On 2/12/2020 at 1:44 PM, NougatJack said:

Ah okay, you‘re talking about Dean forgiving Cas.... It‘s not the first time Dean forgives Cas really quick. He also forgave Cas for releasing the Leviathans -which led to the death of Bobby. The one who was like a father to Sam and Dean.

Sorry, but I hardcore disagree with the bolded as much as I disagree with Jack being a Winchester or Dean's son. I especially disagree with Bobby being like a father to Dean as I don't believe that a father figure (aka replacement for John) gives "boo hoo, princess" or "ain't a person" speeches. To Sam, who never got that kind of crap, Bobby probably is a father figure since he's hardly shown disagreeing with Bobby and gets rousing praise from him. JMHO.

Only supernatural beings and miscellaneous people seemed to be okay, accept and occasionally praise Dean (if he wasn't currently trying to piss them off).

Harleycat · February 14, 2020

3 hours ago, Res said:

Sorry, but I hardcore disagree with the bolded as much as I disagree with Jack being a Winchester or Dean's son. I especially disagree with Bobby being like a father to Dean as I don't believe that a father figure (aka replacement for John) gives "boo hoo, princess" or "ain't a person" speeches. To Sam, who never got that kind of crap, Bobby probably is a father figure since he's hardly shown disagreeing with Bobby and gets rousing praise from him. JMHO.

Only supernatural beings and miscellaneous people seemed to be okay, accept and occasionally praise Dean (if he wasn't currently trying to piss them off).

Bobby saw the boys as adapted son's to him. The writers never made it clear what Dean or Sam felt about Bobby other then seeing him as someone they could depend on, so I guess we'll never know. Bobby also said when he had to tell the truth that Dean was his favorite, so does it really matter if he encouraged Sam more? Maybe he was supposed to feel like Dean was a solid enough person that he didn't need to baby him.

And even if Dean doesn't see Jack as a son Jack definitely sees Dean as the closest thing to a father figure that he's going to get. We probably will also never know how Dean or Sam really feel about Jack, as that I just how they role with Dean and Sam's feelings about anything other then how they feel about each other. Sam has been "dating" Eileen for awhile now and he hasn't even admitted to even liking her. The boys play it close to their chest with their feelings, the show has been consistent with at least that.

ahrtee · February 14, 2020

48 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

The writers never made it clear what Dean or Sam felt about Bobby other then seeing him as someone they could depend on, so I guess we'll never know.

From Lazarus Rising:

DEAN: (shoves a chair between himself and BOBBY, holds his hands out) Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait! Your name is Robert Steven Singer. You became a hunter after your wife got possessed, and... you're about the closest thing I have to a father. Bobby. It's me.

ILoveReading · February 14, 2020

8 hours ago, Harleycat said:

The writers never made it clear what Dean or Sam felt about Bobby other then seeing him as someone they could depend on, so I guess we'll never know.

Also their reaction to his death spoke volumes.

8 hours ago, Harleycat said:

Bobby also said when he had to tell the truth that Dean was his favorite, so does it really matter if he encouraged Sam more? Maybe he was supposed to feel like Dean was a solid enough person that he didn't need to baby him.

Talk is cheap if you never back up your words. Bobby might have said Dean is his favorite but he certainly didn't treat him like that. He really didn't treat him any better than John. There is a difference between babying someone and treating them with respect, which he did with Sam and his feelings.

Bobby also said Sam was the better hunter. I'd rather Dean be the better hunter. If that is how Bobby treats his favorite, Sam is welcome to him.

Res · February 14, 2020

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Also their reaction to his death spoke volumes.

Talk is cheap if you never back up your words. Bobby might have said Dean is his favorite but he certainly didn't treat him like that. He really didn't treat him any better than John. There is a difference between babying someone and treating them with respect, which he did with Sam and his feelings.

Bobby also said Sam was the better hunter. I'd rather Dean be the better hunter. If that is how Bobby treats his favorite, Sam is welcome to him.

This exactly.

Harleycat · February 14, 2020

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Talk is cheap if you never back up your words. Bobby might have said Dean is his favorite but he certainly didn't treat him like that. He really didn't treat him any better than John. There is a difference between babying someone and treating them with respect, which he did with Sam and his feelings.

Bobby also said Sam was the better hunter. I'd rather Dean be the better hunter. If that is how Bobby treats his favorite, Sam is welcome to him.

He talked more to Dean then Sam. They had discussions, not just pep talks. I got the feeling that he had a lot more respect for Dean then Sam anyway, but it also just could have been because Jensen had better chemistry with him then Jared.

Katy M · February 14, 2020

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Bobby also said Sam was the better hunter. I'd rather Dean be the better hunter. If that is how Bobby treats his favorite, Sam is welcome to him.

He said Sam was the better hunter, lately. as in while he was soulless, which depending on the episode sometimes meant he had no fear.

gonzosgirrl · February 14, 2020

20 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He said Sam was the better hunter, lately. as in while he was soulless, which depending on the episode sometimes meant he had no fear.

Or conscience ;)

catrox14 · February 14, 2020

To me , it doesn't matter if Sam and Bobby gave Dean props as a hunter at any point, because NOW Chuck the author (aka Dabb) is NOW having Dean say Sam is better at everything than him, and no character is given the opportunity to refute that comment not even Sam. At this point, this tells me what the author of the work thinks about Sam and Dean. And I don't see Dabb walking that back ever.

Pondlass1 · February 14, 2020

Dean and Bobby were drinking buddies. I think Bobby enjoyed Dean’s company more than Sam’s. But he was way harder on Dean. It was unfair and hurtful sometimes.

But that’s life. And that’s why I enjoyed this show in the earlier seasons.

The puddle deep emotions we’re served up now keeps the Twitter crowd happy, but I’ve lost interest.

AwesomO4000 · February 18, 2020

Brought over from the all seasons thread:

37 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

Really for me the bunker was the beginning of the end, because it made the brothers world not grounded in reality anymore. I think my favorite time for them was actually when they went off the grid and couldn't even get motel rooms. It was a real world obstacle that they had to work around to contrast their monster hunting jobs.

As said over in that thread, I loved season 7. And I think one of the reasons was that the season focused on Sam and Dean , but not against each other, but an external force.

Season 8 was where it went wrong for me. I like to skip over it and huge chunks of season 9 in my head (except the Metatron parts) and go straight to season 10 and 11.

After that things are pretty meh for me. Season 12 could have been okay except for the the BMoL. Once again we get original recurring characters that the writers were in love with: Lady McKillerton, Mitch, Ketch, Lady McKillerton II, etc. And the writers went about making them "better" than the Winchesters for much of the season until the Winchesters - after being totally duped - prove they are actually "better" by simply killing them all. That was basically the entire story.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be other interesting recurring characters, but in my opinion, the story works much better when the writers aren't trying to have their own characters take the story away from the main characters. It's why I don't like season 8 - with Amelia and Benny and Naomi taking up soooo much time and focus - or season 9 with Gadreel and so much time spent on his redemption. The Dean Mark of Cain story was great and should have been the focus without Gadreel "the misunderstood" taking away a bunch of that focus in the second half of the season. Shoehorning Gadreel's redemption in there also lead to muddying a bunch of the previous story in order to get it done (changing the story to imply that Sam was partially to blame for his own possession and the he (paraphrase) "should have known better" for example was awful and inexcusable in my opinion.)

I liked season 10 better because the focus was once again on Sam and Dean. Same with season 11. But then season 12 was back to the focus on all of these other characters: Lucifer, Claire, Jack, Mary, etc. etc.

So I guess that's the bottom line for me. The story works best when Sam and Dean are the focus and the writers aren't trying to make their own original characters shine and be "better" or more "heroic" than Sam and Dean.

FlickChick · February 18, 2020

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So I guess that's the bottom line for me. The story works best when Sam and Dean are the focus and the writers aren't trying to make their own original characters shine and be "better" or more "heroic" than Sam and Dean.

Let's face it, that ship has not only sailed, but is docked in Neverland with the boy who never grew up. 😞

Edited February 18, 2020 by FlickChick
Brevity

AwesomO4000 · February 19, 2020

3 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Let's face it, that ship has not only sailed, but is docked in Neverland with the boy who never grew up. 😞

Agreed.

That's why I brought my comment over here rather than leave it there.

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