Underground - General Discussion

[catrice2]

Amazing!   Although since she was not supposed to be one of the Macon 7 it does not seem fair that Rosalee tasted freedom and Sam died. Even though she eventually had her revenge I thought Stine was going to do it in the scene when he was asking for forgiveness.  Can't decide if I am glad that he told Rosalee about Sam, or if he should have just let her have hope. 

 

So many things to think about...I'll have to watch it again.  At least Ben is not dead. 

[Jazzy24]

Go head Ernestine!!! Someone mentioned up that Suzanne better watch herself after what Stein did to Pearly Mae and Tom she needs to become a born again Christian cause Stein ain't playing.  

Burn in hell Tom Macon!! 

You can burn with him too Kyle. 

Cato made it. 

Boo also made it. I thought it was so beautiful with her running around happy and free. 

Noah is going to always run he better make it. 

Rosilee telling the story of the Macon 7 was too much I was sobbing all kinds of ugly. 

But I screamed "Yes!!" When she said she was going back. 

And Harriet!!! 

I'm ready for season 2. 

[InsertWordHere]

28 minutes ago, Jodie Landon said:

Well, in her speech to Tom she said that safety wasn't real, and she was right. Had Tom lived, she would have had to go to Washington and leave James behind.

You are right. Due to all that happened afterwards, it totally slipped my mind that Earnestine would have been separated from James even if Tom had lived, although I wonder if he really would have gone through with it.

[Jodie Landon]

9 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

You are right. Due to all that happened afterwards, it totally slipped my mind that Earnestine would have been separated from James even if Tom had lived, although I wonder if he really would have gone through with it.

I think he was just saying whatever it took to get back into Earnestine's good graces. It blows my mind that he killed her son, but thought that bringing James to the shop instead of the fields, and whisking Earnestine away to D.C. would be enough to right that wrong. As a kid I remember reading a book in which the slave master sold a family member of his cook; he then sent the cook to the fields because he thought that she would poison him. Tom didn't seem to have that fear. I actually thought that Earnestine had poisoned his drink because she hesitated before sipping hers, but Tom was much more deserving of the method she chose. I liked that the crooked reverend's slave was the one that helped her do it. Earnestine going to the auction block is an interesting twist, but I believe she'll survive it; she's too strong and smart not to.

I really enjoyed the evolution of Rosalee throughout the season. She's actually a lot like her mother.

This show was so beautifully done. I don't understand how they expect us to wait until next year for the new season.

[Emily Thrace]

On 2016-04-25 at 7:19 PM, doram said:

 

 

And she is no doubt aware that mulattos will probably fetch a better price for someone looking to populate a harem.

That's something else that makes me think Tom actually cares about Rosalee and Ernestine. She could have been sold off at any time.  That doesn't necessarily mean he won't allow her to be punished any more than he wouldn't hesitate to belt  his white kids if he thought it was needed. I think Tom is probably best characterized as an abuser when it comes to the people he owns. He isn't a sociopath and he wants to be liked so he  tells himself he only hurts them when its necessary. I also think more than anything the show wants us to see Tom as flawed and human and let us decide if he's bad or good. The truth is not all slave owners were evil or even bad people. Some of them probably were fair or kind or just ignorant. People are complicated and Tom is definitely a fine example of that. I think what the show is trying to do with characters like Tom and August is simply be fair and truthful. Whether their successful or not is of course a case of YMMV.

[hoosiermommy]

I really like that the commentary on this is that everyone's hands were made dirty by slavery.  Even the "good" people, the ones we root for (Elizabeth and John, Stein, Rosalee, Noah) turned violent.  It isn't that they weren't justified, but because of slavery, John killed a man with his bare hands (well, slavery and rape).  Stein protected her children by committing murder. Twice.  Rosalee shot August (who should be dead being gutshot and all...sanitation, even in the medical field was nearly non-existent in those days and gut shot was usually a death sentence). 

I am kind of irritated that they had the repentant Tom scene, trying to redeem his character, but I think that maybe they understood that we the audience knew he wasn't repentant, he was looking for a roll in the hay. No repentance. 

And Mrs. Tom (can't think of her name), I can totally understand her motivation.  Not jealous of her as a lover, but as a mother figure.  Of all the things she could have been upset about, that is the one that hits home with me.  I mean, I am not an awful mom, so I don't really have to worry about it, but when you first put your child in daycare or preschool and you wonder if some other woman is going to become their mother figure and it tears you up....so I totally get it.  I also love that she acknowledge that Stein's preganancy meant more workers, but honestly, I would have liked it more if they had acknowledge that it wasn't just more workers but more wealth created by that union.  So Tom was really looking out and providing for his family by making slave babies who would be worth money.

[mrsbagnet]

I'm confused about what happened in John's story, when he beat the other slave owner. His friend stopped the beating, but did his friend get free? What happened to the young woman that John bought?

[mrsbagnet]

The bathtub scene between Noah and Rosalee was beautiful and intense. My God, they've been through so much! You could just see the pain, sadness, and relief pouring out of them. The actors killed it. That has to be one of the best love scenes I've ever seen. I have to rewatch.

7 hours ago, Jodie Landon said:

I actually thought that Earnestine had poisoned his drink because she hesitated before sipping hers, but Tom was much more deserving of the method she chose. I liked that the crooked reverend's slave was the one that helped her do it.

The reverend's slave has probably had a slow burn going for a while. Tom was so pathetic and weak. I'm glad the two of them ended him.

[C76]

Here's a piece from Deadline about the season finale:

http://deadline.com/2016/05/underground-finale-spoilers-season-1-harriet-tubman-wgn-america-1201752535/

[ridethemaverick]

I love that this show is brutally honest about the white women of the planter class and how complicit they were in the system of slavery. Sorry Susannah, your whining about your children means exactly shit. Did she honestly believe Stine wanted those kids to love her? Did she honestly believe Stine would have rather been doing anything other than raising and doting on her own damn children? She had no choice. 

I disagree that Tom was raping Stine in order to look after his own family. He raped Stine because he was a rapist in lust with the woman he owned. The free labor was a profitable consequence of his foul behavior. But I'm sure Susannah and her ilk told themselves a lot of lies to live with it. 

Good riddance to Tom. I want believe he had the gall to ask for forgiveness. No wait, yes I can.

Noahlee...so beautiful. That scene said so much about black love without saying a word. Amazing.

August is every horror movie villain. He just won't die.

Can't wait for 2017!

Edited May 12, 2016 by ridethemaverick

[drivethroo]

All Suzanna did was sit on her ass all day**.  She wasn't working and putting Mary & TR & baby Sam in daycare.  And I realize she was pregnant this season but all Suzanna does is sit on her ass all day doing nothing.  That's not slavery's fault, that's not Ernestine's fault, that's HER fault for being a crappy person and a bad mother*.  She probably didn't even have sex with Tom all that much, considering the large age gaps between her children.

 

I am concerned about Elizabeth & John's wellbeing because August is still alive to tell everyone they are helping slaves runaway.

 

Cato lives! Boo free! Roselee teaming up with Harriet Tubman! Rosalee was speaking with William Still, an abolitionist who also recorded slave narratives.  That's whose writings Elizabeth slipped into Kyle's desk.

 

I wonder why Tom changed his name to "Macon" instead of "Hawkes"?

 

I guess Ernestine was like, you lynch my son, I lynch you. Bye bye!

 

After seeing Rosalee whipped and hunted, Sam lynched and James tossed out into the fields Ernestine realized there was no deal she could make, no pleasure she could give, no amount of reasoning would keep her children safe.  If that Reverend wanted little James lynched, James would be swinging.  It was true in 1857 and many would say it's still the case in 2016.

 

Suzanna is actually being correct by selling Ernestine because Suzanna's representatives are hunting Ernestine's daughter and killed Ernestine's son.  No way would I want Ernestine in my house after that, especially since there's no need for her bed wench services anymore.

 

*It would be interesting if a black baby resulted from Suzanna's teenage stable humpings and she was "sent away to live with an aunt" while she had the baby, came back and was married off to Tom.  They didn't seem like a loving couple; it seemed like more like a marriage of convenience.  Tom was looking for a come up (Suzanna actually owns the plantation, not Tom).

 

**Who will Suzanna get to run the plantation? Will she run it herself or get an administrator? She better live it up now and stack some American paper up somewhere because Sherman is coming real soon to snatch all of her edges.

[Ohwell]

I don't think I'll be back next season.  Sadly, now that Sam is gone I'm just not interested anymore.  I might do a drive by now and then but the acting kind of leaves me cold.  I also don't care for the actress who plays Rosalee.    I'm glad Boo got out but I'll just leave it there. 

[wanderingstar]

Quote

Good riddance to Tom. I want believe he had the gall to ask for forgiveness. No wait, yes I can.

Ugh. He was so vile. I for sure cheered his death.

[larapu2000]

CATO!  So glad he made it.  I was also afraid Rosalee was pregnant from her (very very steamy) roll in the hay with Noah, because all women in all shows and movies before condoms and birth control pills get pregnant if they have the sex one time, so I almost clapped with glee that she wasn't.  And HARRIET!  I wonder who'll they cast, I've got my fingers crossed for Octavia Spencer, if only because she played Octavia Spencer playing Harriet Tubman on 30 Rock and it was awesome.

I thought this show was very well done-it was unpredictable in many ways without being illogical, and even if I think it pulled its punches in showing the really disgusting living/working conditions slaves existed in (I realize some plantations were "better" than others, but the box they put Ernestine in was a little too clean for my taste.)  because I think that kind of sensory overload is essential to telling the story of the horror of slavery. 

I think the point of selling Ernestine is to move the action to another plantation next season and maybe she's heading up the escape team.  Will we be back at the Macon plantation at all next year?  I'd love more threads, more stories than just the one group/plantation.  Maybe Rosalee's storyline with the Railroad will allow for that.

[LBS]

I thought the scene in which Noah washes Rosalee back a beautiful call back to the first episode.  I thought it was a beautiful moment of trust and showed the growth between them.

[Jx223]

9 hours ago, doram said:

This woman was a full-time housewife. The only reason why she wasn't playing a bigger role in her children's lives is because her lazy ass didn't want to. 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, ridethemaverick said:

Sorry Susannah, your whining about your children means exactly shit. Did she honestly believe Stine wanted those kids to love her? Did she honestly believe Stine would have rather been doing anything other than raising and doting on her own damn children? 

 

I don't feel Sorry for Susannah and her whining about her kids seemed to prefer Ernestine over her. She could have been a more involved mother. But instead she let Ernestine do a lot of the parenting regarding them, while she sat back and behaved like a socialite. Ernestine had to help rear Susannah's children, while taking of her own kids and helping run the household/plantation. Plus, she had to constantly worry whether her children would be sold away/beaten/raped. Susannah didn't have to worry constantly with those type of fears regarding her children.

Susannah said that she had to watch her kids cry out for Ernestine. That's Susannah's fault. If she had spent more time taking care of her children, maybe they wouldn't have been so quick to cry for Ernestine.

7 hours ago, drivethroo said:

 

**Who will Suzanna get to run the plantation? Will she run it herself or get an administrator? She better live it up now and stack some American paper up somewhere because Sherman is coming real soon to snatch all of her edges.

I wonder if we may see John and Elizabeth again. Could they show up in some capacity to help Susannah deal with the loss of Tom/handle matters with the plantation/and look after the kids. Maybe John might behave more as a father figure to the kids, now that Tom is gone. Speaking of father figure, I loved the expression on John's face when he found out that Rosalee was his niece. I thought he had know that prior to helping her escape, but it looks like he didn't know that. 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Jx223

[catrice2]

Even though Rosalee and Noah were supposed to be the heroes, in spite of his arc, I cared more about Cato.  Outstanding acting by all, great storytelling, but those two were the least believable to me.   Smollett just never sounded the part, I could not connect to her acting.   Vann was amazing and owned every scene, as did the actor that played Cato and many others.  Glad there will be a season two, but I want new characters....well, they killed all the ones I liked best.  Henry, Sam, Zeke. 

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

Even though Rosalee and Noah were supposed to be the heroes, in spite of his arc, I cared more about Cato.  Outstanding acting by all, great storytelling, but those two were the least believable to me.   Smollett just never sounded the part, I could not connect to her acting.   Vann was amazing and owned every scene, as did the actor that played Cato and many others.  Glad there will be a season two, but I want new characters....well, they killed all the ones I liked best.  Henry, Sam, Zeke. 

Yeah, I don't think all the actors were bad, but you're right, the two leads kind of left me cold, especially Rosalee.   I'm also sick of August. Cato is more intriguing, and maybe if they come up with some new characters for season two, I might give it another chance.

[catrice2]

30 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Yeah, I don't think all the actors were bad, but you're right, the two leads kind of left me cold, especially Rosalee.   I'm also sick of August. Cato is more intriguing, and maybe if they come up with some new characters for season two, I might give it another chance.

I don't really think anyone was bad as you say, but I just could not connect to those two.  When they were on alone, I kept wanting other characters to be present.  Their best scenes were when they were with someone stronger, Noah with Cato, Rosalee with August..etc.  I just couldn't put my finger on it.  The show was still great, but they were not the ones I was really rooting for.  I am disappointed not to see more of Mykel T. Williamson.  They keep saying that a lot of the actors will return in a different context...not sure what that means.  

[hoosiermommy]

It isn't that I feel sorry for Suzanne.  I just find it interesting that the writers chose to ground her jealousy in something many women today feel...jealousy or inadequacy.  I don't feel like I am bragging to say I am a better mom than Suzanne is/was to her kids, and I can logically justify the use of daycare and preschool, but honestly, what mother hasn't had that moment when they drop the kids off for the first time (or fiftieth time or five hundredth time) when you get a feeling in your gut that someone else is raising your child?  This is not a social commentary, just an observation.  I do not feel guilt for my choices in childcare and child rearing, and I am a very (exceedingly) logical thinker, and even I felt it. It passes, but yes, that fear was very relatable despite her being a horrible person and mother.

Yup, Suzanne brought it on herself, and I don't feel sorry for her, but I can totally understand the underlying hurt that she had that her children turned to someone else as a mother figure.

A nice choice by the writers.  Again and again they chose a unexpected direction that felt totally organic. 

[CTrent29]

Quote

Yeah, I don't think all the actors were bad, but you're right, the two leads kind of left me cold, especially Rosalee.  

I don't share your feelings.  I don't hate Cato.  I hope he makes it to freedom.  But I haven't forgotten what he had done to Zeke.  Unlike Noah, Cato didn't even try to help Zeke.  And he was a little irritating at times.  Now that I'm older, I've grown a little weary of so call "bad boys".  On the hand hand, I've always been cheering for the relationship between Noah and Rosalee.

 

I see that whereas Season One was about making the run to freedom, Season Two will be about a rescue from slavery. 

[ridethemaverick]

I'm still hoping for a season of backstory. I want to know all about Cato's family and previous escape attempts. I want to see young Ernestine and her husband and how she ended up in the big house. Etc. There's so much ground to cover.

[LoveIsJoy]

For the most part, I enjoyed the season, but I was surprisingly disappointed in Jurnee Smollett's acting in this.  I loved her so much in Eve's Bayou, but for some reason I didn't get any depth or connection to her character.  She never seemed to disappear into Rosalee or bring the character to life.  Unlike other posters, I never felt any real chemistry between her and Noah.  

In contrast, I adore the actress who plays Ernestine and I also thought the actors who portray Cato, Elisabeth, John and Pearlie Mae and some of the children were strong.  I honestly wish I felt the same about Rosalee and Noah as most of my fellow posters here seem to.  I just came away feeling blah about the main characters I'm supposed to be invested in.  Still on board for Season 2, but not nearly as excited as I'd hoped I would be.

[drivethroo]

Quote

I wonder if we may see John and Elizabeth again. Could they show up in some capacity to help Susannah deal with the loss of Tom/handle matters with the plantation/and look after the kids. Maybe John might behave more as a father figure to the kids, now that Tom is gone. Speaking of father figure, I loved the expression on John's face when he found out that Rosalee was his niece. I thought he had know that prior to helping her escape, but it looks like he didn't know that. 

I doubt seriously Susanna would accept help from John and Elizabeth because she doesn't like John and Elizabeth.  She looked like barely tolerated Tom.  Although I do wonder if John will attempt to get closer to Susanna to help James, who is his nephew.

 

Susanna is a good villainess and as long as James is still on the Macon plantation, we'll likely see Susanna & TR next season.  Mary is of marriage age so I wonder if she will have a suitor next season.  With James being brought back into the big house, I wonder about him & TR next season.

 

I am also interested in learning how Cato got away and his wife and daughter.

 

I suspect Ernestine is a mulatto; if so, the question would be who is her father? I doubt it's Susanna & Pearly Mae's father; it would be funny if the evil Reverend is Ernestine's father.

 

I think Patty Cannon & her gang will be back next season too.  I think August will end up teaming up with her.

Edited May 13, 2016 by drivethroo

[aarondk88]

great season finale.

rosalee and harriet tubman teaming up should be nothing short of epic. the fact that harriet is now going to be a character on the show is reason enough for me to patiently wait on season 2, as if there weren't already enough reasons.

I knew cato wasn't dead and that he buried/hid that money somewhere. very interested in how he managed to escape that situation (he was very outnumbered) and maybe we can learn more about his backstory...mainly his wife and daughter.

august just wont die!! why??!? smh. and who is caring for ben while august continues out "on the hunt"??

Susannah did Ernestine very dirty, looking forward to see how Ernestine gets out of that.

[AntFTW]

Taking a stab in the dark here... I'm thinking that next season Cato either buys his own freedom with the money or escaped to freedom (which I imagine would be difficult with a trunk of money). He uses it to locate his wife and buy her freedom.

Edited May 15, 2016 by AntFTW

[CTrent29]

While reading these comments about Cato, I keep forgetting that the so called "bad boys" are always the ones who tend to be popular with fans.  I used to be like that when  I was younger . . . until I grew up and realized how tiresome they can be.

 

It's one thing to find Cato interesting.  It's just that both Rosalee and Noah seemed to be victims of certain fans' admiration of him.  And I don't think they or the actors portraying them deserve it.

[CTrent29]

Quote

I saw those eyes Cato was giving Rosalee. Does Noah have a rival for Ms. Rose's affections? Hmm...

As far as I know, the answer is . . . no.

I wonder why some fans have been trying to push Rosalee and Cato as some kind of potentially great romance?  The only time he had shown any admiration toward her was when she was engaged in some fake Southern Belle routine.  She was pretending . . . engaging in an illusion for others.  And that’s the only time that Cato was able to be impressed by her?  And some fans find that romantic?

[Ohwell]

2 hours ago, CTrent29 said:

It's one thing to find Cato interesting.  It's just that both Rosalee and Noah seemed to be victims of certain fans' admiration of him.  And I don't think they or the actors portraying them deserve it.

Deserve what?  Just because I don't find the actress who plays Rosalee to be that good?  I think Noah's character is much better when he's not with Rosalee.  That's got nothing to do with whether or not I find Cato interesting. 

[CTrent29]

Noah isn't all that nice.  He admitted that he had formed the Macon 7 to in order to use them to help him escape.  And Rosalee wasn't particularly fond of his decision to hijack that flatboat or whatever it was in Episode 6.  He just know how to dress his ruthlessness with a noble or friendly manner, unlike Cato.

[CTrent29]

Oh I see.  It's all about Rosalee.  She's not the typical, feisty action woman that is so popular with television and movie fans.  I guess when it comes to her, we both have to disagree.

[goldil]

I know my TV boyfriend plays the bad guy (I'm keeping hope for redemption in season 2), but I had to chuckle during the scene when Jeremiah Johnson told him they'd have to renegotiate their deal. It was the one light scene of the episode, relatively speaking.

[Ohwell]

10 hours ago, CTrent29 said:

Oh I see.  It's all about Rosalee.  She's not the typical, feisty action woman that is so popular with television and movie fans.  I guess when it comes to her, we both have to disagree.

The point is, it's  not up to you to decide what or who is "appropriate" for other people to like or dislike, whether it's Rosalee, Noah, Cato or someone else.

But you are right about one thing:  We can agree to disagree.  

[CTrent29]

This is the second production that featured Harriet Tubman in the Ohio River Valley.  1994's "RACE TO FREEDOM: THE UNDERGROUND RAILROAD" was the first.  What I find ironic about this is that Tubman had never operated in that region.  She usually operated along the East Coast - between Maryland and Eastern Canada, via Philadelphia and upstate New York.

[drivethroo]

We don't know where Rosalee is, though.  We can assume she's in the same area and going back to the Macon plantation but we really don't have this information yet.  All we know is Rosalee talked to William Still, climbed out of a wagon and met Harriet Tubman.  Where she met her, we really don't know.

[C76]

On 5/16/2016 at 10:49 PM, CTrent29 said:

Noah isn't all that nice.  He admitted that he had formed the Macon 7 to in order to use them to help him escape.  And Rosalee wasn't particularly fond of his decision to hijack that flatboat or whatever it was in Episode 6.  He just know how to dress his ruthlessness with a noble or friendly manner, unlike Cato.

1. Mileage varies, but IMO Noah formed the Macon 7 so that they could escape together.

2. The decision to hijack the boat wasn't necessarily a pleasant one. Yet it was a critical part of the M7's escape. They had a long distance to travel. Being able to traverse part of it by boat proved to be advantageous.

If you take Underground out of the Antebellum era and set it in a jail, I'd probably feel the same. I fail to see how the examples you presented make Noah "ruthless". 

[AmandaPanda]

Just downloaded the whole season from iTunes and am slowly making my way through it. Glad to see I wasn't the only one who thought Cato was played by Jussie Smollett. He's actually played by the guy who played Roman Zazo on Jane the Virgin. 

[moonorchid]

I am just now catching up with the last few episodes. 

All I have to say is I am extremely unsettled still at the image of Sam hanging there with the American flag and the fireworks. Tom up there boasting about making America great for our children. 

I knew Sam was probably going to be lynched when Tom backed off the original punishment. But this show did what very few others do for me and that is shock and surprise me.

I gasped out loud in horror and literally had my hand over my mouth till the end of the episode. 

This whole show is a statement in a sense and that has never been driven home more than when they revealed Sam hanging there with all the white men staring up at Tom with reverence and pride in their eyes. 

I can't even find the words.

[netlyon2]

Casting updates:  AISHA HINDS WILL PLAY HARRIET TUBMAN IN SEASON 2 OF WGN’S ‘UNDERGROUND’

[aarondk88]

so ready for season 2 ^___^

[Kirsty]

Late to the game but I'm enjoying this show. It helps that Noah and Rosalie are played by very likable actors from Friday Night Lights. And I love the contemporary music used on the soundtrack. The use of modern music in a historical setting reminds me a little of Peaky Blinders. As does the fun-loving attitude in the way that a scheme -- like fooling the slave catchers in Philly -- plays out.

Are we following the lawyer and his wife because otherwise all the white people on the show would be heinous racists who own slaves or catch them? I don't think it's necessary to have some decent white people as main characters just to prove that they existed. The show could have focused on the William Still character if the idea was to show us someone organising the Underground Railroad. I'm enjoying the lawyer and wife storylines so far; I'm just not sure why they're part of the show. I don't need white people to root for on every show I watch.

And I'm far less interested in Stabler the slave-catcher. Sure, that was a great twist in the first episode that I never saw coming. Even when it transpired that the slave he had helped had since been captured, I didn't put two and two together on my own! But I don't care about his woes. His problems don't justify hunting people like animals. Am I supposed to be thinking "Oh, the poor, sad slave-hunter. He just slaughtered an escaped slave and he's so sad because his wife is in the hospital"? CRY MOAR, STABLER. I wonder why he is getting more layers to his character than the plantation owning couple.

The scenes of violence are very effective at showing us the horror of slavery. But I also think the non-violent scenes of (fucked-up) everyday life inside the house work really well eg. the scene of the white mother and daughter at the piano, where there were two other people standing in the room who weren't considered fully human. Or the little boy fanning the guests at the party in the first episode.

And I like the ways that sex is shown to be tied up in it, with the treatment of Rosalie by the group of white men, and with none of the slaves in a position to consent. So Rosalie's mother is bargaining with the only thing she has, her body, to keep her children safe. And the male slaves that the white lady chooses are forced to have sex with her.

It's horrifying, so the show could be far more harrowing and depressing than it is. Managing the tone of this show must be tricky as hell, but keeping it focused on what's basically a prison break, and the various schemes to escape capture, make it enjoyable to watch.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Kirsty

[Kirsty]

Rosalie's mother, Ernestine, is really impressive. The way she navigates the hierarchy of power at the house is fascinating. She can't be openly hostile, or aggressive, or anything but cheerful and nice to the white family. It's deeply screwed-up that she has to constantly improvise and scheme to protect her children, but she excels at it. And the actress gives the character such authority and strength of will.

I imagine she has some considerable influence over the white children. She has to fuck the master for favours. But so far she has no way to influence the mistress of the house, Suzanna, who is no fan of Ernestine's. We've seen Suzanna resent Ernestine's bond with Suzanna's children. And I'm very curious if Suzanna knows or suspects that her husband has a sexual relationship with Ernestine. I guess Suzanna is slightly threatened by her, which drives Suzanna to regularly demonstrate her power over Ernestine, mostly by threatening to harm her son.

Why is Suzanna easier to hate than her husband Tom? I mean, they're both heinous obviously, but shouldn't Tom be the more hateful, given that Suzanna was born and raised into this culture? Intellectually it's easier to understand how she could accept the slavery. Her husband has no such excuse. And her husband is ultimately the one who holds the power. Sure, he gets many more scenes than her, which means more opportunities to show us other sides of his character. But has either of them ever shown a single good quality?

Thinking about it, I guess I find the mistress of the house more viscerally hateful than the master precisely because he has nothing to prove. He has all the power, so he can relax. He has no need to prove anything to anyone. His power isn't dependent on someone else's affection and goodwill, and no one is threatening his relationships with his family. So he has no cause to demonstrate his power. So far on the show, no one on equal terms with him has crossed him. Even his brother never challenged his way of life. So I find Suzanna more hateful because she is a spiteful asshole, but I wonder how much of that is driven by her relative insecurity.

I'm glad we got a break from Slave-Hunter SVU in this one.

Cato is a really fun character. He reminds me of antagonists in teen dramas. He doesn't try to be likable, which means he can say things the other characters would never say. But they're forced to tolerate his company.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Kirsty

[Kirsty]

Holy shit, best episode yet! Pearly Mae giving herself up to give her daughter a chance was an amazing moment. It's too bad the group lost their reader, though. I hope doram is right and she has taught her adorable daughter her letters.

Ugh, I'm appalled at how good Stabler is at his sick job. And that he has the Clarke Peters character to thank for his skills, Christ.

The situation at the Hawkes home was really good. At first I was all "When Airbnb hosting goes bad". But I totally get how the escaped slaves would want to turn the tables on the first white people they have power over. Can you imagine? And I guess I thought it was a really interesting thing to explore. Like, is it fair to punish these two individual white people for what the white slave owners did to the black men their entire lives? It's wrong but understandable. And then it transpired that John Hawkes actually had been involved in the sale of some people.

Elizabeth was physically useless in the entire storyline. A total loss. The guy threatening their lives handed her a weapon; couldn't she have used it on him? But maybe that's consistent with upper-class white women of the period. At least she has a good attitude, and instead of scaring her off, the incident hardened her resolve to help people.

Poisoning those cuddly doggies was a stroke of genius, well played Rosalie! She and Noah are lovely together. And I really liked his explanation for not leaving Henry or anyone behind.

A whole bunch of characters had their moments in this one, but I must agree that Cato was the hero of the hour. I never saw it coming and his plan was amazing. Goddamn, he made the most of that promotion.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Kirsty

[Kirsty]

My jaw dropped twice during this episode. The show continues to bring the shocks.

Jesus, it's so fucked-up the way Susannah's father raped Pearly-Mae's mother, so Pearly-Mae grew up playing with Susannah, just like Ernestine's children grow up playing with Tom's other, paler children, WTF. And apparently everyone knows about the regular raping, because this is the ordinary way of things.

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Ernestine and Susannah: it was kind of funny how they BOTH had Tom's number.

This! Tom wants to be liked, and they know it. Susannah, on the other hand, doesn't give a damn about slaves' likes or dislikes, as long as they respect her authority over them. Maybe that's the simple answer to why I find her more immediately hateful than him. Well, she got a chance to excel at something in this episode: psychological manipulation. She nailed it *except* she overlooked Ernestine. Or underestimated her.

Cato going "You see something you like, housegirl?" was sexy. But I'm so glad that a woman isn't the source of conflict between Cato and Noah. It's such a boring source of conflict, and this way they have so many other, better reasons to constantly clash.

Cato went from MVP in the last episode to basically killing Zeke in this one. I shouldn't have been surprised but I was shocked. Cato and Ernestine are both fantastically competent, strong-willed, and all-round impressive leaders who are also totally ruthless. Can't you imagine them working in the corporate world in the present day?!

Christ, poor Zeke. First his wife murders their child. Then he loses his wife when she's taken away. He escapes and his supposed ally stabs him in the back. And I'm so sorry that he couldn't take Christopher Meloni's character with him. After this episode, I'm starting to think the slave-hunter's son is destined to kill him. Or at least stop him from killing someone else.

I loved that the trick Stabler introduced himself with in the first episode is the one he tries to use on Rosalie. But I was pretty annoyed that she blabbed their plans to the first white stranger she met! What a dope. At least Sam didn't reveal anything to Tom during their scene; that was stressful viewing. I was afraid that after Ernestine bullied the information out of Sam in the previous episode, Tom would try a softer, subtler approach and be equally successful at getting him to accidentally spill.

Ernestine's scenes with Pearly-Mae were amazing, I loved them: reminiscing about Boo's birth; coaching Pearly-Mae on how to deal with Tom;  her line "I know first-hand how Massah get what he wants"; Pearly-Mae's shining hope and conviction that she could save her child; and that moment when she looks in Ernestine's eyes and realises what Ernestine has done! Total shocker. The stakes are about as high as they can be, but I didn't believe that Ernestine would stoop to murdering a fellow slave.

Second fantastic episode in a row.

I didn't expect the number of runaways would drop so fast. First Sam backs out. Pearly-Mae turns herself in. Zeke is killed on the run. How many will make it?! (No, don't tell me. ;))

Edited August 31, 2016 by Kirsty

[Kirsty]

Stabler the Slavehunter's plotline was a complete waste of my time in this episode. I don't care about him, his wife or his son. And I certainly don't care about his sex-life. He has his shirt off more often than a werewolf in a Twilight movie - what's that about? I don't want to upset any Christopher Meloni fans, but the man is in his mid-fifties and it shows. And clothed or naked, I'm sick of the sight of his character. If he could disappear into a hole in the ground, that would be wonderful.

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Susannah is a beast, where Ernestine is wracked with guilt over Pearly Mae & is driven by will to survive, to live as best she can in her circumstances & most of all, love for her children. I can somewhat see Tom, first arrived & contending with his shrew wife & despicable father-in-law, looking for comfort & to feel powerful all at once in the arms of someone with no choice but to provide it to him. Susannah's Southern belle mask would have dropped fast & Earl would have taken no steps to hide his true self.

Tom the slave-owner is cheating on his wife with one of his slaves. The Reverend in this episode believes that makes the slave the villain. You are making out that the slave-owner's wife is the villain (because if she was nicer he wouldn't have strayed). I think you're both going a million miles out of your own way to absolve the white man, when he is the one with all the power, and on top of that, he's the one doing the cheating.

Speaking of the Reverend, how crazy is it when the man of god owns a slave! And blames Ernestine for having sex with her owner. His brand of religion makes devil-worshipping look benign by contrast. ;) I fear for Ernestine.

The Marshal from One Tree Hill is a real thorn in the side of the abolitionist couple. It does seem like his feelings for Elizabeth are a major reason for his keeping such a personal watch on their property. So I think John and Elizabeth's best strategy would be to set him up with some single ladies! It could give him some other pretty lady to focus on and something better to do with his evenings than creeping outside their windows.

I'm enjoying the journey of the fugitives. Lol at the look on Noah's face at the end when he saw Rosalie on the shore, having saved them. He looked like she had just stepped out of his dreams.

So we're down to four runaways now? I would like if Moses and his little girl Boo showed up again, maybe if the Hawkes couple gave them shelter or something. I guess I would just like the closure because I need that kid to be free!

Edited September 2, 2016 by Kirsty

[Kirsty]

This episode was very good but BRUTAL on the heart. My face still has the look of horror on it. There were so many terrible things happening that they started to make less of an impact as the episode went on because this viewer couldn't deal with any more. But that first shot that hit Henry as he sat by the fire with Rosalie gave me a shock.

I was delighted to see Moses and Boo in the 'previouslys', but it would have been better for everyone if we had never seen them again! Now Moses is dead and Boo is an orphan. And I was appalled that Elizabeth had to prostitute herself to the Marshal to keep a child from slavery, ugghh. (And I won't even be surprised if that creep of a Marshal comes back for the child anyway.)

I'm not a bloodthirsty person but I don't think I've ever watched a show with so many characters on whom I wish a fiery death: the Marshal Kyle; Reverend Fuckface; the slavehunters starting with August; the slaveowners Tom and Susannah; the overseer Bill. And obviously it's the system they uphold that's the problem. If those characters all died in a fire next week, new racists would take their places and everything would carry on as wrong as before. Basically, the war can't come soon enough.

I kind of appreciate their portrayals though. Like, that Marshal is a handsome lawman who tracks down dangerous fugitives. He's usually a heroic character! It's neat to see him as a rapey villain. And it's great to see a villain who looks like a dreamy young man and who probably thinks of himself as noble, honourable, and in love. And as another poster pointed out after a previous episode, it's apparent that slaveowner Tom likes to think of himself as a good man too. When you see how the slavery was normalised, it makes it easier to relate it to things happening today.

Great episode for Sam.

I still have no idea why I'm seeing so much of the slavehunter's life. Asylums were awful in 1857? You don't say. That's not what the show is about, so it doesn't have the time to devote to it to do it well. Maybe I'm missing the point? Unless the point is shirtless manpain. In that case, I've got the message loud and clear. ;)

Edited September 3, 2016 by Kirsty

[Kirsty]

I'm skipping over the latest posts above because I see the dates on them.

So lovely Henry is dead then.

The show totally had me fooled. I was listening closely to Tom's speech, trying to figure out which path he would take, and what the future held for these characters and this place given that the future means war. And when the camera pulled back to show the lynching, it seemed like something from a bad dream. Like it was too grotesque to be real. I'm glad the camera pulled in on Sam's face because that made it real.

I'm not American so my familiarity with US history is pretty iffy. Is a public lynching to launch a political career realistic for the antebellum South? Or should I put it down to dramatic license? It seems more like something the villains would do in YA dystopian fiction. And also, is the churchman's aggressively pro-slavery position realistic? Did the churches side with the slave-owners at the time? I'm accustomed to churches taking against women (so the Reverend's contempt for Ernestine didn't surprise me much), but I've never seen this before. The Reverend was pushing Tom to maim a man and cheering when he killed him instead. I guess organised religions often side with the rich and powerful but he was so clearly an agent of evil he might as well have had horns and a tail.

I like how the the words of the song make sense now.

I enjoyed Rosalie and Cato's afternoon theatre performance! They looked great and their fake smiles at the front door made me laugh. It was nice to see some warmer, lighter moments from Cato especially. And I admired Rosalie's strength, her ability to stand up to Cato and to think on her feet in order to save Noah.

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Watching Ernestine try to make the best out of a situation where her son was about to be fucking maimed just reminded me of how strong my foremothers were forced to be. My God. Can you imagine?

My favourite scene in the episode was Ernestine alone with Sam, especially her saying "We can survive *anything*" and his reply "That's what I'm afraid of, Mama". Great actors both, and my god, was that powerful. The idea of her asking to be the one to maim her son so it would be done properly was awe-inspiring. I believed it would be done too, so I averted my eyes once he was on the table.

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Oh Sam. RIP. I'll miss him. Johnny Ray Gill was so good in the role.

Yeah, I totally bought him as someone of that time period. And Sam wasn't ruthless like Ernestine or Cato. He wasn't the smartest or the strongest or the coolest. I loved that he threw up that time after Tom's visit to the shop when Noah was in the rafters. You could see that Sam wanted to please people. It's so tragic that he took Tom at his word and believed that he could save enough money to purchase freedom for himself or even for his little brother. That's the kind of hope that could sustain you, so it makes sense that he ran once that was lost. And he got caught when he took a chance on another white man.

The show is getting harder to watch and the viewing more stressful. That ending was ghastly. And so sad. This show is desperately sad. I'm glad these seasons aren't full-length twenty-two episode affairs, because I don't think I'd be up to it.

Edited to say: Thank you for replying. And saoirse, that transcript makes for a sobering read.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Kirsty

[AntFTW]

8 hours ago, Kirsty said:

And also, is the churchman's aggressively pro-slavery position realistic? Did the churches side with the slave-owners at the time? I'm accustomed to churches taking against women (so the Reverend's contempt for Ernestine didn't surprise me much), but I've never seen this before. The Reverend was pushing Tom to maim a man and cheering when he killed him instead. I guess organised religions often side with the rich and powerful but he was so clearly an agent of evil he might as well have had horns and a tail.

 

The answers to these questions are very gray. Many people (clergymen included), especially in the Southern US, thought it was their right given by God to own slaves. People, at that time, used Christianity (using Christianity in the broader sense) to justify slavery, prejudices, and racism (and many people still do today). Adherents to the same religion also went in an opposite direction; they opposed slavery; helped many gain their freedom; and helped abolish slavery.

Edited September 4, 2016 by AntFTW

[formerlyfreedom]

@Kirsty, this recent story on NPR can tell you a little bit about what you're asking. I wish I could give you different answers to your questions, but sadly, we are a flawed people. 
 

[Kirsty]

Yay! Rosalie, Noah and Boo have all made it to the Hawkes house! The people in that house could all be dead or in chains by the end of the next episode, so I'm going to enjoy this brief, solitary moment of victory on a show where terrible things happen every week.

Once Cato made his speech about his family, it was clear he was about to get caught or killed. But I loved the way it happened. First, how cool was Cato shooting it out, especially upside-down? And then if Cato had been shot dead or simply more seriously wounded, it wouldn't have been a choice for Noah. As it was, Noah had to decide if he was willing to leave Cato behind to save himself. Horrible dilemma! And Cato understood perfectly and laughed! If I was Noah, I'd be haunted by Cato mocking me for being just like him in the end. To be clear, I don't think Cato and Noah are the same at all. But I imagine that if any of the Macon Seven make it to freedom they might well feel survivors' guilt after this journey. In any case, this show has made an Alano Miller fan of me; he's so charismatic.

It was good that we saw a slave auction because it made for uncomfortable viewing. The bells on Clyde were even worse, WTF, you couldn't make this stuff up.

I've never been a Marc Blucas fan, but he's doing fine here and I think it's the most I've ever liked him. I thought his reaction to Elizabeth's revelation was really convincing. Her reaction was more surprising. I expected her to be ashamed but good for her. I must say, I was delighted when she clocked Kyle early in the episode. Shit has got really dicey really fast for the abolitionists.

The Devil's Snare was a good idea from Rosalie but I didn't like it as a choice for the show. The hallucinations undermined the reality of the other scenes for me. And the extended August hallucination was like comic relief. Of course he hallucinates that he's shirtless and an attractive lady is feeling up those moobs. What else would it be? ;) What a ridiculous character.

August's story is the one element of the show that I would jettison. So he was in debt and now he's in the money? Who cares? It's weak-ass storytelling, and it doesn't help when someone on the writing team seems to have "I ♥ Stabler" scribbled on their jotter. There's just way too much about his boring ass, and if they've failed to make me care by now then it's never going to happen. It's a failure. And that Moby Dick "hunter who becomes obsessed with the hunt" thing was far too on the nose. Christ, I hope August isn't back for season two.