S03.E14: He Made A Terrible Mistake / S03.E15: Wes

[Coxfires]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

I don't think pinning Rebecca's murder on Wes implies Annalise knows who really did it. It just means she thinks she can sell Denver on the idea that Wes did it, so Denver will stop trying to pin it on her and the rest of her crew. I can't remember if she knows Bonnie did it, but whether she does or not, I don't think using Wes as a scapegoat depends on her knowing, nor that it implies to the others that she does know.

Yes, she knows, they had an argument about it with Annalise telling Bonnie "now that you've done it, you are a monster" or something like that.

[Aquarius97]

41 minutes ago, Coxfires said:

Yes, she knows, they had an argument about it with Annalise telling Bonnie "now that you've done it, you are a monster" or something like that.

AK was the first to discover that Bonnie was Rebecca's murderer. In 2x01, when AK and Frank were discussing the possibility that Laurel did it, Annalise said sth like "You've got the wrong girl", and she headed straight to Bonnie's place. In that moment, we see the scene with Bonnie killing Rebecca

Edited February 26, 2017 by Aquarius97

[renatae]

On 02/23/2017 at 10:09 PM, nutty1 said:

I am wondering if Annalise was so distraught, she felt like she was talking about her son that she lost. I still don't think Wes was her son. 

I think she felt so close to him that in the end he was, in her heart, truly her son, same way an adoptive parent feels. I figured when we didn't know who died, it had to be Wes, because he was the only one she would mourn like that.

[dgpolo]

Way back when, did Laurel go to Frank's family for ? Thanksgiving? or did he go to hers? I seem to remember something like that. I'm still thinking that maybe Laurel was the primary target for her father.

Why did the gas take so long to produce an explosion? it seemed to wait until Laurel got there. Why was Annalise's house chosen as the site of the 'hit'? Surely Wes' apartment would have been a better venue if he was the primary target?

Wasn't Michaela a virgin just a few months ago? She argued with Annalise when A wanted her to seduce Caleb? I agree with whoever above stated she was a poor choice for a seduction unless they thought Charles would be more attracted to a 'black' girl.

I know this an extremely unpopular opinion and I get flak for it but until I see -with my eyes- exactly what happened between the time the K5 left Sam on the floor of the house bleeding out and when Wes came back to find Annalise sitting at the desk, in the dark, I will believe there is a chance that Annalise finished Sam off. At the very least I think the writers are leaving that open until other storylines play out. So for me, Annalise throwing Wes under the bus is covering her own ass.

[wanderingstar]

Quote

While it's true that it's a little strange that they are all acting like he was the love of her life in only such a short span of time, it makes sense to a point as well, because they were in such an early part of their romance that all their emotions were heightened. Put those two tings together and I actually buy Laurel's enormous anger and grief about Wes' death.

IA with this. I think a big part of Laurel's grief is that Wes was taken from her before they had a chance to really build something. That sense of...incompleteness, of what might have been, must add to her pain over losing him. 

[secnarf]

29 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

Way back when, did Laurel go to Frank's family for ? Thanksgiving? or did he go to hers? I seem to remember something like that. I'm still thinking that maybe Laurel was the primary target for her father.

Why did the gas take so long to produce an explosion? it seemed to wait until Laurel got there. Why was Annalise's house chosen as the site of the 'hit'? Surely Wes' apartment would have been a better venue if he was the primary target?

Wasn't Michaela a virgin just a few months ago? She argued with Annalise when A wanted her to seduce Caleb? I agree with whoever above stated she was a poor choice for a seduction unless they thought Charles would be more attracted to a 'black' girl.

Laurel went to Frank's family's house. I think it was just a random dinner - I didn't get the sense that it was any sort of holiday. It was after Laurel and Frank had argued about her not really knowing him and him not letting her in, or something along those lines. Why would Laurel's father have ordered a hit on her?

There would be any number of other casualties if Wes' apartment exploded, and the gas lines are probably in the basement and far from his actual apartment. My guess is the gas had to build up to a critical level before it ignited. It wasn't "waiting" for Laurel, she just happened to be there at the right (wrong?) time.

Michaela was not a virgin - I think you're remembering the conversations about how she had never had an orgasm, but she had had sex before. She argued with Annalise over seducing Caleb but that was more on principle.

[dgpolo]

3 minutes ago, secnarf said:

There would be any number of other casualties if Wes' apartment exploded, and the gas lines are probably in the basement and far from his actual apartment. My guess is the gas had to build up to a critical level before it ignited. It wasn't "waiting" for Laurel, she just happened to be there at the right (wrong?) time.

Why would he have to explode the apartment? just kill Wes and leave. Not what I meant, at all! Private place, private murder.

Why would anyone do anything on this show? Laurel's father forced her to sign papers if he felt she was a threat I can see him getting rid of her, when he didn't pay her ransom she could have been killed right then.

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, dgpolo said:

Why would he have to explode the apartment? just kill Wes and leave. Not what I meant, at all! Private place, private murder.

It seems like Dominic had other plans to kill Wes. He was in the middle of drugging him, so I'm not even sure if his intent in that particular moment was to kill Wes. It seemed like Dominic was going to take Wes somewhere else to kill him. Now, we're obviously going to get the answers as to why Laurel's father sent Dominic to Annalise's house to kill Wes. Whether it was because Dominic was also following Wes and waited for the right opportunity, or Wes wasn't the initial target at all. Dominic did tell Laurel's father that things got messy. Whether it was how he had to kill Wes, how Connor and Laurel got in the way of the kill, or what have you, Dominic did wait for the house to explode. In fact, he waited almost two hours to make sure the house exploded, which seems to say that this particular kill was not planned out in the sense that he hadn't meant to suffocate Wes and then have the house explode to make it seem like an accident.

Obviously, since Laurel's father asked Dominic if "he" was dead, he was meant to die. But I agree that they could easily twist things to have the target not Wes but Frank. 

Also, I'm definitely wondering about the future interaction with Dominic/Connor. We don't know if Connor actually saw Dominic, but Dominic certainly saw Connor so I'm sure they will have scenes in the next season. 

[Milaxx]

 My guess is the drug was to knock him out and make him more pliant. He killed him in the  vestibule hallway area. In the midst of the fight Wes hit Dominic with the vodka bottle AK had left in front of the fireplace. Then afterwards he dragged him down to the basement and gut the gas line.  He did say things got messy so I'm not sure if framing AK was the intent or if that was a favor to Denver for helping them set this up. I do get the impression that Dever has been helping them for some time. Perhaps just in terms of keeping tabs on Wes.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Wasn't Michaela a virgin just a few months ago? She argued with Annalise when A wanted her to seduce Caleb? I agree with whoever above stated she was a poor choice for a seduction unless they thought Charles would be more attracted to a 'black' girl.

Michaela was not a virgin, she just hadn't experienced an orgasm.  Michaela is good at morphing into pretty much any character, she pretty much says so about herself in season two I think when talking to Connor. She tells him that she can reinvent herself if she needs to, she's done it before. The actress has said interviews that Michaela is pretty polished even though she comes from the wrong side of the tracks, she can become what she needs to become for the circumstances.

She's got serious game when it comes to flirting, and is quite confident sitting at a bar and trying to pick up guys, they showed it at least twice that I can remember. First there was time she was at the bar and this guy comes up,it's right before she decides to answer the text from Eggs.  Anyway, they start talking but come to find out he's gay too, so she tells him to buzz off. But she was going in for the pick up and he said he'd be all over her if he weren't gay. Then there was time that she and Laurel were at the bar, just before Laurel gives her, her ring back, and she's flirting and making eyes at some guys across the room and telling Laurel that what she wants is to take home one of those rich bankers over there. I basically think that the scene with Mahoney was to show that, that's her element, or it was, picking up rich guys at bars, but in that moment she realized that, this shit isn't what I want anymore, I love Asher and I'm not even going to do this even for pretend.  Heck the this season started with her in another freakdom dress because she was in a bar doing her thing again and Anna had to go pick her up for drunk driving. Not having and orgasm has nothing to do with the game she's got going when it comes to picking up guys at bars.

But this is what I'm talking about with Nowalk and the lack of balance in screen time that he's given to story lines/character development/back story. I happen to remember these scenes because I'm a fan of the character, so I watch her scenes pretty closely, because I'm more interested in figuring this character out. 

Nowalk comes from the school of Shondaland where they have a habit of giving you snippets of shit especially for particular characters that they don't care as much about IMO. Then when a character does something you'd be hard press to find any justification for, it's because you can't remember the little scene or two that they gave you trying to set up the explanation for said pattern of behavior. They simply don't manage time well on Shondaland shows, they don't do follow up in a timely manner, they put a little out in one season then it may not show up again until way into or the end of the next season. It's just bad writing.For crying out loud, daytime soaps do a better job of following up and rotating time given to story lines.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[maddie965]

I want Connor and Oliver to marry and have tons of babies and come live in Brazil. Please? Michaela and Asher can come too. Asher would love Rio. 

Frank and Bonnie should go to Alaska. The cold weather would soothe their frozen hearts. 

Annalise should go to NY to be with Eve, her only true love.As for Nate, he should become a supermodel and make a fortune doing naked pictures. Annalise and Eve would buy all the magazines and have crazy sex while loking at the hot pics. 

And Laurel should die a painful death, so she could be reunited with the guy she loved for 10 seconds.

THE END

[Keepitmoving]

28 minutes ago, iheartET said:

LOL! Yep Charles looked the SAME exact way he did 10 years ago.

That was VERY cold what Ana did, even though he is dead. But it would have been A LOT worse if he was alive and she did that!

I know. I'm worried Michaela is going to be in some trouble with Charles.

Yeah, because if he's really interested, it's not like he doesn't have the means to figure out who she is. I could have sworn before he got into that cab he spotted her with Asher and the other two so, what gives? No way he couldn't smell that it was a set up after that.

And I don't know what was up with that ominous music that was playing to close out that bar scene either, it sounded spooky to me, like spooky for the future.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[secnarf]

51 minutes ago, iheartET said:

It happened when Frank called Denver and said something like : You said you set me free or give me 6, 7 or 8 years if I squealed on Ana.

Oh ok. Thank you for telling me and having enough guts to do so unlike a few people on here.

Frank never actually took the deal. I interpreted that all as part of their plan, not Frank turning on them.

[Keepitmoving]

Do we know for sure that Charles raped Wes's mother? Did she ever say that to Anna in the flashbacks or did I just think that was what was implied. Well at the time I thought it was Wallace who was messing around with the help,  and that it was rape because she was afraid that he would send her back to Haiti if she didn't sleep with him. Did I make any of that up by reading between the lines. I mean she was afraid of immigration right? And she was a witness in a murder right? The murder that Charles was accused of right? I can't remember exactly, because Anna was the Mahoney's attorney. But did she suddenly turn on them when she found out about or thought she knew something about Wallace messing around with Christophe's mother? Who was Christophe's mother set to testify on behalf of? It was Charles right? Maybe the family didn't want her to testify for fear that if she got up on that stand somehow it would be revealed that she had a child with Charles.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

2 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

Do we know for sure that Charles raped Wes's mother? Did she ever say that to Anna in the flashbacks or did I just think that was what was implied. Well at the time I thought it was Wallace who was messing around with the help,  and that it was rape because she was afraid that he would send her back to Haiti if she didn't sleep with him. Did I make any of that up by reading between the lines. I mean she was afraid of immigration right? And she was a witness in a murder right? The murder that Charles was accused of right? I can't remember exactly, because Anna was the Mahoney's attorney. But did she suddenly turn on them when she found out about or thought she knew something about Wallace messing around with Christophe's mother? Who was Christophe's mother set to testify on behalf of? It was Charles right? Maybe the family didn't want her to testify for fear that if she got up on that stand somehow it would be revealed that she had a child with Charles.

No the show never explicitly said Wallace raped Rose. It was an assumption that AK made based on how fearful of the Mahoney's she seem to be and how they appeared to be low key threatening Christophe if Rose did not cooperate. I remember thinking by the way that Sylvia behaved there was something fishy about Christophe's parentage. Wallace raping Rose seemed to gel at the time. I have to rethink that now that the show has decided that Charles is the father. They definitely did use ICE as a threat. Eve even pretended to be a lawyer with ICE to get Rose to cooperate. That now makes me question if she was in the country legally or not. The family wanted Rose to testify as an alibi for Charles. He was accused of killing his fiance. Rose was to say he was in the office working late when that murder occurred.

2 hours ago, iheartET said:

If a child has one parent that is black, then they are half black and half of the other race. They are biracial. Despite what MOST people in society CHOOSE to believe.  How can a child that has 2 black parents and a another child who has ONE parent that is black and the OTHER parent white, be both considered 100 % black?!!! That doesn't make a any sense.

But nonetheless, I get your point regarding your last statement.

IIRC the question was regarding AK's statement referring  to Wes as "that black child".  There is such a thing as the one drop rule. In fact for years this was considered law. While yes, technically the child is biracial, even now many do indeed have to choose an identity, Out 44th president is considered the first Black president despite being biracial. In context of the show AK was commenting about how this richie rich family might be perceived by having a child that was anything other than lily white as themselves. There are plenty of things to nitpick and quibble with on this show, but AK calling baby Christophe/Wes in that context "Black" isn't one of them.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Milaxx

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

No the show never explicitly said Wallace raped Rose. It was an assumption that AK made based on how fearful of the Mahoney's she seem to be and how they appeared to be low key threatening Christophe if Rose did not cooperate. I remember thinking by the way that Sylvia behaved there was something fishy about Christophe's parentage. Wallace raping Rose seemed to gel at the time. I have to rethink that now that the show has decided that Charles is the father. They definitely did use ICE as a threat. Eve even pretended to be a lawyer with ICE to get Rose to cooperate. That now makes me question if she was in the country legally or not. The family wanted Rose to testify as an alibi for Charles. He was accused of killing his fiance. Rose was to say he was in the office working late when that murder occurred.

Thanks for reviewing those details. So we don't know for sure if Charles is a rapist  or a murderer, because we don't know if he actually did kill his girlfriend even if he was with her at some point in time on the day/night she was murdered. We sure know that he didn't kill his father and that it was Frank, as Frank admitted it to Wes.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[project90]

I could be stretching but Laurel was just about to shoot Charles Mahoney when Dominic pops up and stop her maybe Dominic and Laurel dad are working with the Mahoney's

 

Also like the theory maybe Laurel was the one they meant to kill in the fire. And when Dominic said things got messy  he talking and Wes being involved he kind of just got in the way. Could be something do with the business Laurel dad put in her name. But again I'm probably stretching

 

but what I found weird was the doctor telling Laurel she can have an abortion up to 24 weeks. that feel really far that over half way through the pregnancy you can find out the sex of the baby at 20 week. I'm from Australia and can get one in first 8 weeks or something here. Wonder what they going do with the pregnancy a baby doesn't  really fit int this show.

 

Also any idea how long has passed from first episode to season 3 final? Don't think a season is a whole year on this show cause think they Wes still talking about being a first year law student in season 2.  And pretty sure season 2 starts like a week after Rebecca's death

Edited February 27, 2017 by project90

[Milaxx]

On 2/24/2017 at 5:00 PM, juliet73 said:

I was first trained in CPR back in the early 80's and I have renewed my certification throughout the years to the present day. Each instructor has always mentioned breaking a bone. And if the victim survives, you are covered under the Good Samaritan Law so you cannot be held responsible for anything you did to save their life (broken bones, etc). I'm assuming they mention the broken bones so people don't do what Connor did. 

I'm pretty sure Connor's fear about him killing Wes was more about what AK and the K4 would think rather than a legal issue. I think Connor knew how douche-y he often was towards Wes and he appeared more concerned with them thinking he killed Wes.

On 2/24/2017 at 11:38 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

So everybody has to fold in order to avoid mutually assured destruction? Plus Frank the serial killer walks? I am not satisfied with this resolution.

I bet it has something to do with money laundering or illegal payoffs. If she wasn't kidnapped then there'd be no reason for her father to be paying money masquerading as ransom.

The only people that knew Frank killed Lila or Wallace are AK and the K5. He confessed to Wes's murder which he did not commit, so yes he walks.

On 2/24/2017 at 5:44 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

That said, I don't believe her pain gives her the right to do and say whatever she wants. At some point, I want someone - Michaela, Annalise, whoever - to state this and have her actually absorb it. Her grief is not a blank check to be a raging asshole.

THIS^^^

[Milaxx]

21 minutes ago, project90 said:

I could be stretching but Laurel was just about to shoot Charles Mahoney when Dominic pops up and stop her maybe Dominic and Laurel dad are working with the Mahoney's

 

Also like the theory maybe Laurel was the one they meant to kill in the fire. And when Dominic said things got messy  he talking and Wes being involved he kind of just got in the way. Could be something do with the business Laurel dad put in her name. But again I'm probably stretching

 

but what I found weird was the doctor telling Laurel she can have an abortion up to 24 weeks. that feel really far that over half way through the pregnancy you can find out the sex of the baby at 20 week. I'm from Australia and can get one in first 8 weeks or something here. Wonder what they going do with the pregnancy a baby doesn't  really fit int this show.

 

Also any idea how long has passed from first episode to season 3 final? Don't think a season is a whole year on this show cause think they Wes still talking about being a first year law student in season 2.  And pretty sure season 2 starts like a week after Rebecca's death

Yes Laurel was about to shoot Charles.  

In certain states in the US it is possible to have a late term abortion. The cut off varies as to what defines late term but it's usually between 19 - 24 weeks. 

As for time frames, I think this was discussed before so other posters may have better dates. To the best of my recollection they are in the first semester of their 2nd year. The shoe premiered at the start if the first semester (September 2014) , currently we are late November 2015 show time.

[secnarf]

10 minutes ago, project90 said:

but what I found weird was the doctor telling Laurel she can have an abortion up to 24 weeks. that feel really far that over half way through the pregnancy you can find out the sex of the baby at 20 week. I'm from Australia and can get one in first 8 weeks or something here. Wonder what they going do with the pregnancy a baby doesn't  really fit int this show

I think it differs from state to state. I'm from Canada and we technically have no legal restrictions on when abortions can be performed, but it's pretty much impossible to find a doctor to do one past 20 weeks - even that is pushing it. 8 weeks seems really early though - not a lot of time to make a decision and make arrangements, since you may not know you're pregnant for 4-6 weeks (or longer in some cases).

I feel like Laurel will have an abortion or miscarriage. I can't see a baby fitting in to this show unless it is the next murder victim, which I really don't want to see happen.

4 minutes ago, iheartET said:

I can discuss WHATEVER I would like about the show. And my opinion REMAINS about biracial people INCUDING our 44th president!

No need to overreact. Nobody is trying to change your opinion, but your opinion doesn't negate that of many others. The fact is that many people consider biracial children who are half black and half white to be black, partially because you can't always tell by appearance if a person would identify as biracial or black. The example was given that Obama is frequently referred to as the first black president. You can disagree with that all you want, but you can't deny that he is called that all the time. Besides, race is such a messy construct and there has been so much mixing (historically with white slave owners raping black slaves) that most people who are considered "black" or "white" actually have a mix in their ancestry. But this is really beside the point.

FWIW, my interpretation of that comment was that Annalise thought the Mahoneys, who were earlier portrayed to be racist, would view Wes as a black child (and therefore "inferior") regardless of him having a white father. I also think Annalise was calling out Sylvia on her and her husband's racism, while ten years ago she had let it slide.

[project90]

Fact Annalise called Sam sister kinda just got forgotten rather fast

 

I'd like to see Sam first wife at some point one Sam cheated on with Annalise

[Chicago Redshirt]

17 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

The only people that knew Frank killed Lila or Wallace are AK and the K5. He confessed to Wes's murder which he did not commit, so yes he walks.

To nitpick, Frank is the only living person (as far as we know) who knows he killed Lila. Sam recruited Frank to kill Lila based on Frank "owing" him. With Sam dead, as far as we know, everyone is satisfied with the notion that Sam killed Lila.

[Milaxx]

Frank told Laurel who drunkenly told AK thinking she had ordered him to do it. Frank also told Bonnie. It's part of the very convoluted reason why Frank took Wes to NYC and then killed Wallace. His killing Wallace was sort of a mea culpa to AK.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Milaxx

[project90]

4 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

To nitpick, Frank is the only living person (as far as we know) who knows he killed Lila. Sam recruited Frank to kill Lila based on Frank "owing" him. With Sam dead, as far as we know, everyone is satisfied with the notion that Sam killed Lila.

I'm confused and probably just misreading Bonnie,Annalise,Laurel all know Frank killed Lila

 

aand why on who knows who killed who. Annalise and Frank only one who know Bonnie killed Rebeca right

[Milaxx]

6 minutes ago, project90 said:

Fact Annalise called Sam sister kinda just got forgotten rather fast

 

I'd like to see Sam first wife at some point one Sam cheated on with Annalise

I don't think it was forgotten. I think it was just put out there as a red herring.  In reality we all know the actress who plays Hannah has a commitment to another series. Anything other than an off screen phone call is pretty much impossible unless they recast. Show wise I think it was just put in there to show AK's state of mind that evening. She was upset and drunk dialing people. Didn't she also drunk dial Nate before going to Bonnie's house?

3 minutes ago, project90 said:

Annalise and Frank only one who know Bonnie killed Rebeca right

Yes although my guess is the K5 suspect Frank killed Lila. I would like to have them discover that it was Bonnie who killed her next season.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 minutes ago, project90 said:

I'm confused and probably just misreading Bonnie,Annalise,Laurel all know Frank killed Lila

 

aand why on who knows who killed who. Annalise and Frank only one who know Bonnie killed Rebeca right

The last scene re: who killed Lila involving AK, Bonnie or the K5 that I can remember was AK trying to console Wes with the notion that Sam killed Lila while they were sitting on a stairway. 

If there ever was a scene where Frank confessed he killed Lila, I don't remember it. I think he came close to some sort of confession to Laurel, but I don't think he ever admitted it. 

I would love to see it come out to AK that Frank set all this in motion by killing Lila. She will probably rip his throat out with her teeth.

AK and Frank are the only ones who know that Bonnie killed Rebecca. Up till recently, the rest of the K5 did not even know that Rebecca was dead (or care much). 

I will be very curious as to how they will react to the news that Rebecca is dead, and that Wes was named as the prime suspect. I bet Connor will believe that Wes did in fact kill Rebecca. I don't think Laurel will. Michaela and Asher might be on the fence.

[project90]

35 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The last scene re: who killed Lila involving AK, Bonnie or the K5 that I can remember was AK trying to console Wes with the notion that Sam killed Lila while they were sitting on a stairway. 

If there ever was a scene where Frank confessed he killed Lila, I don't remember it. I think he came close to some sort of confession to Laurel, but I don't think he ever admitted it. 

I would love to see it come out to AK that Frank set all this in motion by killing Lila. She will probably rip his throat out with her teeth.

AK and Frank are the only ones who know that Bonnie killed Rebecca. Up till recently, the rest of the K5 did not even know that Rebecca was dead (or care much). 

I will be very curious as to how they will react to the news that Rebecca is dead, and that Wes was named as the prime suspect. I bet Connor will believe that Wes did in fact kill Rebecca. I don't think Laurel will. Michaela and Asher might be on the fence.

Frank told Laurel at end of S02E11 "She Hates Us" he killed Lila  she assume Annalise told him to kill her (pretty much being what broke them up)

 

Bonnie bug the basement herd Laurel  and Frank talking about him killing Lila in 02E13 "Something Bad Happened"

 

than Laurel drunkenly told Annalise about Frank Killing Lila (still thinking Annalise order him to do it) at the end s02e14 "There's My Baby"

 

than s02e15 "Ann Mae" is when Frank went away cause Annalise  knew Frank killed Lila on Sam orders and that he had part in the crash that killed her son

Edited February 27, 2017 by project90

[Layne]

31 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I would love to see it come out to AK that Frank set all this in motion by killing Lila. She will probably rip his throat out with her teeth.

Did you watch the second half of season 2?

[Milaxx]

Frank confesses he killed Lila.

Bonnie over hears, Laurel tells AK Frank killed Lila.

[Chicago Redshirt]

My bad.

[Milaxx]

51 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I would love to see it come out to AK that Frank set all this in motion by killing Lila. She will probably rip his throat out with her teeth.

That's why AK was so mad at Frank that she sent a hitman after him and then when he came back to town she told him to kill himself. Most of what Frank has done this season as well as the reason why he came back to AK and knelt at her feet was Frank trying to apologise to AK.

[wanderingstar]

So, did we ever learn the identity of the anonymous source whosee tip led to Annalise's arrest? Or was the tip-off to the police all orchestrated by Laurel's dad?

[Milaxx]

12 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

So, did we ever learn the identity of the anonymous source whosee tip led to Annalise's arrest? Or was the tip-off to the police all orchestrated by Laurel's dad?

I don't think so. Although now that we know Denver is dirty, it's possible there was no anonymous NYC tip or Dominic could have called him.

[jhlipton]

3 hours ago, iheartET said:

How can a child that has 2 black parents and a another child who has ONE parent that is black and the OTHER parent white, be both considered 100 % black?!!! That doesn't make a any sense.

2 hours ago, Milaxx said:

There is such a thing as the one drop rule. In fact for years this was considered law.

There's also the "paper bag test".

 

2 hours ago, secnarf said:

Nobody is trying to change your opinion, but your opinion doesn't negate that of many others. The fact is that many people consider biracial children who are half black and half white to be black, partially because you can't always tell by appearance if a person would identify as biracial or black. The example was given that Obama is frequently referred to as the first black president. You can disagree with that all you want, but you can't deny that he is called that all the time. Besides, race is such a messy construct and there has been so much mixing (historically with white slave owners raping black slaves) that most people who are considered "black" or "white" actually have a mix in their ancestry. But this is really beside the point.

Race is purely and simply a societal construct for "Othering".  There is no real biological basis for race (melanin distribution is weird and somewhat random, varying color distributions across families and even across people -- hence freckles and piebaldism).  But it is, alas, a very effective tool for Othering.

[Keepitmoving]

To quote/paraphrase Wendy Williams, if Wes got stopped by the cops on the 405 or any other freeway, he'd be black, LOL.  That's how it is and we black folk know it, doesn't make it right, but it's reality and it has be acknowledge for survival.

Of course the 44th president is the first biracial president,  and any person who's trying NOT to be ignorant wouldn't ignore his Caucasian mother. I was pleased to see his wife Michelle call him that when referring to him in her speeches during the election season. Every time, she used the word biracial when speaking about him. I don't who else noticed it, but I did. But I know that Michelle Obama from Chicago, knows that he's got drops of African ancestry in there so...if he got stopped on the damn 405...he's a black man.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[helenamonster]

On 2/25/2017 at 4:50 PM, doram said:

Rose looked incongruously young to be the mother of a 12 year old. It's likely that she was a teenager when she was raped and impregnated. 

To be honest, I am really, really awful at pinpointing someone's age. A 60-year-old person could tell me they were 40 and I'd shrug and accept it. And vice versa.

The actress who plays Rose (Kelsey Scott) does not have her age listed on her IMDb page, but she looks younger in her headshots than she did on the show, imo.

I also just don't have a problem with Charles not looking like he's aged 10 years. This show never did much to signal age changes of other adult characters besides slapping a wig on them. Good actors like Viola and Liza make me believe they're 10 years younger through their mannerisms and vocal inflections. Charles has said all of, what, five words in the whole time he's been on the show? Just not enough opportunity in his acting for him to imply aging. It's just easy for me to suspend disbelief on that front (please refer to my aforementioned age guessing issue).

13 hours ago, doram said:

Well, they were best friends. Their relationship existed, in one form or the other, as close for over a year. It seems that people are defining the length of the Wes/Laurel relationship from when they broke up with their previous partners and started having literal sex but relationships and emotions don't work that way. People do fall in love without ever having sex or being able to have sex with the person they're in love with. People do fall in love or stay in love with someone else even when they're in relationships with other people.

And "romantic" love aside, there's also the love of friendship.

(In this show, at least, there are several efforts to show us that Michaela regards her relationship with Connor more important than her relationship with Asher (at least until very recently), but that's not supposed to mean that she's in love with Connor, is it?)

God, yes, this. I don't know why the length of time Laurel was fucking Wes should determine how much she's allowed to mourn him. Even if they weren't in a relationship and she wasn't pregnant with his child, isn't she allowed to mourn her friend?  And it's not like Wes just died in a car accident. He was brutally murdered, and she came very close to dying right next to him.

She is 100% being an asshole about the whole thing, but if discussing this show has taught us all anything, it's that all of these characters are assholes and we're all gonna have our favorite one no matter how problematic until the show ends or we give up in frustration.

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, helenamonster said:

The actress who plays Rose (Kelsey Scott) does not have her age listed on her IMDb page, but she looks younger in her headshots than she did on the show, imo.

I think she's got that "Good Black don't crack" skin working in her favor. As a child actress she was on the Robert Guillaume Show in 1989 playing his daughter. The few pictures I can find make her appear to be between 10 - 12 years old. So that means she was possibly born in the late 70's. You can see her in the opening credits.  .40 mark. 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Milaxx

[possibilities]

1 hour ago, helenamonster said:

if discussing this show has taught us all anything, it's that all of these characters are assholes and we're all gonna have our favorite one no matter how problematic until the show ends or we give up in frustration.

It's funny because it's true.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

The only people that knew Frank killed Lila or Wallace are AK and the K5. He confessed to Wes's murder which he did not commit, so yes he walks.

Yes, I understand that's the situation given the facts as they currently exist. What continues to annoy me is that Frank suffers no real consequences for having killed two people (three if you count Annalise's baby). So he got shunned by AK and spent a few weeks in jail. Boo hoo. I need for him to end up like Wes except with a lot more pain and torture beforehand. Loathe that guy.

[LydiaMoon1]

On 2/25/2017 at 1:48 PM, nosleepforme said:

I don't understand why some people still cling to the theory that Wes might be Annalise's son. Nothing in the show ever indicated anything like that (especially since they revealed his backstory) and there was really no other reading to the scene of Annalise saying he was a son to her than her thinking of him as a surrogate son. Sometimes I'm reading this board and think some people are not really paying attention when they are watching the show.

 

As for Charles Mahoney, people seem to forget that while the actor playing him might be really young, he's playing an older version of his character in the present time line. He was first introduced in flashbacks. Around the time Wes is  about 10, he's about 30 and then when Wes is 24/25, he is actually 44/45. Age-wise it fits. Maybe they should have hired another actor for Charles in the present time line to make clear that he is older, but I don't think they knew all along that he was going to be Wes' father and if they did, they probably kept him so that it would be more of a surprise for the audience.

I totally agree, especially regarding Charles Mahoney.  It was always obvious to me that, in the present, CM is in his 40's (and he looks like it to me).  I always thought he was Wes' father, even though for many the timeline got obscured because of all the flashbacks.  I recognized that Charles and Rose were around the same age, and I was honestly shocked when they revealed Wallace as Wes' dad.  That's why Sylvia's revelation that Wes was actually her grandson didn't surprise me at all.

Something that always did confuse me though, was how rapidly the show had Laurel switch her affections from Frank to Wes.  Forgive me if somebody upthread has already mentioned this, but I'm wondering if her Dad actually meant to kill Frank instead of Wes?  Did Laurel's Dad even know she was no longer seeing the guy she asked him to help her find?  I tried going back to first half of the season to review that episode, but it was no longer available.  I'm wondering if they located Frank via his paper trail rather than his description and if they simply assumed that the guy she was currently seeing was the same guy she asked her father to find?  It just seems sadly fitting that Wes' murder could end up being a tragic case of mistaken identity.  

[Milaxx]

3 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Yes, I understand that's the situation given the facts as they currently exist. What continues to annoy me is that Frank suffers no real consequences for having killed two people (three if you count Annalise's baby). So he got shunned by AK and spent a few weeks in jail. Boo hoo. I need for him to end up like Wes except with a lot more pain and torture beforehand. Loathe that guy.

Like @HELENAMONSTER  said earlier:

Quote

if discussing this show has taught us all anything, it's that all of these characters are assholes and we're all gonna have our favorite one no matter how problematic until the show ends or we give up in frustration

They are have all been involved in murder and/or the coverup of a murder. Even our dearly departed Wes.

[jvr]

15 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I would love to see it come out to AK that Frank set all this in motion by killing Lila. 

Outside of the corrections above regarding who knows what regarding Frank and Lilla, it's more like Sam set all this in motion! Besides being highly unethical and sleeping with a patient (Anna)...it started by cheating on another wife, getting a student of his pregnant, and then making Frank kill her. Frank was just a tool, if not him, he would have gotten someone else.

I wish Sam's death scene was more satisfying and not the bumbling accident/self defense by the K5. Regarding someone speculating that Anna actually killed Sam after the K5 left, I don't believe that happened at all. Anna would not have stayed there if she killed him after finding him incapacitated, she would have thought quick on her feet. BUT...I think I would like that twist. In the end we find out Anna actually had blood on her hands the whole time, and had the K5 believing they had done it, keeping them (and most importantly Wes) in her orbit and under her control. The flashback scene to that moment would be delicious. hmmmmm... but since she loved Wes so much I can't see her letting him think he had done it imo.

[dgpolo]

2 minutes ago, jvr said:

... but since she loved Wes so much I can't see her letting him think he had done it imo.

Yes, she loved him so much she's letting him take the fall not only for Sam but also for Rebecca (who, Wes, at least, loved) plus the arson? Did she hang anything else on him?

I must say I'm impressed by everybody that can remember all the convoluted plot points on this show. I though my memory was decent, but this show has proved otherwise.

[jvr]

14 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

Yes, she loved him so much she's letting him take the fall not only for Sam but also for Rebecca (who, Wes, at least, loved) plus the arson? Did she hang anything else on him?

He's dead, he's not being hurt. She would never have let him go down for this while alive. And lets not forget he did kill Sam. Pinning this stuff on him now is a last resort to save her ass and all the K5 + Frank and Bonnie. But anyway, it's just interesting to think about, don't think the writers will do that, and if they did it wouldn't be something they had pre-planned all the way back in season 1.

edited to add: I will correct one thing in my quote...I feel she loved what Wes represented (this son she had lost). There is a difference but I don't know if it matters (love is weird). She did not know this man but she did feel deeply for him because of the moment in her life he was forever linked to.

Edited February 27, 2017 by jvr

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

They are have all been involved in murder and/or the coverup of a murder. Even our dearly departed Wes.

There's involved and there's actually committing the act of murder. Frank is still standing at least a head above all of them. Thanks but I'm happy to hold onto my loathing of him.

[truthaboutluv]

14 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

There's involved and there's actually committing the act of murder. Frank is still standing at least a head above all of them. Thanks but I'm happy to hold onto my loathing of him.

For me, nothing has been as bad on this show as Frank slowly choking the life out of Lila while staring her dead in her eyes or Bonnie coldly and calmly snuffing the life out of Rebecca. Hell even Asher just backing his car on Sinclair. All of these actions were so cold and mercenary.

[LydiaMoon1]

When Annalise went back to her burned out house to rummage through rubble to retrieve the picture of her, Sam, and Baby Sam my heart broke a little.

[Milaxx]

4 hours ago, jvr said:

edited to add: I will correct one thing in my quote...I feel she loved what Wes represented (this son she had lost). There is a difference but I don't know if it matters (love is weird). She did not know this man but she did feel deeply for him because of the moment in her life he was forever linked to.

I think I get what you mean. Her feelings for Wes are tied up in multiple events; Rose killing herself & pleading with AK to "Take care of my boy" and the guilt she feels for her part in pushing Rose to that act of desperation, coupled with her losing baby Sam moments later. Then there's her unresolved guilt about working such a high pressure job so close to her due date. I'm sure it all blended together with her unresolved grief and made her feel responsible for Wes as a sort of baby Sam surrogate.

3 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

There's involved and there's actually committing the act of murder. Frank is still standing at least a head above all of them. Thanks but I'm happy to hold onto my loathing of him.

Wes actually did kill Sam. He then talked the rest of the K5 into covering up that murder.

3 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

For me, nothing has been as bad on this show as Frank slowly choking the life out of Lila while staring her dead in her eyes or Bonnie coldly and calmly snuffing the life out of Rebecca. Hell even Asher just backing his car on Sinclair. All of these actions were so cold and mercenary.

Asher lost sympathy points once he tossed Sinclair off the roof to cover up running her over in the first place.

[wanderingstar]

Quote

if discussing this show has taught us all anything, it's that all of these characters are assholes and we're all gonna have our favorite one no matter how problematic until the show ends or we give up in frustration.

This is the truth.

[project90]

9 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Yes, I understand that's the situation given the facts as they currently exist. What continues to annoy me is that Frank suffers no real consequences for having killed two people (three if you count Annalise's baby). So he got shunned by AK and spent a few weeks in jail. Boo hoo. I need for him to end up like Wes except with a lot more pain and torture beforehand. Loathe that guy.

4 if you count Annalise baby

Lila

the hit man

Bonnie dad

the baby