S02.E12: Camelot/3000

[scarynikki12]

Quote

The Legends continue their quest to hunt down the Spear of Destiny before the pieces fall into the hands of the Legion of Doom.

 

 

[Jediknight]

So Sara is Lancelot, awesome.

They should have known right away that the fragment for the Spear of Destiny was on Excalibur.  Come on, it's freaking Excalibur.

Mick and Stein, and Mick being the first one to volunteer to help Ray, it was a regular fantastic episode for Mick.

[Lantern7]

Ray is the official putz of the team, right? I mean, Nate comes on strong, but Ray had to play hero, and he put the gang in jeopardy over it. I like the guy, but Barry makes better choices than him. Barry Allen.

Sucks that Obsidian was the lucky one from the JSA. Poor Dr. Midnite. At least Stargirl is at home in Camelot. Of course, she likes Arthur that way. I'd feel bad for Gueniviere the Queen, but at least she now has a Plan B in Sara. "The King did what?!? I can stay with you for a spell. What's the local version of 'Netflix and chill' here?"

Mick's brain saved the day. Cool. I'm hoping he sets bad guys on fire soon. It feels like a while for me.

Why is the show skipping next week?

[Sakura12]

I like you Sara Lance, a lot. Love that. Sara really likes her Queens, the Queen of France, Queen Gwen and Oliver Queen. 

I do like that this show is such a team show, everyone gets to do something and they get to bond as a team and learn things. Mick saved the day. Sara got the girl, Ray lives out his fantasy, Nate actually had some historical knowledge, Jax got to threaten Rip, Stein got his ego checked and Amaya realized that you never leave a man behind. 

I guess they forgot that Gideon listens to Rip and as a computer she's not going to care what is good or bad. 

[Jediknight]

4 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Why is the show skipping next week?

Next week there is a presidential address.

[squidprincess]

The episode was pretty fun, and to my surprise, I really liked Nate in it.  He actually felt like a real historian AND like he actually cared about Ray.

But god, that ending.  Gideon has always loved Rip best, but this is not what the real Rip would want, and I find it strangely heartwrenching.

[tennisgurl]

Damn, AD should seriously look into playing a full on villain role sometime. For a guy who became famous for playing the nicest guy in the universe, he can be really damn intimidating when he's getting his evil on. Oh Gideon. I didn't even think of that. Does she not know he's brainwashed, or does it just not matter to her? Come on Gideon, this isn't what real Rip would want! I hope he gets back to normal soon. I did really like how they had Arthur get brainwashed, and use it to tie into Sara's need to save Rip, even if it did mean we didn't get much of "real" King Arthur. Still miles better than that bullshit Once Upon a Time pulled on the poor guy.

This show is so ridiculous and I absolutely love it. We have Sir Raymond of Palms who fights with a lightsaber sword thing (that flying hit on the horseback guy!), Mick leading an evil army through the power of his intensity, Sara kissing Queen Gwen (Sara is basically the female Captain Jack, traveling time and space, hitting on everyone in sight, and dying a lot), and all kinds of medieval shenanigans. And, hey, I liked Nate in this one! He was actually competent, and a good friend and teammate. Everyone on this show just fits really well, and even when they do stupid or jerky stuff, it doesn't really piss me off because its in character, and I am just so fond of these idiots.

Also, that slow motion of Amara, Nate, and Sara running through the battlefield with smoke everywhere with the freaking angelic chorus blasting was just amazing. It really was 300 in Camelot!

[thuganomics85]

As soon as Sara and Guinevere begin bonding, I was like "Yep, Sara's going to be the 'Lancelot' in this story."  Sara really seems to know how to get royalty to notice her!  I do wish the spent more time on that relationship, but hey, maybe they'll find another reason to go back to Camelot!

Cool checking in on Courtney/Stargirl again.  Pretending to be Merlin is a pretty sweet gig!

Of course, Ray would fanboy over getting to be a knight.  Sir Ray of the Palms, indeed.  Too bad Damien brought a gun to a sword fight. Good thing Damien doesn't believe in the double tap, at least.

Rip has been captured, but Gideon still recognizes him, so that is going to cause major, major problems for the Legends!

Mick getting to be the "brains" behind their victory was awesome.  Martin's reaction was the greatest.  We don't get enough of that pairing, but Dominic Purcell and Victor Garber are great at the "polar opposites" relationship.

Nate actually was useful, somewhat.

Amaya learns that being loyal to your team isn't a bad thing!

Didn't like this as much as the past few episodes, but I was entertained none the less.  Any episode that has Mick controlling Martin and Sara beating up knights with a sword is good in my book!

[benteen]

Not as strong as recent episodes and it's getting harder and harder to justify not having Firestorm and Ray in armor just take down all these knights.  But this was another fun episode that utilizes the team dynamic so well.

Great stuff with Mick as always and not surprisingly, Stein works well off of him.

I'm glad you found love Stargirl but you want to live in the 5th century?  Really?  I remember something Kevin Smith once said.  Being the richest guy in the 16th century still sucks because it's the 16th century.

[Miss Dee]

Oh Mick. You were ready to mutiny to go save Haircut. I really, really hope somebody tells him that someday. And not for nothing, we've gotten another reference to Mick's mind working in unusual ways. Hope that's leading up to something good.

I really liked the Camelot setting and all the little jokes. The writing was good in this one. I thought everyone's characterization was spot on. Ray is such a goober; I'm really starting to love him.

[KirkB]

It's a good thing for the Legends that Thawne decided to take this evil plot off. They were supposed to be trying to find the pieces of the Spear, right? I'm pretty sure he could have searched Camelot in 5 seconds or so. On the subject of the plot, did Dark have the same kind of knight fantasy as Ray? Why waste time messing around with the Knights of the Round Table when the point was to find the Spear?

I found it very amusing that Nate finally had a subject he knew everything about and yet still turned out to be be wrong because Star Girl had messed around with the timeline before they got there. Even when he's doing well as a historian he finds a way to fail.

Mick saves the day without even leaving the ship. Sounds about right.  :)

Of course Sara got the girl. She's got a thing for royals.

Edited February 22, 2017 by KirkB

[Proteus]

So I have a new ship. Sara and Gwenevere. LOL.

Nate and Amaya will not end. Sigh.

I love the episode.

Ray has strangely become a character I really like.

Evil Rip is cool but it makes me sad to see how much Jax hates him.

[Cthulhudrew]

So, tonight we got this:

Stargirl: "The only way you're leaving here with that fragment of the Spear is over my dead body."

Amara: "We have to do what's best. You used to know that."

Stargirl: "I know. And since I cannot leave here, you have to take this and keep it safe for me."

and then this:

Amara and Sara: "We have to leave now. We can't let the Spear fall into the wrong hands. Ray made a choice to stay and fight."

Mick: "I'm not leaving."

Practically everyone else: "Me either."

Sara: "Get in line or I'll kick all of your butts."

Amara: "No- they're right. We have to stick with our friend, even if it's tactically stupid."

Oy. When are these writers going to learn that heartfelt reversals don't really mean much of anything when they're practically done in the same breath? You have to let the moment rest, maybe over an act or two, or else it just looks wishy-washy and doesn't resonate at all.

Best moment of the night though? Mick staring down Sara over going to help Ray. 

Next best? Mick's brute will being the key to victory.

And the Lance-a-lot joke was pretty funny, too. Wonder how long someone's been saving that one up for?
 

Edited February 24, 2017 by Cthulhudrew

[tennisgurl]

11 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

Oh Mick. You were ready to mutiny to go save Haircut. I really, really hope somebody tells him that someday.

That made me smile a whole lot. He even almost fought Sara over it! I bet he threatened everyone there with a slow, lingering death if anyone ever told Ray about that bit.

Ray: "So Mick...I hear you totally like me enough to go back for me huh?!?!"

Mick: "Grrrrrrrrrr"

[Artsda]

Sara was just going to leave Ray behind? She shouldn't need convincing by the others regarding that.

[Lantern7]

2 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Next week there is a presidential address.

Works for me. I can watch The Challenge next week.

Why didn't anybody ask Gideon whether she'd follow Rip's orders even though he would be a prisoner?

[squidprincess]

6 minutes ago, Artsda said:

Sara was just going to leave Ray behind? She shouldn't need convincing by the others regarding that.

Her confidence had been shaken.  She'd gotten Jax to let Rip go last episode, and now she's seen what Rip's been doing.  We know he's a victim here, but she doesn't know the details, so Amaya's complaint about sentimentality had hit hard.  Fortunately, she came around in the end.

[BkWurm1]

I've loved Rip from the start but damm!  Evil Rip is sooooo good!  Rip was out menacing DD by a mile, that said, I was seriously worried that they were killing of Ray!!  Phew!

And I just knew they wouldn't be able to resist Sara as Lance-alot.  Don't understand why the Queen would add the alot part but since it was revealed to be a Camelot episode I was waiting for it, lol.  

Once again, Mick and the Professor made a delightful pairing.  

Wonder where Stargirl got her crimping iron.  

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Artsda said:

Sara was just going to leave Ray behind? She shouldn't need convincing by the others regarding that.

 

1 hour ago, squidprincess said:

Her confidence had been shaken.  She'd gotten Jax to let Rip go last episode, and now she's seen what Rip's been doing.  We know he's a victim here, but she doesn't know the details, so Amaya's complaint about sentimentality had hit hard.  Fortunately, she came around in the end.

It was complicated too since when Nate first ran in, it seemed like Sara was ready to go get Ray, but then Mick challenged her and she suddenly had to make a stand.  It was a quick turn around, but I liked that Amaya realized that she'd gotten into Sara's head and was messing with the team dynamics.  

Every week I'm impressed by how well the cast gets used.  Why can't they translate this to the other DC shows??  

[TDT]

The name of the episode was Camelot 3000..thought it was going to be a loose adaptation of the classic DC miniseries(which IMO is a good read)

So Chloe from Stargate Universe is a queen now..what happened to the rest of the Destiny crew i wonder lol

and who was that we saw in the preview..?

Edited February 22, 2017 by TDT

[immortalfrieza]

Okay, this is the second piece of the Spear of Destiny the Legends have had their hands on, and they don't even THINK about destroying it. There hasn't even been some lip service that it's indestructible and thus they can't do anything but hide it (even then, just drop it into a black hole or something, let's see the Legion get it THEN.)

Oh Ray... just put on your Atom Suit and blast the whole army into unconsciousness or something other than just making a glowing sword that doesn't actually seem to work any better than any regular sword. I'm guessing like how Firestorm is hardly ever used it's to save money, but come on, let's give some sort of excuse to justify not having either Firestorm or the Atom around for 9 out of 10 episodes at least. This is yet another episode where the Legends forget they have a time ship. Just blast off to the year 444959698658 AD or whatever, hide the spear, then go back to ten seconds after you left and go save Ray, preferably by using the laser cannons that thing is supposed to have on it, it's not difficult to figure out.

Just locking Evil Rip up instead of keeping him sedated until they can figure out a way to unbrainwash him (speaking of which, Dr. Midnite's device seems like just the thing to do that, but I doubt they'll try it) so he can just have Gideon release him with a command... Ugh, the Legends DESERVE the hell he's going to put them through next episode. I mean, like Thawne said they're all idiots, but still this is stupid even for them.

[Lokiberry]

Dang, Evil!Rip is hot!

Sir Raymond of the Nerds was pretty awesome, even if I couldn't figure out why he didn't just put on his super suit and  blast the half dozen or so knights of the enemy "army".  Or why Jax and Stein didn't merge and bring Firestorm to the party.

Mick was awesome, as usual. One of these days they're going to stop underestimating him.

Anyway, everyone who needed it got slapped down: Nate repeatedly, Stein for being so dismissive of Mick, and even Damien Dark got one-upped when Rip stylishly and effortlessly out eviled him, "Yes, my liege", heh.

Good episode, but I have to say it: when somebody leaves the job, you ERASE THEIR PASSWORDS! C'mon, people.

[squidprincess]

To be fair, Rip didn't "leave", he was missing in action, as far as they knew.  And while he entrusted the Waverider to them, there's no real indication that he left them any command override codes that would be able to remove his access even once they knew he'd changed sides.

But that said, why on Earth did they leave him alone in there?  Why not keep him sedated in the infirmary?  Or at least have someone watching him?  They know how tricky he can be.  Instead, everyone's off doing their own thing and keeping their very competent, dangerous prisoner locked in the brig of his own ship.

Edited February 22, 2017 by squidprincess

[Proteus]

So how did Stargirl make the Arthur legend real?

[Starfish35]

I'm not sure that I loved this one as much as recent episodes but it was still good (although yes, with the logic flaws that others have pointed out).  

Honestly there just wasn't enough kickass Sara for me. I know the others need time to shine too and I love how they mix it up, but I guess it feels like awhile since we've had a good Sara fight scene. and I thought we would get one here.  *shrug* 

I agree with what others said though.  Rip killing Doctor Midnight had to shake her, and then Amaya got into her head, so she wasn't following her instincts like she normally would about leaving Ray.

Jax is really starting to come into his own here.  I really like the way they've been growing his character this season.  And I loved that Mick's brain saved the day. :)

"Merlin" and Arthur are in love - lol.  (Shoutout to Merlin fandom?)

Nate was annoying me, and then he wasn't.  Normally I'm not fond of the Ray/Nate duo but it really did work here, with Nate's genuine concern for his friend.  

AD is killing it as evil!Rip.  I didn't see the ending coming but I totally should have.  Of course Gideon would still be loyal to Rip first.  

Edited February 22, 2017 by Starfish35

[Starfish35]

One thing I did notice while watching though - it was really the women driving this episode.  Yes the men had their storylines, Ray in particular, but it was really the women, Guinevere, Courtney, Amaya, and Sara, driving the action and making the decisions.  And while the myth of Camelot may revolve around Arthur and his knights, it's really two powerful women who are the force behind the throne.  And I was impressed that they had Amaya be the one to pull the sword from the stone - I thought it would be Ray.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Starfish35

[Proteus]

So did anyone understand how the Arthur characters of legend came to be? I didn't understand Stargirls explanation.

[Starfish35]

I guess I basically understood that she knew the legend, and so used the power of her staff to set herself up as the wizard Merlin.  She probably picked out her Arthur, set herself up as his advisor, and just kind of directed the creation of a kingdom to match the legend. 

[yellowfred]

So, I really enjoyed this episode.  I feel like the whole idealism vs. pragmatism theme got a little muddled at a few points, but the story was a lot of fun.  Plus, it was probably the first time I really bought Nate as an historian, even if his historical knowledge pretty much amounted to him walking around saying "this isn't how any of this works."  

Sara and Guinevere were cute.  I briefly worried that I was reading too much into it when the two of them were talking earlier in the episode.  I kind of loved Sara's look of mild annoyance when she realized that she'd accidentally become a figure in Arthurian legend.  

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

I guess I basically understood that she knew the legend, and so used the power of her staff to set herself up as the wizard Merlin.  She probably picked out her Arthur, set herself up as his advisor, and just kind of directed the creation of a kingdom to match the legend. 

Including having Arthur marry Guinevere even though she loved him?  And she's hanging around waiting for him to . . . what?

 

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Wonder where Stargirl got her crimping iron.

That was very distracting.  I guess she braids her hair when it is wet and sleeps on it?

Not sure how Ray avoided being skewered, since he is not a fighter and was battling "professional" swordsmen.  (Nate should have been all metal, all the time during the fight for the same reason.)  Does Ray also realize that by pursuing his fantasy, instead of leaving, he presumably would be unnecessarily killing soldiers who were under Rip's mind control?  Does human life mean so little to him now?  What if some of the swordsmen were destined to have important descendants?

Edited February 22, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

I guess I basically understood that she knew the legend, and so used the power of her staff to set herself up as the wizard Merlin.  She probably picked out her Arthur, set herself up as his advisor, and just kind of directed the creation of a kingdom to match the legend. 

Names were a lot more fluid then too.  I can see finding the right personality's and then saying your name from henceforth is Arthur/Gwen/Gallahad ect. ect.

21 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Including having Arthur marry Guinevere even though she loved him?  And she's hanging around waiting for him to . . . what?

The impression I got was the falling in love with Arthur thing happened later after she set up her perfect world to protect the spear. (Oops, time to make a new Excalibur)

 We also have to remember Stargirl is from the 1950's, still rather young and apparently as obsessed with Arthurian legend and courtly manners as Ray.  Loving Arthur from afar might have fit her worldview at that point.  Or maybe they had an understanding since Gwen seemed more a loyal subject than a wife in love with her husband.  

About the legend that Nate was looking up featuring Ray, they showed him wearing a crown.  So does that mean they spun stories about his future or are we supposed to thing that at some point Ray goes back and becomes king?  

I still can't help worry that Ray isn't sticking around past this season.  He and Nate are so similar in someways.  Right down to their voices sometimes.  I'm still not sure if it was Ray or Nate that did the opening teaser to the show.  That Ray was foolish enough to try to fight DD on his own worries me.  Is it just further sign of his Boyscout ways or foreshadowing of a time when his ideals finally get him into trouble he can't come back from?   

Edited February 22, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Starfish35]

6 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

About the legend that Nate was looking up featuring Ray, they showed him wearing a crown.  So does that mean they spun stories about his future or are we supposed to thing that at some point Ray goes back and becomes king?  

Yeah, I wondered about that too....what's up with that?

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I still can't help worry that Ray isn't sticking around past this season.  He and Nate are so similar in someways.  Right down to their voices sometimes.  I'm still not sure if it was Ray or Nate that did the opening teaser to the show.

Oh man I would hate to lose Ray. :(  But yeah I wasn't sure either.  I started out thinking it was Ray, but by the end I thought it was Nate.  

[feverfew]

I really enjoyed this episode. I'm continuously amazed that LoT manages to balance its cast so well, serving all its characters without playing favourites. And there were some beautiful shots along the way - my favourite one was Sir Ray  and Damien Darhk in the snow. Well done, show!

Contrary to some here, I'm getting a little bit tired of Sara's love 'em and leave 'em tactics. It worked very well in this episode - I totally get why she would be attracted to Guinevere - but coming off the Queen of France thing, it just seem...shallow? Eploitative? The potential relationship between Guinevere and Sara makes sense for Sara's character development, but it's undercut by Sara's Jack Harkness-ness, if that makes sense? Not that I want to put Sara in the (doomed, horrible, no-good) position of love interest, but I would like something a little more permanent - and therefore in a relation that actually matters.

Speaking of, I'm not too fond of Jax's hardline towards Rip. He knows he's brainwashed, right? It doesn't sit well with me that the Legends (those that have articulated any thoughts on it, at least, like Jax and Amaya) is treating Rip's actions like he's fully connaissant of those deeds. I would have hoped they would have been more focused on saving him than killing him.

 

5 hours ago, KirkB said:

On the subject of the plot, did Dark have the same kind of knight fantasy as Ray? Why waste time messing around with the Knights of the Round Table when the point was to find the Spear?

Ooh, I would love that!  Darhk with a Dark (heh) Knight fantasy works completely for me :)

9 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 I still can't help worry that Ray isn't sticking around past this season.  He and Nate are so similar in someways.  Right down to their voices sometimes.  I'm still not sure if it was Ray or Nate that did the opening teaser to the show.  That Ray was foolish enough to try to fight DD on his own worries me.  Is it just further sign of his Boyscout ways or foreshadowing of a time when his ideals finally get him into trouble he can't come back from?   

Nooooo! I love nerdish Ray! If we have to loose one, let it be Nate! I do agree that he and Ray somewhat occupy the same role, but I love Ray and especially his relationship with Mick. Send Nate back into his beloved past with Amaya at the end of this season, and pick up Amaya and Nate's great-great-great-granddaughter instead.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I still can't help worry that Ray isn't sticking around past this season.  He and Nate are so similar in someways.  Right down to their voices sometimes.  I'm still not sure if it was Ray or Nate that did the opening teaser to the show.

Oh man I would hate to lose Ray. :(  But yeah I wasn't sure either.  I started out thinking it was Ray, but by the end I thought it was Nate.

I think it was Nate.

[Lokiberry]

1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I think it was Nate.

Which doesn't make any sense because this was much more Ray's story than Nate's. I guess they just couldn't resist the opportunity to try to make fetch happen.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Lokiberry

[squidprincess]

2 hours ago, feverfew said:

Speaking of, I'm not too fond of Jax's hardline towards Rip. He knows he's brainwashed, right? It doesn't sit well with me that the Legends (those that have articulated any thoughts on it, at least, like Jax and Amaya) is treating Rip's actions like he's fully connaissant of those deeds. I would have hoped they would have been more focused on saving him than killing him.

 

The team doesn't know the details of the brainwashing yet.  And he did see Rip murder Sara. (Amaya likewise just found out her friend was murdered.)  So he is scared and angry.  He will probably feel guilty about it once he knows more details.  Right now, it's understandable.

Edited February 22, 2017 by squidprincess

[MarkHB]

9 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

As soon as Sara and Guinevere begin bonding, I was like "Yep, Sara's going to be the 'Lancelot' in this story."  Sara really seems to know how to get royalty to notice her!  I do wish the spent more time on that relationship, but hey, maybe they'll find another reason to go back to Camelot!

I can't help thinking about the fact that, in the legends, it's the affair between Guinevere and Lancelot that brings about the fall of the realm.  I wouldn't want to see Sara in that position.

 

8 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

Oh Mick. You were ready to mutiny to go save Haircut.

One thing that's been consistent about Mick: he's loyal to his crew... and he's not going to be a fan of following someone who doesn't respect and return that loyalty.  Sara might be Captain, but her only formal training in anything is as an assassin, not a profession that lends itself to esprit d'corps.

 

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

And I just knew they wouldn't be able to resist Sara as Lance-alot.  Don't understand why the Queen would add the alot part but since it was revealed to be a Camelot episode I was waiting for it, lol.

I took it as "I'll miss you, Sara Lance; (I'll miss you) a lot."  And don't forget the resemblance of the words "Sara" and "Sir".

 

It was great to see Stargirl, considering she was barely in the JSA episode and her only scene there without the mask had her calling out one line from the rear of the stage.  I wouldn't have even known it was her until Amaya said so. 

[Sakura12]

I'm okay with Sara's one off love interests on this show because with these writers the other alternative is far worse. At least I can enjoy seeing Sara happy instead of piled on with pointless drama for dramas sake. 

I hope next week is more Sara centric since it looks like she's fighting herself. 

[dippydee]

8 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

So, tonight we got this:

Stargirl: "The only way you're leaving here with that fragment of the Spear is over my dead body."

Amara: "We have to do what's best. You used to know that."

Stargirl: "I know. And since I cannot leave here, you have to take this and keep it safe for me."

and then this:

Amara and Sara: "We have to leave now. We can't let the Spear fall into the wrong hands. Ray made a choice to stay and fight."

Mick: "I'm not leaving."

Practically everyone else: "Me either."

Sara: "Get in line or I'll kick all of your butts."

Amara: "No- they're right. We have to stick with our friend, even if it's tactically stupid."

Oy. When are these writers going to learn that heartfelt reversals don't really mean much of anything when they're practically done in the same breath? You have to let the moment rest, maybe over an act or two, or else it just looks wishy-washy and doesn't resonate at all.

I really really hated this. It made them come across as idiots. 

The only real lasting thought I had from the episode were 

1) Sara Lancelot was an obvious joke but I loved it and I'm glad Sara's finding time for the ladies while Captaining

2) Evil Rip is ridiculously hot. Hes also a great villain and truly menacing as opposed to the whiny Original Recipe Rip but mostly he's just super hot when he's bad. I'm hoping they don't fix him because I love Evil Rip so much.

[Latverian Diplomat]

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Wonder where Stargirl got her crimping iron.  

The cosmic rod is a multiple function device, some of the lesser functions are a bit obscure.

7 hours ago, TDT said:

The name of the episode was Camelot 3000..thought it was going to be a loose adaptation of the classic DC miniseries(which IMO is a good read)

 

I agree that Camelot 3000 is good, and I'm sure the episode title was a tip of the hat, since Doc Midnite could have been in any future era, but they chose 3000 for that reason.

For all the joking about the light saber trademark, the Ray/Damien fight at the end owed a lot to The Force Awakens I think.

It irked me that killing Rip would apparently be deeply traumatic, but everyone is happy to slaughter the mind controlled knights with abandon, even their former comrades. A lot of the emotional weight of that battle was thrown away in favor of boilerplate action.

[feverfew]

1 hour ago, squidprincess said:

The team doesn't know the details of the brainwashing yet.  And he did see Rip murder Sara. (Amaya likewise just found out her friend was murdered.)  So he is scared and angry.  He will probably feel guilty about it once he knows more details.  Right now, it's understandable.

In "Turncoat" both Jax and Sara are pretty sure "they've done something to turn him" (<- Sara). Of course, as soon as Rip killed Sara, that went straight out of the window for Jax. I'm just... I don't know. Obviously it's totally traumatizing to see Rip do all these things, I just had hoped the team would have fought the idea that Rip went straight up evil by his own choice - you know, the whole "leave no team member behind"-theme this episode had going on.

 

1 hour ago, dippydee said:

2) Evil Rip is ridiculously hot. Hes also a great villain and truly menacing as opposed to the whiny Original Recipe Rip but mostly he's just super hot when he's bad. I'm hoping they don't fix him because I love Evil Rip so much.

I find Original Recipe Rip hot as well, but yeah. Evil Rip does something to my lions ;)

[Sakura12]

Sara and Mick are the only two that would understand Rip having a messed up brain. Sara was soulless and Mick was Chronos. This is also the second time Sara was killed by a brainwashed friend. She doesn't hold that against them. She was saved, Mick was saved, so of course she'll try to save Rip. 

The rest of the team might have a harder time looking Rip in the eyes when he comes back. Even if they know he was brainwashed. He brutally killed their friends. 

[Lokiberry]

1 hour ago, dippydee said:

I really really hated this. It made them come across as idiots. 

The only real lasting thought I had from the episode were 

1) Sara Lancelot was an obvious joke but I loved it and I'm glad Sara's finding time for the ladies while Captaining

2) Evil Rip is ridiculously hot. Hes also a great villain and truly menacing as opposed to the whiny Original Recipe Rip but mostly he's just super hot when he's bad. I'm hoping they don't fix him because I love Evil Rip so much.

I've loved Arthur Darvill since Doctor Who, but I've never found him conventionally attractive. Until last night. Then it was damn son, what happened to you?! I loved Original Rip, but I recognize that he needs some retooling and refocusing because the character was clearly not connecting with some of the audience. This is on the writers. AD is really good actor, they need to keep giving him the kind of material that he's had since he came back.

Also, keep dressing him in black.

[squidprincess]

32 minutes ago, feverfew said:

In "Turncoat" both Jax and Sara are pretty sure "they've done something to turn him" (<- Sara). Of course, as soon as Rip killed Sara, that went straight out of the window for Jax. I'm just... I don't know. Obviously it's totally traumatizing to see Rip do all these things, I just had hoped the team would have fought the idea that Rip went straight up evil by his own choice - you know, the whole "leave no team member behind"-theme this episode had going on.

I think that they do, intellectually, realize that something happened to change Rip.  But it's hard right now, because there are a lot of conflicting emotions.  They know the Legion must have done something, but they don't know what, so it's harder to understand.

According to the synopsis for next episode:

Spoiler

Jax and Sara at least will be going into Rip's mind.

So it's likely that the characters will have a better idea what actually happened.

I do think though that in the end, the season 1 characters will get there.  They remember Chronos, and they'd traveled with Rip through hell and back for about a year.  None of them had to come along with him again after the Savage quest was over after all.  They just need to know the explanation.

But it might be interesting with Nate and Amaya, because they don't know Rip at all.   Amaya only knows him as a man who has killed her friend.  This will be harder to get past.

7 minutes ago, Lokiberry said:

I've loved Arthur Darvill since Doctor Who, but I've never found him conventionally attractive. Until last night. Then it was damn son, what happened to you?! I loved Original Rip, but I recognize that he needs some retooling and refocusing because the character was clearly not connecting with some of the audience. This is on the writers. AD is really good actor, they need to keep giving him the kind of material that he's had since he came back.

Also, keep dressing him in black.

I think Rip's likely always going to be a polarizing character by nature.  But this does seem like a particularly nasty sort of "break the haughty" plot to borrow from tv tropes.  I suspect once the smoke clears, we'll get a Rip that's a little less aloof and a little more integrated into the group itself.

[KirkB]

I think part of the issue last season is Rip was wrapped up in the clumsy narrative along with the Hawks, Savage and the traitorous Time Masters. He was just a tool for the story. This season, with less focus on him, they are actually giving him more of his own story, even if he his being mind controlled, and it lets Darvill shine because he actually has more to do than move the plot along.

Speaking of mind control, yes, intellectually they know Rip is not himself. But as has been said, even knowing he's being influenced by the Legion doesn't help Jax just get past the fact Rip killed Sara.

I too was watching everyone so causally slaughtering the Knights and thinking "You guys do remember they're not themselves?" I mean, it was life or death so some killing was unavoidable, but Amaya and Nate and Ray seemed a little too eager. Weirdly Mick, the guy who I can imagine actually being that way, wasn't even allowed off the ship.

[rubyred]

Oh, I knew nothing about Stargirl's powers or superweapon "cosmic rod", so when she was talking about creating Camelot I thought she meant she had used the Spear (and its ability to "change reality") to make a fairy tale "real" -- although now that I think about it she only had a piece of it so I guess she couldn't have done that without the whole spear? Also I guess the LoT crew doesn't realize that yet another shard of the stick is in 2017 Portland with the Grimm folks, where it's lovingly referred to as "that...Stick."

[Starfish35]

Grimm? I don't know what you're talking about.  Grimm was cancelled after season four.  

Oh right, maybe that was just for me.  Lol.

[benteen]

Quote

I too was watching everyone so causally slaughtering the Knights and thinking "You guys do remember they're not themselves?" I mean, it was life or death so some killing was unavoidable, but Amaya and Nate and Ray seemed a little too eager. Weirdly Mick, the guy who I can imagine actually being that way, wasn't even allowed off the ship.

It makes it worse because those three all hour powers or weaponry that they don't need to kill with a sword.

[KirkB]

You're right. Metal Nate, Amaya, and Ray if he'd bothered to put on his armored, stun capable suit, could have knocked out all the Knights with minimal effort or risk to themselves. They were killing people who had no choice attacking them with an almost scary glee. Sara I can kind of understand, she may have gotten rid of her bloodlust but she's been a killer for so long it comes easier to her.

[Cthulhudrew]

12 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Including having Arthur marry Guinevere even though she loved him?  And she's hanging around waiting for him to . . . what?

I don't recall what time period the episode was supposed to be set in (Roman Britain? Medieval Britain?) but Guinevere struck me as a very Boudicca-like figure what with her warrior-queen ways. It could be that her marriage to Arthur was political rather than romantic.