S12.E10: Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't think it Lily was implying that Lily made a pact to trade her soul bit by bit, but that it's just a price humans pay for using Enochian magic/spells.

I didn't think I was implying she made a pact either, not sure where you got that idea.

I don't think she made a deal like most witches do with demons, but, IMO, she was tapping into the power of her own soul to do the magic she did--these weren't simple spells she was working, she was healing herself and such, which I think requires a power source--and, bit by bit, it was draining her soul. I'm guessing the banishing sigil gets its power from the blood, not the user's soul. Or if it is from the user's soul, it's negligible compared to the amount of power it takes for her to tap into angel radio or heal herself. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

So I can buy your wank for angels post-2009, but not before. 

That's mostly when we saw the angels, so that works for me. Angel groups whose job it is to "observe" as I think Castiel said he was - and maybe that group was - might also want to keep their vessels, because if Castiel's true form really is as he said "as big as the Chrysler building" normally, that might be somewhat inconvenient for observation even if they are keeping themselves invisible. Maybe a vessel is easier to maintain stealth with.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

We don't know much about Gadreel's vessel, but his life in the bunker was pretty easy.  JMO.

Gadreel's vessel was a bartender. But I'm pretty sure Gadreel was mostly wearing Sam when he was in the bunker.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

ETA:  Also, a thought--does the "yes" stand until it's actually rescinded?  Therefore Gadreel didn't have to get a second yes to go back into his host?  It didn't look like Gadreel asked the second time, just blasted in.

No, the "yes," doesn't appear to stand normally, because Jimmy had to agree again before Castiel could retake him as a vessel. Also Lucifer just couldn't jump back into Sam when Sam was in the cage with him. And we saw Gadrel's bartender host say "yes" before Gadreel blasted back in. He was behind the bar where Metatron also was, I think. So I think the "yes" must be given each time - unless maybe they come to a permanent agreement ahead of time - which is why I fanwank that it's easier for the angel to continue to either manipulate or work with the host once they have them than to have to get that "yes" again.

Creepy thought, but I wonder if there is a way in heaven that the angels can put a host on "ice" (metaphorically) until they need them again and somehow make sure they have a standing "yes" before leaving them there. That would be entirely creepy, but would keep the host from aging yet still available if needed to go down to earth.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, KirkB said:

I may not have said that quite right. What I meant was, even if Sam and Dean ARE losing or damaging a bit of their souls every time they use Enochian magic they should have plenty to spare. They don't do it all the time. I didn't get the sense you do it once and you lose your soul, you just scar it. Lily has been doing a lot of it for over a hundred years, she probably doesn't have anything left.

I gotcha. 

This episode, to me,implies that any human that uses Enochian spells, no matter the nature or type, damages the human soul in some way. My question, is what comprises Enochian magic?  If it's blood powered sigils, warding on ribs, in addition to spells, the boys should be worrying a little bit. The other question is did Cas know that humans using Enochian spells damage the soul?

Edited February 3, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

I think the vessel-taking in this episode was once more utter carelessness in the writing. They had the angels use the exact same vessels a hundred years in the past and now but it was apparently "just this once" they came down to Earth. Well, other than the dude who already fell. And well, Hisham who already invested all this time in stalking Lily and blabbing angel secrets. Guess, that all slipped Heaven`s notice. But since none of those other angels "fell", presumably they all went back to Heaven afterwards. And all but Cas in their vessels just for shits and giggles.

My guess is they just used the same people because it meant a) only half the casting done for the support roles and b) they thought the audience would need the same faces in the past and present to make the connection. 

Someone at least had the good sense to know that that wouldn`t work with Castiel so they did actually put in another vessel. And had the other angel helpfully name-drop him/her. 

Logically, within the narrative itself, it doesn`t hold together one whit but I see the behind-the-scenes reasons for it. Of course that means I can not become fully engrossed in the story if I can only make sense of it by taking in the production viewpoint.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Gadreel's vessel was a bartender. But I'm pretty sure Gadreel was mostly wearing Sam when he was in the bunker.

Ooops...you're right.  I forgot.

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

No, the "yes," doesn't appear to stand normally, because Jimmy had to agree again before Castiel could retake him as a vessel. Also Lucifer just couldn't jump back into Sam when Sam was in the cage with him. And we saw Gadrel's bartender host say "yes" before Gadreel blasted back in. He was behind the bar where Metatron also was, I think.

Well, Jimmy wasn't agreeing so much as begging Castiel to retake him instead of Claire.  And we don't really know what happened when Sam and Lucifer parted ways, but I'm pretty sure Sam rescinded his yes at some point in the cage.  I know Gadreel's host was behind the bar when Metratron was there, but I just remember him zooming in without pause. I might have missed a yes there.  

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just think it's odd (and counterproductive) to keep an old vessel around for years just in case.  It would make it harder for the angels to fit in on earth, because their vessels would be just as out of their depth as the angels.  I'm assuming it's just the writers not thinking things through again, and we're just trying to think up excuses for them.  *shrugs*

[AwesomO4000]

50 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

They had the angels use the exact same vessels a hundred years in the past and now but it was apparently "just this once" they came down to Earth.

I'm kinda confused on that "just this once" anyway. Was Castiel meaning walking among humans just didn't happen or being on earth itself? Because he did mention observing people for many years and that it was boring, so angels could be on earth without interacting with them - except for a vessel maybe - but still just mostly be observing.

I haven't watched the episode a second time, but I know that one angel remained in his/her vessel because they had formed a bond (the vessel was female, but I don't remember if the angel was. That angel seemed somewhat decent, so it was kinda a shame he/she got killed). I think Hisham was a bit off his rocker, and I didn't remember enough about the other angels to know why they might've kept their vessels. Two were killed without us seeing it happen, so they may or may not have been in the same vessel. (We could assume if not, that Lily found them through angel radio after they fell).

I don't know what their group was doing - since Castiel left them to head his own group sometime after the incident he remembered - but if it required them being on earth, they might've just kept the vessels.

Heh - I suppose some sicko angels could just go and resurrect their old dead host body to use and just not put the soul back in there if they didn't want to bother with consent, since we know angels can resurrect bodies. Actually in a way, that's a kinder thing to do, since no one has to be trapped in the body with them... and it would be especially convenient for angels who don't like humans.

My new fanwank is that that's what Hisham did, but just didn't want to admit it.

Or it could be just as you and @ahrtee said: the writers taking narrative shortcuts.

[auntvi]

After watching the episode again, I liked it much more than I expected to. I was afraid the Castiel back-story would be boring, but actually it was more about Lily and Isham. I thought those 2 characters were really strong and present (don't know if that's the right word). Lily survived, so maybe she'll be back? I wonder what the MoL would think of her - run, Lily, run!

[SueB]

On continued Angel vessel condition, I see three options:

1) Ishim and the others never left.  They were told to silently observe on earth but stay invisible.  After loosing their wings, they stayed visible as winds are required for multidimensional travel.  

2) They put them in their own private heaven and the people never grew old in heaven.  They took them back when needed. 

3) They stayed in their meat suits while in heaven.  Castile had to give up him girl vessel to go into hell.  Hence, he changed 'suits'. 

[bethy]

Well, I wasn't a big fan of this one. The Dean and Cass snit-a-thon at the beginning was annoying to me, though I admit I enjoyed Sam trying to negotiate between the two of them. Also, two Winchesters and an angel stuffed into the both was a great visual. 

So does Mary only call Dean? Why is Sam having to ask his brother if they've heard from her? 

So Cass was weakened by healing Ishim? What's the explanation for his powerlessness other times? That continues to bug me.

[lmdreamer]

I just got done watching the episode.  I thought it was good but are we susposed to forget about the nephillum metatron and castiel killed in order to lock up heaven?  She was just some poor girl who wanted to be left alone.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

First thoughts: Wow, this was not what I expected at all.  (Which is a good thing).  I did not expect this episode to be as good as it was.  I really enjoyed it.  It kept surprising me.  Although, at first I thought Lily was a little too Charlie-ish, by the end I really liked her.  And at first Isham seemed to be just another Uriel, but he really wasn't.  At least he didn't start out that way.  He was a creepy abusive angel (if he couldn't have Lily, no one else could.)  Like I said, creepy.  

Oh, I know there were still weak points and things that bugged, (and I'll get to those later :) ) but over all, I thought it was a very interesting, well acted episode. 

[Dobian]

I really liked this episode.  This show can still knock out some good ones after twelve years, compared to other shows with far fewer seasons and episodes that seem to be coming unhinged (TWD *cough*).  I liked the back story, the woman out for revenge, Castiel as a female, the angel playing a 1980s arcade video game, the moral ambiguities.  I can overlook some of the plot holes with the angels and Castiel.  This one was entertaining.

[MysteryGuest]

Watching the episode again, without commercials this time, always makes it better.  I enjoyed the general story, and it's always nice to have Cas around the boys, so that was all good.  But like most episodes this season, it won't hold up to too much scrutiny.  

[Mick Lady]

13 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I actually had the same thought, also at about 3 am.  (Inspirations sleet through the universe...and a cookie to anyone who recognizes where that comes from!)  

I was under the impression that the angels *only* came to earth to deal with what they thought was a Nephilim.   They should have gone right back to heaven after that.  So, my question is: why do angels need hosts in heaven?  Both Zach and Cas mentioned their "true form" (aside from being a multidimension being of whatever...)  I always assumed they only took vessels to interact with humans.  So...OK, the one who felt she and he vessel were soulmates, I could understand *maybe* wanting to be together in heaven, but why the others?  (Of course that would negate the whole bit of showing envesselled angels in heaven over the past 7 years, so we really don't want to go there...)  And yes, I've been wondering for a while if they re-established a door to heaven (how are the souls getting in again?) or does everyone still have to go through the sandbox?  That must cause quite a traffic jam.  

Terry Pratchett. I love Discworld!

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Mick Lady said:

Terry Pratchett. I love Discworld!

Virtual cookies to you!  (I'd send real ones, but I'm such an awful cook you probably wouldn't want to eat them...)   

[sarthaz]

What I continually learn from this show is that there are so very few actors in Vancouver.  It felt so incredibly distracting watching Krissy's dad run around as an angel that I couldn't focus on what was happening.  It's not like he was some background character recast into a major role.  How did they think we'd forget about him?  And then I got totally confused for a second when Cas's female vessel looked almost exactly like Mirabel's vessel (who incidentally played Greed back in The Magnificent Seven).

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

What I continually learn from this show is that there are so very few actors in Vancouver.  It felt so incredibly distracting watching Krissy's dad run around as an angel that I couldn't focus on what was happening.  It's not like he was some background character recast into a major role.  How did they think we'd forget about him?  And then I got totally confused for a second when Cas's female vessel looked almost exactly like Mirabel's vessel (who incidentally played Greed back in The Magnificent Seven).

Y'all are so much better at remembering actors in previous roles than am I!  I didn't remember Isham as Krissy's dad until someone else mentioned it, and then I thought, "oh yeah!"  Nor, do I remember Mirabel as Greed.  I do agree that the similarity between Mirabel's vessel and PastCas confused me for most of that flashback also.  

[MysteryGuest]

Well, I guess when you've been dipping from the same well for 12 years, you're bound to get repeats.  I knew the actor had played Krissy's dad, but I can't say it really bothered me to watch him play another character.  It's become kind of a fun game to figure out where I've seen the actors before.  Most times, I don't really remember until I happen to go back and watch an older episode and realize they played a prior role that I'd usually forgotten about.

[Commando Cody]

I never notice when they recycle actors. I read about it, somewhere, after the kid from 'Bugs' came back as the angel Samandriel. Otherwise, I never would have known they were the same actor.  I did not recognize Krissy's dad either.  However, I didn't like Krissy so I almost never re-watch that episode. 

[DittyDotDot]

I recognized Ian Tracey (both Krissy's dad and Ishim) right off. But he does the circuit quite a bit. He's also been on Bates Motel, Hell on Wheels, Heartland and quite a few other shows shot in Canada.

It never bothers me to see a familiar face, I think it's a fun game trying to figure out where you've seen them before. 

[Ria]

While I sympathize with Lily's loss, spending a century plotting revenge is an enormous waste of life. I would rather it been presented that way. Ironically, had she just lived a good life, grown old and died, she could have been long ago reunited with her daughter in heaven. 

[MysteryGuest]

16 minutes ago, Ria said:

While I sympathize with Lily's loss, spending a century plotting revenge is an enormous waste of life. I would rather it been presented that way. Ironically, had she just lived a good life, grown old and died, she could have been long ago reunited with her daughter in heaven. 

Sadly, I think that can be said of most people seeking revenge.  It's rarely as satisfying as you hope it will be, and you waste an awful lot of your life that you'll never get back.

[rue721]

I like Ian Tracey, so I was actually happy to see him. In general, I like seeing the familiar faces, whether they're playing new characters or not.

This episode was better than I expected. I liked that Lily's story ended up being more complicated than it initially seemed, what with the girl's father secretly being the same angel who instigated the killing. Interesting that Lily lost her connection with her daughter as she destroyed her soul, since I guess that sort of explains why her (soulless) angel father didn't feel a connection with her. But makes me wonder about Cas. How come he's able to feel such a strong connection with the Winchesters even though he doesn't have any humanity, either?

I really liked that the Winchesters and Lily tried so hard to connect on a human level. It endeared her to me that she still cared about doing that (even if only because she knew intellectually that it was important), and I just always love it when the Winchesters are such decent, good people.

Lily herself was pretty interesting, too. I liked seeing how she was dealing with losing her soul. It seemed like she'd already lost enough of it that she no longer felt that strongly about losing the rest. Which I guess is a relief, in a way. I liked Sam's reaction to hearing about her becoming soulless, too, and how he was clearly identifying with her (in a non-cheesy and non-forced way). I wish that he'd also had something more insightful or even just idiosyncratic to say about it, but that would just have been extra gravy on what was already a good scene.

I also liked Dean and Sam's conversation about Mary at the very beginning. It seemed pretty low-key and natural, but there was a lot of information about the characters' perspectives and states of mind in that scene. Very well done IMO.

Dean is kind of frustrating me with his difficulty in accepting the mother he has, and his resistance to letting go of his perfect, imaginary "mother" who never actually existed. On the one hand, I would actually be even angrier toward Mary (for leaving the bunker) than it seems like Dean is. Not because her decision to leave was so terrible (it was completely understandable) but because it just seems like it would be so painful to be on the receiving end of that, and I would have so much trouble setting myself up for that kind of rejection and pain again. So I'm not saying that he should be fine with her. But on the other hand, how he's expressing his feelings is a little off or weird to me. I would expect him to actually be a little icier and a little less pouty. The poutiness makes me think that his issue is that she's not the mother he wanted, instead of it being that he's trying to find a way to trust her and having some trouble with that. And I guess I'm less sympathetic to the former issue than the latter. YMMV.

I don't know what to think about where they're going with the nephilism thing. On the one hand, I really resent the whole concept that a "mixed" angel/human baby would be inherently dangerous and prone to destruction or evil. That just really REALLY sticks in my craw. REALLY. And the idea that just because Lucifer fathered a child, that the child itself (who not only hasn't done anything wrong, but doesn't even exist yet) is inherently a threat really bothers me, too. What about that descendant of Hitler's? She wasn't a threat or inherently destructive/evil/whatever, she was just a person with an unfortunate lineage. Like I would think that this baby (or any baby) would be. Ugh the whole thing just really gets to me. But on the other hand, I'm becoming hopeful that the show is actually not going to go in the eugenics-y direction that I've been afraid of. It was clear in this episode that the angels' extermination policy toward nephilism was barbaric and, if not (yet) meant to be rejected, at least meant to be questioned and not just accepted as OK. So I'm trying to be patient, and just waiting to see how this storyline plays out I guess.

Anyway, my point is that I was kind of dreading this episode, both because I dread angel-heavy episodes and because I hate this "beware the nephilism!" concept, but I actually ended up liking it pretty well. I was pleasantly surprised!

[Partly]

11 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I liked that Lily's story ended up being more complicated than it initially seemed, what with the girl's father secretly being the same angel who instigated the killing.

Except... the girl wasn't a Nephilim, she was human.  As Lily said, "I had my daughter long before I set eyes on an angel".  Ishim killed the daughter to punish/torture the mother. 

[rue721]

Just now, Partly said:

Except... the girl wasn't a Nephilim, she was human.  As Lily said, "I had my daughter long before I set eyes on an angel".  Ishim killed the daughter to punish/torture the mother. 

Wait, so who the hell WAS the kid's father? Hahahaha

[DittyDotDot]

34 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I liked that Lily's story ended up being more complicated than it initially seemed, what with the girl's father secretly being the same angel who instigated the killing. Interesting that Lily lost her connection with her daughter as she destroyed her soul, since I guess that sort of explains why her (soulless) angel father didn't feel a connection with her. But makes me wonder about Cas. How come he's able to feel such a strong connection with the Winchesters even though he doesn't have any humanity, either?

Wait, I thought the girl was completely human? Lily said she had her daughter long before she ever met Ishim or any angel. Did I hear that wrong?

ETA: What @Partly said. 

@rue721, I don't believe it was ever told exactly who the father was, just that she wasn't a nephilim.

Edited February 6, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

As I understood it, Lily was married and had a child with a human and the father died or left her. Then she became interested in angels and Enochian magic as a professor. Somehow met Ishim who became creepy and obsessed with her and she told him to hit the road. Then Lily met and fell in love with the other angel with the beard who was essentially May's stepfather.  Ishim was jealous of that relationship and lied to Castiel and the other angels and said the child was a nephilim so the child needed to be killed which Cas believed was true.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Somehow met Ishim who became creepy and obsessed with her and she told him to hit the road.

I believe she summoned him. She said something about regretting the day she found a ritual for summoning an angel.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I believe she summoned him. She said something about regretting the day she found a ritual for summoning an angel.

Ah. Did she summon himspecifically or just any angel?

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Ah. Did she summon himspecifically or just any angel?

She didn't specify, but I got the distinct impression he was the angel who showed up. 

[catrox14]

That makes sense. Thanks!

On another note.  I was really intrigued by Ishim saying that Cas survived Hell and was chosen by God.  I assume that mean that Castiel survived the journey into Hell to save Dean. As to being chosen by God I wondered if that was God choosing him to save Dean OR that God resurrected him and gave him Jimmy as a vessel permanently.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

As I understood it, Lily was married and had a child with a human and the father died or left her. Then she became interested in angels and Enochian magic as a professor. Somehow met Ishim who became creepy and obsessed with her and she told him to hit the road. Then Lily met and fell in love with the other angel with the beard who was essentially May's stepfather.  Ishim was jealous of that relationship and lied to Castiel and the other angels and said the child was a nephilim so the child needed to be killed which Cas believed was true.

OK, thanks everybody, and sorry for the confusion!

I remember Lily saying something about the kid being human, but was only half-watching, and assumed she meant that her daughter was human because SHE (Lily) was human. The show was probably clear, but I just didn't wasn't watching closely enough.

But damn, that kid was really young! Lily Saunders got a lot done VERY fast. How'd it take her a hundred years to get revenge when it only took her a handful to produce a child, lose the father, become obsessed with angels, become fluent in a non-human language, become a professor, summon an angel, deal with an angel stalker, and fall in love AGAIN?

[AwesomO4000]

15 minutes ago, rue721 said:

How'd it take her a hundred years to get revenge when it only took her a handful to produce a child, lose the father, become obsessed with angels, become fluent in a non-human language, become a professor, summon an angel, deal with an angel stalker, and fall in love AGAIN?

Hee. I can answer at least the first part... According to Lily, it was the angels falling and losing their wings that finally made it possible for her. Before that, the angels were able to get away I guess. And she didn't have a Castiel to go back and get her holy oil, and/or I guess she didn't know about being able to make a holy oil trap.

Am I remembering correctly that Castiel went back in time to get the holy oil? And if so, eventually Sam and Dean are going to run out of that stuff.

[ahrtee]

35 minutes ago, rue721 said:

How'd it take her a hundred years to get revenge when it only took her a handful to produce a child, lose the father, become obsessed with angels, become fluent in a non-human language, become a professor, summon an angel, deal with an angel stalker, and fall in love AGAIN?

OK, checked the transcript at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=30847  (emphasis mine):

All my life, I dreamed about angels. I studied them. I made them my life's work, until finally I learned the spell to summon one -- Ishim.  When I first saw him, it was like looking into the face of the Divine. I thought he was perfect. But he is a monster.   ...

 I shared all of our secrets with you, taught you all of our ways for your precious studies. [ Sighs ] I... I loved you.

You didn't love me. You were obsessed with me. That isn't love. [ Sighs ]

I loved you. You threw me away for him.

No. I never should've let you into my life. I needed Akobel to protect me from you.

Well, that didn't work, did it?

You killed him?

Obviously.

 

So my interpretation....she was obsessed with angels first.  Somewhere in there, she had a child (and the father disappeared) .  She summoned Ishim, who taught her the rest of the angel stuff, then she got scared.  She summoned the second angel to keep Ishim away.  It didn't seem to me that they were in love...wouldn't that have caused problems, too, in case they *did* produce a nephilim?  

As for the hundred years to get revenge...well, Awesom's explanation is the logical one (to me).

 

13 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Am I remembering correctly that Castiel went back in time to get the holy oil? And if so, eventually Sam and Dean are going to run out of that stuff

I don't think Cas went back in time, just had to go far around the world to get it, saying that it was very rare.  But I thought they should have run out of it a long time ago, considering it appeared they only had one jar and how many giant flaming circles they made over the past 7 years or so.

Another quote from SPN Wiki this time (from Free to Be...):

DEAN:  Where've you been?

CASTIEL: Jerusalem.

DEAN: Oh, how was it?

CASTIEL: Arid.

CASTIEL sets the jar on the table.

DEAN: What's that?

CASTIEL: It's oil. It's very special. Very rare.

CASTIEL sits down.

DEAN: Okay, so we trap Raphael with a nice vinaigrette?

 

So, maybe Cas got a few refills before he lost his wings.  Or maybe he found a supplier on Amazon.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

But damn, that kid was really young! Lily Saunders got a lot done VERY fast. How'd it take her a hundred years to get revenge when it only took her a handful to produce a child, lose the father, become obsessed with angels, become fluent in a non-human language, become a professor, summon an angel, deal with an angel stalker, and fall in love AGAIN?

Well, to be fair, I think she may have been obsessed with angels before she had the kid. She said she had dreamed of angels all her life. It just so happened she didn't come across the ritual to summon an angel until recently--recently being a 100 years ago--but, I think she had been studying the lore long before she met Ishim. 

I don't know what the her status was with the girl's father because Lily said the doll the girl was playing with was a gift from her father. Which implied to me he was still around, just not around, or he had recently died. I wouldn't be surprised if Ishim had something to do with their parting, whatever that was. 

I don't think Lily was in "love" with the angel who was protecting her. I think that was Ishim's take on it; that she tossed him aside for this new angel. But, I got the impression he was hanging around as her guardian angel, so to speak, and friend, but not her lover--physically or emotionally. I think that was all built up in Ishim's mind due to his lack of experience or understanding of humanity. 

48 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Am I remembering correctly that Castiel went back in time to get the holy oil? And if so, eventually Sam and Dean are going to run out of that stuff.

I thought he just went to Jerusalem. 

 

ETA: Damn am I not just a day late and a dollar short today? What @ahrtee said.

Edited February 6, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Myrelle]

Better written by a hair than last week's episode. I almost turned it off after the beginning nonsense in the car, but decided to watch through one more commercial and was glad I stayed for all of the nicer Dean/Cas moments. I used to love their wonderful friendship when it was written to in the way that it was after that ridiculous car scene. Loved the diner scene. Loved that Dean couldn't wait to join the party. Loved his smirk when Cas said that they never listen. Loved, loved, loved when Isham moved on to Dean when he told Cas that he was going to cut out his humanity and the look that was exchanged between Dean and Cas when Dean decided not to use the angel-banishing sigil. This is how their friendship use to be written to, IMO, and it was so good to see it make a bit of a comeback there.

The guest actors were decent enough even though the storyline was too apparent and contrived for me. While I don't care if she ever returns, I didn't dislike Lily Sunder. I DO kind of wish that they'd kept Isham around as he reminded me of Uriel in some ways. And he was supposed to be some kind of big man in Heaven, too.

I liked that Cas admitted that his actions needed to be questioned at times because they do. And I liked that it was after that that Dean softened. And when JA softens Dean in that way he makes the character become so Real to me.  

I can't stand even the mention of Mary or Lucifer, at this point. Just that small exchange between the brothers over her at the beginning reinforces my fear that this is all they're going to do with the character-make her a focal point for Dean being wrong and having to learn yet another lesson while his abandonment and parentification issues get completely swept under the carpet again. And it doesn't help that I'm finding Sam Smith's portrayal of her lacking in some important ways.  Cold as the Antarctic is not how I was hoping to see Mary, and yet, that's predominantly how she seems and feels to me right now.

So that leaves the BMoL as my only hope for any salvation storywise for this season. Oh joy.

[sarthaz]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think Lily was in "love" with the angel who was protecting her. I think that was Ishim's take on it; that she tossed him aside for this new angel. But, I got the impression he was hanging around as her guardian angel, so to speak, and friend, but not her lover--physically or emotionally. I think that was all built up in Ishim's mind due to his lack of experience or understanding of humanity. 

Yeah, I don't remember the specifics, but she said something about calling in another angel to protect her from Ishim.

Killing that innocent little girl was pretty dark for this show.  I can think of worse, but still, it wasn't easy to watch.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

So, maybe Cas got a few refills before he lost his wings.  Or maybe he found a supplier on Amazon.

Or maybe Cas got the Widow of Zarephath's oil jug, which was blessed by Elijah and never ran out.

11 hours ago, rue721 said:

I don't know what to think about where they're going with the nephilism thing. On the one hand, I really resent the whole concept that a "mixed" angel/human baby would be inherently dangerous and prone to destruction or evil.

I could see this being one of those - because it happened this way in the past (where, I think the rabbinic tradition is that the "heroes that were of old, warriors of renown" corrupted the 'pure' human race, which God did not want and maybe some of them turned bad and since they were stronger than humans, the humans couldn't really fight back and people eventually started worshiping them as gods which was a big no-no) so ALL nephilims were forbidden and that's just how it is now.  And, you know Angels - well, subtleties of law aren't their strong points.  Kind of like the BMoL.  ALL nephilims must die.  Just like ALL monsters must die.  Not saying it's right or wrong - just that the Angels, like the BMoL, don't leave any room for gray areas.

[SueB]

15 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Or maybe Cas got the Widow of Zarephath's oil jug, which was blessed by Elijah and never ran out.

I could see this being one of those - because it happened this way in the past (where, I think the rabbinic tradition is that the "heroes that were of old, warriors of renown" corrupted the 'pure' human race, which God did not want and maybe some of them turned bad and since they were stronger than humans, the humans couldn't really fight back and people eventually started worshiping them as gods which was a big no-no) so ALL nephilims were forbidden and that's just how it is now.  And, you know Angels - well, subtleties of law aren't their strong points.  Kind of like the BMoL.  ALL nephilims must die.  Just like ALL monsters must die.  Not saying it's right or wrong - just that the Angels, like the BMoL, don't leave any room for gray areas.

Cool idea on a never-ending supply.  Then again... Amazon... that's got just about EVERYTHING these days.  You can by a car lift for $98,000.  

And I agree with the Angels and their "black and white" philosophy.

To me, this entire season has been tearing down that kind of binary thinking.  I AM concerned that when Kellie put her hand on the Bible it burned.  That pretty much is Supernatural-speak for 'evil'.  When Sam had his hand on a Bible it didn't burn after he was infected with demon blood.  An Lucifer is an Angel by nature --- it's his personal choice to be evil.  So... Nephilim=Powerful ... got it.  Nephilim=Evil, I'm not sure.   In the early days I could see God saying ... just don't 'go there'.  Power corrupts and all that.  But this is not that same pre-Apocalypse universe.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I also liked Dean and Sam's conversation about Mary at the very beginning. It seemed pretty low-key and natural, but there was a lot of information about the characters' perspectives and states of mind in that scene. Very well done IMO.

That was a part I didn`t like because Dean merely expresses concern that Mary might have jumped too quick into hunting and Sam answers that basically they`ll never have a Mom who stays at home and bakes cookies. Like, what the hell? When did Dean say or even imply he wanted that? As if the only alternative to hunting is housework and baby-ing her grown-up sons? That was such a straw-man argument in my opinion. Whenever Sam does a thing like that, I just wish Dean would speak up because the easiest way to break people out of that shit is calling that out. 

What I think Dean wants is a mother who doesn`t make a face like she just smelt rotting fish when she sees her sons. Seriously, the reaction in that hunter funeral episode was "did somehow fart in here?" when she saw them. I don`t think that wish is so outrageous. I personally would throw in some freaking interest on her part in their lifes. She read the journal but never asked or adressed anything. Wow, the closest real life situation I can think of is adopted children finding their birth parents after x amount of years. And even they probably tentatively ask each other some questions about their lifes.

Also, since Dean is apparently the more antagonistic one with her, why is he the only one who talks to her? Like, why did Sam ask Dean if he heard from her recently? Do they not communicate at all? Right now it seems as if Sam is so zen, he never makes an attempt to contact her and Mary cares so little, she doesn`t reach out either without any prompting. Even John send freaking text messages every now and then and that guy was an asshole a lot of the time.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Aeryn13

[shang yiet]

Maybe Dean understands that 'baking cookies' is just shorthand for 'conventional'. Many years ago, Hillary Clinton said she would never be the baking cookies type and several stay-at-home mums got on her case thinking she was insulting them. But I knew what she meant. She wasn't implying other women only baked cookies and did nothing else.

"Mom, I don't want you to run for President/climb Mount Everest/ be an aid worker in Afghanistan!"

"Look, son, I'm not the staying home baking cookies type!"

Sam was just saying Mary would never go for a conventional 9 to 5 safe job.  I doubt he thinks there are only two jobs Mary can do.

Puzzled also why Mary does not bother to contact Sam and why she seems so distant and disinterested in her sons. And I agree that Sam is unbelievably zen about everything. Is he allowed to get upset and angry like Dean? Is he allowed to have conflicted feelings about Mary or Cas?

[DittyDotDot]

28 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Puzzled also why Mary does not bother to contact Sam and why she seems so distant and disinterested in her sons.

I don't think it's that she's more interested in Dean, but I think Dean's making the effort to get in touch with her. I'm sure Mary would return Sam's texts and phone calls just the same. IMO, Sam isn't making the first step because he's not really all that zen about it as it seems on the surface.

[shang yiet]

I wish the writers would start digging below the surface.  Why pretend to be so zen then? Let loose and get upset like Dean is allowed to do. And he did make the first step by showing her John's journal so it's Mary's turn now.

[SueB]

40 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Maybe Dean understands that 'baking cookies' is just shorthand for 'conventional'. Many years ago, Hillary Clinton said she would never be the baking cookies type and several stay-at-home mums got on her case thinking she was insulting them. But I knew what she meant. She wasn't implying other women only baked cookies and did nothing else.

"Mom, I don't want you to run for President/climb Mount Everest/ be an aid worker in Afghanistan!"

"Look, son, I'm not the staying home baking cookies type!"

Sam was just saying Mary would never go for a conventional 9 to 5 safe job.  I doubt he thinks there are only two jobs Mary can do.

Puzzled also why Mary does not bother to contact Sam and why she seems so distant and disinterested in her sons. And I agree that Sam is unbelievably zen about everything. Is he allowed to get upset and angry like Dean? Is he allowed to have conflicted feelings about Mary or Cas?

Oh I think there's a LOT going on for both Sam and Dean.  But for Dean, I think he is REALLY at a loss as to how to deal with her.  His first reaction was pure hurt - she's rejecting us.  Then he was able to accept, she's having a hard time adjusting and she needs space.  But his discomfort is not that she doesn't live up to the idol that he made, but IMO, that he doesn't get the unconditional love from her that he sort of built his personality on.  Just rewatching him react to Eve in Mommy Dearest reminded me of how 'sacred' Mary's memory was to him.  She truly LOVED Dean completely. He had never disappointed her.  She had never disappointed him.  So, even though she was gone for the bulk of his life, he had that touchstone - that mother's love - that kept him afloat.  Way back in S1 EP4 ("Dead In the Water') he said he tried to be brave for her everyday.  So he defined himself according to who he thought SHE was.  Now he's finding her to be a loving person but distant right now.  She clearly loves them but I think she feels like she's betraying the family she left in heaven.  She doesn't want to lose them.  They were a heavenly illusion but they were HERS.  So, just like Dean is clinging to a flawed image of Mary, Mary is clinging to a flawed image of Dean.  And the biggest issue -- Dean is worried he doesn't measure up to who Mary could love again like she used to.  He's an adult with flaws and has done things he sure doesn't want her to know.  Of course the reality is that no one could live up to the love a Mother feels for her little sweet 4 year old.  It's appropriate for a time and place.  But if Mary were to criticize Dean like she did Cas in First Blood?  Yikes.  I know Dean is tough and he'd roll with it, but Dean probably hasn't actually named his fear yet.  So, it's just a general unease.  And it's coming out in random unsettled comments.   I also think they are very much alike and he's not sure how to deal with that.  

As for Sam, I think the longer she's gone, the longer he's worried she won't be their mother.  She'll just be another hunter who is technically their mother but won't build a life with them.  She seems to prefer 'lone wolf'.  I get why that bothers him. One, it's unsafe. Two, it's a rejection when she keeps leaving.  She's just showing NO interest in spending down time with them.  That's gotta hurt.

[catrox14]

There has never been any good scene that really addresses WHY Dean specifically would have this preconceived idea of motherhood especially since I can't recall Dean ever demonstrating any kind of proclivity that he thinks Moms are supposed to be a certain thing.

Dean DOES have memories of Mary. Those memories were real. Mom gave him pie and made him a PBJ and tomato rice soup and whatever other things he experienced that we don't know. He probably has a bunch of other memories if faded or possibly not 100% accurate. To me, it doesn't say anything about Dean and how he views motherhood because he didn't know whether Mary bought or made the pie. He clearly didn't care when he raved over the meal they shared that was take out. Mary was the one that brought up not cooking. Not Dean.

I'm thinking more and more that maybe Sam maybe projecting his own thoughts about Mary meeting that standard but rather than admit his own issues he brings it up in vague ways with Dean. Maybe Dean has just decided that he isn't going to spend time defending his emotions that surround his relationship with Mary and he may also not want to get into any major discussions because he doesn't want to argue with Sam about it Mary. I mean Dean stated his opinions and feelings and he's having some detente with Mary for lack of a better word.

[SueB]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There has never been any good scene that really addresses WHY Dean specifically would have this preconceived idea of motherhood especially since I can't recall Dean ever demonstrating any kind of proclivity that he thinks Moms are supposed to be a certain thing.

Dean DOES have memories of Mary. Those memories were real. Mom gave him pie and made him a PBJ and tomato rice soup and whatever other things he experienced that we don't know. He probably has a bunch of other memories if faded or possibly not 100% accurate. To me, it doesn't say anything about Dean and how he views motherhood because he didn't know whether Mary bought or made the pie. He clearly didn't care when he raved over the meal they shared that was take out. Mary was the one that brought up not cooking. Not Dean.

I'm thinking more and more that maybe Sam maybe projecting his own thoughts about Mary meeting that standard but rather than admit his own issues he brings it up in vague ways with Dean. Maybe Dean has just decided that he isn't going to spend time defending his emotions that surround his relationship with Mary and he may also not want to get into any major discussions because he doesn't want to argue with Sam about it Mary. I mean Dean stated his opinions and feelings and he's having some detente with Mary for lack of a better word.

I think Dean's thoughts are not about "motherhood" but more about Mary, HIS mother.  And as evidenced by his ability to rattle off significant details about the way she and John met, I'd say his ideas about Mary were very influenced by his mourning father. Who saw their marriage as perfect 'after she died'.  And while he might know there's a disconnect there, that doesn't mean he can detach from the idealized version that easy.  BTW, did you all notice that Mary was sitting at the diner she and John met in First Blood?  THIS CAN ONLY END IN TEARS.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Like, why did Sam ask Dean if he heard from her recently? Do they not communicate at all? Right now it seems as if Sam is so zen, he never makes an attempt to contact her...

1 hour ago, shang yiet said:

 And I agree that Sam is unbelievably zen about everything. Is he allowed to get upset and angry like Dean? Is he allowed to have conflicted feelings about Mary or Cas?

42 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

IMO, Sam isn't making the first step because he's not really all that zen about it as it seems on the surface.

Had some logic to work through... those who want to tl:dr this can skip to the bolded part.

I'm not so sure that Sam isn't at least partially zen right now (more on this later). Sam seems to have zen periods in his life, usually when he's decided he's come to some kind of acceptance about his current situation. Sam experienced one of those zen periods in season 7 when he decided that he'd done everything he could to fix what he messed up and that all in all he could live with the consequences of hallucination Lucifer, because at least he knew what they were and it could be worse. His good friend Cas betrayed him and caused his current craziness? Ehn, no problem, he'll forgive Cas: people make mistakes. Talk about zen.

For me, season 8 and 9 Sam was the anomaly. I didn't recognize that Sam all that much, and all of that non-zen crap just lead to more problems in his life... which Sam seemed to recognize at the end of season 10 and through season 11. I really did believe Sam in season 10 when he said that he'd finally come to the realization that hunting with Dean was what he wanted, and in season 11 when he realized that he should've looked for Dean and not tried again for that "normal life" which just made him work too hard for something that he was never gonna find anyway no matter how hard he tied to make that square peg fit in the round hole. So after that realization, and their win at the end of season 12? Yeah that's as good as it gets for Sam. He's hunting with Dean like he wants, the problem he caused was thankfully taken care of - with some collateral damage, but it could've been be worse - and Dean wasn't dead, and Sam was saved from getting tortured to death. A huge win in the Sam Winchester scheme of things.

I'm thinking Sam is deciding he's not gonna look this gift horse in the mouth. Yes, Mary being back is confusing, and that hole he didn't know he had is only maybe superficially filled. But it could be worse... and one way it could be worse is if he or Dean pushes too hard and Mary is chased away, but weirdly I think that may be almost as much because of Dean as Mary. Sam wants - even needs - a Dean that's at least mostly together in his life right now. I think most of the not baking cookies argument Sam gave is his trying to make excuses for Mary to try and make Dean feel better, but he really doesn't want to go into it in more depth so as to keep things on this fine line... (which goes to your "straw man" argument, @Aeryn13. Maybe just my opinion, but I don't think Sam wants to make the argument that Mary could be doing something else believable, because he wants to comfort Dean with that what Mary is doing is logical for her and not a reflection on them/Dean. He's making the "everything is fine. This is just normal for us." argument, because Sam doesn't want Dean to be upset or his own zen Hindenburg to crash - see below.) And contacting Mary too much might also dent that illusion if the reality is too real.

So maybe Sam isn't entirely zen... I'm thinking he was, but it's wearing off now, and his current zen is only to the extent that as long as he can keep up the illusion that everything is okay, and that Dean isn't heading for an emotional breakdown, he's good... but he might be headed for another season 8 Amelia "yay 'normal life' is so great and healthy" delusional Hindenburg to come crashing to the ground when the reality of Mary finally wins out - much like the return of Dean poked a hole in Sam's Amelia delusion - except not as badly done as that was (because season 8 was the worst, in my opinion anyway.)

Okay. All of that made sense in my head... but I'm not sure it made it out of there making any sense.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

51 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There has never been any good scene that really addresses WHY Dean specifically would have this preconceived idea of motherhood especially since I can't recall Dean ever demonstrating any kind of proclivity that he thinks Moms are supposed to be a certain thing.

Dean DOES have memories of Mary. Those memories were real. Mom gave him pie and made him a PBJ and tomato rice soup and whatever other things he experienced that we don't know. He probably has a bunch of other memories if faded or possibly not 100% accurate. To me, it doesn't say anything about Dean and how he views motherhood because he didn't know whether Mary bought or made the pie.

I think those memories you mentioned are exactly why Dean could (note that I did not say that Dean does) have a preconceived idea of motherhood.  Or at least of his mother.  His REAL experiences of having a mother were a woman who stayed home and took care of him - even if she didn't bake the cookies or the pie herself.  Buying or making pies is secondary to care-giving, which is what Mary did for Dean when he was young.  She stayed home.   She didn't go to work outside the home - at least that he was aware.  She was there for him, pretty much all the time.  And now she's not.    So I don't really understand why anyone would be upset if that is kind of/sort of what Dean expected of his mother.  Well, of course he did!  

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

As for Sam, I think the longer she's gone, the longer he's worried she won't be their mother.  She'll just be another hunter who is technically their mother but won't build a life with them.

I buy this. Also remember Dean's heaven where Dean felt all the love from Mary? Sam looked like he was going to cry because he couldn't get the love, too. I think Sam's zen is also about holding himself together now.

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So maybe Sam isn't entirely zen... I'm thinking he was, but it's wearing off now, and his current zen is only to the extent that as long as he can keep up the illusion that everything is okay [...]

TBH, I don't think Sam's been all that zen about it from the beginning. He won't confront Mary like Dean does, but he's not reaching out to her either. And, I think his little blow up in American Psycho is a prefect example of how Sam is not okay either. Sam likes to talk it out when it's someone else's problem, but is very introverted when it comes to his own issues. Sam keeps a very calm and rational outward appearance, IMO, but is boiling under the surface quite a bit. And, IMO, Sam tends to shift his focus to something else as a way to not deal with the problem at hand. Right now he's able to focus on the job, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him blow up at something really random at some point in the future.