S12.E10: Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets

[FlickChick]

11 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Dipping a newbie toe into the fray, I'll say I liked this episode a little more than I thought I would, but that's not saying much this season as I think the writing quality has simply plummeted to new subterranean depths, and I'm not convinced Dabb has a handle on this showrunning thing at all.

My biggest problem with any episode anymore is how the Winchesters are continuing to play guest-stars on their own series week after week after week. Though at least they were along for the ride this time, but nothing is ever about them, and I honestly believe the only Winchester Dabb likes or is interested in is Mary - or, at least, this version of Mary that he's trying to sell.
 

I agree with you so very much. I am so tired of watching all the stories focusing on the guest stars while our so-called "stars" become secondary. It would be interesting if someone actually counted the minutes that they are fully engaged in a story in any given episode this season, excluding the torture/rescue openers. I have no idea what Dabb is doing, but it's not what I look for in this show. And I'm sorry if I offend people, but it is my opinion that the Js should worry less about having time off and more about continuing their presence on their own show. I would hate to give up on this show after watching from the pilot on. :(

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I agree with you so very much. I am so tired of watching all the stories focusing on the guest stars while our so-called "stars" become secondary. It would be interesting if someone actually counted the minutes that they are fully engaged in a story in any given episode this season, excluding the torture/rescue openers. I have no idea what Dabb is doing, but it's not what I look for in this show. And I'm sorry if I offend people, but it is my opinion that the Js should worry less about having time off and more about continuing their presence on their own show. I would hate to give up on this show after watching from the pilot on. :(

I tend to think the Js time off is part of their contract negotiations.  If they want J2, those are their terms. I DO think if the show would write less episodes then maybe the story would be tighter and have more concentrated episodes.  Or if the network wants 22 or 23 eps a season then the writers could IMO do a better job of working the boys into the story despite not as much on screen time.  Sprinkle in comments from other characters about the boys or edit in a way that keeps them present in the episode even if minimal time.

[MysteryGuest]

Just some random comments after reading the latest posts...

I had an issue with the fact that all of those angels just stood there and took what Isham said as gospel without ever questioning him...even when it meant killing another angel and a child.  I get that heaven has rules, but is their normal MO to kill first and ask questions later?  It just seemed a bit absurd to me.  

I don't know how to reconcile the J's need for time off and my need to have entertaining storylines with the characters that interest me.  I suppose less episodes is the easiest way, though that makes me sort of sad.  I guess if they gave me 15 really well written episodes, I could find a way to live with it.  These watered down episodes aren't really cutting it.

Edited February 9, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I had an issue with the fact that all of those angels just stood there and took what Isham said as gospel without ever questioning him...even when it meant killing another angel and a child.  I get that heaven has rules, but is their normal MO to kill first and ask questions later?  It just seemed a bit absurd to me.  

I had no problems with it because when I think back to when  Cas/angels were introduced, angels placed great importance on obeying their superiors and following orders. It seemed to me Ishim was was their leader so they didn't question his orders and believed he was doing the right thing and wasn't a liar.

[Geordiegirl1967]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't know how to reconcile the J's need for time off and my need to have entertaining storylines with the characters that interest me.  I suppose less episodes is the easiest way, though that makes me sort of sad.  I guess if they gave me 15 really well written episodes, I could find a way to live with it.  These watered down episodes aren't really cutting it.

I agree. I get why and on a personal level I'm glad for the Js. But it is currently spoiling the show for me. The solution is quality over quantity. But that doesn't have to mean fewer eps, just wringing more depth and emotion from the scenes they are in. And make it about them even when their screen time is limited e.g. an ep where one of them is missing, or in a sleep they can't wake up from or whatever, while the other works to save them. It can be a light ep for the one who is awol while still being satisfying for the fans. 

[SueB]

4 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Just some random comments after reading the latest posts...

I had an issue with the fact that all of those angels just stood there and took what Isham said as gospel without ever questioning him...even when it meant killing another angel and a child.  I get that heaven has rules, but is their normal MO to kill first and ask questions later?  It just seemed a bit absurd to me.  

I don't know how to reconcile the J's need for time off and my need to have entertaining storylines with the characters that interest me.  I suppose less episodes is the easiest way, though that makes me sort of sad.  I guess if they gave me 15 really well written episodes, I could find a way to live with it.  These watered down episodes aren't really cutting it.

When first introduced in S4, "obedience" was Rule #1.  So... 'obey first and never ask questions' was more or less the philosophy until Team Free Will ripped up the manual.  Which some hated Cas for and some loved him for.  In the end, however, the nature of the angels was to prefer a leader with rules.  That's become clear.  However they've also seemed to pick up that Rule#1 is now 'protect humanity'.  This is a major improvement IMO.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I had no problems with it because when I think back to when  Cas/angels were introduced, angels placed great importance on obeying their superiors and following orders. It seemed to me Ishim was was their leader so they didn't question his orders and believed he was doing the right thing and wasn't a liar.

I agree.  Did they show in the previously's for this ep, when Cas first appeared and he said that angels were warriors?  I thought I saw that clip recently but I don't remember where.  It made me think that it seemed to me that there was a very military-type structure with angels (soldiers are, after all, warriors) - at least until Cas ripped up the manual, as @SueB said.  And with that type of structure,  I could believe that the general rule was 'obey your superior officer and don't ask questions.'  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I watched this again last night, and I found myself just completely enthralled.  I'm sure there were continuity issues with the angel lore and all, but they didn't seem to take me out of story as badly as the plot holes of First Blood did.  (Seriously -I still can't figure out how Sam and Dean died and that just irks me.  And where did they go when they were dead?  Heaven?  Hell?  The Empty?  But I digress...).  

Isham was even more loathsome the second time around.  

The diner scene was even more fun.  I particularly loved how Dean just stared Isham down without flinching even while Isham threw insults at him.  You go, Dean.   

Speaking of characters we'd like to see again - now  I wonder what happens to Lily, what she'll do, and if we'll see her again.  She wasn't a threat to humans, she said so herself, and I'd think it might be handy to have someone with her knowledge of Enochian and angel magic on the your side.  Thinking about that did lead me down a rabbit hole about magic in general, but I'll post that in the all eps thread.  I think that's a more suitable place for those thoughts.  

[Macbeth]

Cas has completely lost his mojo for me, and that is devastating for my enjoyment of this show.

This should be in the unpopular opinions thread - but with 22 -23 hours of screen time - it can't be the J2s all the time.  It is not realistic.  The show has a grueling schedule.  With so many episodes you need a very strong, supporting cast.  Unfortunately for this show - they keep killing off the cast. 

So they are left with Crowley and Cas who, given their roles and nature of their characters, should be used in small doses.  Instead, because there is no one else, they end up being the road trip buddies which completely misses the point of the nature of their characters.

[Myrelle]

12 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

So they are left with Crowley and Cas who, given their roles and nature of their characters, should be used in small doses.  Instead, because there is no one else, they end up being the road trip buddies which completely misses the point of the nature of their characters.

Taking my response to the writers thread

[auntvi]

Episode 8.12 As Time Goes By (I'm sure I'm not the only person who watched it this morning) provides some info on the effect of using sigils. Henry Winchester says he tapped the power of his soul to use the blood to blood sigil to find Sam and Dean in the future. He told them that he'd need at least a week to "recharge" before he could do it again. I don't remember anyone saying they had to wait after using one of the sigils since then, BUT Sam & Dean don't use the sigils very often so it wouldn't be an issue.

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Episode 8.12 As Time Goes By (I'm sure I'm not the only person who watched it this morning) provides some info on the effect of using sigils. Henry Winchester says he tapped the power of his soul to use the blood to blood sigil to find Sam and Dean in the future. He told them that he'd need at least a week to "recharge" before he could do it again. I don't remember anyone saying they had to wait after using one of the sigils since then, BUT Sam & Dean don't use the sigils very often so it wouldn't be an issue.

It could just be the time travel nature of the spell he used? It seems time travel needs a lot of power to pull off based on both The Song Remains the Same and Frontierland. Perhaps the banishing sigil and other spells just don't have the same power requirement?

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It could just be the time travel nature of the spell he used? It seems time travel needs a lot of power to pull off based on both The Song Remains the Same and Frontierland. Perhaps the banishing sigil and other spells just don't have the same power requirement?

Seems to me a banishing sigil must be pretty darn powerful to blast fully powered angels to who knows where.  I think that would take a fair chunk from the soul. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

20 hours ago, Macbeth said:

Cas has completely lost his mojo for me

This happened for me a long time ago but has been particularly obvious this season and last (the whole ridiculous Casifer storyline!)

20 hours ago, Macbeth said:

with 22 -23 hours of screen time - it can't be the J2s all the time.  It is not realistic.  The show has a grueling schedule.  With so many episodes you need a very strong, supporting cast.  Unfortunately for this show - they keep killing off the cast. 

Yes and no. In real life, practical terms of course you are right. In the terms of the show I don't agree. For me the show works best when it is focused on Sam and Dean. The problem is that other characters too often get in the way of the boys being front and centre rather than enhancing the show. This season they have felt like guest characters on their own show. So I increasingly find myself losing interest in the non Dean & Sam scenes which are too often just 'we have to give Jared and Jensen some time off' filler. There is a way of using other characters to enhance D&Ss story, while also given them time off. But the show has not found it yet which brings me to.

20 hours ago, Macbeth said:

So they are left with Crowley and Cas who, given their roles and nature of their characters, should be used in small doses.

I totally agree. Both of these characters used to have impact in their own, very different, ways. But placing too much reliance on them to take the load off the Js has diminished them.

They are just cycling through different ways of keeping the hugely powerful character of Cas on the show without taking all the jeopardy out of it. The fully powered Cas we first met could; resurrect people, time travel, teleport, smite demons left and right, travel to heaven, hell, Lucifer's cage etc. Remember how awesomely powerful he was when introduced in s4? There is no way of hunting with a being that powerful as an ally and it to still be dramatically interesting. So they have made him; 'just following orders' Cas (s4), 'on their side' Cas (albeit against huge odds which offset his powers somewhat) (s5), 'betrayer Cas' (s6), 'Levi Cas' then 'insane Cas' (s7), 'stuck in Purgatory' Cas then 'working with Metatron' Cas (s8), 'wingless and graceless' Cas in s9, 'Casifer' in s11 etc etc. In s12 they seem to have resorted to taking a very lax attitude to angels' powers and the canon on that to the point of making Cas useless. So he is helpless in this ep after healing Isham when healing hasn't affected him like that before, helpless in the latest ep due to Michael's lance, unable to locate them or hunt or do anything useful in First Blood, idiotically naive in LOTUS. 

Crowley has suffered a similar fate. He has gone from reluctantly helping them when it also benefitted him yet being incredibly evil and untrustworthy to a character now that I don't even understand. Is he still evil? Does he like Sam and Dean? Is it still all about him?

Other characters work better with Sam and Dean. Jodie are her girls are great as is Sheriff Donna. Rowena has really grown on me. And her semi redemption arc actually makes sense. Others who could have played this role have been squandered; Charlie, Bobby, Kevin, Garth all wasted.

One avenue they haven't explored which would keep a laser focus on Sam and Dean's story, and could feature them in every scene while the Js relax at home with their families would be to feature the boys when they were young. Colin Ford is fantastic as young Sam. Dylan or Brock Kelly work well as Dean. Lets have some flashback or time travel eps to their younger lives. And lets go back to using Cas and Crowley in small doses.

[catrox14]

Just now, Geordiegirl1967 said:

So he is helpless in this ep after healing Isham when healing hasn't affected him like that before,

Maybe that healing issue was the first sign of something happening to Cas, per the "Cosmic Consequences" of killing Billie. I've been thinking that maybe an angel killing a reaper starts to deplete the angel grace or something.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, auntvi said:

Episode 8.12 As Time Goes By (I'm sure I'm not the only person who watched it this morning) provides some info on the effect of using sigils. Henry Winchester says he tapped the power of his soul to use the blood to blood sigil to find Sam and Dean in the future. He told them that he'd need at least a week to "recharge" before he could do it again. I don't remember anyone saying they had to wait after using one of the sigils since then, BUT Sam & Dean don't use the sigils very often so it wouldn't be an issue.

Thanks for posting the additional info @auntvi!  I'd forgotten Henry had said that.

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

It could just be the time travel nature of the spell he used? It seems time travel needs a lot of power to pull off based on both The Song Remains the Same and Frontierland. Perhaps the banishing sigil and other spells just don't have the same power requirement?

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Seems to me a banishing sigil must be pretty darn powerful to blast fully powered angels to who knows where.  I think that would take a fair chunk from the soul. 

Eek!  I can kind of see both arguments.  To make time travel work, you have to bend the physical rules of the universe, which would take a lot of power/energy.  Angels exist outside the physical rules of the universe, so it would be easy(ier) for them.  But if angels also operate on a different type of magic/power mechanism, then the power/energy required for a human to blast an angel away would be pretty high indeed.  

Maybe the angel banishing sigils do take it out of them, but Dean and Sam just don't realize the price they are paying?  And/or attributed their weakness/tiredness to be a result of the fight which usually preceded them having to use the sigil in the first place.  

[SueB]

I think the big variable here is access to Heaven.  They used to rely on that a great deal but now it's not really been discussed.

S4 - Cas was on 'team heaven' but they didn't allow him to heal Dean during "On the Head of a Pin"
S5 - Cas came back very powerful but couldn't heal Bobby because he was 'cut off from heaven'.  He could zap about (with his wings) but he had limitations
S5 (The End-verse) - Cas' powers slipped away when the Angel's left.  He could sense Dean was past Dean but he couldn't heal or teleport. He did, apparently, excel at orgies.
S6 - Cas was running a one portion of the Civil War. He was VERY VERY powerful, even before he took on the Purgatory souls
S7 - Cas returned as Emanuel, then took on Sam's pain. He was powerful but 'chasing the bees'
S8 - Cas was powerful again but under the control of Naomi - still he could heal and transport
S9 - Human Cas could hear Angel Radio. Borrowed Grace Cas had a limit on power and it didn't renew
S10 - Cas got his own grace back but still couldn't transport -- that seems permanently gone (pity IMO).  Further, he was cut off from Heaven again.  He stole Metatron and he's cut off from them.  This may or maynot have an impact on his powers but it seems like it could be an issue.
S11 - Cas get torn up inside by Rowena's spell at the end of S10.  He recovers and can heal. Cas then takes on Lucifer and gets Archangel class powers.  Once Lucifer is ripped out by Amara, Cas seems to be back to original recipe Cas but no wings. Still, Heaven "shut it's doors" so is likely still cut off from their power.
S12 - Cas chillin' like a villain' with TFW. He seems slightly less than original recipe Cas IMO.  He had to recover from healing Isham.  Again, I could tie that to Heaven has turned off their booster power spigot (presuming it exists).  Post stabbing with the lance, it could go in any direction.  The lance could have weakened him, breaking the lance could have provided a simple reset, or the lance unleashed some Archangel juice and he got a little.
 

Bottom Line: I think they can say Cas is a little weaker due to being estranged from Heaven and that would fit past canon.  But he clearly recharges so whatever he has, he's not losing anything (at least I don't think so). 

[bettername2come]

I'm amused that Benjamin just wanted to play his video game. I love that shot of three grown men crowding into one side of a booth. I like Lily. She was badass. Isham was a dick. Love that Dean's not mad, he's worried. "Let's drink and hope we can find a better way" should probably be added to the list of Winchester mottoes. 

[Hanahope]

I was always under the impression that angels didn't spend very much time on earth, so when they showed the back flash scene with the angles, I assumed that they just used the same 'vessels' so we'd know who they were, but I didn't understand why Cas was different.  If these angels had always used the same vessles, and had been on earth for over a 100 years, why?  Especially the one angel who hated humans.

Glad that the boys didn't do their usual attack first, ask questions later and found out that it was Isham that was lying.  this show, angels can be worse than demons sometimes.

If Cas was told that a nephilim was so bad, how did heaven (or whatever angel) allow that one nephilim to live so long until Cas killed her for Meta's spell?  and even then, he didn't really want to kill her.

[The Companion]

 

On 2/3/2017 at 9:30 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Was any angel an actual angel, other than Castiel? By which I mean, did they all just have basically human emotions, drives and aspirations after all? It was deeply ironic how Isham was another "ew, apes" guy when he himself was basically the petty villain from a bodice ripper. I get them wanting to tie in to the Nephilim story or rather keep that one on mind but it strained credulity. 

I thought the story itself was fine. A human learning super-angel-magic seems iffy but if you take into account that she powers it with her soul and apparently a soul is a power-source extra-ordinaire, I can see how she might trump an angel short-term. It would strain credulity too much if she could overpower them in general.      

Didn`t mind Alicia Witt`s portrayal. At first she seemed off to me but then I felt that the character wasn`t supposed to be the usual clichés you would come to expect but a bit different here and there. And then it worked much better for me.

 

I actually liked Alicia Witt here. It was funny to see her show up as the polar opposite of the Hallmark Christmas Movie protaganists she typically plays when I see her. She has this sort of flat affect that sometimes works against her in the Christmas movies. She doesn't get super worked up so the meet cute/annoyed with the guy she ends up with scenes don't always work. I thought it actually worked in her favor here as a semi-soulless human. Ultimately, I always find her super likeable and I have never really been able to explain why. 

I did find the character to be difficult to buy. She studied angels and learned that much about them even though people who study supernatural beings for a living have often dismissed the possibility that they even exist? She knows Enochian? whatever. Hand wave.

On 2/3/2017 at 11:45 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

I always fanwanked that it was easier than to refind a host who would be willing to take them in or get their host to take them back in. Once Jimmy found out what it was like, for example, he wasn't going to let Castiel back in at first except for the threat to his daughter. So it's probably easier for the angel to keep their host if they are going to be going back to earth any time soon - or at all even - and especially if they are used to that host body. When the angels first fell at the end of season 8/beginning of season 9 they had a hard time finding hosts, so it would be believable to me that once they found one, they would want to keep ahold of it for convenience's sake.

I actually found it less believable that Gadreel's first host said "yes" again and let him back in so easily after Gadreel got kicked out of Sam. What was in it for him that he'd do that?

The fact that they had these vessels so long was absolutely horrifying to me. I guess Benjamin had some sort of interaction with his host, but the rest of them had such contempt for humans. Some poor person was stuck inside that vessel. 

 

On 2/6/2017 at 10:59 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Also, since Dean is apparently the more antagonistic one with her, why is he the only one who talks to her? Like, why did Sam ask Dean if he heard from her recently? Do they not communicate at all? Right now it seems as if Sam is so zen, he never makes an attempt to contact her and Mary cares so little, she doesn`t reach out either without any prompting. Even John send freaking text messages every now and then and that guy was an asshole a lot of the time.

I find the lack of contact really weird. I suspect this is like when one of them has to act like they don't know what a particular monster is. Still, it is a bizarre writing choice.

Not to defend Mary because she should definitely be making more of an effort, but I don't think she should try to be like John "I faked my own disappearance and refused to tell my sons I was safe or even show up when one of them was dying" Winchester. 

On 2/7/2017 at 6:03 AM, shang yiet said:

I never thought Dean was waiting for mommy to be Suzy Homemaker, I just took it as Dean worried about Mary's safety and Sam's remark as just shorthand for saying that can't be helped since Mary will insist on hunting anyway and won't dream of quitting and being safer at home.

This was how I read it. I do think it was a sloppy and poorly thought out bit of dialogue all around. 

On 2/7/2017 at 12:44 PM, catrox14 said:

I was thinking this as well, which is why Sam's comment at the beginning of this episode was so strange to me.

If it's short-hand for Mary is a hunter, I just don't get why would Yockey frame it around Sam saying Mary isn't going to stay home and cook and punctuating it with the "you know" which is very much a Sam line that is typically said by Sam when Sam kind of certain in his opinions and wanting agreement, whether he's right or wrong. The problem for me is that Dean doesn't need to be lectured or reminded that Mary is a hunter. It's also inconsistent with Dean saying in the Foundry episode that Mary just needs time to get back into hunting and it ignores that Mary was off hunting. So that is giving me some whiplash too. 

It just seems purposeful but I can't figure out the purpose for it's existence. It's either there to be clunky exposition for new viewers, or it's driving a narrative for Mary, Dean or Sam. It just doesn't make sense if that issue is being resolved. Feels like a table setter for more division between Mary, Dean and Sam.

Maybe I am wrong and this all turns into something more, but I am currently falling into the clunky exposition category. It felt like the clunky exposition we typically get at the beginning of an episode. Similar to the "she's in the wind" conversations. They are throw away dialogue to tell us that they won't be addressing the main baddie, Mary, etc. 

On 2/7/2017 at 5:32 PM, Partly said:

One of the things that I really loved about this episode was that Lily's backstory mirrored almost every hunter's backstory ever: Normal person encounters the Supernatural being who terrorizes them/kills their loved one(s), driving that person to become a hunter in order to get revenge or protect others.  In many ways, angels are just another supernatural menace to humans in the Supernatural universe.  It really explains the fear angels have of Nephilim -- after all, a Nephilim would be a being whose power would rival that of angels, but whose allegiance could be to humans.  In many ways, angels are at the top of the supernatural food chain; a Nephilim would change all that.  For that matter, so did human/demon Jesse Turner. Cas said he could vanquish all the angels in Heaven with a single word.  While that much power could be used against humanity, I think the average angel is motivated by self-interest much more than concern for humanity.  

I also thought it was interesting how often it was stressed that Lily wasn't a threat to humans.  Although most hunters are driven by revenge, protecting humans from the supernatural is the number one job of hunters.  Hunters just don't kill humans -- not matter how evil they may be.  The hunters didn't kill Bucky even after they found out what he did to Asa.  Look at how horrified everyone was when Dean, under the influence of the MoC, killed Randy and the lowlifes that had taken Claire --  the thought that he may not have killed them in self-defense was horrifying, no matter how richly they may have deserved to die.  After all, if they would have been supernatural creatures, there would have been no question that Dean should have killed them.  But hunters don't kill people.

Which means that once the actions of the BMoLs comes to light, there's no way anyone will work with them.  While the killing of all supernatural creatures, no matter what could possibly (perhaps) justified, there's no way American hunters are going to stand by and let them kill humans.  

Agreed. I really liked that parallel and that she had no interest in being a threat to humans. Despite the difficult to swallow explanation for how she could know so much about angels and perform their magic, etc., I liked the underlying story and the parallels.

 

On 9/25/2017 at 9:15 PM, bettername2come said:

I'm amused that Benjamin just wanted to play his video game. I love that shot of three grown men crowding into one side of a booth. I like Lily. She was badass. Isham was a dick. Love that Dean's not mad, he's worried. "Let's drink and hope we can find a better way" should probably be added to the list of Winchester mottoes. 

I loved the video game and the visual of the three guys in a booth. 

Lady Castiel (Young Castiel as she is billed on IMDB) was gorgeous. I sorta wanted to explore a different Castiel a bit more. I would have liked to see more contrast. We have watched the character grow over seasons and it would have been interesting to revisit that. 

I really liked the scene where Lily talked about being patient and about Dean being in trouble. I also liked the interaction when they got there and Sam told Dean he changed his mind. 

I didn't love the Dean/Castiel silent treatment scenes, but I did like that there was some fallout for Castiel's decision. 

Overall, this season feels clunky to me. I can't really put my finger on why. Even this one, where I liked the story, didn't quite engage me the way last season's one off episodes did. 

[Katy M]

On 2/26/2020 at 12:58 PM, The Companion said:

I did find the character to be difficult to buy. She studied angels and learned that much about them even though people who study supernatural beings for a living have often dismissed the possibility that they even exist? She knows Enochian? whatever. Hand wave.

That part didn't particularly bother me.  She believed in them.  She studied them. She summoned one.  Not a big deal to me.

But, the rest of the episode was ridiculous.  We learn that apparently there is a mandate taht that Nephilim must be killed. Or at least Cas believed there was.  Why the ruckus in Clip Show then?  He should have been all over that particular trial.  And then the rest of this season will just make an utter mockery of this episode. And since it's all in the same season, it's utterly inexcusable, IMO.