S03.E11: Not Everything's About Annelise

[pennben]

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Mmm... I didn't notice any tears for Frank but even there were... Crocs cry too when they're eating their victims, don't they? She knew Frank was innocent and she still threw him under the bus for Annalise who, for all Laurel knew, might be guilty. Laurel has always been an impeccable actress and this time was no different. 

It would be a fun little tweak if Frank's confession about killing Wes was real even though all of them assume he's lying about it. 

Laurel really teared up when she was clearly (IMO) lying about seeing him walk out of the basement when it's likely that Wes was dead before the fire, she's just assuming saying that seeing him leave corresponds to his "confession" (I think? I just realized with all the various reveals, I've lost track of who know what when!).

Edited February 4, 2017 by pennben

[Tiger]

4 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Asher wasn't in that much of a rush to take the consequences. He called Bonnie-not an ambulance or the police when he killed Sinclair. He helped Bonnie put Sinclair's body in Bonnie's trunk. I'd hardly call him innocent.

He alao put his car in reverse to run over her.  

And Sinclair has been mentioned twice now in the last two eps with Asher in the room and when they show him he has no reaction.  Further, his telling Oliver has was "late to the party" regarding Sam skews the fact that while he actually killed a woman,Connor and Michaela were forced into a cover-up.  They continue to show remorse for their "crimes" while Asher has never shown any for his actual crimes.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

13 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Because Rebecca and her potential blabbermouth was a liability to Annalise. But there were many options available to ensure that Rebecca kept her mouth shut (paying her a shitload of money to leave way, waaaaaay out of town comes to mind) that didn't involve snuffing her out, so the fact that Bonnie immediately went with that just to protect Annalise has me constantly side-eyeing her mental stability. Wes was essentially turning into the same problem Rebecca was, so I find it very likely that she took care of him the same way she did Rebecca.

There was no chance that Rebecca would keep her mouth shut. She was just an ungrateful little bitch in basically the best of circumstances.  Sure, she slept with Wes after he saved her life, but there didn't seem to be anything close to love from her to him. Even before she had been kidnapped, Rebecca loved trolling people. Sam, the M4, her supposed best friend Lila, even AK, the person trying to keep her ass out of jail. And she had dirt on the M4 and AK. No matter how much Rebecca got paid off, what she might have been threatened with, she was not going to go quietly into the night.

I don't think Wes was anywhere in the same category as Rebecca. He could be reasoned with and trusted overall.

[Lady Calypso]

7 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Asher wasn't in that much of a rush to take the consequences. He called Bonnie-not an ambulance or the police when he killed Sinclair. He helped Bonnie put Sinclair's body in Bonnie's trunk. I'd hardly call him innocent.

Asher's never been my favourite, but they've always kept him as the comic relief character above all else, except during this arc of his, which only really lasted a couple of episodes. I honestly attributed these specific actions as really bad shock; for me, I could tell it was shock by Matt McGorry's acting during those scenes. And, as pointed out above, his dad probably taught him to call a lawyer before all else. Yes, he chose wrong, and yes he is accountable for his actions, which is why I said above that he's still just as bad as the rest of them. 

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

And Sinclair has been mentioned twice now in the last two eps with Asher in the room and when they show him he has no reaction.  Further, his telling Oliver has was "late to the party" regarding Sam skews the fact that while he actually killed a woman,Connor and Michaela were forced into a cover-up.  They continue to show remorse for their "crimes" while Asher has never shown any for his actual crimes.  

Asher's shown remorse for a bit, but the show wants Asher to stay as comic relief, in my opinion. I mean, I saw a reaction from him when Sinclair's name was mentioned this episode. I don't know; they keep dropping the ball with Asher because they seem to want him to remain the funny guy in a sea of drama and despair, but he really can't because he did kill someone in a moment of emotional distress and his morals did tell him to go to the police, but then he never did because of Annalise and Bonnie, and then he believed that he didn't need to go, just like Wes and Laurel. Hell, now even Michaela refuses to go. 

All of them pretty much suck for not going to police at any point. Remorse or not, they chose this path so they all have to live with the consequences. Look at the predicament Oliver's in. But ultimately, he won't go to the police because then everyone would be arrested and the show would be over. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Interesting how Laurel didn't want to answer the question of when she knew she was pregnant. You'd think it'd be real clear to the hospital though. It's still odd to me why the show is being so vague about it. Well, except for the part where I think Frank is the daddy.

Ditto comments upthread, I'm starting to have my doubts about Maggie. Maybe she killed Wes in a fit of jealousy over Laurel? Still, I'm looking askance at Bonnie too.

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That prosecutor has to be the most annoying prosecutor of all time. There's a desperation to her that I don't get - she seems desperate to have sex with Nate, she seems desperate to get back at Analise, she seems desperate to have lunch....I don't know ...something about her always seems weird. The weirdness I can forgive. The desperation, not so much.  

I think it's the wig. She's trying to mask her wig shame with desperation. Rabbit sex, prosecutorial overreach, whatever works.

[Milaxx]

25 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

 

8 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Asher wasn't in that much of a rush to take the consequences. He called Bonnie-not an ambulance or the police when he killed Sinclair. He helped Bonnie put Sinclair's body in Bonnie's trunk. I'd hardly call him innocent.

Asher's never been my favourite, but they've always kept him as the comic relief character above all else, except during this arc of his, which only really lasted a couple of episodes. I honestly attributed these specific actions as really bad shock; for me, I could tell it was shock by Matt McGorry's acting during those scenes. And, as pointed out above, his dad probably taught him to call a lawyer before all else. Yes, he chose wrong, and yes he is accountable for his actions, which is why I said above that he's still just as bad as the rest of them. 

 

 Agreed, I don't find Asher any more sympathetic than any of the rest of them. If anything the fallout of what he did to Tiffany at the Lake should have taught him more taking responsibility for his actions. It didn't he did the same thing he did then. He called for help and then followed exactly what they said in order to cover it up. Sure Asher's funny because he is used as comic relief, but that doesn't make him any less bad than the rest of them.

 

48 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

 

Interesting how Laurel didn't want to answer the question of when she knew she was pregnant. You'd think it'd be real clear to the hospital though. It's still odd to me why the show is being so vague about it. Well, except for the part where I think Frank is the daddy.

 

I think the show is intentionally setting us up for a "who's the daddy" moment. I could even see how they would do it. Many think Laurel slept with Frank that night he came back anyway. 

[Tiger]

Do Connor and/or Michaela even know that Asher murdered Sinclair?  

[Lady Calypso]

29 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Do Connor and/or Michaela even know that Asher murdered Sinclair?  

Yeah, they found out when Bonnie and Asher were dragging the body into the Hapstall's home. It's why they tried to refuse to help until Annalise told Asher about Sam to blackmail them into helping Asher. 

[Milaxx]

That's not what I am saying or implying. I have no  issue with the Waurel pairing other than it felt a bit rushed. As it stands I also believe Laurel is carrying We's child. What I am saying is I think the whole "who's the daddy" questioning is intentional or the part of the writers.

[Joimiaroxeu]

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There's something unsavoury to me about the investment in this speculation, far beyond the point of rationality. But then again, I've always found the strong knee-jerk dislike for the Wes/Laurel relationship to be tinged with subconscious, or maybe not-so-much subconscious anti-blackness, anti-interracial relationships, and the products (babies) of said relationships.  

FWIW, my belief that Frank is the father has zero do with whether or not I liked the Wes and Laurel's relationship, or any issue with interracial relationships in general, or with the children produced in such relationships. I just happen to think it's too easy that Wes has been assumed to be the father while Laurel is still being kind of cagey about when she got pregnant. Laurel hates Frank and I think she absolutely would not want to have a baby by him, to the point of deliberately sleeping with Wes so she could pin the kid on him. I think she would be fine with sending Frank to prison just to keep him away from her (and his) kid. Frank is a serial killer.

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I think the show is intentionally setting us up for a "who's the daddy" moment.

If they are I don't think they're trying very hard. However, I've watched enough soap operas to know that Laurel's having spent a night with Frank recently--within the window of conception--is an opening. It's unclear whether or not the writers will use it but I think it's an option they've subtly left on the table.

[Milaxx]

People also still want to believe Wes was AK's secret love child. Which makes me throw up a little every time I think about that bathroom scene from first season.  While I believe the writer's, I think they also like to make us question that truth, even when that questioning doesn't make sense when you really pull it apart. 

[jvr]

The uncomfortable persistence in telling people what they feel and think is making me uncomfortable.

I've never been more happy Wes is dead. And I'm kind of hoping for a fall down the stairs for Laurel no matter who the father of this baby is.

The prison scenes remind me of a less funny or interesting Orange is the New Black. I'm over them and hope Anna is out of jail soon, please. But I would like to see Frank in some jail scenes though lol, I think that would be interesting. 

The recent talk about Asher has me wanting more serious examination of his character. He has had moments of sincerity, mostly dealing with the definition of his personal romantic relationships (he was the same with Bonnie wasn't he?). Anyway, I want more!

Regarding who did us all a favor and killed Wes (haha, he has seemed much better now that he is dead, but I think thats cause we know he is dead), Bonnie is off my list because they hinted so hard it was her. Frank, because we all think he didn't do it, would be awesome if he did. But people, the person who killed him was....Laurel! She is a psycho! And a damn good liar and actress. That's where my money is. The only one we know for sure it's not is Michaela and Asher.

eta: I know Laurel as the killer doesn't make sense timeline wise but I like to throw her out there as the killer every time someone ask me who I think did it. lol Personally I don't think anyone in the K4 can be the murderer because it would destroy the group, unless they reveal it to us, the audience, but not the group.

Edited February 4, 2017 by jvr

[Milaxx]

I don't have any issue with uncomfortable discussions. I come here to discuss and challenge my thoughts and opinions on the show. If I wasn't interested in a discussion, I could just write a blog or keep a diary. Conversations get uncomfortable when they hit close to home, when they touch a nerve that makes us question if that statement is true or not. I think we *should* want to be made uncomfortable from time to time. Otherwise, how to we grow and learn? Wanting to avoid being uncomfortable and facing some ugly truths is what has gotten this country in the situation it's in now. It certainly has gotten the K5 deeper and deeper in trouble.  I think the show wants us to question things. It's part of why the mysteries are doled out bit by bit with the flashbacks and flashforwards filling in more and more information and constantly reshaping the narrative. 

So yes, Laurel being responsible for Wes's death would be an interesting plot development.  However I'm still waiting for the show to look at who blew the house up and why? Was it Frank on AK's instructions? Was it Hannah out of vengeance, Levi, the Hapstal sister, the unseen first wife? Why is there still no mention of a report from the Fire Commissioner? They charged AK with Arson & First Degree on the national guy of the Fire with no official report. Are we to assume that happened off screen? They arrested her the night of the fire. Doesn't it take days for an official report?

Edited February 4, 2017 by Milaxx

[Milaxx]

1 minute ago, doram said:

 

Speaking of the couple, while Michaela was clearly the MVP in this episode, I have to give Asher props for being a silent MVP as well. 

Asher's best moment was when he came in as Gustav, saw it wasn't working, stopped and actually used his words to thank Micheala and explain he was trying to comfort her. That's growth on his part as opposed to trying to police her emotions. Scenes like that are when I like the Asher & Micheala pairing.

5 minutes ago, doram said:

Quick question, since I'm too lazy to rewatch on ABC.com, but do we actually see Annalise send the message to the K-5 to come to her house? Or do we just see them receive the message?

I'll double check later today, but I think we see her call and talk to Oliver, but send text to everyone else.

[Aquarius97]

21 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

Asher's best moment was when he came in as Gustav, saw it wasn't working, stopped and actually used his words to thank Micheala and explain he was trying to comfort her. That's growth on his part as opposed to trying to police her emotions. Scenes like that are when I like the Asher & Micheala pairing.

I'll double check later today, but I think we see her call and talk to Oliver, but send text to everyone else.

AK called Laurel and told her to reunite the K5 in her house. Laurel couldn't find Connor, and Asher was really drunked to leave his apartment. Now I'm wondering why Laurel didn't call Michaela.

[Milaxx]

Because when they left Micheala she was with her mother.  Remember Asher took both Laurel & Connor out of her apartment so they could talk. They went their separate ways, Connor to hook up with Thomas, Asher & Laurel to the dorms. Laurel left when AK called, but Asher was too drunk and passed out.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Milaxx

[Aquarius97]

One thing that we have been missing: In 3x09, AK told Oliver to hack DA's office before Wes' death. In yesterday's episode, he is told by Michaela to hack DA's office, so they found out about Rebecca's death and the whole investigation on AK. Which makes me thing, Oliver should have already known about Rebecca's death and all the dirty on the K5, so we should assume that Oliver didn't hack DA's office when AK told him. Why?

[Blue Plastic]

On 2/3/2017 at 10:01 AM, starri said:

My wacky theory this week is that Meggy is the one who killed him.

I've kind of been suspicious of her since the midseason finale.  But it's probably just a red herring since they had her looking at Laurel with a sneaky facial expression in this episode, along with the Bonnie and Frank (likely) red herrings they tossed out.  Oliver having that thumb drive makes him suspicion-worthy too.  I hope the culprit reveal will be interesting and not turn out to be a boring peripheral character (IMO) like Hannah or some rando who spotted Wes walking into Annaliese's house.

Not really digging Annaliese being in jail for this many episodes but I guess it gives me a touch of "Orange is the New Black" and "Wentworth" while those shows are not available to watch, LOL.  IANAL but I have a feeling this is not the way the law works...  Anyway, if Annaliese wanted to murder Wes, why would she burn up her house with him in it (or kill him and then burn up her house)?  Much better for her if he got run over on the other side of town or something like that.

Asher being "Gustav" actually made me smile.  Why?  I hate myself!

[jvr]

@Aquarius97 Hacking is not magic, he would have to sorta know what he is looking for. What did Anna ask him to get in 3x09? Just to see what the DAs office had because they were investigating? He might not have seen all this information at that point, not knowing what he is looking for. This time he was looking specifically into the case they had on Anna. That's my guess, don't think there is anything there to be suspicious about. I only remember him reading articles about Sam around that time because of Connor being an idiot and hinting hard at stuff, so maybe he didn't hack into them at all when she asked.

@Milaxx lol, you are obsessed with this fire. I'm trying not to think too hard about it because it doesn't make sense. When they arrest Anna they said it was for arson. Like, how the fuck do you know this was arson, the fire just happened! It's the same night! Also first degree murder...ummm...the autopsy hasn't even been done yet. This shit is stupid. They mention a tip, did this tip come in before the fire and murder? 2 seconds after? The anonymous tip must just be a lie. They also arrest her before they identify who the damn victim is officially. The more I think about this the more I think, lets just watch and not try and figure it out. :)

Anyway, the fire is a big part of this mystery that most, besides you (lol), are not focused on. I guess I just assume the person who killed Wes started the fire but that could be totally wrong. The murderer and fire starter could be separate people. Hell, the fire starter could have not even known Wes was there. And has it been confirmed it was a bomb (or gas explosion) by the authorities? As we have seen, Anna has pissed a lot of people off, it could really be anyone for the fire while Wes is probably personal.

eta: I'm guessing the fire starter is the person Laurel claims to see running away. That person did not kill Wes, someone else did. My guess for fire starter...Connor. :)

Edited February 4, 2017 by jvr

[Joimiaroxeu]

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The uncomfortable persistence in telling people what they feel and think is making me uncomfortable.

Thank you. I'm not sure the sentiment is registering though, or what the difference is between opinions and facts.

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The prison scenes remind me of a less funny or interesting Orange is the New Black. I'm over them and hope Anna is out of jail soon, please.

I feel the same way. I love Viola and am happy to see her get ALL THE AWARDS but these prison scenes are starting to smell like Emmy bait to me. Her skill speaks for itself, IMO, and neither she nor the writers need to sink to such moves. It's probably also a redemption story arc but it'll likely take more than a few weeks in jail for all of Annalise's sins to be washed away, lol.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Joimiaroxeu
i can haz grammar

[Tiger]

I love the jail scenes in large part because I love L. Scott Caldwell because I adored her character Rose on Lost.  And I am buying into the speculation that she is a plant, though an undercover cop as opposed to a Mahoney mole.  

I agree with the poster above who said it's important to have uncomfortable conversations.  The way our society is rapidly heading with only some opinions and views allowed to be expressed, and some discussions prohibited is downright scary.  

As far as Wes and Michaela being the most disliked characters while four white characters are actu killers, first off Sam didnt actually kill anyone, and of the four killers on the show three are white (Bonnie, Frank, and Asher) and one is black (Wes). Second, while Wes is a pretty polarizing character, Michaela seems to be primarily liked, no more or less than most of the other characters.  Third, this notion that a character shouldn't be portrayed negatively or disliked by the audiance is in and of racist IMHO.  For example, I dont like Oliver because I think he's whiney. Should I not he allowed to dislike him because he's a minority? 

As far as the timeline of Annalise texting the K5, I believe someone screenshoted when she texted Laural and it was sometime in the afternoon, around 4ish.  And while Frank was following Wes and Laural entered the house the sun was up, when iy blew up it was definitvely night.  So there is some time unaccounted for the producers to play with.  

[Milaxx]

11 hours ago, Tiger said:

Do Connor and/or Michaela even know that Asher murdered Sinclair?  

Michaela definitely does. She mentioned it to Asher after he went off on Connor.

6 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Thank you. I'm not sure the sentiment registering though, or what the difference is between opinions and facts....

Pointing out subtle, perhaps unconscious thoughts or opinions isn't stating them as facts. It's introducing a concept that may not   be apparent from our individual pov. For a while back in the first half of the season there were several posters going super negative on Michaela in a way I would describe as biased. Including somehow trying to paint her as homophobic. I don't think it's wrong to challenge those opinions.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Milaxx

[secnarf]

4 hours ago, doram said:

@Joimiaroxeu

 

Laurel wasn't cagey about when she got pregnant. Unless I'm missing something? I remember her being cagey to Nate about when she knew she was pregnant because he was trying to dismantle Frank's Confession. As Laurel didn't know she was pregnant before the fire, then Frank couldn't have murdered Wes for a motivation that didn't exist. Laurel didn't know Frank had confessed at the time but she started being (rightfully) paranoid when she caught on to Nate's not so subtle interrogation.

As for pinning Frank's baby on Wes... I mean, with all due respect...  Come on.  Was she drinking through Annalise's stash at the finals exam for a baby she intended to birth? Is she trying to pin an at least 4 months pregnancy on a relationship that isn't a month old? Is she going to pass a white baby as a black/biracial child? 

And why use the term *easy to assume the baby is Wes'*? There was never any speculation about the baby's paternity. Or at least, there won't have been if - as I've observed - there doesn't seem to be this uncomfortable persistence with questioning the Waurel relationship or the Waurel baby. But there seems an urgent need to turn it into a *mystery*. Why? Maybe because the reality of the story (interracial romance) was uncomfortable for reasons I've mentioned, be them subconscious or deliberate biases? 

Like it or not, a lot of these biases play into how media is represented *and* consumed. Denying them isn't productive. Recognising, challenging and reforming them is the only way ahead. 

I think the writers left the door open for Laurel to have slept with Frank when he came back - they heavily implied it but didn't actually show it. As has been discussed at length, the timing of this doesn't quite match - it would be pretty tight and stretch the boundaries of what is plausible - but it's not impossible. I for one will be annoyed if the baby turns out to be Frank's, and I think all of this discussion is rather pointless because it should be rather obvious once (if?) the baby is born. I don't think anybody is saying that she was pregnant with Frank's baby before he left. That is ridiculous for the reasons you outlined.

I think there has been a great deal of speculation about the baby's paternity, since it was revealed Laurel is pregnant. Even in the show, Laurel had to explicitly state that the baby is Wes'. So yes, people are assuming at this point that the baby is Wes' and it is easy to do because everything in the story has pointed in that direction. With this show, you have to be skeptical of everything, though. There is very little that can be taken at face value, including Laurel saying that the baby is Wes'. I would like to believe her, but you never know.

I don't think this has anything to do with them being an interracial relationship. Now let me tell you a story: a couple of days ago, there was a news story in my area about a six year old girl who was handcuffed at school (not physically injured). The first article I read about this describes how the police have been called before to the school for this kid, that she was biting and kicking and punching, etc and they were unable to calm her down. The mother claims that her daughter is too small and 'a girl' and therefore unable to harm anyone and therefore should not have been handcuffed (which I strongly disagree with). Basically, from the article, I was seriously questioning the mom's story, and from the facts in the article, I was pretty much on the school's side, while recognizing that all of the facts may not be apparent in the article. I assumed this was a white child (which IS an example of unconscious bias). Near the end of the article, after having formed my initial opinions, the article went on to mention that the child is black and the mom is claiming racism has played a factor in this. After learning the child's race, my initial opinions didn't change. The story was still the same with respect to the child's and police's behaviour. If they had stated in the beginning of the article that the child was black, there are people who would be absolutely convinced that my opinions were rooted in racism and nothing I could say would be able to convince them otherwise. Unconscious racism and biases do exist, but it is wrong to blame every opinion on this. (After reading other articles to try and gain more facts, I'm questioning my initial opinions, but that is beside the point).

People are allowed to dislike a black character without it being racism, even if that character is not universally disliked. People are allowed to find a relationship unbelievable whether or not it is interracial, without it being due to racism. That's not to say that these issues aren't problems, but it's like the boy who cried wolf. If you tell people repeatedly that their opinions only exist because they are unconsciously or consciously racist, nobody is going to pay any attention when these biases actually do have an impact.

3 hours ago, doram said:

The Waurel paternity baby debate has made me extremely uncomfortable for a while. As well as the fact that in a show where the most cold-blooded murders have all been committed by White people - Sam, Frank, Bonnie, Asher, the characters most loathed are two Black ones - Wes and Michaela. 

Laurel as the murderer actually makes sense. They were already fighting and she was drunk. If they met up at Annalise's house and the fight had continued, in her intoxicated state, any number of accidents could have happened. She might have shoved him down the steps. She might have hit him, he fell and cracked his skull against something. When I watched the episode, I got the strong impression that Annalise had burnt down her own house for some cathartic reason and Wes (and Laurel) were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. That may still be true. 

It would be the height of irony if the two people who cared the most of Wes were the ones responsible for his death. 

I think this is very likely. Laurel has shown herself to be an excellent actor (this is part of the reason I couldn't buy her relationship with Wes - I always felt like she was acting). I did buy her devastation at finding out Wes was dead, though, which is the part that's not adding up for me. I don't think she was faking that. She may be remorseful for killing him, but I don't know that she actually knew he was dead until the scene we saw.

Also - I love Laurel and Michaela being friends.

[Joimiaroxeu]

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 I don't think it's wrong to challenge those opinions.

I don't either but AFAIC one really can't presume to know another person's "unconscious thoughts" via a few sentences on an internet board. So I think it's  probably safer to to use language where one indicates one is expressing one's own opinion and that they recognize others are entitled to theirs. I think it's possible to challenge opinions one doesn't agree without mocking them or declaring them wrong because they don't line up one's own views. (I would make a exception for clear expressions of racism, homophobia, etc., but still, sometimes it's just a matter of someone not knowing any better or people just interpreting things differently.)

In written form this show would be considered a mystery. There are a number of plot points afloat that I think seem certain but have some wiggle room. As I mentioned upthread, I've watched enough soap operas (and read enough mysteries) to recognize possible feints. I guess eventually the truths will be revealed unless the writers hate us and just enjoy watching us suffer. Witness all the debate they caused about which character would end up dead. (And now there's speculation that Wes is still alive...?)

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 it should be rather obvious once (if?) the baby is born.

Maybe not since Wes' father is White. The baby could look more like Laurel's side of gene pool. Whatever, I doubt the baby will be born.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Joimiaroxeu

[Nanrad]

Now that I think about it, I don't think Waurel gets hate because it's an interracial romance especially when there's literally another interracial romance on the show as well that gets far less criticism. The primary criticism of this relationship is centered around Asher as well with very understandable critiques. Truth be told, when it comes to black and white romances, the pairing that suffers the most from racists criticisms are the ones where it's black women paired with white men. These criticisms usually consist of saying the black woman's character would be ruined by a romance, she's too ________, why can't men and women be friends, and so forth all while pairing the white man with anyone non black woman who breathed in his direction. On average, far less are said about black men with white women and non black women. Ironically, that is not the case in HTGAWM and I highly doubt the criticism towards Waurel has anything to do with race.

In present day, how often have we seen a BM/WW pairing criticized on the level of BW/WW or any other interracial relationship where the WW is paired with a non white man? I could provide several current examples of this and, I believe, there has been articles written about this phenomena as well. It really doesn't hold water when you think about regarding this show.

Truth be told, Wes is a poorly construed character who behaved very hypocritical and holier than thou as if he didn't have skeletons of his own even if they were understandable. People disliked Wes because he prioritized a girl who he barely knew, which constantly jeopardized the case and investigation they were working. He's done tons of shit that justifiably annoyed most people. Who can honestly argue that Wes is disliked for no reason??? Who can honestly the only reason he's this disliked is because of race?

Hell, even the doubt of paternity isn't because of the interracial relationship but because Laurel and Frank were caught up with one another since the beginning of the series--like actual fucking not undertones of feelings. The night he stayed over was played ambiguously. It was leading. If Michaela were to get pregnant, no one would question the paternity. Now, if that happened, then yes, I could understand the claims of racism, but when it comes to Laurel, Wes, and Frank--it makes complete sensed that's because the series set it up this way.

There are people who do dislike Michaela, but in this episode a lot of them were like "HELL YEAH!" We can say this is one episode, which would be true. But, I do believe the criticism has died down since the first season. But, overall, when it comes to this show, many of the characters are morally gray. Even if you take out the worst ones, there is no true "good" person here. 

[jvr]

I'm extremely uncomfortable that anyone thinks Michaela is close to the most hated character on this board...that honor obviously goes to Connor now that Wes is dead. :) Is there anything he does now that doesn't piss everyone off (or is it just me)? Runner up to him is Oliver for sure. Has there been a character that has gone from loved to hate so quickly? Oliver got more hate for that Stanford shit than anyone got for murdering someone lol. 

Anyway, y'all making me feel good about my Laurel prediction. I would love to be right, the writers could make it fit but I feel they would have to play fast and loose with the timeline a little. I feel sometimes that she and Frank got along so well because they are both crazy. Laurel is that scary smart calculating crazy, don't know what she is thinking. Which regarding this: 

53 minutes ago, secnarf said:

Also - I love Laurel and Michaela being friends.

I like it too mostly, because I think it would make for interesting interactions and scenes. They are both very smart and I'd like to see how they work together. But I also think Michaela should watch her back and remember how Laurel treated her during the Sam coverup. But Michaela has shown us she is a forgive and forget girl (Connor).

18 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

(And now there's speculation that Wes is still alive...?)

For real, this type of speculation makes me extremely uncomfortable! NOooooooooo! We have been told that we should stop speculating once the writers tell us something, and they told us he is dead. So he is dead. :)

When it comes to the firestarter or murderer, I just don't want it to be some randos we have never really seen. The Mahoneys or any other people I barely remember will be a waste of time.

[Nanrad]

It switches between Connor and Oliver as to who I dislike more. lol. All of the whining and self-centeredness. *groans*

ETA: Wes annoyed me, but he was far more tolerable than Connor. 

Edited February 4, 2017 by Nanrad

[Tiger]

Connor is still my favorite, and I'm extremely comfortable with that being an apparantly-increasingly unpopular opinion.

Look, opinions are like ass holes; everybody has them.

That said, I continue to hate Oliver with the fury of a thousand suns and want his whiney ass off the damn show.  

ETA: this show is so batshitcrazy that if it was revealed Mama Harkness has been working with DA Denver and Laural to fake Wes' death in order to lure out some baddie, I would't blink and would love every minute of it.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Tiger

[Milaxx]

25 minutes ago, jvr said:

I'm extremely uncomfortable that anyone thinks Michaela is close to the most hated character on this board...that honor obviously goes to Connor now that Wes is dead. :) Is there anything he does now that doesn't piss everyone off (or is it just me)? Runner up to him is Oliver for sure. Has there been a character that has gone from loved to hate so quickly? Oliver got more hate for that Stanford shit than anyone got for murdering someone lol. 

Anyway, y'all making me feel good about my Laurel prediction. I would love to be right, the writers could make it fit but I feel they would have to play fast and loose with the timeline a little. I feel sometimes that she and Frank got along so well because they are both crazy. Laurel is that scary smart calculating crazy, don't know what she is thinking. Which regarding this: 

I like it too mostly, because I think it would make for interesting interactions and scenes. They are both very smart and I'd like to see how they work together. But I also think Michaela should watch her back and remember how Laurel treated her during the Sam coverup. But Michaela has shown us she is a forgive and forget girl (Connor).

For real, this type of speculation makes me extremely uncomfortable! NOooooooooo! We have been told that we should stop speculating once the writers tell us something, and they told us he is dead. So he is dead. :)

When it comes to the firestarter or murderer, I just don't want it to be some randos we have never really seen. The Mahoneys or any other people I barely remember will be a waste of time.

*raises hand* I still like Connor. I also still like Oliver. In fact as dysfunctional and codependent as they are, I still like them as a couple. TBH Rebecca was/is the only character I disliked on this show.

[starri]

11 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

*raises hand* I still like Connor. I also still like Oliver. In fact as dysfunctional and codependent as they are, I still like them as a couple. TBH Rebecca was/is the only character I disliked on this show.

Second.

[jvr]

@Milaxx For sure the MOST HATED CHARACTER OF ALL TIME was and will forever be Rebecca...just reading her name brings back so much hate. Her and Wes together was the most horrible shit ever. 

Edited February 4, 2017 by jvr

[secnarf]

I like that in an episode called 'Not Everything's About Annalise', she really is as far from the focus of discussion as she's ever been.

It's as if she's being sidelined. We've seen her, but not enough to really get what her thoughts are on the situation. We know some, but she's just kind of "there" without being involved.

I wonder what the end game is with her. She can't stay in jail forever. Also, I dislike mopey Annalise (although it is understandable given the circumstances).

[Aquarius97]

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

As far as the timeline of Annalise texting the K5, I believe someone screenshoted when she texted Laural and it was sometime in the afternoon, around 4ish.  And while Frank was following Wes and Laural entered the house the sun was up, when iy blew up it was definitvely night.  So there is some time unaccounted for the producers to play with.  

The exact time when Laurel entered in AK's house was 10:12 PM. We still have more than 5 hours of blank space between Wes leaving Frank's car (Wes received AK's call at 4:21 PM, and he left the station a few minutes later) and the explosion

[RedheadZombie]

6 hours ago, doram said:

The Waurel paternity baby debate has made me extremely uncomfortable for a while. As well as the fact that in a show where the most cold-blooded murders have all been committed by White people - Sam, Frank, Bonnie, Asher, the characters most loathed are two Black ones - Wes and Michaela. 

Laurel as the murderer actually makes sense. They were already fighting and she was drunk. If they met up at Annalise's house and the fight had continued, in her intoxicated state, any number of accidents could have happened. She might have shoved him down the steps. She might have hit him, he fell and cracked his skull against something. When I watched the episode, I got the strong impression that Annalise had burnt down her own house for some cathartic reason and Wes (and Laurel) were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. That may still be true. 

It would be the height of irony if the two people who cared the most of Wes were the ones responsible for his death. 

I don't think it's wrong to challenge people with these questions, but it's fair that some feel attacked.  Personally, I challenge myself all the time.  I love Wes, so it doesn't bother me that I'm not crazy about Michaela.  I was a little bothered that I don't like Connor and Oliver - am I an unconscious homophobe?  Then I remember my problem.  Connor is a whiny asshole, and Oliver always looks like he's confused, scared, or needs to pee.  I think that actor is the weakest - by far - of the cast.

My favorites are Wes, Laurel, and Bonnie.  So I'm not going to analyze my preferences too hard. 

[jhlipton]

Just now, doram said:

{}n a show where the most cold-blooded murders have all been committed by White people - Sam, Frank, Bonnie, Asher, the characters most loathed are two Black ones - Wes and Michaela. 

From what I've seen, the most loathed characters were
Rebecca
Sam
Rebecca
Connor
Mahoney Sr
Rebecca
Rebecca
Rebecca.

Bonnie should get a medal for shutting Rebecca's pie-hole.

Just now, jvr said:

@Milaxx For sure the MOST HATED CHARACTER OF ALL TIME was and will forever be Rebecca...just reading her name brings back so much hate. Her and Wes together was the most horrible shit ever. 

See above.

[Keepitmoving]

3 hours ago, Milaxx said:

*raises hand* I still like Connor. I also still like Oliver. In fact as dysfunctional and codependent as they are, I still like them as a couple. TBH Rebecca was/is the only character I disliked on this show.

I still like him too, and what will make me continue to like him will be more of what Michaela gave him in this episode. I just want to see him get put in his place from time to time, they all need that, and when he hardly every gets it, that's what makes him unlikable. Because let's face it, these characters are pretty fucked up, LOL, some more than others but...

They are all very flawed and have all irked the shit out of me at various times including my favorite, Michaela. They're freaking annoying just like your average human beings in real life can be.  I say I hated Wes, but what I really hated was that he was Anna's favorite, I was jealous on behalf of the characters I was most invested in that he was the favorite puppy LOL, that's the honesty of it. I don't think I really hated him, I hated the attention he was given. I know why he was given attention, but I don't care, after a while, I didn't like it and it went on for three damn seasons. I was over it.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

4 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

 

Quote

 I don't think it's wrong to challenge those opinions.

I don't either but AFAIC one really can't presume to know another person's "unconscious thoughts" via a few sentences on an internet board. So I think it's  probably safer to to use language where one indicates one is expressing one's own opinion and that they recognize others are entitled to theirs. I think it's possible to challenge opinions one doesn't agree without mocking them or declaring them wrong because they don't line up one's own views. (I would make a exception for clear expressions of racism, homophobia, etc., but still, sometimes it's just a matter of someone not knowing any better or people just interpreting things differently.)

 

I haven't seen any outright instances of this. What I have seen are instances of posters citing things are are more grey area or microagressions; those subtle little things that often are clear expressions of racism and since this is a discussion board, simply re-phrasing or clarifying  would help to further the conversation.

7 hours ago, jvr said:

@Milaxx lol, you are obsessed with this fire.

I am because without the fire commissioner report charging AK makes no sense, much less holding her for days. It may all end up be me perseverating on nothing, but it does indeed low key annoy me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

6 hours ago, Tiger said:

 

I love the jail scenes in large part because I love L. Scott Caldwell because I adored her character Rose on Lost.  And I am buying into the speculation that she is a plant, though an undercover cop as opposed to a Mahoney mole.  

 

I adore her too, but unless she is a plant (like that idea) I think this role is a waste of her talent. TBH I find the entire prison set up to be a little bit of a cliche. It feels like TPTB wanted to do their riff on OITNB and Viola wanted to flex her acting chops aka Emmy bait. 

5 hours ago, doram said:

Sam asked Frank to kill Laurel which makes him her murderer legally and morally. That's also why Frank is being charged along with Annalise now - his confession won't get her off if the DA can prove that Annalise asked him to murder Wes.

(Assuming you meant Lila and not Laurel here) Not only did Sam ask Frank to kill Lila, he blackmailed him into killing her. 

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I don't think it's wrong to challenge people with these questions, but it's fair that some feel attacked.

I guess what I'm hoping is that people won't feel attacked but rather respond either to clarify or question. 

and with that said. I'm off to binge season 2 cause I swear there's a clue as to what Bonnie's end game is this season. LOL, I know I'm obsessed.

[DearEvette]

I am currently angry at Connor.  I don't hate him, I am mad at him.  And I want to slap him upside the head.  But it would be a frustrated "get your shit together' slap. With an added thump to say 'stop being a bitch to Michaela.'

My most loathed character in the history of the show is definitely Rebecca with ADA SInclair a close second and Oliver a distant third. 

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I am because without the fire commissioner report charging AK makes no sense, much less holding her for days. It may all end up be me perseverating on nothing, but it does indeed low key annoy me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm with you and it's hard to take any of this seriously other than the story must be about the systematic railroading of black folks in the justice system no matter how far up the economic ladder they may be. Because WTF? I posted days ago once Anna had her hearing that resulted in no bail and all Atwood showed was the paper work that Wes was the informant/witness.  I was like and? Where the hell is the report from the fire freaking department that shows evidence of arson?  Because apparently Wes did "not" die before the fire, and in "fact," he died because of it. Or are we dealing in alternative facts in Shondaland as well? LOL Again, what in the hell is Norwalk doing? Why is he making Bonnie and everyone else including Anna look stupid? I know he must think we the viewers are stupid, but I don't get how you could claim that the victim died in a fire via arson, yet not bring to court any scientific evidence to prove that during the bail hearing? Worse, the judge doesn't ask for any scientific evidence, and the worst of all,the defendant's counsel doesn't bring it up either. WTF folks? Someone please help me understand. Is that counsel only has to prove motive for bail to be denied at a bail hearing? Maybe that's it and that's fucked up if it is.

Wait, even with the motive that Atwood presented, did she prove that Anna knew about that paperwork listing Wes as the informant? I saw the paper work but how on earth did she show that Anna had any idea, or got a hold of that information?

Edited February 5, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[secnarf]

20 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Wait, even with the motive that Atwood presented, did she prove that Anna knew about that paperwork listing Wes as the informant? I saw the paper work but how on earth did she show that Anna had any idea, or got a hold of that information?

I believe she speculated that Wes told her? Or maybe I am making that up.

I agree that the whole premise of Annalise's arrest is ridiculous, though.

[jhlipton]

Anna being charged as "co-conspirator" is as stupid as anything else.  Once they charged Frank, unless they had good solid evidence that Anna was in any way involved (when the opposite was true), they should have been forced to let her go.  But the writers changed the rules at he last minute, showing this was about PLOT!!! and nothing else.

[Happytobehere]

21 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Asher wasn't in that much of a rush to take the consequences. He called Bonnie-not an ambulance or the police when he killed Sinclair. He helped Bonnie put Sinclair's body in Bonnie's trunk. I'd hardly call him innocent.

Exactly, but why deal with facts when Annalise can be the scapegoat.

[helenamonster]

I really don't think there's any question to the paternity of Laurel's fetus anymore. Laurel is confident it's Wes's and hasn't even entertained the idea that it might be Frank's. The first half of the season became a little misleading when he stayed over at her house and there was a window for them to have slept together offscreen, but I feel like if the show wanted there to be a "who's the daddy," we'd have gotten a flashback to Laurel and Frank sleeping together by now. It's Wes's, and I doubt we'll ever even see it anyway.

I do like the idea of Laurel killing Wes, and I think they could make it work with the timeline. A lot of us seem to want all of the major characters to murder someone, and I feel like everyone should get at least one notch in their belt until other people start going back for seconds, so that would eliminate Frank, Bonnie, and Asher. My current theory is that it was an accident: Laurel and Wes got into it again, and she accidentally pushed him down the basement stairs (killing him before the fire). She runs down there to see if he's okay, Mystery Man runs out the storm door, and the house goes kaboom.

The case against Annalise is ridiculous, but I think that's intentional. Atwood (and Denver, to a lesser extent) want to take her down. This feels like a huge conspiracy to railroad her, which means a lot of things are being overlooked. It's fishy as hell, and I'm thinking it was someone from the DA's office (possibly Nate, working for Denver/Atwood? he did go to the house) who set the fire in order to frame Annalise. I don't know how they would have gotten away with it if Wes and Laurel hadn't been inside and they didn't have a recent murder/attempted murder to pin on her. I still have to work that part out.

[Tiger]

9 hours ago, doram said:

Yeah, it's hard to argue that Rebecca was pretty much universally hated during her run.

I don't completely agree with ... well, many arguments brought up. I still think the "mystery" of Laurel's paternity was not something the show ever presented (at least not in the first half of the season which aired without viewer input, so to speak) and seemed more 'generated' by the audience to provide an alternative fact* to what seemed rather obvious once the Waurel relationship started. (When/ how did she conceive this baby with Frank? Before he disappeared? During the summer months she was shown looking for him? The night he blackmailed her into staying overnight in her house, one week before the pregnancy was detected?) I guess the question/discussion is how much of this is based on hard-core rival shipping just because of the varied reasons individual viewers might gravitate to one ship above the other, and how much of those varied reasons are "objective" (or as objective as fannish shipping is) and how much are due to subconscious or otherwise biases, etc. 

I'm glad at least that the discussion's been had, and not being shut down.

*(Sorry, but I couldn't help it!)

I think the paternity of Laural's baby is still up for debate, and not because Laural/Wes is an interracial relationship, but becsuse it's this show.   Until the child is shown as grown a bit or we get flashbacks showing that Laural & FrnNk definitely didnt have sex that night, it will continue to remain an open point.

Also, while a home pregnancy test might not detect a pregnancy after one week, I believe a couple people here said a blood test would.  Regardless, in the 'Murder' universe it's possible that a pregnancy is detecable three days later no matter what the "rules" of our universe are.  

Lastly, one could argue that Laural wants Frank in prison because she wants to keep him away from and never see the baby.  

On the very related note of criticism of interracial relationships, I think it's terrible to assume someone criticizing an interracial couple because they are interracial.  

I can't comment on Supergirl or its fans since I've never seen the show, but I think recently a lot of shows and its fandoms caught a lot of rodiculous flack for criticism of an interracial couple when personally speaking I thought the couples in question just didnt have chemistry.

[starri]

2 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Lastly, one could argue that Laural wants Frank in prison because she wants to keep him away from and never see the baby.  

I can't think of a delicate way to say this, but how successful would Laurel be in passing Frank's baby off as the child of two people of color?

[Tiger]

6 minutes ago, starri said:

I can't think of a delicate way to say this, but how successful would Laurel be in passing Frank's baby off as the child of two people of color?

Since Laural is latina and Wes was half black/half white, she could probably pull it off.

A couple years ago in London I believe there was a white mom / black dad that had twins and one is definitely white looking and the other is definitely black looking.  I believe thos happened again a few weeks ago in Illinois.

Genetics are a funny thing.  Both my parents were Cuban, my older brother looks definitely cuban, I look white but with dark hair and eyes, and my younger brother looks downright Nordic.  

ETA: I believe Frank is italian and his dad looked sicilian with olive (read: darker than typical white) features. 

Also, there's been so much mixing of the races over the last few centuries, it's amazing there aren't more situations like those twins.  I mean look at Megan Markle.  If the media hadnt made a point of her being half white/half black, I wouldnt have known.  I thought she was white or hispanic when I saw her on Suits.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Tiger

[starri]

I just don't think this show would be that nuanced.  Frankly, I don't know if any TV show could be that nuanced.

[starri]

Just now, doram said:

Although the show can always veer into that territory if it's important enough to eliminate the possibility of showing a white woman give birth to a biracial baby. 

Laurel isn't white.

[Milaxx]

59 minutes ago, starri said:

I just don't think this show would be that nuanced.  Frankly, I don't know if any TV show could be that nuanced.

Years ago on The Jefferson's the neighboring interracial couple had 2 kids. The female was played by an AA actress & the male by a White guy. They even had an ep. where they talked about how she felt that he could pass & she couldn't. It's entirely possible because genetics, recessive genes & all that. Some biracial kids look like a blend of their parents, some look more like one parent . Waurel's offspring could indeed end up looking like Laurel, a white Mexicana.

[HunterHunted]

13 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

I'm with you and it's hard to take any of this seriously other than the story must be about the systematic railroading of black folks in the justice system no matter how far up the economic ladder they may be. Because WTF? I posted days ago once Anna had her hearing that resulted in no bail and all Atwood showed was the paper work that Wes was the informant/witness.  I was like and? Where the hell is the report from the fire freaking department that shows evidence of arson?  Because apparently Wes did "not" die before the fire, and in "fact," he died because of it. Or are we dealing in alternative facts in Shondaland as well? LOL Again, what in the hell is Norwalk doing? Why is he making Bonnie and everyone else including Anna look stupid? I know he must think we the viewers are stupid, but I don't get how you could claim that the victim died in a fire via arson, yet not bring to court any scientific evidence to prove that during the bail hearing? Worse, the judge doesn't ask for any scientific evidence, and the worst of all,the defendant's counsel doesn't bring it up either. WTF folks? Someone please help me understand. Is that counsel only has to prove motive for bail to be denied at a bail hearing? Maybe that's it and that's fucked up if it is.

Wait, even with the motive that Atwood presented, did she prove that Anna knew about that paperwork listing Wes as the informant? I saw the paper work but how on earth did she show that Anna had any idea, or got a hold of that information?

I don't need accuracy. I just need logic. You can't arrest someone for a death that no one knows is a murder and a fire that no one knows is arson. Bail hearings don't work the way the show has depicted them. A bail hearing presupposes that the police/DA have enough presented evidence to a judge or grand jury to arrest Annalise. Police can arrest without a warrant provided that they have actually witnessed a crime. None of this happened on this dumb show. Bail is denied not because there is a mountain of evidence that indicates that the defendant is guilty, but because the defendant is likely to reoffend or flee the jurisdiction. Considering some of Annalise's past shenanigans, there is a decent argument to make that allowing her to be out of bail is contrary to the public interest. Of course this would mean that the DA would have to use actual facts as opposed conjecture or Wes' unverified statement to move to deny bail. For example any of Annalise's judicial or censures by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court could be used to demonstrate that Annalise would likely assault and coerce witnesses and shouldn't be out on bail. At no point has the show depicted that Annalise knew about Wes' statement.

At this point, I'm assuming that Atwood is working with a couple of precogs from Minority Report because that's the only way she can make half the arguments she's made without any evidence.

Edited February 5, 2017 by HunterHunted