S05.E11: Second Chances

[Hiveminder]

Steve was not bringing it tonight. That's probably why I wasn't as disturbed by Oliver beating that guy to death with the gun instead of just shooting him. 

Something about Kujo whatsername rubbed me the wrong way. I didn't like her. It was probably the veiled condescension. 

I didn't mind Dinah herself, even if the name thing is ridiculous. I kind of liked her. I'm just not sure if I'm going enjoy her being added to the show. 

Also, they were in the middle of a city. How many innocent bystanders died in the fiery ball of wreckage Oliver brought down on them. Not to mention the property damage. I hope no struggling small business owners just lost their livelihoods. 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Hiveminder

[Mellowyellow]

Has she met Felicity yet?

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

Has she met Felicity yet?

No.

[Chaser]

SA hated the influence the other shows had on Arrow. I can't imagine he was pleased with D.C. pushing Tinah on them.

[ladylaw99]

What exactly was the second chances line about. I ask because I completely  zoned out and was more entertained filing my nails.

[LeighAn]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

What story do you need when you're already such an awesome lady and amazing fighter tho?

I stand corrected. Ha.

For real though they could've have tied her to Vigilante Prometheus or a past Arrow villian or someone on Team Arrow and/or created some kind of agenda of motivation for her on the team but they didn't. 

Just like the other Canaries didn't serve much purpose except to be there to meet comic quota.

So yay consistency. 

[wonderwall]

Stephen probably: Who the hell are these new people?! And why do I barely have any scenes with David or Emily?

[LeighAn]

5 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

What exactly was the second chances line about. I ask because I completely  zoned out and was more entertained filing my nails.

I think it's about them both having killed people and having morally grey methods. Ergo if Oliver can inspire Tina/Dinah change there's hope for himself. I think it'll all tie back to Oliver legacy being to inspire a new breed of heroes.

I'm just spit balling here. It's rubbish though because he's already learnt this lesson more then once.

[Hiveminder]

You know, based only on what we've seen of her so far, I think I could enjoy a show where Sara takes on Dinah as her protege and molds her in her own image. Maybe a Netflix series on an alternate earth where Sara was the only Canary, and Laurel is never held up as a standard for anything other than how to pick a shitty boyfriend. 

[ladylaw99]

Thanks @LeighAn, I could have sworn  he already had his second, third, fourth chance but what do I know.

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, ladylaw99 said:

Thanks @LeighAn, I could have sworn  he already had his second, third, fourth chance but what do I know.

Remember that Greys Anatomy episode where that patients memory resets its self every ten minutes .... I think the Arrow writers have that.

[Lady Calypso]

Well, I know what subplot I liked best, that's for sure. The Oliver/Wild Dong/Mister Not So Terrific Road Trip? Yawn. I was not into it at all. Them sitting in Big Belly Burger just made me yearn for the days when OTA went there to hang out (and occasionally stalk Diggle's brother's wife). Having Laurel set on some impossible standards make no sense. She wasn't all that high and mighty, Oliver. In fact, I remember you trying to keep her from being on the team for months. You never really accepted her until after Sara was brought back. But it was funny that Diggle pointed out that he was really just replacing the mantle, not Laurel. It's true; as soon as Oliver found out that Tinah had the Canary Cry, he was all for it. 

But yeah, this new Team Arrow they're trying so hard to convince us is awesome with Curtis as the tech guy and Oliver/Wild Dong as the fighters? No thanks. I'll take OTA+Ragman any day. Stephen looks like he has more fun with the others, anyway. He really did look miserable this episode. Even his one small Olicity scene and his two Diggle/Chase scenes, he seemed to not put much effort into it. Although he did seem to try harder in those scenes than the ones with the Recruits.

Also, I guess Oliver is just telling everyone his secret. Alrighty, then. 

Ok, so I laughed at the quickest crossover ever. Ok, well Barry popping in for a nanosecond. That was pretty funny. But now it seems like Tinah, when part of the next crossover, will at least know Joe and Barry. So, more reasons to love her or something. Eh. I don't like being manipulated into liking a character, and that's how I feel. 

Although, Tinah as a character is not the worst I've seen. The actress really was trying; it was the writing that failed her introduction. Meh; I'm going to give her another chance. I know that this episode, the writers went overboard to get the audience to like her. Hopefully they tone it down. 

I liked the flashbacks, at least. Talia's a good character so far, very intriguing as well. 

The subplot I liked the best was the Felicity/Rory show. I could watch a whole episode of Felicity/Rory being best friends. Even though I like Curtis/Felicity, I think Curtis is way too similar to Felicity, while Rory provides a balance that allows the interactions between them to flow better. I love that Felicity has a fan as well. Ghost Fox Goddess is also an epic hacker name.

[ladylaw99]

Sometimes I wish I would have memory lost about this show.

[spartan]

I first want to welcome the new actress but It takes a special level of arrogance and disdain for these creators to do what they did. For years, fans were telling these guys that they should give Laurel her metahuman Canary powers but they just refused to because they wanted to keep team Arrow metahuman powerless. So poor KC got saddled with that canary cry that everyone made fun of. It seems like every decisions these guys have made has been to belittle KC and Laurel and to emphasize that she was pointless. Its gotten to the point where they are just now randomly name throwing another unrelated metahuman who just happens to have the same first name as Laurel and the exact same powers of her doppelganger from E-2. Its quite sickening really because this is clearly being done because Guggenheim and co… were shocked by the backlash caused when they got rid of KC and Laurel so casually and arrogantly that they have just inserted this character out of nowhere just to assuage them so he can eventually say that Laurel was never the “real” Black Canary.

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, spartan said:

I first want to welcome the new actress but It takes a special level of arrogance and disdain for these creators to do what they did. For years, fans were telling these guys that they should give Laurel her metahuman Canary powers but they just refused to because they wanted to keep team Arrow metahuman powerless. So poor KC got saddled with that canary cry that everyone made fun of. It seems like every decisions these guys have made has been to belittle KC and Laurel and to emphasize that she was pointless. Its gotten to the point where they are just now randomly name throwing another unrelated metahuman who just happens to have the same first name as Laurel and the exact same powers of her doppelganger from E-2. Its quite sickening really because this is clearly being done because Guggenheim and co… were shocked by the backlash caused when they got rid of KC and Laurel so casually and arrogantly that they have just inserted this character out of nowhere just to assuage them so he can eventually say that Laurel was never the “real” Black Canary.

Is this a copy/paste from somewhere?

Either way, I don't think it's "clear[]" AT ALL that they're bringing in Tinah bc they were shocked by the backlash from killing E1 Laurel. Because...they very easily could have just brought back KC. As Siren, as reanimated E1 Laurel, whatever. 

[Hiveminder]

Honestly, Laurel never was the 'real' Black Canary. Not on this show. Blame the actress or the writing, whatever you want.  She just wasn't. 

[benteen]

I thought Lexa Doig was awesome as Talia.  I enjoyed this episode though I laughed at Felicity saying that Laurel is a tough act to follow.  Uh, no she isn't.

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, Lantern7 said:

As for Dinah's future . . . meh. Why would you want somebody on par with Laurel? She wasn't that good at anything. She got the crash course on fighting from Nyssa. Now, if you looking for a replacement for the original Black Canary? That would be rough. Sara is a bonafide all-star. Bring her back, and you risk dinosaur stormtroopers marching through the streets if she leaves the Waverider, because nobody else can lead the team. Well, maybe Amaya, but she's still a newbie on that team.

The writers appear to think that if they have the other characters keep saying how awesome Laurel was, we'll come to parrot it too.  They apparently don't realize that our memories are better than their.

58 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Off note I love that Felicity effortlessly inspired others to take up her mantle while Oliver had to recruit Black Canary and then appeal to her multiple times to take the name.

I thought of the parallel that Oliver created Prometheus, and Felicity created this group of hacktivists.

I guess this is the new gang she's going to run with.  I sadly bid goodbye to my dreams of Felicity working with Vigilante on the dark side.

It came up as Overwatch on her computer when she was IMing them.  Would they have seen that?

38 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

What exactly was the second chances line about. I ask because I completely  zoned out and was more entertained filing my nails.

Oliver:  Rene, the guy in the hockey mask, told the other guy that was with us - Curtis - that this team is all about finding second chances.

Tina:    You said maybe we don't get second chances.

Oliver:   Well, maybe I was wrong.  Maybe you're my second chance.

---

I hate that we were told about Diggle/Felicity scenes but didn't get a single one in this episode in which she got him out prison.

Why did Oliver take Curtis and Rene to Hub City but not Rory?  Is it because he had to say back for Felicity to have someone to talk to?

Edited February 2, 2017 by statsgirl

[MaisyDaisy]

I think what's very clear is that they just really didn't want KC, which I think was evident in the writing for LL. Because yes, the probably could have easily gotten her back, but chose not to. 

I didn't like LL and am a bit ify at times towards KC, but to me the whole way this has been handled stinks of some patriarchal boys club bullshit to me. The whole thing has been poorly handled.

[AyChihuahua]

I always go back-and-forth on KC, bc I think she was absolutely utterly completely terrible in the role. She's only competent in a very specific wheelhouse, and it is not warm/heroic and it is CERTAINLY not athletic agile badass. I actually hit myself in the head opening a door again yesterday. STILL MORE COORDINATED THAN KC.

But I agree they did not treat her well and I've always felt kind of bad for her losing a job she was pretty clearly excited about.

It would have been best for everyone if she just hadn't gotten it in the first place. They shouldn't have offered, but she also should have been aware of her physical limitations and should have declined. She just can't do action.

[LeighAn]

@Mellowyellow

some more Olicity heart eye pics for you 

https://mobile.twitter.com/amiipond/status/826991184987975680

[Primetimer]

As Oliver takes a break from the plot to go recruiting, does the show stay true to its roots?

View the full article

[Writing Wrongs]

All the dudes they killed and he's worrying about her damning her soul by killing the one who needed to be killed. Ok, Ollie.

The guy that played Sonus had played Vordigan/The Dark Archer during Green Arrow's storyline on Smallville, which I find funny.

I'm used to seeing Lexa Doig playing the goofy best friend in those Hallmark Channel's Aurora Teagarden Mysteries, so it's weird seeing her as Talia.

[bethy]

13 minutes ago, MaisyDaisy said:

but to me the whole way this has been handled stinks of some patriarchal boys club bullshit to me

How so? I'm genuinely curious.

What I've seen made me think it was about an actor who was miscast from the start that the producers, etc. tried to work with and around, but just couldn't make fit. 

I was mostly bored with the parts of the episode that didn't involve Felicity. If them finally having their BC means they'll stop talking about Laurel's stupid legacy, I'll give Dinah a chance, I guess. But I still feel like there are too many people on the team and Digg's minimal screen time tonight only confirms my fear that nuBC is going to distract from what I find most interesting about the show.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, ladylaw99 said:

What exactly was the second chances line about. I ask because I completely  zoned out and was more entertained filing my nails.

I was watching closely and still don't understand what second chance Oliver is looking for with bringing in Tina.  I get Tina being to let go some of the darkness, but what new thing did Oliver get with Tina besides getting the ghost of Laurel off his back? 

Edited February 2, 2017 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

but what knew thing did Oliver get with Tina besides getting the ghost of Laurel off his back? 

He said earlier that he didn't want Black Siren to be all that was left of Laurel, and since he failed to recruit her in the last ep (and basically spent all this ep trying to recruit Tinah the same way) that Tinah was his second chance to help someone redeem themselves since BS said nah, son. 

Edited February 2, 2017 by apinknightmare

[Sunshine]

I have to wonder if part of the "Laurel is the bestest ever" was mandate by DC to clean up DLL's show reputation because they have gone overboard with it.. 

[insomniadreams88]

I think the "second chance" was another chance to say the episode's title. That's it.

I will say that when I looked at the clock when Tina Dinah walked into Oliver's office, I thought that there would be enough time for another scene before the episode ended. Wish there had been.

[way2interested]

Just now, insomniadreams88 said:

I will say that when I looked at the clock when Tina Dinah walked into Oliver's office, I thought that there would be enough time for another scene before the episode ended. Wish there had been.

Yeah, like, I didn't know if it was just me being innately turned off by change, but Tina and Oliver's scenes just felt so long and slow. They weren't bad per se and actually had some good qualities to them, but they felt like some of the longest dialogue scenes between two characters on this show recently.

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, way2interested said:

Yeah, like, I didn't know if it was just me being innately turned off by change, but Tina and Oliver's scenes just felt so long and slow. They weren't bad per se and actually had some good qualities to them, but they felt like some of the longest dialogue scenes between two characters on this show recently.

Little known fact: every time you use the word "lovers," the clock slows down

[insomniadreams88]

3 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Yeah, like, I didn't know if it was just me being innately turned off by change, but Tina and Oliver's scenes just felt so long and slow. They weren't bad per se and actually had some good qualities to them, but they felt like some of the longest dialogue scenes between two characters on this show recently.

Yeah, I agree. I think it's also because we knew that she was going to sign up to join the team by episode's end, so it was just dragging the inevitable. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

7 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Little known fact: every time you use the word "lovers," the clock slows down

Except when it's Felicity saying the word and Oliver makes a face that says "OMG, I desperately want to be hers." ;)

This episode sounds like snoozeville, but I did find some cute GIFS so maybe I'll just FF-watch tomorrow.

(Good Lord, I'm squeeing over finger touches.)

(All I could think of in the last GIF is turnabout is fair play, dude)

[Hiveminder]

4 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Little known fact: every time you use the word "lovers," the clock slows down

Felicity was right. That is a creepy word. 

I kept getting distracted by the lighting in that scene.  The side of Oliver's face closest to the window looked hazy or something. It was weird. 

[way2interested]

Just now, insomniadreams88 said:

Yeah, I agree. I think it's also because we knew that she was going to sign up to join the team by episode's end, so it was just dragging the inevitable. 

I think it was also that they were trying to stuff 2-3+ episodes worth of conversations (exposition, common backgrounds, offer, references, argument, growth, set-up, etc.) between them into 2 scenes.

[ladylaw99]

@SmallScreenDiva you will be ff alot=:)

[SmallScreenDiva]

9 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

@SmallScreenDiva you will be ff alot=:)

Had a feeling after reading the thread and finding only these GIFS. Sigh.

[insomniadreams88]

6 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I think it was also that they were trying to stuff 2-3+ episodes worth of conversations (exposition, common backgrounds, offer, references, argument, growth, set-up, etc.) between them into 2 scenes.

Yep. Probably because there won't be time to have that in later episodes. So they figure, throw it all in here so that we can have Dinah show up at his office for the final scene and the big "Dinah Drake" reveal. 

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Had a feeling after reading the thread and finding only these GIFS. Sigh.

I'm surprised we even got these, haha.

[Chaser]

Im bummed my DVR didn't work and the episode didn't record. I wanted to see the Felicity scenes at least.

Im curious. What was Oliver's expression at the name reveal? What expression do you make when faced with that stupidity?

[bethy]

You know Oliver stretched his arm out to her all *pleasetouchmepleasetouchmepleasetouchme*

And then with the finger tap he was all *allmydreamshavecometrue* You can see him glance toward their hands when she touches him. 

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Im curious. What was Oliver's expression at the name reveal? What expression do you make when faced with that stupidity?

A little like he wasn't sure if he had gas or needed to poo.

[AyChihuahua]

1 minute ago, bethy said:

You know Oliver stretched his arm out to her all *pleasetouchmepleasetouchmepleasetouchme*

And then with the finger tap he was all *allmydreamshavecometrue* You can see him glance toward their hands when she touches him. 

It's just...they were engaged. (I am not arguing with you at all, just man, how far they've fallen. I'll never understand.)

[statsgirl]

51 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

The guy that played Sonus had played Vordigan/The Dark Archer during Green Arrow's storyline on Smallville, which I find funny.

I'm used to seeing Lexa Doig playing the goofy best friend in those Hallmark Channel's Aurora Teagarden Mysteries, so it's weird seeing her as Talia.

It was an Andromeda reunion.  Steve Bacic (Sonus) played Telemachus Rhade on the last two seasons of Andromeda.

38 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

He said earlier that he didn't want Black Siren to be all that was left of Laurel, and since he failed to recruit her in the last ep (and basically spent all this ep trying to recruit Tinah the same way) that Tinah was his second chance to help someone redeem themselves since BS said nah, son. 

Was that supposed to parallel Talia having a second chance to redeem someone, in this case Oliver?  Or was the only point of her to create the divide between the man and the mask so he can go home to Laurel? 

I'd try to find deeper meaning in this episode but it was too boring. What a come down after last week!

37 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

II will say that when I looked at the clock when Tina Dinah walked into Oliver's office, I thought that there would be enough time for another scene before the episode ended. Wish there had been.

I was really hoping that there would be another Felicity scene since they let it as meh but that was being too optimistic.  Of course they had to end it on their new Green arrow/Black Canary duo.

[Chaser]

NOTP lives on. Thanks SA.

Ive been looking for gifs of the episode and have found exactly one of Tina. Well that's impact. 

[HighHopes]

11 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

A little like he wasn't sure if he had gas or needed to poo.

IMO that's kinda Oliver's default face now. And I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I see the face in his scenes with Felicity too. 

Was not impressed with his sighing/being disappointed when Felicity said she hacked the laptop. Dude...you met her by asking her to get information off of a stolen (bullet-ridden) laptop. And ask her on the regular to hack things. Why are you disappointed/sighing when she does it now?? 

Again, unpopular opinion, but I find Oliver looks annoyed in some of his scenes with Felicity now. 

Also while I don't think there was *romantic tension* between Oliver and Tina/Dinah tonight, I think they left it open enough that if they decide to go there, there was *scenes* building up to it. Especially his "I think you're my second chance" line. If they go there, that could be taken as foreshadowing as a "you're my second chance at having a relationship/being happy". 

Edited February 2, 2017 by HighHopes

[Mellowyellow]

11 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

It's just...they were engaged. (I am not arguing with you at all, just man, how far they've fallen. I'll never understand.)

I know hun! Why do you think I bounce between Sad and angry shipper all the time. 

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It was an Andromeda reunion.  Steve Bacic (Sonus) played Telemachus Rhade on the last two seasons of Andromeda.

I thought that is who that was! I've always found him SO attractive.

[benteen]

Also, the fight scene with Oliver shooting all the Russians was great.

[Hiveminder]

4 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

 

Also while I don't think there was *romantic tension* between Oliver and Tina/Dinah tonight, I think they left it open enough that if they decide to go there, there was *scenes* building up to it. Especially his "I think you're my second chance" line. If they go there, that could be taken as foreshadowing as a "you're my second chance at having a relationship/being happy". 

I think you're right that they did leave room for that, but it would be incredibly dumb of them to follow through. 

[benteen]

The helicopter scene was amazing.