S03.E10: We're Bad People

[Milaxx]

8 hours ago, Tiger said:

While I agree that in general, gay guys feel shame, up until this episode that hadnt been presented as Connor's experience and it was the thing I liked most about him.  I do think Connor would or at least should be in therapy for "his murder stuff" and the awful way Oliver treats him, but based on everything shown thus far, especially that conversation with his sister in season 1, I dont think Connor was ever in or needed therapy for "his gay stuff". 

Also, I think it's misplaced to blame that shame on "a heteronormative" society when frankly it's the gay "community" (whatever that is supposed to mean) that treats its own like complete and utter shit.  

That Connor was just a guy who happens to like guys and hadn't experienced any trauma until he got sucked into Annalise's vortex was so refreshing, and I hate that they seem to be undoing that now.  

On another note, I could not agree more about Wes.  He is the cause of all of their misery.  He was obsessed with Rebecca and he killed Sam.  That is all on him. 

My issue with this is the recap is incorrect. The way the recap phrased it made it appear as if Connor has been in therapy ongoing. Connor approached Wes who is lying in the ground studying. What Connor actually said was, "I just got out of therapy. It's the first time I've been back since I was 17 and needed to talk through all my gay stuff. Now I just need to talk through all my murder stuff. I'm kidding, I talk about Oliver...,it's lame, I know." ... 

Wes: "He just needs space."

Connor: "How do you know?

Wes:  "He got drunk at my birthday party a few weeks ago and told Meggy."

Connor, " We should let them go right, I mean, if we were at all good people we'd want them to be free of us."

The background for Connor has always been he came from a family that accepted him as being gay. Getting therapy briefly as an adolescent gels with the story arc of him having a family that loved him enough to make sure he had support coming to grips with his sexuality as a teen.

This is also one of the things that makes me question anything we see in these Bright Wes flashbacks with 100% accuracy. Someone phrased them as more idealized versions of their interactions with Wes.  In this instance, if Connor was in therapy, I doubt he told anyone he was, but I have no doubt that he wanted to tell someone. However since Wes did break up with Meggy, I do think that second half of the conversation actually happened. 

[Milaxx]

3 hours ago, Miles said:

How is there no consultant on this show who actually knows anything about law.

First of all Oliver saying knowing about the murder would make him an accessory. I guess he isn't a law student like the rest of the gang but how did Connor not correct him on that. Even to be an accessory after the fact, you need to actively help somebody to get away with a crime. Just keeping your mouth shut doesn't qualify.

Then the bail hearing was just mind boggingly wrong. It's not enough that the DA has a bit of circumstancial evidence that somebody might have commited a crime. Mainly they have to convince a judge that the defendant is a flight risk. I'm not sure if they could have done it regarding Annalise, but that didn't even come up... Weak.

 

On a slightly funny note, now that he's dead I finally understood Connor's nickname for Wes. I always thought he called him "weightless" because his so skinny, but today I finally heard it correctly and it's "waitlist", because he got in from the waitlist... doy.

Thank you! I also question how they could charge her with Arson and First Degree when there has been no mention of a report from the fire department. They would need to first determine that the cause of the fire was arson BEFORE AK was charged with First degree murder. Secondly since she has been an upstanding citizen, why not set a high bail and then take her passport?

As for the guiltiness of the K5, for me it comes down to what they did after Sam died. Sam was a piece of crap who cheated on his wife, impregnated a teenager and had her murdered. The problem for the K5 is they got talked in covering up Rebecca;s involvement which *is* Wes's fault and then being stupid enough to destroy the body but not go all the way with it and take those chopped up remains to the incinerator.  Connor is right, they should have all turned themselves in, even better they shouldn't have listened to Wes when he talked them into burning Sam's body.

[Milaxx]

On 1/27/2017 at 10:39 AM, Keepitmoving said:

Quote

 

"you're not grieving or sad the way I think you should be, so you killed him" isn't appropriate, and I think Asher is getting a pass because people are focusing on being mad at Connor. 

 

 

 

Asher does this a lot and it's starting to be really annoying. He's questioned Micheala's responses on more than one occasion as being cold and distance instead of showing what he felt was the appropriate level of sadness or concern when dealing with her mom. I also think he did something similar to Bonnie. 

[secnarf]

9 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

As for the guiltiness of the K5, for me it comes down to what they did after Sam died. Sam was a piece of crap who cheated on his wife, impregnated a teenager and had her murdered. The problem for the K5 is they got talked in covering up Rebecca;s involvement which *is* Wes's fault and then being stupid enough to destroy the body but not go all the way with it and take those chopped up remains to the incinerator.  Connor is right, they should have all turned themselves in, even better they shouldn't have listened to Wes when he talked them into burning Sam's body.

The 'murder-4' were talked into the cover-up largely because Annalise talked Wes into it. If you blame Wes for that, then I think Annalise is at least equally guilty.

4 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

Asher does this a lot and it's starting to be really annoying. He's questioned Micheala's responses on more than one occasion as being cold and distance instead of showing what he felt was the appropriate level of sadness or concern when dealing with her mom. I also think he did something similar to Bonnie. 

Yes, they've shown Asher doing this numerous times - largely coming from a place of rich white male privilege.

[Milaxx]

8 minutes ago, secnarf said:

The 'murder-4' were talked into the cover-up largely because Annalise talked Wes into it. If you blame Wes for that, then I think Annalise is at least equally guilty.

Yes, they've shown Asher doing this numerous times - largely coming from a place of rich white male privilege.

She is. Anna may be the only one who actually hasn't injured anyone, but she is the master manipulator of the all. Anna wanted the murder of Sam covered up in order to save face and protect Wes. 

8 minutes ago, secnarf said:

17 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

Asher does this a lot and it's starting to be really annoying. He's questioned Micheala's responses on more than one occasion as being cold and distance instead of showing what he felt was the appropriate level of sadness or concern when dealing with her mom. I also think he did something similar to Bonnie. 

Yes, they've shown Asher doing this numerous times - largely coming from a place of rich white male privilege.

Exactly. I like Asher and while he has grown a lot as a character, I need him to grow a little more and check his privilege if they are going to continue to pair him with Micheala.

[Aquarius97]

But in first place the "Murder-4" left the house pretending like they had never been there, but then Wes thought about the trophy with their prints on it, and Annalise was already in the house, whose talk with Wes began the cover-up thing

Maybe, if Wes hadn't thought about the trophy (because having their prints of it had a simple explanation, as all of them had previously been awarded with the trophy) all of that could had been avoided. Which makes me think, what was AK waiting for sitting of her chair when Wes arrived to the house to collect the trophy?

[Milaxx]

That's right, it was Wes who got them to move the body BEFORE AK gave him instructions on "how to get away with murder". 

[Keepitmoving]

15 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

Asher does this a lot and it's starting to be really annoying. He's questioned Micheala's responses on more than one occasion as being cold and distance instead of showing what he felt was the appropriate level of sadness or concern when dealing with her mom. I also think he did something similar to Bonnie. 

If I haven't bitched about it already, of course I have, this is my number one gripe, I cannot stand this shit. And he seriously STILL has the nerve to bitch about her responses to her mother, the same mother he got to crash in on Michaela's life. The same mother he got to overstep what I would call a healthy space that Michaela was trying to keep between them. Norwalk, you better step it up on Asher's maturity, step it up. This is no longer cute as if it ever was. 

Michaela drives me crazy, for all the bashing about the mean, man eater Michaela, the man eater part makes my head turn 360 degrees, say what? The first guy was gay,  the second conned his way into her life because he was trying to find out what happened to his foster sister. Then his ass went to jail because Frank set him up and put drugs in his car, but I guess that was Michael'a fault too. Finally, the third was a fucking serial killer, I guess she turned him into one (eye roll), please, she's only guilty of picking some really fucked up men. Men who were fucked up long before she picked them.  

Now she has yet to tell Asher's ass off for answering her phone and getting in between she and her mother and when he brought up her mother twice in this episode that was the perfect opportunity, but still she said nothing. I just want to jump through the tv screen and tell both Asher and Connor off for her.

[secnarf]

4 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

That's right, it was Wes who got them to move the body BEFORE AK gave him instructions on "how to get away with murder". 

No, when Wes went back to get the trophy, Sam's body was still there, and we saw Wes apologizing and then it's revealed that AK was there watching and that's when she told Wes what to do. AK intervened before they moved the body.

[Milaxx]

I have more of an issue with Asher than Connor.   Asher because he claims to love her and wants to get to know but also because for Asher it's not just Micheala he does this with. Connor I feel there is more reciprocity in the relationship. They started out as bitchy but post Aiden, I think Connor and Michaela have moved onto a point where they confide in each other but also bitch each other out. So Connor would encourage Michaela to go out and date other guys post Aiden. Unfortunately he didn't know Levi & Caleb would be losers.  Aja & Matt have terrific chemistry together that makes me root for Micheala & Asher, but the writer's really need to put his privilege in check.

10 minutes ago, secnarf said:

No, when Wes went back to get the trophy, Sam's body was still there, and we saw Wes apologizing and then it's revealed that AK was there watching and that's when she told Wes what to do. AK intervened before they moved the body.

Darnit! That's right. I can't believe I keep forgetting the details. 

[Tiger]

35 minutes ago, secnarf said:

Yes, they've shown Asher doing this numerous times - largely coming from a place of rich white male privilege.

Asher is a dumbass, but that has nothing to do with either his race or gender and it's a huge mistake to link his behavior to them.  

[Tiger]

30 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

She is. Anna may be the only one who actually hasn't injured anyone, but she is the master manipulator of the all. Anna wanted the murder of Sam covered up in order to save face and protect Wes. 

Exactly. I like Asher and while he has grown a lot as a character, I need him to grow a little more and check his privilege if they are going to continue to pair him with Micheala.

First, I really want to see an alternate reality/flash sideways episode that either had them never either never going to the house that night to begin with or never going back to the house that night.  Either way, I think it'd be interesting to see everyone truly happy and succesful as opposed to the usual ar/sideways 'things may suck but they could have been worse'.

Second, as much as I have with connecting someone's behavior to their race and/or gender, I have bigger problems with the notions of 'check your privilege' and 'stay in your lane'.  These are racist and sexist ideas that essentially seek to silence someone or tell them they are wrong solely because of their race/gender/wealth/etc.

[Keepitmoving]

2 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Asher is a dumbass, but that has nothing to do with either his race or gender and it's a huge mistake to link his behavior to them.  

I can see this on some level, because I get tired of the constant repeating to Asher that he's white, it's annoying to me. They need to stop saying that and saying it just for a punch line, I am not amused. However, I can see how being a white male of privilege and not being pushed in his upbringing to step outside of that box has resulted in the annoying man that he's become today. Because you can certainly be a white male of privilege and still step outside of your comfortable, insulated, ignorant, I don't need, nor do I care to know shit about others because I'm the majority in terms of power, box. It happens.

[Milaxx]

There have been many instances that highlight Asher's CIS male privilege.  That women he grabbed? Looked NOTHING like Micheala. (She was taller, thinner and several shades lighter than Micheala.)  Wes summed it up perfectly when he told him, "no, you're just white."

Assuming AK would give him a loan to pay his tuition. 

Ep3x4 - His remark about the sneakers's his client was wearing.

The entire handling of Tiffany rape & his response when Bonnie found out. All based on privilege.

He policing of others emotions and reactions to situations? Privilege.

Even back in season 1 he was defined as a dumbass, but also privileged and entitled. His behavior is linked to it because you have to accept your privilege in order to grow and do better. 

[Milaxx]

4 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I can see this on some level, because I get tired of the constant repeating to Asher that he's white, it's annoying to me. They need to stop saying that and saying it just for a punch line, I am not amused. However, I can see how being a white male of privilege and not being pushed in his upbringing to step outside of that box has resulted in the annoying man that he's become today. Because you can certainly be a white male of privilege and still step outside of your comfortable, insulated, ignorant, I don't need, nor do I care to know shit about others because I'm the majority in terms of power, box. It happens.

and when I say "check his privilege" this is what I mean. Acknowledge your bias and stop expecting or judging others based on it. Asher isn't quite there yet. I do believe he's trying but  he still has some growing to do.

[jvr]

Connor's behavior (as far as I can recall) has never been linked to wmp, maybe because he belongs to a minority group, so he gets a pass? No one knows he is gay though until he tells them, so he has benefited in life just as Asher. Anyway, I agree with @Tiger that it's easy to yell wmp at everything Asher does that is stupid but I think it's too convenient (even if there is an element of it). It may be what the writers are trying to portray but I also just think Asher is immature (maybe not a strict dumbass..but very silly) and that takes precedent over how he reacts to things and it's probably more a class (wealth) issue than anything else. That black gay guy Michaela was engaged too was damn privileged as well (and Connor won't let us forget they both attending boarding school together).

[Nanrad]

17 hours ago, doram said:

I don't think Laurel loved Frank. Or at least I don't think she loved him as much as she loved having sex with him. And as for her feelings for Wes ... Well even before they started dating, or even kissed in the s2.5... there was always a more-than-just-platonic vibe to the Waurel friendship. Many people picked up on it.

I'm not saying it wasn't there, but rather, that's not necessarily the point I'm making. Laurel did enjoy having sex with Frank, but she also very clearly cared a lot about Frank in more than a sexual or even friendly way, which she is trying to diminish because of her grief. Even with her more than platonic feelings for Wes, that also doesn't mean it was this great love that she's backing it out to be. Now does that not making it canon? No. But, that wasn't executed (well) on screen if this is the case.

===

RE: the violence.

Michaela is only accountable for the things that affect her, but I just didn't like how that scene played out. She's completely within her right to be perturbed by violence--I just would've wish I saw her speaking to Connor about his dick behavior that led to it. Her friend made inappropriate comments about an acquaintance to people who were clearly grieving--someone she keeps around. The next we scene him around her is all honky dory chilling in her bed.

Understandably, she demands Asher to get his shit together if he's going to be with her, but Connor, her best friend doesn't have some kind of expectation of how to behave in emotionally stressful situations? 

Edited January 30, 2017 by Nanrad

[possibilities]

5 hours ago, Miles said:

they have to convince a judge that the defendant is a flight risk. I'm not sure if they could have done it regarding Annalise, but that didn't even come up...

I'm not defending the show's way of (not) making this case, but they did say she was a flight risk, supposedly "because she had resources."

 

1 hour ago, Milaxx said:

why not set a high bail and then take her passport?

This would have made more sense.

[Keepitmoving]

25 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

 

Understandably, she demands Asher to get his shit together if he's going to be with her, but Connor, her best friend doesn't have some kind of expectation of how to behave in emotionally stressful situations? 

Nope, not from her, not expectations that she's going to be looking for and policing him for, then spend time chastising him when he doesn't meet them. . It's not for her to reprimand him on behalf of Laurel or any other situation she doesn't feel like addressing. He's a grown man he needs to police himself.  For me, it's just too much of her being expected to give and getting nothing in return. He's  squatting in her apt. rent free, squirting shit on her duvet cover, knocking down furniture and wine glasses, now on top that she's expected to start monitoring and correcting his behavior on behalf of other people when she can't even seem to correct the nasty behavior he directs toward her? She's not his mama. It's too much, it's just too much. Norwalk is getting on my nerves as if I have stated this multiple times.

Her boyfriend is a different matter IMO, and boy is he another matter. He told her that she was his family, he sounded like he wanted to build something serious, so that means addressing her issues with him and vice versa if they are going to make it work. They are supposed to be in something serious together, Connor is her snarky, annoying best friend, she may side eye him from time to time, she told him multiple times to shut his mouth in that hospital room and she didn't even have to do that IMO. Basically, I don't feel a sense of entitlement that Michaela should have to say one darn word to Connor about his anti-social behavior. I'm not looking for her to correct his anti-social behavior directed toward other people.  However, I am looking for her to correct his shitty behavior toward her, we can start there.

You're right though about him laying up in her bed, when she and Asher could have used the privacy to continue their heart to heart about all the shit that went down and it's affect on their relationship etc...but no. there his ass was, because Norwalk thought that was cute.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Nanrad]

@Keepitmoving that's not what I mean. Michaela doesn't have to constantly police and reprimand, but having basic expectations of your friends to behave like a decent person and not antagonize others is honestly not a huge expectation. And it would actually put her in a lot of sticky situations if she doesn't have any expectations out of him. She could point it out once or twice, and then end the friendship. From personal experience, I ended a friendship for this very reason: a former friend antagonizing others and not having basic decent to other people. Because it's not about doing it on the behalf of Laurel, but the inappropriateness of the entire situation and him not even considering her either. 

@doram IMO, the series showed that Laurel wanted more from Frank, which is why she met his family, BUT Frank couldn't tell her the truth about everything and with reason. Even this season she looked to be protecting Frank, despite her proclamations otherwise as well as it looking very much as if she had some unresolved feelings for Frank when he stayed at her place at she and Wes got together. I'm not saying that Wes and Laurel weren't hinted at, but I don't think they were executed well. I also said that canonically that her feelings are true, but I personally don't believe it's supported in the series to extent she's claiming. That's my interpretation of the series--I haven't denied anything, I just don't think the foundation was well laid. 

Edited January 30, 2017 by Nanrad

[Keepitmoving]

28 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

@Keepitmoving that's not what I mean. Michaela doesn't have to constantly police and reprimand, but having basic expectations of your friends to behave like a decent person and not antagonize others is honestly not a huge expectation. And it would actually put her in a lot of sticky situations if she doesn't have any expectations out of him. She could point it out once or twice, and then end the friendship. From personal experience, I ended a friendship for this very reason: a former friend antagonizing others and not having basic decent to other people. Because it's not about doing it on the behalf of Laurel, but the inappropriateness of the entire situation and him not even considering her either

This is my overall point, I just can't think about Michaela correcting Connor in other situations that involve other people when she can't bring herself to even seem to stand up to him for herself.  I mean if she lets him walk all over her, why would she stop him from doing it to others?  This goes back to the theme of Michaela having to take care of herself and only being able to depend on herself throughout her life. No one is ever looking out for her. So it bugs me, to have any focus on her being tasked to correct him. Because I do strongly agree, that it's a toxic one-sided friendship.  As others have pointed out, he's a shitty friend. She takes care of him by giving him free room and board and in return, he insults and makes insensitive remarks with regard to the most serious personal shit that has gone wrong in her life. He makes fun of the shit that went down with Aiden, but you have yet to see her make fun of anything having to do with Connor's heartbreak over Oliver. No, he knows he can just walk into her apt. have a fit, and kick her furniture,  and she'll console him.  Now he's making fun of her horrible adoptive mother by making some shitty remark about her being afraid that said mother will adopt Laurel's baby. I guess he wasn't that drunk, because he clearly heard Michaela put her mom on blast about adopting her and the rest of her siblings solely for the checks.  He sucks period, and she clearly is unable to defend herself against his suckery so I don't see how she can deal with the shit he throws at everyone else.

Yeah, she's gotta let go of the idea that he's all she's got, and I explained in a post above or a page or two back why she clings to him so, even though he sucks.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Nanrad]

@doram Someone can easily correct me on this, but Laurel pushed away when she found out about his part in Lila's death. I've only seen each episode once, but that was the nail in the coffin for their relationship because she couldn't get past that, which is her right. She started getting closer to Wes due to the fact that Frank wouldn't be as open with her as she wanted him too and she felt that he did Anna's dirty work i.e. harming and killing, and then he admitted what he did for Sam. Her hesitance in their relationship was because she didn't know much about him or what he did for Anna not because she wasn't interested in actually wanting more. 

She feels guilty about moving on, but it isn't because she traded up, but rather their complicated history and the reasons their relationship ended. Laurel's animosity to Frank IS because he killed Wes' father and not because she had feelings for Wes, but 1. Her emotions for Frank are a mess; she cares about him, but this is the second time that he's murdered someone whether or not it was at the direction of someone else. 2. His morals are fucked 3. Wes was her friend. 

Laurel wanting Frank to go to jail is simply wanting him to pay for him crimes because he did do it. I think her feelings are more complicating than her feeling like she owed him, but is also partially that. But, Laurel seemed indecisive about turning Frank into Anna, which IMO wasn't about protecting him because she felt guilty--it was because she believed Frank or wanted to believe him and there were residual feelings. Granted you can get over someone in a couple of months, but she and Frank were entangled in one another for a hot minute for me to believe it just instantly evaporated despite her being with Wes or having feelings for him. Just like Wes was still hung up on Rebecca even after finding out she was dead--his feelings didn't just go away because he hadn't seen her in a while. 

Bonnie was already biased against Laurel and that's honestly not how I read their relationship and why Laurel stuck around. lol

Laurel wasn't being selfishly honestly, she was being intentionally hurtful because she holds Frank responsible for what went down. Sure, the two can overlap, but in that instant, Laurel is grieving and needs someone to blame and who better than Frank? He's a killer and has been at the center of some shady stuff--he killed Wes father. And she found out that she was pregnant as well. And was finally at a good place in her life with someone who wasn't as complicated as her other boyfriends/partners. Yeah, I could see her saying a lot of shit out of anger just to tear Frank down. I mean, Laurel was being unnecessarily stubborn with Bonnie due to grief despite not suspecting that Anna was behind the bombing/Wes' murder, but it wasn't coloring her interaction with Frank??? Just about everything about that scene and her background points to grief than brutal honesty. She literally told Frank he should have died rather than Wes even though he wasn't involved--like, that's super fucked up. So, you believe she would honestly want him dead even if Wes hadn't died??? 

I don't think there is anything to add because we just don't agree on this.

[nutty1]

I'm in the minority here, I'm not angry or disappointed, I actually thought the episode was great. Also in the minority because I liked Wes and felt bad during the flashbacks or whatever they were.

I'm not one to condone violence, but damn, if anyone had it coming, it was Connor. 

 Viola Davis was exceptional in her scenes. But I hope all season isn't depressed Annalise. 

Its quite obvious that Frank isn't the killer, and that the medical examiner is lying. 

[helenamonster]

On 1/27/2017 at 2:53 PM, dgpolo said:

I haven't really noticed this! Is the info given in the flashbacks/forwards always true? Because I though maybe it was different to indicate an 'unreliable narrator' that is, if Frank is lying in his confession maybe what we are seeing is his made up story and not quite the truth.

Excluding the Wes flashbacks in this episode (and obviously the baby hallucinations Annalise had last season), anything we see onscreen is true. What this show does is constantly reframe the narrative. We'll see the same scene from several perspectives, or the frame of reference will widen to give us more information. Frank definitely picked up Wes from the police station, but that's just a red herring regarding the identity of Wes's killer until next week when another piece of the puzzle is filled in.

[Milaxx]

3 minutes ago, helenamonster said:

Excluding the Wes flashbacks in this episode (and obviously the baby hallucinations Annalise had last season), anything we see onscreen is true. What this show does is constantly reframe the narrative. We'll see the same scene from several perspectives, or the frame of reference will widen to give us more information. Frank definitely picked up Wes from the police station, but that's just a red herring regarding the identity of Wes's killer until next week when another piece of the puzzle is filled in.

That's an interesting way to put it. I'm beginning to wonder if some of the things said in the Bright Wes Flashback are a mix of things actually said and things they wish they had said or thought about. For example the discussion between Micheala and Wes. I wonder if she actually said he never talked to her or if she thought that. I can believe Connor talked about him and Wes not being good for Oliver and Meggy, but I have a hard time believing Connor would disclose to Wes that he was in therapy. 

[NUguy514]

On 1/29/2017 at 5:25 AM, Tiger said:

While I agree that in general, gay guys feel shame, up until this episode that hadnt been presented as Connor's experience and it was the thing I liked most about him.  I do think Connor would or at least should be in therapy for "his murder stuff" and the awful way Oliver treats him, but based on everything shown thus far, especially that conversation with his sister in season 1, I dont think Connor was ever in or needed therapy for "his gay stuff". 

Also, I think it's misplaced to blame that shame on "a heteronormative" society when frankly it's the gay "community" (whatever that is supposed to mean) that treats its own like complete and utter shit.

OK, a few points:

1. LGBT people are often exceptionally good at hiding shame from other people, but one way that shame can manifest is by engaging in seemingly proudly promiscuous behavior.  Connor as a character is no different from that, and I've always thought his bravado was masking some deep-seated shit.

2. That shame is a direct result of growing up in a heteronormative society, regardless of how the LGBT community treats itself, and I don't feel like trying to explain all the reasons why because it would take forever.  All I'll say is that if a person isn't LGBT, then he or she really can't know what it's like to grow up LGBT in this particular world and should refrain from trying to tell an LGBT person where his/her/their shame comes from.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

How To Get Away With Murder Would Be Sensational If It Cut The Mystery Crap

Forget the Agathie Christie stuff and focus on the social drama!

[Happytobehere]

Deleted 

Edited January 30, 2017 by Happytobehere

[RedheadZombie]

On January 27, 2017 at 0:54 PM, Keepitmoving said:

Exactly, because that's how I saw that scene at the door, it was about how the violence made her feel, not Connor. She looked Asher in his face and said that she couldn't deal with it and it had nothing to do with the punching bag being Connor. Once they were done with their convo and she let him in she then said there was someone else he needed to apologize to which I half agree with because she needed to tell Connor that he should apologize to Laurel, he's not poor little, victim here WTF? 

I've about had it with Norwalk continuing to keep Michaela around for Connor  as his fucking security blanket and never having her put her foot down and tell his ass off. Especially since he hasn't done shit but drain Michaela and not return any support. He's actually mean as fuck to her with his comments sometimes. It's almost like he takes joy in hurting her feelings, yeah, with friends like that...Norwalk, having favorite characters is a good way to topple your show, cut it out. Connor isn't my favorite, he deserves a telling off from his best friend. You can be friends with someone but still put them in their place when you need to. She was telling him to shut his mouth in that hospital room, but I didn't like the poor Connor he's a victim shit and nobody is telling his ass that he needs to apologize to Laurel.

Isn't Connor a rich kid?  I find it irritating that he's always sponging off Michaela. She surely has no money to spare after very expensive duvets and very nice clothing, as well as an apartment head and shoulders above the dump that Wes had.  She seems to be covering my the rent with no assistance from Connor or Asher.

I don't get Connor, and I don't really want to. He came from money. He apparently had parents who were supportive of his sexuality and sent him to therapy to make sure he was okay. Why is he such a jerk?  I thought he was an asshole long before Sam was killed. Asher and Laurel grew up with money, but we know what made them so dysfunctional. Connor is a cipher and frankly, I wish it were him or Nate that were killed.  I know Oliver was brought in to soften Connor and make him sympathetic, but I don't like Oliver so it didn't work for me. 

[KaveDweller]

55 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I don't get Connor, and I don't really want to. He came from money. He apparently had parents who were supportive of his sexuality and sent him to therapy to make sure he was okay. Why is he such a jerk? 

Some people are just assholes. It's in their blood or something.

[Tiger]

On 1/30/2017 at 3:09 PM, NUguy514 said:

OK, a few points:

1. LGBT people are often exceptionally good at hiding shame from other people, but one way that shame can manifest is by engaging in seemingly proudly promiscuous behavior.  Connor as a character is no different from that, and I've always thought his bravado was masking some deep-seated shit.

2. That shame is a direct result of growing up in a heteronormative society, regardless of how the LGBT community treats itself, and I don't feel like trying to explain all the reasons why because it would take forever.  All I'll say is that if a person isn't LGBT, then he or she really can't know what it's like to grow up LGBT in this particular world and should refrain from trying to tell an LGBT person where his/her/their shame comes from.

I'm bi, have dated dudes on and off for 20 years since I was 14, and have been with my boyfriend for two years now.  Am I qualified to "tell an LGBT person where his/her/their shame comes from"?

And I agreed with what you about most gay guys feeling shame.  But I've never felt shame and I sure as hell haven't and wouldn't be with a guy who did.  Further in the context of this show, until this past episode Connor Walsh hadnt been presented as feeling shame.  He was just a guy who happened to like guys and liked sex.  It was so damn refreshing to see.

Because at the end of the day this victim mentality that, as I said I agree with, most gay guys feel is self-inflicted and should not be blamed on straights/a heteronormative society.  Further, gay guys in general treating other gay guys like complete and utter shit is 100% on gay guys and should not be played on straights/the heteronormative society.  

From bible thumping family members to my frat bros to my colleagues in the workforce, no one has ever treated me badly or differently because of my sexuality.  In fact, the only people who have ever treated me badly because of my sexuality are self-titled progressives who hate that I dont act like a damn victim.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Tiger

[possibilities]

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

From bible thumping family members to my frat bros to my colleagues in the workforce, no one has ever treated me badly or differently because of my sexuality.  In fact, the only people who have ever treated me badly because of my sexuality are self-titled progressives who hate that I dont act like a damn victim.

You're very lucky and that's extremely rare. It explains why you seem to not understand the experiences others have gone through and are skeptical that such things exist and have a big impact on a lot of people, and the problems that has created for many. If you are interested to know more, for the sake of just understanding it, or for empathy, please do look into some of the documentation surrounding this. There's a lot out there, and I'm not saying that to make excuses for people treating each other badly within the community, but there is definitely a lot of very intense conditioning that goes on, based on how (a lot of us) we have been/are mistreated by (not all, but many) straights and by the larger heteronormative culture.

I'm on the fence about whether the "Connor has internalized oppression stuff" makes sense with his characterization up til now. I have been mulling over why I still like him and find him to be one of the more interesting characters. I totally see what others complain about with him, but it hasn't made me think he's worse than any of the others, and I still think he's better than, some of them. I think I just get him, even when I think he's behaving badly. I probably wouldn't be friends with him, but he's not a mystery to me and I feel like he's way deeper and more interesting than about 2/3 of the others, who often seem like very shallow stereotypes to me, characters I've seen a thousand times before and am not really getting anything different from than what every other show has given us.

In this episode, I completely agreed that he was being obnoxious to Laurel in the hospital, and that he should apologize. But I also don't think the substance of what he was saying was that wrong. I 100% think she should get an abortion. I just don't think he should have said anything about it, especially not at that moment and in that way, and dumping on "the kind of person" Wes was was even more out of line. I don't care if he hates Wes (I didn't, but I don't care if he does), I just don't think Wes's DNA is relevant-- but the circumstances are, and they are 100% against her having this baby.

I also completely understood where he was coming from in his conversation with Oliver. The breakdown was exactly in character, and harkened back to how he reacted after Sam's death when he completely fell apart and went to Oliver a blithering mess. He wants to go to the cops, he thinks that's the right thing and the only way to end the cycle of increasing lies and dysfunction, yet he's afraid to, he feels everything is hopeless, his life is ruined, anyone else's life will be ruined if he gets close to them, he feels guilty and ashamed and depressed and angry, but he's still too afraid to go to the cops himself. And he's hating himself for all of it.

Wes seemed way less emotionally burdened by things. He wanted to put an end to the entanglements, he had his regrets, but he was mostly shown to be coping. Laurel, too. Asher hardly seems to even remember that he killed Sinclair. Michaela was originally more like Connor, but we haven't been shown anything like that from her in a long time, so who knows what she feels or thinks now? Connor is really the only one of the K5 who we've been shown to be still tormented by the morality of the situation, not just the annoyance of how it has complicated their lives.

[Milaxx]

Connor has been shown to be middle class but not rich. Laurel I would classify as rich. As to why he hasn't gotten a new apt, I think he's still holding out hope of reconciling with Oliver. Regarding his "internalized oppression ", I think it certainly exists within the LGBT community, but I don't think that's Connor biggest issue. Seeing a therapist during turbulent or transitional  times in your life is a good thing. If the show is still following the narrative that Connor came from a loving & supportive family it makes sense. Who knows maybe Wes getting therapy after shooting AK prompted Connor to seek therapy. 

Edited February 5, 2017 by Milaxx

[helenamonster]

My problem with Connor telling Laurel to get an abortion isn't that I disagree with it (I think she should get one too; hell, I'd even settle for a nice fall down the stairs, this show does not need a pregnant woman in dangerous situations or, eventually, a baby to take care of), it's that he said it at all. For starters, the way he phrased it was extremely insensitive regarding her grief over Wes. I don't care that he doesn't care that Wes is dead, but Laurel loved him and to say that she should abort her fetus because of his whack DNA is gross and unnecessary. Furthermore, it is not even remotely his business what Laurel should do with her body. Abortion is an extremely personal choice that a woman makes with herself, her doctor, and potentially her close loved ones. Connor is none of these things and his right to express an opinion on the matter is nonexistent.

[Keepitmoving]

I'd actually like to see Laurel have it and give it up for adoption, that would be a different angle for these dramas. It's always a miscarriage and with Shondaland/ABC loosening the reigns and taking the stick out of their asses, they've shown abortion, how about an adoption for a change. Especially considering Michaela being adopted, it might be interesting to have it come up and since they are trying to push more of a friendship between she and Laurel, it could be an interesting, heartfelt convo. Maybe even an open adoption, she can meet up with the kid at the end of the series, because it is called HTGAWM, so some of them should get away with murder, and considering she did actually take a life....she shouldn't be going to jail right? LOL. She should be able to ride off into the sunset with her kid.

Michaela better get off too by the way.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Keepitmoving]

49 minutes ago, helenamonster said:

My problem with Connor telling Laurel to get an abortion isn't that I disagree with it (I think she should get one too; hell, I'd even settle for a nice fall down the stairs, this show does not need a pregnant woman in dangerous situations or, eventually, a baby to take care of), it's that he said it at all. For starters, the way he phrased it was extremely insensitive regarding her grief over Wes. I don't care that he doesn't care that Wes is dead, but Laurel loved him and to say that she should abort her fetus because of his whack DNA is gross and unnecessary. Furthermore, it is not even remotely his business what Laurel should do with her body. Abortion is an extremely personal choice that a woman makes with herself, her doctor, and potentially her close loved ones. Connor is none of these things and his right to express an opinion on the matter is nonexistent.

Yeah, Connor doesn't care about anyone else's love story but his own with Oliver. He clearly didn't care that she was grieving, again, anti-social behavior. I don't even think it registered because it's always all about him. He could have said that to Michaela in private, but he chose to say it right there in front of Laurel, and I don't even think his purpose was to hurt her as in, I hate her so I want to hurt her. He's just selfish and only thinking about Connor and wanted to piss on Wes even in his death for "ruining" his love with Oliver first and foremost.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Tiger]

6 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Connor has been shown to be middle class but not rich. Laurel I would classify as rich. As to why he hasn't gotten a new apt, I think he's still holding out hope of reconciling with Oliver. Regarding his "internalized oppression ", I think it certainly exists within the LGBT community, but I don't think that's Connor biggest issue. Seeing a therapist during turbulent or transitional  times in your life is a good thing. If the show is still following the narrative that Connor came from a loving & supportive family it makes sense. Who knows maybe Wes getting therapy after shooting AK prompted Connor to seek therapy. 

I agree wirh all of this, but maintain Connor previously having and/or experiencing issues with being gay doesn't make sense given what has been established thus far.

That he did so easily break the night of Sam's murder and is once again a mess goes toward him leaving a trauma-free life up until he got sucked into Annalise's vortex.

And at least at this point in the shows' narrative, he and Michaela are the only charactera that deserve happy endings.  But I don't think Connor's happy ending is Oliver; he deserves better.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I agree wirh all of this, but maintain Connor previously having and/or experiencing issues with being gay doesn't make sense given what has been established thus far.

To be honest, I did feel that he might have some kind of issue because of the way he was sticking it to Michaela over Aiden. I always felt like there was a deep seeded jealousy of Michaela, that she got that ring from Aiden, that she was allowed to be with Aiden, a guy he was once into, but couldn't be with because of Aiden's issues. Because there was no way in hell that Aiden was going to be honest with himself and that mother of his about who he truly was, so... So I think he felt used, like all he could be was the hidden piece of ass, yet Michaela gets the ring and that's some bullshit, and I'm here to let her know it is because her man is gay and I've been where she's been. 

 To me his whole vibe was that this isn't just jokes,  he sounded and looked freaking bitter to me when he was going in on Michaela about Aiden, he did.   Then the look on his face in one scene when they were at Oliver's and Michaela is there and he again jokes about how Michaela's type is gay guys, then Oliver says something about who would have thought he would get with a shallow playboy, something to that effect. Well the look on Connor's face said it all, that line from Oliver upset him, the camera flashes right to his face and it's a look that says, that's what you think of me? I don't think he feels valued, clearly not by society and not by Oliver whom he loves. 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

 

9 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Connor has been shown to be middle class but not rich. Laurel I would classify as rich. As to why he hasn't gotten a new apt, I think he's still holding out hope of reconciling with Oliver. Regarding his "internalized oppression ", I think it certainly exists within the LGBT community, but I don't think that's Connor biggest issue. Seeing a therapist during turbulent or transitional  times in your life is a good thing. If the show is still following the narrative that Connor came from a loving & supportive family it makes sense. Who knows maybe Wes getting therapy after shooting AK prompted Connor to seek therapy. 

I agree wirh all of this, but maintain Connor previously having and/or experiencing issues with being gay doesn't make sense given what has been established thus far.

 

That's not what I'm saying.  I don't think Connor seeing a therapist as a teen was a matter of him having issues with being gay. It was more of an issue of going through adolescence as a gay person. He said he hadn't been in therapy since he was 17 and that makes sense to me. It's wasn't a long term deep seated emotional issue, but a short term support sort of therapy. A family that's loving and supportive as Connors has been shown to be would be the type to seek out that sort of help.  

5 hours ago, helenamonster said:

My problem with Connor telling Laurel to get an abortion isn't that I disagree with it (I think she should get one too; hell, I'd even settle for a nice fall down the stairs, this show does not need a pregnant woman in dangerous situations or, eventually, a baby to take care of), it's that he said it at all. For starters, the way he phrased it was extremely insensitive regarding her grief over Wes. I don't care that he doesn't care that Wes is dead, but Laurel loved him and to say that she should abort her fetus because of his whack DNA is gross and unnecessary. Furthermore, it is not even remotely his business what Laurel should do with her body. Abortion is an extremely personal choice that a woman makes with herself, her doctor, and potentially her close loved ones. Connor is none of these things and his right to express an opinion on the matter is nonexistent.

I'm do think Connor was out of line for what he said, but I also see why he did it. Connor cannot handle the mounting guilt over Sam and all the insane things they have done. That guilt is eating him alive but he feels unable to turn himself in. Whether this be because it will drag everyone else down with him or not is a matter of opinion. What's clear is Connor wants to be punished. Pretty much every interaction he had with the K4 and Oli was him pushing people's buttons trying to get them to punish him. He doesn't even fight Asher back, instead he just lies there telling him to hit him. 

2 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

 

Quote

I agree wirh all of this, but maintain Connor previously having and/or experiencing issues with being gay doesn't make sense given what has been established thus far.

To be honest, I did feel that he might have some kind of issue because of the way he was sticking it to Michaela over Aiden. I always felt like there was a deep seeded jealousy of Michaela, that she got that ring from Aiden, that she was allowed to be with Aiden, a guy he was once into, but couldn't be with because of Aiden's issues. Because there was no way in hell that Aiden was going to be honest with himself and that mother of his about who he truly was, so... So I think he felt used, like all he could be was the hidden piece of ass, yet Michaela gets the ring and that's some bullshit, and I'm here to let her know it is because her man is gay and I've been where she's been. 

 

Now that I think about it. That gels. Aiden and Connor knew each other at boarding school. I always got the impression that there was more truth than joke when he said there was a time he thought he would wear Aiden's wedding ring.  Maybe Aiden was Connor's first true love.

[ShowsILoveToHate]

So much happened in this episode and there are so many feelings and opinions posted already, so I really only have 2 comments.

1. Michaela is one of my favorite characters. Ever since she told off Aiden's mother in the restaurant, she's shown her true self.  I see a very smart and strong person.  She doesn't seem to have any problem telling people (Connor, Asher, etc) exactly what she's thinking.  She's not a "yell-er".  her voice gets low and very serious when she wants to get an important message across to someone. I love her and I hope that she ends up with exactly who she wants (whoever that may be), or be by herself; she's shown in so many ways that she *can* take care of herself and take matters into her own hands; despite her childhood  she got good grades and got herself into law school; she maintains a lovely apartment; she takes good care of herself regarding clothing, her home accessories, etc.  She has a big heart and she has empathy which is why she was so upset to see Laurel so upset in her hospital bed, and offered Laurel her help and support.  Again, I think Michaela is an awesome person with a smart head on her shoulders and a big heart.

2.  Asher.  I've watched the episode 3 times now and I keep sensing something else going on in his mind. He seems very distraught about Annalise being in jail and everything is happening to her.  When Bonnie said she was going to the jail to see her, Asher said "Tell her I'm sorry...".  These lines are written by writers who give every word they type some thought, so I don't believe it was a random comment. Also he looked so serious and intent, bordering on anger or guilt (?) while sitting in the courtroom during Annalise's bail hearing.  And yes, Connor has a LOT of issues right now and needed to shut up in Laurel's hospital room but Asher seemed to be really feeling something more than just anger at what Connor was saying.  He commented that Connor doesn't even care that Wes is dead.  I'm getting guilt vibes from Asher, as if he knows something that he isn't telling anyone.

Looking forward to the rest of the season!  I hope that Bonnie eventually puts up a great defense for Annalise and get's her out.

 And for the record, I love(d) Wes and will miss him once he's no longer in flash-backs.

[RedheadZombie]

While I don't necessarily buy Michaela's sudden concern for Laurel, I like it.  I'm tired of TV shows always pitting female characters against each other.  I love Bonnie/Annalise, but a healthy and functional friendship among peers would be refreshing.

16 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Connor has been shown to be middle class but not rich. Laurel I would classify as rich. As to why he hasn't gotten a new apt, I think he's still holding out hope of reconciling with Oliver. Regarding his "internalized oppression ", I think it certainly exists within the LGBT community, but I don't think that's Connor biggest issue. Seeing a therapist during turbulent or transitional  times in your life is a good thing. If the show is still following the narrative that Connor came from a loving & supportive family it makes sense. Who knows maybe Wes getting therapy after shooting AK prompted Connor to seek therapy. 

I've been middle class my entire life, and I've never known a person who went to boarding school.  Perhaps upper middle class would be a better designation?  He seems old money to me - more on Asher's level.  Asher is still in frat boy mode, but since Connor lived in boarding schools, he's probably long moved on from the rush of partying.  I think Asher parties so much at college, because he was temporarily out from under his father's controlling thumb.

If they're going to continue Connor's asshole behavior, I need some background on his family.  Because I personally don't believe he's acting out because of Sam, and Wes "ruining his life".  He's been an asshole since the show started.  Now I buy the trauma exacerbated his baseline petulant, self-centered ways, but it didn't create them.  JMO.

[Tiger]

8 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

If they're going to continue Connor's asshole behavior, I need some background on his family.  Because I personally don't believe he's acting out because of Sam, and Wes "ruining his life".  He's been an asshole since the show started.  Now I buy the trauma exacerbated his baseline petulant, self-centered ways, but it didn't create them.  JMO.

As another poster, some people are just assholes.  

17 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

To be honest, I did feel that he might have some kind of issue because of the way he was sticking it to Michaela over Aiden. I always felt like there was a deep seeded jealousy of Michaela, that she got that ring from Aiden, that she was allowed to be with Aiden, a guy he was once into, but couldn't be with because of Aiden's issues. Because there was no way in hell that Aiden was going to be honest with himself and that mother of his about who he truly was, so... So I think he felt used, like all he could be was the hidden piece of ass, yet Michaela gets the ring and that's some bullshit, and I'm here to let her know it is because her man is gay and I've been where she's been. 

 To me his whole vibe was that this isn't just jokes,  he sounded and looked freaking bitter to me when he was going in on Michaela about Aiden, he did.   Then the look on his face in one scene when they were at Oliver's and Michaela is there and he again jokes about how Michaela's type is gay guys, then Oliver says something about who would have thought he would get with a shallow playboy, something to that effect. Well the look on Connor's face said it all, that line from Oliver upset him, the camera flashes right to his face and it's a look that says, that's what you think of me? I don't think he feels valued, clearly not by society and not by Oliver whom he loves. 

I saw those scenes and the entire Aiden situation differently, but I definitely see where you are coming from.  First, I think Lynn Whitfield knew her son played the flesh flute and fully intended for Michaela to act as his beard while he continued to have sex with men.  

Second, I dont think Connor ever wanted to be Aiden's husband or was jealous that Michaela was going to be wife.  Remember this was before Sam's death and Connor/Michaela were very antagonistic.  I think Connor's behabior was all about exploiting the fact that Aiden liked dick.  

Third, while I agree Connor was hurt that Oliver saw him as nothing more than a shallow playboy, I dont think he was hurt by the implication that that is how society at large saw him.  Oliver has always treated Connor horribly, and I have yet to see one reason why Connor likes him, nor why the ship has so many fans.

Actually scratch that.  It seems like any gay couple is shipped because of this attitude of 'at least we're getting something'. I say fuck that shit.  As a Connor fan, I want better for him and won't ship a pairing because it's the only one producers will give us.

[helenamonster]

On 2/1/2017 at 11:23 AM, Keepitmoving said:

I'd actually like to see Laurel have it and give it up for adoption, that would be a different angle for these dramas. It's always a miscarriage and with Shondaland/ABC loosening the reigns and taking the stick out of their asses, they've shown abortion, how about an adoption for a change. Especially considering Michaela being adopted, it might be interesting to have it come up and since they are trying to push more of a friendship between she and Laurel, it could be an interesting, heartfelt convo. Maybe even an open adoption, she can meet up with the kid at the end of the series, because it is called HTGAWM, so some of them should get away with murder, and considering she did actually take a life....she shouldn't be going to jail right? LOL. She should be able to ride off into the sunset with her kid.

Michaela better get off too by the way.

Laurel hasn't directly killed anyone. Yet.

[Keepitmoving]

15 minutes ago, helenamonster said:

Laurel hasn't directly killed anyone. Yet.

Yeah, I meant to type "didn't."

[Milaxx]

16 hours ago, Tiger said:

Third, while I agree Connor was hurt that Oliver saw him as nothing more than a shallow playboy, I dont think he was hurt by the implication that that is how society at large saw him.  Oliver has always treated Connor horribly, and I have yet to see one reason why Connor likes him, nor why the ship has so many fans.

Actually scratch that.  It seems like any gay couple is shipped because of this attitude of 'at least we're getting something'. I say fuck that shit.  As a Connor fan, I want better for him and won't ship a pairing because it's the only one producers will give us.

I can't say I think Oliver always treats Connor badly. It was Connor who built an entire relationship on a lie. They've both managed to hurt each other. Oliver isn't a saint and Connor isn't the devil incarnate. TBH - As much as I like the couple , I think it would have been more interesting to have the split between these two go entirely different. Let Oliver date, let Connor play the field, but don't make it seem like he's only doing it because he can't have Oliver. I'm all for TV depicting the Brian Kinney's & (first season) Connor Walsh's of the world as long as it's not because they are missing something in their lives. However, tv can't even manage to do that with straight, single people so I'm not holding out much hope. Considering in show time everything we've seen happen to these people occurred over the course of a year I think nearly all the relationships have been a little rushed and some of them feel a little forced as a result.  The ones that work  in my eyes work because the chemistry that the actors have with each other.  

 

As for assholes, honestly I find it odd to try and pick out one character as the asshole.  This is a show about "getting away with murder", featuring a bunch of type A personalities. The underlying theme for the show has always been whether or not they are "good people".  I don't think it's a question of whether or not they are good or bad but why they do what they do.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Milaxx

[Nanrad]

On 1/30/2017 at 6:42 AM, doram said:

Just a quick reply here before I take the rest to another thread:

I meant Grief made her brutally honest. It wasn't either/or. Nothing about her attitude towards Bonnie/Annalisse was new, or something that hadn't been indicated or hinted at before. Her grief just removed her filters. Similarly with Frank - the worse way she could have hurt him was with the truth. Obviously, she won't have ordinarily wanted him dead - and that's not what she said either. She said that he should have died rather than Wes.  

But, what was the point? Why take it out on him? Why did it even need to be said?

[maddie965]

On 1/27/2017 at 6:29 PM, NUguy514 said:

From the recap:

I can't express how absolutely astute I find this.  All of this is what drove Connor to lash out so terribly in Laurel's hospital room.  He thinks of himself as a monster because of all of his lifelong shame at being gay and was actively provoking the others so that someone would just beat the shit out of him verbally or physically, essentially getting someone to treat him externally the way he's been treating himself internally for who knows how long.  All of the self-loathing both Connor and Oliver have exhibited feels so accurate to me: "I'm not worthy of you." "I can only hurt you." "I'm a bad person." "You're so much better than I." Etc.  I don't know a single LGBT person over 25 (including myself) who hasn't gone through that to varying degrees, and I've had to explain to various straight friends and family members over the years where this shame comes from because it's a shame they don't fully understand because they're straight people living in a heteronormative world.  Like Mark, I'm really glad this show is exploring that shame, even if it's in the most over-the-top, soapy way possible.

Also, this is not to say Connor didn't deserve a punch to the face for what he said because he did.  I think Asher went way too far (which provoked a few interesting exchanges between him and Michaela later); however, Connor basically begged him to keep punching him because: self-loathing, and Asher's very real anger issues couldn't hold back.  I actually don't think Michaela was wrong to want Asher to apologize to Connor (although the latter really needs to apologize to Laurel, too), but what I found interesting is that Asher never actually got the apology out before Connor invited him to join him on the bed to watch the news conference.  I don't think Connor even wanted an apology because he got what he asked for and what he thinks he deserved.  I found the whole thing so fascinating because, even if it's to a much less insane degree, I totally get the emotional baggage driving Connor (and Oliver, to be fair).

I agree wholeheartedly with all of this. This is an old thing. Connor has been carrying guilty and shame for a long time, and the Keating murder only made it worse. I also agree with the poster who said Connor is the most interesting character of the K5. He's the only one who can't live with the idea that he participated in a muder. It's killing him inside, and he'll do everything to make people punish him for it. I feel so much for him, every minute of every episode. I want to hug him and tell him to stop being so cruel to himself (but he would probably lash at me too, LOL!). 

Someone said Oliver is the key to everything, the one that will bring them down. Maybe Connor and Oliver are the key. They are the heart of the series. Oliver will realize that the only way to save Connor from himself is turn them all in. And then he'll do it, out of love. And maybe Connor will finally find some peace.

Question: am I the only one who thinks the show revealed the killer in the final minutes of the episode? First, Bonnie tells Frank: "They are saying Wes died in the fire, and it's not true. Come here, I need you", or something like that. How can she know for sure? She knows for sure because she knows exactly what happened there. She and Frank planed the whole thing together. Then, Frank confesses, because he can't stand to see Annalise in prison. But we know Frank is lying, taking a guilty trip, because, well, that's what he does these days. So this leaves only Bonnie. She did this. She killed Wes. Am I alone in thinking this?

Edited February 3, 2017 by maddie965

[Dee]

Bonnie's killed before, so a little pre-meditated murder's not new to her.

[Milaxx]

Honestly at this point anything is possible with this show.

[love2lovebadtv]

On 1/28/2017 at 9:52 PM, Milaxx said:

I also wonder about the small details revealed. Wes was applying to work with immigrants, Connor was in therapy, Michaela knew about Wes & Laurel. Idealized and surreal is a better way to describe them, but those odd tidbits just stick out.

I  think the same thing. I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that it wasn't decided until late who would be killed off. Once it was decided that Wes was under the sheet, then there are holes to fill in.  I think that's what these odd tidbits are.