S03.E10: We're Bad People

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

  I don't care who killed Wes. 

You, I, and apparently the person who wrote that review for the show, for this board, are all on the same page.

[secnarf]

17 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

I'm all about how Asher's violence affected Michaela, glad she told him that she couldn't deal with it, wonder if she saw violence in that household she grew up in. I know she certainly saw drug addiction.

This was my first thought too. And as Michaela pointed out, Asher lost his temper and killed someone. He could have killed Connor. He completely lost his temper and became like a different person. I can see someone who grew up in a violent household reacting badly to that, particularly coming from their partner.

I would like to see Michaela give Connor a verbal lashing, though.

5 hours ago, helenamonster said:

We're also not only just in a post-Wes universe but a post-Keating house universe as well. It's really interesting to have a whole show (minus flashbacks) without that house, given how much time we've spent in it and all the significant moments that have happened there. Eliminating a core location in a show can be just as effective as killing off a major character, and I'm enjoying navigating through this change.

I wonder how this will work! It's like on Buffy, when the library was destroyed at the end of season 3 - a big part of the reason that season 4 seemed so 'off' was the lack of a 'library' or place that served a similar function.

I assume Annalise will need a place to live when she is released (she won't want to live with Bonnie forever) but until then, it will feel a bit off-kilter, imo.

[HunterHunted]

Does Hannah even live in Philly? How is she calling the fire department right when the fire started? This dog of a case should have gone to a grand jury.

I've accepted the accelerated timelines as just something this show does for narrative expediency, but this shit is ridiculous. They arrested Annalise for a death that they didn't know was a murder until days later and a fire they didn't know was arson. They have a person with a known animus towards Annalise, Hannah, who doesn't appear to live in Philly calling the fire department about the fire.

This show has always been ridiculous, but the case they're trying to build against Anna doesn't make sense. Even in the past when the DA was trying to catch Anna, they planted bugs or caught her on camera. This nonsense with Wes' death and arson is magical thinking. I might give up the show. It's obvious that they loved the idea of Annalise getting arrested in front of her burning house and Annalise in jail, but having to pretzel the plot to get those scenes does this show and the actors a huge disservice. I can't even focus on the acting and or the emotional beats because the plot is so bad.

Edited January 28, 2017 by HunterHunted

[Keepitmoving]

I'll have to watch it again, but was there any evidence presented by the prosecution at that hearing to prove arson, WTF?! Did anyone hear any evidence, because now they are claiming it was just the fire that killed Wes, (I don't believe it...) but if that's what they are going with, then where is the evidence that it was arson? Because presenting the paper work that Wes was about to sign to be an informant against Anna isn't enough if you can't freaking prove  that the fire was arson. Again, WTF? Where's the proof or statement in court that they can prove the fire was set on purpose? Did I miss it?  I mean they have motive, but what the hell, that  just isn't enough IMO. Damn there's a whole lot of shit missing for Anna to locked up and damn near in the electric chair for this shit. Norwalk, what are you doing?

Edited January 28, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[wanderingstar]

Quote

Ha.  Dead Wes got jokes!

Yes - and I LOVE it! But it makes me miss him even more!

Quote

Until further evidence is presented, I 100% believe Connor when he says he doesn't care about what happened to Wes. He felt nothing but contempt for him when he was alive. It's fine if he feels nothing, and it would be lame of him to pretend, but he doesn't get to shit on the others who are grieving.

Yeah - if the show tries to act like Connor's masking his grief with anger, I'm gonna call bullshit.

Quote

The fact that he is always saying nasty crap is why I'm hesitant to say his horrible statement to Laurel was part of his grieving process. 

Thank you! I still remember how much Connor relished taunting Michaela about his fling with Aiden. Asshole behavior is not new for him, and it isn't part of any grieving process.

[HunterHunted]

27 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I'll have to watch it again, but was there any evidence presented by the prosecution at that hearing to prove arson, WTF?! Did anyone hear any evidence, because now they are claiming it was just the fire that killed Wes, (I don't believe it...) but if that's what they are going with, then where is the evidence that it was arson? Because presenting the paper work that Wes was about to sign to be an informant against Anna isn't enough if you can't freaking prove  that the fire was arson. Again, WTF? Where's the proof or statement in court that they can prove the fire was set on purpose? Did I miss it?  I mean they have motive, but what the hell, that  just isn't enough IMO. Damn there's a whole lot of shit missing for Anna to locked up and damn near in the electric chair for this shit. Norwalk, what are you doing?

There was no evidence presented to prove arson. They don't even have evidence that Annalise knew Wes planned to be an informant.

[Tiger]

5 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I think it's about star power.  Viola Davis is the star of the show, she's been around a long time, she's paid her dues.  I sometimes think that those scenes in the jail, like those in the beauty shop were about letting other black actresses take the stage.   If that is Viola Davis' doing, then more power to her. 

Viola also has a producer credit this season that I'm prettt sure she did not have in seasons 1& 2.

Also, Shonda has almost nothing to do with Grey's or Murder at this point.  She is busy trying to fix Scandal and Catch, launch StarCrossed, and develop new projects.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Agree with this 1000%. Connor keeps getting a pass with her and I don't understand it.

I get it, Michaela has lived a life of feeling very alone in the world. Now she is in a horror show, as they all are, but because of "Mommy's" closeness to one of the kiddies, it has resulted in these little cliques.  Wes is mommy's favorite, sorry he is, and we all know and understand why given his history with Anna. But that still doesn't matter to the other kiddies who feel left out, who might feel that if Wes wasn't around "mommy" wouldn't give a shit about them, that they are only getting her protection by extension. So it has all bred a boatload of mistrust because that's what happens when mommies have favorites and the other kiddies can see it and feel it.   So from the time that Laurel stole Michaela's ring to the first time that she and Connor ended being cut out of the loop of information, they have formed a bond. Anna goes to Wes, she is all things Wes first and foremost, then Laurel, by extension not to mention, Laurel always had an "in" because she was with Frank at first who's on the inside.  When Michaela and Connor went to Laurel about going to police, Laurel then went and told Anna, so you know... that trust just hasn't been there. So this bond with Connor is one that Michaela understandably has held on to for dear life. I remember her yelling out and pleading with Connor not to leave her at the Hapstall mansion when all that murder and shooting was going down. She of course found him under the stairs shaking in shock and fear, but I was like boy did she sound like an frightened, abandoned little girl with that plea. That feeling left out of the loop is what initially drew them together despite Connor's thoughtless downright evil comments to Michaela on the failings/humiliations in her personal life.  It became even more of a life line as her idol the great Annalise Keating turned out not to be so great. I even think there is a line in the first episode of the season with Michaela saying something to the effect of this is why they say you should never meet your idol, implying that you'll be sorely disappointed that you put them on that pedestal. She knows Connor is a prick, but he has come through where it is most important to her and that is keeping her in the loop of what he knows when it comes to all the crimes that they have been involved in. 

Edited January 28, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[talktoomuch]

The recap was so much better than the show. Splendid!

[teenj12]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, not to be pervy and weird during an emotional episode, but, when Connor pulled open his blankets to let Asher and Michaela into his bed, my mind went quickly to "So...grief three way?". I am a bad person.

Lol, I thought that too. You're not a bad person xD. On this show, sex can happen at literally any minute between anyone. 

Anyway, I thought this was a good return.

• Annalise's jail scenes were done well, and had good acting from Viola Davis. I could feel the timidness and fragility that she was feeling, which is usually such a difference from the strong front she puts on.
• The Wes flashbacks with each of the K4 were pleasant. His character was kind of distant from the other students (besides Laurel) starting with late S2, so it was nice to see him in a final scene with each Michaela, Asher, and Conner respectively. 
• I lol'd at the Wes/Michaela flashback in particular - I think the writers were totally speaking from the audience with the Annalise/Wes dig that Michaela gave, and when both of them acknowledged that they don't really talk.
• Obviously, every main character on this show (aside from Oliver) has some mental health or trauma issues going on, but Conner in particular was pretty bad this week. A lot of what he was describing, about feeling nothing, sounded like depression. 
• Frank taking the fall, whether he did it or not, is way better than Annalise sitting in prison. I honestly can't believe it. I can't believe that Annalise was the only one to spend even a night in jail when she hasn't killed anyone the entire show (*glares at Frank and Bonnie*).

[Dee]

1 hour ago, teenj12 said:

• I lol'd at the Wes/Michaela flashback in particular - I think the writers were totally speaking from the audience with the Annalise/Wes dig that Michaela gave, and when both of them acknowledged that they don't really talk.

A fact which has constantly irritated me.

While I can tolerate Wes and Laurel together, even if their newfound 'Soulmate' status is a bit much; Alfie & Aja, simply sparkle together, onscreen and off.

I've always felt it was a huge missed opportunity not to feature them in more scenes together.

[jhlipton]

Just now, Lady Calypso said:

Viola Davis is spectacular; I enjoyed the prison scenes not even just for her, but for her inmate roommates. 

Her "in-room-mates"?

Just now, DearEvette said:

"If I wasn't so big, it wouldn't have broke."

So if they knew the condom broke, why wouldn't they have gone to the drugstore and bought "Plan B".  That just really jumped out at me.

[Milaxx]

On 1/27/2017 at 7:21 AM, nosleepforme said:

On 1/26/2017 at 11:19 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Yeah, Connor was an ass, and I'm still convinced he saw Wes right before his death. I'm glad Asher punched him, and I'm not on Michaela's side. So Asher go angry and punched Connor. He was out of line. I don't know what's going on with Connor but they better have some good explanations for his behaviour. He's self destructing in the worst way. 

I don't think they need to give another explanation for Connor's behavior at this point. He's been unhinged ever since Sam died and he has blamed Wes for everything that has happened in their lives, which means he can no longer put the blame on him with Wes's death. Put those two together and his behavior in this episode adds up. I think it's so interesting how the character of Connor has gone in a completely different direction from when we first saw him and thought he's going to be the character with the most corrupt morals, when he has now turned out to be the character who's the most vulnerable.

I have always though Connor was all bravado. He plays at being a free spirit playboy to protect himself from attachments and yet still falls hard for Oliver. He's now doing everything in his power to push everyone away, to punish himself for the guilt he feels. He practically begged Oliver to turn them into the police. He didn't even fight back when Asher was punching him. Likely because he thinks he deserves it.

On 1/27/2017 at 9:51 AM, Keepitmoving said:

 

Also that girl did not look like Michaela, but I guess that was part of the point. But do Norwalk and Rhimes think all black girls of certain hue and age range look alike?

 

I don't think she was supposed to . I think they were just playing up that Asher is still an idiot.

On 1/27/2017 at 3:29 PM, NUguy514 said:

  Quote

[Connor and Oliver] clearly want to be together in an uncomplicated way, but the emotional baggage that comes with being a gay man keeps getting in their way. This week, we hear Connor talking about how he needs therapy to sort through his "gay stuff" and his feelings for Oliver, and we see Oliver flail as he tries to love Connor through the latter's self-loathing: this is true to life. Almost every gay person I've ever known -- myself included -- has had to accept that he or she is worthy of love before it's even possible to get down to the business of being in love. And sometimes, the encoded shame that comes from one's church or family or local community is just too strong to overcome, which deforms the ability to love. People get over this, of course, all the time. But it's a process of self-definition that art doesn't explore very often.

That's not what Connor said. He said he hadn't been to therapy since he was 17 and was trying to sort through his"being gay stuff". He did admit to spending all his therapy session talking about Oliver. However I don't think that scene actually ever happened. I think those scenes with Wes are like the last season of LOST when they had these sort flash sideways or alternate universe scenes where things happened slightly different. So all those neon colored scenes with Wes are "what ifs". In these scenes nothing happened after the summer. Well nothing lethal. Annalise isn't under investigation, Wes & Meggy are still together one minute, Connor is in therapy trying to work through his issues. Everything is just slightly different.

On 1/26/2017 at 11:39 PM, pennben said:

Oh no, this episode feels like now all of the brightly lit Wes flashbacks are going to be showing him as Saint Wes. I have this fear because I'm watching This Is Us that utilizes flashbacks and the father there who we know is dead is always presented as a saint in flashbacks.  

Im thinking Oliver is somehow responsible for the fire....not intending deaths but wanting to be part of the Annalise "crew" before realizing how deep this all goes.

Speaking of Oliver, didn't he do the scrubbing of the phones at the lab, but then called them up on a computer at his house and then transferred the files to a thumb drive?  I know very little about technology, but wouldn't he leave a big trail doing that?

I have a theory that the brightly lit St Wes scenes never actually happened. I think they are "what ifs".  The true flashbacks like when Frank picked him up outside the police station  are normal lighting.  These "what ifs" are nearly neon.

On 1/26/2017 at 11:45 PM, Tiger said:

Nice to see L. Scott Caldwell as Annalise's cellmate.  I loved her as Rose on Lost.

Connor was heartbreaking.

I can't decide if Oliver is a balless bitch, or shady as fuck.  His reluctance to go to the police and non-reaction/insta "forgiveness" of Connor was very suspect.  

I don't think Oliver has decided either. He definitely wants to be "in" with the K5, but knowing that include murder he's not sure.

On 1/27/2017 at 0:08 AM, Keepitmoving said:

Another thing, look, I'm all for Michaela helping Laurel out but if it's out of some guilt that she really didn't have that much of a connection to Wes and therefore, decided to focus on herself and she feels guilty, then I'm not interested at all.  Michaela has her own troubles and this  show keeps kicking her around in the love department, making a fucking fool out of her for about two seasons now and I'm sick of it. So I don't give a shit to see some misplaced guilt as the reason she's calling herself a bad person and is telling Laurel she'll be there for whatever she needs. Who the hell is ever going to be there for Michaela? I'm tired of this pattern. 

I'm not seeing it. She appears to be able to draw the line. She sure had no problem putting her foot down with Asher and his shenanigans.

On 1/27/2017 at 10:43 AM, NodakFan said:

I think the bolded was the point of the whole episode, people deal with grief in different ways, and I think each of the characters dealt with it in a very in-character way.  Connor just got the short end of the draw based on his past development.

Some people cry (Asher)

Some people go into care-taker mode (Michaela)

Some people lash out (Connor)

Some people go cold / angry (Laurel - as evidenced by her conversations with Bonnie and Frank)

Some people focus on work as a distraction (Meggie)

Some people evaluate their life / choices (Oliver)

Given what we know of the K4 + Oliver these are all completely in character and appropriate reactions (at least in my opinion)

^^THIS^^ I also think this season we are going to get more fleshed out characterizing of Connor and Micheala. Right now all we're getting is everyone reactions and feelings.

On 1/27/2017 at 0:39 PM, Major Bigtime said:

She looks way better than when she was brought in. She was burned, black all over, barely breathing. Now she's fresh as a daisy with a nice glow. Your guess is as good as mine.

She wasn't burned. She suffered from smoke inhalation. She was covered in soot and ashes, but not really physically injured.  I think her lungs were badly damaged but her physical injuries were mostly superficial.

 

___

Overall I LOVED this episode.

I am somewhat suspect of Inmate Rose befriending AK. I hope things don't get too confusing with the "what if" flashbacks and the true flashbacks Frank did not kill Wes and his confession is going to make things worse.  

Edited January 29, 2017 by Milaxx

[Milaxx]

Forgot to add; If Wes & Laurel knew the damned condom broke, why didn't she go get a morning after pill?

[possibilities]

I thought about the Plan B thing, too. But it's a pretty heavy dose of hormones, and maybe Laurel didn't think she could handle it, since she was talking about her inability to take hormonal birth control earlier in the scene. But none of that explains why she doesn't use a diaphragm.

I like the theory that the colorful Wes scenes were fantasies about "what if"-- they didn't seem credible to me and I was thinking they were dreams (literally when folks were sleeping) at first. But it didn't seem like everyone was awake when having them, so I wasn't sure how to take it. Making them "what if" reveries makes more sense.

[Milaxx]

They just have that alt-verse feel to them.  They all deviate slightly from the truth. Case in point. Connor's therapy revelation. 

Edited January 29, 2017 by Milaxx
not clear if he is, but it's new if

[secnarf]

My initial thought was that the neon scenes were what-ifs, or the characters daydreaming or something. I'm not sure anymore. In all of them, the characters seemed oddly open and somewhat OOC to me, but not drastically so. And did we know about Wes applying for a summer internship?

Re: Plan B, it doesn't have any estrogen so less likely to effect mood (which is what Laurel complained of with the pills she took), but there are other options - Ella works in a bit of a different way as Plan B, and if you want to avoid hormones altogether, a copper IUD is also effective, just more of a hassle. Anyways, she dismissed the issue as her being 'not at risk' since she just finished her period, which (I hope) we all know isn't true, and it kind of surprises me how she dismissed it so easily when she is usually kind of a control freak. It seems like an awfully big thing to leave to chance.

[wanderingstar]

8 hours ago, Dee said:

A fact which has constantly irritated me.

While I can tolerate Wes and Laurel together, even if their newfound 'Soulmate' status is a bit much; Alfie & Aja, simply sparkle together, onscreen and off.

I've always felt it was a huge missed opportunity not to feature them in more scenes together.

This! I will never understand why the show did not take advantage of the great chemistry between Aja and Alfie. Even if it was to have them be friends or frenemies. I would much rather have seen that than the indifference/antagonism we got between them.

[jvr]

Maybe we will see in a flashback that Laurel fucked with the condom because she wanted to become pregnant? It's the only thing I can think of to make sense her lack of concern or taking any of the options they had besides dismissing the possibility outright. What fucking idiots. Laurel hasn't been presented as stupid though so she must have not been concerned with being pregnant with Wes's baby, it's something she would be happy with, even if truly by accident...too bad he is dead now.

I commented in the spoiler thread before the season started that I didn't understand how AK could still be in jail for any length of time with the information we had to end the season and the show still hasn't shown me how that's possible. Can't wait till she is out of there, like others I like fierce strong Anna, and I want to get back to that. I wish Eve could storm back from Cali(?) to help her girl out of this jam, that would be a great story. Did Femke's other show do well?

I'm also interested in seeing where Michaela's momma flew off too, I'm sure she isn't gonna just leave her alone so easily. Also want to see the rest of her kooky family.

[talktoomuch]

The only thing I really liked about this episode was Nate mini-blackmailing the DA. Hated the flashbacks though I was happy to see Wes. Not a fan of alternative facts like interactions that never would have happened in real HTGAWM life. The prison scenes were okay but I can't get past NO PROBABLE CAUSE to accept Annalise's arrest.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, jvr said:

Maybe we will see in a flashback that Laurel fucked with the condom because she wanted to become pregnant? It's the only thing I can think of to make sense her lack of concern or taking any of the options they had besides dismissing the possibility outright. What fucking idiots. Laurel hasn't been presented as stupid though so she must have not been concerned with being pregnant with Wes's baby, it's something she would be happy with, even if truly by accident...too bad he is dead now.

I like the idea that someone had up above, in that the bright lighting indicates that the characters are remembering some of their last moments with Wes, but maybe they're idealizing him. Maybe those actual memories went differently but because of the sudden loss of their friend, those memories are skewed to make things seem a lot happier. So maybe Laurel/Wes were more concerned with the condom breaking. When I was watching that particular scene, I was thinking how fake it seemed, how forcibly happy it was. Maybe it was supposed to appear that way. Just like the first flashback scene with Wes/Annalise, where I thought Annalise looked like she was literally in the know that he was dead, just by the look on her face. Just like I thought that Connor would never openly divulge his therapy secret to Wes like that, at least not that easily. We might even get the actual flashback scenes later on, once they've moved through their grief. 

[Neurochick]

Thinking about those "bright light with Wes" scenes.  I don't believe that the actual flashbacks are filmed in that light.  Interesting that the last scene, with Frank and Wes was a blueish tint.  I can't remember if actual flashbacks are filmed in that blueish tint.

[jhlipton]

The "St Wes" scenes make a lot more sense as "what-if"s, especially Laurel's.  There is no way she would say "Ripped condom -- eh who cares".  Wes would know how big he is (because all black men are, amirite; "I'm not a racist") and buy appropriately sized condoms.  Making it more of an idealized version of the truth makes it so much better.

[harmfulhazards]

While flashforwards have always been greenish, flashbacks had different filters every time. Ones to Rose death had a shade of yellow, ones with Lila and Rebecca had regular lighting. I think it's more to convey the general mood of the scenes. These were supposed to be somewhat fond memories of Wes that other characters have, maybe the overly bright picture was meant to symbolize that. But it does have a surreal feeling to it, because aside from Annalise and Laurel Wes didn't interact much with anyone else. And when he did it was way less friendly than flashbacks show us. Which makes it feel like a retcon.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Nate plays the sexual harassment card. Okay, then. How caught up is that ADA to let herself get checkmated like that? And she's still openly gloating at Annalise because she got Nate. Sometimes Atwood acts like she's still in middle school and I think eventually that will likely be her downfall. Oh well, at least Nate got a wardrobe upgrade. As long as they have to let him wear clothes he does look nice in suits.

They definitely want to make sure the audience believes Lauren's baby is Wes' but I'm still thinking Frank is the daddy.

Could've done without the autopsy scene and all the crispy sound effects.

I don't believe Frank killed Wes and I don't think Annalise did either. I'm leaning toward Bonnie who might now be operating in a fugue state.

Quote

So if they knew the condom broke, why wouldn't they have gone to the drugstore and bought "Plan B".  That just really jumped out at me.

I think this was part of Laurel's plan to pin the baby on Wes. She already knew she was pregnant with Frank's baby. Yeah, that's my theory and I'm sticking to it...

[darkestboy]

Great return episode, loved all of the flashbacks with Wes here.

Pretty obvious that Frank didn't kill him and also obvious that Atwood and her team are determined to send Annalise down, no matter what too.

I did like all of Annalise's scenes with Bonnie and her cellmates in this one and Viola Davis was amazing as always.

Connor somewhat deserved that smackdown from Asher, even if he did get some great scenes with Meggy and Oliver later in the episode. Even I found that he overstepped the mark in this one.

I liked Michaela's scenes with Laurel this week, 8/10

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

Thinking about those "bright light with Wes" scenes.  I don't believe that the actual flashbacks are filmed in that light.  Interesting that the last scene, with Frank and Wes was a blueish tint.  I can't remember if actual flashbacks are filmed in that blueish tint.

The flashforwards are always filmed with the blueish tint. Since we now have our first Flashback Mystery instead of a Flashforward, that's why the Wes/Frank scene was filmed with the same lighting. It's to indicate that it'll be part of the mystery in solving Wes' murder. The bright light flashbacks are just memories or dream sequences and won't have any part in the mystery aspect. 

[wanderingstar]

Annalise's scene with Wes near the beginning of the episode felt like a dream sequence to me. The other flashbacks felt a bit more grounded in reality (e.g., even though his scene with Connor was friendlier than usual, it still had some tension). 

But I also like the idea that they're not actually flashbacks but more idealized memories.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Gillian Rosh

[Milaxx]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I like the idea that someone had up above, in that the bright lighting indicates that the characters are remembering some of their last moments with Wes, but maybe they're idealizing him. Maybe those actual memories went differently but because of the sudden loss of their friend, those memories are skewed to make things seem a lot happier. So maybe Laurel/Wes were more concerned with the condom breaking. When I was watching that particular scene, I was thinking how fake it seemed, how forcibly happy it was. Maybe it was supposed to appear that way. Just like the first flashback scene with Wes/Annalise, where I thought Annalise looked like she was literally in the know that he was dead, just by the look on her face. Just like I thought that Connor would never openly divulge his therapy secret to Wes like that, at least not that easily. We might even get the actual flashback scenes later on, once they've moved through their grief. 

I like the ideal that they are true/but not true, more idealized memories. Most of them include unexpected details. AK is supportive of Wes dating Meggy and applying for that internship, Connor is in therapy and using that therapy to deal with his breakup from Oliver, Michaela jokeing about the fact that she & We never actually spend time together, Asher calls Wes his friend and hangs out with him outside of class and the most unusual of all; Laurel knew the condom broke and took no further precautions.

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

The flashforwards are always filmed with the blueish tint. Since we now have our first Flashback Mystery instead of a Flashforward, that's why the Wes/Frank scene was filmed with the same lighting. It's to indicate that it'll be part of the mystery in solving Wes' murder. The bright light flashbacks are just memories or dream sequences and won't have any part in the mystery aspect. 

I'll have to watch for this. I still think the only true flashback we saw was Frank picking Wes up after he left the police station. I really want to know why Connor wants so bad to be punished. The entire episode he's saying things to push people's buttons. When Asher finally snaps, he's literally yelling , "Hit me!"

Edited January 28, 2017 by Milaxx

[Milaxx]

No fake, just highly idealized.

[Happytobehere]

19 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, not to be pervy and weird during an emotional episode, but, when Connor pulled open his blankets to let Asher and Michaela into his bed, my mind went quickly to "So...grief three way?". I am a bad person.

Since Connor is homeless and leeching off of Michaela, he invited them into Michaela's bed because in typical Connor fashion, he feels entitled to all things.

I for one would love a Connor is the killer reveal so we can get rid of him too.  I can't stand him and think he is the absolute worst.  Use Michaela, blame every thing on Wes yet his punk a** won't turn himself in for all the dirt he has done because his sense of entitlement tells him he is above being held culpable for his actions, hell, his actions are never his fault since other people make his little innocent self do things -- look at the political spectrum and see if Connor reminds you of anyone.

[Milaxx]

I see Connor as self flagellating as opposed to unapologetic. He actually does feel remorse and wants to be punished. He's afraid to do it himself so he tries to push people into doing it for him. Hence his encouraging Oliver to turn them into the police and yelling at Asher to hit him.

[jhlipton]

Just now, Joimiaroxeu said:

Could've done without the autopsy scene and all the crispy sound effects.

"The one and only cereal to come in the shape of law interns!" (http://www.mrbreakfast.com/cereal_detail.asp?id=109)

[starri]

Was anyone else surprised that the cops let Annalise keep her wig?  Or is that the sew-in she got from Ro?  Viola's always had them hit the point that Annalise is at her most vulnerable when she's natural, and she's never been more vulnerable than she is currently.

I spent half the episode honestly thinking L Scott Caldwell was Viola in some prosthetics.  They were definitely styling her to make her look like a more worn-down version of Annalise.  Effective choice, though.  I loved her on both Lost and Southland.

On 1/27/2017 at 3:29 PM, NUguy514 said:

All of the self-loathing both Connor and Oliver have exhibited feels so accurate to me: "I'm not worthy of you." "I can only hurt you." "I'm a bad person." "You're so much better than I." Etc.  I don't know a single LGBT person over 25 (including myself) who hasn't gone through that to varying degrees, and I've had to explain to various straight friends and family members over the years where this shame comes from because it's a shame they don't fully understand because they're straight people living in a heteronormative world.

So much this.  My husband and I still struggle with it, and we've been together for 14 years.

[Keepitmoving]

I think I hate Wes, he's always annoyed the shif out of me. Every damn one of his scenes was like watching paint dry. Sorry, he did not have screen presence. I feel like Connor in that I don't  care that he's dead.  But now with these flashbacks, the lighting has him looking like he has a damn halo over his head and that might be worse than him still being alive. I tiink all this bullshit sainthood thatNorwalk and staff are trying to pull with Wes is going to make me wish his ass was still alive. This is going to be torture for those of us who don't give a shit, damn.

On another note, having sex is also a way of dealing with grief and if fucking Connor wasn't hogging Mickey's bed, I could have gotten a love scene with Michasher. And, it would've been make-up sex too followed by heart to heart discussion, but no we can't have that because everything is about the anointed one, shit.

Look, I'm fine if Connor wants to hang out in Mickey's room with just her, but once her man shows up in that bedroom, he needs to go. I'm sorry, it's not cute to me as it wasn't each time Shonda pulled that shit on Greys. Shonda does not run this show but I see her annoying finger prints on it in many ways, I wish Norwalk would stop copying some of those ways. 

Edited January 28, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

It looks like we're going to gave AK in prison for the rest of the season. I have questions. I'm usually forgiving of things that look like flaws that eventually work themselves out, so maybe I just need to put these thought out. I'll try and google, but anyone with actual legal expertise, please weigh in.

 

I get that AK is not popular with the DA's office. They've been gunning for her since Sinclair. The official charge when they arrested her was arson & 1st degree murder.  I assume that means they think she burned her house in order to kill Wes and prevent him from testifying against her. Since the murder may or may not have occurred as a result of the fire (depending on whether the medical examiner is or isn't saying he was dead before the fire), don't they have to first prove AK set the fire or at least had someone set it?  Wouldn't there be a less obvious way of stopping Wes from testifying? It seems to me her house burning+Wes dying would point directly to her.  Couldn't they give her a high bail & take her passport? What makes her a flight risk?

If the bail hearing is based on the arson charge, wouldn't they need a fire department report stating the fire was the result of arson . They could then argue AK as a flight risk because she's a person of means.

Why would the ME rule Wes's official cause of death a homicide unless she lied to Nate? If Wes did die as a result of the fire and wasn't killed before the fire, wouldn't AK's charge be Arson and manslaughter? Laurel even asked the detectives if they were trying to charge AK with attempted manslaughter, so why wouldn't Wes's death be ruled as manslaughter and not murder? 

ETA: So I get why first degree rather than manslaughter, but don't we need fire investigation to rule the fire as arson BEFORE Anna can be charged with Arson & 1st degree murder?

Edited January 29, 2017 by Milaxx

[Milaxx]

3 hours ago, starri said:

Was anyone else surprised that the cops let Annalise keep her wig?  Or is that the sew-in she got from Ro?  Viola's always had them hit the point that Annalise is at her most vulnerable when she's natural, and she's never been more vulnerable than she is currently.

I spent half the episode honestly thinking L Scott Caldwell was Viola in some prosthetics.  They were definitely styling her to make her look like a more worn-down version of Annalise.  Effective choice, though.  I loved her on both Lost and Southland.

So much this.  My husband and I still struggle with it, and we've been together for 14 years.

This season she has been wearing sew ins. 

I'm also wondering why Wes appears to be the only person Connor told he was in therapy. (If we accept the bright Wes flashbacks as fact.)

[Lady Calypso]

8 hours ago, doram said:

The tint of the flashbacks was the same tint of the summer months in 3.01 when Annalisse was interacting with the members of the K5 individually. In fact, the flashbacks remind me a lot of the Annalisse x Connor pool scene. 

I doubt they were alternative memories. I think they were their "best" memories of Wes. Annalisse imagines him happy - and him refusing to introduce her to Meggy showed that they weren't idylically reconciled. Michaela and Wes actually talk about how they rarely talk to each other. I believed Connor's version because Connor has always been an emotional taker. So I can definitely imagine him sitting down and half-insulting, half-asking Wes for advice, especially since in his mind, they are in the same relationship boat of dating people outside the K5.

Asher and Wes have always got along. That memory wasn't even the "nicest" one they've shared between them. Neither was the Waurel memory. i.e. if these were supposed to be "fake" memories, Laurel especially had happier "real" memories of Wes that she could have called upon. I think the condom breaking talk was exactly what it was. It was a fluke, she had just ended her period and figured the odds were slim to none. Many sexually active people in stable relationships don't worry until it's time to worry (skipped period). If she was hooking up with some random, she'd go the hospital first thing and do a full STI screen, but this was someone she was already fantasising a future with. 

When I talked about the memories maybe not being what they are, I don't mean that they're faked. Just idealized versions. I'm sure they happened, no doubt. It's why each character is remembering them in that moment. It's just that some of them seem too surreal, too happy. They're very subjective versions as the characters remember them, at least that's what it seemed like. They're remembering the best version of Wes in each of the conversation; note how happy he is in each one, almost feeling surreal. My feeling is that the memories are altered, but only when it comes to Wes. The context of the conversation each character has is pretty much the same, but Wes himself is seen in a different light (if that makes any sense). 

[Milaxx]

I also wonder about the small details revealed. Wes was applying to work with immigrants, Connor was in therapy, Michaela knew about Wes & Laurel. Idealized and surreal is a better way to describe them, but those odd tidbits just stick out.

[starri]

1 minute ago, Milaxx said:

Wes was applying to work with immigrants

The timing on that bit was just....ooof.

I know it was because of his mother, but still.

Except for Laurel being worried about getting pregnant, I honestly didn't think they were memories, just some kind of alternate timeline thing.  But I guess the Laurel thing wouldn't make sense in that context.

[healthnut]

This episode was a mess. There is just too much going on, too much baggage, I feel like almost everyone is so unlikeable. I like Michaela/Asher but not so much Michaela by herself. I love Annalise but definitely not prison Annalise. Why is Nate still here? Dude pick a side or go away. 

I'm tired of Conner. I'm over Oliver. They ruined Laurel. She loved Wes more than Frank, how long did they date, like a week? They've also ruined Frank. And Bonnie...sigh. She's great when she's confident but a complete bore when she's all "I'm not good enough" blah, blah. 

I am sure I sound very jaded. I really didn't care about Wes's character but after they killed him, I find myself less tolerant of some of the storylines now. I'll hang in there for the rest of the season. There's what like four episodes left? I don't know about next season, though. Yet, I say that every season around this time, lol. 

[Keepitmoving]

Sorry, I didn't buy her one minute when she told Frank she loved Wes more, she looked and sounded like she was trying way too hard. Girl please, it sounded so childish. Even Wes doubted, poor thing (if one cared). He died not being so sure, based on the argument during their last interaction.  And Asher....Wes was not his friend, I didn't see it at all, it's surely news to me. That was in Asher's head, Wes just happened to be the only one who never took part/pleasure in teasing his ass, like the rest of them including Laurel. But they never had some bond, and heart to hearts. That wasn't a heart to heart in the flashback memory. That was Wes simply walking up just in time to catch Asher in anothe douchebag moment. Did I miss something? Maybe I missed scenes. Hell, ironicly, Connor's flashback with Wes seemed more like a heart to heart moment to me.

Wes seemed indifferent to damn near everyone except Anna, Rebecca and Laurel at the end, as was his right. You gel and connect with whom you feel a connection/chemistry with/to. That's why I appreciated in the flashback that Michaela got to answer back to him that he never tried to know her either. Please, he's looking her in her face and saying that she never tried to talk to him, well you have mouth too Wes. This making Wes seem like he was more important than he was personally to the other characters is ridiculous. He simply wasn't close to the lot of them. He looked at Laurel and told her that her opinion was the only one he cared about. It just seems like people should be losing their shit over him because he was so close to the main diva who's running the show. So because he was that connected to Anna, it seems like he should mean more than he should to other characters and he shouldn't IMO. I mean they should care that he's dead of course, shed some tears here and there, but please give me a break. Hell, I'd be freaked out wondering am I next?  Wes?  Please, we're starting to drop like flies, he's gone, I can't change that, but what can I do to save my damn self?

On another note, before Michaela walks over to Wes in that flashback, I swear she looked like she was stealing something. I swear she slipped a little trinket in her coat pocket. She steals, stealing clearly runs in the family, she tells her mother not to steal anything before she leaves the apartment and the mother doesn't flinch, cause she knows it's true that she steals. So clearly stealing has been modeled for a young Michaela while growing up. And again, where the hell did she get all that stuff? And how the hell is she paying rent?

Edited January 29, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Nanrad]

45 minutes ago, doram said:

Laurel knew Wes about as long as she knew Frank - and arguably, she knew of Frank far less than she knew most of the K-5 because he was always the "hot, mysterious, older guy" and their relationship was entirely about sex. Laurel and Frank never really talked. The first and last real conversation they had was when he fessed up about murdering Lily and she bailed on him. Compare that to Wes with whom she bonded right from the get go. Even if their relationship (Wes/Laurel) had remained platonic i.e. they never dated or slept together - she'd still be honest to say that she loved Wes more than she loved Frank. Bonnie was entirely right when she sized Laurel up from the first and said that her interest in Frank was purely sexual, while he wanted more.  

Right, she knew both the same amount of time and even knew less about Frank, but that doesn't mean that she loved Wes more than Frank unless you mean platonically. It honestly comes off a grief speaking because, despite their communication issues and secrets, it was more than sex for them. So she could love Wes more platonically, but that doesn't mean she loved him more romantically, which was what she wants Frank to believe. 

====

Honestly, I do think that that girl favored Michaela. And I've mistaken a former friend with a complete stranger--she was what, but still. lol. So, I could see how Asher made that mistake.

I'm done with Conner and Oliver. They're so annoying together. I can appreciate Oliver when he isn't with Connor, Connor has worn out my last nerve.

IF Michaela has an issue with violence, that's what she needs to say to Asher rather than put fault on him for Connor's fucked up rambling and punching him in the face. 

I honestly feel sorry for Frank. When it comes to the women in his life, he's like a punching bag. I can somewhat understand Anna but Laurel and Bonnie. It's like been constant verbal abuse one after the other. Anna tried to talk him into killing himself. I think Bonnie has shit talked him to his face about his lack of worth. And then Laurel flat out told him that he should've died instead and blamed everything on him. 

[Milaxx]

2 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

IF Michaela has an issue with violence, that's what she needs to say to Asher rather than put fault on him for Connor's fucked up rambling and punching him in the face. 

She did. When they were outside what looked like the treatment room where Connor was getting patched up she told him violence was a deal breaker. She mentioned something along the lines of thinking Sinclair was a one off, but if it wasn't and this is a pattern of behavior then she wasn't going to put up with it.

[Keepitmoving]

18 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

She did. When they were outside what looked like the treatment room where Connor was getting patched up she told him violence was a deal breaker. She mentioned something along the lines of thinking Sinclair was a one off, but if it wasn't and this is a pattern of behavior then she wasn't going to put up with it.

Exactly, she did.

Quite frankly, I really don't take issue with Michaela not directly focusing her gripe on what Connor said to Laurel as horrid as it was, that's not her job. I'm pissed at her not telling Connor off on behalf of herself first and foremost. Her job is to take care of herself first and given her childhood I don't freaking blame her. So her focusing on the violence and how it would affect her if this is a pattern of behavior for her boyfriend, is totally appropriate. I will not put it on her to go to bat for Laurel, don't worry, all Laurel has to do is snap her damn fingers and Frank will be falling all over himself to take care of her, and murder the likes of Connor if need be.

Bottom line from my perspective, Michaela told Asher to apologize to Connor, not for Connor as much as it was for herself, those two guys have become her little family,  and she wanted it resolved and for them to be at peace again. She's not Connor's mommy and therefore, doesn't need to police his behavior unless she feels directly pissed off by it because it hurts her. She is not Laurel's protector and where not at friendship level yet either IMO. Maybe, if those two young ladies spend more time together because of the baby a real friendship will happen.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Tiger]

On 1/27/2017 at 3:29 PM, NUguy514 said:

From the recap:

I can't express how absolutely astute I find this.  All of this is what drove Connor to lash out so terribly in Laurel's hospital room.  He thinks of himself as a monster because of all of his lifelong shame at being gay and was actively provoking the others so that someone would just beat the shit out of him verbally or physically, essentially getting someone to treat him externally the way he's been treating himself internally for who knows how long.  All of the self-loathing both Connor and Oliver have exhibited feels so accurate to me: "I'm not worthy of you." "I can only hurt you." "I'm a bad person." "You're so much better than I." Etc.  I don't know a single LGBT person over 25 (including myself) who hasn't gone through that to varying degrees, and I've had to explain to various straight friends and family members over the years where this shame comes from because it's a shame they don't fully understand because they're straight people living in a heteronormative world.  Like Mark, I'm really glad this show is exploring that shame, even if it's in the most over-the-top, soapy way possible.

Also, this is not to say Connor didn't deserve a punch to the face for what he said because he did.  I think Asher went way too far (which provoked a few interesting exchanges between him and Michaela later); however, Connor basically begged him to keep punching him because: self-loathing, and Asher's very real anger issues couldn't hold back.  I actually don't think Michaela was wrong to want Asher to apologize to Connor (although the latter really needs to apologize to Laurel, too), but what I found interesting is that Asher never actually got the apology out before Connor invited him to join him on the bed to watch the news conference.  I don't think Connor even wanted an apology because he got what he asked for and what he thinks he deserved.  I found the whole thing so fascinating because, even if it's to a much less insane degree, I totally get the emotional baggage driving Connor (and Oliver, to be fair).

In other news, I'm still thrilled Wes is dead.  Frankly, I think he was the easiest one to lift out because he didn't really have relationships with any of the others but Laurel; the other four are more connected to each other (especially Michaela, Asher, and Connor).  The brightly lit flashbacks were a mixed bag: I don't want them retroactively painting Wes as a saint because he wasn't; while I thought the Laurel and Asher flashbacks were fine, the Connor and Michaela ones seemed really false because those two really wouldn't interact with Wes like that.

I can't wait until Viola wins an Oscar on February 26th.

While I agree that in general, gay guys feel shame, up until this episode that hadnt been presented as Connor's experience and it was the thing I liked most about him.  I do think Connor would or at least should be in therapy for "his murder stuff" and the awful way Oliver treats him, but based on everything shown thus far, especially that conversation with his sister in season 1, I dont think Connor was ever in or needed therapy for "his gay stuff". 

Also, I think it's misplaced to blame that shame on "a heteronormative" society when frankly it's the gay "community" (whatever that is supposed to mean) that treats its own like complete and utter shit.  

That Connor was just a guy who happens to like guys and hadn't experienced any trauma until he got sucked into Annalise's vortex was so refreshing, and I hate that they seem to be undoing that now.  

On another note, I could not agree more about Wes.  He is the cause of all of their misery.  He was obsessed with Rebecca and he killed Sam.  That is all on him. 

Edited January 29, 2017 by Tiger

[Keepitmoving]

4 hours ago, Tiger said:

On another note, I could not agree more about Wes.  He is the cause of all of their misery.  He was obsessed with Rebecca and he killed Sam.  That is all on him. 

Yes he did and now that he's dead no one should pay for anything having to do with Sam.  Even if he was still alive I would feel that way despite him causing this shit with his Rebecca obsession.

Sam was a piece of shit and all of it was in self-defense. I believe there is a law that when an intruder is trying to leave you cannot shoot them. If you shoot them in the back as they are trying to leave you will be charged. They were leaving and he decided to lunge at Laurel because she had picked up that whatever you call it that Rebecca had copied Sam's files onto. 

Fuck, Sam had a pregnant young,college girl killed, he had her murdered, piece of shit. And he used his hold over Frank to carry that murder out. So I don't want to see not one of them pay for his demise. They never went over there to kill nor put a hand on Sam. Michaela was there to speak to Anna about the trophy and sat quietly down in living room/office area to wait for her boss/professor. The hour that she was there is not an issue because they spend hours on end at the Keating residence all the time.  It's Rebecca that decides to escalate shit, when Michaela spots her sneaking up the stairs and then tells her to call annoying ass Wes. Now the rest of them should have stayed downstairs because they were definitely trespassing once they went up into the personal living space, but again, they were leaving and he attacked when he should have let them leave. Call the police if you want after, but the minute the intruders are leaving you cannot assault them, I know that's a law. They have to present a danger to your person, they have to be coming toward your in some way. They posed him no bodily threat, they were trying to get Rebecca and leave.

 Heck, now that I think about it, I can't even blame Rebecca, nor Wes, this shit is Nate's fault, this was his plan. I mean if you can't listen to a cop tell you what's best to do in a situation like that then....Why didn't his trifling ass break the hell into the Keating house to get info. on Sam? Why send that poor girl in there to do the job of a law enforcement officer?

So yeah, NO ONE SHOULD PAY FOR SAM, NO ONE.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[harmfulhazards]

23 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Heck, now that I think about it, I can't even blame Rebecca, nor Wes, this shit is Nate's fault, this was his plan. I mean if you can't listen to a cop tell you what's best to do in a situation like that then....

Nate was not a cop at that moment. He was fired when he was caught snooping around Sam's car a couple of episodes before it. It's somehow Annalise's fault according to Nate, but that's beside the point. Rebecca was an idiot to trust a random stalker whom she knew nothing about.

Why did Nate do it is another question. He had nothing to gain from that investigation. Any "evidence" Rebecca could have obtained this way would be inadmissible. And it's not like it held any personal importance for him because he never even tried to learn what happened to that flash drive or Rebecca after that. Apparently this is Nate's purpose on the show besides being shirtless. To do stupid stuff for no reason at all so other characters won't have to.

It is a bit annoying how the show insists the K4 are so very guilty. They were dragged into a situation that wasn't created by them and only tried to protect a person from getting killed. Not calling 911 immediately when things turned violent and subsequent coverup (which actually was Annalise's idea to boot) were stupid things to do, but that's it. It is nowhere near as bad as the stuff other regulars except Oliver did.

[Miles]

How is there no consultant on this show who actually knows anything about law.

First of all Oliver saying knowing about the murder would make him an accessory. I guess he isn't a law student like the rest of the gang but how did Connor not correct him on that. Even to be an accessory after the fact, you need to actively help somebody to get away with a crime. Just keeping your mouth shut doesn't qualify.

Then the bail hearing was just mind boggingly wrong. It's not enough that the DA has a bit of circumstancial evidence that somebody might have commited a crime. Mainly they have to convince a judge that the defendant is a flight risk. I'm not sure if they could have done it regarding Annalise, but that didn't even come up... Weak.

 

On a slightly funny note, now that he's dead I finally understood Connor's nickname for Wes. I always thought he called him "weightless" because his so skinny, but today I finally heard it correctly and it's "waitlist", because he got in from the waitlist... doy.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Miles

[Neurochick]

6 hours ago, Tiger said:

On another note, I could not agree more about Wes.  He is the cause of all of their misery.  He was obsessed with Rebecca and he killed Sam.  That is all on him. 

Thanks for this.  I never liked Wes either.  I'm also confused about Laurel's attraction to him.  I never got the "great love" vibe from the two of them.  Then again I never understood Wes's Rebecca obsession.