Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[VCRTracking]

9 hours ago, Joe said:

I wonder if Keri Russel will be a villain. Notice that Gwendoline Christie isn't back for ep IX. Out of the four First Order characters we know, Snoke is dead and Phasma might be. While the Resistance has Chewie, Rey, Finn, Poe, Rose, C3PO, kind of Leia, maybe Luke and Lando. There's room for a villainess. What I would find interesting, what if Ren fathers a child? I know Lucasfilm are talking about the end of the Skywalker story, but I don't believe that. The end of this chapter, sure. But in 10 or 15 years... It would be good to leave a couple of plot hooks to return to later on.

If Ren father's Keri Russell's character's child, that would be hilariously amazing.

[Athena]

No more incessant debating. If you won't agree to disagree, ignore it, block posters, and move along. Warnings will be handed out next time.

[Zuleikha]

I wonder if Keri Russel will be a villain. Notice that Gwendoline Christie isn't back for ep IX. Out of the four First Order characters we know, Snoke is dead and Phasma might be.

That's disappointing. Not because I love Phasma so much, but because her character ended up such a complete waste of screentime and potential. Her ending in TFA wasn't great, but IMHO, it would have been better to have her end there than have TLJ be the end of things.

Also, it usually takes more than one installment to turn me off something. Yeah, I'm familiar with the last straw, but what about all the straws before that one? Were people complaining about those?

It's because TLJ left the story and the characters in a really boring place for a lot of us. I didn't care all that much about Poe after TFA because he was a shallow, tertiary character, but he was at least charming. TLJ took that away for me. I LOVED Rey and Finn after TFA, but they have no interesting story. Sure, Rey can grow in the Force but she's now defeated Kylo Ren twice, and she faced the Dark Side cave with seemingly zero temptation. What's her conflict? What's her challenge? Likewise with Finn... he's killed Phasma and is content with his role in the Resistance. What character growth is there? And don't get me started on the idea of mass murdering, nihilistic Kylo Ren's redemption being something to cheer for--negative interest in that one! While I like Kelly Marie Tran fine as an actress, I found Paige Tico to be the way more interesting sister. Rose also has no conflict or obvious story.

Meanwhile, the Resistance itself was left in a ridiculous position by the end of TLJ, which theoretically should make the question of where they go from there compelling. But it doesn't because the First Order was ALSO left in a ridiculous position (Starkiller Base was already destroyed; Hux and Kylo Ren are incompetent leaders). Plus, TLJ actually managed to make the whole political plot less coherent than it was in TFA, which is saying a lot since the political plot was the least successful aspect of TFA. So the stakes are muddy and the characters seem to have nowhere left to grow.

I currently plan to watch the third movie, and I'm hopeful that J.J. Abrams will rescue this story. He can tell an essentially standalone story, using the characters and the conditions that he's been given. But I only plan to watch the third movie because TFA made me love Rey and Finn so much that I'm still invested in them as characters.

[Joe]

The Resistance, or Rebellion as they're calling themselves again, has to rebuild from nothing. We probably won't see that bit, and jump straight to the buildup to the big battle. Like the second half of ROTJ. Lead by Lando again, since he would be the senior English-speaking officer. Chewie should have seniority, really. Hah! Can you imagine a mission briefing given entirely in Shyriiwook, with all the Humans nodding along like they understand? Funny, but it won't be happening.

Poe is an interesting case. He probably won't be court-martialled, but some awareness of his actions would be nice. Rey and Ren need some kind of final confrontation. Finn and Rose, I have no idea. There probably won't be much for Hux to do. Will they go back to the comedy self-important well, or play him seriously? I'm not sure the audience will take him seriously again, unless he actually does something to make that happen.

Luke and Leia will probably have small parts. You don't want too much force ghost, and the Leia footage is limited. Keri Russel I have no idea, but I'm hoping for First Order officer.

I don't want any mention of a new rebellion, because there was a terrible EU book by that name.

[VCRTracking]

If JJ Abrams pulls people disappointed by TLJ back into Star Wars with Episode IX it will be a far bigger, more impressive feat than TFA bringing back fans disillusioned by the prequels!

Edited August 6, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Andrew Wiggin]

I just watched this review

and he got good Points but the Part that got me the most starts at 11.30 .

I quit liked the Part in the Movie it looks cool and is quit satisfying.

But he is right if you think about it its absolut stupid to use that Trick in a Movieseries because if its possible why didnt they use it from the beginning ?

Or  why didnt use it to destroy the first to Deathstars after the Shields there down ?  One off the capital Ships right through the Center bye bye Deathstar^^ no defence nothing to Counter it.

Its a Deus Ex trick you can use in a Single Movie but not in a Series.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Andrew Wiggin

[VCRTracking]

17 minutes ago, Andrew Wiggin said:

Or  why didnt use it to destroy the first to Deathstars after the Shields there down ?  One off the capital Ships right through the Center bye bye Deathstar^^ no defence nothing to Counter it.

Holdo was able to do what she did because she was only sacrificing herself and it was a desperate play. Most of the time you have hundreds of valuable personnel on board a ship and usually you don't waste a capital ship if you have other options like running away. Hyperspace tracking had just been invented but previously when ships get into that situation, they flee without having to worry about being caught.

Edited August 9, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Andrew Wiggin]

If it works as shown in the Last Jedi  you can bring Empty Ships with you and let  Volunteers pilot them. The outcome Looks Like a Shotgun shot its quit devastating .

As he says in the Video they brought Warp Torpedos with this into Star Wars.

Take  a Steelprojektile put a Hyperspace Engine on it Byebye Capital Ship.

[VCRTracking]

17 minutes ago, Andrew Wiggin said:

If it works as shown in the Last Jedi  you can bring Empty Ships with you and let  Volunteers pilot them. The outcome Looks Like a Shotgun shot its quit devastating .

 

You'd end up having battles fought with large capital ships piloted by just one person.

Here's what I found on Wikipedia about Kamikaze tactics:

Quote

About 3,800 kamikaze pilots died during the war, and more than 7,000 naval personnel were killed by kamikaze attacks

These attacks, which began in October 1944, followed several critical military defeats for the Japanese. They had long since lost aerial dominance as a result of having outdated aircraft and enduring the loss of experienced pilots. Japan suffered from a diminishing capacity for war and a rapidly declining industrial capacity relative to that of the Allies. Japan was also losing pilots faster than it could train their replacements. These combined factors, along with Japan's unwillingness to surrender, led to the use of kamikaze tactics as Allied forces advanced towards the Japanese home islands.

So basically, Kamikaze tactics were only tried out of desperation and you had a military with people willing to sacrifice themselves. Even though they were effective other countries' air force don't do it because it's a waste of both life and equipment.

Edited August 9, 2018 by VCRTracking

[ICantDoThatDave]

Just attach hyperdrives to large asteroids & trigger them by remote.  No need for kamikazes.

[Andrew Wiggin]

Yeah but as i sayed that they did is bring Warp torpedos into Star Wars so no need for Pilots.

And if this worked here it should have worked in New Hope and  Return of the Jedi there was no need for any off the X Wing pilots to attack the Deathstars.

1 Volunteer in a Capital ship = 1 Death against many in a X Wing Squad and no countermessure.

They need to forget it for episode IX or you can scratch the Epic Space Battle ^^

Thats  way you dont use a Deus ex Machina ^^

Edited August 9, 2018 by Andrew Wiggin

[VCRTracking]

19 minutes ago, Andrew Wiggin said:

And if this worked here it should have worked in New Hope and  Return of the Jedi there was no need for any off the X Wing pilots to attack the Deathstars.

The Raddus was close enough to the Supremacy where it could go into light speed and do damage because they're roughly the same size.

The Rebels's biggest ship was still not even half the size of the Imperial flagship Executor and this happened:

Edited August 9, 2018 by VCRTracking

[VCRTracking]

20 minutes ago, Andrew Wiggin said:

Yeah but as i sayed that they did is bring Warp torpedos into Star Wars so no need for Pilots.

When did they bring in warp torpedos?

*Damn, I wish these posts would merge.

Edited August 9, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Andrew Wiggin]

Yeah but was only a impact ,its not the same as the Deus ex Machina they used in the Last Jedi look at that happend from 12.10 onwards thats no impact the Ship goes stright through the first ship and through all other Ships behind.

Hyperdrive attack is the same effect as a Warp Torpedo.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Andrew Wiggin

[VCRTracking]

5 minutes ago, Andrew Wiggin said:

Yeah but was only a impact ,its not the same as the Deus ex Machina they used in the Last Jedi look at that happend from 12.10 onwards thats no impact the Ship goes stright through the first ship and through all other Ships behind.

Hyperdrive attack is the same effect as a Warp Torpedo.

The other ships were all either just a little larger or roughly the same size.  They weren't the size of a planet like the Death Star.

[Andrew Wiggin]

FRom Wookieepedia:

Death Star 2

Width

200 kilometers

Supremacy

13.23 Kilometers

So if you look on the Ships who there Destroyed behind the Supermacy i would say the Destruction goes min 100 Kilometers deep and it is Spreading.

I dont think it would survive that Hit ^^

As i sayed it looks cool but if you think about that just happend its terrible Lorewise.

The Scene on the Supermacy dont make it any better they know that will happen at 3.55 so why didnt use anyone this bevor ?

[Joe]

Kelly Marie Tran talks about her harassment. Good on her, I say. Stay strong. I'm not the biggest Rose Tico fan, but I'm not the type to give someone shit in the first place.

[SimoneS]

Loan (Kelly Marie) Tran wrote about the impact of online bullying and harassment on her in the NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/21/movies/kelly-marie-tran.html

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

Loan (Kelly Marie) Tran wrote about the impact of online bullying and harassment on her in the NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/21/movies/kelly-marie-tran.html

That was awesome.  Suck it, trolls.

[memememe76]

I just watched The Last Jedi. I am not the biggest SW fan anyway, I have only seen each installment once. I like some more than others. This one is middling, but it wasn't terrible. I don't understand the hate for Loan Tran. I thought she was fine. I am very sad she had to go through this. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by memememe76

[Joe]

6 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Loan (Kelly Marie) Tran wrote about the impact of online bullying and harassment on her in the NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/21/movies/kelly-marie-tran.html

Of course I forgot to link the article. Thanks!

[VCRTracking]

On the one year anniversary of it's release there are a lot of thinkpieces online now about TLJ but I decided not to post links to any because I didn't want to get into more endless arguments about it. Until I saw this one:

Obviously THE LAST JEDI’s Throne Room Fight Scene Is About Online Dating

[Joe]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

On the one year anniversary of it's release there are a lot of thinkpieces online now about TLJ but I decided not to post links to any because I didn't want to get into more endless arguments about it. Until I saw this one:

Obviously THE LAST JEDI’s Throne Room Fight Scene Is About Online Dating

I do love some fun overthinking about SW. Good find!

[Danny Franks]

On 19/12/2018 at 6:55 PM, VCRTracking said:

On the one year anniversary of it's release there are a lot of thinkpieces online now about TLJ but I decided not to post links to any because I didn't want to get into more endless arguments about it. Until I saw this one:

Obviously THE LAST JEDI’s Throne Room Fight Scene Is About Online Dating

I don't know about most of that, but I remember saying at the time that Kylo Ren's 'I'm the only one who understands you, no one else appreciates you like me' Nice Guy act is dropped like a bad habit, as soon as he realises Rey isn't buying it, and then he negs her by calling her parents worthless losers, and implies she's worth nothing herself. That part of it seems very in line with the online dating experiences people have recounted to me.

I'm fairly sure Rian Johnson deliberately wrote it that way, to add to Kylo Ren's very contemporary villainy - school shooter, idolises notorious criminals, Nice Guy who turns toxic when he doesn't get what he wants.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Danny Franks

[Perfect Xero]

14 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I don't know about most of that, but I remember saying at the time that Kylo Ren's 'I'm the only one who understands you, no one else appreciates you like me' Nice Guy act is dropped like a bad habit, as soon as he realises Rey isn't buying it, and then he negs her by calling her parents worthless losers, and implies she's worth nothing herself. That part of it seems very in line with the online dating experiences people have recounted to me.

I'm fairly sure Rian Johnson deliberately wrote it that way, to add to Kylo Ren's very contemporary villainy - school shooter, idolises notorious criminals, Nice Guy who turns toxic when he doesn't get what he wants.

 

I'd argue that Kylo Ren isn't a "Nice Guy" at all in this context, he's the embodiment of the dark brooding asshole 'bad boy'. The sort of guy that "Nice Guys" hate because girls try to fix him even though he's a mean jerk instead of just dating a guy who is already "Nice" and has never hurt her before.

The entire Rey/Kylo story is Rian teaching Rey (and the audience) a lesson about why girls shouldn't try to save bad boys.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Perfect Xero

[Zuleikha]

The entire Rey/Kylo story is Rian teaching Rey (and the audience) a lesson about why girls shouldn't try to save bad boys.

Which is so freaking patronizing and such an insulting storyline for the character of Rey. 

This is why I find it so frustrating that fans of TLJ keep pretending that people who didn't like it are just anti-SJW or Russian trolls. The weaknesses of the movie's story are so easy to articulate. 

[VCRTracking]

double post.

Edited December 22, 2018 by VCRTracking

[VCRTracking]

44 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

Which is so freaking patronizing and such an insulting storyline for the character of Rey. 

This is why I find it so frustrating that fans of TLJ keep pretending that people who didn't like it are just anti-SJW or Russian trolls. The weaknesses of the movie's story are so easy to articulate. 

And I don't agree that it insults Rey nor is it a weakness in the story. I know there are people who didn't like TLJ have legit reasons. The ones who are obviously anti-SJW I don't want to engage with.

Watching them back to back recently in TFA Han says "One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible, just walked away from everything." Now when most fans who heard that in 2015 myself included, thought "Well, obviously he wasn't and that's not why he  really left." but TLJ showed yes, it was.

Edited December 22, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Joe]

2 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Which is so freaking patronizing and such an insulting storyline for the character of Rey. 

This is why I find it so frustrating that fans of TLJ keep pretending that people who didn't like it are just anti-SJW or Russian trolls. The weaknesses of the movie's story are so easy to articulate. 

Rey doesn't seem like a woman of the world. She grew up on her own in the middle of nowhere. She doesn't automatically know these things, and neither does every member of the audience.

And there is a large anti-SJW and troll element. You can't dismiss those people so easily.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Joe said:

4 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

14 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

The entire Rey/Kylo story is Rian teaching Rey (and the audience) a lesson about why girls shouldn't try to save bad boys.

Which is so freaking patronizing and such an insulting storyline for the character of Rey. 

Rey doesn't seem like a woman of the world. She grew up on her own in the middle of nowhere. She doesn't automatically know these things, and neither does every member of the audience.

 

Only Rey is a woman of the world. A woman of a hard, bitter, desert world where she grew up as a slave/indentured servant, and literally has to scrape and fight just to stay alive for one day.You don't teach a woman like that that people are untrustworthy. That was her "elementary-school" education. Her arc should have been (or was, pre-TLJ) about learning how to trust people, to put her faith in people and that there were good, honorable people in the world. The fact that Rian Johnson took one look at the character and thought "pretty white girl: definitely needs a lesson on not trusting "hot" but bad white boy" says how little he understood - or more likely - cared to understand about Rey's backstory. When people say that Rey became as supporting character in TLJ, to Kylo vs Luke, this is what they mean. Because Rey as a character - her back-story, her personality, her basic literary definition  - is inconsequential in this movie, and she becomes a prop to the characters that Rian is clearly more invested in. 

4 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

This is why I find it so frustrating that fans of TLJ keep pretending that people who didn't like it are just anti-SJW or Russian trolls. The weaknesses of the movie's story are so easy to articulate. 

Because it's easier to bury the real problems in the film under the "you're a racist Russian troll" shtick. 

Edited December 22, 2018 by ursula

[supposebly]

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

Her arc should have been (or was, pre-TLJ) about learning how to trust people, to put her faith in people and that there were good, honorable people in the world.

I think she was pretty well versed in not trusting people. However, I think her insistence that he could be saved showed she wasn't immune to the shirtless bad boy either.

She CAN be both.

[Joe]

34 minutes ago, ursula said:

Only Rey is a woman of the world. A woman of a hard, bitter, desert world where she grew up as a slave/indentured servant, and literally has to scrape and fight just to stay alive for one day.You don't teach a woman like that that people are untrustworthy. That was her "elementary-school" education. Her arc should have been (or was, pre-TLJ) about learning how to trust people, to put her faith in people and that there were good, honorable people in the world.

Where are we shown that? Not in TFA. We see right from the start that she's an idealist who is prepared to help people where she can. She's Luke, not Han.

[Zuleikha]

 The fact that Rian Johnson took one look at the character and thought "pretty white girl: definitely needs a lesson on not trusting "hot" but bad white boy" says how little he understood - or more likely - cared to understand about Rey's backstory.

Yes, so much this! 

Also, it's simply not a logical place nor an INTERESTING place to take Rey's story after TFA. She had already rejected Kylo Ren. She had already been literally tortured by him and had seen him murder his own father in cold blood when his father was offering a path of return and forgiveness. And IMHO, it says a lot that Johnson thought the best place to take Rey's character was into a Reylo plot instead of meaningfully exploring her powers, her relationship to the Jedi, her ability to be a leader of a team of people, and her own actual Dark Side (because yes, that cave sequence was powerful to watch but it doesn't show Rey tempted by the Dark Side at all). Or using the Rey/Luke interactions to ACTUALLY articulate a critique of the Jedi and show the characters wrestling with the question of whether the Jedi philosophy is actually the best way to be a Force user! 

She CAN be both.

Of course, she can be both. She's a fictional character. She can be whatever the writing makes her be. But WHY is the question? Who is that storyline interesting for? How does it grow the story and character beats established in TFA? 

And there is a large anti-SJW and troll element. You can't dismiss those people so easily.

I can actually. The Russian troll study was debunked as a misinterpretation of the data about a hot second after it went viral. The anti-SJW element is obviously very real, but they were very real when it came to TFA and Rogue One as well. Yet, they didn't affect those movies' performances. They didn't affect Black Panther or Wonder Woman. Also, there's nothing Johnson could have done to please people who simply didn't want to see Boyega, Ridley, or Tran have significant screen time. But there's a lot Johnson could have done differently to satisfy the many fans of TFA.

[Joe]

23 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

 Also, there's nothing Johnson could have done to please people who simply didn't want to see Boyega, Ridley, or Tran have significant screen time. But there's a lot Johnson could have done differently to satisfy the many fans of TFA.

Yes, he could have produced something safe and boring and derivitive. We already got a remake of ANH, let's just do ESB again. Hell, get Gus Van Sant to direct. No, that would be leaning too far in the other direction. Sure, TLJ isn't my favourite movie. I would have done some different things. But I enjoyed what we got anyway. Some people project all kinds of interpretations and motivations to the movie, some that are opposite to what was shown and said. That is something I don't understand.

[Zuleikha]

Yes, he could have produced something safe and boring and derivitive.

Or he could have produced something that was neither safe nor boring nor derivative, but still continued the story and character beats that were established in TFA. Just saying, that option was there.

And while I don't at all agree that TFA was simply a remake of ANH (or safe, boring, or derivative), given how much more favorably it was received, perhaps Johnson should have worried less about being different.

[Joe]

6 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Or he could have produced something that was neither safe nor boring nor derivative, but still continued the story and character beats that were established in TFA. Just saying, that option was there.

But IMO, he did. Sure it was unexpected, but it all hangs together pretty well.

[VCRTracking]

22 hours ago, ursula said:

Only Rey is a woman of the world. A woman of a hard, bitter, desert world where she grew up as a slave/indentured servant, and literally has to scrape and fight just to stay alive for one day.You don't teach a woman like that that people are untrustworthy. That was her "elementary-school" education. Her arc should have been (or was, pre-TLJ) about learning how to trust people, to put her faith in people and that there were good, honorable people in the world.

That was Jyn Erso's arc in Rogue One. She was hardened and bitter and untrusting(which is where the comparisons to Katniss Everdeen come from). Rey in TFA very much like a child, with her Rebel pilot doll and putting on the old Rebel pilot helmet while she eats dinner, her optimistic belief after so many years that her parents will return and her at the legend of Luke Skywalker. She is very naive and becomes very attached to people once they show her kindness. Those qualities are led her down the path she took in TLJ.

19 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Also, it's simply not a logical place nor an INTERESTING place to take Rey's story after TFA. She had already rejected Kylo Ren. She had already been literally tortured by him and had seen him murder his own father in cold blood when his father was offering a path of return and forgiveness. And IMHO, it says a lot that Johnson thought the best place to take Rey's character was into a Reylo plot instead of meaningfully exploring her powers, her relationship to the Jedi, her ability to be a leader of a team of people, and her own actual Dark Side (because yes, that cave sequence was powerful to watch but it doesn't show Rey tempted by the Dark Side at all).

Basically copying Luke's arc in Empire which would have been insulting in a different way. I'm really glad though they decided to introduce Rey in Episode 7 and push this story to Episode 8 instead of the original outline by Lucas where the sequels start with Luke being secluded in the Jedi temple and an aspiring female student seeks him out.

Quote

Or using the Rey/Luke interactions to ACTUALLY articulate a critique of the Jedi and show the characters wrestling with the question of whether the Jedi philosophy is actually the best way to be a Force user! 

All that did happen but in a different way.  It wasn't just Reylo Skype scenes. There is a deleted scene. The "third lesson" but it was cut because Luke was too much of a jerk.  (even though I love it).

 

17 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

And while I don't at all agree that TFA was simply a remake of ANH (or safe, boring, or derivative), given how much more favorably it was received, perhaps Johnson should have worried less about being different.

TLJ is the top grossing movie of 2017 and the number one selling blu ray of 2018. The disappointing box office of Solo only proves Star Wars movies need to be a year apart for the public to be excited about it again(and that they're no longer summer movies but Christmas ones).

Edited December 23, 2018 by VCRTracking

[ursula]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Rey in TFA very much kike a child, with her Rebel pilot doll and putting on the old Rebel pilot helmet while she eats dinner, her optimistic belief after so many years that her parents will return and her at the legend of Luke Skywalker. She is very naive and becomes very attached to people once they show her kindness. Those qualities are led her down the path she took in TLJ.

 

Rey wasn't a child? Nor was she naive? She was a scavenger who had to be street-smart and cynical to have survived as long as she did. Just because the movie showed us moments of hope and vulnerability to round out her character doesn't negate the obvious: she couldn't have survived as long as she had if she was naive.

If anything, this argument is straight out of the anti-SJW textbook: the concept that Rey is incompetent and her powers/abilities are unearned even though her very existence is evidence that none of this is true. The movie didn't have to tell us that Rey was a street-smart survivor, it showed us this by the fact that she was still alive and free on a planet where she could have been sold into slavery on a whim. (And all this before we're given the information that she was indeed once a slave). 

Quote

very attached to people once they show her kindness

Which Kylo did... how?

If anything, the reverse of this statement ---- that someone like Rey would be very unforgiving to cruelty having been on the receiving end of it for so long - is more pertinent to framing her relationship with Kylo. Which makes the TLJ! dynamic even more baffling. 

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

 

18 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

And IMHO, it says a lot that Johnson thought the best place to take Rey's character was into a Reylo plot instead of meaningfully exploring her powers, her relationship to the Jedi, her ability to be a leader of a team of people, and her own actual Dark Side (because yes, that cave sequence was powerful to watch but it doesn't show Rey tempted by the Dark Side at all).

Basically copying Luke's arc in Empire which would have been insulting in a different way. I'm really glad though they decided to introduce Rey in Episode 7 and push this story to Episode 8 instead of the original outline by Lucas where the sequels start with Luke being secluded in the Jedi temple and an aspiring female student seeks him out.

Or more accurately, copying every single Hero's Journey's Arc from King Arthur to Frodo to Peter Parker to Luke Skywalker to Neo to Harry Potter to Buffy. And yes, the fact that there is one female character in that list is not a coincidence. Rian could not conceive writing a female hero as a hero, but as a prop to the closest white guys. That's the real insult in this. Not this faux-subversion that essentially retains the status quo of white men being important in their own right and women being important in their proximity to men.

Edited December 23, 2018 by ursula

[Crs97]

Their decision not to show Rey exploring her powers was a major mistake IMO.  It turned her into a Mary Sue.  Two seconds after learning she has Jedi powers she is having to school Luke on how it all works and what their responsibilities are.  It  destroys the character of Luke, which effectively ruins the original trilogy (for me at least).

I ended up seeing Solo and enjoyed it.  People who disliked TLJ shouldn’t feel like they have to stay away from it, too.

[Joe]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

 

Rey wasn't a child? Nor was she naive? She was a scavenger who had to be street-smart and cynical to have survived as long as she did. Just because the movie showed us moments of hope and vulnerability to round out her character doesn't negate the obvious: she couldn't have survived as long as she had if she was naive.

If anything, this argument is straight out of the anti-SJW textbook: the concept that Rey is incompetent and her powers/abilities are unearned even though her very existence is evidence that none of this is true. The movie didn't have to tell us that Rey was a street-smart survivor, it showed us this by the fact that she was still alive and free on a planet where she could have been sold into slavery on a whim. (And all this before we're given the information that she was indeed once a slave). 

Which Kylo did... how?

If anything, the reverse of this statement ---- that someone like Rey would be very unforgiving to cruelty having been on the receiving end of it for so long - is more pertinent to framing her relationship with Kylo. Which makes the TLJ! dynamic even more baffling. 

Or more accurately, copying every single Hero's Journey's Arc from King Arthur to Frodo to Peter Parker to Luke Skywalker to Neo to Harry Potter to Buffy. And yes, the fact that there is one female character in that list is not a coincidence. Rian could not conceive writing a female hero as a hero, but as a prop to the closest white guys. That's the real insult in this. Not this faux-subversion that essentially retains the status quo of white men being important in their own right and women being important in their proximity to men.

Rey was a slave. If she didn't scavenge, she didn't get food. And considering the diminishing amount she received, she couldn't stockpile and save enough to strike out for another town.

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

Their decision not to show Rey exploring her powers was a major mistake IMO.  It turned her into a Mary Sue.  Two seconds after learning she has Jedi powers she is having to school Luke on how it all works and what their responsibilities are.  It  destroys the character of Luke, which effectively ruins the original trilogy (for me at least).

I ended up seeing Solo and enjoyed it.  People who disliked TLJ shouldn’t feel like they have to stay away from it, too.

She doesn't. She tells Luke repeatedly to come back, but that's all. He's the one who tells her what the Force is. And she does explore her powers. First through lightsabre training, the second through reaching out and touching Ren.

I love TLJ, but found Solo incredibly boring for the most part.

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

Rey wasn't a child? Nor was she naive? She was a scavenger who had to be street-smart and cynical to have survived as long as she did. Just because the movie showed us moments of hope and vulnerability to round out her character doesn't negate the obvious: she couldn't have survived as long as she had if she was naive.

If anything, this argument is straight out of the anti-SJW textbook: the concept that Rey is incompetent and her powers/abilities are unearned even though her very existence is evidence that none of this is true. The movie didn't have to tell us that Rey was a street-smart survivor, it showed us this by the fact that she was still alive and free on a planet where she could have been sold into slavery on a whim. (And all this before we're given the information that she was indeed once a slave). 

You can be street-smart and cynical but still be immature(see Han Solo).  Once she's off world, how she is with Finn, with Han and how she running from the vision is not how an adult would behave.

3 hours ago, ursula said:

Or more accurately, copying every single Hero's Journey's Arc from King Arthur to Frodo to Peter Parker to Luke Skywalker to Neo to Harry Potter to Buffy. And yes, the fact that there is one female character in that list is not a coincidence. Rian could not conceive writing a female hero as a hero, but as a prop to the closest white guys. That's the real insult in this. Not this faux-subversion that essentially retains the status quo of white men being important in their own right and women being important in their proximity to men.

Besides being as vastly different to each other as Rey's arc was to Luke, they were based on a burden they never wanted or asked for. Arthur was the son of King Uther, Frodo was passed the One Ring by his uncle, Peter Parker's guilt over his uncle's death, Harry Potter, Neo and Buffy because of a "Chosen One" prophesy. Luke doesn't feel the real hero's burden until Return of the Jedi after he finds out the truth about his father. Up to that point Yoda felt he wasn't ready for it. After ROTJ it becomes even greater. Rey doesn't have that weight of responsiblity and burden at the end of TFA. Rey ran from the visions because After she's captured she starts to see her power. Even after using it to fight Kylo she still didn't want the lightsaber and was willing to give it to Luke. Then she sees she that she could turn Ben to the light side the way Luke did with Vader and he'll be the savior. Rey at the end of her arc in TLJ accepts she, not Luke or Ben is the one to be the one to save the Resistance and defeat the Dark Side. Not because of blood-ties or a prophesy but because she can.

3 hours ago, ursula said:

Which Kylo did... how?

If anything, the reverse of this statement ---- that someone like Rey would be very unforgiving to cruelty having been on the receiving end of it for so long - is more pertinent to framing her relationship with Kylo. Which makes the TLJ! dynamic even more baffling. 

Kylo couldn't defeat Rey in TFA because she turned out to be just as powerful. He was only able to get to her by allowing himself to be just as vulnerable as she was until he asked her to join him.

Edited December 23, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Zuleikha]

These conversations always go in circles, so I'm just going to say ursula, +1 to everything you said but especially this: "Rian could not conceive writing a female hero as a hero, but as a prop to the closest white guys. That's the real insult in this. Not this faux-subversion that essentially retains the status quo of white men being important in their own right and women being important in their proximity to men."

But mostly, I get so tired of people refusing to admit how divisive TLJ was when it plainly was. J.J. Abrams wasn't brought back for Ep 9 and the media isn't speculating about how Ep 9's success could kill or preserve the franchise because TLJ was such a runaway success.

Finally, not that anyone here was saying it but because it is so frustrating every time I read it, TLJ didn't democratize the Force. The Force was NEVER shown to belong to just the Skywalkers. Not even in the old trilogy where we also met Obi-Wan Kenobi and Emperor Palpatine. But definitely not in the prequels and definitely not in Clone Wars or Rebels. It's the silliest argument. All TLJ showed is what two seconds worth of thought made plainly obvious: Force users are continuing to be born and there's currently no mechanism for identifying or training them.

[Danny Franks]

I've said this before, and I'm not sure why I'm saying it again (because I've been in enough rounds of this debate to know that no one is changing their minds):

Rey's journey in The Last Jedi was realising that she could be the hero that she thinks the Resistance/Rebellion needs. She goes to Luke, looking for someone to give her answers and train her in the ways of the Jedi. But she's also on a mission from Leia, to get Luke to come back and inspire everyone. She wants him to tell her what she needs to do, and how to do it, but he won't.

Then, when Luke continues to reject her, Kylo Ren starts connecting with her, and painting himself as the wronged, sensitive soul who just wants to be understood. And she starts to think that,  maybe he could he give her the answers that she wants, that he could be redeemed, and that he could be the hero that she's looking for. She even says this to Luke, before leaving. 

Not once, through all this, does it occur to her that she's capable of being this figurehead. Until the final act, when she realises Kylo Ren can't be redeemed, and that the only person who's going to go and save her friends is her. Then we get the Big Damn Hero shot, when Rey moves all those rocks to free the surviving rebels, and in that moment, she becomes the figurehead of this fledgling Rebellion. 

[VCRTracking]

On 12/23/2018 at 4:17 PM, Zuleikha said:

Finally, not that anyone here was saying it but because it is so frustrating every time I read it, TLJ didn't democratize the Force. The Force was NEVER shown to belong to just the Skywalkers. Not even in the old trilogy where we also met Obi-Wan Kenobi and Emperor Palpatine. But definitely not in the prequels and definitely not in Clone Wars or Rebels. It's the silliest argument. All TLJ showed is what two seconds worth of thought made plainly obvious: Force users are continuing to be born and there's currently no mechanism for identifying or training them.

This I agree with. The people saying TLJ democratized the Force misunderstood the concept of midichlorians in the prequels. I read a positive review bemoaning their introduction into the mythos and saying it made the Jedi like "pureblood" in the Harry Potter universe when it's more what magical blood is. People who are capable of magic are children of wizards but more often they are born to non-magic parents(Muggleborn). Force-sensitivity in a person is as random as it is hereditary. What TLJ actually did was show that the fate of the galaxy wasn't going to be determined will no longer be determined by a member of the Skywalker bloodline. Whether Abrams follows through with this in Episode IX we'll have to see.

On 12/23/2018 at 4:17 PM, Zuleikha said:

But mostly, I get so tired of people refusing to admit how divisive TLJ was when it plainly was. J.J. Abrams wasn't brought back for Ep 9 and the media isn't speculating about how Ep 9's success could kill or preserve the franchise because TLJ was such a runaway success.

You'd have to be living under a rock this past year to not be aware how divisive it is. If you ask any person who's pro-TLJ  the movie if they thought the movie was 'divisive' they'd say yes. What they will not say and what those who hate it really want to hear is that since the movie is so divisive it is therefore a failure and that Lucasfilm needs to course-correct from it. Speaking for myself, it isn't and they don't.

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I've said this before, and I'm not sure why I'm saying it again (because I've been in enough rounds of this debate to know that no one is changing their minds):

Rey's journey in The Last Jedi was realising that she could be the hero that she thinks the Resistance/Rebellion needs. She goes to Luke, looking for someone to give her answers and train her in the ways of the Jedi. But she's also on a mission from Leia, to get Luke to come back and inspire everyone. She wants him to tell her what she needs to do, and how to do it, but he won't.

Then, when Luke continues to reject her, Kylo Ren starts connecting with her, and painting himself as the wronged, sensitive soul who just wants to be understood. And she starts to think that,  maybe he could he give her the answers that she wants, that he could be redeemed, and that he could be the hero that she's looking for. She even says this to Luke, before leaving. 

Not once, through all this, does it occur to her that she's capable of being this figurehead. Until the final act, when she realises Kylo Ren can't be redeemed, and that the only person who's going to go and save her friends is her. Then we get the Big Damn Hero shot, when Rey moves all those rocks to free the surviving rebels, and in that moment, she becomes the figurehead of this fledgling Rebellion. 

THIS.

Edited December 25, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Chyromaniac]

19 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

J.J. Abrams wasn't brought back for Ep 9 and the media isn't speculating about how Ep 9's success could kill or preserve the franchise because TLJ was such a runaway success.

JJ coming back has nothing to do with TLJ.  He was brought back to write and direct IX in late summer 2017, essentially to replace Colin Trevorrow.  There was certainly speculation at the time that Rian might take over - but nothing official came of it, and JJ was given the film about a week later.  I honestly don't know how seriously Rian was ever involved in IX - he was supposedly doing a story treatment at one point, but he was calling that old news as early as that spring.

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

You'd have to be living under a rock this past year to not be aware how divisive it is. If you ask any person who's pro-TLJ  the movie if they thought the movie was 'divisive' they'd say yes. What they will not say and what those who hate it really want to hear is that since the movie is so divisive it is therefore a failure and that Lucasfilm needs to course-correct from it. Speaking for myself, it isn't and they don't.

Agreed.  Also, just because something is divisive doesn't mean that it can't also be successful - only that different sides have strong (often vocal) opinions.

[benteen]

I don't think Rey tried to save Kylo because she was in love with him.  I think it was just based on her own experiences that she tried.

I will still stand by an earlier comment that Rian Johnson managed to make Rey, Finn and Poe all considerably less interesting in The Last Jedi.

Quote

Their decision not to show Rey exploring her powers was a major mistake IMO.  It turned her into a Mary Sue.  Two seconds after learning she has Jedi powers she is having to school Luke on how it all works and what their responsibilities are.  It  destroys the character of Luke, which effectively ruins the original trilogy (for me at least).

Making her instantly powerful without any training was another JJ Abrams cheat code.  He doesn't take the time to develop so he automatically moves a character or a plot to where he wants them to be instantly.  It's not just with people...think Star Trek where he has the Enterprise get to Vulcan in the space of ten minutes.  Literally.

[andromeda331]

I finally got around to watch TLJ I kept putting it off some from the reviews back and forth but mostly due to having about twenty years of Star Wars books in my head that's been hard for me to let go and remember the new versions and lack of seeing Han-Luke-Leia together. I was very surprised by how much liked TLJ. The beginning and ending parts were my favorite. The beginning battle and Poe's calling and pretending he couldn't hear Hux and Hux falling for it. I loved the ending with Luke showing up and facing off against Ben and the Reveal. I liked Rose and Paige, I didn't really like Rose at the end in love with Finn. It felt way too fast for someone who was a fan at the beginning only to learn he was about to desert. It would make more sense if they ended up friends or even just the start of feelings at the end. I liked Rey. Didn't like Ren until he kills Snoke which was a surprised and I liked the two fighting together against the guards who put up a really good fight. I even kind of like that he didn't reject the Dark Side because it kind of makes sense if he did it wouldn't be that fast and made me think of the Rule of Two. I didn't realize Snoke was behind the force welding or whatever that was with Rey and Ren I did assume it was Ren so I didn't believe anything he said. It'll be more interesting on the rewatch those scenes. I liked Luke's and Rey's scenes, Luke and Yoda but my favorite moment was definitely seeing Luke and Leia together. I still wish we had gotten to see the three together or movies before this so we could have seen the trio together Luke and Leia as brother and sister, Han and Leia married. I'm not sure what I think of Hondo or not at least reassuring that there was a plan. I'm fine with her not telling Poe I'm not sure why not at least assure that there is a plan. Was it because she didn't trust him or did she worry about their being a mole or were we suppose to wonder if she was one? It was great though seeing the ship slam into the Supremecy.  

Edited January 9, 2019 by andromeda331

[slf]

I had zero problem with Rey having to talk Luke around. Luke was more than just some Jedi prodigy hero, he was an uncle and a brother and he felt like he failed in both roles. His sister's only son, while under his care, was lured to the Dark Side. That nephew went on to kill his own father, Luke's friend and his sister's husband. Not to mention all of his other students were murdered (except for the ones who went with Kylo Ren). There are a lot of different ways they could have gone with that and the way they chose isn't the one I would have picked but it still seems reasonable to me and doesn't make Rey a Mary Sue in the slightest, imo.

[Zuleikha]

You'd have to be living under a rock this past year to not be aware how divisive it is. If you ask any person who's pro-TLJ  the movie if they thought the movie was 'divisive' they'd say yes.

 

I have literally been in multiple online conversations of these types where technically yes, the pro-TLJ person acknowledges the movie was divisive, but they then go on to dismiss negative opinions as being the work of MRA, alt-Right types.

What I almost never see is the basic acknowledgement of the many of us who didn't like the movie because of problems with its narrative choices rather than perceived politics. This is especially frustrating for people like me who think it was actually a huge step back from TFA in terms of representational issues. I LOVED TFA. It's the movie that turned me into a true fan of the Star Wars universe. But I am capable of acknowledging why people who didn't like it, didn't like it, and I am also capable of acknowledging that there is a lot of validity to the critiques. That's all I want in discussions of TLJ. That simple acknowledgement that there are a lot of understandable critiques of Johnson's choices.

[Joe]

3 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

 

I have literally been in multiple online conversations of these types where technically yes, the pro-TLJ person acknowledges the movie was divisive, but they then go on to dismiss negative opinions as being the work of MRA, alt-Right types.

What I almost never see is the basic acknowledgement of the many of us who didn't like the movie because of problems with its narrative choices rather than perceived politics. This is especially frustrating for people like me who think it was actually a huge step back from TFA in terms of representational issues. I LOVED TFA. It's the movie that turned me into a true fan of the Star Wars universe. But I am capable of acknowledging why people who didn't like it, didn't like it, and I am also capable of acknowledging that there is a lot of validity to the critiques. That's all I want in discussions of TLJ. That simple acknowledgement that there are a lot of understandable critiques of Johnson's choices.

But there are a lot of the alt-right who bash it. Many times in the discussion I've seen them type SJW, which completely invalidates any point they may have come close to having.

And I do acknowledge you had issues with the story. But people on your side of the discussion ignore people on my side when we point out how it isn't a flaw, how it works to tell a cohesive and interesting story. Not only that, people on your side wait a few weeks before dragging up the same 'issues' again, and ignore the same answers. There's no back and forth, it's always attack.