Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[Slovenly Muse]

6 hours ago, piequinn35 said:

I am confused. So did Leai not know that Poe commanded the bombers to destroy the Dreadnought after he destroyed the short ranged weapons? When the plan didn’t work she recalled everyone. If she was against the plan of the bombers she wouldn’t let the bombers leave their ship and just let Poe stall the FO for their evacuation and then leave.

This is what I was wondering in the theatre as well, because the details were really fuzzy (much like how the FO was magically able to impossibly track them through hyperspace). Perhaps someone who saw the film more than once can weigh in, but I recall that Poe took out the surface weapons, then reported to Leia that he'd done it, and she congratulated him and told him to come back (her attitude was, "Good, we did it," rather than "Nevermind, this is too dangerous."). He said that while they were there he wanted to destroy the Dreadnought, and she seemed surprised, like this was not their original plan, and told him not to do it. Then he hung up on her and called in the bombers. I did not understand why the bombers were there in the first place or why EVERYONE was disobeying Leia, but I assumed that Poe was charge of the operation, so everyone followed his orders and didn't know that Leia had ordered them not to proceed. But because we didn't get much information on the original plan, or what everyone else (the bombers, etc) thought they were there to do, I admit I am filling in some gaps myself. If someone has a clearer timeline for what happened, or got some details on second viewing that I missed, please jump in!

[Sandman]

On 1/6/2018 at 0:19 AM, VCRTracking said:

Another detail in Brackett's script Luke had a long lost twin sister but it definitely wasn't Leia.

I don't know if it was in Leigh Brackett's script, but I read years ago that in an early treatment of the story, the Luke Skywalker/lead character was a young woman. (And I will never believe that "Darth" was originally intended to be a Sith title or designation -- Obi-Wan Kenobi addresses him as "Darth" in a way that clearly implies it's a first name. [/random grumbling])

Edited January 9, 2018 by Sandman

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Perhaps someone who saw the film more than once can weigh in, but I recall that Poe took out the surface weapons, then reported to Leia that he'd done it, and she congratulated him and told him to come back (her attitude was, "Good, we did it," rather than "Nevermind, this is too dangerous.").

My take on Leia plan was that it was mostly a bluff to push the First Order into a defensive posture during the evacuation.  Figure they're using the same kind of unarmed/unshielded tranports they use later.  Such ships would be very vulnerable to attacks from TIE fighters - unless the fighters are busy.  Leia goal was to delay the First Order long enough to complete the evacuation of her people.  So she sent him out their to fuck with Hux and then launch an attack on the Dreadnaught's defensive weaponry while bringing in bombers.  At that point TIE fighters move to defend the Dreadnaught instead of attacking the defenseless Resistance transports.  Once the last trasnport is with the Resistance fleet, it's over as far as Leia is concerned.  Poe and the bombers return to the fleet with no or low casualties and the Resistance flees to find another base elsewhere.

Except that Poe saw a chance to turn Leia's bluff into something real.  With the surface defenses disabled, he directed the bombers to go ahead and attack to destroy the Dreadnaught,  Of course, that delays the Resistance fleet's departure, probably long enough for the First Order to get a tracking lock on the big cruiser's engines.  So, yeah, Poe's plan took out the Dreadnaught, but it's also the main reason the Resistance has no capital ships and is down to maybe 30 people.  If he'd stuck with Leia's plan the Resistance would've gotten away clear with all their ships and people.

[piequinn35]

It could be a bluff but those bombers were slow moving ships, could they have successfully returned to Raddus without getting destroyed by the TIE fighters? it was do or die for Poe.

If there was another Dreadnought that showed up on Krait, then the Resistance asses would be toast :D

[afterbite]

It feels like SW often pulls its inspiration for space (and land) battles from WWII aerial battles/dogfights, but this most recent discussion has made me wonder why the bombers are slow. If you're thinking they're the space equivalent of Flying Fortress, which I'll use as a perhaps relevant touchpoint, then you'd think their issues would be what? Weight. Fuel consumption. (And relevant to the previous two, engine construction.) Perhaps something in the aerodynamics. I'm by no means an expert in either aircraft or spacecraft, but it seems like aerodynamics shouldn't be much of an issue in space. Would weight, fuel consumption, or engine construction be an issue? It doesn't seem like they would. If you can push a Dreadnought or Star Destroyer through space at high velocity, why can't you do the same for a bomber? Besides, after they've dropped their payload, weight (and thus their ability to generate momentum) would be less of an issue. Why would they be so slow?

For that matter, even though I thought the opening sequence with Rose's sister was an absolute highlight of the movie, why are they still carpet bombing? These people use lasers to shoot at one another and have hyperspace travel. They don't have guided missiles by now? I can't think any time when you'd need a carpet bombing capability in space, really. Even if they doubled as in-atmosphere bombers, wouldn't there still be relatively limited utility for that kind of ordinance?

[Perfect Xero]

Apparently the technology in the Star Wars universe has gone substantially backwards since Luke blew up the Death Star with a photon torpedo.

[johntfs]

On 1/9/2018 at 4:08 PM, afterbite said:

Even if they doubled as in-atmosphere bombers, wouldn't there still be relatively limited utility for that kind of ordinance?

Sure, except maybe the Resistance is on a budget and those were the best they could afford after buying a bunch of X-wings.  Also, guided munitions could be vulnerable to electronic warfare in ways that "dumb" munitions aren't.

23 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Apparently the technology in the Star Wars universe has gone substantially backwards since Luke blew up the Death Star with a photon torpedo.

Not that much.  Especially since Luke used a proton torpedo instead of borrowing a photon torpedo from Star Trek.

Edited January 10, 2018 by johntfs

[Wynterwolf]

... and basically all they needed was a match to set off the chain reaction that Galen Erso designed to destroyed the Death Star, right?  Luke just had to send the torpedo down the right spot.    

[Slovenly Muse]

6 hours ago, afterbite said:

For that matter, even though I thought the opening sequence with Rose's sister was an absolute highlight of the movie, why are they still carpet bombing? These people use lasers to shoot at one another and have hyperspace travel. They don't have guided missiles by now? I can't think any time when you'd need a carpet bombing capability in space, really. Even if they doubled as in-atmosphere bombers, wouldn't there still be relatively limited utility for that kind of ordinance?

You're so right! My partner and I saw this movie together, and when we came out, we basically both launched into simultaneous rants (interspersed with "I really loved it, but" about every other sentence). My rant was about Poe, but his was about the nonsensical physics. He was INCENSED that in space, the bombers were portrayed as having to fly directly above their target to drop the payload. There's no gravity! The bombs wouldn't "fall" downward toward the Dreadnought, because there is no such thing as "down" in space! They would have to be propelled by another force towards their target, and the pilots should have theoretically been able to do something like turn the bombers sideways, so the opening points toward the target, then accelerate towards the target from a safe distance, free the bombs, and stop, causing the bombs to continue travelling in perpetuity through frictionless space in the direction the bomber was moving, or until encountering their target. There was really no need for the ships to get directly above the Dreadnought, that was just weird! (Also, he was very put out that the space lasers appeared to arc, which is, I am thoroughly assured, not how light travels in a gravity-free environment).

Though perhaps it speaks to the dire straits of the Resistance that the only weapons available to them are the ones LEAST useful for combat in space!

[Perfect Xero]

3 hours ago, johntfs said:

Not that much.  Especially since Luke used a proton torpedo instead of borrowing a photon torpedo from Star Trek.

Sometimes it's hadron to remember the difference between the two.

[johntfs]

38 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Sometimes it's hadron to remember the difference between the two.

One has a warhead made of light particles (photons), the other has one made from sub-atomic positively charged particles (protons).  Neither makes much sense as a munition.  Probably best to go with nukes or anti-matter.

[Wynterwolf]

LOLOL, there's a whole conversation on twitter right now with some of the Star Wars book writers about the 'space science'.  It's hilarious:  Sword lasers that just... end, sound in space, TIE 'bombers' in ESB, etc.  LOL, I love this fandom.  And hey, this is a galaxy far, far away... who knows what tech, periodic table elements, or gravitational anomalies may exist out there.  :-D

[Joe]

As much as I like science in my SF, with Star Wars I don't care. Physics bends towards rule of cool. Just entertain me.

[afterbite]

47 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

LOLOL, there's a whole conversation on twitter right now with some of the Star Wars book writers about the 'space science'.  It's hilarious:  Sword lasers that just... end, sound in space, TIE 'bombers' in ESB, etc.  LOL, I love this fandom.  And hey, this is a galaxy far, far away... who knows what tech, periodic table elements, or gravitational anomalies may exist out there.  :-D

I wonder how much of my lack of general headscratching on some things comes from having seen the OT as a child versus watching the current movies as an adult. Having totally bought into the undeniable coolness of lightsabers as a kid, I'm willing to assimilate them into the column of 'things I won't think about too much' as an adult. As an adult, encountering new things in the universe for the first time, my (admitted limited) critical thinking skills are more apt to be triggered.

This was even somewhat true with the repurposing of old 'too cool to think about too closely things' when they were used in a new way. For example, Darth Maul's conjoined lightsabers - it was clear that he should have shredded the heck out of his robes with those things, if not lightsabered himself down the back with them, just from the way his fight with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan was portrayed in TPM. Kylo Ren's lightsaber with its guard - how has he not sliced off at least one finger? I know it has little metal pieces on the guard before the laser part starts, but he throws hissy fits wherein he murders spaceship equipment. You're telling me his grip has never slipped?

I guess it has a little to do with exposure to the real world analog, too. Why would your footsteps turn red when you walk on a salt planet? I don't know, but I've never been to a salt planet, so who knows what's going on with that and it sure did look cool. I am a long-time viewer of (the old school) History Channel, though, so you bet I've seen tons of black and white footage of bombers.

Just one more dark mark in the column under 'things adulthood has messed up', I guess.

[piequinn35]

I found this about the unfortunate but successful bombers~

[ChelseaNH]

Why aren't they drawn magnetically to the ship that launched them?

[Wynterwolf]

15 minutes ago, ChelseaNH said:

Why aren't they drawn magnetically to the ship that launched them?

Maybe the targeting magnet is only in the nose that's pointed towards the target?

Edited January 10, 2018 by Wynterwolf

[piequinn35]

They said that the bombs were propelled out towards the target and even if zero gravity, the momentum and electromagnetism helped the bombs, I don't know.

[afterbite]

In re: our bombers, this article taught me a nifty new word, "skeumorphism". (For those not inclined to follow the link, it's "the design concept of making items represented resemble their real-world counterparts.") I'm not sure I'm understanding it correctly in reference to the bombers (and, in fact, the person who mentions it in the article talks primarily about the bombs versus the battering ram cannon), but it feels like they said, "Bombers... hmm. Hey, what do bombers look like?"

"They look like that, and that looks cool, and also people are pretty familiar with bombers like this so we should have our bombs behave like this." So, they did, even if, like one poster mentioned above, they could have turned on their side and propelled the bombs forward toward the ship without having to be directly over the ship. IDK if that's skeumorphism, but it does seem like a mixture of familiarity making it easy for us to understand what's happening onscreen plus looking pretty excellent visually.

I think the fact that these things are driving me crazy about this movie is that I want/expect more out of it. I'm willing to write off all manner of silliness in movies that I enjoy but am not invested in. But, something about this particular film skewed too heavily on the "looks super cool" side in a way that detracted from the "makes sense" side, and so I'm hung up on the various places where logic and consistency were sacrificed in favor of looks coolness as places where this balance could have been restored with a bit more investment in the "makes sense" portion which I value more (in this case).

Edited January 10, 2018 by afterbite
messed that one thing up

[Wynterwolf]

4 minutes ago, afterbite said:

I think the fact that these things are driving me crazy about this movie is that I want/expect more out of it. I'm willing to write off all manner of silliness in movies that I enjoy but am not invested in. But, something about this particular film skewed too heavily on the "looks super cool" side in a way that detracted from the "makes sense" side, and so I'm hung up on the various places where logic and consistency were sacrificed in favor of looks coolness as places where this balance could have been restored with a bit more investment in the "makes sense" portion which I value more (in this case).

I can definitely understand that.  I love having to work a little to connect dots, but ideally the dots shouldn't be TOO far apart, or the structure gets too wonky to sustain the narrative.  

There are certainly a few points in TLJ that I feel that way about, and as much as I appreciate what this installment adds in the larger Star Wars universe, it keeps this particular movie in the middle of the pack on my personal rating list (in fact right around ESB, which for a variety of reasons, was also not a favorite of mine. :-D).  This particular issue doesn't bother me too much, because I like the idea of the Resistance having to use antiquated resources or resources not exactly designed for the purpose they're using them for, and having the targeting magnetics possibly being in the nose of the bomb, and for possibly needing to aim for the largest surface area to hit the target being the reason they maneuvered 'above' the target ships, and for them usually being well away from their targets for being why the bomber ships weren't better shielded, especially underneath.  

[Bill1978]

On ‎8‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 1:20 PM, ChelseaNH said:

My understanding is that Episode 9 was supposed to be a big movie for Leia, which implies an overall outline.  One that has to be scrapped and replaced, as it turns out.  Pretty sure people in Hollywood are used to long-term plans changing, for a variety of reasons.

Based upon whose movie each of the first 2 movies in this trilogy was about according to the creators - TFA = Han, TLJ = Luke - and what happened to them, I've always interpreted Episode IX will be Leia's movie to mean by the end of it, she too would have died. Unfortunately real life has meant that they have to move that moment to the beginning of Episode IX and likely off screen. If I was Chewie, R2 or 3PO I would be very worried about what's gonna happen in Episode IX. By the end of TLJ, I got the feeling that this trilogy only exists to kill off all the old characters so the studio doesn't have to deal with them in future movies.

[Silver Raven]

Somebody noticed that if Luke was really dead, his artificial arm would have dropped to the ground when he disappeared.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Silver Raven

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, afterbite said:

Why would your footsteps turn red when you walk on a salt planet?

For pretty much the same reason they'd turn red on a snow planet.  The soil beneath the light crusting of salt is red.  As people move through and disturb the salt, they expose the red soil underneath.

[afterbite]

15 hours ago, johntfs said:

For pretty much the same reason they'd turn red on a snow planet.  The soil beneath the light crusting of salt is red.  As people move through and disturb the salt, they expose the red soil underneath.

You know, I wasn't really expecting an answer, but that makes total sense. We rarely get snow where I live (despite a good 5 inches or so last month that lasted at least a couple of days), so I wouldn't have thought to think of it that way.

[VCRTracking]

Interesting TLJ discussion with the Lucasfilm Story Group:

[Perfect Xero]

After watching Kevin Smith's review where (though he keeps making it clear that he loves the movie) he repeatedly says that he was surprised by Luke's inaction. Finding out about Han's death. R2 Playing Leia's message. Nothing can move Luke to get off his ass and try to help.

It made me realize that my biggest problem with this movie is Luke. Luke's student turned evil and started trying to rebuild the Empire. Luke responded by going into hiding and leaving a couple of powerful evil force users, one of whom he helped create, unchecked.

He also abandoned his sister and his best friend to deal with the fallout of their son going evil without him.

Luke Skywalker is now nothing more than a selfish prick and literal entire worlds of people died because he decided to throw a pity party instead of doing something to help. The guy whose primary driving force in the OT is helping people and protecting his friends is reduced to that to make the plot of this movie work.

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

It made me realize that my biggest problem with this movie is Luke. Luke's student turned evil and started trying to rebuild the Empire. Luke responded by going into hiding and leaving a couple of powerful evil force users, one of whom he helped create, unchecked.

He also abandoned his sister and his best friend to deal with the fallout of their son going evil without him.

Luke Skywalker is now nothing more than a selfish prick and literal entire worlds of people died because he decided to throw a pity party instead of doing something to help. The guy whose primary driving force in the OT is helping people and protecting his friends is reduced to that to make the plot of this movie work.

Sounds a lot like what Yoda and Obi-Wan did, after the prequel trilogy. It seems to be a Jedi trait to run off and hide instead of facing insurmountable odds.

While it doesn't paint Luke in a great light, I think it's healthy for people to see their heroes have feet of clay. Whether it's people watching the movie, or characters in the movie. To me, a big part of Rian Johnson's message was that heroes aren't always what they're cracked up to be, and that followed on naturally from what JJ Abrams did with Luke in the first movie.

Could they have better addressed Luke's reasons for running away? Absolutely. Was he scared? Worried that trying to stop Kylo Ren would cause more damage? Did he originally intend only to disappear while he regrouped? We don't know. And probably never will. But I've decided it doesn't bother me, because I like the idea of needing to find new heroes more than seeing the old ones kept on their pedestals.

[Zuleikha]

I think the message of finding new heroes can be done without tearing down the old ones. I think Han's arc in TFA did that. We see Han's flaws very clearly, but we also see his virtues. His story is sad and not what anyone wanted for him, but it still honored the character we all loved. I don't actually have a problem with the basic outline of Luke's story, but I agree with Perfect Zero that Rian Johnson didn't give enough insight into the whys of Luke's choices. We basically know that Obi-Wan and Yoda hid because they wanted to be in place to train Luke because they thought only Luke would be able to stop Darth Vader/the Emperor (although the why of their thoughts about this is not at all clear!). We only get a tantalizing glimpse of what's going on in Luke's head with his statement that the Jedi should end. I really wish Johnson had used Rey's training to expand on Luke's thoughts about the Force/the Jedi more because what we got did portray a strange, unflattering image of who Luke became.

Also, Luke being the main savior of the day character IMHO undercuts the message of needing new heroes, if that was indeed Johnson's message.

[Perfect Xero]

34 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Sounds a lot like what Yoda and Obi-Wan did, after the prequel trilogy. It seems to be a Jedi trait to run off and hide instead of facing insurmountable odds.

But Luke wasn't up against insurmountable odds at all.

Yoda and Obi Wan were in a very different situation. Palpatine had taken control of the entire Republic and framed the Jedi Order as traitors. Being Jedi their being in/around any cell of rebels would have put them at risk, look at how Vader senses Obi Wan on the Death Star in ANH, then finds the rebels on Hoth in Empire because Luke is with them, then again in Jedi Luke realizes that his presence is putting the entire Endor mission at risk because Vader can sense him.

Luke, by contrast, went into exile while the Republic was still there and running things and TFA makes it clear that Snoke is very worried about Luke returning. Luke could have very much done something to help and probably saved the literal billions of lives that were lost in TFA if he'd stayed to help bring down Ben and Snoke.

Quote

While it doesn't paint Luke in a great light, I think it's healthy for people to see their heroes have feet of clay. Whether it's people watching the movie, or characters in the movie. To me, a big part of Rian Johnson's message was that heroes aren't always what they're cracked up to be, and that followed on naturally from what JJ Abrams did with Luke in the first movie.

Could they have better addressed Luke's reasons for running away? Absolutely. Was he scared? Worried that trying to stop Kylo Ren would cause more damage? Did he originally intend only to disappear while he regrouped? We don't know. And probably never will. But I've decided it doesn't bother me, because I like the idea of needing to find new heroes more than seeing the old ones kept on their pedestals.

All we knew about Luke in TFA was that he was missing, we didn't really know why. Did he go seeking some new knowledge and got stuck, did he have some surviving students who he was trying to protect from Snoke's influence, did Luke think that Ben could still be saved and went into hiding because he knew that Snoke wouldn't hesitate to kill Ben if he stood against him?

There were lots of ways to write Luke's exile that don't completely invalidate and torpedo his entire character arc from The OT.

Why should I care about finding new heroes when this movie just hit me over the head with the message that Rey should be expected to run away and sulk the first time she runs into adversity?

[ainon]

On 13/01/2018 at 9:41 AM, Danny Franks said:

While it doesn't paint Luke in a great light, I think it's healthy for people to see their heroes have feet of clay. Whether it's people watching the movie, or characters in the movie. To me, a big part of Rian Johnson's message was that heroes aren't always what they're cracked up to be, and that followed on naturally from what JJ Abrams did with Luke in the first movie.

JJ Abrams left it very open-ended for the next person to take Luke on to any direction in the next story. A cynical person was certainly welcome to assume Luke was a coward hiding on island ignoring his very own twin sister's angsts and evading responsibilities because Reasons. A hopeful person might imagine Luke was planning something on a larger scale and he wasn't so much hiding as biding his time because Reasons.  But characterisation-wise, the latter was presumably more logical than the former because at no point ever did we see a Luke who was a coward in the Original Trilogy. He never abandoned his friends (before he even knew one of them was related by blood). He never gave up on expecting the best out of others (even when that other person was a personal mortal enemy and mass murdering Sith Lord). He even came up with long-term plans that worked (to rescue Han on Tatooine) or didn't really (turned out giving himself up to Darth Vader didn't quite distract the Emporer from the rebels on Endor). The idea that people will change as they grow older is not surprising, if that's what Rian Johnson's view is about growing old. The problem is when the change in someone like Luke is that drastic and is not supported by anything at the core of his personality or even in the plot. 

 

To me it absolutely does not help that Logan came out a few months earlier and covered the same ground that I presume Johnson was going for because Logan showed how it could be done so easily. ****Mild spoilers for Logan: We see old Logan hiding away, living in isolation, a shambling shadow of the hero we once knew, but we then learn in quick succession that Logan's circumstance isn't merely him locking the world out and giving up - the isolation is out of necessity and is in fact a selfless act on his part that stems very much from what we've always known about his character. When it's time for Logan to step up and save the day again he's reluctant, but what we learned earlier allows us to understand he's not an uncaring jerk - there are actual challenges standing in the way to him becoming an effective aid to the ones begging for his help./end spoilers****** 

 

 

With Luke in Last Jedi ... he's waiting to die and not going to do anything at all to help even when his very own sister's representative is begging him to because of Reasons that clearly aren't about his health - he's as strong as an ox, looks like!; or any Force-related matters - he's turned off his access to the Force?!; nor any apparent personal conflicts - his own brother-in-law's death at the hands of his nephew wasn't going to snap him out of his daily routine. Then at movie's end Luke suddenly does step up as the full-on ultimate pedestal-deserving legacy-guaranteed Hero for Reasons (because Artoo guilt tripped him?) and exhibits such enormous power it's hard to ignore that he could've chosen to unleash even a smidgeon of that power at any point much, much sooner to save lives.

Anyway based on the publicity info now out about the making-of Last Jedi, my 'what could have been' on things is that when Mark Hamill expressed concern about Luke's new Last Jedi characterisation, Johnson should have paused, considered the input, then taken it upon himself to rise up to the challenge to write a stronger story. At the very least consider that maybe, just maybe it wasn't just Hamill being selfish and possessive about Luke Skywalker, but actual input from an actor who's played so many villains of every shade of grey and darkness and dubiousness over the past couple of decades that surely that guy would also know what a hero is expected to look like? 

[MisterGlass]

I was at the book store and spotted a Canto Bight tie in book on a shelf.  And apparently there is a Phasma tie in book.  And one about Rose and Paige.  It is hard for me to be uncynical about random detours in scripts when they are so blatantly designed to sell tie ins.  I'll say it again Disney - I should not have to do homework to understand and enjoy a movie.

On 1/10/2018 at 5:32 PM, johntfs said:

For pretty much the same reason they'd turn red on a snow planet.  The soil beneath the light crusting of salt is red.  As people move through and disturb the salt, they expose the red soil underneath.

I interpreted it a bit differently.  I thought the surface of the planet was largely composed of crystallized salt that was red because of some mineral inclusion.  The white outer coating is composed of salt particles that have been weathered off the crystallized salt, and as particles they refract the light differently than the crystal and appear white.

[Crs97]

Why was Luke able to touch Leia when he was just a projection?

[BetterButter]

MRAs Make 46-Minute Cut Of ‘The Last Jedi’ That Edits Out All The Women

[Wynterwolf]

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

I was at the book store and spotted a Canto Bight tie in book on a shelf.  And apparently there is a Phasma tie in book.  And one about Rose and Paige.  It is hard for me to be uncynical about random detours in scripts when they are so blatantly designed to sell tie ins.  I'll say it again Disney - I should not have to do homework to understand and enjoy a movie.

You don't have to do homework, but if the movie included everything from books or other tie-ins, it would be 53 and a half hours long.  I've only read the tie-in with Rose and Paige but I'll assume the Phasma and Canto Bight were similar to that one.  You don't really learn anything new or planet-shattering about Rose, Paige or the universe.  You get a bit more insight into the relationship between Rose and Paige and a bit more background, but that's it.  You can easily watch the movie without the tie-ins, no "homework" required.

5 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

I interpreted it a bit differently.  I thought the surface of the planet was largely composed of crystallized salt that was red because of some mineral inclusion.  The white outer coating is composed of salt particles that have been weathered off the crystallized salt, and as particles they refract the light differently than the crystal and appear white.

That's certainly a possibility.  All I can say is too me the red dirt looked like dirt, not salt.  I have to admit that now I kind of want a tie-in that flashes back 30+ years to the time the base on the planet was an active Rebel installation so we can get an explanation of just WTF is up with the salt and dirt.

[Spartan Girl]

7 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Why was Luke able to touch Leia when he was just a projection?

Force twin powers. I'm guessing Leia was able to tell Luke wasn't there, but could feel him all the same.

[Which Tyler]

10 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Why was Luke able to touch Leia when he was just a projection?

That's exactly why I rejecting my nephew's theory that Luke was a hologram.

 

Mrs Tyler suggested that he doesn't touch Leia, and that it was his clue to her that he's just a projection, and is giving them hope, buying some time, but not answering their prayers (oh, and don't worry if they hit me with a million Lazer blasts)

Edited January 16, 2018 by Which Tyler

[Joe]

1 hour ago, Which Tyler said:

That's exactly why knead rejecting my nephew's theory that Luke was a hologram.

 

Mrs Tyler suggested that he doesn't touch Leia, and that it was his clue to her that he's just a projection, and is giving them hope, buying some time, but not answering their prayers (oh, and don't worry if they hit me with a million Lazer blasts)

He kisses her on the forehead, and gives her the Falcon dice. As we saw earlier in the movie, projection can be physical. There's a moment when Rey and Ben touch, and he finds water on his hand.

[Danny Franks]

7 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Force twin powers. I'm guessing Leia was able to tell Luke wasn't there, but could feel him all the same.

They emphasised how much it was taking out of Luke, to Force project himself to that planet. I'm quite happy to believe he was making that extra effort on top, to be able to touch Leia. While I did not care for Leia flying through space, I was very happy to see the Force being shown as a mystical magic energy again, instead of the almost clinical, scientific take on it that the prequels gave us.

This is, after all, the same Force that let Luke fire two proton torpedoes into the Death Star's exhaust port, untrained and unguided. It should be capable of weird, unexplained things.

[ICantDoThatDave]

For me that's just a bridge too far.  Physically projecting oneself across the galaxy & Force ghosts interacting physically with the world is too much for my suspension of disbelief.  Everyone's going to have different breaking points of course, but to me it's kind of like in Superman II when Superman pulls the S off his chest & flings it at Non & it expands into a giant cellophane "S" & mildly slows Non down for a bit.  Some people might see that & just think "well, he's Superman, he can fly, shoot eye lasers, x-ray vision, etc., so why not an expanding cellophane "S" he's apparently had on his costume this whole time?", but that, like Luke's weird astral/physical projection powers in TLJ, is where I'm just like "Nope.  Too much.  I'm out."

[Morrigan2575]

18 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Mark Hamill and John Boyega joined in

I'm glad someone in the thread asked what an MRA was, I had no idea.

[Wynterwolf]

I love them all.  :-D

[MisterGlass]

17 hours ago, johntfs said:

You can easily watch the movie without the tie-ins, no "homework" required.

True, it's not required.  However, I think the filmmakers may feel at liberty to make odd detours or omit characterization with the knowledge that there is a pre-fab expanded universe waiting to pick up the slack.

[VCRTracking]

Bits of the deleted scene I mentioned pages ago at 3:55 of this video:

I've seen people hating Johnson on Tumblr because they wanted Luke and Rey to have a sweet father/daughter(or surrogate daughter) relationship like Last of Us or something but screw that, she already had that with Han. I like seeing angry, disillusioned Rey pissed off at Luke!

Edited January 25, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Miles]

Is it just me or was this mostly pointless? A movie long, slow, boring chase scene interrupted by pointless interludes. nBSG mined a similar setup for a lot more drama. The only part that really had a point was the Kylo- Luke- Ray stuff and that was maybe 30% of the movie.

Also tracking through lightspeed is a can of worms they can never close again. It will ruin a lot of films to come. Maybe they can retcon it somehow, but boy this is going to be hard.

It would have made more sense if the rebels had been tracked through a spy on their ship. That also would have explained why the admiral wouldn't tell anybody her plan. How it was in the movie it made no sense and was clearly only there to stir up drama. It would have been a simple modification to the script. Instead of breaking into Snoke's ship to disable the tracking, they would have had to break in to find out who the spy was, by hacking the ships computer. For that they needed a master Codebreaker/Hacker. Done.

Snoke amounting to nothing was also really lame. But I kinda liked that they subverted expectations by Rei's parents being nobodies. What I don't like is that she actually never had any training. That puts her very much into Mary Sue territory with all the abilities she displayed in the first movie.

I'm not impressed.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Miles

[Joe]

1 hour ago, Miles said:

Is it just me or was this mostly pointless? A movie long, slow, boring chase scene interrupted by pointless interludes. nBSG mined a similar setup for a lot more drama. The only part that really had a point was the Kylo- Luke- Ray stuff and that was maybe 30% of the movie.

Also tracking through lightspeed is a can of worms they can never close again. It will ruin a lot of films to come. Maybe they can retcon it somehow, but boy this is going to be hard.

It would have made more sense if the rebels had been tracked through a spy on their ship. That also would have explained why the admiral wouldn't tell anybody her plan. How it was in the movie it made no sense and was clearly only there to stir up drama. It would have been a simple modification to the script. Instead of breaking into Snoke's ship to disable the tracking, they would have had to break in to find out who the spy was, by hacking the ships computer. For that they needed a master Codebreaker/Hacker. Done.

Snoke amounting to nothing was also really lame. But I kinda liked that they subverted expectations by Rei's parents being nobodies. What I don't like is that she actually never had any training. That puts her very much into Mary Sue territory with all the abilities she displayed in the first movie.

I'm not impressed.

The reason Holdo didn't tell Poe the plan is because he's a disobedient idiot. When Leia told him to give it up, he persisted and got all the bombers destroyed. As soon as he finds out part of Holdo's plan, he blabs it to Finn and Rose, who have DJ listening in. So he got the transports blown up too. If episode IX opens with his court martial and execution for treason, it'll be deserved.

And as for Rey, she's clearly heard all the stories. Suddenly she finds out they're real. Then she tries things out, and finds that they work.

[Miles]

2 minutes ago, Joe said:

The reason Holdo didn't tell Poe the plan is because he's a disobedient idiot. When Leia told him to give it up, he persisted and got all the bombers destroyed. As soon as he finds out part of Holdo's plan, he blabs it to Finn and Rose, who have DJ listening in. So he got the transports blown up too. If episode IX opens with his court martial and execution for treason, it'll be deserved.

She didn't tell anybody on the crew and clearly there were a lot of people having problems with that, since Poe could organise a mutiny. That unwarrented secrecy can't be fanwanked away.

 

3 minutes ago, Joe said:

And as for Rey, she's clearly heard all the stories. Suddenly she finds out they're real. Then she tries things out, and finds that they work.

Without any training being able to pull off all the stuff she pulled in Force Awakens puts her squarely in Mary Sue territory. Untrained people should be able to pull off a little force-telekineses, but not much more.

[Joe]

51 minutes ago, Miles said:

She didn't tell anybody on the crew and clearly there were a lot of people having problems with that, since Poe could organise a mutiny. That unwarrented secrecy can't be fanwanked away.

 

Without any training being able to pull off all the stuff she pulled in Force Awakens puts her squarely in Mary Sue territory. Untrained people should be able to pull off a little force-telekineses, but not much more.

The Resistance is a military organisation. In real militaries, people are expected to follow orders without having everthing explained to them. Connix should be the next court martial after Poe, for leaking classified intel and participating in a mutiny.

I've said this before, but the Force seems to have a belief element. Rey lives a lifestyle that, if she didn't believe in herself, she'd lay down and die. She discovers the Force is real, and she has it. So she tries one move, looking into Ren's head. It works, so she tries another. She mind tricks the trooper. Then telekinesis at the end. As for fighting, we've already seen her beat up those thugs early on. Not a flashy fight like in the prequels. It's a clear progression.

[Perfect Xero]

53 minutes ago, Joe said:

The Resistance is a military organisation. In real militaries, people are expected to follow orders without having everthing explained to them. Connix should be the next court martial after Poe, for leaking classified intel and participating in a mutiny.

The Resistance is a paramilitary unit ... that was created because Leia disagreed with the Republic's policies of disarmament and nonaggression toward the First Order and refused to go along with what she saw as stupid and suicidal orders from the people in power.

Maybe if your group is literally founded on not following stupid/suicidal orders, you can't really be surprised when you allow those people to think that you're doing something stupid and suicidal and a bunch of them don't blindly follow your orders.

Also, "don't think, just follow orders" is kind of an odd message to have in a film where the antagonists are space Nazis.

[Joe]

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

The Resistance is a paramilitary unit ... that was created because Leia disagreed with the Republic's policies of disarmament and nonaggression toward the First Order and refused to go along with what she saw as stupid and suicidal orders from the people in power.

Maybe if your group is literally founded on not following stupid/suicidal orders, you can't really be surprised when you allow those people to think that you're doing something stupid and suicidal and a bunch of them don't blindly follow your orders.

Also, "don't think, just follow orders" is kind of an odd message to have in a film where the antagonists are space Nazis.

Yeah. Maybe I was too harsh on Poe. He was born after Endor, grew up in the afterglow of legends performing heroics and achieving the impossible. That's bound to have an effect on an impressionable young mind. And maybe a simple "I have a plan, just shut up and trust me" might have helped. Maybe there are multiple failures. But at the same time, look at the meeting where Holdo appears. Poe thought he was going to be called up. That's bound to sting, might play into his actions. "I'll show them that I'm the better choice to lead."

Leia points out how his actions set the Resistance back, but it seems like a lot of people didn't follow that. Would Holdo explicitly restating his failure have helped?