Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[Morrigan2575]

24 minutes ago, cynic said:

Apparently, Rian Johnson has basically said that he knows that some people think that Rey and Finn are a thing, but he doesn't see a romantic connection at all. I feel like that's why he had Rose kiss him, to derail the Finn/Rey shipping. And yes, I totally agree that it was obvious that Johnson was uninterested in Finn. I hope that he gets to be back in the forefront in IX.

That's the unfortunate thing about having different directions/writers for the movies, they have their own take on characters and relationships.

I don't care about Rey/Finn in a romantic sense, I don't really have any interest in any of the new characters becoming a romantic pairing. I don't care if they go Rose/Finn (although that really seemed to come out of nowhere), Rey/Finn, Rey/Poe, or hell Finn/Poe.

However, I wouldn't say Rey/Finn is detrailed or a lost cause. Abrams is back for episode IX and it seems from TLJ ending that there's going to be a decent time jump. They could easily move Rey/Finn back together, if that's what Abrams wants.

[kokapetl]

Has anyone mentioned that stupid dramatic “space ship landing” that was actually just robots ironing uniforms? That crap did not help the tone. 

[scottiB]

That reference was from Hardware Wars, and it was fantastic.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/16/rian-johnson-huge-dork-reference-star-wars-last-jedi-proves/

[SNeaker]

13 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

There have already been several response to Rian Johnson's tweet that I like, but I have a few more thoughts.  I agree, our heroes were never perfect.  They made mistakes and royally screwed up.  They got captured and maimed and tempted, but they struggled through, and that is what made them heroes.  I didn't worship them - they weren't idols.  They were an inspiration.  They represented endurance and hope.  That's what Star Wars represented.  The last two movies have taken it in a nihilistic direction, and I object to that so strongly. 

I feel like I want to print these words and frame these words

Edited December 19, 2017 by SNeaker

[VCRTracking]

11 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

I think it was because the plot obliterated most of the characterization (which as it happens was the exact opposite of the problems in TFA, which had great characters, but a recycled plot). For example, Rey's sudden investment in the possibility of Kylo's redemption. Even after hearing about what Luke (supposedly) did to Kylo, why the hell would Rey give a shit about it? She watched Kylo murder Han Solo and nearly kill her dearest friend. Someone as grounded and sensible as Rey in TFA would not suddenly be gung-ho about trying to save this guy from himself because of a dodgy sob-story. Granted, the film DID gesture towards the fact that she was frustrated with Luke's stubbornness and wanted to approach Kylo in an attempt to end the war, but this needed to be MUCH more pronounced if they wanted to convince me that she was prepared to go off by herself with a half-cocked plan to talk him back to the Light Side after getting a front-row seat to his own FATHER failing to do the exact same thing. Why not give her a vision of the Resistance fleet in terrible danger? That would have given her plan a more conniving/desperate edge that would have worked well with her character's brush with the Dark Side - that is, she doesn't really care about saving Kylo's soul, only her friends' lives - and she's prepared to manipulate him (as he did her) in order to do it. 

Instead it was totally what I feared most: she became the agent (albeit temporarily) of Kylo's redemption whose characterization was totally subsumed by HIS storyline - and even the fact that this was ultimately subverted doesn't erase the fact she has to act out-of-character in order for Rian Johnston to get to his "gotcha!" moment of Kylo killing Snoke not out of redemption, but to seize even more power. And as "gotcha" moments go, it didn't have anywhere NEAR the same amount of power or pathos as Han's death. 

Yes, the boat was righted with Rey's eventual rejection of Kylo (closing the Falcon's door in his face was a great moment), but there was a middle patch in which her actions didn't tally up with her established personality. 

 

I bought it because this was a girl who knew Han for like a day yet had the most emotional response onscreen than the people who actually knew him when he died. She lived her life alone and craved attachments. Look I don't think Rey is a "Mary Sue" but in TFA all her positive attributes outweighed her big flaw, her delusion that the parents who abandoned her were going to return. Yes she was a "grounded character" who was lying to herself for years. TLJ it became her belief that she was important in the grand scheme of things   Every character had to fail and and this was her failure. Her belief that she could turn Kylo to the light. She thought that could be her purpose. To do what Luke did with Vader.
 

Great interview from the LA Times:

Q&A Rian Johnson on the evolution of the Force in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' and more spoilers

 

I agree completely with his reasoning here:
 

Quote

 

Fans have been obsessed with Snoke’s origins since “The Force Awakens,” and while we get to know him much more in “The Last Jedi,” you don’t necessarily give that answer. Does it matter who he was?

Not in this story it doesn’t, which is not to say it wouldn’t be interesting — they might explore it in the next movie or elsewhere. I wrote this script before “The Force Awakens” came out, so when I wrote it, the “Who is Snoke?” mania hadn’t arisen with the fans yet. Even if it had, my perspective is it’s similar to how the Emperor was handled. The first three movies you know nothing about the Emperor because you don’t have to, because that’s not the story. You know exactly what you need to know. Whereas in the prequels, you know everything about him because that is the story.

In this movie, Rey doesn’t really care where he comes from, so if in any of their scenes he had stopped and done a 30-second monologue about how he is [Darth] Plagueis or whoever, Rey would have blinked and looked confused and the scene would have gone on … and we would have ended up cutting it in the editing room because it doesn’t matter to the story right now.

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Browncoat]

55 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Has anyone mentioned that stupid dramatic “space ship landing” that was actually just robots ironing uniforms? That crap did not help the tone. 

 

 

33 minutes ago, scottiB said:

That reference was from Hardware Wars, and it was fantastic.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/16/rian-johnson-huge-dork-reference-star-wars-last-jedi-proves/

It also reminded me of Raiders of the Lost Ark, when the evil guy took out what at first looked like some horrible torture device, but it turned out to be a coat hanger.  Loved the bait and switch in both movies.

[SimoneS]

3 hours ago, cynic said:

Apparently, Rian Johnson has basically said that he knows that some people think that Rey and Finn are a thing, but he doesn't see a romantic connection at all. I feel like that's why he had Rose kiss him, to derail the Finn/Rey shipping. And yes, I totally agree that it was obvious that Johnson was uninterested in Finn. I hope that he gets to be back in the forefront in IX.

That totally sucks, but isn't surprising. I am just glad that the final decision about Finn and Rey is not up to him. I have a little hope with Abrams.

Edited December 19, 2017 by SimoneS

[VCRTracking]

17 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

3 hours ago, cynic said:

Apparently, Rian Johnson has basically said that he knows that some people think that Rey and Finn are a thing, but he doesn't see a romantic connection at all. I feel like that's why he had Rose kiss him, to derail the Finn/Rey shipping. And yes, I totally agree that it was obvious that Johnson was uninterested in Finn. I hope that he gets to be back in the forefront in IX.

That totally sucks, but isn't surprising. I am just glad that the final decision about Finn and Rey is not up to him.

Finn was definitely infatuated with Rey which is present in The Last Jedi but I don't know if she feels the same way. Maybe if they had kept the bickering originally written in TFA where it could have been the new "Han and Leia" but then Harrison Ford broke his leg on set and while he recovered Abrams changed it to a more friendlier and less filled with UST.

Edited December 19, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Wynterwolf]

4 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Finn was definitely infatuated on Rey which is present in The Last Jedi but I don't know if she feels the same way.

Yeah, the feeling I've gotten from Rey is that she's so starved for family, she isn't even thinking about romance.  She's only just started building a relationship base of found family and figuring out what that even means.  Another reason I'm still so very sad that Carrie won't be able to carry on the development in Leia and Rey's relationship in the next one, it would have been such a beautiful thing to watch.  

[benteen]

22 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Yeah, the feeling I've gotten from Rey is that she's so starved for family, she isn't even thinking about romance.  She's only just started building a relationship base of found family and figuring out what that even means.  Another reason I'm still so very sad that Carrie won't be able to carry on the development in Leia and Rey's relationship in the next one, it would have been such a beautiful thing to watch.  

My hope was that Rey and Leia would restore the Jedi Order at the end of Episode IX but that's not going to happen.

Edited December 19, 2017 by benteen

[Wynterwolf]

2 minutes ago, benteen said:

My hope was that Rey and Leia would restore the Jedi Order at the end of Episode IX but that's not going to happen.

Tbh, I don't think the Jedi Order should exist, particularly as it was, and I think it actually died an inevitable death.  I think beings who are force-sensitive should be taught what that means (and hopefully the texts that Rey has will help with that), but I don't think a separate (exclusionary) 'order' is the best answer.  That's why I was actually pretty excited by the title of this movie... but we'll see what happens.  

[benteen]

1 minute ago, Wynterwolf said:

Tbh, I don't think the Jedi Order should exist, particularly as it was, and I think it actually died an inevitable death.  I think beings who are force-sensitive should be taught what that means (and hopefully the texts that Rey has will help with that), but I don't think a separate (exclusionary) 'order' is the best answer.  That's why I was actually pretty excited by the title of this movie... but we'll see what happens.  

I wouldn't object to a more loosely-organized Jedi Order.  That's kind of how I thought they were before the prequel trilogy.  Kind of like old marshals of the West but with perhaps much more freedom when it comes to helping and protecting people.

[VCRTracking]

7 minutes ago, benteen said:

11 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Tbh, I don't think the Jedi Order should exist, particularly as it was, and I think it actually died an inevitable death.  I think beings who are force-sensitive should be taught what that means (and hopefully the texts that Rey has will help with that), but I don't think a separate (exclusionary) 'order' is the best answer.  That's why I was actually pretty excited by the title of this movie... but we'll see what happens.  

I wouldn't object to a more loosely-organized Jedi Order.  That's kind of how I thought they were before the prequel trilogy.  Kind of like old marshals of the West but with perhaps much more freedom when it comes to helping and protecting people.

That's why Luke was doomed to failure. He was trying to recreate something that(as shown in the prequels) was too rigid and dogmatic and easily destroyed by the Sith.

[Wynterwolf]

4 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

That's why Luke was doomed to failure. He was trying to recreate something that(as shown in the prequels) was too rigid and dogmatic and easily destroyed by the Sith.

Yes!!  And it's why I wasn't sad about that, just about how it ended.  

[MaggieG]

17 hours ago, Captain Carrot said:

I saw the movie on Saturday, and had had avoided all the spoilers for the movie. Only to have some kid walking out of another showing talking about Luke dying. It was a true Simpson's moment.

This just brought back flashbacks to Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince when my stupid little cousin spoiled a certain someone's death for me! I was almost done with the book but my other cousin had just finished and she told her brother what happened. I come over for lunch and he spilled the beans. I was pissed.

16 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Fair enough. I liked Finn in TFA because of the genuinely seriousness of his plight and that he was very funny which is a new type I hadn't seen in a Star Wars movie. When I watched him I realized I like Shia LaBeouf-style comedy when it's NOT Shia LeBeouf! I also like that Hux is more comic. In TFA Donmhall Gleeson was directed to be so OTT that it bordered on ridiculous. It's better that the humor with him is intentional.

Is it wrong that I found him very attractive in this? 

[Silver Raven]

Kylo Ren and Hux need to kiss and just get over the sexual tension.  :)

[SNeaker]

39 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Yes!!  And it's why I wasn't sad about that, just about how it ended.  

Except we don't actually know that he did any of that. All we know is that he took a bunch of kids to train them. There are no details on what that training was, whether Luke even knew anything about the rules of the original Jedi and if he decided to implement them, or -- given what happened to his father because of them -- chuck them.

This is one of the most frustrating elements of the sequels to me. We are given precious little details about the intervening years and how things went to hell. Johnson's comparison of Snoke to the Emperor highlights that -- it was one thing to start in the middle of the story the first time and establish "ok, there's an evil Empire led by an Emperor and there is a Rebel Alliance dedicated to restoring a Republic." Awesome. The backstory isn't necessary yet. But once we are IN the story, time jumping by 30 years and saying "it all went to shit, you don't have to know why or how" doesn't work. I actually to need to know how and why to understand how we got here and to care.

Edited December 19, 2017 by SNeaker

[ulkis]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

That's why Luke was doomed to failure. He was trying to recreate something that(as shown in the prequels) was too rigid and dogmatic and easily destroyed by the Sith.

We don't know what he was doing though. I doubt he was telling his students not to have attachments. (I would see that as out of character, but obviously the writers might not agree.)

Edited December 19, 2017 by ulkis

[afterbite]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I agree completely with his reasoning here:
 

Quote

 

Fans have been obsessed with Snoke’s origins since “The Force Awakens,” and while we get to know him much more in “The Last Jedi,” you don’t necessarily give that answer. Does it matter who he was?

Not in this story it doesn’t, which is not to say it wouldn’t be interesting — they might explore it in the next movie or elsewhere. I wrote this script before “The Force Awakens” came out, so when I wrote it, the “Who is Snoke?” mania hadn’t arisen with the fans yet. Even if it had, my perspective is it’s similar to how the Emperor was handled. The first three movies you know nothing about the Emperor because you don’t have to, because that’s not the story. You know exactly what you need to know. Whereas in the prequels, you know everything about him because that is the story.

In this movie, Rey doesn’t really care where he comes from, so if in any of their scenes he had stopped and done a 30-second monologue about how he is [Darth] Plagueis or whoever, Rey would have blinked and looked confused and the scene would have gone on … and we would have ended up cutting it in the editing room because it doesn’t matter to the story right now.

Here's my problem with this - the original movies existed in a vacuum. This movie does not. Even if you exclude all other SW media that isn't the pre-existing 6 movies, you still have the OT, which built up that there were big bads, which were our primary antagonists, and had them be legitimate threats/people to be feared. Vader force choked someone at a staff meeting. Vader and Palpatine engaged in light-saber battles. They were physical presences doing things that highlighted why they in particular should be feared.

No matter how you feel about the prequels, you still had 3 movies dedicated to fleshing them out as characters, providing their motivations, and showing how they got into the position where they could be big bads.

You could argue that having built their backstory, there's no need to build a backstory for the new big bad. But, the film makers chose to replicate the overall elements of the OT. They could have moved on to a new big bad, but the Empire turned into the First Order, Palpatine turned into Snoke, and Kylo Ren turned into Vader. (Perhaps not in the details, but in the overall... yeah.) Thus, they entered a narrative that told us that our villains are dangerous and important people and then did a shoddy job of explaining why that's still the case. It's been a while since I've seen TFA, but Snoke is a menacing hologram who has clearly intimidated Hux and romanced Ren in it as far as I remember. He has some level of influence, clearly, but he's not integrated into the larger picture of the Empire in the way the Emperor was. I don't even know if your regular First Order minion has even heard of him, much less lives in fear of him. If this was a mob movie, I would know why the new boss was scary. Maybe he killed the old boss or is the old boss' son and has been raised bathed in violence. If mob boss 1 is dethroned and mob boss 2 shows up and no one tells me why he's badass enough to deserve the position, then I'm not necessarily just going to believe he's badass enough to deserve the position. If Snoke is a weak boss, then Hux and Ren are weak for following him. If they're weak, then why do we need 3 movies about heroes trying to overcome them.

Instead, they decided to only flesh out one villain. In the first movie, Kylo Ren wants to live up to grandpa's legacy. In the second, he wakes up with Luke standing over him with a lightsaber (which honestly could have been a training exercise for all he knew - they were training to use the Force, which would possibly involve defending against sneak attacks) and then burns everything to the ground. (Including buildings made of stone, but whatever. Seeing things aflame on film is generally visually arresting. And yes, I know he was burning the things inside the stone buildings, but honestly, I doubt there were enough non-stone things about to create that level of blaze.)

Snoke? He just likes to menace. He's full of himself and gets himself killed because of his hubris, but for someone who's supposed to be a puppet master, his motivations are ridiculously unclear. It's immensely unsatisfying and at odds with the way the franchise had developed itself up until then and I guess I'm just not down with this explanation at all.

Edited December 19, 2017 by afterbite
that bit that hopefully helps that other bit make sense

[benteen]

26 minutes ago, Silver Raven said:

Kylo Ren and Hux need to kiss and just get over the sexual tension.  :)

Heheh.  I said after TFA that I think Hux wants Kylo to "show him the dark side."  The pissy relationship between those two was fun to watch.

[VCRTracking]

8 minutes ago, ulkis said:

47 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

That's why Luke was doomed to failure. He was trying to recreate something that(as shown in the prequels) was too rigid and dogmatic and easily destroyed by the Sith.

We don't know what he was doing though. I doubt he was telling his students not to have attachments, but who knows.

Maybe not attachments but things that let them see the world in a binary "light side" "good side" way. It was Luke's way of thinking. He pulled his father back to the light. There were no shades of grey. The fact that Luke was willing to pull a Darth Sidious move(kill someone in their sleep) shows that it doesn't take much to push a Jedi towards being a Sith. The "no attachments" rule was a safeguard in keeping the Jedi into the light, but it kept them removed from the people they were trying to help.

Edited December 19, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Wynterwolf]

1 hour ago, SNeaker said:

Except we don't actually know that he did any of that. All we know is that he took a bunch of kids to train them.

And that's what I think was the crux of the problem... segregation as opposed to integration, even if it wasn't total.  But I can imagine that because it's how he learned, and what he knew of the old ways, that's how he was teaching them, by immersion.  But we may well find out more about what he did in the third movie, since Ben took some of them with him rather than killing them all.  

eta:  Or, you know... what VCRTracking said.  

Edited December 19, 2017 by Wynterwolf

[Spartan Girl]

If I may, I don't agree with the complaints of Luke almost killing Ben being OOC. People pointed out that the old Luke wouldn't kill Darth Vader, his own father, because he sensed there was still good in him. True.

But let's not forget how close he came to doing it in ROJ. His moment of weakness came when Vader found out about Leia and taunted him about turning her to the dark side if he wouldn't. Luke went completely apeshit, cutting off his hand and was ready to go in for the kill until Palpatine's gloating snapped him out of it and he realized what he was doing.

It wasn't that much different from this situation. Luke might have been tempted, in the heat of fear of what he saw in Ben's thoughts (maybe the Force gave him the future like they did with Anakin's nightmares?), but let's not forget he didn't go through with it. It was because Ben was his nephew that he ultimately couldn't do it...and still couldn't do it long after he'd given up on any good being left in him.

In any case, like someone earlier pointed out, Luke wound up repeating Anakin's mistake: creating a future he tried to prevent.

[MrsR]

7 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Has anyone mentioned that stupid dramatic “space ship landing” that was actually just robots ironing uniforms? That crap did not help the tone. 

Heh, I recognized it was an iron and flashed on Hardware Wars and ended up giggling for nearly two minutes after that. I'm surprised and pleased that Johnson threw in something for the original generation of fans.

Edited December 20, 2017 by MrsR

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

If I may, I don't agree with the complaints of Luke almost killing Ben being OOC. People pointed out that the old Luke wouldn't kill Darth Vader, his own father, because he sensed there was still good in him. True.

But let's not forget how close he came to doing it in ROJ. His moment of weakness came when Vader found out about Leia and taunted him about turning her to the dark side if he wouldn't. Luke went completely apeshit, cutting off his hand and was ready to go in for the kill until Palpatine's gloating snapped him out of it and he realized what he was doing.

It wasn't that much different from this situation. Luke might have been tempted, in the heat of fear of what he saw in Ben's thoughts (maybe the Force gave him the future like they did with Anakin's nightmares?), but let's not forget he didn't go through with it. It was because Ben was his nephew that he ultimately couldn't do it...and still couldn't do it long after he'd given up on any good being left in him.

In any case, like someone earlier pointed out, Luke wound up repeating Anakin's mistake: creating a future he tried to prevent.

Total agreement. People point out that he never gave up seeing the good in Vader in ROTJ but forget he went absolutely apeshit when Vader even suggested turning Leia and Luke was ready to murder him. Luke going to the Dark Side would be out of character but him being tempted is. Murdering him in his sleep is unsportsmanlike but relatively quick and merciful. At least compared to a protracted lightsaber duel where he ends up limbs cut off and burned alive!

[ulkis]

4 hours ago, SNeaker said:

This is one of the most frustrating elements of the sequels to me. We are given precious little details about the intervening years and how things went to hell. Johnson's comparison of Snoke to the Emperor highlights that -- it was one thing to start in the middle of the story the first time and establish "ok, there's an evil Empire led by an Emperor and there is a Rebel Alliance dedicated to restoring a Republic." Awesome. The backstory isn't necessary yet. But once we are IN the story, time jumping by 30 years and saying "it all went to shit, you don't have to know why or how" doesn't work. I actually to need to know how and why to understand how we got here and to care.

Also, in regards to backstory, unlike with Vader (going just by the OT), who the audience doesn't know anything about,  the audience knows for sure that Kylo Ren had Leia, Han, and Luke as influences. So how did they go so horrifically wrong that he became a monster?  And if he was just born evil, that seems to be coming back round to a theme the critics are saying that this movie is trying to move away from, that DNA controls a person's destiny.

[Wynterwolf]

15 minutes ago, ulkis said:

And if he was just born evil, that seems to be coming back round to a theme the critics are saying that this movie is trying to move away from, that DNA controls a person's destiny.

I'm not sure I follow that?  Padme, Vader, Luke and Leia & Han are part of what makes up his lineage, but they all couldn't be more different.  So I'm not sure how his DNA could be controlling him?  I think this is harking back to the age old question of nature vs nurture, but I've always felt that people are a unique blend of both.  They may have traits or tenancies that are inherited, but it's also how they react to their experiences and the choices they make.

But this is another reason why I'm hoping Rey's parents were 'nobodies' that really did just sell her to Unkar (because I honestly don't thinking anyone who cared about her would have left her there, especially if they intended to come back for her eventually).  But I like the idea of not waiting for a Skywalker or a Kenobi to swoop in and save the day, you don't have to be from a famed bloodline (the way Luke was) to make heroic choices when it matters.  

Edited December 20, 2017 by Wynterwolf

[SimoneS]

5 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

Kylo Ren and Hux need to kiss and just get over the sexual tension.  :)

Now this is a same sex couple I can get behind.

[Lantern7]

On 12/18/2017 at 6:16 PM, cynic said:

Yeah, Finn was already treading perilously close to the black comic relief sidekick trope in TFA and this movie just doubled down on it.

Can't agree. Finn is flawed, but he is a decent character. He's behind Poe, but they're at the same basic level, one tier below Rey. I think Finn can be valuable when IX comes along. I mean, he's got his own archenemy, even if it is the one with little screened backstory in Captain Phasma. I will say that John Boyega is not as cool in the franchise as he was in Attack the Block. Brief synopsis: alien invade the part of London tourists don't visit, and they're repelled by Finn, half of Firestorm, and the new lady Doctor.

[ulkis]

39 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

I'm not sure I follow that?  Padme, Vader, Luke and Leia & Han are part of what makes up his lineage, but they all couldn't be more different.  So I'm not sure how his DNA could be controlling him?  I think this is harking back to the age old question of nature vs nurture, but I've always felt that people are a unique blend of both.  They may have traits or tenancies that are inherited, but it's also how they react to their experiences and the choices they make.

DNA, bloodline, nature, what have you. If Kylo Ren is evil just because, to me that's not much different than the idea of one of the characters having to be the hero just because they are a Skywalker.

 

43 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

But this is another reason why I'm hoping Rey's parents were 'nobodies' that really did just sell her to Unkar (because I honestly don't thinking anyone who cared about her would have left her there, especially if they intended to come back for her eventually).  But I like the idea of not waiting for a Skywalker or a Kenobi to swoop in and save the day, you don't have to be from a famed bloodline (the way Luke was) to make heroic choices when it matters.  

Didn't the very first movie demonstrate that with Han? I don't care that Rey wasn't a Skywalker (or a Kenobi, that would have been totally convoluted), I just don't think the concept is new in the Star Wars canon.

[blueray]

7 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Yeah, the feeling I've gotten from Rey is that she's so starved for family, she isn't even thinking about romance.  She's only just started building a relationship base of found family and figuring out what that even means.  Another reason I'm still so very sad that Carrie won't be able to carry on the development in Leia and Rey's relationship in the next one, it would have been such a beautiful thing to watch.  

Me too, especially the way that it ends with Laia seeming as a sign of hope. Also that it seemed she would have played a major part in the last one.

 

Anyhow, I generally like this movie. The biggest complaint I had is how they had so many side plots, it seems like most of the cast didn't' have many scenes together.  Hopefully this will happen in the last one. I am okay with Rey's parents being nobody important, as not all jedi are related to each other.  I was shocked by Luke's death and that he wasn't even on that planet. That seems like it took a lot of force to do, and led to him dying alone on that planet.  I guess though in a way he went out like Obi Won Kenobi. I'd imagine we'll see his ghost in the next one, especially since Carrie Fisher's gone :(.

Edited December 20, 2017 by blueray

[Wynterwolf]

31 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I just don't think the concept is new in the Star Wars canon.

I agree it's not new, but it wouldn't be new to make her a Skywalker either.  And Han, as much as many love him, was still a secondary character to Luke, much like Poe and Finn are to Rey.  If Rey is a 'nobody', it brings that idea forward to the primary hero. 

 

31 minutes ago, ulkis said:

If Kylo Ren is evil just because, to me that's not much different than the idea of one of the characters having to be the hero just because they are a Skywalker.

 I'm sorry, I'm still not sure I follow... are you looking for some trauma to explain it?  Because I think that sometimes, people just don't handle power well (there are many, many psychological studies on this).  He had tremendous power and I think it just went to his head and made him believe he was better than everyone else.  When you start to believe you're better, you lose the ability to feel empathy for others.  And that way lies the dark side.  

Edited December 20, 2017 by Wynterwolf

[ulkis]

1 hour ago, Wynterwolf said:

I'm sorry, I'm still not sure I follow... are you looking for some trauma to explain it?  Because I think that sometimes, people just don't handle power well (there are many, many psychological studies on this).  He had tremendous power and I think it just went to his head and made him believe he was better than everyone else.  When you start to believe you're better, you lose the ability to feel empathy for others.  And that way lies the dark side.  

No; that's not what I'm saying. I'll have to think it out some more.

[AshleyN]

On 12/19/2017 at 0:42 AM, VCRTracking said:

Fair enough. I liked Finn in TFA because of the genuinely seriousness of his plight and that he was very funny which is a new type I hadn't seen in a Star Wars movie. When I watched him I realized I like Shia LaBeouf-style comedy when it's NOT Shia LeBeouf! I also like that Hux is more comic. In TFA Donmhall Gleeson was directed to be so OTT that it bordered on ridiculous. It's better that the humor with him is intentional.

I agree with this. Gleeson and Hux were probably my least favourite part of The Force Awakens, and I much preferred him here. It's still a performance comprised of pure ham, but it's used more effectively here.

I'm also not so sure I agree with people calling him an incompetent villain. After all, he succeeded in destroying the power base of the Republic in the last film, and came pretty damn close to wiping out what was left of The Resistance in this one. And although the movie has a little fun at his expense at the beginning, it's pretty quick to reveal that he's managed to pull one over on The Resistance without them realizing it.

Plus, the whole bit after he finds Kylo unconscious was legit hilarious to me. What a delightful slimeball.

3 hours ago, ulkis said:

Didn't the very first movie demonstrate that with Han? I don't care that Rey wasn't a Skywalker (or a Kenobi, that would have been totally convoluted), I just don't think the concept is new in the Star Wars canon.

I wouldn't say the concept is new for Star Wars, but I do think it's been somewhat lost along the way in a series, and particularly a fandom, that's become increasingly obsessed with lineage and making sure everything and everyone are connected in some way. And even as someone who generally likes the soap opera aspect of the story -- the idea of Star Wars as a kind of grand family melodrama playing out on a galactic scale -- I'm not sure how much more there was to mine there without it becoming stale. Having Rey truly come from nothing and nowhere, aside from the obvious thematic implications, manages to freshen things up a bit and expand a universe that in a lot of ways had come to feel smaller rather than bigger over time.

On 12/19/2017 at 1:09 AM, MisterGlass said:

There have already been several response to Rian Johnson's tweet that I like, but I have a few more thoughts.  I agree, our heroes were never perfect.  They made mistakes and royally screwed up.  They got captured and maimed and tempted, but they struggled through, and that is what made them heroes.  I didn't worship them - they weren't idols.  They were an inspiration.  They represented endurance and hope.  That's what Star Wars represented.  The last two movies have taken it in a nihilistic direction, and I object to that so strongly.  Luke brought hope back at the end, and I'm so grateful.  It runs counter to what Johnson is tweeting - disappointment does not have to rule you forever if you have the faith to move past it.

16 hours ago, benteen said:

I agree...Star Wars isn't meant to be ruled with cynicism and darkness.  I don't need today's cynicism to be poured into Star Wars because it's the cool thing to do.

Hmm, this is clearly a case where mileage simply varies because I didn't find this to be cynical or nihilistic at all. On the contrary, despite how dark it got at times*, I found it to ultimately be an incredibly hopeful film.

*And tbh, a lot of this is simply a function of its place as the middle chapter of the story. This is the point at which our heroes have to be tested, have to fail, and have to be brought low, so we can see them learn and grow and fight their way back. And while I don't want to be dismissive of people who didn't like it and in at least some cases do have valid criticisms, I can't help but agree with some comments I've seen that if Empire Strikes Back had been released in the age of social media it would have faced a similarly intense backlash.

Edited December 20, 2017 by AshleyN

[ulkis]

On 12/20/2017 at 1:31 AM, AshleyN said:

*And tbh, a lot of this is simply a function of its place as the middle chapter of the story. This is the point at which our heroes have to be tested, have to fail, and have to be brought low, so we can see them learn and grow and fight their way back. And while I don't want to be dismissive of people who didn't like it and in at least some cases do have valid criticisms, I can't help but agree with some comments I've seen that if Empire Strikes Back had been released in the age of social media it would have faced a similarly intense backlash.

I have to say your post earlier did help me a bit with how I felt they screwed over the OT characters, so thanks for that.

Edited December 25, 2017 by ulkis

[Zuleikha]

But I like the idea of not waiting for a Skywalker or a Kenobi to swoop in and save the day, you don't have to be from a famed bloodline (the way Luke was) to make heroic choices when it matters. 

The Skywalkers weren't a famed bloodline. They were nobodies. The importance was the relationship between Luke and Darth Vader, not their bloodline. There have been plenty of other heroes in the canon materials. I genuinely don't know where this idea is that Star Wars somehow promoted that only certain bloodlines get to save the day.

If anything, what Star Wars has promoted is that you have to be able to use the Force to be the main hero. That is still true of Rey.

This is the point at which our heroes have to be tested, have to fail, and have to be brought low, so we can see them learn and grow and fight their way back.

But In Empire when the heroes were tested and failed, it was consistent with what had been established in A New Hope. Sure, Lucas may not have originally realized Darth Vader would be Luke's father in that first script, but part of why "I am your father" is so brilliant is because it works so well with everything that was established.

The Last Jedi doesn't. Rey had no attachment to Kylo Ren in TFA--as he points out, in their last encounter, she called him a monster. The actors are so good that they sold the chemistry between the characters, but Rey wanting to and believing she can turn Kylo Ren after everything in TFA is inconsistent. She'd already been in his mind and was contemptuous. She rejected his idea that she needed him. She'd watched him murder his own father while his father attempted redemption. Finn's plot has nothing to do with anything in TFA. It isolates him with a brand new character. Poe's plot has nothing to do with TFA and IMHO is not consistent with his characterization. 

Also, the Last Jedi doesn't even end with them brought low. Rey failed to redeem Kylo Ren, but she's never really brought low and she's very triumphant at the end. Poe is--inexplicably--given Leia's trust and allowed to lead the Resistance survivors (with no real acknowledgment of the fact that his failures are why so many are dead). Finn's failures didn't matter for either the movie or his characterization. But he got to defeat Phasma right at the end and gets reunited with Rey. The Resistance is laid low, but it still triumphs over Kylo/Hux and we're left with the implication that both Resistance and Force users will be reborn. We may not know how, but it's clear that it will. Empire Strikes Back ACTUALLY ended with the heroes brought low... Luke was devastated by the revelation that Darth Vader is his father and had lost his hand. Han Solo is turned to carbonite. Lando is stricken with guilt over betraying Han and not being able to protect his city from Darth Vader. 

I wrote this script before “The Force Awakens” came out

Not surprised to read that because I think it shows in a bad way.

[SNeaker]

6 hours ago, AshleyN said:

*And tbh, a lot of this is simply a function of its place as the middle chapter of the story. This is the point at which our heroes have to be tested, have to fail, and have to be brought low, so we can see them learn and grow and fight their way back. And while I don't want to be dismissive of people who didn't like it and in at least some cases do have valid criticisms, I can't help but agree with some comments I've seen that if Empire Strikes Back had been released in the age of social media it would have faced a similarly intense backlash.

It may be the middle chapter of Rey, Finn, and Poe's story, but it is the final chapter in Han, Luke, and Leia's story. A story we *thought* ended in victory and peace. Did we think that would mean everything would be easy and they would never suffer hardship from there on out? No, of course not. But the sequel series has pulled the rug out from them and told us that even when we thought our heroes accomplished something, they didn't. The BEST these new movies can say about the original characters is that they fucked up so badly the new characters had to fix their mistakes and only then were THEY able to achieve victory by learning from the originals' fuck ups. So yay, Han, Luke, and Leia existed to fail so others could accomplish something, but, you know, they were "inspirational" or something. Maybe. Until it's time for another sequel series and we find out Rey became a junkie hooked on spices, Poe got thrown out of the military for sexually harassing his superiors, and Finn and Rose had a kid with Force powers that went evil and is the new villain. And on and on we go.

Quote

I have said that I would have preferred the films to take place after the characters from the OT were already dead, but if they did that, who knows, maybe I'd be complaining why not use the original actors if they were available and willing?

My reaction to finding out they were making new Star Wars movies was "why" and when they were including the original characters it was "oh God why no bad." I don't see why they couldn't have told a story much further in the future but connected to this -- for instance, there could be descendants of Skywalkers and Solos, but not necessarily the lead characters. Or to the characters in the new story, the originals could be heroes and legends as they are to us, but it's time for a new legend. I don't think this sequel series has ever had the confidence to tell its own story and be its own thing, to its massive detriment.

Edited December 20, 2017 by SNeaker

[Cirien]

9 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

I agree it's not new, but it wouldn't be new to make her a Skywalker either.  And Han, as much as many love him, was still a secondary character to Luke, much like Poe and Finn are to Rey.  If Rey is a 'nobody', it brings that idea forward to the primary hero. 

 

 I'm sorry, I'm still not sure I follow... are you looking for some trauma to explain it?  Because I think that sometimes, people just don't handle power well (there are many, many psychological studies on this).  He had tremendous power and I think it just went to his head and made him believe he was better than everyone else.  When you start to believe you're better, you lose the ability to feel empathy for others.  And that way lies the dark side.  

It's not expanded on in the films- but I don't think you can blame Kylo here: In the novelization of The Force Awakens it very heavily implied that Snoke has been in Ben's since he was very little, maybe while he was in the womb. It's why Leia sent him to train with Luke to get him away from the influence. Now yes despite that he also had three good role models so you can't say he's had no choice. At some point he actively made the choice to ignore his father uncle and mother and listen to the Sith Lord and start training the Knights of Ren. But I don't think it's as simple as "he had all this power and didn't handle it well" 

[SNeaker]

Kylo's turn to the dark side, this massive influence that Snoke supposedly had over him (even before birth?) -- that is stuff that can't be left to the books but barely touched on in the movies and then hilariously dispensed of. Which isn't to say, as so many think I'm saying, that I wanted more Snoke. Snoke sucked. But you can't fix a problem by just slicing it in half and calling it a day. Snoke being a vague figure and not very cool or threatening was a problem, and while getting rid of him so handily was funny, it was also an acknowledgement of the same problem. Now we're left with "everything we're seeing is the result of a character who was never interesting and never mattered. Look, over there, something shiny!"

[Browncoat]

It was clear to me that Snoke was abusive and controlling, and Kylo was unhappy.  The victim (Kylo) was bound to turn against the abuser eventually.  With Rey's help, Kylo knew he was strong enough to break free.  And he had to choose between what is right and what is easy (tm Dumbledore) -- he chose easy, Rey chose right.  Kylo may still be unhappy, but he's a free agent now.

Also, I didn't particularly think the death of Snoke was funny -- it was more of a hell yeah moment to me.  Pretty awesome.  Snoke was so focussed on the Kylo/Rey drama in front of him, and so focussed on Kylo's conviction, that he didn't twig to what that conviction was.

[Cirien]

Just seen it.

We've all seen the quote from Rian Johnson where he said he wrote this script before The Force Awakens and ohhhhhh boy it shows in a big way: Let's start with one of the biggies. 

Rey's parentage: 

I like most people would have been okay with the reveal that Rey came from nowhere if there hadn't been so many hints that she was either a student at the new Jedi temple or was Luke's daughter. Like all Jedi were essentially "nobodies", ( with the exception of the Knights of The Old Republic era where they *did* have Jedi dynasties for lack of a better word.) The Skywalker linage is the exception not the rule. but........BUT: 

Really Star Wars? You go out of your way to cast someone who resembles Leia and Padme and Shmi have her cast with an English accent ( a very posh accent which Daisy Ridley IIRC was instructed to speak with*) and have her introduced on a desert planet? You have her dreaming of where to find Luke IIRC, and have her have a connection with the Skywalker lightsaber and give her a vision of the fight between Luke and Vader from a different angle, with Obi-Wan speaking to her? And most importantly you have both Kylo and Snoke reacting very strongly to the news that "a girl" had helped the droid. ( doesn't Kylo in the novelisation say "It *is* you" when he sees her?- )

(Also if Rey's Parents were meant to die on Jakku where they just flying off to another part of Jakku when Rey sees a ship take off in her vision then?) 

Like .you can retcon most of the hints to make this new backstory work but it's going to take a lot work to make it work satisfactorially, given where it *appeared* to many people the story was going. 

(YMMV on this of course)

Next Kylo: I really wish that they had introduced the point that according the novelizations Snoke has been reaching out to Ben since he was a boy. Seriously the novelization makes sound an awful lot like child grooming ( think what Palatine did Anakin x100 . Not that it would make it any better but it would make his motivations less whiney. I am wondering if the line from Luke to Leia about Kylo "Nobody's (nothing's?) ever really gone" was meant to set up Leia bringing Kylo back to the light since IX was supposed to be a huge Leia showcase but I guessing that's now off the table... unless they decide to have Rey try again and this time succeed somehow? 

 

I honestly have no idea where the story is going to go and wish I was excited about that. I just can't shake the feeling that JJ and Rian had two different ideas of where they wanted the story to go and it's just an almight mess

[Wynterwolf]

52 minutes ago, Cirien said:

It's not expanded on in the films- but I don't think you can blame Kylo here: In the novelization of The Force Awakens it very heavily implied that Snoke has been in Ben's since he was very little, maybe while he was in the womb. It's why Leia sent him to train with Luke to get him away from the influence. Now yes despite that he also had three good role models so you can't say he's had no choice. At some point he actively made the choice to ignore his father uncle and mother and listen to the Sith Lord and start training the Knights of Ren. But I don't think it's as simple as "he had all this power and didn't handle it well" 

Ah, that's good context.... thank you.  But both Rey and Finn also had extremely difficult backgrounds with extremely negative influences in their lives, and very little good, but they made different choices when it mattered.  

Edited December 20, 2017 by Wynterwolf

[absnow54]

Kylo's turn to the dark side, this massive influence that Snoke supposedly had over him (even before birth?) -- that is stuff that can't be left to the books but barely touched on in the movies and then hilariously dispensed of. Which isn't to say, as so many think I'm saying, that I wanted more Snoke. Snoke sucked. But you can't fix a problem by just slicing it in half and calling it a day. Snoke being a vague figure and not very cool or threatening was a problem, and while getting rid of him so handily was funny, it was also an acknowledgement of the same problem. Now we're left with "everything we're seeing is the result of a character who was never interesting and never mattered. Look, over there, something shiny!"

I never thought that I would beg for some clunky exposition. But a throwaway line or two so I can understand a character's motivations would do wonders. I didn't have time to read everyone's Wookepedia page in advance.

[Browncoat]

Sometimes you just have to let art flow over you. 

[Wynterwolf]

14 minutes ago, Browncoat said:

Sometimes you just have to let art flow over you. 

Heh, I actually really enjoy having to think about all the different ways Plot Point A could connect to Plot Point B when it's not explicitly stated.  And if a definite answer comes later, it's fun for me to see how that changes my assumptions, but if no answer comes, I'm free to keep my own interpretation providing it isn't contradicted by something else.  And if it is contradicted, it gives me something else to ponder.  

And tbh, the context of Snoke's influence really doesn't change much for me.  Kylo is essentially a garden variety, though EXTREMELY powerful bully.  How he got there is less important to the story, I think, than how he reacts to events and people now, the choices he makes now.  

Edited December 20, 2017 by Wynterwolf

[Browncoat]

25 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

And tbh, the context of Snoke's influence really doesn't change much for me.  Kylo is essentially a garden variety, though EXTREMELY powerful bully.  How he got there is less important to the story, I think, than how he reacts to events and people now, the choices he makes now.  

I totally agree.  I don't really care about Snoke's backstory, either.  It just doesn't matter.  To quote another 80s movie. 

[absnow54]

I couldn't care less about Snoke's back story either, but I do care about Han, Luke, and Leia, and therefore their demon spawn, so when vague statements are made like "Snoke got to him..." I kind of want to know how. I want to know what darkness surrounded Ben to the point that Luke considered taking him out in his sleep. I get that they did something very similar with Obi Wan and Vader in the original trilogy. Obi Wan makes vague statements about Vader being seduced, and I just rolled with it, and there was a ton of "from a certain point of view" hand waving, which was lazy story telling. But, I didn't know Obi Wan then, not the way I know our heroes now. There's still a movie left to tie up this story, but so far I've found it too plot driven, so I don't really get why a character is doing anything, except because the plot is telling them to.

[Wynterwolf]

3 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

There's still a movie left to tie up this story, but so far I've found it too plot driven, so I don't really get why a character is doing anything, except because the plot is telling them to.

Yeah, I can definitely see that. 

I think that's kind of how I felt about Empire back in the day (and why it's my least favorite of the three original movies).  Because I was so hooked into the development of the team during ANH, I lost my emotional connection when they split into different storylines.  And I think the fact that I did read Before the Awakening, it gave me a little bit of a deeper sense of Rey, Finn and Poe as individuals, so they're my emotional hook into this movie, as opposed to current Luke, Leia or Han.  

[benteen]

I enjoyed the Before the Awakening book as well.

[Cirien]

3 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Ah, that's good context.... thank you.  But both Rey and Finn also had extremely difficult backgrounds with extremely negative influences in their lives, and very little good, but they made different choices when it mattered.  

Oh absolutely. As I said he had his mother and father ( I mean Han may be a scoundrel but he's a good man) and he also had his damn uncle there who helped bring down the emperor and bring a sith back to the light? For him to start idolising his grandfather as a sith and wanting to be like him, says he was always inclined towards sociopathy ( which maybe but he clearly has some fondness for his parents and Rey) but also, it's more likely he wanted to be special like his grandfather ( which given what Rey's now backstory  apparently is - and I still think there's more to that story since no matter how hard I try I can't make it mesh with what we saw in TFA- gives them another connection) I do think it should have been ,made explicit though, if it doesn't justify his actions

 

ETA: Heck in the original EU books Obi-Wan's life was pretty shitty within the Jedi Order. I was surprised he didn't Qui-Gon to fuck off at least once 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Cirien