S18.E09: Decline And Fall

[WendyCR72]

The powerful family of a retail empire closes ranks when a bartender accuses one of their own of rape.

[ForeverAlone]

The alternate title for this episode, "If Donald and Bill Mated." I guess since the allusions were so heavy on Uncle Bill and not as many on Donald, NBC actually chose to air this one. And Bill Cosby has provided fodder for two different SVU episodes, and we know there is at least one more Donald Trump episode waiting to see the time of day

 If this was an old school SVU episode under Neal Baer, the final twist would have been the reveal that the grandfather was really the grandson's father and he was conceived after grandpa drugged and raped his son's wife. Honestly I thought this episode was heading there for a bit, but the writers pulled their punches at the last minute on THAT particular story point. 

But this is later era SVU, so it flowed a bit differently. I'll be honest and say that I think the writing was a bit clunky at times, particularly the whole fight to have billionaire rapist declared incompetent and the pitiful acting performance on the stand and Barba's cross examination over his testimony. It just felt like Barba would have had a stronger cross about the rape and the drugging and not as focused on the defendant claiming to think the time is 1975.  Plus some of the characterization was a bit off through parts of it, at least for me it was. Barba is often written a bit weirdly at times. I mean, don't get me wrong. I LOVE Barba sass, and I can never have too much of it. He was particularly enjoyable this episode when he was visiting civil court. But it really is unlike Barba to go strutting around saying a case against a billionaire is a slam dunk when it hasn't even gone to trial yet. Sure, Barba deploys his trademark smirk and confidence when he is about to annihilate a witness (one of my favorite takedowns is "Legitimate Rape"), but Barba is also too smart to underestimate any billionaire when it comes to trials and he understands NYC politics. Which, by the way, brings up another point. Wouldn't the actual DA be all over this case and monitoring it closely, even if from a distance? You KNOW that if an actual billionaire was being prosecuted for rape in NYC, the press and city hall would have been ALL over this. It doesn't have to be a major plot point, but it would have been better to actually address the political and media implications of this case. That is one of my quibbles about how Barba (and the "law" portion of this show in general) is written at times. Sometimes it feels like the writers are writing Barba to serve the story and not serve the character (of course you could say that about any of the SVU characters, but Barba is my favorite character so I am more attuned to his characterization), so it sometimes results in Barba acting inconsistently. The case was a bit weak initially, and it likely would not have resulted in a conviction if they hadn't been able to turn the grandson at the last minute, so Barba should have been more concerned about shoring up his case than bragging that it was going to be an easy conviction. I mean, the dad certainly didn't provide much in the way of solid testimony to convict his father, and you would think Barba wouldn't have put him on the stand unless he had something stronger. 

On a purely shallow level, Raul was looking especially delectable this episode, so it really enhanced my viewing pleasure. It was nice to see him again after a two episode disappearance. 

Edited January 19, 2017 by ForeverAlone

[Spartan Girl]

I suppose this is the closest we are ever going to get to the actual Trump episode.

[StaceyNotStacie]

This episode was meh for me. It wasn't bad, but I didn't care for it that much. It was nice to see Barba. I was expecting that the grandfather was actually the boy's father, so I was surprised they didn't go there. I'm glad the guy was held accountable; I expected him to be found not guilty. 

There was no squad room drama, which was surprising. 

[The Wild Sow]

1 hour ago, ForeverAlone said:

If this was an old school SVU episode under Neal Baer, the final twist would have been the reveal that the grandfather was really the grandson's father and he was conceived after grandpa drugged and raped his son's wife. Honestly I thought this episode was heading there for a bit, but the writers pulled their punches at the last minute on THAT particular story point. 

 

Yeah, I was surprised they didn't go there; I fully expected it.

And I kept wondering, OK, who is he?   Cosby...or Trump?

[Snookums]

Sigh, look, everyone; it's the non-darkest timeline episode. 

So yep, this was definitely Bill Cosby Meatloaf with Donald Trump Glaze (and just a pinch of Clinton parsley with the whole "Monica" name) and a very depressing outline on how two steps forward one step back we are in our society over rape.

The whole way the case was presented really highlights how simultaneously old fashioned/horrifying and "post-millenial" the grandfather's attitudes were. Because in truth, while the trappings were out of date--Quaaludes and such--the attitudes are repulsively not. You can hear the exact "arguments" that bloated old leech made in any site on the net. And the helplessness the family felt about it, how they all know what a grotesque beast he is but they feel completely unable to do anything about it because they are tied to him by blood and money, trapped and waiting for him to die while there's still some kind of life for themselves out there, and all the while knowing they could technically walk away anytime, but to what? With what? They've given up so much that to leave means admitting you let all those things, incidents, assaults, pass and did nothing. So you keep doing nothing.

The lack of Personal! Drama! on the part of everyone was refreshing, Barba was a breath of fresh air, and Carisi had some great one-liners: "You should be a detective when you grow up." "Yeah? Well, let me start practicing right now. This is a warrant for your DNA." Hee hee. I missed Ice T but the whole "study by playing the recording under your pillow" thing was another cute little throwback to the seventies.

[wknt3]

9 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

If this was an old school SVU episode under Neal Baer, the final twist would have been the reveal that the grandfather was really the grandson's father and he was conceived after grandpa drugged and raped his son's wife. Honestly I thought this episode was heading there for a bit, but the writers pulled their punches at the last minute on THAT particular story point. 

If this was an old school episode of any L&O franchise Jim True-Frost would have turned out to be the real perp...

[wknt3]

The Good:
A solid idea mostly well executed. Nothing new, but at this point the show works better when it doesn't try for novelty. Especially since one of the shows recurring themes that was repeated this week was that things haven't necessarily changed that much since the "bad old days"
Lots of Barba. And he seemed to be in charge of the legal decisions too instead of just doing what Liv said!
Nobody Taking!It!Personally! and no followup of last week's relationship shit show. No Noah or Benson's personal life in general actually.
No shocking twists just a straight up SVU case.
Carisi did a good job bringing the snark this week.
Good casting and acting from the guest stars as usual.

The Bad:
No Fin and the rest of the main cast besides Barba might as well have taken the week off given that they had nothing to work with besides a couple of decent one liners for Carisi. I mean if you're not going to give them any real work why not just go all the way and have Benson do everything herself?
The act break with the victim asking why they don't catch the man who did this to her panning to the closeup on Benson whispering "we will." Didn't anyone involved realized they had crossed the line into self parody? Like the last few episodes this one suffers badly from St. Benson's Syndrome, but this was a particularly clunky bit.
The script was much better than last week, but lots of things still felt a bit off, and not just in the sense of being distorted by Mariska's ego like that act break. Just like last week it felt like it hadn't been polished as much as usual especially the courtroom material. I wonder if there is something going on behind the scenes that delayed the scripting process? Or maybe this week it was extra legal review given that NBC's demonstrated cowardice and there was more than one deep pocket that might be offended.

Overall it was pretty good. Much better than the last few. It was a good idea that came close to meeting it's potential. With another draft and 25% less Benson it could have been the best episode of the season and came close to some of the great episodes that opened last season.

Edited January 20, 2017 by wknt3
cleaned up a couple things

[Sarah D. Bunting]

"the closeup on Benson whispering "we will.""

Oh, you know *I* was going to clock that. See below. I call it...Plaint-Liv.

My piece is going live at 9:30 and contains a link to Wolf's comments from TCAs yesterday. Short verzh: the Trumpisode's maybe going to air this spring? Wolf seems sick of being asked about it. It would be nice if the Vichy network would grow a pair and air it next week but I'm not holding my breath.

[HunterHunted]

Legally this was a mess.

Even if a civil court with jurisdiction over guardianship declared that the defendant was not capable of caring for himself, there was no finding that he had his impairment at the time of the rape. 

The characters kept making a point that civil court had a lower standard of proof than criminal court. This is generally true except as it relates to guardianship. To find that a person is incompetent to stand trial, you need to demonstrate that a person has a mental illness or intellectual defect that impairs the person's ability to assist in their defense. There is always medical or psychological testimony. However for a guardianship hearing you need to demonstrate that because of their mental illness or disability, the individual is incapable of caring for themselves (activities of daily living, food, shelter, taking medication, dealing with finances). There should have been evidence that left to his own devices the defendant would have gone full Howard Hughes. Just being vaguely confused about the date is insufficient. Once again, they didn't show any psychiatric or psychological testimony for the IST determination. An individual who is incompetent to stand trial retains all other rights, but a ward (a person under a guardianship) has almost no rights, depending on the state. For example, an IST individual can refuse medications, but a ward under a guardianship cannot.

Additionally, we saw no psychiatric or psychological testimony at any point during this episode. If you're going to make guardianship or competency an issue, you've got to have some medical testimony.

Barba had a decent case even without the testimony of the son and grandson. I'm a little surprised that the show had Liv discover that the grandpa raped his daughter-in-law after the son testified. It was obvious and would have more impact on the stand.

Edited January 19, 2017 by HunterHunted

[Primetimer]

The warden from The Shawshank Redemption grosses out a cavalcade of guest stars with his Gigante-meets-Hefner Quaalude 'partying' -- and this isn't even the infamous Trumpisode!

View the full article

[illdoc]

Did anyone else think that the scene with Barba & Liv alone in her(?) office was filmed at a much different time? Liv's hair (see pic above) looked good & Barba looked like he had just had a haircut (see other pic) throughout the episode except for that one scene, when Liv's hair wasn't pulled back (looked a little lighter too) and Barba's hair was bushier. 

[HunterHunted]

7 hours ago, Sarah D. Bunting said:

"the closeup on Benson whispering "we will.""

Oh, you know *I* was going to clock that. See below. I call it...Plaint-Liv.

My piece is going live at 9:30 and contains a link to Wolf's comments from TCAs yesterday. Short verzh: the Trumpisode's maybe going to air this spring? Wolf seems sick of being asked about it. It would be nice if the Vichy network would grow a pair and air it next week but I'm not holding my breath.

That had me laughing. It was a bit much even for this show. Typically when this show hits that level of melodrama, someone is over identifying with a victim. This episode didn't really have any of that so the whispered "we will" kind of came out of nowhere.

[Gigi43]

Barba! Yay. However these writers can't write decent courtroom stuff. 

 

I thought the guy was suppose to be mostly Cosby. Quaaludes are what he was of using a lot and I thought personally the way he walked in to court a few months ago screamed to be a "feel bad I'm old now" act and his defenders seem to be fond of it "it was he 70s those girls knew how to party" excuses. Unfortunately  there are a lot of other rich/powerful men that you can draw parallels too. Didn't Polanski or his defenders say the 13yr old knew what was going on back then?

 

That kid should have wised up to his grandfather when the drugs were planted in his room. What did he really think happened there the cops did it? I get he was over 18 and that's a terrible  thing to have to tell someone but the parents just let their son move in with the known rapist and didn't try to open his eyes somehow before it went this far? Seems like it was only a matter of time until the grandfather would have tried it on some girl the grandson brought home and the family was what,  hoping for the best?

Edited January 19, 2017 by Gigi43

[ForeverAlone]

Yeah, the fact that the kid's father just let his son believe his mother was a crazy party girl, because he was too cowardly to tell his son his grandfather is a rapist, made me give some side eye to the writing. Maybe the writers just wanted to show how weak of a man the father was, but it seemed like the writers wanted the audience to side with him in his contempt for the grandfather. Sure okay, but there should have been more judgment lobbed at the father for allowing the grandfather's rapey ways to continue. Again, unless we were supposed to condemn the father's silence and weakness, and I don't think the writing reflected that attitude.

[hatchetgirl]

Ok - you guys!!!  Now you have me flinging myself across my bed and writing in my diary - "oh my - Barba is so dreamy!  Tonight he said the funniest thng!"

[skittl3862]

10 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Legally this was a mess.

Even if a civil court with jurisdiction over guardianship declared that the defendant was not capable of caring for himself, there was no finding that he had his impairment at the time of the rape. 

The characters kept making a point that civil court had a lower standard of proof than criminal court. This is generally true except as it relates to guardianship. To find that a person is incompetent to stand trial, you need to demonstrate that a person has a mental illness or intellectual defect that impairs the person's ability to assist in their defense. There is always medical or psychological testimony. However for a guardianship hearing you need to demonstrate that because of their mental illness or disability, the individual is incapable of caring for themselves (activities of daily living, food, shelter, taking medication, dealing with finances). There should have been evidence that left to his own devices the defendant would have gone full Howard Hughes. Just being vaguely confused about the date is insufficient. Once again, they didn't show any psychiatric or psychological testimony for the IST determination. An individual who is incompetent to stand trial retains all other rights, but a ward (a person under a guardianship) has almost no rights, depending on the state. For example, an IST individual can refuse medications, but a ward under a guardianship cannot.

Additionally, we saw no psychiatric or psychological testimony at any point during this episode. If you're going to make guardianship or competency an issue, you've got to have some medical testimony.

I thought the same thing. If they're declaring he has dementia and is mentally incompetent- why did they do all that silly "What's a cell phone? What's a personal computer?" nonsense instead of requiring he be examined by a psychologist? Back in the day, they would have brought Huang. They can't bring in a day player to say "I'm a psychologist and I examined him and and found no evidence that he has dementia and doesn't know what year it is"? There are actual tests for people who have dementia. And if someone is being declared incompetent and going with a plea of not guilty due to mental defect, I can't believe there's literally no discussion of the psychological aspect of this condition.

Also, why did Barba withdraw his question that said "Did you know drugging women to rape them was illegal in 1975 too?" That was completely relevant and valid! Believing it's 1975 doesn't excuse rape. Dementia doesn't give someone a free pass for committing crimes and getting off scot-free. If anything, they'd institutionalized as a risk to themselves or others. In the real world, a billionaire white old man would get a slap on the wrist for this rape. That's a lot better than being forced into a secure hospital facility, and being medicated and spoon-fed for a condition he doesn't actually have. It's completely ludicrous that his lawyer went with this defense. I also don't understand why he went from furiously objecting in civil court to going along with it in criminal court. If he were in on the plan and ok with it, why didn't he play up the "I'm crazy and it's 1975" in civil court too?

I like that the grandson was ultimately innocent. And Sarah remembered that she had consented to sex with him, and felt bad for accusing him before she knew all the details. Her confusion obviously doesn't negate the fact that she was actually raped later that night. I thought it was going be another case where they were both drunk and neither remembered all the details, so legally neither can consent, but he's the rapist and she's the victim, because adult men are never rape victims in SVU world.

I'm surprised only Sarah, the girlfriend and the son's ex-wife were confirmed victims. No way would that guy have only 3 victims spanning 20+ years. I would have preferred some sort of conclusion scene where after his conviction, all sorts of women start to come forward, like what happened with Bill Cosby.

Edited January 20, 2017 by skittl3862

[HunterHunted]

18 hours ago, skittl3862 said:

I'm surprised only Sarah, the girlfriend and the son's ex-wife were confirmed victims. No way would that guy have only 3 victims spanning 20+ years. I would have preferred some sort of conclusion scene where after his conviction, all sorts of women start to come forward, like what happened with Bill Cosby.

Completely agree. I kept expecting the phone calls that closed the episode would be more women coming forward to report that he drugged and raped them too.

This was such an incompetently put together episode. It was just so lazy and incompetent. It's like everything was their first draft. Everything you mention about how half-assed Barba is in the episode makes me wonder if they were in the writers' room, someone pointed out the problems, but everyone was too busy putting in their lunch orders to listen.

Edited January 20, 2017 by HunterHunted

[skittl3862]

I just realized what the fake dementia reminded me of. On The Fall (spoiler for season 3):

Spoiler

 

Paul, the serial killer, is shot and goes into a coma, and when he wakes up he believes it's 2006. He thinks his 10 year old daughter is a baby and has no memories of any of the crimes he's being charged with. The police believe he's faking, but they have to compile a case without being able to interrogate him.

The cops look through his history and figure out that he actually committed his first murder before the time of his memory loss, so they are able to confront him with that and he realizes he's caught.

 

Part of me thought maybe Barba would catch him in some lie, and after the son's confession about his ex-wife, there would be evidence of a long-term pattern and more victims would come forward that he couldn't blame on dementia. But that's too deep for SVU writers. "We will!" 

[Gigi43]

As an active businessman would declaring Hendricks mentally impaired in the real world become a disaster for the company? If he wasn't all there couldn't recent business dealings possibly be called into question or people could try to come forward saying they were mislead etc. Or no?

[yourmomiseasy]

When I saw a rich old guy that likes to talk about banging chicks with possible mental incompetency being edged out by his daughter, I immediately thought of Sumner and Sheri Redstone.  

Edited January 20, 2017 by yourmomiseasy

[gryphon]

Angry Barba. Rowr!  

No Ice T. Boo! 

[CleoCaesar]

Quote

 

"the closeup on Benson whispering "we will.""

 

HA. That was remarkably cheesy.

The writing is so clunky sometimes I almost can't believe these are professional TV writers. I get that some things need to be explained to the audience, but making Olivia, a sergeant with decades of experience, ask 101-level questions to her colleagues is embarrassing.

On a related note, all the shoehorned-in "DID SHE SAY 'YES'?" dialogue is also excruciatingly clumsy and bad. I get that "affirmative consent" laws have been passed in recent years but it just sounds so ridiculous. Same goes for Olivia asking the victim if she had anything to drink "not that it matters". Uh, well, it kind of does matter and is incredibly relevant to, you know, ascertaining why she can't remember anything and exactly what happened that night.

[Alison]

As the subhead to the story mentioned, I got a whiff of Hugh Hefner in this episode, too; I believe it was him who said Quaaludes were "leg-openers." Gross. The fact that there are enough predatory septuagenarians for us to speculate who Pervy Gramps was modeled after is sad.

[MaggieG]

I thought the actress who played Sarah was awful. Other than that, I got nothing. It was nice to see Barba.

[Gigglepuff]

I am amazed that Liv didn't whisper, "I will." So kudos, writers! (I'm kidding, the whole close-up angsty, "we will" had me rolling my eyes so hard) At least by whispering, "we will," Liv seemed to kind of acknowledge that other people help her catch the bad guy, I guess? Oh, but then, she's back to interviewing the victim and doing the police work that she should trust the detectives with, cause, you know, without her, nothing would ever get done. 

Other than that, same old, same old. Clumsy, clunky writing. And yawn, another pretty white victim. Way to be, show. No Fin, double yawn. And so now Barba can deduce whether or not someone is senile by asking them about a telephone? Lazy, lazy writing, but what else is new? Like others have mentioned, we so needed Huang around for that.

This show can't even get a straight-forward story straight, so perhaps they should stop with all the convoluted/contrived ones they attempt. Maybe forget about the plot-twists and get nail down the basics first. Grandson is first suspect, then it turns out drugs are planted in his room and it's Grandpa who is the real, real culprit, and who happens to have raped grandson's mother too? I know they love to try and make things complicated to keep the audience guessing, but if they're going to do that week after week, then at least have competent writers that can pull that off properly. Overall, this episode was like a bad fanfic. A really bad one. 

Edited January 20, 2017 by Gigglepuff

[skittl3862]

10 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

On a related note, all the shoehorned-in "DID SHE SAY 'YES'?" dialogue is also excruciatingly clumsy and bad. I get that "affirmative consent" laws have been passed in recent years but it just sounds so ridiculous. Same goes for Olivia asking the victim if she had anything to drink "not that it matters". Uh, well, it kind of does matter and is incredibly relevant to, you know, ascertaining why she can't remember anything and exactly what happened that night.

Yeah, it was so oddly phrased. That's why I was expecting it to turn into a "She couldn't consent because she was impaired" storyline, because the SVU detectives practically demanded he produce a notarized affidavit of consent from Sarah.

Sarah said "I think I was drugged", so Benson asking if she had anything to drink isn't victim blaming, it's a legitimate inquiry to figure out how she was drugged. If she didn't drink anything, then they should look for injection points or some sort of inhaled substance. It was all so clunky and heavy-handed. Are these people writing a police procedural, or an HR instructional video on how cops should handle rape cases?

[Muffyn]

I miss Huang.

[DaynaPhile]

Best part of the entire episode was the chemistryfest in Liv's office with Barba. "Now I'm angry" "good" or something like that. Am I the only one that sees the tension and chemistry just oozing from when these two are on screen? Tucker is out, let's get Barba in please. Let's just have an entire episode of the two of them, fighting, agreeing, whatever. 

[bethster2000]

On 1/23/2017 at 1:22 PM, Muffyn said:

I miss Huang.

I miss Amaro.  Oh, my sweet sweet boo.  But you know what?  Huang and Amaro are too good for the drek that this show has become.

There should be a mandatory amount of Ice T in every episode, because he just kills it every single time.  Even with crappy material, he's terrific; especially when paired with Rollins.

[Xeliou66]

This episode was very mediocre, like a lot of others said. It felt like a mash up of a bunch of past SVU episodes. I missed Fin in this one. Also that scene where Benson whispers "we will" after the victim leaves her office was cringeworthy. Mariska always overacts these dramatic scenes where they try to make Benson look saint like, it is clear Mariska is in charge of the show and the writers are under her thumb, and she gets to have super dramatic Benson drama scenes that make viewers cringe and that are entremely forced but it gives Mariska more dramatic scenes for Emmy nominations and to show off her acting "talent".

Edited February 4, 2017 by Xeliou66

[themightykazoo]

Ditto on the feelings of this episode's mediocrity. This whole season seems to have fallen short of what has come before. There are just too many obvious political references and jabs. This show has always been liberal leaning and this was mostly shown in earlier seasons through comments that Munch would make off and on through out the episodes and this was always acceptable because it was grounded. Since Mariska has become producer so much has changed and this is reflected in the episode quality. My girlfriend honestly thought I was watching off a Law and Order: Olivia Benson spinoff when she walked into the room mid episode. My girlfriend is not a regular viewer but has watched the first 10 seasons in their entirety so for her to have this confusion is unacceptable and rest solely on the writers and producers.

Maybe there should be a Law and Order spin off focusing just on her if this is appealing to some of the fan base however I would like SVU focusing on the crimes and victims like the show did so well for so many years. This episode added nothing to my viewing pleasure and my interest in SVU. It actually detracted from my interest in this show which takes a lot.

Give us SVU back.

Edited February 5, 2017 by themightykazoo

[Xeliou66]

Yeah, the show has gotten very preachy ever since Mariska was made executive producer, and all of the storylines are centered around Bensom and we get a ton of forced scenes with Benson and her baby, Benson and her latest boyfriend, Benson snapping at her squad and Mariska overacting some forced dramatic Benson scenes. It's tiresome. 

[themightykazoo]

Yeah Benson has become Captain Kirk. She is always sleeping with younger men (except Turk) Always shown as very beautiful and something of a sex object despite this show being about sexual crimes. This has bothered me and seemed very inappropriate considering the shows subject matter.  Like Captain Kirk she is always capable of kicking ass and the show solely revolves around her.  You know my feelings on how the show has become from our talks on the "other site.'

[CelticBlackCat]

This epi was so distracting for me I couldn't settle into it.  I kept watching out for the Trump references, thinking this was the Unstoppable Trumpesque much ballyhooed episode with a new title.  I didn't really think the story was put together that well; like X'66 said, a mashup.  Barba's impromptu psych eval on the stand was terrible courtroom "drama" and the We Will comment and the But Did She Say Yes comment were ridiculous.  I did not find the guest actors to be compelling.

On a shallow side note, I wish Mariska would lighten up on the heavy black eyeliner.

[WineCheeseChocolat]

Quote

Yeah Benson has become Captain Kirk. She is always sleeping with younger men (except Turk)

What younger men did she hook up with? Cassidy, Haden seemed similar age (Cassidy may have seemed younger but that was because he acted younger, I thought it always played that they were around the same age). That only inappropriate in age thing I saw was her "seduction" of crazy Stuckey back in the Stabler days. That was a ridiculous setup but it was a ridiculous episode in general.

Sorry, it bothers me when women are called out for dating guys who are maaaaaybe 3-5 years younger while men can date 15-20 years younger with no one calling them out. I thought it was SO CREEPY that Murphy and Rollins hooked up and I gave him serious side-eye for sleeping with a former employee that he presented himself as a fatherly figure towards. But some people actually shipped them.

Adding - the "hey beautiful, how YOU doing?" stuff from pervs directed at both female detectives bothers me too, since the show is supposed to be showing that rape is about power and not sex. Overall though, I think SVU has done a good job of having victims be varying levels of attractiveness and I'm not thrilled with the recent writing where people are constantly talking about the victim's beauty. But I don't think Bendon has ever dated anyone real inappropriate for her. Not even Tucker, although I find the character boring and their relationship not fleshed out.

(Actually, just looked them up. MH and Dean Winters were both born in 1964, HCJ in 1967, which is a pretty minimal age difference. Kelli Giddish was born in 1980, which surprised me because I thought she was older, and Donal Logue in 1966, also thought he was older.)

Edited February 5, 2017 by WineCheeseChocolat

[themightykazoo]

4 hours ago, WineCheeseChocolat said:

Sorry, it bothers me when women are called out for dating guys who are maaaaaybe 3-5 years younger while men can date 15-20 years younger with no one calling them out. I thought it was SO CREEPY that Murphy and Rollins hooked up and I gave him serious side-eye for sleeping with a former employee that he presented himself as a fatherly figure towards. But some people actually shipped them

I have no problem with women dating younger men. This was not my thought nor intent when I posted and I apologize for the confusion.  I only date older (7-15 years) women so I would never have a date if I felt this way. I strongly encourage women to date whoever they want kudos if they are younger since this widens my available playing field :) Dating younger people though is seen as a sign of one's beauty though since that would mean you are still as attractive as people who haven't gone through aging or life events one experiences as one gets older and that was my point.

Sometimes peoples sleep with former bosses so I did not have much problem with Murphy Rollins besides the Ewww factor. The movie Big Daddy has a great quote that addresses this eww factor. I slept with a boss that was about 25 years older (I was 23 she wasn't a grandma people) just happened after a stressful day working in a restaurant during a wedding party there. Didn't think anything about it till I saw a picture of someone I graduated with on her fridge afterwards and I realized she was his mom. I wasn't fond of Murphy Rollins and felt this was part of the decline of SVU which I trace back to S 15... Same time as Mariska becoming a producer and changing this show. I just didn't hate it as much as some did.

I felt like Rollins may have just been a fan of the show Grounded for Life so she put out.

I have felt that Benson has been used as a sex object throughout the show but that it has been emphasized since Mariska has become executive producer. As for the age thing that I listed maybe I was incorrect as I posted after being disappointed in another Benson only episode. My favorite episode is S12E3 "Behave" which is another Benson only episode but Jennifer Love Hewitt carries that episode so while I don't like the show's focus since she became producer I can still respect strong Benson performances.

If it looks like I am not using very many specific examples it is because I have none at the moment but based on the strength of your post I felt obliged to reply.  Thank you for posting the birth years of the actors and actresses. I thought DW was much younger because of the immaturity of his character and maybe something to do with DW himself since I have only seen him in goofy roles or less mature roles. Only actually seen him as the Mayhem guy and in Law and Order: SVU.

I can tell you do not mind the direction the show has gone down in recent seasons so our personal feelings on this are quite different. I would probably remove the younger guys part of my rant now that I have read yours and I stand corrected.

Edited February 6, 2017 by themightykazoo

[skittl3862]

20 hours ago, themightykazoo said:

I have felt that Benson has been used as a sex object throughout the show but that it has been emphasized since Mariska has become executive producer. As for the age thing that I listed maybe I was incorrect as I posted after being disappointed in another Benson only episode. My favorite episode is S12E3 "Behave" which is another Benson only episode but Jennifer Love Hewitt carries that episode so while I don't like the show's focus since she became producer I can still respect strong Benson performances.

I don't think Olivia Benson has been made out to be a sex object in recent years so much as writers forgot to give her a personal life for 12 seasons and it wasn't until Stabler and all his family drama left that they bothered to give her some attention. A 45+ year old woman who hasn't had a long term relationship in over a decade? Really? In the last 5 years, she's only dated 3 men onscreen- David Haden, Cassidy and Tucker. None of these relationships have been portrayed as particularly sexy, IMO, at least compared with the rest of TV. I think she was shown in bed with Haden once, from the collar bone up.

Rollins' entire pregnancy storyline was handled terribly and Murphy being the baby daddy after all that secretive build-up made it even worse. If they insisted on making her (completely single) character pregnant instead of just having Kelly wear big coats and stand behind desks like most shows do these days, Murphy was the best they could do? Especially since by the time of the big reveal, Donal Logue was already committed to a lead role on another show on another network and obviously couldn't commit to future appearances. Why not make up a random boyfriend to be in the background of those at-home scenes instead of hauling Carisi in?

 

I came back because I saw an older episode of SVU over the weekend and thought it was the same actress who played Sarah. Nope. The victims are just completely interchangeable actresses. Just ONCE could they have an Asian woman without it being an offensive Chinatown gangs storyline? Or a pretty young black woman in college? Or a Hispanic woman who isn't a maid? Or- god forbid- any woman who weighs over 130lbs?

[Xeliou66]

It seems like everyone involved now, victim or perp, is an upper class attractive white person. It hasn't always been this way, but as of late it has been a ton of he said-she said cases involving upper class white people. It gets tiresome quickly. 

Edited February 7, 2017 by Xeliou66

[themightykazoo]

One of the things I enjoyed about this show was it challenged your prejudices by watching because you would feel sympathy to certain people who were later shown to be monsters. You could tell a lot about someone you were watching an episode with because they would object to certain things feel, for certain characters, and just have a completely different viewing experience than what you might have experienced because of how they view life.

 

It is amazing the difference in subject matter and how the characters talk from season 1 till now. I was surprised watching Law and Order original first season because the detectives talked like people with their own views rather than people who are afraid of a lawsuit.

Edited February 8, 2017 by themightykazoo

[Desperately Random]

On 2/5/2017 at 7:00 PM, themightykazoo said:

I have felt that Benson has been used as a sex object throughout the show but that it has been emphasized since Mariska has become executive producer. As for the age thing that I listed maybe I was incorrect as I posted after being disappointed in another Benson only episode. My favorite episode is S12E3 "Behave" which is another Benson only episode but Jennifer Love Hewitt carries that episode so while I don't like the show's focus since she became producer I can still respect strong Benson performances.

I disagree with this assessment of Benson being used as a sex object. In the earlier seasons, the character did use the fact that she was an attractive woman to her advantage with suspects but I have not seen that in several years now. She has come across as a more mature and world weary police officer than anything else. Sex object is not what is conveyed to me by her actions or the dialogue.  I don't care for the way that the show has become more Benson-centric  and would like it to become more of an ensemble show because they have a great cast. I wish that the Benson character would take less of an active role in their cases but TPTB obviously feel the majority of the audience prefers that Benson has the lead role.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Desperately Random

[themightykazoo]

1 hour ago, Desperately Random said:

I disagree with this assessment of Benson being used as a sex object. In the earlier seasons, the character did use the fact that she was an attractive woman to her advantage with suspects but I have not seen that in several years now.

How do so many complain about the way she manipulates Barba and sticks her breasts in his face and  yet disagree that she uses her sex appeal? I agree with you entirely about the bad direction the show has gone because of MH and miss the ensemble cast. I think MH just assumes the audience shares her political views and so forces them down your throat. It really makes no sense the direction of this show as it has alienated many fans as evidenced by these threads and every other forum I could find discussing this show. I feel there was a demographic audience change when she became a producer that has gotten pushed through more and more lately as she assumes more power.

[WineCheeseChocolat]

On 2/6/2017 at 6:47 PM, skittl3862 said:

Rollins' entire pregnancy storyline was handled terribly and Murphy being the baby daddy after all that secretive build-up made it even worse. If they insisted on making her (completely single) character pregnant instead of just having Kelly wear big coats and stand behind desks like most shows do these days, Murphy was the best they could do? Especially since by the time of the big reveal, Donal Logue was already committed to a lead role on another show on another network and obviously couldn't commit to future appearances. Why not make up a random boyfriend to be in the background of those at-home scenes instead of hauling Carisi in?

They should've had the daddy be Nate. It would've made sense given that she kept going back to him and sleeping with him. Then he could've skipped out cuz he seems like the type to do that, and Rollins/Carisi "friendship" could've played out the same way.

The problem I had with Murphy and Rollins sleeping together wasn't that he used to be her boss or the age difference really. It's that when they met at the gambling club, he took her in, saved her shield, recognized and didn't take advantage of her demons and kind presented himself as a protective father figure to her. Then turned around and took advantage of her vulnerability and issues with older men. And yes, she is an adult perfectly capable of making her own decisions but Murphy was supposed to be better than that. He was such a breath of fresh air in S15 - strong leader, firm in his convictions, toed the line but didn't cross it. Then S16 and 17 appearances, he was crossing lines all over the place. Ugh.