S04.E16: Crossings

[Sienna]

16 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

Perhaps, Sienna, your hunch is because Apollonia died, too ("Godfather").

 

LMAO!

Seriously, I almost posted "she's Björn's Apollonia", because that's exactly what I was thinking of!

[green]

On 1/6/2017 at 8:18 AM, pasdetrois said:

As I watched I wondered if the writers were being politically correct - being careful not to portray Muslims in a bad light. The entire scenario -- very little reaction by the praying Muslims to the invaders - they didn't even turn around to see who had entered the room -- seemed unrealistic and therefore weirdly off-kilter for the show.

I don't like the sex slave storyline. I understand there were slaves used for sex, but earlier scenes of her enjoying the sex with multiple brothers seemed unrealistic. Ratings grab?

Helga just looked demented wandering through the mayhem, looking for the harem girl while Vikings thrashed all around her.

I agree the praying in the mosque while totally ignoring bloodthirsty Vikings entering same was so way over the top to enter a shark jumping domain of silliness.  No way would that ever happen.  The Prophet was a warrior at times.  The Moors, the people here, conquered large chunks of modern day Spain via the sword.  They too were a warrior race and they would have been on those Vikings in the biggest hand-to-hand combat in a situation like this.  Along with Ragnar's sudden atheism this just did not compute.

On 1/6/2017 at 10:53 AM, nodorothyparker said:

I can't remember without going back and looking now if it was Rollo or Floki who hacked the Christ on the cross down off the wall, laughing because even their god was just a dead man hung up to die.

Twas either Rollo or Leif, the Viking that arranged the meeting for Ragnar with possible first crew recruits at his home.  I do remember for sure Leif is the one that laughed and mentioned that the Christian god was already dead.  But then Rollo entered wanting to kill Athelstan so I don't know which of them hacked the cross in two.  It could have been Rollo since Ragnar didn't let him hack Aethelstan in two instead and Rollo loved to hack.  Definitely wasn't Floki.  Floki was off at that point discovering that parchment can't be eaten but can most definitely be burned.

On 1/6/2017 at 11:15 AM, Grashka said:

It's just IMO the stuff with Floki was very clumsily done in comparison to Ragnar getting to know Athelstan, sparing his life and deciding that this man may have some value. Ragnar got interested by a single man, something about the monk spoke to him and then, slowly, Athelstan's christian beliefs piqued his curiosity about the new religion. I can't forget the scene when Ragnar inquires "What's a soul"? , upon which Athelstan get that amazed, puzzled look on his face, probably for the first time in his life faced directly with such a fundamental question he doesn't know how to plainly answer. There was little to no build-up to Floki's sudden enchantment and while I understand that he was fascinated by the new religion, him being at once so upright about bodily defending the praying Muslims, seemed very heavy-handed to me, as was his earlier exposition-like heart to heart talk with Helga on the boat. Also, the thing with chanting, unmoving people in mosque, having zero reaction to the sounds of slaughter coming from the outside (while the slaughtered were most likely their families) seemed weird and not convincing IMO.

 

I totally agree with this and the first post.  I just liked how you wrote it that I thought I'd add it to mine.

Whatever the reason for Floki's flirting with Islam I don't think it had to do with the lack of gold and silver or the lack of statues.  Gold and silver were often used but were part of the building itself, not used in statues.  Floki did indeed seem to admire the craftsmanship though and as a fellow builder of things that would have perked his interest in and of itself.  But the haunting "call to prayer" chant with it's sound of yearning was what hit him first.

I don't mind that Floki is interested but the set-up was really really poor and it being Floki is way WAY too ironic.  Helga maybe.  It would have been a better story line for her than abducting kids.  But hey she did save the girl from the less than tender attentions of Halfdan.  Boy he and Finehair are really the almost total stereotype Vikings of all evil things aren't they.  They (I forget which one) cut the throat of that girl's mother while laughing.  Then Halfdan was the one that beheaded the Iman right in front of Floki.

BTW I don't think the girl Helga saved was a harem girl.  I think her mother was and was raised in the harem for the eventual but I don't think that eventual necessarily had happened to her yet.

Edited January 8, 2017 by green

[ghoulina]

7 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

As I watched I wondered if the writers were being politically correct - being careful not to portray Muslims in a bad light. The entire scenario -- very little reaction by the praying Muslims to the invaders - they didn't even turn around to see who had entered the room -- seemed unrealistic and therefore weirdly off-kilter for the show.

I felt the same way. It seemed as if given the current climate in the world, they were trying very hard to make the Muslims look like the epitome of peace. I am sure there were people in that community who were peaceful, but it was only, what? 150 years prior that the Muslims had attacked and conquered Spain? And they were notorious for keeping Spanish and Eastern European slaves. It kind of goes back to my post from last week - that everybody at one point was pretty shitty and aggressive to someone else. So I'd like to see a bit more balance in the storytelling. 

[slf]

10 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

As I watched I wondered if the writers were being politically correct - being careful not to portray Muslims in a bad light. The entire scenario -- very little reaction by the praying Muslims to the invaders - they didn't even turn around to see who had entered the room -- seemed unrealistic and therefore weirdly off-kilter for the show.

I don't think they were worried about portraying the Muslims in a bad light and so wrote them differently. The Vikings assaulted them so naturally the Muslims were the victims; I don't think "let's not have the Muslims do anything that can be construed as bad" crossed their minds, especially since they had the harem. (Life in a harem often wasn't voluntary. Or pleasant.) The Christians in England weren't portrayed in a bad light when we first met them, either. The more time we spent with them the more we saw awful Englishmen and oppressive English practices, alongside the good. If Bjorn and the others stay in that region or return we're going to see more sides to Muslim culture.

I didn't think the Muslims continuing to pray was that odd. I've heard stories of Jews doing the same during WW2. They knew they were going to die- they weren't warriors, it was a small merchant village, so they chose instead to go to their mosque and pray. It's not common but it's not unheard of, either.

I've read that sometimes when the Vikings would raid Muslim territories the Muslims would use greek fire against the Vikings, quite successfully as you'd imagine, though I'm not sure in which century. Given that the seer foretold a 'burning sea' I'm hoping this is going in that direction. Sounds awful, I know, but I really want a proper display of Viking boats trapped in a sea of fire. The Battle of the Blackwater on Game of Thrones, in which Tyrion repelled Stannis' invasion with greek fire-inspired 'wildfire', was a highlight of the second season. I want something similar on this show.

Edited January 7, 2017 by slf

[SingleMaltBlonde]

13 hours ago, Kalliste said:

I don't think it makes Ragnar's loss of belief any less real because we saw Odin appear to his sons. It just suggests that maybe Ragnar was wrong and the gods were actually there.

I don't know if I buy he was an athesist as much as he was doubting/angry with the gods...

[insubordination]

1. I agree that some of the scenes with Ivar were a bit overwrought.  He’s such a new character that I couldn’t feel for his grief. I just noticed what nice teeth he had. An older actor would have had conspicuous silver amalgams.

     However, the scene where knifey Ivar crawled up to Lagertha on the throne was delicious and fascinating to watch. Ivar had the upper hand there.  I will keep watching the show if Ivar keeps crawling around in the dirt with those giant blue eyes.  Scarier that ‘Alien/s’ now we know what he’s capable of.

   Bjorn cut a tall and striking figure as a Viking raider. He can be so taciturn (he certainly wasn't as a kid!). Doesn’t seem humour-filled like Daddy, but they should be different.  

   Still, I don’t want the harem woman to fall in love with him. Ugh! Bjorn and Ivar are the only sons that interest me at present. Hope that changes and the others are given better material.  This was not the case in this ep.

2. Yes, he’s got off too lightly but…

   Rollo got his groove back.  

   (murder and rape is his groove)

   Missing Ragnar

    

   Quote

   They've  clearly pulled back from showing us the mass rape  that occured behind the camera.

   Much better this way for me. I can handle violent combat scenes most of the time. I guess I’ve been desensitised.  However, I don’t want to become desensitised to sexual violence.  I’m so (fucking) tired of seeing graphic rape. The other shows I watch (Outlander, Game of Thrones) have a sick obsession with screening sexual violence in excruciating detail and with great frequency.   I’m glad Vikings decided to do it this way on this occasion. Viewers get the gist of what happened.    Besides, if they showed Bjorn raping someone, it would taint the character for me. I often wish that Rollo hadn’t raped the slave in the first episode.

   Speaking of Game of Thrones, someone wondered last week how long it would be before the sons would hear of Ragnar’s death because they can’t just ‘send a raven’. Well!

3.  

   Moops!

   I though GustavS did a good job, but I don’t want this kind of character development for the Flockster (or Helga). I remember what a heartless prick he was to religious folk in another place, and it was his ‘Vikingness’ and true belief that was his saving grace (OK, and the boats). It made me forgive him for all that other annoying ‘precious’ type shit.  He is fierce and ruthless in combat and when it comes to his faith.  Let's face it though, they're not going to air a full-on mosque massacre in the present political climate. Was surprised that one was killed.

   PS Missing Ragnar

Edited January 7, 2017 by insubordination

[tennisgurl]

I think the idea of Floki having a sort of Viking mid life crisis is an interesting idea, and him trying to explore new religions due to feeling out of place with his own gods is an interesting idea, but this episode did not really have it make a lot of sense. One of the biggest aspects of Flokis character is his intense devotion to the Norse gods, and hatred of all other gods, and his protection of the Muslim guys praying just seemed out of character. Why are they different than the Christians who kept praying while the Vikings (Floki included) slaughtered them? Does he just dig their architecture more? Impressed that they dont have pictures of their gods? I can still get behind this story if the writers give us some more context to this change. 

Also acting weird? Helga. She looked totally deranged running around following that girl, than dragging her back to Viking Land. She isn't a lost puppy on the side of the road Helga! She is not going to do any better being taken away from her home to a place and culture that is totally different than her own! 

I hope, if they are going to continue introducing the Muslim world, they can show them like they have shown the other cultures we have seen, with good and bad aspects, different cultural norms, and good people and bad people. I would really enjoy that, especially with the show trying to find its way post Ragnar. 

Bjorn is quite imposing in raiding mode. However, he still gets a bit of the Ragnar crazy eye when he meets someone willing to fight him. Speaking of Ragnar, its too bad he died before he could see Spain. He would have LOVED seeing all this cool new stuff (and stealing it). 

I love when this show gets all supernatural on us. Odin showing himself to all of Rangars sons was epic as hell. I want all the music in this show to play in my life all the time.

[Stratego]

On 1/6/2017 at 1:22 PM, Sienna said:

 

LMAO!

Seriously, I almost posted "she's Björn's Apollonia", because that's exactly what I was thinking of!

I'm envisioning Bjorn returning to Kattegat with this gal. He brings her "home" and says:  "Hey Torvii, meet your new BFF. I met her on my travels to the 'Med'--I'm sure you'll like her!"

[Sienna]

55 minutes ago, Stratego said:

I'm envisioning Bjorn returning to Kattegat with this gal. He brings her "home" and says:  "Hey Torvii, meet your new BFF. I met her on my travels to the 'Med'--I'm sure you'll like her!"

Well they kind of already did that when Aslaug showed up in Kattegat, and she and Ragnar tried to convince Lagertha that the three of them all groove on together, but Lagertha wasn't buying it. Somehow I doubt Torvi would, either.

I just hope they we don't have to see them rehash a plot line we've already seen, either that one, or Yidu's "exotic slave girl" trope, as someone else mentioned upthread.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

1 hour ago, Stratego said:

I'm envisioning Bjorn returning to Kattegat with this gal. He brings her "home" and says:  "Hey Torvii, meet your new BFF. I met her on my travels to the 'Med'--I'm sure you'll like her!"

But Torvii is no Lagertha....

[slf]

1 hour ago, Sienna said:

Well they kind of already did that when Aslaug showed up in Kattegat, and she and Ragnar tried to convince Lagertha that the three of them all groove on together, but Lagertha wasn't buying it. Somehow I doubt Torvi would, either.

What the hell Ragnar was I thinking I don't know (and I don't buy that Aslaug really meant for the three of them to continue to live together). Torvi has grown a lot since she met Bjorn and Lagertha, especially this season. The Torvi we first met wouldn't have participated in an invasion. So perhaps you're right, she won't tolerate it. But with Hirst who the hell knows? Perhaps he'll have her play the long game and turn the other cheek figuring Bjorn will grow bored with the new woman eventually. I hope not.

[magdalene]

1 hour ago, slf said:

What the hell Ragnar was I thinking I don't know (and I don't buy that Aslaug really meant for the three of them to continue to live together). Torvi has grown a lot since she met Bjorn and Lagertha, especially this season. The Torvi we first met wouldn't have participated in an invasion. So perhaps you're right, she won't tolerate it. But with Hirst who the hell knows? Perhaps he'll have her play the long game and turn the other cheek figuring Bjorn will grow bored with the new woman eventually. I hope not.

If the harem girl really is the Appollonia to Bjorns Michael Corleone Torvi won't have to put up with her for that long - Torvi only has to outlive her.

[benteen]

Torvi has changed a lot since we first met her.  Remember, Jarl Borg made her hold the skull of his first wife when they were married.  Now though, I don't think she'll be a pushover when Bjorn brings home the harem girl.

It's interesting that Bjorn seems to like the slaves and harem girls.  Ragnar married a mighty shield maiden and a Princess, while we thought he might have had a thing with Queen Crazypants but apparently not.

[Granny58]

On 1/4/2017 at 10:14 PM, gwhh said:

I think they have jumped the shark here.  

Making Loki Polticaly Correct.  It made me sick! 

The old Loki would have killed all those heathens and enjoyed doing it. And would not have thought twice about it.  Before, during, or after  

 

May be an error of history here. What year is this set in?   What year did Muslim first come to Spain??   

The Muslims invaded in 711 and in 7 years had succeeded.  the timeline is okay.  and actually, I think Floki's storyline is intruiging.  He was expressing the emptiness of his soul and came across a superior (for the time) culture, with a haunting call to prayer.  He is drawn to it.  I get it.  

[green]

9 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

The Muslims invaded in 711 and in 7 years had succeeded.  the timeline is okay.  and actually, I think Floki's storyline is intruiging.  He was expressing the emptiness of his soul and came across a superior (for the time) culture, with a haunting call to prayer.  He is drawn to it.  I get it.  

I think the problem here though is that this whole story line including the set-up scene on the ship with Helga felt both hurriedly and awkwardly shoehorned in and wasn't developed in any kind of natural matter that made sense.  He needed to have been seen angst-ing about more at least starting with the time jump.  They didn't do it.  So the whole thing just feels 100% artificially contrived to me.  That's my problem with it.

Also for those people discussing this actor named Jonathan Rhys Meyers?  Spinxella posted a spoiler in the Speculation with Spoilers: We Are All Seers Now thread that officially confirms who he is playing in the show complete with picture of him in full costume.  Hint:  It is NOT who most people here were speculating he would be playing.  But the character sounds extremely interesting.

Anyone not wanting to enter the thread fearing too much given away but curious about this casting just let us know here.  We can post a summary of just this spoiler in spoiler tags for you.

Edited January 8, 2017 by green

[Granny58]

On 1/5/2017 at 4:21 PM, ihartcoffee said:

I noticed his huge smile,  it was hilarious.  I bet he was bored out of his mind in Paris. 

Not to nitpick, but just to clear this up for me.  Was Rollo still in Paris?  I thought he was already ruling Normandy.

On 1/5/2017 at 8:10 PM, LOA-maker said:

Pretty odd though, since Islam and Christianity are sister religions with very similar teachings.

but he doesn't know anything about it initially.  He was just drawn to the call to prayer and the devoutness (I think).

[green]

7 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

Not to nitpick, but just to clear this up for me.  Was Rollo still in Paris?  I thought he was already ruling Normandy.

You are totally right.  I posted the same thing one page back.  Rollo never ruled in Paris.  He was made Duke of Normandy per his agreement with Charles to flip sides originally.

[Stratego]

4 minutes ago, green said:

You are totally right.  I posted the same thing one page back.  Rollo never ruled in Paris.  He was made Duke of Normandy per his agreement with Charles to flip sides originally.

Rouen--the capital of Normandy.

[LOA-maker]

On ‎06‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 9:18 AM, pasdetrois said:

As I watched I wondered if the writers were being politically correct - being careful not to portray Muslims in a bad light. The entire scenario -- very little reaction by the praying Muslims to the invaders - they didn't even turn around to see who had entered the room -- seemed unrealistic and therefore weirdly off-kilter for the show.

I don't like the sex slave storyline. I understand there were slaves used for sex, but earlier scenes of her enjoying the sex with multiple brothers seemed unrealistic. Ratings grab?

Helga just looked demented wandering through the mayhem, looking for the harem girl while Vikings thrashed all around her.

Jefferson had favoured slaves....for...erm...special times....  It could be a similar thing here, even though this is European and not later transatlantic slavery.  Considering she's of that value to Ubbe, I doubt he'd mistreat her, possibly grant her freedom in due course (like how Bjorn fell for Thorrun in the early seasons who was also a slave).

[Jordan61]

On 1/5/2017 at 1:15 PM, Babalooie said:

Talk about confusing!  As GREEN  mentioned, through ancestry.com (this is not a commercial), I have found that I am descended from Ivar, Sigurd, Aella, and Eckbert!  

Not to be rude and contradictory, but nobody is descended from Ivar. He was unmarried and childless, hence the speculation about his impotence.

On 1/5/2017 at 7:29 AM, ghoulina said:

Alex Hogh Anderson continues to be mesmerizing. They really picked the perfect person to play Ivar. For an actor to be able to completely let themselves go like Ivar did while mourning his losses in the mountains - that is no easy feat. It was touching and uncomfortable and very real.

Agreed. While many people seem to feel it was over the top, as someone who recently lost a father that scene tore at my heart and was a great representation of how it felt to lose him.

[millennium]

On 1/6/2017 at 8:18 AM, pasdetrois said:

As I watched I wondered if the writers were being politically correct - being careful not to portray Muslims in a bad light. The entire scenario -- very little reaction by the praying Muslims to the invaders - they didn't even turn around to see who had entered the room -- seemed unrealistic and therefore weirdly off-kilter for the show.

 

It felt like pandering.   The whole raid was devoid of heart.  Floki's fascination came off like diversity scripting.

Oh, and now we get to anticipate Lagertha's imminent demise.

Terrible episode overall.  But then, nothing's fun when you're grieving the loss of an old friend.

Edited January 8, 2017 by millennium

[Captanne]

Back to Floki and the Muslim fascination for a sec.  There was some special irony when he protected the praying men, huh?  Considering what he did, while shape shifting into a wolf, to the last praying man of significance. 

For me, Floki's comment of feeling hollow and lost in the ship (feeling a disruption in the Force one could say) was plenty for me to open the door to his fascination with the reverence of the Muslim praying men and the haunting call to prayer during the raid. I'm quite fine with that. Along with Helga's funhouse mirror-maze chase for the little girl. 

They crammed everyone's grief into one episode and, for me, it was all equally effective.  Lagertha and the ghost, the sons and Odin's visit, Floki and the torn fabric of Force, Bjorn's mountaintop revelation. All that on 45 minutes. Pretty well done.  

Edited January 8, 2017 by Captanne

[raven]

Quote

It felt like pandering.   The whole raid was devoid of heart.  Floki's fascination came off like diversity scripting.

Though I liked the ep overall, I do agree with this.   Too bad the women weren't allowed to pray with the men, instead of Floki's mercy or whatever they get raped and dragged off to slavery.

This one felt like "OK, you got all warm and fuzzy over Ragnar?  Don't forget, this is what these guys are about!"   I miss Ragnar because he at least was interested in knowledge, we don't see that with anyone else yet.  Bjorn has the leadership and ruthlessness.  I can see him being a strong, pragmatic type of leader.  The two obnoxious brothers are in for a surprise if they take him on, thinking he's weak.

Helga came off deranged.  I don't know what they are doing with her. 

Who's watching Lagertha's earldom?   I'm not thrilled with what they're doing with her - she can't bear to kill one of Ragnar's sons?  I could be more accepting if she doesn't consider Ivar a threat, though she should be smarter than to underestimate anyone.   I can believe that she always loved Ragnar and is a little stunned over his death, but the longing seems out of character, or off, somehow, like Floki's sudden fascination.

Loved the Odin/ravens scenes and I can believe that the Valkyries were summoning Ragnar home at the end.  I wonder if there's any significance in Odin approaching Ivar and Sigurd yet keeping distance from the other three?  Those last 5 minutes were the best part of the episode, Vikings does handle that kind of thing really well.

[millennium]

35 minutes ago, raven said:

I miss Ragnar because he at least was interested in knowledge, we don't see that with anyone else yet. 

You're absolutely right and I didn't realize what was missing until you put it into words.   There was no intellectual curiosity among Bjorn's war party.   It was merely a raid for raiding's sake, a vulgar show of force, half-hearted, with no plan whatsoever.   A hollow echo of raids past.

[Babalooie]

Jordan61,    I would love to see your links regarding Ivar having no children.  The "boneless"  moniker has several interpretations.  Here is a link listing a child.  Since we weren't there and written records were sparse, it's six of one, half a dozen of another.     We are watching historical fiction.  

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~dearbornboutwell/fam4132.html

Edited January 8, 2017 by Babalooie

[nodorothyparker]

That apparent lack of curiosity been my biggest concern with killing off Ragnar.  I can accept that the show wants to move into the next generation of storytelling and while I'll miss the actor and what he brings to the role, it's the sense of discovery and "great greedy joy" as one reviewer put it that elevated this beyond watching one group of people slash and burn through a weaker group of people week after week.  That would have gotten old for me pretty fast.

Bjorn at least had the line at the end when finally looking out over the Mediterranean that it was farther than their people had ever been and more than even Ragnar had dreamed.  But we didn't see any sense of that when the raiding party landed at all, barring Floki's much discussed moment at the mosque.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

4 hours ago, Captanne said:

Back to Floki and the Muslim fascination for a sec.  There was some special irony when he protected the praying men, huh?  Considering what he did, while shape shifting into a wolf, to the last praying man of significance. 

For me, Floki's comment of feeling hollow and lost in the ship (feeling a disruption in the Force one could say) was plenty for me to open the door to his fascination with the reverence of the Muslim praying men and the haunting call to prayer during the raid. I'm quite fine with that. Along with Helga's funhouse mirror-maze chase for the little girl. 

They crammed everyone's grief into one episode and, for me, it was all equally effective.  Lagertha and the ghost, the sons and Odin's visit, Floki and the torn fabric of Force, Bjorn's mountaintop revelation. All that on 45 minutes. Pretty well done.  

I don't like Floki's 180 but the un-PC view could be that while Christianity is a peaceful religion, Islam has more of a warior vibe which could appeal to a Viking.

As far as Viking women wearing muslim jewelry...I don't think that implies marriage as much as a Viking bringing home loot and neither party understanding what it said or may have meant.

[formerlyfreedom]

Please take further discussion about Ivar's 'future' over to the History discussion, and stick to episode discussion in here. Thank you!

[TammyB]

I found the scene with Loki refusing to kill the men praying ridiculous. He had no problem killing monks when the show first started and I believe nuns.  I think they are just going with the current Hollywood political correctness, this is such a "peaceful" religion that Loki didn't want them killed' please stop!!!!!   I love this show but that was ridiculous, the real Vikings would have killed everyone there.  And on top of that right after, they find a harem and take all the woman as slaves, presumably raping them first, but they just let a room full of men go?  Give me a break.

[green]

10 hours ago, millennium said:

You're absolutely right and I didn't realize what was missing until you put it into words.   There was no intellectual curiosity among Bjorn's war party.   It was merely a raid for raiding's sake, a vulgar show of force, half-hearted, with no plan whatsoever.   A hollow echo of raids past.

 

7 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

That apparent lack of curiosity been my biggest concern with killing off Ragnar.  I can accept that the show wants to move into the next generation of storytelling and while I'll miss the actor and what he brings to the role, it's the sense of discovery and "great greedy joy" as one reviewer put it that elevated this beyond watching one group of people slash and burn through a weaker group of people week after week.  That would have gotten old for me pretty fast.

Bjorn at least had the line at the end when finally looking out over the Mediterranean that it was farther than their people had ever been and more than even Ragnar had dreamed.  But we didn't see any sense of that when the raiding party landed at all, barring Floki's much discussed moment at the mosque.

I think the combo of Ragnar's fascination with knowledge and learning coupled with Athelstan having served as kind of the conscience of the show are two large voids to fill.  I can see Alfred eventually semi-filling parts of those areas though not all of them and Alfred isn't a Viking as well. 

We need a new generation Viking character, NOT Floki, to start showing interest in other cultures.  After all the Vikings eventually adopt Christianity down the road.  We need to see our first younger doubters of the Norse gods and what happens when others in their community run into this "problem."

I think that Hirst was wrong to kill off Athelstan because he, Hirst, felt he could do no more with the character.  Athelstan, having decided on Christianity and then deciding (via Ragnar's plea) to stay among the Vikings could have served that purpose if historically too early.  But Rollo was historically too early too so the time line is messed with already.  And Aslaug had already killed off one would be Christian missionary so there is already contact going on in Hirst's storyline.

Anyway I remember Ragnar's daughter in Season 1 was a very sweet, gentle girl who was very taken with Athelstan and I could see something like this happening with another Viking youngster say and the repercussions thereof.  If Floki's daughter had not been "died off" the show then that would have been a nice ironic storyline if she had gotten entranced with Athelstan's Christianity down the line.  Floki, otoh, is too old a leopard to change his spots without admitting his whole life was totally wrong and for nothing.  I'm not buying such a massive change.  Doubts, yes.  Not this sudden stuff.

Edited January 9, 2017 by green

[millennium]

I just can't fucking believe Floki outlived Ragnar.

I hate Floki, from the first episode.   The character.  The actor's portrayal.   The guyliner.  

I never would have guessed a day would come when Ragnar was gone and we'd still be stuck with Floki.   If he becomes a larger presence in the show now that Ragnar's gone, I don't know what I'll do.

I wanted to add, Travis Fimmel's voice-over at the end of this episode carried more power than when he spoke it at Ragnar's execution.   It's odd.   Ragnar had told Ecbert he would make a speech like that as he was being killed.  So we expected it and it seemed not entirely sincere.   But here, stripped of the spectacle, thundering against a backdrop of mountains, mist and ravens, it was a thing raw and beautiful.   

[slf]

6 hours ago, TammyB said:

I found the scene with Loki refusing to kill the men praying ridiculous. He had no problem killing monks when the show first started and I believe nuns.  I think they are just going with the current Hollywood political correctness, this is such a "peaceful" religion that Loki didn't want them killed' please stop!!!!!   I love this show but that was ridiculous, the real Vikings would have killed everyone there.  And on top of that right after, they find a harem and take all the woman as slaves, presumably raping them first, but they just let a room full of men go?  Give me a break.

Hollywood isn't politically correct, not at all.

The Vikings didn't just slaughter every single person they ever came across. They had trade relations with many people, including the Muslims. They were merchants and even worked for Muslims as mercenaries at times. They weren't a monolith; Charlemagne despised them, as did many people for very valid reasons (they were invaders who murdered, raped, and enslaved people), but many people also had more positive interactions with them. For example, Muslim explorer and geographer Ibn Rustah liked and respected them, saying:

"They keep their clothes clean and the men adorn themselves with armbands of gold... They are generous to each other, honour their guests and treat well those who seek refuge with them, and all who come to visit them. They do not allow anyone to annoy or harm these. And whenever anyone dares to treat them unfairly they help and defend them."

As w/r/t how the Vikings treated the men vs the women this ep, they murdered a lot of men in the market. I wasn't paying close attention to the parade of slaves at the end but it's likely they captured men as well as the women.

[ghoulina]

15 hours ago, green said:

We need a new generation Viking character, NOT Floki, to start showing interest in other cultures.  After all the Vikings eventually adopt Christianity down the road.  We need to see our first younger doubters of the Norse gods and what happens when others in their community run into this "problem."

I can see Ivar possibly filling this roll. He seems the more intelligent of the brothers, to me. He's the one who's had to sit back and observe a lot in his life, so I think that has gotten him far. Ragnar even told him, before he died, that his mind will get him far. I do hope that leads to more than just cunning in battle and politics. He seemed to enjoy chess with Alfred, and wasn't horribly humiliated when he was bested by the youngster. I have hopes for Ivar, despite his dark side. 

Edited January 9, 2017 by ghoulina

[Captanne]

I think Hirst was wrong to kill off Athelstan the way he did.  Effectively, he put the important character of Floki in a corner that he has yet to credibly get out of.  You can't shape-shift your way into killing a kneeling, naked, praying, utterly vulnerable man and not be labelled a monster in perpetuity without some sort of personal rehabilitation.  The character was ruined in that moment the way it was handled.  (Also, so two dimensional.  Floki = Me want Ragnar; me kill Athelstan; Floki Wolf!  Floki Kill!   Athelstan = I am an innocent peaceful monk praying alone on my knees in my underwear.)

[BitterApple]

I think Floki just needs to die, like now. It's almost like they're trying to transfer elements of Ragnar's personality onto Floki and it's failing miserably. During the Mosque scene I was half expecting him to kidnap some poor sap and turn him into his own personal Athelstan. I guess maybe Hirst needed someone to play the "good guy" to built up the conflict between Bjorn's crew and the Finehair brothers, but the whole thing was badly executed. I'm also on board with those dreading the inevitable Bjorn/Slave Girl love affair. It's so cliche and such an overused arc. I'm hoping it doesn't go there.

[Ohwell]

Although the scene in the mosque was strange, I don't mind Floki and I like his character.  I was mad at him for killing Athelstan but even then I understood his jealousy.

I actually thought Helga was acting weirder than Floki, running around like a raccoon-eyed madwoman. 

[nowornever]

Despite the killing of the viking crew with Ragnar, the adult Ivar doesn't seem as much of a sociopath as the child who split another child's head with an axe and said "who cares" about little Siggy's death.  I'm a little bit afraid that I'll start liking him and then Michael Hirst will suddenly make him soullessly violent again. 

I'm also enjoying watching Bjorn try to live up to Ragnar's legacy.  He's developing into a fine leader, but better be watching his back.  I really hope they don't drag him into a relationship with the slave woman.  As others have said, we've seen that story already. As they advanced on the town, it was obvious that he had mastered Ragnar's swaggering walk too.  :-)

The brothers seem to have been divided into three factions- Sigurd and Ubbe are sticking together, Ivar is an island unto himself, and Bjorn seems to have the same sort of mentoring relationship with Hvitsirk that Rollo had with him when he was younger.  It could create some interesting dynamics when they're all back in Kattegat.  

And Rollo- how many times will they forgive him for betraying them, then bring him back into the fold?  He leads a charmed life.  But his unbridled joy at being a viking again was priceless. 

[SingleMaltBlonde]

1 hour ago, nowornever said:

The brothers seem to have been divided into three factions- Sigurd and Ubbe are sticking together, Ivar is an island unto himself, and Bjorn seems to have the same sort of mentoring relationship with Hvitsirk that Rollo had with him when he was younger.  It could create some interesting dynamics when they're all back in Kattegat.  

Some things never change....brothers will be vicious with one another but if someone else throws a punch toward one they get to fight all of them.

[Knuckles]

I rewatched the episode today, and I was struck by the words of Ragnar echoing across that barren field...it was very powerful...as the poster above noted, more so than when Ragnar was alive and spoke them.

And I was also struck by something Travis Fimmel said in an interview, how the show has such a rich and fully imagined look, despite a fairly small budget...compared say, to GOT. They do wonders with the music as well...it is so haunting.

Despite the absence of Ragnar, I do love this show...and i am perversely fond of Floki, the strange, violent and unpredictable Floki. He and Lagertha are some of the last of the old guard.

[insubordination]

Quote

And Rollo- how many times will they forgive him for betraying them, then bring him back into the fold?  He leads a charmed life.  But his unbridled joy at being a viking again was priceless.

I just fanwank that they think they're biding their time until he outlives his usefulness.  I'd rather have Rollo in the show than not, so I'm glad they figured out a way to weave him back in.

[Captanne]

Same quote as the poster above me -- I didn't find Rollo's return to Viking-ness at all amusing.  While I enjoy Rollo (both because the character is awesome and historical but also because the actor is amazingly handsome and good), and I enjoyed the raiding which this show does so well -- I was absolutely disgusted by the harem gang rape.

That the Vikings to a man found it funny and something to just toss off as a "boys will be boys" adventure was utterly disgusting.  It made me as viscerally revolted as the more graphic merciless bloodletting as they ran through the shook (spelling, I know.)  

Rollo's face when he joined the other Vikings in the raping took me right back to his character at his lowest point raping the slave girl.

I was saddened by that writing choice.  [sadface]

[nowornever]

My apologies, Captanne.  I wasn't referring to Rollo enjoying the rape, just his delight in shedding the Frankish stuffiness and going back out to raid. 

In that same vein, I struggle with wanting to hold characters (fictional and historical) to the standards of behavior that we use today.   I am drawn to many of the characters for different reasons, even though as vikings, I know they're going to raid, rape and kill.  

17 hours ago, SingleMaltBlonde said:

Some things never change....brothers will be vicious with one another but if someone else throws a punch toward one they get to fight all of them.

I'm waiting to see what happens when Bjorn and Hvitsirk return to Kattegat and discover Lagertha's return to the throne via Aslaug's death.  I feel like Sigurd, Ubbe, and Ivar are biding their time and will soon be actively plotting revenge. Upon return, Hvitsirk might have to make a choice if he and Bjorn are still enjoying the big brother/little brother relationship they're having now.  

[Captanne]

I think it's always safe to say it's tricky trying to hold historical figures to today's standards.  On that point I completely agree.  (I'm an historian by trade.)

On the other hand, finding rape amusing in any situation is problematic for me.  Whether we're talking about an historical figure or a modern day one.  Like Kant seemed to believe, there are moral laws which must transcend and be universal.  A line must be drawn.  Human slavery is bad.  There may be an entire human spectrum over time about how it is viewed and treated but -- slavery is forever bad.  Rape is another one -- rape is bad.  There may be an entire human spectrum over time (and culture) about how it is viewed and treated but -- rape is forever bad.  

To see a character I'm fond of clearly enjoy and dismiss raping another human being is forever sad to me.

 

I mean to say that as a response and in the most gentle way I know.  I'm off the topic, now, though.  I think there is agreement about the fundamentals -- and I was just so sad to see Rollo behave the way he did and take the character back to its lowest point.  I had hoped that was behind us.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Captanne

[dmaximus123]

Did anyone make out what Ragnar's voice said when Bjorn and his half brother were by the Mediterranean sea and saw the ravens?

[ghoulina]

"How the little piglets would grunt if they knew how the old boar had suffered"?