Star Trek: Enterprise - General Discussion

[ElleMo]

I just finished the last episode and boy did that suck.  I am not looking forward to the new series at all.

[readster]

23 hours ago, ElleMo said:

I just finished the last episode and boy did that suck.  I am not looking forward to the new series at all.

I know, the final episode has some of the biggest WTF and that they were trying to do it as a homage to Pegasus made it even worst. 

[Sandman]

So, I'm doing a little Netflix rewatch (well, actually, I'm watching this might be more accurate, since I never made it past the first couple of episodes in the original run), and I'm definitely enjoying it a little more this time around, but two things are standing out for me (as of episode 20):

• I really hate this show's conception of Vulcans -- they've "purged" their emotions, so of course they're supercilious, prideful, and grumpy -- and the not-nice ones are pervy, mind-raping thrillseekers. Ew. (But I think the not-so-mastered emotions might actually be a plot point, so.) But, seriously, Vulcans aren't interested in exploring? So much for the Vulcan Science Academy, I guess. I never knew logic was the enemy of curiosity.
• Oh, my Jesus, that theme song. Does Russell Watson even have a career anymore? I'm guessing no. I think Diane Warren and Rick Berman may have killed it.

It actually feels good to get that off my chest. Thanks!

ETA: Finally, finally, as of "Fallen Hero," a Vulcan who acts like a Vulcan.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Sandman
Thank the Lord for Fionnula Flanagan, that's all I can say!

[johnar]

On 4/13/2014 at 1:22 AM, Meushell said:

I think it pretty much is "Star Trek: Enterprise" now. I don't think I would have even thought to look for it under E for Enterprise.

I'm rewatching the series at the moment. Current in season 2, and I'll be in season 3 soon. Season 3 was, imo, when the show really started.

Given the generally unpleaseable audience ENT faced, I believe it did very well establishing itself in seasons 1 and 2.

[ae2]

On 8/30/2017 at 9:09 PM, Sandman said:

So, I'm doing a little Netflix rewatch (well, actually, I'm watching this might be more accurate, since I never made it past the first couple of episodes in the original run), and I'm definitely enjoying it a little more this time around, but two things are standing out for me (as of episode 20):

• I really hate this show's conception of Vulcans -- they've "purged" their emotions, so of course they're supercilious, prideful, and grumpy -- and the not-nice ones are pervy, mind-raping thrillseekers. Ew. (But I think the not-so-mastered emotions might actually be a plot point, so.) But, seriously, Vulcans aren't interested in exploring? So much for the Vulcan Science Academy, I guess. I never knew logic was the enemy of curiosity.
• Oh, my Jesus, that theme song. Does Russell Watson even have a career anymore? I'm guessing no. I think Diane Warren and Rick Berman may have killed it.

It actually feels good to get that off my chest. Thanks!

ETA: Finally, finally, as of "Fallen Hero," a Vulcan who acts like a Vulcan.

Without spoiling anything, I can say that the show addresses your Vulcan issues in later seasons (particularly S4), and we finally get somewhere closer to the standard Trek concept of Vulcans. This won't necessarily make the early seasons more tolerable (particularly one episode in S2), but there is hope on the horizon. 

[Sandman]

I've gathered some hints elsewhere about S4, and I suspect you're right; the second season is already more tolerable than the first, in part because Archer and T'Pol aren't behaving like snippy adolescents around each other quite as much. (Although the episode called "The Seventh" was more trying than it needed to be.) I haven't given up yet, anyway.

[Meushell]

On 9/9/2017 at 0:15 PM, johnar said:

Given the generally unpleaseable audience ENT faced, I believe it did very well establishing itself in seasons 1 and 2.

 There are some good episodes in those seasons, of course, but personally, I about gave up on the show in those seasons. Season 3 got me back, and I enjoyed the rest of the show.  It did get a lot of hate from the audience (both reasonable and unreasonable), but that doesn't change the quality of the show.

[friendperidot]

Klingons are 7 foot? Archer just said so. Episode one just finished, again, on H&I. I didn't think Worf was that big, but maybe I'm in error.

[CooperTV]

On 25.10.2017 at 8:00 AM, friendperidot said:

Klingons are 7 foot? Archer just said so. Episode one just finished, again, on H&I. I didn't think Worf was that big, but maybe I'm in error.

I have the impression from watching TNG that we're supposed to think the Klingons are giants because of the certain angles they're always filmed at.

[friendperidot]

Watching on H&I, season 1, episode 6, Terra Nova. I think this dialogue was written by the same person who wrote an episode on Voyager, but I don't know the season or episode number or title, but Chacotay was stranded on a planet and was with a group of warriors who really hated their enemy, he saw people of the warriors' village being loaded up to be taken to camps and was angry. All the time, the enemy was on Voyager and Captain Janeway was negotiating agreements. Seems like the loading up and taking away the villagers was some kind of induced delusion. But the warriors on that episode and Terrans in this episode spoke with the same cadence and use the same kind of words, "eyes track", "I'm leg broke", "I've seen back", "our before-goers."

[Maverick]

I believe that Voyager episode was "Nemesis". Chakotay was kidnapped by a group of rebels who brainwashed their victims into fighting for their cause.  

[friendperidot]

thank you, was able to look them up and it looks like the only writer in common was Rick Berman, but it seemed to me the dialogue and the cadence of the dialogue was very similar. I see that he was credited as "created by" on both episodes and series, I don't know how much of the writing of the individual episode dialogue he did. I am a casual viewer, do more listening than watching. It has been a while since I saw the Voyager episode, now I will pay attention when it comes around in rotation. 

Edited to add, looks like it will be on again in a week or so.

Edited November 1, 2017 by friendperidot

[friendperidot]

now, back to the Klingons being 7 ft tall. Just watched Deep Space Nine, Season 3, Episode 3, House of Quark, where Quark has killed a Klingon and the widow coerces Quark to marry her and defend her house so she can rule her own house. At the end of the confrontation between Quark and D'Gor, the leader of the Council kneels next to Quark, then they both stand, the Klingon is barely taller than Quark. And all of the Ferengi are short. 

[neuromom]

 I’m probably in the minority in that I never really like Vulcans from TOS, except for Spock.  I always thought that was because he was half human . The others all seemed very arrogant to me.  So I had no problem with how ENT portrayed them at the start.  The main Vulcan characters had character growth throughout the series and they were likable. There were also several episodes with Vulcans in them. And they seemed to have some degree of individual personalities.

 I may be wrong, but  weren’t Vulcans portrayed on ENT  more prominently than any other of the series?   I personally look at the ENT Vulcans as more “canon”. But I know  that is an unpopular opinion considering  most people will look at  TOS  and all of its 66 episodes as the “standard bearer”

[friendperidot]

Episode on H&I tonight, Enterprise comes across a crashed ship, parts of Borg, they started regenerating. Wasn't paying a lot of attention, something about them sending a message to their home world in the Delta Quantrant. I didn't know the Borg had a home world, I thought they took over other's homeworlds. And their ship was a perfect sphere. I thought their ships were cubes. Obviously, I don't know much of Borg history and ships. 

[Maverick]

They don't have a homeworld per se (not that was shown at least) but the largest area they control (over 10,000 light years--Kes had to throw Voyager past it as her parting gift) is in the Delta Quadrant.

Borg ships were originally all identical cubes.  The spheres were introduced in Star Trek: First Contact and then routinely showed up in Voyager Borg-related episodes.   

[friendperidot]

I never made the connection that latnum was liquid platnum until just now, watching Season 3, episode 1, The Xindi when Archer made an arrangement with a freighter captain to see his captured Xindi. I've heard that word used all over Deep Space Nine, but never realized what it was. I am such an observant fan (heavy sarcasm). 

Merry Christmas to all those who pay much more attention than I and to those who pay as little attention as I.

[John Potts]

On ‎20‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 6:19 AM, friendperidot said:

Enterprise comes across a crashed ship, parts of Borg, they started regenerating. Wasn't paying a lot of attention, something about them sending a message to their home world in the Delta Quantrant. I didn't know the Borg had a home world

In Voyager they are shown to have a massive space base (Unimatrix One, IIRC) where the Borg Queen generally hangs out. Presumably that's where the message was being sent.

[Pippin]

On 9/9/2017 at 3:15 PM, johnar said:

Given the generally unpleaseable audience ENT faced, I believe it did very well establishing itself in seasons 1 and 2.

Oh, hell yes.  From bitching about ship design to protesting the opening theme song (with picket signs in front of Paramount, no less) there were fans who hated this show from the get-go.  I saw so much venom on (unmoderated) message boards it was unbelievable.  And a lot of them did their absolute best to troll, pester and just downright poison every discussion they could.  If you hate a show so much, don't watch and STFU; the pleasure they got from being miserable was and is beyond me.  The only thing I can take away from all of this is that if you enjoy being a sodding troll, you're a sad waste of DNA.

BUT ... I came to kvetch myself.  Space here in Canada is running all of the Treks (I suspect buying the rights to all 4 series was part and parcel of the deal they made so that they could air Discovery -- not that I'm complaining) and Enterprise is of course one of those.

I just finished re-watching Harbinger and can I just say how much I hate, hate hate the Trip/T'Pol 'ship?  Not the concept, per se, but the depiction.  She treats the poor guy like crap. 

If the roles reversed and he treated her like she treated him ("Thanks.  I always wanted to fuck a Vulcan. Now I know what it's like. See ya." [paraphrased from her dialogue from the episode]) can you imagine the outrage? You'd hear the screams from here to Vulcan, and the fans would be right to do so, because anyone who carries on like that is a swine and a cad. (And women can be swinish cads, too -- it's called being human.)

So why was it all right for her to behave that way?  I'm a feminist and the argument that this was a "feminist" take on a relationship (which I've heard from Trip/T'Pol fans) falls flat on its metaphorical face.

She's just a bitch.  And I like Vulcans in general, but I wanted to punch her in her smug, supercilious face.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Pippin
Because proofreading is a valuable skill and one I should use.

[readster]

Yes, I watched Enterprise from day 1 and as a fan of the series since I was a lad of 2, I liked the call back. Even the concept, but there were problems with the writing, T'Pol/Trip relationship was one, but man Terra Firma ending gets me every time. The Temper Cold War while having a good conclusion, just felt drawn out. The build up of multiple episodes as one big story, actually worked very well. However, the Vulcans just came across too much as assholes, which started with DS9. Something about the current rebooted movies. I felt they found a way to keep the logic but reserve of emotions better than how they did with Vulcan in this series. Of course I take that more with Leonard Nimoy guiding Zachary Quintno when Star Trek launched in 2009. Plus, that JJ Abrams kept that respect and had other problems, but that isn't for here. Though I did like the fact that Beyond took the terrain uniforms from Enterprise, as I did like that out and about military look. 

[Pippin]

A note about the Enterprise uniforms -- I had the pleasure of meeting the costume designer during a set visit (during the filming of Damage) and learned that they were based on NASA jumpsuits.  Which I thought was logical (pardon the pun).

Vulcans were a little racist in the original series -- remember T'Pau to Spock:  "Art thou Vulcan or art thou human?" (said with contempt).  Guess she's still ticked about Archer getting to carry Surak's katra.  And in the JJ Abrams movie, they were downright cruel to Spock.  Bullying him as a kid (no logical reason for that) and being condescending to him hen accepting him to the Science Academy.  And of course, in Discovery we learn that they forced Sarek to make a Sophie's choice concerning Burnham vs. Spock.  (Which explains why Sarek was so pissed about Spock choosing Starfleet).

None of their attitudes are really logical -- expecting other species to behave like they do is like expecting a cat to bark.  And their pride about strength and endurance has nothing to do with anything they're responsible for -- it was their environment which shaped those physical attributes.  It's like a fish being contemptuous of a bird for not being able to breathe underwater.

In a lot of ways, their attitude reminds me of the British Victorian attitudes towards their colonies in India and Africa -- "the White Man's burden".  Poor superior Vulcans trying to educate and uplift these other backward races.  Which does not sit well with anyone; hence their managing to piss others off instead of helping them.

And their pride in suppressing emotion is nonsensical -- it's a drastic way to deal with themselves and they might look to other species who have managed to integrate all aspects of their psyches and survive -- and thrive! -- without having to amputate a vital part of themselves. 

That said -- I wish T'Pol had been written better, (did they really need to make her a drug addict, fer crying out loud?) and I hated the damn catsuit they made her wear, just to satisfy the baser urges of the producers and a segment of the fanbase.

[johnar]

Thought Berman and Braga are geniuses. Still do. Give the Orville a try and see.

[Pippin]

Oh, I like The Orville, much to my surprise, because I generally find Seth McFarlane's stuff to be massively unfunny.  Most of the stories I've seen on that show I would call Trek lite. 

I give Bermaga major points for concept and casting of Enterprise.  But there was no good reason for the damn catsuit, none whatsoever, just like on Next Gen there was none for the outfits they stuck Troi in.  I'm sure they would have found a reason for Beverly to slink around in a catsuit if they could have.  I never watched Voyager, but 7 of 9's outfit...  sweet Jesus.   As for DS9, (which Bermaga was not apparently very much involved with) Kira at least wore the same outfit as all the other Bajoran officers although I always objected to the heels.  This all goes to show, IMO, a pattern of objectifying the female leads on Bermaga's part.

But the writing around the Trip/T'Pol relationship was on an adolescent level, to be kind.  They were lucky to have talented actors who were able to take substandard material and elevate it to (barely watchable).   I always maintained that once Manny Coto and Co. took over the writing the show improved immeasurably.

[Maverick]

Troi's outfits weren't that bad (other than that grey monstrosity she wore the first season). She was the counselor so it made sense for her to have non-uniform attire (although Jellico was correct it was inappropriate for her to wear it on duty).  None of them were overly sexual. If anything, the uniforms she and Crusher wore were the most revealing given how form-fitting they were.  

 On DS9, Kira's uniform changed several times over the years.  In the final season she got a one piece catsuit as well, although reportedly it was at Nana Visitor's request and not producer driven.

 Once Trek moved to UPN, that's when we got Seven of Nine and T'pol's inappropriate wardrobe. The network thought it would entice young males to watch.  Characterization be damned, since it totally makes sense a former Borg with no experience with humanity and an emotionally repressed Vulcan would totally dress like a sexy space vamp.  

[Sandman]

I think the casting of the show was part of the problem, honestly. The writing may have been a bigger one, as it focused almost exclusively on Archer, T'Pol and Tucker, and everyone else was underdeveloped. Mayweather's just sort of ... there. Anthony Montgomery is likeable in the role, but is rather bland, and not given much to do.

But Dominic Keating took a character that on paper was a dry, one-note nerd, and made him deeply and thoroughly unpleasant. Really, is there another character in the entire franchise so thin-skinned, insecure and downright bitchy? I'm still in the (endless) third season, and I begin to think having Lieutenant Reed as Security Chief is meant to be a pun. 

Were he and MACO Major Rex Van De Kamp supposed to have that much FoeYay? I kept waiting for them to kiss. Archer should have busted them both down to ensign for their schoolyard fighting (... -slash-sublimated sexytimes).

ETA: As for T'Pol and Trip, I had the impression that Trip, though stung by T'Pol's "justalittleexperiment,'kthxbyee!", wasn't really fooled by it. I kind of enjoyed their each throwing the other's words back and forth, adolescent as it was; it was still preferable to watching Reed and Major Rex carrying on in "Harbinger."

Edited September 15, 2018 by Sandman
"Harbinger"! That's the episode name.

[Lebanna]

So true. I could never work out what the point of Reed was because he was so unlikable. And then absolutely, in season 3 I thought, ok he's going to come out, get it on with the MACO and find himself and we'll realize that he's just been hiding his true self behind a million walls (Julian Bashir style) because of his horrible traditional family - but no.

So depressing. The worst British character ever in Star Trek. We get way too much representation in this universe anyway compared to the rest of the world, but this one was just so stereotypical it was almost racist and frankly, complete and utter pants.

Although I don't think it was the actor at all, it was definitely the writers. They gave him those awful parents and horrible Royal Navy background and wrote him as ridiculously stuffy and it was doomed from then on.

[Sandman]

Hee! Your post just conjured an image in my head:

Capt. Picard goes to replicator in his Ready Room, orders "tea: Earl Grey, hot." Pitches it at Lieut. (j.g.) Reed. Walks away, muttering "... mad as pants!"

Edited September 16, 2018 by Sandman
Also, Malcolm, Maj. Rex is going to cry later.

[legaleagle53]

4 hours ago, Sandman said:

Hee! Your post just conjured an image in my head:

Capt. Picard goes to replicator in his Ready Room, orders "tea: Earl Grey, hot." Pitches it at Lieut. (j.g.) Reed. Walks away, muttering "... mad as pants!"

 

Which would be a bit difficult since they live more than two centuries apart, unless you think Picard borrowed Riker's holodeck simulation.

Edited September 16, 2018 by legaleagle53

[Sandman]

11 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Which would be a bit difficult since they live more than two centuries apart, unless you think Picard borrowed Riker's holodeck simulation.

I didn't say the most logical part of my brain came up with this little vignette; but even so, Picard has managed to meet the fabled Kirk. I'm sure if he had a mind to dash a hot cuppa into Reed's sour puss, he would find a way to make it so.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Sandman

[Maverick]

 With this latest cycle on H&I, I decided to try a rewatch not having seen the show since it's original run.  It's been a challenge to say the least.  While H&I is currently in season 4, I'm currently somewhere in the middle of season 2.   TIVO is trying to delete episodes.  

 Reed is unlikable to be sure (I mean even his own family is disinterested in him) but he's far from the biggest problem.  I was really taken aback by Archer and Tucker in the pilot.  I know Archer wasn't widely liked but I also recall people loving Trip and how outraged they were when he was killed in the finale.  They're both simply awful to T'Pol in the pilot but Trip is even worse than Archer.  They'e in utter glee that she finds the scent on humans so, mock her about having to smell the captain's dog and just generally act like steps below rapey frat dudes.  Archer at least had some rationale for his dislike of Vulcans with the father backstory and he actually get s a little better as the show goes on.  But Trip just remains this stereotypical cornbread yokel that bros down with Archer and Reed and continues to act like an ass to T'Pol.  The whole tone of the show feels like it's written by a bunch of frat boys; T'Pol is cold and standoffish so shes a bitch who needs to loosen up and hang with the jocks.  Hoshi is a meek little thing afraid of everything from transporters to the direction the stars are going...until Reed teaches her how to shoot then she starts to gain confidence.  Pholx is the oddball guy that mainly interacts with T'Pol and Hoshi = the nerdy guy that the jocks tolerate because he gives them answers to the test sometimes.  Mayweather just kinda tags along with Archer/Reed/Tucker sometimes.  

 The casting had issues, but the writing was worse.  All the recycled plots, all the contortions to bring races that don't belong.  And then there was "A Night in Sickbay'.   What in the bluediddly fuck was that?   I want to know what the hell they were on when they wrote that one.   For someone who was supposed to be an explorer and a trained diplomat, Archer acted like a 10 year spoiled brat.    Starfleet should have confined him to a desk job for that at best or really drummed him out of the service.  How the Federation was ever formed by someonne who acted like that is incomprehensible.  

[BigBeagle]

16 hours ago, Maverick said:

 The casting had issues, but the writing was worse.  All the recycled plots, all the contortions to bring races that don't belong.  And then there was "A Night in Sickbay'.   What in the bluediddly fuck was that?

Preach it! Season 2 of Enterprise was pretty good in spots, but almost unwatchable in others. Scott Bakula is one of my favorite TV actors, but I almost gave up on the guy during this season (he redeems himself pretty well in Season 3, though). The problem, I believe, wasn't with Bakula but with the gawd-awful writings in places. You've mentioned "A Night in Sickbay," and I never will defend that mess, but at least it was a hot mess, compared to the lifeless whatever that was "Precious Cargo," which is my least-favorite ENT episode. What made these horrible episodes so especially frustrating was that Season 2 also had some really good episodes, like "Dead Stop" and "Cogenitor," so it wasn't as if the writing staff was simply unable to put out quality episodes. I guess they figured, "hey, it's Trek ... those morons will watch anything."

[Sandman]

Poor T'Pol -- hooked on a feeling.

[MisterGlass]

I haven't made it to Discovery yet, and thought I should give this show another try first.  I didn't watch many episodes from the original run.  Having seen it now, I think the acting wasn't always the best, the writing and development of the female characters could have been better, and some of the plots were better left to TOS.  I had trouble connecting with the characters, though I came to like Archer, Phlox, Trip, and T'Pol over time.

While it's a mixed bag, it's a better series than I thought it would be.  They put a lot of thought into making the set design and the technology look like it fit between ST:First Contact and TOS.  They also did some nice work stitching together the background of the Federation by building it out of a lot of small moments.

The Andorians were a nice addition.  Jeffrey Combs was good as Shran.  He managed to be hot headed but likeable.  I loved the way that the antennae were used to accent the character's emotions.  In some ways he was a more developed character than a lot of the main cast.  Even Soval had more personality than Reed and Mayweather.

Looking back I think the Andorian episodes were the best, with "Carbon Creek" and "Cogenitor" also up there.

[Sandman]

On 10/5/2018 at 11:22 PM, MisterGlass said:

Even Soval had more personality than Reed and Mayweather.

This isn't an especially high bar to clear, though, even given that the single adjective "grumpy" would appear adequate to delineate the entirety of the ambassador's personality.

Poor Trip! It's like the old saying on Vulcan goes: "T'vesh ka' shkoyua avelet," or, roughly, "Damn, boy! Your future mother-in-law is a stone-cold hardass."

Edited October 15, 2018 by Sandman
No, not really.

[friendperidot]

Recently, the series started over, again, on H&I. For some reason, to me, it stands out that when Archer has to communicate with another species or even when he was answering the 4th graders letters, he sounds like he's reading his responses or his greetings. I like Scott Bakula, I loved him in Quantum Leap, I liked him in many small roles he's had all over tv, I like him on NCIS New Orleans even though I've quit watching a couple of years ago. I've cut out almost all network tv since 2 years ago, only holdovers are Dancing With the Stars, Big Bang Theory & now Murphy Brown. I've watched Young Sheldon, but I'm about ready to quit it and it's the last season for BBT, so network tv viewing is becoming even less in the next year. I'm not sure if it was an acting choice or bad writing, but I can barely tolerate watching him at times. I may be about ready to end Star Trek on H&I too. It's been a couple of years, it might be time to put them on hiatus.

[Sandman]

From "Bound," on why Trip might be resistant to the green Orion Slave Girls' pheromone-whammy:

T'Pol: There's a long-held belief that when a Vulcan mates, there's a shared psychic bond.

Trip: We didn't "mate."

T'Pol: Uh-huh.

I would never have guessed that of all the characters on this show, T'Pol would be the one to make me snorfle with laughter.

ETA: I've enjoyed the show more and more as the fourth season has continued. (I'm putting off watching "These Are the Voyages..." because of the comments I've read about the final episode, here and elsewhere, but also because I'm not ready to leave the show yet. I thought "Demons" and "Terra Prime" were enjoyable episodes, although I did find the creation of little Elizabeth was something of a plothole. Nothing like purposely going to the trouble of surreptitiously creating a Vulcan-Human cloned hybrid who's as cute as the pointy-eared dickens to make people fear the dangers of interspecies collaboration! ("Wait, why are we listening to Evil Peter Weller, again? And why are we living on the moon?!")

Peter Weller's just the go-to evil crazypants hypocrite of the ST multiverse, ain't he?

Also also: did anyone else think the background music in the scene where Trip escapes his captors and starts looking for a way out of the complex sounded less like typical ST music cues and more like the Seventies schlock-glories of Space 1999? A little Moonbase Alpha mood music?

Edited November 13, 2018 by Sandman

[friendperidot]

Last night's episode was the one that was vaguely the Dennis Quaid/Lou Gossett Jr movie, Enemy Mine. I haven't looked up the title and episode no. It's 6AM and I don't care, I'll be going back to sleep as soon as I let the dog in. But B Trip annoyed me so much with his speaking loudly and s-l-o-w-l-y so the alien could understand him in English. That always annoys me, no matter the show, the movie or in real life, not going to help.

[MisterGlass]

On 11/10/2018 at 8:23 PM, Sandman said:

ETA: I've enjoyed the show more and more as the fourth season has continued. (I'm putting off watching "These Are the Voyages..." because of the comments I've read about the final episode, here and elsewhere, but also because I'm not ready to leave the show yet.

It was headed in a really interesting direction with the build up to the Federation and the Federation-Romulan War.  I would like to have seen more of that.

"These Are the Voyages..." is not so good.  On paper, I'm sure the concept sounded like a good idea.  It might have worked if executed differently, with different guest characters.  Instead, I think it combines the worst aspects of both flashbacks and flashforwards.

[Sandman]

On ‎2018‎-‎11‎-‎16 at 8:24 PM, MisterGlass said:

It might have worked if executed differently, with different guest characters.  Instead, I think it combines the worst aspects of both flashbacks and flashforwards.

So far, I think it might have worked better, if not entirely, if the shows had been on concurrently. I don't think it's the choice of guest characters that's the problem -- I think it's the way the TNG crowd is nominally the frame story, but the primary characters of Enterprise appear to be oddly pushed out of the foreground. Rather than having an eye-witness view of world-changing, canon-establishing events, we have the vantage point of looking over other characters' shoulders as they observe what is now history. We don't experience it along with the crew of the very first Enterprise, because it's already over before the finale begins. We're at two removes, rather than one. We experience it as a side-effect of Riker's need to work out some personal issue of his own -- which in itself doesn't really matter, because his show's been off the air for even longer. The regular cast is arguably not even these characters, but speculative representations of their characters, after the fact. (Hey, it's fanfic, and Riker is the Mary T. Sue.) Plus, holodeck stuff always makes me laugh, since an early episode of TNG made its huffy little point about how 20th-century people were inexplicably hooked on television.

Also: Reed as the exemplar of a larger-than-life character? Reed? Bwahahahahahaha! No.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Sandman

[blueray]

I watched about half of these are the voyages and turned it off. It is by far the worst episode of the whole franchise (actually was voted by the fans).  The episode isn't even about the main characters instead focuses on Riker and Troi. It should have never been made, and I read somewhere that people that have worked on it have regretted making it.  I consider the two parter (Demons" and "Terra Prime") the series final and like to pretend that garbage episode isn't there.

[starri]

I think my biggest regret is how much squandered potential there was.  Season 4 was essentially the show they should have been making for the start, but it was too late by then.

And I do honestly think the Xindi arc was great, although it should only have gone for 13 episodes, not the full season.

[frenchtoast]

6 hours ago, starri said:

And I do honestly think the Xindi arc was great, although it should only have gone for 13 episodes, not the full season.

Yes, a bit shortened would have really cut the fat on that season. But there were some real gems in there, too. (I'll never forget sitting in the theater getting ready to watch Star Trek Beyond and Simon Pegg came on to do that PSA of how many people worked on the film and thank you for seeing it in the theaters. He was wearing a t-shirt with a MACO insignia and I was impressed. And then I saw the movie and I was very impressed.)

I liked a lot of Season 4, too, though the Vulcan arc was a bit meh for me. The short arcs were a perfect format, and allowed to tell a full story without having to stretch too much or cut too much.

[MisterGlass]

On 11/28/2018 at 3:55 PM, Sandman said:

The regular cast is arguably not even these characters, but speculative representations of their characters, after the fact. (Hey, it's fanfic, and Riker is the Mary T. Sue.)

In a way I think that's the case, but they aren't explicit enough about it if it is meant to be just a programmer's fantasy.  It's like they were trying to make the finale something that could be disavowed as non-canon, but didn't carry the premise through.  They could have had some fun with that idea, with out of character moments or over the top theatricality, and left the real story up to the imaginations of the viewers.

5 hours ago, frenchtoast said:

The short arcs were a perfect format, and allowed to tell a full story without having to stretch too much or cut too much.

They really were.  It's a good medium between the completely serialized shows and the mystery of the week shows.

[starri]

Their biggest problem was not understanding how the way stories are told on TV had changed by 2001.  And also insisting on a 26 episode season the first two years and 24 the third.  That's just going to lead to an insane amount of filler.  I don't know if if Star Trek needs to be heavily serialized--even Disco had a stand-alone or two--but of the genre stuff that was on the air at the time (Buffy, Angel, Farscape, etc) even with stand-alone episodes liberally sprinkled throughout, each of their seasons had an overall arc.

I haven't revisited Enterprise nearly as much as I have the other series.  What has surprised me when I have is a few things.  First, I was really surprised how much more I liked T'Pol.  She actually had the same problem as Seven; an interesting character put forward as the show's set of boobs.  Jolene Blalock is not as capable an actress as Jeri Ryan, but she acquits herself fine.  Secondly, while the bad parts are about has bad as I remembered, the good parts are actually better.  "Countdown" and "Zero Hour" make for an exciting, satisfying conclusion to the Xindi story, which I didn't really register at the time.

But the big realization was that Scott Bakula was a colossal misfire.  On paper, he makes sense:  he's a likable, charismatic performer.  But I can't entirely blame the writing, because in most of the series stronger episodes, he's still the part that doesn't quite gel, and he's godawful in the bad ones.  It says something that his best episode (and of course, the series' best) "Twilight" has him basically playing Sam Beckett in the first two acts of Quantum Leap the entire episode.

I'll give Braga a lot of credit for now being able to admit that they'd fucked it up.  And that's the pity; the show had a lot of potential and they wasted almost all of it.

[friendperidot]

On 12/2/2018 at 6:00 AM, starri said:

But the big realization was that Scott Bakula was a colossal misfire.  On paper, he makes sense:  he's a likable, charismatic performer.  But I can't entirely blame the writing, because in most of the series stronger episodes, he's still the part that doesn't quite gel, and he's godawful in the bad ones. 

I agree with you, I love Scott Bakula in many things, but he is horrible on this show, many times it's like he's reading out loud, it's not a good fit for him.

But, what is Disco? Besides snappy dance music with a sparkly ball/light?

Now, for my thought on watching tonight on H&I, Chosen Realm, S3,E12, I especially dislike this episode, but I heard a line tonight that made me snort my tea out. One of the zealots that take over the ship was explaining to Archer why they were fighting another group, something like, "we believe the creators made the spheres in 9 days, they believe in 10." I just thought of Jonathan Swift's Gulliver Travels where the war between Lilliput and Brobdingnag is over which end of the egg to crack. So many wars and so many people die because of equally stupid things. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by friendperidot

[MisterGlass]

On 12/15/2018 at 1:10 AM, friendperidot said:

many times it's like he's reading out loud, it's not a good fit for him

I thought that might have been a choice to be Kirk-esque.  Not a good choice, but deliberate.

[paulvdb]

On 15-12-2018 at 7:10 AM, friendperidot said:

But, what is Disco? Besides snappy dance music with a sparkly ball/light?

Disco is short for Discovery

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, paulvdb said:

Disco is short for Discovery

Really?  I thought we called it STD around here!

[Sandman]

On ‎2018‎-‎12‎-‎01 at 10:55 PM, MisterGlass said:

In a way I think that's the case, but they aren't explicit enough about it if it is meant to be just a programmer's fantasy. 

I'm not sure if they meant to be more explicit about the programmer's fantasy aspect -- maybe it wasn't intended at all, and I'm just feeling resentful about experiencing the final moments of the series though the filter of Riker's experience -- and about Riker's being the one everyone else confides in. Maybe I would even feel different about it, if that had been a function we'd actually seen for a Chef character prior to this episode. (Except the character could well have been some Kah'less-forsaken Neelix/Guinan-like ... personage.)

I did like the implication that the end of the episode left me with (optimistic? Me?), that the famous "to boldly go" line -- or maybe even the whole "Space: the final frontier" narration -- was perhaps drawn from Archer's historic speech, and that all the later captains' narrations have in effect been quoting him all these years. History by way of retcon? Maybe. And yet, I don't mind.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Sandman

[Sandman]

On 12/17/2018 at 8:30 AM, legaleagle53 said:

Really?  I thought we called it STD around here!

Ew. And yet, it seems somehow appropriate.