S05.E09: What We Leave Behind

[calliope1975]

13 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

She deserves so much better than this Oliver.

I'd like to think there's an Earth 37 or whatever Oliver out there who's been through much of what our Oliver's dealt with but has learned and grown and is perfect for Felicity. Make it happen, Barry! 

[BkWurm1]

26 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I hated the selfishness of that move.  He's upset so he goes to the nearest woman he can find to make himself feel better.  It's really All About Oliver instead of Felicity or how the Team is going to react to what Evelyn's done.  I guess he'll let Diggle take care of their feelings.  Oops.

What makes it worse is that Felicity said it wasn't his fault. She could put aside her feelings and empathize with him while he's selfishly fixated on himself.  She deserves so much better than this Oliver.

It's not that I completely disagree, it's just that I'm not sure if beyond showing Oliver watching Felicity receiving comfort, he'd have any reason to stick around and Oliver isn't great with sitting around or doing nothing so yeah, I don't love that he went to cry on someone's shoulder but I guess I also don't begrudge it.  I found him opening up to her about his life as the hood (in code of course) in 507 worse than what happened tonight.  It made no sense for him to get her advice when she barely knows him on a matter she barely could understand.  But this wasn't anything more than a superficial explanation for why he felt like crap and yeah, he wanted to feel better.  

He was thinking about himself, but I'm not sure he could have helped anyone by brooding alone, so since he couldn't help Felicity IMO, I don't mind that he tried to help himself, if that makes sense?  

What you said about Oliver not helping the team to react is true though.  It's really part of the disconnect this year.  Felicity was Oliver's translator IMO to the rest of the team.  In the early episodes this year she was still doing that but now it's like Oliver has distanced himself from the day to day interaction and only comes in for action and occasional talks.  

That said the very last thing I wanted at that part was to waste time with the Noobs and what they thought.  Don't care.  Lol.  

Edited December 8, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Artsda]

Can they not just keep Laurel off. Ugh.

[wonderwall]

22 minutes ago, anamika said:

Yes Laurel!! Welcome back! Heard Arrow is becoming a decently written show again with minimal Olishitty/Felicity nonsense - may have to catch up to early episodes.

 I don't mind Black Siren either. I enjoyed her on the Flash.

I hope you do take your time to catch up!

Olicity is most certainly dead and Laurel is back for good. 

[Last Time Lord]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah I don't think it's Clayborne's son. I think given the apparent massive amount of knowledge this person has  and for it to have emotional impact IMO it has to be someone other than Clayborne's son.  The son is a red herring IMO

Still going all in on my "Prometheus is a Flashpoint'd Roy" theory

[BkWurm1]

1 minute ago, wonderwall said:

I hope you do take your time to catch up!

Olicity is most certainly dead and Laurel is back for good. 

I'm glad I came to my senses and realized how awesome Laurel has always been.  I've been so blind.  

Just now, Last Time Lord said:

Still going all in on my "Prometheus is a Flashpoint'd Roy" theory

How would Flashpoint Roy know about Clayborne?  Not dismissing your theory completely because I felt like there was a subtle Roy shout out when MadDong was dreaming if there could be a world where a guy like him would have dated Thea.  

[wonderwall]

Just now, BkWurm1 said:

I'm glad I came to my senses and realized how awesome Laurel has always been.  I've been so blind.  

RIGHT?!

God and who actually knew that Olicity was the only thing ruining this show? Now that it's dead and buried, the show is back to being perfect. 

[lemotomato]

28 minutes ago, anamika said:

Yes Laurel!! Welcome back! Heard Arrow is becoming a decently written show again with minimal Olishitty/Felicity nonsense - may have to catch up to early episodes.

 I don't mind Black Siren either. I enjoyed her on the Flash.

Oh, you should totally catch up. Felicity is hardly in this season at all. You'll love it!

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

RIGHT?!

God and who actually knew that Olicity was the only thing ruining this show? Now that it's dead and buried, the show is back to being perfect. 

I totally agree with both of you. Now that the bitch (with wifi) Felicity is out of Oliver's life, he can pursue any woman that he wants, including Laurel! Back to those comic roots!!

Edited December 8, 2016 by Lady Calypso
exclamations are important to showcase my enthusiasm!

[Chaser]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm glad I came to my senses and realized how awesome Laurel has always been.  I've been so blind.  

Understandable. You were blinded by the rings. 

[BkWurm1]

Just now, wonderwall said:

RIGHT?!

God and who actually knew that Olicity was the only thing ruining this show? Now that it's dead and buried, the show is back to being perfect. 

And Oliver sleeping with the reporter that is secretly sitting on the story of him in the Bratva is a fantastic idea too.  Thea has no idea what she was talking about.  Oh and I just adore Mad Dog too.  

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

I totally agree with both of you. Now that the bitch (with wifi) Felicity is out of Oliver's life, he can pursue any woman that he wants, including Laurel. Back to those comic roots.

I don't give a damn about the comics, but Oliver/Laurel were definitely meant to be even on this show. Truly an iconic pair. 

[BkWurm1]

Just now, Chaser said:

Understandable. You were blinded by the rings. 

That must be it!!

[wonderwall]

Just now, Chaser said:

Understandable. You were blinded by the rings. 

And the buckles. Don't forget the buckles.

[BkWurm1]

Just now, wonderwall said:

I don't give a damn about the comics, but Oliver/Laurel were definitely meant to be even on this show. Truly an iconic pair. 

It's all sooooo clear now!

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

And Oliver sleeping with the reporter that is secretly sitting on the story of him in the Bratva is a fantastic idea too.  Thea has no idea what she was talking about.  Oh and I just adore Mad Dog too.  

Dumbass Oliver is the best kind of Oliver :')

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Dumbass Oliver is the best kind of Oliver :')

Sigh, seriously though, if only we'd have the chance to compare and contrast just to be sure. But all we get is the one kind.   :(  

Edited December 8, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Last Time Lord]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

How would Flashpoint Roy know about Clayborne?  Not dismissing your theory completely because I felt like there was a subtle Roy shout out when MadDong was dreaming if there could be a world where a guy like him would have dated Thea.  

Can't really answer the first part, but Prometheus doing the same running jumping flip that Roy frequently did as Arsenal did catch my eye. Pretty sure Prometheus did it in past episodes, too.

Also, could it be possible that the whole Clayborne stuff only happened in the Flashpoint timeline, which is why we, the audience knew nothing about it?

[wonderwall]

3 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Sigh, seriously though, if only we'd have the chance to compare and contrast just to be sure. But all we get is the one kind.   :(  

I don't think it's possible to see a smart Oliver on this show anymore. He was smart-ish in season 1 but that's about it. He was kinda dumb in season 2 and it only went down from there. 

I've come to accept that Oliver will never stop making horrible decisions when he's at a low point and emotional just like how Felicity won't stop hitting below the belt when she's upset/emotional...

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Last Time Lord said:

Can't really answer the first part, but Prometheus doing the same running jumping flip that Roy frequently did as Arsenal did catch my eye. Pretty sure Prometheus did it in past episodes, too.

Also, could it be possible that the whole Clayborne stuff only happened in the Flashpoint timeline, which is why we, the audience knew nothing about it?

A good example of why freaking Flashpoint annoys me.  I should be able to say what happened and didn't happen on this show and RealRoy never would be Prometheus, but with Flashpoint I can't totally rule it out.  Seems a stretch though right now.  

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

*ahem*  You guys can't see or hear me, but I'm making a Marge noise at some of you right now.  

Please look at your posts and consider whether your tone is really in the spirit of "being nice to each other."   

With love from your Nagging Mod

[BkWurm1]

Since they implied that Prometheus had been trained in the past (cue flashback) by 

Spoiler

Talia

I wonder if this person will also show up in the present.  

Oh and anyone think this was the last we'll see of Paul?  

[statsgirl]

I think Curtis and Paul will be back together before Oliver finishes banging other women.  And then Oliver can martyr himself some more when he realizes everyone can have relationships but him.

Two comments from slanderent I liked:

Quote

slander_ent ‏@slanderent 5h5 hours ago

Oliver: Everyone close to me dies. Oliver proceeds to go to Reporter Lady. #Arrow #dembows

Quote

slander_ent ‏@slanderent 5h5 hours ago

So #Olicity is magic! Pretty sure that's what they're trying to tell us. #Arrow #dembows

 

59 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

It's not that I completely disagree, it's just that I'm not sure if beyond showing Oliver watching Felicity receiving comfort, he'd have any reason to stick around and Oliver isn't great with sitting around or doing nothing [snip]

He was thinking about himself, but I'm not sure he could have helped anyone by brooding alone, so since he couldn't help Felicity IMO, I don't mind that he tried to help himself, if that makes sense? 

I understand that with the montage they are trying to go for Oliver's self-pitying "everyone who is around me gets hurt".  But the combination of 'only Oliver gets hugs because his pain matters while Felicity is left in the cold' + 'Oliver goes to dubious reporter for sympathy & sex to make himself feel better while Felicity cries alone' + 'Laurel shows up for Oliver' really makes Oliver seem like an awful, skanky person.

They wanted to tease Olicity while keeping Oliver away from Felicity and ended up misfiring badly. You can't have both.

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Its not Tommy, they told you who it was, Clayborne's son

They told you who they think it is and whoever it is seems like they would be Clayborne's son, given the fixation with Clayborne's death, but there's no proof positive yet.

[looptab]

I am not caught up with the thread yet, but here's my 2 cents after watching..

Oliver killing Billy was twisted AF! That scene with the reporter was all kinds of cringeworthy, and probably for  the first time I can't manage to empathize with Oliver. 'I didn't know where to go'..how about you stay and comfort your ex fiancee/friend? I don't like the Oliver they are writing, and I don't like it-he's one of my  favorite.

Antonio Negret is like the second greatest shipper. *O/S kiss* -'AAAND CUT!CUT CUT!'

I strangely liked Wild Dong in this, and I wasn't expecting the  Diggle twist. Don't care about Curtis. The Olicity flashback was cute, even though it had 'breadcrumb because we're going to make  Oliver and the reporter hook up' written all over it. Rory is still the best.

I did like the episode. That sequence where past and present intermingled was awesome. I just wish they avoided some stupidity.

P.S.That cliffhanger.. any of you guys need hats to eat? :p

[wonderwall]

5 minutes ago, looptab said:

Oliver killing Billy was twisted AF! That scene with the reporter was all kinds of cringeworthy, and probably for  the first time I can't manage to empathize with Oliver. 'I didn't know where to go'..how about you stay and comfort your ex fiancee/friend? I don't like the Oliver they are writing, and I don't like it-he's one of my  favorite.

 

Idk I get why Oliver didn't comfort Felicity. He's her ex-fiance who killed her boyfriend. It would've been highly inappropriate if he tried to comfort her. 

I still hate that he went to the reporter - but I get why he couldn't comfort Felicity.

Edited December 8, 2016 by wonderwall

[wonderwall]

Also I get why he didn't know where to go... He feels as though everything he touches dies and thinks that all of his loved ones should just leave him (total rehash of season 2 btw)... So that's why he couldn't stay in the bunker, why he couldn't be with Thea... So where does he go? He goes to someone he doesn't really love...

Still. I would've preferred if he just went to a bar had a couple of drinks and called it a night and went to bed. 

[lemotomato]

6 minutes ago, looptab said:

Antonio Negret is like the second greatest shipper. *O/S kiss* -'AAAND CUT!CUT CUT!'

lol, yes. Thank goodness for Antonio. 

I didn't hate the episode as a whole. The action scenes were great, as were the direction and editing except for the last shot of the bunker where I thought there should've been a more equal distribution of people comforting Felicity and Oliver. That last 45 seconds, though... ugh. Just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth, and is a total letdown for a MSF ending. 

[looptab]

2 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Also I get why he didn't know where to go... He feels as though everything he touches dies and thinks that all of his loved ones should just leave him (total rehash of season 2 btw)... So that's why he couldn't stay in the bunker, why he couldn't be with Thea... So where does he go? He goes to someone he doesn't really love...

Still. I would've preferred if he just went to a bar had a couple of drinks and called it a night and went to bed. 

Yeah, I kinda get that too, rationally. But I'd have preferred he went somewhere else, too. I guess I'm just tired of him escaping, and him going to her is soo S1. It went the exact same way of his hook-ups with Helena and Mckenna and Sara.

[insomniadreams88]

I think it's a combination of Oliver going to the reporter and talking to her and everyone comforting him in the lair and Felicity alone at the loft. 

If they wanted Felicity to want to be alone, they could've had her walk off in the lair saying that. Instead, it just looks like she's left alone to grieve and everyone cares more about Oliver's pain. I didn't even want Oliver with her at the loft. (Why not Thea? Even Rory maybe? I get Curtis was off losing his husband.)

But why not have Oliver talking to Diggle in the lair, then Diggle leaves and gets the call? Or have Oliver alone in the lair? Then have Oliver hear the elevator, look up and Laurel steps off?

[statsgirl]

6 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

That last 45 seconds, though... ugh. Just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth, and is a total letdown for a MSF ending. 

The last 45 seconds is what's supposed to get you excited and panting for the return of the show.

Right now the return of Laurel is like a 2 on the surprise meter.  I hope they enjoy all the Laurel fans who will be back.

4 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I think it's a combination of Oliver going to the reporter and talking to her and everyone comforting him in the lair and Felicity alone at the loft.

It's a real statement about who they think is important to this show.  AK's interviews that the show found its footing when Felicity joined the in the lair is as much a lie as MG's swearing they will not step back the s4 death.

[lemotomato]

14 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The last 45 seconds is what's supposed to get you excited and panting for the return of the show.

For the show's sake, I'm going to concentrate on the 44 minutes before it. 

I said before the MSF that I just needed them NOT to give me a reason NOT to come back. The last 45 seconds makes it a toss up decision. 

[wonderwall]

Welp... LOL

[looptab]

You know what, with Oliver and Susan, and Mayo now dead..this episode was actually a good set-up for Raglicity. I can't complain. :D

[Mellowyellow]

19 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Welp... LOL

Huh? oooh what is this about?

[patchwork]

Well he'd know the writing intention better than we do but the on screen implication was definitely that Oliver slept with the reporter.

I've reached my limit with Wild Dog, he just has to be there for me to find him annoying. I wanted to like Evelyn I really did but unfortunately the actress is kinda weak and she's been landed with the It Makes No Sense storyline that Arrow has at least one of every year. She's disapproves of Oliver's Hood murdering ways so becomes the sidekick of the guy currently murdering people?

Yeah okay.

[apinknightmare]

40 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Huh? oooh what is this about?

He's saying that Oliver didn't sleep with the reporter in this episode.

Edited December 8, 2016 by apinknightmare

[bijoux]

So they really are retreading the Isabel thing with Susan? Although, that bottle of Russian vodka along with the tease of Prometheus doing a flip that Oliver saw a Russian lady do is curious. Is Susan actually Prometheus or just linked to him? I know he's supposed to be the skeezy dude's son, but maybe it's a clerical error or there's a sex change surery involved. I'm still not sold that it is the son, actually. From what I gathered, the dude didn't have contact with the kid. If your morally corrupt, estranged father got killed, would you really go on a rampage to revenge him?

I do like Prometheus overall. He's smart and has a level of theatrics that I appreciate, what with recreating the scene of death(s).

I will laugh forever if Dream World Laurel caught a ride with everyone last week. Also, what did she do with Thea? She was supposed ti be staying in the bunker per Oliver. Maybe she's staying with Felicity instead and was getting them booze when we cut to Felicity.

[thegirlsleuth]

I find it unbelievable that Oliver and the reporter didn't have sex.  Stephen likes sports.  Maybe someone should ask him which base Oliver made it to.  

There was a lot to like about this episode.  It was a good reminder how vicious Oliver was in the first season, and the repercussions of killing both in the first season and this season (RIP Billy).  Prometheus is a real threat  in his fighting skills, his tactics, and what we know about his motivation. I liked the conflict between Curtis and Paul, even as I felt that Curtis made a big mistake.

Felicity, as a character, made me sad. The verbal gaffes felt forced and unfunny.The red pen scene felt like tacked on ship bait.  And I was unhappy that they had Diggle hug Oliver but not Felicity when she experienced the loss, and while Oliver conveyed his sorrow about what happened, he made no overt effort to comfort Felicity.  I didn't expect him to take her in his arms, but I did think he would reach out, and she came off as incredibly isolated.  At this point, I wouldn't mind if Felicity went villain, even for half a season. I don't think they will, but Emily was great when she was threatening Malcolm, and maybe it would give Felicity someway to process her grief over Detective Tiny Hands, Havenrock, and her paralysis, albeit in an unhealthy way.

I was not shocked by the ending.  At this point, it would be more shocking if a Lance sister didn't come back from the dead.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I read on twitter MG told someone in DM Oliver slept with the reporter. Make of that what you wish, I didn't see the DM so only reporting what I read.

Oliver could have asked someone to check on Felicity if he was worried about her and didn't feel like checking on her himself, even if not checking on her himself is being a coward and selfish to me. If you really care about someone you put their needs over your own discomfort. I'm pretty sure they are putting them back together but I also think at this point Felicity deserves better.

I really enjoyed the episode as a whole, Prometheus is a great villain and I think that's one of the things you have to nail so kudos for that.

[Mellowyellow]

Just watched it. I really really really hate the b#tchy reporter!!! 

Surprisingly did not mind Wild Dog in this episode! Have they toned him down a little? He's acting like he knows his place now and seems is less of a rude little punk in this ep!

Didn't mind the Laurel reveal. It felt a bit random with all the Prometheus and Oliver hooking up with the reporter drama. Were they hoping for a "GOTCHA" moment? Didn't everyone know she was coming back?

I was starting to warm to Mayo and they kill him! And he seems fond of Felicity. Why can't they just let Felicity be happy? What did she do to deserve crying alone in her apartment while Oliver goes and bangs the reporter? As I type this I am thinking of all these love interests who seem to care about Felicity more than Oliver. Why did they make it look like she still cared about Oliver (all that nervous babbling) at the party when he was clearly over her? I can't think of anything good he has done for her since lying to her about his illegitimate kid and leaving her alone in hospital. Why do I even ship Olicity????? What is wrong with me!!!!????

WTF was up with the Olicity flashback? I like the actors and they have amazing chemistry (maybe this is why I ship) but seriously WTF was that? Why was he kneeling and saying "Felicity" like he was going to propose? I am torn. On one hand they were adorable but on the other that felt like the gratuitous Lauriver flashback in 419 which is sad sad sad! I don't want this sh@t! JUST KILL THE SHIP and let Felicity move on with her life!   

At the end when he was ranting about his manpain to the reporter he got to the bit "doesn't matter how much I love them" and they cut to Felicity. Was this deliberate? More ship bait?

Why is the actor denying that Oliver slept with the reporter? Isn't that what the scene implied? These people give me a headache!

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Why is the actor denying that Oliver slept with the reporter? Isn't that what the scene implied? These people give me a headache!

Someone posted a comment on his Facebook that Oliver sleeping with Susan after he'd just killed Felicity's boyfriend and leaving her all by herself was out of character-and he replied that Oliver didn't sleep with her. He also mentioned them just "smooching" in his Facebook live, but I don't think there was anything to take from that scene but that they slept together. 

Not sure why he's so sure they didn't-unless they do in a later ep and a bigger deal is made of it. 

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

Someone posted a comment on his Facebook that Oliver sleeping with Susan after he'd just killed Felicity's boyfriend and leaving her all by herself was out of character-and he replied that Oliver didn't sleep with her. He also mentioned them just "smooching" in his Facebook live, but I don't think there was anything to take from that scene but that they slept together. 

Not sure why he's so sure they didn't-unless they do in a later ep and a bigger deal is made of it. 

Thanks for clarifying!

Gawd it just gets worse!

[apinknightmare]

15 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I read on twitter MG told someone in DM Oliver slept with the reporter. Make of that what you wish, I didn't see the DM so only reporting what I read.

 

I *think* someone asked him if Oliver and Susan slept together after they got drinks and he said something like "I imagine they did"? But then the way they greeted each other at the Christmas party wasn't the greeting of two people who were having sex. So...these people -as per usual- need to get their stories straight. 

[lemotomato]

24 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

On one hand they were adorable but on the other that felt like the gratuitous Lauriver flashback in 419 which is sad sad sad!

IMO The Olicity flashback in this episode isn't like the L/O flashback in 419 at all because 1) Felicity isn't dead, so Oliver and Felicity can get back together eventually and 2) Stephen/Oliver didn't look like he wanted to run away as far as he could in the Olicity flashback, 3) it matches up with what happens in later seasons, as in, Oliver and Felicity did act on their attraction, whereas what actually happened to Oliver and Laurel on the show after the made-up flashback didn't match.

I get it, it feels like fanbaiting. But since there's no way to leave encouraging hints about Olicity in the present day storyline while they're seeing other people, I think the show does want to remind the audience that they're not over for good, hence the unnecessary flashback. Whether they get back together during February sweeps, the end of the season, or some time in the future, the show is still leaving a big ass hint that it's still a possibility.

Edited December 8, 2016 by lemotomato

[Midnight Lullaby]

5 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I *think* someone asked him if Oliver and Susan slept together after they got drinks and he said something like "I imagine they did"? But then the way they greeted each other at the Christmas party wasn't the greeting of two people who were having sex. So...these people -as per usual- need to get their stories straight. 

I honestly have no idea. Just reporting what I read in a discussion on twitter where they were talking about the end of the episode but that's all I know so between us you are definitely more reliable.

[Mellowyellow]

6 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I *think* someone asked him if Oliver and Susan slept together after they got drinks and he said something like "I imagine they did"? But then the way they greeted each other at the Christmas party wasn't the greeting of two people who were having sex. So...these people -as per usual- need to get their stories straight. 

This will be like the mystery of who was still living in the loft! I swear I still think that scene looked like Felicity was moving out!

@lemotomato Thank you I feel slightly mollified after reading your post! I don't want to be *that* shipper! The one that reads waaay too much into things when the ship is as dead as a doornail and I'm just being strung along! Went there once and vowed not to do it again!  

[lemotomato]

Just now, Mellowyellow said:

This will be like the mystery of who was still living in the loft! I swear I still think that scene looked like Felicity was moving out!

@lemotomato Thank you I feel slightly mollified after reading your post! I don't want to be *that* shipper! The one that reads waaay too much into things when the ship is as dead as a doornail and I'm just being strung along! Went there once and vowed not to do it again!  

I don't think Olicity is dead as a doornail. L/O was dead as a doornail, because they literally gave them a made-up flashback only after she died for good, and not a second before. When Olicity will get back together, though... I have no idea.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

Welp... LOL

You know I actually wondered if he did or didn't. The show made it seem like it but he ended up at the lair right after which was a confusing time jump (not unusual for Arrow). If SA is saying it didn't happen then I'm guessing it's probably something covered in a later episode.

[bijoux]

I was holding back on criticizing Tyler Ritter becuase I thought (hoped) he played Malone the way he did because there would turn out to be more to him and the contrast would be greater when it came out. In the end, he just remained Felicity's lame whatever. The scene in the loft read like he was a kid walking off in a snit after his mom told him he couldn't go to a sleep over. Also, he's a shitty, shitty cop going to track clues about Prometheus without back up. Which makes him one of SCPD's finest, no doubt.

Another weird scene was Susan pulling Oliver in for a kiss. Not the fact that she did it, we said goodbye to professionalism long ago there, but both the line they gave her and her reading of it were clunky.

I do not care that Wild Dog is apparently a dead beat dad as well.