S01.E10: Last Christmas

[chocolatine]

23 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

Others (which is the camp it sounds like @chocolatine is in) are annoyed that a minor holiday has been elevated out of a perceived need (which they reject) to "fit in" with the holiday spirit of the majority culture.

Yes, exactly. Not that I begrudge anyone a celebration, I just think it's important to distinguish between vanity holidays and actual high holidays.

[LisaM]

I was spoiled that something was going to happen to Toby so I watched him carefully once he showed up at the house. He was short of breath after the sex and there was visible sweat on his face while sitting on the couch - both of which are signs of an impending major issue. Those facts coupled with the talk of flying cross country wedged into a middle seat which meant that he likely didn't get up and walk around signaled a pulmonary embolism to me. Well done, Show, for giving us the subtle clues.

[possibilities]

I am pro-holiday in general. Holidays keep people involved, happy, and thinking about what the holidays represent (which are usually really interesting things in my opinion).

My family always lit the menorah, ate latkes, and spun dreidls. Nothing much was happening at the synagogue, though (synagogue did have stuff happening for Sukkot and Purim, by contrast, and for sure for High Holidays which = Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur).

What I think got this conversation started about whether Chanukah is "a thing" or not was talking about whether Sloan's family was celebrating it in a typical way and whether it was appropriate for Kevin to be there. I don't think anyone was saying it was WRONG to tell the story or celebrate that way, just that it wasn't something everyone does and some of us were also saying that having a non-Jew there wasn't particularly big deal because the holiday itself wasn't a huge sacred deal either (but at least one person did think it was inappropriate).

We need a new episode to obsess about and pick over for cultural meaning and raw controversy!!

[jhlipton]

On 1/1/2017 at 2:36 PM, possibilities said:

My family always lit the menorah, ate latkes, and spun dreidls.

I visited my mom at her Senior Center this past week and this is pretty much what they did (cold latkes -- ick!!!).  I got to tell the Chanukah story and I used what I remembered of Sloane's version as my template.

[PRgal]

On 2016-12-31 at 7:09 PM, SlackerInc said:

I'm not Jewish (nor Christian, or anything else), but I've had a number of Jewish friends over the years.  I've noticed a variety of attitudes toward Hanukkah.  Some are glad to have a solid competitor to Christmas as a December festival involving gifts.  Others (which is the camp it sounds like @chocolatine is in) are annoyed that a minor holiday has been elevated out of a perceived need (which they reject) to "fit in" with the holiday spirit of the majority culture.

But hey: Christmas was also basically sort of shoehorned into December, and Christmas trees (something Jesus and his disciples would not have recognized) glommed onto it, to fit with the traditional majority culture of pagan religion.  <shrug>

Which is what I say to people about Christmas whenever people talk about Chanukkah not being a "major" holiday.  If you think about it, we could very well be celebrating Christmas in August if it weren't for pagan December festivals.  I like my Christmukkahdong (Christmas, Chanukkah and "jo dong" (Winter Solstice festival - "dong" means winter in Cantonese and "jo" is do.  It's what my family has always called it, though it doesn't sound very "proper" to me.  It's basically Chinese Thanksgiving, so yeah, food, food and food).

[DebbieM4]

On 12/8/2016 at 2:53 PM, Big Mother said:

It';s possible that Sloane is from a very liberal family, bc in a family where the Chanukah traditions are so well kept and where the story is told so beautifully and clearly, would probably be the type of family that would not want their daughter to intermarry. So it was a little off to me. But maybe they were blinded by him being the Manny :D.

I'm just catching up on posts from a month ago, and this caught my eye.  I have to say that I disagree.

I'm Jewish and my family is all about tradition.   Our home was kosher, we all went to Sabbath services every week, attended Hebrew school, the whole bit.  I wouldn't say that we're "very liberal", and yet my son is currently engaged to a lovely girl who is not Jewish and my brother's wife is also not Jewish.  The rest of us did marry within our faith, but whoever we brought home was always greeted with open arms.   I didn't find that scene "off" at all.

eta:  As for "Chanukah dinner", I've been to many, even if they weren't all called exactly that.   Not everyone's traditions are the same, even within the same religion.  My husband and I both were raised as Conservative Jews, but the traditions of his family and mine were very, very different, to the point that my beloved grandfather was appalled and much lively discussion ensued.   So there certainly is a lot of variety, and it's not one-size-fits-all.  Chanukah, by the way, is technically not a holiday, but a festival.  The Festival of Lights.  It's not one of the High Holidays for sure, but it's commonly observed in one way or another.  Celebrating it is a longstanding and lovely tradition in my family, and I wholeheartedly embrace it.  I'm also always interested in hearing the traditions of other families and other religions.

Edited January 7, 2017 by DebbieM4
added an additional thought

[DebbieM4]

On 12/10/2016 at 10:29 PM, Laurie4H said:

I didn't say it was unrealistic that a guy would fall for a overweight person who had a hot wife.  Why do my words get twisted.  I said it was unrealistic for someone that DRASTICALLY overweight and that it would be more realistic if maybe she was 50 lbs overweight and a size 16 or so.  I didn't say overweight equals ugly. 

But why does the degree of overweight matter?  He could very well have been attracted in the past to someone thin, and now someone not thin.  Maybe the thin wife was the only thin woman he's ever been attracted to.   Maybe all of his girlfriends before her were overweight.  Or some were and some weren't.  It's completely possible that he finds larger women more "hot" than thinner women.   Many men do.    Or maybe he just falls in love with women who make him laugh - or are intelligent - or have other qualifies that are important to him.   Size has nothing to do with any of that.  

I always thought I had a type, but if I look back at my dating history, I see that I actually dated all kinds of men.  And I was engaged twice -  to men who could not have been more different, both in looks and personality.  They each were what I wanted, needed, and loved at the time.  

Attraction and chemistry are fascinating things.  I don't find it unrealistic at all that Toby is head over heels for Kate.

On 12/12/2016 at 10:42 PM, JasminePhyllisia said:

I'm leaning with those who think there was no suicide and Randall is mentally unstable.  The timeline simply doesn't work--they still had time to go home and celebrate Christmas Eve with family just showing up and the kids still up.  If it had really happened they would have been stuck there for hours while Randall was interviewed by police.  And his wife would have been at least slightly upset once they got home.

Why would he have been interviewed by police?  He clearly didn't call them, and no one else seemed to know what had been going on.

We saw Randall and Beth walking off together, and he didn't even say anything to her.  He acted completely normal, and they went on with their night.  That's why several of us were questioning why he didn't follow up with Andy (was that his name? I'm drawing a blank now) to see if he was okay and encourage him to get further help or whatever.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, DebbieM4 said:

Why would he have been interviewed by police?  He clearly didn't call them, and no one else seemed to know what had been going on.

We saw Randall and Beth walking off together, and he didn't even say anything to her.  He acted completely normal, and they went on with their night.  That's why several of us were questioning why he didn't follow up with Andy (was that his name? I'm drawing a blank now) to see if he was okay and encourage him to get further help or whatever.

Three posts later that poster said, "Oops, never mind, I didn't notice he walked back into the party."  She/he thought the implication was the guy jumped, originally.  

[DebbieM4]

10 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Three posts later that poster said, "Oops, never mind, I didn't notice he walked back into the party."  She/he thought the implication was the guy jumped, originally.  

Thank you.  I was having some trouble navigating here last night.  

[jumper sage]

19 hours ago, DebbieM4 said:

But why does the degree of overweight matter?  He could very well have been attracted in the past to someone thin, and now someone not thin.  Maybe the thin wife was the only thin woman he's ever been attracted to.   Maybe all of his girlfriends before her were overweight.  Or some were and some weren't.  It's completely possible that he finds larger women more "hot" than thinner women.   Many men do.    Or maybe he just falls in love with women who make him laugh - or are intelligent - or have other qualifies that are important to him.   Size has nothing to do with any of that

I get that some people look at physical characteristics as a primary reason for a relationship, but many do not.  I think you find the right person by looking at character compliments.

I have never seen this show but caught the whole thing up on a binge.  I am hooked!  See you all next week.

[DebbieM4]

42 minutes ago, jumper sage said:

I get that some people look at physical characteristics as a primary reason for a relationship, but many do not.  I think you find the right person by looking at character compliments.

I have never seen this show but caught the whole thing up on a binge.  I am hooked!  See you all next week.

I agree that many do not.  But I was replying to a poster who found it unbelievable that Toby would be attracted to Kate since his ex-wife was "hot" and Kate is very overweight.  My point was that for lots of people much more comes into play than appearance, and there are a slew of reasons why Toby might have had an ideal-weight wife and still fall in love with Kate.

I'm hooked, too!  Unlike many others here, this show has never made me cry.  Kind of surprising, because I typically cry at everything.  But I am enjoying it very much.  I also enjoy this forum a lot, and it will be nice to have it become more active again.  :-)

[lucindabelle]

How do we go from "not that observant" to "sloanes family is not ultra  Orthodox ?" 

do people commenting seriously think that being the LEAST bit observant makes one "ultra Orthodox?" Lots of Jews went to Hebrew school, go to shul more than once a year, know blessings, might even light candles on Friday, and yet aren't "ultra Orthodox." In fact Reform might well look "ultra Orthodox" if you were unfamiliar with it. By the way "ultra Orthodox" tends to mean "chasidic" and there's a whole category of modern orthodox which isn't. If people are going to speculate about Judaism it helps to know the different varieties. 

people do Hannukah. People have dinner on Hannukah. But "Hannukah dinner" is not a thing (nope. There is no ritual hannnuka dinner) and "telling the story" is so not a part of the usual that  for THIS seriously NOT ultra-Orthodox and yet NOT completely unobservant person (conservative, which is a theology not a politician view) it needed a line of dialogue because otherwise it felt contrived and bad writing- just a way for them to get an idea to do a play together.  

 

DRAMATURGICALLY the way this scene worked- failed for me on several levels.

A few lines of dialogue would have made it all feel less orientalizing and "hey! Here's some Jewish stuff to interest all the people who know nothing about it!" To me. I felt it was a bit condescending- right down to the Manischewitz on the table. Kinda reminds me of an episode of call the midwife with a Jewish couple and he seriously brought pickles home from golders green where he works in a jewelry store...

maybe if if you're not Jewish you're not as sensitive to stereotyping and cliche. But to me the shoehorned Hanukkah story was there for the benefit of tv viewers who didn't know it not because it made sense there in the script. Kind of how a Christian might feel if over dinner the big three randomly found an excuse to tell each other the miracle of Christmas...

   I like the comparison of Hannukah to Flag Day. It's minor. I couldn't even tell you when flag day is. 

Oh and: please don't say again that you know I'm wrong because you have a Jewish friend or dated someone Jewish. Again. I know people do Hannukah. I know they eat. It's the phrase "Hannukah dinner," and the unexplained telling of the story. 

[OtterMommy]

3 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

maybe if if you're not Jewish you're not as sensitive to stereotyping and cliche. But to me the shoehorned Hanukkah story was there for the benefit of tv viewers who didn't know it not because it made sense there in the script. Kind of how a Christian might feel if over dinner the big three randomly found an excuse to tell each other the miracle of Christmas...

I saw that bit differently--I didn't see it as throwing a bone to/trying to educate non-Jewish viewers and I didn't feel that it was shoehorned (admittedly, I'm not Jewish and have never personally taken part of Hanukkah celebration, so I have no idea whether or not it is a thing).  Instead, I saw it as an opportunity to show the audience that Sloane had great story telling skills and a bit of a dramatic flair, leading Kevin to suggest that they do the play themselves.  

[lucindabelle]

3 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

I saw that bit differently--I didn't see it as throwing a bone to/trying to educate non-Jewish viewers and I didn't feel that it was shoehorned (admittedly, I'm not Jewish and have never personally taken part of Hanukkah celebration, so I have no idea whether or not it is a thing).  Instead, I saw it as an opportunity to show the audience that Sloane had great story telling skills and a bit of a dramatic flair, leading Kevin to suggest that they do the play themselves.  

I understand- but as I said above that idea bugged me too- that it was freer as a contrivance for them to go "hey! Let's do a play together!" I'd say for me the story telling was doing both of those things at once. Illustrating Jewishness (manischewitz!) and rather clumsily moving the plot forward. 

a line or two of dialogue would have helped justify it. Honestly it would have made more sense if she were asked to tell the guest the story... rather than the (for me) very odd suggestion that it's a thing families do.

i will say I wasn't bothered in the least that he was there on a Jewish holiday. My objections are entirely otherwise. 

[OtterMommy]

6 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

I understand- but as I said above that idea bugged me too- that it was freer as a contrivance for them to go "hey! Let's do a play together!" I'd say for me the story telling was doing both of those things at once. Illustrating Jewishness (manischewitz!) and rather clumsily moving the plot forward. 

a line or two of dialogue would have helped justify it. Honestly it would have made more sense if she were asked to tell the guest the story... rather than the (for me) very odd suggestion that it's a thing families do.

i will say I wasn't bothered in the least that he was there on a Jewish holiday. My objections are entirely otherwise. 

I see your point here and I mentioned something upthread about the same scene that I thought could be fixed with an extra line or two/5 seconds of dialogue (regarding Sloane's sister, or sisters).  While the Hanukkah story aspect didn't bother me, I do respect your reaction--and the fact that two people have brought up two elements of the same scene and suggested that it needed more dialogue say something about the writing of the scene.

[Court]

As I said before, perhaps it is a thing for families, just not yours or the ones you know. It may be uncommon.

We do Christmas Eve Eve dinner. It certainly isn't a "thing" most people do but it is a long held tradition for us. 

We also do tell the Christmas story on Christmas before we eat. I don't care who is there, we're still telling it. It's one of the ways for us and the kids to remember why we're celebrating. We also make a birthday cake. 

Every family, every person is different. One way is not the only right way and the other isn't wrong. Everyone one celebrates their religion differently. Or they don't at all. Or they don't have one. I don't care how one chooses to do it.  

My family is weird because we also bring strangers home for holiday celebrations. We're the outliers!

Just because one has never heard of  xyz doesn't mean xyz never happens. The show's creator, Fogelman, is Jewish.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Court

[lucindabelle]

It's  not that it's "uncommon." The term itself just isn't part of the tradition and needs explanation.

if I were Muslim and said "this isn't a thing" would you then suggest maybe it was just not in my Muslim family?  I mean one could justify ANY representation of Judaism that way. They toast marshmallows on Hannukah! Sure I've  never seen it but how do you know? Some family somewhere might do it! They dance the polka on Passover? Maybe they do somewhere!  

"Every family, every person is different" sounds nice but it has a dangerous edge. Jews have heard the blood libel lie for centuries (I won't repeat it here  it it involves a LIE about Passover ritual). So we have  good reason to be sensitive about how we are represented. (Of course there are differences in how families do things; it's just that they aren't as different as all that. Christianity has much more varieties I'd say-Greek orthodox vs Baptist etc)

Now this is a relatively harmless representation  except I'm a little surprised how people keep comparing it to the gradations of Christmas celebrations. If someone said "I've been invented for Christmas Eve dinner" that sounds normal. In Jewish terms, so would "Shabbat dinner." "Hannukah dinner" is what's odd- it suggests it's the equivalent of a Christmas dinner.

Which isn't to say some families might not have a Hannukah dinner- but you know what? THAT WOULD REQUIRE A LINE OF DIALOGUE because it's unusual. Kinda like when they had hot dogs on thanksgiving we needed it explained because it's unusual. (Hell even if she'd hedged with "a Hannukah dinner kinda thing" it would have sounded more normal.)

i like "Christmas Eve eve." And if someone did that on the show- there'd be a line of dialogue about it. Even if it were just  "it's this thing we do."

Aa for being weird for bringing strangers in- as I stated explicitly that's not any kind of an issue for me.

so again. I don't mind it happening. I minded the term. I minded the manischewitz (at least, not without real wine being there too) and the way the story was told. That's all.

[chocolatine]

25 minutes ago, Court said:

We do Christmas Eve Eve dinner. It certainly isn't a "thing" most people do but it is a long held tradition for us. 

The difference I think is that the majority of viewers know that Christmas Eve Eve dinner isn't a Christian tradition, whereas the majority of viewers probably don't know that Chanukah dinner and storytelling isn't a Jewish tradition, and some of us are getting frustrated at yet another misconception about Judaism being perpetuated in popular culture.

27 minutes ago, Court said:

Every family, every person is different. One way is not the only right way and the other isn't wrong.

There's only one right way to celebrate each Jewish high holiday like Passover or Rosh Hashanah. Those are rituals that have been around in religious texts for thousands of years, every Jew knows about them, and they are taken very seriously. If you've ever been to a Passover seder, you know what I'm talking about. Sloane's family's Chanukah tradition has zero religious or cultural significance, it's completely made up by the family, and the right thing to do would have been for the show to emphasize that.

[Big Mother]

I'm chassidich, ultra-Orthodox, what have you, and the scene didnt bother me that much. Yes, it was inaccurate - "hannukah dinner" and 'retelling of the story' does not happen on Chanukah as a tradition, but as I gathered from the scene, the Sloanes aren't remotely religioiusly observant, just very culturally Jewish, and Sloane probably remembered that story from Sunday School or Chabad or something.

[lucindabelle]

8 hours ago, Big Mother said:

I'm chassidich, ultra-Orthodox, what have you, and the scene didnt bother me that much. Yes, it was inaccurate - "hannukah dinner" and 'retelling of the story' does not happen on Chanukah as a tradition, but as I gathered from the scene, the Sloanes aren't remotely religioiusly observant, just very culturally Jewish, and Sloane probably remembered that story from Sunday School or Chabad or something.

And you got that context. The point is that non-Jews don't. Quod erat demonstrandum. See also people saying how yes it was too accurate, maybe, they once knew a Jewish person.

[biakbiak]

19 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

if I were Muslim and said "this isn't a thing" would you then suggest maybe it was just not in my Muslim family?  

I would.

[editorgrrl]

13 hours ago, Big Mother said:

I'm chassidich, ultra-Orthodox, what have you, and the scene didnt bother me that much. Yes, it was inaccurate—"hannukah dinner" and 'retelling of the story' does not happen on Chanukah as a tradition, but as I gathered from the scene, the Sloanes aren't remotely religioiusly observant, just very culturally Jewish, and Sloane probably remembered that story from Sunday School or Chabad or something.

My takeaway was "here's a Sandburg family tradition," just like the Pearsons' quirky Thanksgiving and Christmas rituals. I never once thought "this is how everyone (or even anyone) celebrates Hanukkah IRL."

(If it matters, I'm a lapsed Catholic who knows little to nothing about Hanukkah.)

[photo fox]

Everybody has said their piece on this, yes?  The horse is truly dead, I think.  We're getting a new episode tonight, so let's let this one be.

[Stanner]

On 12/8/2016 at 11:54 AM, OtterMommy said:

I don't know about Kevin's finances.  

In episode #2 Lanie  is ranting at him about how she got him a job making almost 3 million a year. I don't think he's hurting too much. 

Toby is absolutely a narcissist. Everything he does 'for Kate' is always about pointing out how great he is and how well he treats her. He reminds me of my ex in every possible way, except the little spot of hair on his head.  Bye Felicia. 

[biakbiak]

2 hours ago, Stanner said:

In episode #2 Lanie  is ranting at him about how she got him a job making almost 3 million a year. I don't think he's hurting too much. 

Toby is absolutely a narcissist. Everything he does 'for Kate' is always about pointing out how great he is and how well he treats her. He reminds me of my ex in every possible way, except the little spot of hair on his head.  Bye Felicia. 

Except the studio head said he was going to sue him for breach of contract and take hi him for more than he would ever make.

[Crs97]

I thought he was going to sue only if Kevin tried to get back on television again.  I thought that is why Kevin switched to theater.

[biakbiak]

21 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I thought he was going to sue only if Kevin tried to get back on television again.  I thought that is why Kevin switched to theater.

That was never mentioned. Kevin went to NY and the theater because no studio could hire because of his contract, the suing him was in addition to the fact that he wouldn't be able to work in tv.

Edited January 11, 2017 by biakbiak

[Guest]

If they skipped over a lawsuit that left him penniless and somehow occurred in mere months, that'd be kind of a big thing.  If he wasn't still loaded, who was paying for that ginormous NY hotel suite?  

[topanga]

11 hours ago, biakbiak said:

That was never mentioned. Kevin went to NY and the theater because no studio could hire because of his contract, the suing him was in addition to the fact that he wouldn't be able to work in tv.

 

7 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

If they skipped over a lawsuit that left him penniless and somehow occurred in mere months, that'd be kind of a big thing.  If he wasn't still loaded, who was paying for that ginormous NY hotel suite?  

Didn't the show fire him, though? Didn't someone tell him that they no longer wanted him as the Nanny? So how is he in breach of his contract.

And I sure hope Kevin is not still paying for that hotel suite. He could feed a small village with the money he'd be spending on that unused hotel room. 

[grayson]

Happy that Doctor K (Gerald McRaney) survived his operation. His character brings a reassuring gravitas to the series.

Edited January 13, 2017 by grayson

[Quickbeam]

Binge watching this show on Hulu for the first time. Don't like Toby but that was a championship fall for the actor. 

[Superpole2000]

I am also binge watching this, and this was the first episode that I didn't really enjoy. I felt like there was too much time spent on auxiliary characters (William's man, the almost-jumper, and Sloan...who I actually kind of like but didn't feel ready to meet her family just yet). I also thought Toby's Jerry Maguire moment was ridiculous, considering they were broken up and there was no guarantee Kate would be receptive to it.