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S01.E10: The Bicameral Mind

formerlyfreedom

By formerlyfreedom
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AimingforYoko
AimingforYoko

That scene where he sees Bernard's body and starts freaking out about whether he's human was comedy gold.

gwhh
gwhh

Note to future robot makers:  do not make robots that look like people. Do NOT make them stronger, faster or smarter than people. That is all. 

arc
arc

Seriously, Imma need all y'all to be able to tell different Asian people apart. That guy has a different nose and different lips from Leonardo Nam.

BooBear

BooBear

6 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Why is no one at Westworld central control asking where Stubbs went to ?  Because unlike Elsie, he didn't just go on vacation.  And when they went on lockdown, what was the significance of the model of Westworld going dark and descending ?

I was not impressed. I stuck with this show because the pilot was promising but clearly the creators of this show just do NOT have it.   With regard to Elsie and Stubbs it is as if they just forgot about them. Not to mention that Westworld clearly has the worst security ever. 

Felix still makes zero sense to me. Assuming he is sympathetic to Mave he would have to know his life would be over once it was found out what he did.  So he makes no sense. Ford makes no sense. Why did he have to die? Was he sick? Why did he have to die in front of everyone. If he wanted to see the robots kill the board he should have set his death afterward. I feel that the reason Mave had a change of heart was that it would have been expensive for the show to have her out in the real world (which they would have to create). But I was looking forward to that and it could have been a great launching point for season two. If they want us to sympathize with the bots they should have found a way for us to see what was going on with their programming and so we could know when they weren't acting in conformity. 

I find Dolores to be super boring and weepy.  I kind of hope she gets dismantled.  I do feel bad for Logan. He was always extremely clear that he just wanted to play the game. William was the nut.   I am not sure what happened to Logan but I don't see why he would put him on the horse naked.  Or maybe I just don't want to go there. 

  • Love 4
Ellaria

Ellaria

(edited)
3 hours ago, eliot90000 said:

I think it could be argued that returning for her daughter was the first really autonomous thing Maeve ever did.  Ford has to be dead and not a host.  The whole point of his new narrative is that the hosts are now autonomous beings.  Ford will no longer be pulling their strings.  They are the music he leaves behind.

Well said. Maeve is still in the park and now is making her own decisions. I think that Ford is dead, too. His creations no longer need him. They will survive without him.

At some point, the "outside world" will learn about the deaths in this adult amusement park. Wonder how that will be addressed. And who will address it? Bernard?

A few other thoughts and questions:

  • Presumably Logan spent some time riding around naked. Eventually park management caught up to him and sent him home and William promptly convinced his father-in-law-to-be that Logan was nutso.
  • The photo of Juliet has no greater meaning despite all of the speculation. The wind blew it off William's horse and it ended up at the Abernathy farm.
  • What about the vision that Dolores had of herself lying dead in the river? Was that the end of her journey with William?
  • Why did Teddy see a direwolf run thru the scene of the massacre in Escalante? 
Edited by Ellaria Sand
  • Love 6
arc

arc

17 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:
  • What about the vision that Dolores had of herself lying dead in the river? Was that the end of her journey with William?

I guess it was the end of her first journey with William, the one where Logan waylaid them and stabbed her? I thought William explained that Dolores kept going off-loop, essentially finding a new loop for herself where she would return to Escalante, and in the early years he would sometimes go along with her on these trips. It was a little quick and vague, but that was how I understood it.

  • Love 10
kellog010

kellog010

I'll need to re-watch the series with new eyes, but I think that Maeve passed the final test. Though her escape was scripted, it allowed her to awaken with purpose so she wouldn't go crazy like she did a year previously.

Also, being that Ford is old, regretting how things ended with Arnold and knew he was on the way out, I could see how that could push him to his final act. The board was threatening to regress the hosts and likely sell off his IP for profit. I imagine how an artist would feel if someone came along and painted over their masterpiece.

  • Love 10
dr pepper

dr pepper

I did not want there to be two timelines.

I did not want Bernard to be robot Arnold.

I did not want William to grow up to be the Man in Black.

I did not want Teddy to be a substitute for young William.

I did not want Wyatt to turn out to be Delores.

I did not want Maeve's freewill to turn out to be just a deeper storyline.

I did not want Arnold to be truly gone and Ford being the one to carry on whatever was left of him.

And if anyone had suggested that Ford would turn out to be the one really working for robot liberation, even if in his own twisted way, i would have said i did not want that.

But Mick Jagger just sat down at the saloon piano.

I did want Gotterdammerung, so that part was really satisfying. But i expected Ford to just replace the board or at least a few key members. I don't see how the robots will be able to maintain WW as some sort of autonomous commune. That many deaths can't be ignored. Troops would be sent in, and if that didn't work, the next step would be carpet bombing.

Guess we'll see.

I did expect Snakechaser to cut off her arm, i just thought she'd do it immediately, after asking Hector to fetch her a katana.

More later.

  • Love 8
jojozigs

jojozigs

(edited)
9 minutes ago, dr pepper said:

I did not want Teddy to be a substitute for young William.

Don't worry - he wasn't.  We now know that Teddy already was devoted to Dolores before William showed up.  Arnold tells Dolores she'll need some help (to massacre the hosts / kill him) and Teddy will do anything for her.  Those events happened about 3 years before William and Logan arrive at the park. 

Quote

I did not want Maeve's freewill to turn out to be just a deeper storyline.

I feel you.  But, what is free will anyway?  Generally we do what we are programmed to do (by experience, habit, and emotion).  Androids of course are easier to re-program than humans, but other than that detail is there much difference?  It doesn't mean our existences have no meaning.  

Quote

And if anyone had suggested that Ford would turn out to be the one really working for robot liberation, even if in his own twisted way, i would have said i did not want that.

I agree.  I wish they had gone full evil with Ford - I felt that his portrayal in ep 7-9 (in my interpretation, as a total bastard who craves power and hates everything living) was more believable than what we got this episode.  I feel like the character was written in a somewhat misleading way in order to let the plot happen.  

Edited by jojozigs
  • Love 6
BeatrixK

BeatrixK

(edited)

Been thinking a little about Maeve returning, and going 'off script' from the Ford program.

Remember when Felix was fitzing around with the bird, overriding it's programming, etc.  I wonder if THAT is why Maeve came back?  Felix gave her the coordinates handwritten, but he did have access to her scripts -- so either he was 'testing' his code, or maybe didn't want to write it specifically into the code so they couldn't easily be at the coordinates waiting on her?

Just seems like the Felix storyline is going to go somewhere other than his being a quirky little lab tech.  He is attached to Maeve, and he knows how to do stuff way beyond his paygrade.  I think he's going to be a little bit more intrinsic to Maeve's story line than his low-level job within Delos would indicate.

Edited by BeatrixK
  • Love 2
Honey

Honey

Okay, maybe I'm just a cold hearted bitch, but there were only 2 characters (Maeve, Felix) that I cared about. I didn't really care if any of the others died. So the finale was kind of eh to me.

A finale like this works better after a couple of seasons, when you have time invested in the characters. In GoT's The Red Wedding, maybe I didn't love every character, but at least I really knew them.

The MIB's long explanation to Dolores, about how William turned dark seemed unnecessary. In fact, I found the episode overly wordy several times.

The storm trooper security guards were laughable.

  • Love 8
Miles

Miles

(edited)
7 hours ago, jojozigs said:

And can we now conclude that his abuse of Dolores and teddy in ep 1 really was just a bit of fun and had nothing to do with triggering her walkabout?  Because he didn't bring that up at all, and it would have made sense to.  

Yeah it seems that way. The triggering thing would have been a bit more interesting, but this way certainly did make sense.

The only thing I'm confused about how Dolores could go so far off from her usual narrative without anybody catching her and bringing her back. But I guess Ford might have hidden her from prying eyes, so his grand new narrative could play out.

4 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I didn't care who died tonight. Felix was the only human we knew in real danger.  And all those techs and security dying for what reason?   Ford could have had her slip out non violently.   I get that suffering forces us to make changes but why let the hosts inflict violence?  

I guess it was in the hosts' character to kill rather than take prisoners. But it was a bit jarring, since the show kinda made it out to be like the techs deserverd it, probably so we wouldn't think too badly of Maeve. But for me that didn't work at all and if anything triggered in me the opposite response.

I mean jacking it in front of a naked robot might be a bit creepy, but it's certainly no offence that warrents the death penelty.

3 hours ago, phoenyx said:

I believe that last one- for a very long time, I've been a determinist.

Me too. It's not often you find people who think that way. I guess just like death, the human mind recoils from the idea, that free will might just be a comforting idea we made up.

Edited by Miles
Honey

Honey

(edited)
2 hours ago, BooBear said:

I was not impressed. I stuck with this show because the pilot was promising but clearly the creators of this show just do NOT have it.   With regard to Elsie and Stubbs it is as if they just forgot about them. Not to mention that Westworld clearly has the worst security ever. 

Felix still makes zero sense to me. Assuming he is sympathetic to Mave he would have to know his life would be over once it was found out what he did.  So he makes no sense. Ford makes no sense. Why did he have to die? Was he sick? Why did he have to die in front of everyone. If he wanted to see the robots kill the board he should have set his death afterward. I feel that the reason Mave had a change of heart was that it would have been expensive for the show to have her out in the real world (which they would have to create). But I was looking forward to that and it could have been a great launching point for season two. If they want us to sympathize with the bots they should have found a way for us to see what was going on with their programming and so we could know when they weren't acting in conformity. 

I find Dolores to be super boring and weepy.  I kind of hope she gets dismantled.  I do feel bad for Logan. He was always extremely clear that he just wanted to play the game. William was the nut.   I am not sure what happened to Logan but I don't see why he would put him on the horse naked.  Or maybe I just don't want to go there. 

They weren't forgotten.  Well, at least Elisie wasn't...

 

If you go to http://delosincorporated.com and type Reverie in the Admin box you get you get a short video and then a bunch of text which includes the line:
Code: 61 48 52 30 63 44 6f 76 4c 32 52 6c 62 47 39 7a 61 57 35 6a 62 33 4a 77 62 33 4a 68 64 47 56 6b 4c 6d 4e 76 62 53 39 32 61 57 52 6c 62 79 39 70 62 6e 52 79 59 53 39 30 59 57 4a 73 5a 58 51 75 62 58 41 30 44 51 70 6f 64 48 52 77 4f 69 38 76 5a 47 56 73 62 33 4e 70 62 6d 4e 76 63 6e 42 76 63 6d 46 30 5a 57 51 75 59 32 39 74 4c 32 46 7a 63 32 56 30 63 79 39 30 63 6d 46 75 63 32 31 70 63 33 4e 70 62 32 34 75 62 58 41 30
Which is hex. If you convert that, you get:
aHR0cDovL2RlbG9zaW5jb3Jwb3JhdGVkLmNvbS92aWRlby9pbnRyYS90YWJsZXQubXA0DQpodHRwOi8vZGVsb3NpbmNvcnBvcmF0 ZWQuY29tL2Fzc2V0cy90cmFuc21pc3Npb24ubXA0
Which is Base 64. If you convert that, you get these 2 links:
http://delosincorporated.com/video/intra/tablet.mp4

http://delosincorporated.com/assets/transmission.mp4

With regards to Logan, William wanted to make him appear unfit to run the company.  Then William takes control, and he can invest whatever he wants into Westworld.

Edited by Honey
  • Love 4
jojozigs

jojozigs

52 minutes ago, Honey said:

Ford knew because he wrote the program.

The point is that Ford did not write "Man in Black Stabs Dolores" into his program.  How could he?  Unless you want to pull that MIB is a host.  Which... just no.

Maybe there was another mechanism by which Dolores would be fatally injured if the man in black hadn't shown up at that moment.  Perhaps Ford himself would do it. 

  • Love 2
Dev F

Dev F

13 minutes ago, jojozigs said:

Maybe there was another mechanism by which Dolores would be fatally injured if the man in black hadn't shown up at that moment.  Perhaps Ford himself would do it. 

I think the idea is that Dolores has done this a number of times in the past -- going off her loop to try to complete the maze again -- and it always ends with her death. In that sense, it's just another loop with as predictable an ending as her encounter with the outlaws at the ranch. She and Teddy were going to end up at the gala one way or another.

  • Love 7
Lamima

Lamima

(edited)
10 hours ago, dgpolo said:

 

When Ford was talking to old William he said something like, 'you own the park..most of it anyway' and my thoughts went to the little house nobody knows about and Ford's pseudo family. I can see him holing up there while sending out a lookalike robot for his final speech. And maybe he's recruiting Elsie and Stubbs.

This. Though I also wonder if Elsie and Stubbs are dead and Félix is a host too. I wonder if Ford plans to be the last human standing with his host army. I am sure that's what he plans. Maybe Elsie and Stubbs are still alive, for now as Ford needs them, for now.

Edited by Lamima
  • Love 1
Hanahope

Hanahope

The reason I believe Maeve is definitely off her programming in getting off the train is that Ford could not have known that she would end up sitting right across from a mother and child.  Viewing that is when Maeve really took control and began to be her own programming.  It is said that there is isn't much a mother wouldn't do for her child.  That kind of bond is very difficult to break or program around.  The question is, what will Maeve do when she realizes that her 'daughter' doesn't remember her because the 'daughter' has been reprogrammed.  or will the 'daughter' regain those memories, can Maeve do that?

I think that when Ford talked about Mozart, et al, 'becoming the music', it was a foreshadowing of him becoming a host, becoming his own art/work.  So, yeah, I expect we'll see him back at some point.

  • Love 4
numbnut

numbnut

(edited)
5 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

The photo of Juliet has no greater meaning despite all of the speculation. The wind blew it off William's horse and it ended up at the Abernathy farm.

I was waiting for more info on the fiancee since her name is Juliet and "These violent delights have violent ends" is from Romeo and Juliet. Teddy and Dolores's final beach moment felt inspired by that play via West Side Story ("someday, somewhere"). The dropping of the photo reminded me of the fate of Sarah's Polaroid in Terminator and the toy doll in Planet of the Apes. (They also "aped" three shots from the latter movie.)

I liked the twist that Ford was using Arnold's voice all this time.

I love Radiohead and "Exit Music (for a Film)" but that song has been used in so many movies. I rolled my eyes when I heard it.

How does Logan riding naked on a horse convince his family that he's unstable?

2 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I think that when Ford talked about Mozart, et al, 'becoming the music', it was a foreshadowing of him becoming a host, becoming his own art/work.  So, yeah, I expect we'll see him back at some point.

Me too.

Edited by numbnut
  • Love 3
jeansheridan

jeansheridan

Still annoyed.  How can the robots survive if they are still trapped in the park?  I realize the software is valuable but humans can still bomb the place.  Or gas them.  Bernard is a key mole I guess.  He is still the only host who is still thought to be human.  But I have no idea what Bernard wants now. Freedom?  For his "people" to survive?  Bernard is a cipher.  

William may want the rebellion to continue, but if enough board members die, their families outrank him despite his money.   They will want the park neutralized.  

Felix baffles me still.  It may be the actor at this point.  He has two modes-anxious or freaked out.  He watched humans die in horrible ways and looked....nervous.  Felix really makes no sense.  And why is Sylvester alive?   That is a death we could have felt something about.  

I realize all pieces of fiction are fully controlled by the writer until the viewer interacts with the piece.  We bring our prejudices and histories and react accordingly.  

What was frustrating was Nolan refused to let his own creations breathe more.  React more to the story they were in.  I think we all liked the two bandits shooting up the labs because they felt loose and free.  And then he has Maeve stop Hector cold and boom.  Magic is gone.  

Give me one genuinely chaotic character next season, please!  Someone loose and fast who cannot be controlled and anticipated.  A change agent.  Elsie and Ashley staging a human rebellion.  I don't mind that they are loose ends if they DO something.

  • Love 2
numbnut

numbnut

(edited)
29 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

Felix baffles me still.  It may be the actor at this point.  He has two modes-anxious or freaked out.

He had more personality right before Maeve woke up on the operating table (the first time), when he and Sylvester were talking about cleanliness.

Quote

What was frustrating was Nolan refused to let his own creations breathe more.

I agree that Nolan has limitations when it comes to writing emotional arcs, but Maeve's was done well (the road to her decision to save her daughter). I was also invested in Bernard to a point, but I mainly enjoyed the show on an intellectual level. Ditto for Nolan's movies.

Edited by numbnut
  • Love 2
Lamima

Lamima

(edited)
11 minutes ago, Miles said:

nope

yeah, I think so. It was said there was a park incident in which a guest was harmed, early on. Do you dispute that? Or just that the incident led to changes in safety measures?

I don't know how but I think Logan rode off on that horse and died. Or else he'd have a story to tell and his sister wouldn't marry William nor would William run the company and have control/ownership of Westworld.

Or was the early incident that led to harm of human the Delores killing Arnold bit?

Edited by Lamima
  • Love 3
Cthulhudrew

Cthulhudrew

6 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I didn't care who died tonight. Felix was the only human we knew in real danger.  And all those techs and security dying for what reason?   Ford could have had her slip out non violently.   I get that suffering forces us to make changes but why let the hosts inflict violence?  

I think Ford doesn't really care much about humans. It's been pretty evident since the pilot that people consider him odd because he spends all his time with the Hosts, and then in this episode he tells Dolores that the past 30 years of suffering was because he needed the Hosts to be prepared to face the "enemy." Given that, plus the fact that he has noted previously that if the Hosts were to become conscious, humans would never allow them to exist (or something to that effect), I think that speaks volumes about why Maeve's escape involved her recruiting two of Westworld's most notorious killers.

Plus, I imagine he liked the symmetry of having Hector and Armistice play a similar role in the Real World as they do in Westworld- that of ushering in the end of the storyline with a chorus of violence and bloodshed.

  • Love 6
Miles

Miles

(edited)
7 minutes ago, Lamima said:

yeah, I think so. It was said there was a park incident in which a guest was harmed, early on. Do you dispute that? Or just that the incident led to changes in safety measures?

The later. They never actually said anything specific about the incident but it was long speculated that it was the events of the movie. Although that doesn't quite fit the timeline anymore with Delos only becoming a majority stakeholder 3 years after opening, it probably was the intent. (although when you look back over such a long period of time, 3 years might still be considered shortly after opening)

Regardless, the laws that a robot can't seriously injur a human were always in effect.

Edited by Miles
jcin617

jcin617

(edited)
8 hours ago, arc said:

If Charlie's death awakened Arnold's soul, if Arnold's lost awakened Ford's conscience... I wonder what seeing Ford's death will awaken in Bernard.

Bernard is already partly awoken (since he knows he's a host), and in fact, he knows what it means to be awoken (as he mentioned Maeve has done it before).  I suppose the question is, is he fully autonomous now, or still following a script.   I would hazard he had some degree of "consciousness" all along - or at least a long leash on improvisation, since he was so integral to managing and developing the hosts.   He just was not fully self-aware until he found out the truth and had all his memories restored.

1 hour ago, jojozigs said:

The point is that Ford did not write "Man in Black Stabs Dolores" into his program.  How could he?  Unless you want to pull that MIB is a host.  Which... just no.

Maybe there was another mechanism by which Dolores would be fatally injured if the man in black hadn't shown up at that moment.  Perhaps Ford himself would do it. 

My guess is Ford knew William was searching for the center of the maze, as was Dolores.  He probably was monitoring them both, and knew that eventually they would meet and things would play out as they have before (with William getting violent with Dolores).  

One other thing I thought of;  while I think Maeve's reprogramming was Ford, I think it was Ford by-way-of Dolores.  Dolores was the one who whispered to Maeve earlier in the season "These violent delights have violent ends."  which seemed to be the trigger that started Maeve's journey.

Edited by jcin617
  • Love 4
Lamima

Lamima

25 minutes ago, Miles said:

The later. They never actually said anything specific about the incident but it was long speculated that it was the events of the movie. Although that doesn't quite fit the timeline anymore with Delos only becoming a majority stakeholder 3 years after opening, it probably was the intent.

Regardless, the laws that a robot can't seriously injur a human were always in effect.

Maybe a dumb question but how did Delores kill Arnold?

izabella

izabella

8 hours ago, Vaz said:

I firmly believe in the "no body, not death" trope so I'm going to assume that Stubbs and Elsie are alive. Bummer that we're going to have to wait until S2 to find out.

Why are people asking about Elsie.  We saw in one of Bernard's trips down sentient lane that he was the one who grabbed Elsie and snapped her neck - his face was reflected in a mirror or something.  Did I just imagine this?

  • Love 3
jeansheridan

jeansheridan

Was the Samaritan rule in place during William and Logan's time?  Basically keeping humans from hurting other humans?  Because I don't recall a demonstration of that safeguard in that era.  William slaughtered all the soldiers but was it so he could beat on Logan or was that just a bonus?  

Logan was still amused and annoyed when William sent him on his way.  Not terrified.  It is that lack of emotion that kills me.  Logan looked inconvenienced.  

I wish Bernard had remained dead.  He added nothing to this ep other than deflating Maeve's rebellion.  

  • Love 1
SoothingDave

SoothingDave

We see Bernard grab Elsie, but not a neck snap.

When William first got to Westworld and was met coming off of the train, going up the escalator, he said he understood he couldn't be hurt.  Angela tells him he can  be hurt "only the right amount."  So, I figure that not being able to have a human be (seriously) hurt was already in the programming at that time.

I don't understand who was leading the horde of undead hosts from the cold storage area.  Was that just Ford's doing that they would return and attack, or was it Maeve who re-animated them?

  • Love 3
izabella

izabella

4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

What about the vision that Dolores had of herself lying dead in the river? Was that the end of her journey with William?

I think it was.  That soldier that William killed, told him they had raped her and left her, presumably for dead.  But, I thought she was still wearing her pants and shirt in the water, so maybe not?

Jael

Jael

1 hour ago, Lamima said:

yeah, I think so. It was said there was a park incident in which a guest was harmed, early on. Do you dispute that? Or just that the incident led to changes in safety measures?

I don't know how but I think Logan rode off on that horse and died. Or else he'd have a story to tell and his sister wouldn't marry William nor would William run the company and have control/ownership of Westworld.

Or was the early incident that led to harm of human the Delores killing Arnold bit?

As much as I enjoyed seeing Logan naked on a horse, that made no sense. If he survived, it would be his word against William's, and why would they believe William? Logan was the one with the rank and power. And given how hardcore William was, I can't imagine him sending Logan off to die without being 100% sure death would actually result.

My other frustration is Felix's mindless cooperation with Maeve, but he could still be a host, so I'll wait and see on that. If the picture someone posted on p1 of a Felix-looking samurai means he was designed as a host for a different park of the park, her line "you're one of them, not one of us," could still apply. (Though unlike Cylons, so far all hosts seem to be unique, right? One Dolores, one Teddy, etc. though they may play different roles over the years.)

Did Abernathy make it out of the park? Was that addressed?

My new life goal is to look as good as Tessa Thompson in high-waisted white pants.

  • Love 4
sneakyflute

sneakyflute

I believe Maeve's decision to remain was both part of her programming and free will. The memories of her daughter are triggered and her maternal instinct kicks into gear the moment she sees the mother and daughter on the train. Without this chance encounter, she would have fled to the mainland. However, her existence is rooted in this memory or "cornerstone" and it's not something she can easily shake, effectively keeping her prisoner of the park.

  • Love 5
BlackberryJam

BlackberryJam

With everything that happened in this episode, I really have only one question:

Why was Charlotte Hale crying during Ford's ending speech? She'd been portrayed as pretty cold, single-minded and thrilled to push Ford out. The display of emotion on her part seemed so out of place that there had to be something more there that having a sad that Ford was retiring with class and dignity.

  • Love 7

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