S02.E09: Episode 9

[JudyObscure]

Speaking of Verity, wasn't she sweet , thinking Elizabeth was hesitant about marrying George out of love for Francis?

13 hours ago, duVerre said:

Incidentally, I thought that first shot of her on the beach, wading in that dress, is the most beautiful visual in the series so far. 

I would probably put this second, after Demelza lying in that field of flowers after her first night with Ross.  Sigh.  The whole show is so beautiful I would still watch if the whole story was Demelza hanging up laundry.

[pasdetrois]

Is it my imagination, or did I see mascara running down Demelza's face as she strode along the beach in her red dress?

[JudyObscure]

Yes.  Poor thing probably didn't have any waterproof Mabeline, but had to use an actual chip of coal around her eyes and crushed rose leaves mixed with lard to color her cheeks and lips. Prudy would have been all agog and Jud would have muttered, "It ain't fittin,' ain't proper, ain't right." 

[applecrisp]

On 11/21/2016 at 7:11 PM, duVerre said:

I can't figure out why Ross didn't ask Demelza a few obvious questions when he met her on the beach. IIRC, he had no idea she was going to the ball without him, so wouldn't he ask her where she'd been in those gorgeous clothes? And even if I'm wrong about whether he knew where she'd spent the night, why didn't he seem to even register that she's ruining her ballgown, her hair is a rat's nest and she's got make-up smeared all over her face?  She looks like she may have been robbed, assaulted, raped, escaped a fire, been caught in a riot, had a nervous breakdown or gone completely nuts. But no, not a word about it. 

Incidentally, I thought that first shot of her on the beach, wading in that dress, is the most beautiful visual in the series so far. 

Yes. I thought the "old Ross" would have been concerned at the very least. He was too caught up in his problems. Of course the deleted scene would have explained some of that.

I still see Ross as sympathetic to his workers and a basically decent man because of it.  I really like Capt. Henshaw.,both he and Dwight expressed their admiration for Demelza to Ross. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by applecrisp

[Neurochick]

10 hours ago, Llywela said:

The series has made a number of subtle but very significant changes that have a considerable impact on how various characters are perceived, not just Ross - but as the lead, he's the most obviously affected. S1 went out of its way to increase his  hero status, twisting the story as written by Graham to achieve this, and S2 has done the reverse, again twisting Graham's story to make Ross's fall from grace look far worse than originally written. Book!Ross is written as central protagonist, not hero, and is a compelling, charismatic, deeply flawed man, capable of doing great things and terrible things in equal measure. He can be thoughtless. He can also be thoughtful. The story as a whole is much deeper, more nuanced, and better balanced in the books - but then, that is generally the case with adaptations. What you are seeing on screen doesn't really do justice to Graham's original story or characters.

This is very, very true as I'm on the second book in the series. 

One thing I notice in the books is that everybody seems to think what they're doing as "the right thing" but never considers if that right thing might hurt other people.  There is a part in the book where it hits Demelza that she might have royally messed things up and it's a good point in the book, because IRL we see things a certain way, when the opposite may be true. 

George and Ross' resentment of each other could ruin any kind of happiness either of them might have because when you resent someone that person owns you hook, line and sinker.

[CTrent29]

On 11/21/2016 at 10:32 PM, scrambled eggs said:

At this point, I just want Elizabeth, Ross, and George to meet the same fate as Francis. Then Demelza and Jeremy can live at Trenwith with Agatha and Verity. 

I'll be damned if I would watch a show with only Demelza, Verity and Agatha.  I'm not that interested in them.

[saber5055]

And me, all I could wonder is, what did Ross do with his horse when he went down the cliff to join Demelza. Let it go to run home and leave him on foot? In other thoughts, I'm working hard trying to see what these women see in Ross and I just can't come up with it. Disappointing, as I like a teevee hero and strong guy, fictional as that person may be. Ross is pretty much of a jackass IMO.

[duVerre]

6 hours ago, saber5055 said:

And me, all I could wonder is, what did Ross do with his horse when he went down the cliff to join Demelza. Let it go to run home and leave him on foot? 

I had the same thought. I have to assume that a short scene was cut. 

[Kerri Okie]

Ross is a jackass, but I'm still rooting for him.  The way I see it, this is the part of the story where he's being brought down to his lowest point, has a revelation, and sets out to prove himself worthy of Demelza's love again.  I haven't read the books so I don't know if it happens, but that's what I'm watching for.  That, and to see Elizabeth's reaction when she realizes she's nothing but a pawn in George's revenge plot, and then to see both of them brought down by Ross and Demelza.

[NoThyme]

On 11/21/2016 at 8:40 PM, Clawdette said:

DuVerre, I believe PBS cut a relevant scene that would have made this clearer.  I think Ross initially goes home and finds out from Prudie and Jed that Demelza is not there.  He is looking for her when he spies her on the beach.  

I really wish we were getting the entire hour rather than the targeted cuts PBS wields.

Why does PBS edit every single show? 

[dubbel zout]

4 hours ago, NoThyme said:

Why does PBS edit every single show? 

Sponsor ads.

[Neurochick]

The problem with Ross, both in the series and in the books is that he acts before he thinks.  I think about the end of the first season, where Ross was arrested.  Before that happened, in the books Ross was warned many times not to think himself above the law because he did many noble, but stupid things that turned the law against him, which was one of the reasons they arrested him and had that dumbass trial in the beginning of this season.

To me, this episode was Ross actually thinking about what he'd done to both Elizabeth and Demelza.  In the show, even Aunt Agatha seemed to feel that Ross should leave Demelza for Elizabeth, since he was a Poldark.  The class system was very, very real at that time; which was why the idea of America was so tempting.  When you think about it, George is living the "American Dream," his grandfather was an illiterate blacksmith and now George is wealthy.  In America, people would see George as a success, but in England, at that time, George is a wannabe and I think that's what pisses George off so much about Ross, that no matter how much money George has, even if he buys himself a title, he will still be "the grandson of an illiterate blacksmith," while Ross has this lineage that goes back centuries; and I find it interesting that George is written and acts very much like a villain.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Neurochick

[ScoobieDoobs]

On 11/23/2016 at 1:04 PM, saber5055 said:

And me, all I could wonder is, what did Ross do with his horse when he went down the cliff to join Demelza. Let it go to run home and leave him on foot? In other thoughts, I'm working hard trying to see what these women see in Ross and I just can't come up with it. Disappointing, as I like a teevee hero and strong guy, fictional as that person may be. Ross is pretty much of a jackass IMO.

Well, this season he's been such a jerk & a jackass, it's easy to forget how appealing he was last season.  First off, he looked hot as hell in S1 & Aidan carried off the shirtless scenes pretty darn well.  Not sure what happened to Aidan cuz he's still a young guy, but this season he looks haggard, drawn & really not so hot.

But even beyond his hotness in S1, there was a lot about Ross which was appealing & compelling -- particularly his strongly independent spirit & his loyalty to his friends & his seemingly considerate nature.  Honestly, he's been such a self-absorbed shithead this season, I've totally forgotten S1 Ross.  It's too bad.

You know, as much as I don't care for Liz, I still think Ross treated her like crap after he spent the night with her.  He could have at least told her he changed his mind & didn't wanna leave Demelza.  But no, the best he could muster was to ride past her & give her distant pensive stares.  That's the best you could do, Ross?  Shithead.

Edited November 25, 2016 by ScoobieDoobs

[saber5055]

Okay, as someone who did not see S1 and only got into this series in the middle of this season, would someone explain why Ross married Demelza and not Elizabeth, who appears to be his true love and "the right one" for him? I like Demelza, but it's because she's a strong, independent woman, which I'm guessing wasn't such an attraction back then just as it puts many men off in today's world.

[JudyObscure]

Elizabeth, Ross and Francis all grew up around each other -- same class, etc.  When they were all teens both boys fell in love with the beautiful Elizabeth. Ross, being the more handsome and manly of the two, won her heart.  When Ross left to go fight in that pesky war with the Americans he gave Elizabeth a little ring and the two "had an understanding."  A few years later, Season one, Episode one, Ross returns.  Rumors had said he was dead, his father actually was dead and his home was in squalor with Prudy and Jud drunk in his bed.  Elizabeth, settling for second best, was engaged to Francis and soon married.

When Ross first saw Demelza, he thought she was a boy.  She was in filthy boy's clothes and was down in the mud trying to save her dog from bad men who wanted to use him as bait in a dog fight.  Ross, ever the champion of the underdog (heh) saved them both and took Demelza home to work as  his kitchen maid.  She had been living with her abusive and awful father and brothers.  She was so feral that she had to learn fine, ladylike ways  (like bathing)  from Prudy and Jud.  She was a quick learner, and growing fast, so in a short while Ross looked up and saw a beauty, serving him his food.  She was also funny, intelligent, charming and kindhearted.  On her part, Demelza had been pretty much in love with Ross since the day he saved her.  

They began lusting after one another from behind trees and so forth  -- one memorable episode had Demelza watching Ross bathe in the ocean.  One night it all became more than they could resist and they ended  in bed together and seemed to have a really glorious night.  The next day, Demelza was all dreamy  and radiant.  When who should come prissing over on her horse but Elizabeth, making little mean girl remarks in Demelza's direction, until she felt inferior and ashamed. 

Demelza got her dog and took off for home.  Ross caught up with her.  She said she had no intention of being a servant with benefits and he said he didn't want that either.  Off they went to the chapel  with Jud and Prudy as the gob-smacked witnesses.

[dubbel zout]

I've been very critical of Elizabeth, but one thing I can't blame her for is marrying Francis. Everyone legit thought Ross was dead. Her behavior once Ross, very much alive, returned is another matter. Neither she nor he acted well. 

[nodorothyparker]

I don't blame her for accepting his proposal.  Ross was presumed dead and Francis was a respectable gentleman with a good name and family estate, even if he was only heir to a struggling mine at that point.  Elizabeth's behavior after Ross shows up very much alive is actually our first big indicator of just how passive and easily led she is and unable to make any real decisions for herself.   She clearly still wants to be with Ross and makes all the eyes and sighs in his direction to keep him hanging around but she won't actually take the step of breaking the engagement or even being honest with herself or either man.  Her parents and Francis' father very much want the marriage to go forward and are applying pressure in that direction, and in all fairness Francis does look like the better bet on paper as Ross has no proper source of income and only a falling in house and neglected land to his name.  She just never challenges any of it that it isn't what she wants or might have feelings of her own.

No, Ross' behavior isn't great either in that he keeps sniffing around her and looking for her to make some kind of move in his direction, even after she's married.   It's hardly surprising then that one of the initial reasons he lists for marrying Demelza in the first place is to provide a distraction.

[ScoobieDoobs]

I give Ross credit for marrying Demelza.  She was his "scullery maid", after all. Notice every one of the high society types (except for Caroline) refer to Demelza that way -- while sneering & making just-smelled-poop faces.  That he married Demelza, without seeming to care she was from a lower class, or what others would think of him, speaks to his highly independent nature.  

But how he treats Demelza -- that he'll cheat on her casually, while she knows?  Blech, that's the shithead Ross we got this season.  

If you haven't seen S1, you're missing out on seeing Ross when he was interesting, compelling & quite likeable, if maybe a tad bit too self-righteous for his own good.  I mean, sheesh, he had it all -- he was hot, had a great body & was a nice guy to boot.  Swoon.  S2 Ross?  I wanna punch him in the face -- just like Demelza did.

[Arwen Evenstar]

17 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

I give Ross credit for marrying Demelza.  She was his "scullery maid", after all. Notice every one of the high society types (except for Caroline) refer to Demelza that way -- while sneering & making just-smelled-poop faces.  That he married Demelza, without seeming to care she was from a lower class, or what others would think of him, speaks to his highly independent nature.  

But how he treats Demelza -- that he'll cheat on her casually, while she knows?  Blech, that's the shithead Ross we got this season.  

If you haven't seen S1, you're missing out on seeing Ross when he was interesting, compelling & quite likeable, if maybe a tad bit too self-righteous for his own good.  I mean, sheesh, he had it all -- he was hot, had a great body & was a nice guy to boot.  Swoon.  S2 Ross?  I wanna punch him in the face -- just like Demelza did.

Ross is a flawed human being and he's not going to be the hero all the time. He's evolving and he'll likely redeem himself again and make himself despicable all over again. Forcing himself on Elizabeth was monstrous on so many levels. 

It was in the book and it's likely too significant not to be edited out wrt to the storyline.  He's a swashbuckler, and a scoundrel...he's a smuggler, a risk taker, and he is often on the wrong side of the law for all the right reasons, or at least that's how he justifies his actions.

The way our society views rape today vs back then or even 50 years ago is just going to make him irredeemable to a good many of us...and I totally get that.

[saber5055]

Hey, thanks everyone for the backstory on Ross et. al. I actually feel now that I've seen S1 thanks to Judy's remarkable talent for story-telling. Now I have a huge crush on Ross, which will be removed, no doubt, if he continues to be a jackass to Demelza. LOL! My PBS station ran all the previous episodes before starting S2, but no way did I want to watch this show. I know ... go ahead, kick me. Because now I can't wait for S3. Thanks again you guys.

Oh: Another question. What is Ross and the other men "smuggling" so that the army was trying to arrest him a while back?

[ScoobieDoobs]

3 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

Ross is a flawed human being and he's not going to be the hero all the time. He's evolving and he'll likely redeem himself again and make himself despicable all over again. Forcing himself on Elizabeth was monstrous on so many levels. 

It was in the book and it's likely too significant not to be edited out wrt to the storyline.  He's a swashbuckler, and a scoundrel...he's a smuggler, a risk taker, and he is often on the wrong side of the law for all the right reasons, or at least that's how he justifies his actions.

The way our society views rape today vs back then or even 50 years ago is just going to make him irredeemable to a good many of us...and I totally get that.

Well, Liz was pretty clearly into it -- after Ross first forced himself on her.  So there was no rape.  This was merely a 1940's (when the novels were published) idea of romantic seduction.  This idea of rape (or the not-so-subtle hint of rape) as being romantic or hot is unacceptable now.  So yeah, that part is terribly dated.  Except if there was no rape, is this dated aspect pertinent here?

After all, the next morning Liz was clearly expecting Ross to do something.  She told Agatha she felt taken & Ross offered nothing in return.  OK, so what was Liz expecting?  Did she think he would abruptly leave his wife & child (as well as his home & his only form of revenue -- his land, farm & mine) to take up & go live with her?  Or would she leave the comfort of her manor & move into Ross's dump?  Even if Miss Priss would deign to do such a thing, uh, what did she think would happen to Demelza & their son?  Ah, but Liz doesn't lower herself to think of anyone but Liz.

But Ross didn't even have the decency to say to Liz-- Look hun, I ain't leaving my wife for you, but let's keep this a friends-with-benefits thing & you promise not to marry George, kay?  Hey, I know that would be a pretty shitty thing to say, but he said nothing to her -- which was worse.

[dubbel zout]

Can someone please give me a brief recap of the first ten minutes? My PBS station/DVR/TWC wasn't working. I didn't see anything before Dwight taking care of Caroline's guardian and heard she was going to marry a lord, and then it picked up again with George haranguing Ross about the money he gave Elizabeth.

Ross is an asshole, but wow, does Aidan Turner look yummy as a Redcoat.

[Clawdette]

First ten minutes:

Ross & Demelza are still at odds
George removes Francis' portrait from Trenwith and installs fences to both enclose the property and shut down the established shortcuts people have been using for years.
Demelza is unimpressed with the coins Ross places in her hands as part of the mine earnings.

There you go.

[dubbel zout]

Thanks, Clawdette. 

ETA: I think I posted my query in the wrong thread. Oops.

Edited November 28, 2016 by dubbel zout

[ScoobieDoobs]

My PBS conked out & was on and off too.  

Edited November 28, 2016 by ScoobieDoobs

[magdalene]

4 minutes ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

My PBS conked out & was on and off too.  But oh, I love you, Demelza!  First she decks a-hole Ross just when I wanted to & now she tells Liz she hates her -- just like I want to.  You suck, Liz . . . you're really gonna let slimy George send your son away forever?  I so hope Georgie figures out the kid she's having is Ross's.

I liked Ross finally realizing (sheesh, it's about time, dude) he truly loved Demelza & not Liz -- & thereby earning Demelza's love again.  Very sweet.  If he had slunk off to join the army without even telling Demelza?  Man, that would have been the end of Ross (and this show) for me.  I've had quite enough of his a-hole routine this season.  So at least he tried to redeem himself & I was glad to see that.

Isn't it kinda hilarious how Agatha knows EVERYTHING that goes on in that house -- including Ross's & Liz's l'il late nite hookup?

Have no idea if Caroline & Dwight will work as a couple or if they'll now be excruciatingly boring, but it was really super sweet watching them get back together.

Wrong thread for the episode you are talking about - you want to be in episode 10 thread.

[ScoobieDoobs]

You're too quick -- I just corrected.

[Llywela]

6 hours ago, saber5055 said:

Oh: Another question. What is Ross and the other men "smuggling" so that the army was trying to arrest him a while back?

Alcohol, to avoid paying import duty. There'd have been some other goods as well, such as tea and silks, tobacco, etc, but smuggling was primarily alcohol. And it was big business in the area.

[saber5055]

Thanks Llywela. Smuggling booze makes perfect sense, something men are willing to die for!

[Arwen Evenstar]

Also, if a ship ran aground, the pickings were fair game under common law. That said, those on board if any survived would also need to be offered hospitality and medical intervention if the village doctor could be found.

The Warleggans tried to change that long held tradition.

[dubbel zout]

48 minutes ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

Also, if a ship ran aground, the pickings were fair game under common law.

This was a major plot point in the first season, and Ross went to bat for the men who were arrested. I think it was the first (or one of the first, at least) time we saw George and got an idea of his resentment for Ross.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Posting this here, because it has scenes that follow what happened at the end of last episode. 

I agree with those that stated how Elizabeth provoked and baited Ross. I think she wanted him to..."take charge" if you will. There was the "how dare you!" line in the episode that aired by my affiliate, but not the rest of the edited out scene.

I read everyone's comments here before I watched the episode, and when I did, I paid close attention to everything. And though I was hating Ross--for how he broke his vows to Demelza, and the whole emotional cheating that was going on up to this point, I don't think it was rape. I mean, she's enjoying what they're doing, if the arching of her neck and body are any indication. She's not fighting him..punching or slapping or trying to get away. And then there's the number of times she's remembering that night and how the show kept flashbacking to it, and the wistful look on her face as she was doing it. Maybe wistful is the wrong word. But it looked like she enjoyed it. 

Just my opinion based on what I saw on my screen. And no, I've never read the books so I don't know if it was portrayed as rape in them, and that the show decided to make it as more of the stupid trope of an 18th century man unable to control his suppressed/unrequited passion or whatever, and made the decision they did.

Edited December 10, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule
because spelling and capitalization are important!

[Tyro49]

On 11/21/2016 at 1:04 PM, ScoobieDoobs said:

OK, someone help me out here, please -- I got the really icky impression the attempted rape of Demelza (by 3 men, count 'em 3) was being played out here for laughs, chuckles & giggles.  Anyone else get this impression?  Um, what the what?  Is this coming straight outta the novel or is it the slant of this production?  Ugh.

Look, I get they're trying to throw at us that Demelza is Supergirl & she can get herself out of any jam, but still . . . blech to the tone of this stuff.

Btw, is there a reason for Caroline to show up again?  That is, other than flat, smirky line readings & posing for an audition for Miss Universe or a Crest White Strips commercial?

I liked it better in the older version where she conked him over the head with the chamber pot, then climbed out the window! (And that MacNeil was wearing a kilt!)

[rebecca dewinter]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 11:09 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Posting this here, because it has scenes that follow what happened at the end of last episode. 

I agree with those that stated how Elizabeth provoked and baited Ross. I think she wanted him to..."take charge" if you will. There was the "how dare you!" line in the episode that aired by my affiliate, but not the rest of the edited out scene.

I read everyone's comments here before I watched the episode, and when I did, I paid close attention to everything. And though I was hating Ross--for how he broke his vows to Demelza, and the whole emotional cheating that was going on up to this point, I don't think it was rape. I mean, she's enjoying what they're doing, if the arching of her neck and body are any indication. She's not fighting him..punching or slapping or trying to get away. And then there's the number of times she's remembering that night and how the show kept flashbacking to it, and the wistful look on her face as she was doing it. Maybe wistful is the wrong word. But it looked like she enjoyed it. 

Just my opinion based on what I saw on my screen. And no, I've never read the books so I don't know if it was portrayed as rape in them, and that the show decided to make it as more of the stupid trope of an 18th century man unable to control his suppressed/unrequited passion or whatever, and made the decision they did.

I believe the book version just did a "..." after he threw her on the bed so we don't really know what exactly happened after. Like Rhett carrying Scarlett up the stairs in Gone with the Wind (which even in 1939 during production of the film, people on set called that scene a rape scene but probably just considered it a "romantic" rape and was not seen as an irredeemable act by Rhett). Unfortunately this trope of forceful romantic encounters that involve women resisting but ultimately enjoying it continued for many decades - you can see it in films even in the 80s-90s (think Harrison Ford and Sean Young in Blade Runner, which is super uncomfortable to watch by today's standards). Most recently, in Spectre, James Bond more or less does the same thing to Monica Bellucci's character in a scene where he forcefully kisses her many times before she submits.

I don't know what they could've done with this scene to make it both palatable to modern day audiences + maintain the spirit of the book. I guess they could've shown her enthusiastic earlier but by today's standards, even if he forced the first kiss or just that he broke into the house, it would've been problematic.

[LJones41]

Quote

I believe the book version just did a "..." after he threw her on the bed so we don't really know what exactly happened after. 

Ross threw Elizabeth on the bed, while she was protesting.  Then he raped her.  The later books verified this, especially the last novel.