S07.E04: Service

[festivus]

1 hour ago, jsbt said:

Unfortunately there is always going to be a major element of the audience to cater to which reads and loves those fucking comics and Negan, and I doubt AMC or Kirkman are going to want to back down on servicing them.

Are comic readers really that big a portion of the audience? I'm honestly curious because I know a lot of people that watch this show and none of them have ever read the comics. 

[RustbeltWriter]

2 hours ago, jsbt said:

Kirkman has always been the problem with this show, and until this season I have found it profoundly underrated and unfairly maligned, especially in the Gimple era. Now the problem is just much more evident.

Why are we on Showrunner #3? Robert Kirkman. Who makes sure all the comic book canon and fan service shit gets in no matter what? Robert Kirkman. Is Gimple helpless? No Does he make bad choices all his own? Yes, sometimes. His brilliant ideas for montage (the Jessie flashbacks, Rick's ridiculous montage vision shit in the premiere this season) are horrible, and he is the showrunner and he makes mistakes. But I think nine times out of ten, Gimple has managed to make Kirkman's OTT comic book characters and plot twists which are ludicrous on the page - Abraham, Rosita, even the Governor, and yes, elements of Michonne early on - palatable, human, relatable and grounded in some truth. Jon Bernthal, Frank Darabont and Glen Mazzara did the same with Shane, who was pretty much a walking cliche in the comics. But the tenth time out of ten is Negan, and I always suspected he would be.

Negan in the book is real fun if you are a teenager, or an arrested adolescent male trapped in the body of a hyperbolic thirtysomething. He cusses non-stop, is vaguely redolent of someone imitating a Tarantino movie, and has a bat wrapped in barb wire that he calls a female name - supercool! If you have aged beyond 17, Negan instantly becomes much more tiresome to endure. I couldn't stand him in the comics. I think Jeffrey Dean Morgan is incredibly talented and is giving it his best and I don't want to see him go yet, but everything about Negan at present seems firmly rooted in the text, the comic book caricature. And all using him to what I'm sure Robert Kirkman would call 'the hilt' is doing is upping the ante on what is the comic book's worst aspect and what critics have rightly pilloried the show for this season: Repetitious, grinding, pointless misery/torture porn. It's why I stopped reading the comic long ago, but to Kirkman I'm sure this is just fantastic. It is nihilism in monotone, and it betrays what is at the core of what Scott Gimple has always seemed more interested in: Making a show about how people survive the apocalypse and build something new. But that doesn't sell to as many teenagers as gore and Best Kills of the Week. I happen to think the show has done a better job of becoming more than the sum of its text, and being consistent in quality, than people give it credit for. It's not perfect at all, it has missteps, but it's increased every year for me until now. 

I am sure the show will pull out of this slump and I hope Gimple will find a way to make Negan function better within the show he has built. I just wish this crap - and it is largely terrible any time the show turns towards Negan; I think the Carol and Daryl/Dwight episodes were not so surprisingly much better - wasn't proving the critics right about a show I think is so often unfairly dismissed. Because so much of it is just lousy right now.

Unfortunately there is always going to be a major element of the audience to cater to which reads and loves those fucking comics and Negan, and I doubt AMC or Kirkman are going to want to back down on servicing them.

I am loving this line of thought because it encapsulates every problem I have with this show. This ridiculous 90 minute episode was centered around Negan and his visit to Alexandria and it was just too much service to fans of the source material. The showrunners are just cramming Negan down our throats (no pun intended) and the ratings clearly show that viewers aren't impressed. I, too, stopped reading  the comics when they became torture porn and I can see Kirkman and Gimple making the same mistake because violence drives internet articles, which drive clicks and they obviously think any press is good press. In reality I think they are trashing a show that should be about people surviving in the remnants of civilization just so they can have people tune it to see whose head gets bashed in or what witty quips Negan will spout this week. By the way, that last line of Negan's to Rick? Completely unnecessary because the show is not a comic and it played horribly. The ratings seem to imply that people are finding it easier to watch other shows on Sunday night.

[qtpye]

I am accepting at this point that Negan is trying to be the ZA's answer to "What if  Fonzie and Andrew Dice Clay had a baby"?

They are trying to hard to push this supposed super villain down as awesome.  I mean we understand the obvious metaphors, but they just had to put in that line about shoving his dick down rick's throat?

I never thought I would say this...I miss the Governor.

[AngelaHunter]

I was pondering on the fact that we got 90 minutes (60 with commercials) and absolutely nothing happened. Nothing! Negan said he was coming to take their shit. He did so, and talked and taunted and postured non-stop for the entire time. That's all that happened. Oh, and Rosita and Spencer bickered. One solid hour of nothing.

[JackONeill]

And the hard cruel reality is we have to live with Negan through at least the end of this season, and more than likely, next season (at least the start of it.) I can see this season ending with the big battle that we all know is (no doubt) coming. Yet another "cliff hanger."

Having said that: How can there be any suspense to this show? Yet another reason (and there are so many others) that following the comic book is a mistake.

[mandolin]

3 hours ago, festivus said:

Are comic readers really that big a portion of the audience? I'm honestly curious because I know a lot of people that watch this show and none of them have ever read the comics. 

 I read the comics, but I would not define myself as a "comic reader." I watched the show first and then started the comics when the show was between seasons.  I think the show has done better in many instances than the comics, but the comics have also bettered the show in some cases (no Grady!). I don't mind when they diverge, and in this case sticking too closely to the source material and throwing all of the eggs in the Negan basket I think is proving to be a mistake. 

 You know, I can't think of an issue of the comics where major characters were left out. Or issues. That is something I really struggle with in the TV show.  

Edited November 16, 2016 by mandolin

[Timetoread]

2 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I was pondering on the fact that we got 90 minutes (60 with commercials) and absolutely nothing happened. Nothing! Negan said he was coming to take their shit. He did so, and talked and taunted and postured non-stop for the entire time. That's all that happened. Oh, and Rosita and Spencer bickered. One solid hour of nothing.

You know what would have been a really good episode.  If 60 of Negan's men showed up (without Negan - but with Daryl) and wordlessly packed up the trucks with everything (maybe let Dwight do the whole Olivia thing with the guns) and then leave - Dwight pausing to hand Rick a picture of Abraham's bashed head.   The devastated and confused Alexandrians (who were spared Negan reciting all the nursery rhymes he remembers from kindergarten) would be jumping all over Rick about why he was letting this happen or why can't they fight them and stuff like that.  Blame, bitch, moan.  But then, maybe when Rick has had too much, we see Andrew Lincoln turn in an Emmy worthy performance explaining his anguish over getting them into this and what has already been lost and what more there is left to lose.  And then, and only then, do the Alexandrians form a strength circle around Rick.  They hug it out.  They cry.  They lift two fingers in the air silently.  They will endure this somehow.  A mockingjay whistles above them.  Aaaand scene!

Ok, a tad melodramatic, I know.  But I can't - you don't understand, I simply CANNOT - take another Negan monologue.  It is making me not want to watch what was my favorite show.   This needs to go somewhere and fast or I this season ends the series for me. 

[Jordan27]

I liked the ep, but I have a big quibble.

Why not just arm everyone and just go to blasting when they showed up?

Would they die?  Maybe.  But, they would have the tactical advantage.

In this situation, better to die than to basically live as slaves

And Neegan's we take half, just meant we take whatever we want. 

That is no life.  Better just to pack up and leave.

[Scaeva]

21 hours ago, J----av said:

 This is a impossible idea. Negan showed up a week early , so there is no "schedule", and took all their guns. Also like is said before, Negan has Daryl and Rick would never risk blowing up his BFF with an RPG. IF (and thats a huge if) by some miracle Rick and his crew of TWO good fighters (one who is a bad shot) do take out all 50 of Negans men with him, what are they going to do when all of Negans men that were not there come for them? They would be fucked. If most TV watchers were Rick then they would be dead by now

It isn't an impossible idea at all.

If Rick had an OP watching the road there would be advance warning of any approach by Negan's group. You know Negan is going to come and the route he has to take to get to Alexandria, whether or not he sticks to the exact time he said he's going to come. That predictability leaves him wide open for an ambush.

Rick isn't military, but knowing the rough time table of an enemy's approach, how many men they have, and the route they are going to take would be any small unit commander's (or an insurgent's) wet dream. Numbers also aren't an issue with you've caught an enemy unaware, in the open, and on the flank. Military history is rife with examples of smaller forces defeating much larger ones under similar circumstances. That Negan's group aren't military professionals, but rather a loose mob of civilians held together only through desperation and fear of Negan, makes it rather likely as well that the response to the chaos and violence of an ambush would be panic. They're not going to respond with any degree of discipline or tactical precision, they're going to panic and become the unruly mob that they are. Those that aren't killed outright on the road, are going to try and make a run for it on foot, every man and woman for themself.

Negan actually blundered in going to Rick's group for the loot. A smarter move would be to have them come to a meeting at a place and time dictated by him, where he had complete control of the situation and could not be ambushed on the route. The drawback of course is that it leaves an opening for Rick's group to squirrel away some supplies or resources in Alexandria rather than pay in full, but from a pure security perspective it's better. Opting for the greedy plan of going to Alexandria to search it, ran the risk of ambush.

It would have been smart for Rick to have a rotating watch on that road 24/7 , with plan in place to ambush Negan's group on their approach. It would at the very least have been smarter than simply rolling over and allowing him to reach the gate and completely disarm the group when he arrives.

Daryl's life would probably be forfeit if Rick sprung an ambush, but that is a risk he should have taken. Rick had a greater responsibility towards all those who aren't hostages. By allowing Negan to disarm them, their survival is now entirely dependent on whether Negan is feeling magnanimous on the days he makes collection runs.

The people that Negan left at home wouldn't be much of concern, because the herd would have been greatly thinned on that road. If Negan was among the dead on the road and didn't manage to escape on foot, it's likely that group fractures anyway with him out of the picture. Even if he does survive he's lost a lot a people and has been given a serious blackeye. He's now less of a threat than he was before, and the defeat he suffered would be a powerful signal to every other group in the region that is being extorted by Negan, that the Saviors are not invincible and their rule over the region not absolute.

[ghoulina]

7 hours ago, festivus said:

Are comic readers really that big a portion of the audience? I'm honestly curious because I know a lot of people that watch this show and none of them have ever read the comics. 

No one I know in real life who watches this show has ever read the comics. But I see a lot of comic readers on SM and they seem to get really annoyed that people don't love Negan. They're like, "You guys should be happy, they really toned Negan down. But this is just how he is". When will people realize comics don't always translate to TV???

 

3 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I was pondering on the fact that we got 90 minutes (60 with commercials) and absolutely nothing happened. Nothing! Negan said he was coming to take their shit. He did so, and talked and taunted and postured non-stop for the entire time. That's all that happened. Oh, and Rosita and Spencer bickered. One solid hour of nothing.

Enid got her balloons back. So there's that. 

[AngelaHunter]

Just now, ghoulina said:

Enid got her balloons back. So there's that. 

This begs the question: Were they new balloons? They looked new, as though they hadn't yet been blown up. All the ones she had on the road when she (and we) had to hear Glenn's endless parables and sermonizing would have popped by now, right? If new, where is she getting them and why did she only get green ones? Thanks for mentioning that. It was the most interesting part of the ep.

[jsbt]

I have a feeling Negan's last line to Rick was another Precious Moment Kirkman fought for from his sacred text. It was tryhard in the comics and it's tryhard here.

[qtpye]

23 minutes ago, jsbt said:

I have a feeling Negan's last line to Rick was another Precious Moment Kirkman fought for from his sacred text. It was tryhard in the comics and it's tryhard here.

Well in that case, I feel like I just went through 90 minutes of Kirkman's dick down my throat.

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, Scaeva said:

Daryl's life would probably be forfeit if Rick sprung an ambush, but that is a risk he should have taken.

It is, but I don't think Rick is at the point where he's ready for that choice yet. 

I actually don't mind the last line. If anything, Negan's characterization is consistent, and it's consistently douche.

It was said upthread, but he's the dude who has to explain his joke to you because he thinks he's SO funny. *eyeroll* I do hope this is his undoing. 

[J----av]

10 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I guess I just don't see this as an "impossible" idea. It's a TV show. They fought their way through Terminus without any weapons; Carol single-handedly took out most of them. In my opinion, they haven't fought back NOT because they can't but because what is going on is being used as a plot point. If the story writers really wanted them to kick ass and slaughter all the Saviors with toothpicks when they walked through the front gate then they would. It wouldn't be any less believable than some of the other things they've gotten out of.

 Do people forget that Rick and his crew already DID try fighting back? They actually did pretty good taking out like 15 guys in their sleep. Then they got their asses kicked and ended up on their knees crying. Sure the writers COULD make it so Rick fights back and kicks Negan and his freaking armies asses. But why would they do that? It would be WAY more unrealistic taking out Negan and his 100 plus men then the 15- 20 man sized groups they have fought before. We have seen the "Rick gets into a bit of trouble then kills them all" story a million times already. Its good to see a group actually getting the better of him for once. Especially after how cocky he was in season 6. Rick fighting back and kicking eveyones ass again is even more boring. Sure what they are doing now is boring too (good idea, shitty execution), but at least its something new

[AngelaHunter]

36 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Well in that case, I feel like I just went through 90 minutes of Kirkman's dick down my throat.

Oh, god, I shouldn't say this, but I doubt you'll be choking.

[J----av]

2 hours ago, Timetoread said:

You know what would have been a really good episode.  If 60 of Negan's men showed up (without Negan - but with Daryl) and wordlessly packed up the trucks with everything (maybe let Dwight do the whole Olivia thing with the guns) and then leave - Dwight pausing to hand Rick a picture of Abraham's bashed head.   The devastated and confused Alexandrians (who were spared Negan reciting all the nursery rhymes he remembers from kindergarten) would be jumping all over Rick about why he was letting this happen or why can't they fight them and stuff like that.  Blame, bitch, moan.  But then, maybe when Rick has had too much, we see Andrew Lincoln turn in an Emmy worthy performance explaining his anguish over getting them into this and what has already been lost and what more there is left to lose.  And then, and only then, do the Alexandrians form a strength circle around Rick.  They hug it out.  They cry.  They lift two fingers in the air silently.  They will endure this somehow.  A mockingjay whistles above them.  Aaaand scene!

Ok, a tad melodramatic, I know.  But I can't - you don't understand, I simply CANNOT - take another Negan monologue.  It is making me not want to watch what was my favorite show.   This needs to go somewhere and fast or I this season ends the series for me. 

Negan showing up and talking is fine, it just didn't need to be the whole episode. If they cut back his monologue time and didn't try shoehorn in the way he talks in the comics he could actually be a great villain. The show needs to stop with these one story only episodes (although i do feel in the fist episode it was necessary) because the writers are not talented enough to hold peoples attention on just one story an episode.

[AngelaHunter]

18 hours ago, J----av said:

There is no Vince Gilligan, David Chase or Matthew Weiner with the show.

I had to go back to this, because you said a mouthful. David Chase was able to create one of the most riveting scenes in the entire Sopranos series (if not in episodic TV) consisting of just two people (Tony and Dr. Melfi) sitting in chairs, talking, while Tony told her about "Jimmy Smash." You are so right that the writers of TWD are incapabable of this kind of subtle, nuanced writing and that action must take precedence over dialogue. They just don't have that kind of talent. For me, the most captivating, compelling moments of TWD (and what drew me back to the series) was the Se03 opener, in which no words at all were spoken. To me, that was the highlight of this show and it's just gone downhill from there. They now have a character who talks and talks and talks, and everything he says is basically nonsense. I never saw or heard of JDM before TWD. If he's indeed a good actor, I feel sorry for him in that whatever talent he has is being wasted by turning him into a cardboard cutout.

[Wryly]

2 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I had to go back to this, because you said a mouthful. David Chase was able to create one of the most riveting scenes in the entire Sopranos series (if not in episodic TV) consisting of just two people (Tony and Dr. Melfi) sitting in chairs, talking, while Tony told her about "Jimmy Smash." You are so right that the writers of TWD are incapabable of this kind of subtle, nuanced writing and that action must take precedence over dialogue. They just don't have that kind of talent. For me, the most captivating, compelling moments of TWD (and what drew me back to the series) was the Se03 opener, in which no words at all were spoken. To me, that was the highlight of this show and it's just gone downhill from there. They now have a character who talks and talks and talks, and everything he says is basically nonsense. I never saw or heard of JDM before TWD. If he's indeed a good actor, I feel sorry for him in that whatever talent he has is being wasted by turning him into a cardboard cutout.

I enjoyed him in the other things I've seen him in. But I'm getting worried this role is going to ruin him for me. At least for as long as I'm watching him in this.

I read somewhere that Negan supposedly uses his mouth to get people to underestimate him. I wish they would express that more in the show.

[toodywoody]

Between Negan and Matt on Teen Mom, I just can't. 

My problem is I don't want to see Negan strutting around talking non fucking stop. I want to see the people that have been on the fucking show for the last 6 years deal with the death of two of their family members. I could give two shits about Negan and how hot Dwight's wife is. 

Making most of the episodes revolve around a dick swinging prick isn't working for me. 

I want The Kingdom, Hilltop and Alexandria to all coordinate their weekly or monthly or whenever Negans shit heads are showing up and blow them up. That would be three groups blown up and when they send more have look outs and blow them up. 

I liked the Kingdom episode because it showed growth and hope for the human race. Negan can't keep bashing people's skulls in because he is going to run out of worker bees. 

So I will watch the Hilltop and Kingdom episodes and Rick and crew when Negan isn't there. Just too much scene chewing and not enough of the people we have been watching the last 6 years. 

[J----av]

2 hours ago, Scaeva said:

It isn't an impossible idea at all.

If Rick had an OP watching the road there would be advance warning of any approach by Negan's group. You know Negan is going to come and the route he has to take to get to Alexandria, whether or not he sticks to the exact time he said he's going to come. That predictability leaves him wide open for an ambush.

Rick isn't military, but knowing the rough time table of an enemy's approach, how many men they have, and the route they are going to take would be any small unit commander's (or an insurgent's) wet dream. Numbers also aren't an issue with you've caught an enemy unaware, in the open, and on the flank. Military history is rife with examples of smaller forces defeating much larger ones under similar circumstances. That Negan's group aren't military professionals, but rather a loose mob of civilians held together only through desperation and fear of Negan, makes it rather likely as well that the response to the chaos and violence of an ambush would be panic. They're not going to respond with any degree of discipline or tactical precision, they're going to panic and become the unruly mob that they are. Those that aren't killed outright on the road, are going to try and make a run for it on foot, every man and woman for themself.

Negan actually blundered in going to Rick's group for the loot. A smarter move would be to have them come to a meeting at a place and time dictated by him, where he had complete control of the situation and could not be ambushed on the route. The drawback of course is that it leaves an opening for Rick's group to squirrel away some supplies or resources in Alexandria rather than pay in full, but from a pure security perspective it's better. Opting for the greedy plan of going to Alexandria to search it, ran the risk of ambush.

It would have been smart for Rick to have a rotating watch on that road 24/7 , with plan in place to ambush Negan's group on their approach. It would at the very least have been smarter than simply rolling over and allowing him to reach the gate and completely disarm the group when he arrives.

Daryl's life would probably be forfeit if Rick sprung an ambush, but that is a risk he should have taken. Rick had a greater responsibility towards all those who aren't hostages. By allowing Negan to disarm them, their survival is now entirely dependent on whether Negan is feeling magnanimous on the days he makes collection runs.

The people that Negan left at home wouldn't be much of concern, because the herd would have been greatly thinned on that road. If Negan was among the dead on the road and didn't manage to escape on foot, it's likely that group fractures anyway with him out of the picture. Even if he does survive he's lost a lot a people and has been given a serious blackeye. He's now less of a threat than he was before, and the defeat he suffered would be a powerful signal to every other group in the region that is being extorted by Negan, that the Saviors are not invincible and their rule over the region not absolute.

 SO many things that could go wrong and a lot of maybes that would be risking all their lives. Seriously, do you not see how weak Ricks crew is right now? He doesn't have Daryl, Glenn, Heath, Morgan, Carol, Sasha, Abe, Maggie, Tara with him. Pretty much everyone else at Alexandria beside Rosita, Michonne and MAYBE Carl and Spencer, has shown to hardly be able to even handle a weapon. Plus like i said, Rick didn't know when Negan was coming and now its too late since they have no guns. And Rick doesn't even know where Negan's main base is, he only knows where one of his smaller outposts is. How is he supposed to know where Negan is coming from? They are not ambushing one or two trucks. They are ambushing 4 or 5 huge trucks and a bunch of cars that are probably not bunched together. Good luck taking them out with Rosita, Michonne and a few other useless people from Alexandria. And ok, MAYBE they do take them out. Simon just takes over for Negan and now Rick and his TWO useful fighters have to take on Simon and the other 50 plus men. Fighting back right now likely ends up with them all dead. Gabriel and freaking Eugene are two of Ricks top men right now. That just shows you how weak and depleted Ricks crew is right now   

 

 Also it would be terrible, inconsistent with his character, writing to have Rick sacrifice Daryl. He just lost Glenn and Abe and its out of character for him to just kill off his best friend (yeah i know, Shane, but completely different)

[J----av]

7 minutes ago, toodywoody said:

Between Negan and Matt on Teen Mom, I just can't. 

My problem is I don't want to see Negan strutting around talking non fucking stop. I want to see the people that have been on the fucking show for the last 6 years deal with the death of two of their family members. I could give two shits about Negan and how hot Dwight's wife is. 

Making most of the episodes revolve around a dick swinging prick isn't working for me. 

I want The Kingdom, Hilltop and Alexandria to all coordinate their weekly or monthly or whenever Negans shit heads are showing up and blow them up. That would be three groups blown up and when they send more have look outs and blow them up. 

I liked the Kingdom episode because it showed growth and hope for the human race. Negan can't keep bashing people's skulls in because he is going to run out of worker bees. 

So I will watch the Hilltop and Kingdom episodes and Rick and crew when Negan isn't there. Just too much scene chewing and not enough of the people we have been watching the last 6 years. 

 

 With what? They don't have any guns at Hilltop or Alexandria and even when Alexandria did, they only had one RPG shot left. Does the Kingdom have allot of guns? Doubt it since they seem to like using spears. They have nothing to "blow them up" with. Its not like they have an endless supply of grenade launchers and RPGs lying around

[piequinn35]

Boring episode, good for Gabriel to fake Maggie's death, what if Negan shows at the hilltop and sees Maggie there? or Maggie will hide every time the saviors show up.

[J----av]

On 11/14/2016 at 2:21 PM, AngelaHunter said:

And what's with Negan showing off by bashing in walker heads? Is everyone supposed to be impressed by that, when they've all killed walkers in every way and form imaginable? He's all like, "Hey watch me! Okay, okay - here we go. Are you guys watching? WATCH!" I mean, everyone already knows he can smash skulls with it.

 Looked like it was a threat and to remind Rick of what he did to Glenn/Abe and what he would do again to someone he cares about if Rick stepped out of line. When Negan was leaving Rick looked like he was contemplating bashing Negan's head in until Negan crushed the walkers head in the same motion he killed Abe. The one he killed when he first got there he swung in the same motion he killed Glenn

Edited November 16, 2016 by J----av

[piequinn35]

30 minutes ago, toodywoody said:

 

I want The Kingdom, Hilltop and Alexandria to all coordinate their weekly or monthly or whenever Negans shit heads are showing up and blow them up. That would be three groups blown up and when they send more have look outs and blow them up. 

Or just use sniper (if they have one) when they show up at the gate.

Bring 10k in twd :))

[Timetoread]

1 hour ago, J----av said:

Negan showing up and talking is fine, it just didn't need to be the whole episode. If they cut back his monologue time and didn't try shoehorn in the way he talks in the comics he could actually be a great villain. The show needs to stop with these one story only episodes (although i do feel in the fist episode it was necessary) because the writers are not talented enough to hold peoples attention on just one story an episode.

Not just time but content.  All he does is talk smack.  If he gave information, I'd listen.  Now all I hear is "Blah...blah...blah... I know you are but what am I...*expletive**nursery rhyme**explain unfunny joke gotten off of a bazooka wrapper*.

I'd say the most poetic justice for him would be to cut off his arms and sew his mouth shut and let him die of starvation in one of his cells with endless rounds of Taylor Swift playing.  While alive he can't talk or eat.  When dead, he still can't eat.

[J----av]

1 minute ago, Timetoread said:

Not just time but content.  All he does is talk smack.  If he gave information, I'd listen.  Now all I hear is "Blah...blah...blah... I know you are but what am I...*expletive**nursery rhyme**explain unfunny joke gotten off of a bazooka wrapper*.

I'd say the most poetic justice for him would be to cut off his arms and sew his mouth shut and let him die of starvation in one of his cells with endless rounds of Taylor Swift playing.  While alive he can't talk or eat.  When dead, he still can't eat.

The gist of what he is saying is fine. We just don't need all the bad jokes and catchphrases. Cut it down 70% and he is a good villain 

[Wryly]

Though I hate Negan and the seemingly unending dominance displays, I honestly like humbled Rick better than screaming-in-the-streets Rick, or "if this place doesn't do what we want, we'll just take it" Rick. I just wish he hadn't completely given up, as he seems to have. Ideally he would have an attitude of "let's play dead and start thinking of smart ways to strike back."

But overall, he seems more thoughtful, with a greater sense of responsibility, more aware of the dangers and consequences of violent action. It seems like he feels Glenn and Abraham's deaths are on him. It's a more likable Rick, to me. However, I'm not sure it was worth it. The loss of Glenn and Abraham, and the sheer annoyance factor of Negan and his showboating, are a very high price to pay for it.

It was interesting when Negan finds the video Deanna took of Rick when he first arrived in Alexandria. It made me think, "How would that Rick have handled Negan?" He'd probably have gotten more people killed.

[J----av]

2 minutes ago, Wryly said:

Though I hate Negan and the seemingly unending dominance displays, I honestly like humbled Rick better than screaming-in-the-streets Rick, or "if this place doesn't do what we want, we'll just take it" Rick. I just wish he hadn't completely given up, as he seems to have. Ideally he would have an attitude of "let's play dead and start thinking of smart ways to strike back."

But overall, he seems more thoughtful, with a greater sense of responsibility, more aware of the dangers and consequences of violent action. It seems like he feels Glenn and Abraham's deaths are on him. It's a more likable Rick, to me. However, I'm not sure it was worth it. The loss of Glenn and Abraham, and the sheer annoyance factor of Negan and his showboating, are a very high price to pay for it.

It was interesting when Negan finds the video Deanna took of Rick when he first arrived in Alexandria. It made me think, "How would that Rick have handled Negan?" He'd probably have gotten more people killed.

 "That Rick" was the the one that thought he could take on Negan last season that got Glenn and Abe killed

[Timetoread]

2 minutes ago, J----av said:

 "That Rick" was the the one that thought he could take on Negan last season that got Glenn and Abe killed

In his defense, Rick was working on crappy intel.  Daryl, who encountered the bikers suggested just taking him out and referred to him as "the boogeyman".   Daryl and Rosita also failed to reveal how these dudes are all over the surrounding woods and pop up out of thin air to kill folks.  And Jesus, who I trust as much as I could run after him, did not describe a group this massive and powerful.  Rick the cop, thought he was dealing with a garden variety bad guy/gangster.  That he CAN deal with.  He didn't know the full story.

[Wryly]

1 minute ago, J----av said:

 "That Rick" was the the one that thought he could take on Negan last season that got Glenn and Abe killed

Eh, I don't know. He seemed even more raw and feral when he first arrived.

Considering the enemies Rick's group has defeated in the past, and how hard it is to believe the sheer size of Negan's power base, I don't think Rick was totally insane to try it. Like Alexandria, Hilltop seemed like a peaceful community of mostly civilian types who hadn't really made a professional, badass effort to fight back.

[Skyfall]

On 11/13/2016 at 11:06 PM, AngelaHunter said:

"You see this, Daryl?" says Negan, waving a bottle of Pantene Smooth 'n Sleek in Daryl's face. "This. IS. WHAT. YOU GET... NEXT!"

With dick somewhere in there and not cock or shaft or just something better...

[Wryly]

2 minutes ago, ElleMo said:

So,  the writers take away from this scene is the oral sex part?

I would like Negan as a character if he actually said this.  All the boring stuff he has been saying, all the things from the comics, yet they leave the most important part of this passage out.   --  (In case someone comments that yes, he did say this, I will admit now that I have tuned out a lot of Negan's monologues and could have missed it. (sort of how I tune out my hubby).  And this is coming from the JDM fan)

I have yet to hear him say anything as interesting or intelligent as what I quoted from the comics. It did a good job of blending vulgarity, profanity, perceptiveness, and a shrewd understanding of power. I cannot say that about anything I have seen from Negan so far in the show.

[ByTor]

Quote

I'm not going to turn you into a martyr. The name of the game is breaking you in front of them.

Just those two lines would have been perfect, but no, we can't have nice things :(

[CletusMusashi]

On 11/15/2016 at 5:46 PM, Timetoread said:

I keep offering Gimple my services.  The material concept is so rich, they have the actors, and they have the viewers, this could easily be a ten year show.  They have the ideas but very little imagination about how to pull them off as a drama.  It's like they write just to make it to the next big moment when the strength of the show is in the little moments - the humanity that happens between calamity.  I'll stop myself from going into the magic that was Richonne but I'll add others that were just as touching: Daryl and Carol before it became a ship.  Honestly I would have loved to see a long version of Merle and Michonne.  Maggie and Glenn before they became disgusting.  I loved the ONE episode we got of Sasha and Bob.  I think it is natural for these humans to connect and bond over their damage and in spite of it.  We need to explore their personalities.  Like for instance, Eugene had a thing for Rosita.  It would have been cool for him to take Abe to task for hurting her.  It would allow him some growth.  It would show him not just as a scared boy but as a man who wants things men want.  It would also have allowed Abe to have cleaned up the ugly break he had with Rosie.  I swear I could write a whole secondary series on just the moments they let slip by.  I love this show, but I resent it sometimes too.  It really could be better.  Imagine this show written like the first 3 seasons of Battlestar Galactica.  OMG!

How about just writing it like the first 3 seasons of TWD?

[Dobian]

Finally got around to watching this.  Boy, what a chore that was to get through.  First of all, I'm tired of the strange and variable run times for these episodes.  This one was 1:25.  How about the producers hire some people who know how to edit?  Then the stupidity of it all.  This town was armed to the teeth and Negan shows up with a small contingent including Dwight and his main henchmen.  They could have blown the shit out of him, taken their guns and vehicles, and the Saviors would have been in total disarray without their leadership.  Okay, Daryl probably would have been toast, but the upside was huge.  Now they are totally defenseless and Rick is completely emasculated.

And of course we're forced to watch almost 90 minutes of Negan mugging and monologuing and bullying everyone, Dwight being his usual dick self, pedo goon drooling on Enid.  It's like they aren't just harassing Rick's people, they're harassing the audience too because we have to suffer through this boorish crap.  This isn't entertaining at all.  It's only purpose is to make everyone so miserable watching and hating Negan and Dwight and the rest of those turds that we'll all be satisfied and jumping for joy in the end to see the tables turned on them.  Nope, it will be nothing more than relief that this shitty season is finally done.

What's the point of even staying there, the nice houses?  There are houses everywhere.  You either man-up take out Negan or move on.  Pack your supplies into your cars and drive off into the night.  They've done it before.  No, they'd rather stay there and make sure they give Negan some cool stuff once a week so he doesn't kill one of him.  That just makes so much sense.  Good grief this show is maddening to watch now.

This show is really becoming a waste of time for me, not sure if I'll make it through the season.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Dobian

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, ElleMo said:

I would like Negan as a character if he actually said this.  All the boring stuff he has been saying, all the things from the comics, yet they leave the most important part of this passage out.  

It would have explained his strategy, yes, but I'm not sure that I, personally, would like Negan any better because of it, because the comic's lines are pretty much saying Negan wants to break Rick in front of the rest of the group as a show of power - which I already knew anyway. The rest of what Negan does in the show - expecting his people to kneel when he passes, restricting access to the women of his "harem," burning mattresses that might actually allow some of his people a comfortable place to sleep, punishing any minor infraction from his group with physical maiming - already points to Negan doing what he does to ensure his own power. For me, I didn't really need him to then explain his strategy also. (His explaining his jokes is already annoying.)

And for me, that the lines of the comic show that he has strategy and is smart doesn't really change that he's an insufferable asshat who rapes women, kills children, and tortures people to feed his own ego. I pretty much already decided that I don't care why he does it, so I guess I also don't care about an explanation of how he does it either. Basically, I just want his annoying ass to go away.

There isn't going to be a Darth Vader slowly turning into a monster story to explain away Negan's motivation (and the Darth Vader story was already pushing it in terms of motivation), so no matter what they come up with, I'm pretty much going to see Negan as a limited, totally unnuanced, character anyway, so... 

[Wryly]

Though I have my complaints, I'm not on the edge of bailing like several of you seem to be. It sounds like some people here have become so fed up with the show that watching it is more of an irritant than entertainment at this point.

Personally I'm too interested in what will happen when Alexandria and the Kingdom -- and therefore Rick and Ezekiel -- finally meet. I would love a unique and gradual friendship to bloom between those two. Don't ask me why; I know it seems like a random relationship to want developed. I just think Rick needs someone like Ezekiel in his life. I want to see Rick talk to someone who is still trying to keep his people's hopes alive. Rick stopped trying to do that a long time ago. He just settled for keeping them alive, hope or no hope. Because keeping them alive was an exhausting enough challenge all on its own. Only lately has Rick started to talk about hope again over Carl's sickbed, and then Negan just steamrollered in and squashed all that to hell. I want someone like Ezekiel to swoop in and tell Rick it wasn't wrong to talk of those things. He was headed in the right direction.

I also feel like the writers are going to have Alexandria, the Kingdom, and Hilltop eventually unite against Negan. That will be worth seeing. All his subjugated subjects rebelling. I'm just gonna crank up "We Ain't Gonna Take It Anymore" by Twisted Sister and watch the hell out of all that payback. Viva La Resistance!

[ganesh]

Negan wanting to "break" Rick in front of everyone was clear in the premiere, so I don't think the added dialogue is helpful. I don't know if I'd call it strategy though. We don't need more dialogue either. Really. 

[ByTor]

It wasn't clear to everyone in Alexandria, only to those present during the clubbing of Abe & Glenn.  That, along with "I'm not going to turn you into a martyr" would help to drive home why Rick is safe from being murdered.  All Negan does is blather on and on and on and zzzzzzz....  If he's going to talk, he might as well say something of value :)

[Gobi]

It seems that Dwight wants to be Darryl. He took his crossbow, he's wearing his jacket, and now he has his motorcycle. I think Dwight's hair has even gotten dirtier.

[jsbt]

17 hours ago, J----av said:

The gist of what he is saying is fine. We just don't need all the bad jokes and catchphrases. Cut it down 70% and he is a good villain 

Good luck getting that past Kirkman.

I'm not bailing, but the show is definitely mired down with this tryhard OTT macho shit from the point when I completely tuned out on the comics (I had lost most interest with the grimdark ending of the prison arc in the text - I felt that was handled in superior fashion on the show, as was the Governor though everyone complains about that). Gimple usually is able to get a handle on Kirkman's source material and make it viable before long, but this is really overripe already. I like the stuff with Ezekiel much more than I'd expected, I definitely am here to see Rick and co. fight back against Negan, and I wouldn't mind a similar exploration of the Saviors as we had last week with Dwight - I thought that was interesting stuff, as was Negan's role in it - but Negan just jawing on and on and giving Kirkman and the kids their fan service doesn't interest me.

Edited November 17, 2016 by jsbt

[Timetoread]

I think I could live with some aspects of the Negan story if it featured something more than just Negan pontificating and his thugs being thugs.  I would like to see , what I know to be true, that you can't keep the human spirit down.  What I loved about the Kingdom is that in spite of Negan, everybody was happy and just living their lives and I loved their petty little tainted meat trick they are playing on Negan.  The tainted pork may not make them sick, but at least they don't have to use their food to feed those hogs.

I want to see people in our group actually TALK to each other.  I wanted to see the funeral they held for Abe and Glenn.  I want to hear the whispered questions about how Sasha and Maggie are faring and if the baby is ok. I want to see Michonne, Rick and Carl find their smiles because Judith is taking her first steps.  Or the unlikely friendship that may happen between FPP and Rick .  I think it would be fun to watch Rick and Michonne start cracking up when they try to get frisky in their new "bed".  And I'd very much like to see them start THINKING about this situation to show that they are down, but not out. But now it is all misery all the time.  No talking, just glowering.  And frankly I am just bored with it.

[mandolin]

4 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

I think I could live with some aspects of the Negan story if it featured something more than just Negan pontificating and his thugs being thugs.  I would like to see , what I know to be true, that you can't keep the human spirit down.  What I loved about the Kingdom is that in spite of Negan, everybody was happy and just living their lives and I loved their petty little tainted meat trick they are playing on Negan.  The tainted pork may not make them sick, but at least they don't have to use their food to feed those hogs.

I want to see people in our group actually TALK to each other.  I wanted to see the funeral they held for Abe and Glenn.  I want to hear the whispered questions about how Sasha and Maggie are faring and if the baby is ok. I want to see Michonne, Rick and Carl find their smiles because Judith is taking her first steps.  Or the unlikely friendship that may happen between FPP and Rick .  I think it would be fun to watch Rick and Michonne start cracking up when they try to get frisky in their new "bed".  And I'd very much like to see them start THINKING about this situation to show that they are down, but not out. But now it is all misery all the time.  No talking, just glowering.  And frankly I am just bored with it.

Nailed it. 

[jsbt]

I think the Rick/Michonne scene at the end of the episode was the most I perked up all night. That and Rick shaming Spencer.

[J----av]

2 hours ago, Timetoread said:

I think I could live with some aspects of the Negan story if it featured something more than just Negan pontificating and his thugs being thugs.  I would like to see , what I know to be true, that you can't keep the human spirit down.  What I loved about the Kingdom is that in spite of Negan, everybody was happy and just living their lives and I loved their petty little tainted meat trick they are playing on Negan.  The tainted pork may not make them sick, but at least they don't have to use their food to feed those hogs.

I want to see people in our group actually TALK to each other.  I wanted to see the funeral they held for Abe and Glenn.  I want to hear the whispered questions about how Sasha and Maggie are faring and if the baby is ok. I want to see Michonne, Rick and Carl find their smiles because Judith is taking her first steps.  Or the unlikely friendship that may happen between FPP and Rick .  I think it would be fun to watch Rick and Michonne start cracking up when they try to get frisky in their new "bed".  And I'd very much like to see them start THINKING about this situation to show that they are down, but not out. But now it is all misery all the time.  No talking, just glowering.  And frankly I am just bored with it.

 Agree with most of what you said except this. Right now Rick needs to be completely broken

[Raven1707]

I  went back and looked at the Cable Live + Same Day ratings for the first four episodes of Seasons 5 & 6, so that I could compare those numbers to where we are in Season 7 so far:

Season 5
10-12-14 “No Sanctuary” 17.3 million
10-19-14 “Strangers” 15.143 million
10-26-14 “Four Walls and a Roof” 13.801 million
11-02-14 “Slabtown” 14.518 million

Season 6
10-11-15 “First Time Again” 14.633 million viewers
10-18-15 “JSS” 12.183 million viewers
10-25-15 “Thank You” 13.143 million viewers
11-01-15 “Here’s Not Here” 13.339 million viewers

Season 7
10-23-16 “The Day Will Come When You Won’t Be” 17.029 million
10-30-16 “The Well” 12.455 million
11-06-16 “The Cell” 11.721 million
11-13-16 “Service” 11.402 million

It could very well be just the usual viewer attrition as a show ages, but if I were the producer, I'd take note.

[Timetoread]

1 hour ago, J----av said:

 Agree with most of what you said except this. Right now Rick needs to be completely broken

Why?

[mandolin]

 Of course, they just finished filming season seven according to the Senoia website  so not much they can do at this point. 

[Timetoread]

3 minutes ago, Raven1707 said:

It could very well be just the usual viewer attrition as a show ages, but if I were the producer, I'd take note.

I do think attrition is part of it.  But I also think that the show is feeling both dismal and repetitive - which is not entertainment.  A new and escalating big bad every season gets old.  Thirdly, for those who got a charge out of the badassery that was The Ringleader, The Archer, The Samarai, and The Kid, the concept of neutering them is a turnoff.  We WANT to see them do what they do.  Daryl was grimey as hell but man did he wield a mean rocket launcher.  Carl may be angsty and going through puberty, but that's not your average kid.  Michonne has a samurai sword - what the hell else is there to say after that?  And Rick, well Rick is the Energizer Bunny of the Apocalypse, except of the murder variety.  Baddest Mofo out there!  But all we've seen for four straight episodes (five if you stretch back to the finale) is all of them crying.  Really show?  Really?