Tabloids: Gossip, Innuendo, and Déclassé

[b2H]

On 11/17/2019 at 3:21 PM, Umbelina said:

I do think she was naive (again she was SO young compared to him) and I think she loved him and honestly expected happiness and a close family.

For me, she also had no inside support from the BRF to understand how to work through all of this.  It's not unreasonable to believe the same thing happened to Meagan and Harry, only Harry wasn't willing to stand by and watch the woman he loved get chewed up and spat out by either his family or the press.  I'm ok with them getting out and not having to deal with it.  As many have written, when comparing this to the abdication, it's highly unlikely as sixth in line to the throne that Harry is doing anything untoward.  He loves his wife.  Good on him.

[Scarlett45]

On 2/23/2020 at 8:06 PM, PeterPirate said:

Charles Dance narrates a mini-series on Netflix called "Rise of Empires: Ottoman".  It's about the siege and conquest of Constantinople by the Ottoman Empire, which also marked the end of the Roman Empire.  

Just. Saying.

I am going to watch that now! Thank you. 

[Fireball]

Anyone else feel like a lot of the discussion regarding Harry, Meghan, + the royal family that was going on in the History thread would be better posted here? Just me? I responded in the history thread and I think maybe I should have posted here.. 

So main reason I'm posting here is: 

I have noticed a distinct change in tone on "articles" that show up on the yahoo and bing homepage regarding Harry & Meghan and William & Kate, and the royal family. It was positive William & Kate, and the royal family and negative Harry & Meghan. Now it's switched and it's positive Harry & Meghan and negative William & Kate, and the royal family.

I put articles in quotes because the things that show up on yahoo and bing remind me of tabloids at checkouts in stores.  

[Espy]

3 hours ago, Fireball said:

I have noticed a distinct change in tone on "articles" that show up on the yahoo and bing homepage regarding Harry & Meghan and William & Kate, and the royal family. It was positive William & Kate, and the royal family and negative Harry & Meghan. Now it's switched and it's positive Harry & Meghan and negative William & Kate, and the royal family.

Yes I've noticed this lately too in the tabloids. Not so much positive about Harry and Meghan, but more snarky and negative towards the Cambridges. Think it is to do with William hiding his coronavirus diagnosis, the tabloids feel like once they were on the inside with William, receiving leaks and inside info from his camp etc, and now they're sulking because they were lied to.

[Ambrosefolly]

I have to say, I have a bit of a soft spot for Prince Charles. For one, I know what it is like to grow up without any real charisma and being a super awkward person. While I totally understand Diana almost scorched earth way she went against Charles and by extension the Royal Family, I can sympathize with Charles' actions when it came to marrying Diana. My own parent's had an arranged marriage (I am Indian) and my dad is 8 years older than my mother. There is enormous pressure to hit milestones at certain ages especially in very traditionally cultures and my dad was a little older than most men when he married. Charles was hitting 30 and they needed him to produce heirs and he couldn't find a single girl that he could get serious with. I can imagine the death of William of Gloucester (died at 30) probably added to the anxiety by reminding them the fragility of life. I really feel that both Charles and Diana were both getting really shitty advice from their families. I wouldn't doubt it when Charles was showing serious interest in Diana, Diana's family was also  pushing her to accept his proposal when it came, in order to elevate the Spencers even higher in having a future Queen consort and future kings and queens descended from the family. That and Diana's own naive infatuation with Charles probably damped down her own instincts about marrying him. My thinking is there was a lot of self delusion from both of them to talk themselves into walking down the aisle. 

I think it when came to his own sons, especially William, it looks like he too was also trying to correct the mistakes he made with Diana (with Willam's reluctance in marry Kate stemming in watching his parent's marriage implode). I have heard reports that he told William in 2007 that William either needed to get serious or cut Kate loose so she could move on with her life, which ended causing the break up between the two of them. I don't think it was bad advice and it seemed the break up helped their relationship. It made William realize that Kate was really good for him and I think on Kate's end, it helped her decide that being with William was worth the headache of the media, something that Diana never got in deciding to marry Charles.

[andromeda331]

39 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I have to say, I have a bit of a soft spot for Prince Charles. For one, I know what it is like to grow up without any real charisma and being a super awkward person. While I totally understand Diana almost scorched earth way she went against Charles and by extension the Royal Family, I can sympathize with Charles' actions when it came to marrying Diana. My own parent's had an arranged marriage (I am Indian) and my dad is 8 years older than my mother. There is enormous pressure to hit milestones at certain ages especially in very traditionally cultures and my dad was a little older than most men when he married. Charles was hitting 30 and they needed him to produce heirs and he couldn't find a single girl that he could get serious with. I can imagine the death of William of Gloucester (died at 30) probably added to the anxiety by reminding them the fragility of life. I really feel that both Charles and Diana were both getting really shitty advice from their families. I wouldn't doubt it when Charles was showing serious interest in Diana, Diana's family was also  pushing her to accept his proposal when it came, in order to elevate the Spencers even higher in having a future Queen consort and future kings and queens descended from the family. That and Diana's own naive infatuation with Charles probably damped down her own instincts about marrying him. My thinking is there was a lot of self delusion from both of them to talk themselves into walking down the aisle. 

I think it when came to his own sons, especially William, it looks like he too was also trying to correct the mistakes he made with Diana (with Willam's reluctance in marry Kate stemming in watching his parent's marriage implode). I have heard reports that he told William in 2007 that William either needed to get serious or cut Kate loose so she could move on with her life, which ended causing the break up between the two of them. I don't think it was bad advice and it seemed the break up helped their relationship. It made William realize that Kate was really good for him and I think on Kate's end, it helped her decide that being with William was worth the headache of the media, something that Diana never got in deciding to marry Charles.

I don't like Charles. But I agree with everything you said.

Edited November 15, 2020 by andromeda331

[qtpye]

https://tomandlorenzo.com/2020/11/pop-style-opinionfest-the-life-and-legacy-of-princess-diana/#.X7EcDshKiUk

 

Great analysis of Diana.

[Kiddvideo]

I’m on the 5th episode of the 4th season. Maybe because this is modern history it feels much more like a tabloid or news magazine format than previous seasons. I like history, but apart from the tiaras and jewels, I’m not much of a BRF fan girl. I’ll finish the series, but I’m not certain if it’ll get more interesting for me.

[merrick715]

10 hours ago, Espy said:

Yes I've noticed this lately too in the tabloids. Not so much positive about Harry and Meghan, but more snarky and negative towards the Cambridges. Think it is to do with William hiding his corona virus diagnosis, the tabloids feel like once they were on the inside with William, receiving leaks and inside info from his camp etc, and now they're sulking because they were lied to.

I'm sure William's decision to not disclose his Coronavirus diagnosis played a role in the uptick in the more critical coverage of the Cambridges, but I also think it's just the nature of the tabloids, It's just cyclical.  A perfect example of  this is the way the tabloids covered Sarah Ferguson and Diana in the mid to late eighties. At first, the tabloids raved about  Sarah and criticized Diana for not being more like her, and then the coverage changed to why can't Sarah be more like Diana.

[Daisy]

Speaking of Sarah... (I'm trying to savour the episodes - but also want to watch it so i can actually chat with you guys this season) - I wonder if she will be introduced or if it's is just the hard focus on Charles + Diana. 

[dubbel zout]

52 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Speaking of Sarah... (I'm trying to savour the episodes - but also want to watch it so i can actually chat with you guys this season) - I wonder if she will be introduced or if it's is just the hard focus on Charles + Diana. 

Same. It's complicated because of Andrew's current grossness, but their relationship was always a contrast to Charles and Diana's. And Fergie was supposed to be a breath of fresh air to the monarchy because she was so down-to-earth (relatively speaking) and "fun." Of course, that marriage also went off the rails in a spectacular fashion and was a big part of the queen's "annus horribilus" of 1992.

 

[Ambrosefolly]

I know that the Diana and Charles relationship with a disaster for the get go, but I think I remember reading a quote from Diana that while she was pregnant with Harry, the relationship actually was somewhat pleasant and they actually gotten close. It all went to shit when he found out they had another son (he was hoping for a daughter) and commented on Harry's red hair, and she knew it was pretty much over. It was disconcerting to see them constantly miserable in The Crown and with Charles always yelling at Diana, so personally, I wouldn't have minded have a bit of a reprieve in the show featuring a lead up to Harry's birth. Making him less obsessed with Camilla for a while and Diana being as hopeful as she was when Charles started courting her, (I heard she was healthier during her second pregnancy) only for it all to shatter during an event that usually brings couples together. 

[swanpride]

The tabloids do this "pitting females against each other" all the time...first it was Diana vs Anne, with the former naturally being the "beautiful" one. Than it was Diana vs Sarah, with Sarah being sold as the more down to earth one. Then the tables turned and Sarah basically became the "Duchess of Pork" while Diana was turned into some sort of angle, and then it was naturally Diana vs Camilla. Frankly, I have no idea how the tabloids survived the time between Diana dying and William getting married. Well, I guess they had their "William vs Harry" angle, (with William being the responsible and Harry being the irresponsible one), but they clearly prefer to pit females against each other. Happened again with Cate and Megan, though in this case there was a hefty dose of racism in it.

[swanpride]

Not really regarding the royals but because it is basically Gossip I'll put it here: The whole "lost son at a rally" thing didn't have much of a suspense to me because I remembered that in the Thatcher movie, it is mentioned that her son is living in South-Africa (while the daughter is still there to take care of it). The relationship with her daughter is shown to be pretty much like in the TV show, but the implication regarding the son is more than he doesn't care about her because she was away too often while her children were young. But after looking up Marc Thatcher, I am more inclined to believe the "self-entitled brat" version of the story. This guy...wow. Used the advantage of his mother's name at every opportunity, lot's of questionable dealing in South Africa while she was still in office (and she was accused of making decisions to favour his business multiple times) and as if that isn't enough already, he was also convicted and given a four-year suspended prison sentence and a fine in South Africa for funding the 2004 Equatorial Guinea coup d'état attempt. He is banned from entering the US, banned from living in multiple countries including Switzerland, and a lot of people feel that he should get stripped of the titles he inherited from his parents.

 

Yeah, I can completely see the notion that this guy got indulged too much as a child.

 

And the ralley...talk about being stupid. Not enough experience, driving the wrong car and barely able to admit that it was his fault.

[ruby24]

18 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I know that the Diana and Charles relationship with a disaster for the get go, but I think I remember reading a quote from Diana that while she was pregnant with Harry, the relationship actually was somewhat pleasant and they actually gotten close. It all went to shit when he found out they had another son (he was hoping for a daughter) and commented on Harry's red hair, and she knew it was pretty much over. It was disconcerting to see them constantly miserable in The Crown and with Charles always yelling at Diana, so personally, I wouldn't have minded have a bit of a reprieve in the show featuring a lead up to Harry's birth. Making him less obsessed with Camilla for a while and Diana being as hopeful as she was when Charles started courting her, (I heard she was healthier during her second pregnancy) only for it all to shatter during an event that usually brings couples together. 

I agree with this. I think they should have shown that the two had some time where they had bonded as a couple, because it's almost hard to believe they even slept together with this version we were shown with him never once expressing any kind of affection or even attraction towards her at any point. I'm not sure I believe that, I mean, he was just negligent and indifferent towards her from day one? They did have two kids, so there must have been something going on in the first couple years.

I've also seen pictures of them together in the Bahamas in 1982 when she's pregnant with William and they look pretty affectionate, so...I don't know, I just think there was probably some attempt at being a real couple in the early days at least. Even the way Diana talked about him later, where she's going on about the affair but still says stuff like how she still loves him...well how could she ever love him if he was never anything but a stranger who treated her like shit from Day 1? Even a teenager couldn't fall in love with someone who was never even nice to her...I think they left out the positive stuff. Most relationships that end badly start out with something good in them.

[poeticlicensed]

I remember when Charles and Diana got married and it was headlines forever in all the tabloids. And I especially remember when the marriage imploded and it was the battle of the rags to cover it (remember pre-Internet). Camilla vs Diana, Charles vs Diana, HRH vs Diana, HRH vs Camilla, ad nauseum. Those were the golden days that the tabs would love to be able to capture again with William and Kate, Megan and Harry. But its nothing compared to Charles and Diana. Honestly I think that sometimes they, or their reps drop info to keep them in the news.  I know both Charles and Diana used the media frenzy against each other. It was crazy. I remember that gross story when someone released a tape with Charles telling Camilla he wanted to be her tampon. Eek, gross stuff.

[swanpride]

Frankly, I think if Diana had lived longer, her perfect image would have been destroyed over time by the tabloid press. But since she died young and tragically, she is still throwing her shadow on the royals.

[MaggieG]

After watching episode 2 with the Balmoral tests they gave to both Margaret Thatcher and Diana, I couldn't help but wonder if Meghan received the same type of welcome the first time she went to Balmoral. 

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

After watching episode 2 with the Balmoral tests they gave to both Margaret Thatcher and Diana, I couldn't help but wonder if Meghan received the same type of welcome the first time she went to Balmoral. 

Harry loves Meghan and would have prepared her for Balmoral, or appointed someone on his staff to prepare her.  

[MaggieG]

3 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Harry loves Meghan and would have prepared her for Balmoral, or appointed someone on his staff to prepare her.  

Well yes, of course he would have. And Meghan isn't as young as Diana was, she had been married before and was a working actress. She wasn't some starry eyed babe like Diana. I'm sure she could handle whatever was thrown at her. I was just wondering even with being prepared, what sort of treatment she got. 

[AZChristian]

Recent articles the past few days indicate that a WHOLE lot of people (from Buckingham Palace on down) are outraged that Harry is still sticking with Netflix after the recent release of season 4 of "The Crown."  Between portraying Charles as an asshole and actually showing Diana jamming her fingers down her throat as a bulemic, there is an outcry that he is enriching himself at the expense of his family.  An insider said Prince William “is none too pleased with” the show’s depiction of Diana and Charles’ relationship.

They added: “He feels that both his parents are being exploited and being presented in a false, simplistic way to make money.”

I've felt this way all along, even before season 4.  YMMV.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, AZChristian said:

Recent articles the past few days indicate that a WHOLE lot of people (from Buckingham Palace on down) are outraged that Harry is still sticking with Netflix after the recent release of season 4 of "The Crown."  Between portraying Charles as an asshole and actually showing Diana jamming her fingers down her throat as a bulemic, there is an outcry that he is enriching himself at the expense of his family.  An insider said Prince William “is none too pleased with” the show’s depiction of Diana and Charles’ relationship.

They added: “He feels that both his parents are being exploited and being presented in a false, simplistic way to make money.”

I've felt this way all along, even before season 4.  YMMV.

Have any particular links?

Tabloids are also very good at making up "what William thinks" and they seem to especially adore exploiting the supposed rivalry between Diana's boys.

So yeah, while interesting?  I doubt they are any more accurate than the show they are complaining about.

Also, I seriously hope that the whining, constantly on the show, isn't also taking place in real life as they are reporting, because if it is?  The snake just ate its tail in proving the show accurate.

[AZChristian]

Just now, Umbelina said:

Have any particular links?

Google:  Lots of articles and links here.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, AZChristian said:

Google:  Lots of articles and links here.

Yes, just wondering which ones you were particularly referring to.  

 

[AZChristian]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, just wondering which ones you were particularly referring to.  

 

Haven't read them all, but found this one covered a lot of bases.

[Umbelina]

12 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

Haven't read them all, but found this one covered a lot of bases.

My first reaction to that one (I have a few more cued up to read) is damn, bashing Harry endlessly sure makes money for these assholes.

[AZChristian]

Just now, Umbelina said:

My first reaction to that one (I have a few more cued up to read) is damn, bashing Harry endlessly sure makes money for these assholes.

Good point, but that would not be a familial relationship that they were exploiting for personal gain.

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

My first reaction to that one (I have a few more cued up to read) is damn, bashing Harry endlessly sure makes money for these assholes.

Same.  And no matter who Harry does business with, the tabloids will find a royal insider affronted about it.  

[ruby24]

How exactly would William know what went on between his parents though? 

I've often wondered what the boys thought of all that, since so much of it played out in public. Has Charles ever insisted to his sons that he did love their mother at any point? They certainly know about his endless affair with Camilla. To marry the woman he spent his entire marriage to their mother cheating with is something else- I could not have ever forgiven that if I was them.

But is that how Charles explains royal marriages to them, that it's okay to have a mistress and it doesn't have to affect your marriage if the wife understands it (like what goes on with Kate and William, apparently?) 

I really do wonder about all that.

[dubbel zout]

21 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

To marry the woman he spent his entire marriage to their mother cheating with is something else- I could not have ever forgiven that if I was them.

The boys seem to value their father's happiness and are able publicly, at least, to be cordial to Camilla.

[Umbelina]

Do you guys remember the Anthony Blunt character in either of the versions for screen of Brideshead Revisited?  

I read this entire thing in his voices:  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/16/the-crown-fake-history-news-tv-series-royal-family-artistic-licence

Both times I couldn't tell if he was being sarcastic about saying all of this stuff, or actually simply amused, but offended as well.  

Pure hysteria.

[Growsonwalls]

59 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

How exactly would William know what went on between his parents though? 

I've often wondered what the boys thought of all that, since so much of it played out in public. Has Charles ever insisted to his sons that he did love their mother at any point? They certainly know about his endless affair with Camilla. To marry the woman he spent his entire marriage to their mother cheating with is something else- I could not have ever forgiven that if I was them.

But is that how Charles explains royal marriages to them, that it's okay to have a mistress and it doesn't have to affect your marriage if the wife understands it (like what goes on with Kate and William, apparently?) 

I really do wonder about all that.

I mentioned this in another thread, but royal family relations are probably skewed from birth because:

1) Being part of your family is your full-time, non-negotiable job from the moment you're born or you marry into the family

2) And therefore, your family is also your colleagues and (in some cases) your supervisors

In real life, we all need time away from our jobs. There have to be boundaries otherwise your work becomes your life and that leads to burnout. Not saying the BRF don't love each other but that they might have a very different view of family and relationships. 

I think the BRF give each other "space" from their jobs ... as long as they're all discreet about it. When you decide to blow it up in the tabloids is when it's officially war. Diana had a bunch of boyfriends during her marriage to Charles, and a Pakistani doctor that she was seriously in love with. Her celebrity and media influence was just something beyond what the royal family had ever experienced. In the old days the Queen might have bought a family cottage for Camila/Charles and a family cottage for Diana, told them they had to make the occasional public appearance together, and let that be. But with the media circus around Diana (and her own tendency to go to the presses with her story) made that impossible. 

[Ambrosefolly]

15 hours ago, ruby24 said:

How exactly would William know what went on between his parents though? 

I've often wondered what the boys thought of all that, since so much of it played out in public. Has Charles ever insisted to his sons that he did love their mother at any point? They certainly know about his endless affair with Camilla. To marry the woman he spent his entire marriage to their mother cheating with is something else- I could not have ever forgiven that if I was them.

But is that how Charles explains royal marriages to them, that it's okay to have a mistress and it doesn't have to affect your marriage if the wife understands it (like what goes on with Kate and William, apparently?) 

I really do wonder about all that.

In hindsight, I think William realizes that both Charles and Diana were pretty messed up people who really should not have gotten married, especially as quickly and in the case of Diana, as young. He even said in his engagement interview with Kate that the reason he waited so long to get engaged to her because wanted her to be in a good place and have enough time to back out. I hope Charles isn't stupid enough to think that he can convince William and Harry he was in love with Diana, but I do hope that in private he told that he was grateful that Diana was such a loving mother to both of them and regrets a lot of the mistakes in their marriage. 

In a weird way William's caution seemed to have lead to his current rift with Harry, because I heard when he discussed with Harry getting so serious so quickly with Meghan, he had a bit of Charles' foot in mouth moment and referred to her as "that girl." I think he was worried that a short courtship wouldn't give Meghan enough time to get her footing, especially since she is an American. Judging by his Uncle Edward and his own marriage, longer courtships seem to be the best way to acclimated into the Royal Family, especially with someone who is considered a commoner, so the speed of the relationship worried him.

In the case of Camilla, I don't think I have heard of Camilla discussing anything public about Diana since her death, and it seems she knows her place not only with in the royal family but with William and Harry. Charles waited a good 10 years to marry her in a low key civil ceremony and she could go by the Princess of Wales, but doesn't. Considering how she handled herself in the backlash in the wake of Diana, I think William and Harry have come to terms with her. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Ambrosefolly

[swanpride]

Frankly, I don't think that it would have mattered how long Harry and Meghan waited. It wouldn't have changed anything about the racism she faced, or the fact that she is at the end of the day a reasonably successful actress who certainly wants to play more than one role in life. We don't even know if they discussed possible venues to break out of the royal family business before the Marriage. I mean, Harry isn't stupid. His brother has multiple children, who eventually will also have children, and with every birth he himself moves further in the back or the line. At the same time it is kind of questionable if the monarchy will actually survive Elizabeth dying. People, even those who want to get rid of the royals, respect her too much to make a move now. Only five years ago my bet would have been that Williams popularity would be enough to hold the UK, but not the commonwealth states, which all seem to be itching for independence. And now there is a real possibility that the UK won't survive that long either. Getting out of the country and setting up an alternative future might be the smartest move now. And who knows if all the reports about the supposed unhappiness of Harry are even true. There is no substance to them at all.

 

[Ambrosefolly]

Everyone keeps talking about this incredibly racism Meghan faced, but aside from an article calling her exotic and some trolls on twitter, I don't see how her treatment was somehow worse than Charles, Camilla or even Kate (they called her Waitey Katey and made fun of her lack of career). I heard it said that Meghan was given death threats because she is black(but everyone has to be trained in how to escape a kidnapping, so everyone is prepared have their life threaten at anytime), but I have seen twitter exchanges calling for the murder of William and his children in order for Archie to be the next King because some of the British public want the monarch to have African heritage. As some have posted elsewhere, if Harry really didn't want to be a working royal, he could have stepped down before he married Meghan and had his wedding at the scale of Princess Eugiene or Prince Edward, without jeopardizing his or his children place in the line of succession, but then he nor Meghan wouldn't have their Duke and Duchess titles that they are have monetized. 

[Umbelina]

Do you guys remember the Anthony Blunt character in either of the versions for screen of Brideshead Revisited?  

I read this entire thing in his voices:  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/16/the-crown-fake-history-news-tv-series-royal-family-artistic-licence

Both times I couldn't tell if he was being sarcastic about saying all of this stuff, or actually simply amused, but offended as well.  

Pure hysteria.

9 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Everyone keeps talking about this incredibly racism Meghan faced, but aside from an article calling her exotic and some trolls on twitter, I don't see how her treatment was somehow worse than Charles, Camilla or even Kate (they called her Waitey Katey and made fun of her lack of career).

I barely pay any attention to the Royals, and even I have seen many, many racist comments, threats, and innuendo about Meghan.  It's been sickening, and I applaud Harry for putting his foot down, and then, when not receiving adequate support, removing his wife and child from horrors similar to those that made his mother miserable, and led to her death.

I do remember the "Waity Katie" stuff, and though the phrase could have been annoying, in no way was she threatened or attacked because of her race.  To me, they are not comparable.  She did out-wait William, who came and went from her life for years until he finally married her, and even then?  It took some clever doing on her part, which frankly, I admired, for her spunk and determination if nothing else.

 

ETA

Finally watched THE IRON LADY.  I found it quite sad.  I googled for more information (since I had no idea, didn't pay attention to her alzheimer dx at all) and found several articles criticizing her daughter for spilling personal (embarrassing?) details about her mother's condition.  

After watching their relationship in season 4, I couldn't help but wonder if she finally got her revenge?  Anyone know more?

Edited November 18, 2020 by Umbelina

[swanpride]

Plus, not every bit of racism is obvious...you can just compare how the pregnancies of Kate and Meghan were covered. You had basically the same picture of one of them having the hand on their baby bump, but in Kate the title was something along the line how tenderly she was stroking it, at in Meghan's case it was suddenly "why is she touching it all the time". They were positively vicious to her. I don't even read those kind of tabloid (though currently I see more of them than usual due to going shopping for my mother), but even I noticed how vicious the reporting are.

I didn't even like Meghan Markle (quite unfairly, because who I actually didn't like was her character in suits and not really her, and yes I know that this is idiotic), but they basically slaughtered her. And yes, you can accuse her and Harry of wanting the title for their own means, but it is also likely that they tried and figured out pretty fast that this wouldn't work. You just can't constantly stick someone into an abusive relationship. Not that the press has stopped reporting about her, but at least she now can do public appearances on her terms.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, swanpride said:

Frankly, I don't think that it would have mattered how long Harry and Meghan waited. 

I disagree. Meghan married Harry believing that they would "change the world" which was a totally wrong concept about the role of the Royal family who can never utter their own opinions, however good and progressive they were. 

Also, although Harry no doubt told Meghan about the media and how it influenced on her mother, nothing could really have prepared her what it would like. Not only racism that was real enough, but Meghan got also bad publicity because her family (except with her mother who was always dignified).

In itself, William's advice to "go slowly" was sensible, although it's well-known that it's useless to give such advice to a person who only gets angry towards the speaker.  

Plus, William didn't understand that what had been good to him and Kate, was impossible for Harry and Meghan even for practical reasons: she couldn't and wouldn't put her acting career onto the shelf for years waiting if he would propose or not, and if they wanted children, they have to act swiftly.           

 

[Ohiopirate02]

8 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

In hindsight, I think William realizes that both Charles and Diana were pretty messed up people who really should not have gotten married, especially as quickly and in the case of Diana, as young. He even said in his engagement interview with Kate that the reason he waited so long to get engaged to her because wanted her to be in a good place and have enough time to back out. I hope Charles isn't stupid enough to think that he can convince William and Harry he was in love with Diana, but I do hope that in private he told that he was grateful that Diana was such a loving mother to both of them and regrets a lot of the mistakes in their marriage. 

In a weird way William's caution seemed to have lead to his current rift with Harry, because I heard when he discussed with Harry getting so serious so quickly with Meghan, he had a bit of Charles' foot in mouth moment and referred to her as "that girl." I think he was worried that a short courtship wouldn't give Meghan enough time to get her footing, especially since she is an American. Judging by his Uncle Edward and his own marriage, longer courtships seem to be the best way to acclimated into the Royal Family, especially with someone who is considered a commoner, so the speed of the relationship worried him.

In the case of Camilla, I don't think I have heard of Camilla discussing anything public about Diana since her death, and it seems she knows her place not only with in the royal family but with William and Harry. Charles waited a good 10 years to marry her in a low key civil ceremony and she go by the Princess of Wales. Considering how she handled herself in the backlash in the quake of Diana, I think William and Harry have come to terms with her. 

MMV, but I see William as stringing Kate along until the point where he had to propose because he was ruining Kate's chances of having a life outside of him.  He wore Kate down to the point to definitely make sure she would never consider divorcing.  I get taking it slow in your 20s to make sure your partner is "the one" and William did not want to repeat the mistakes of his parents by marrying too soon, but he took forever.  William and Kate dated, broke up, and dated again for over 2 years before he proposed.  I know that during the time between breakup and proposal the family took Kate under their wing and gave her the lessons they neglected to give Diana.  Kate knew what was expected of her in her role as William's wife and future queen before walking down the aisle.  But, William's indecisiveness caused undue media scrutiny on Kate, and he knew it.   

 

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

MMV, but I see William as stringing Kate along until the point where he had to propose because he was ruining Kate's chances of having a life outside of him.  He wore Kate down to the point to definitely make sure she would never consider divorcing.  I get taking it slow in your 20s to make sure your partner is "the one" and William did not want to repeat the mistakes of his parents by marrying too soon, but he took forever.  William and Kate dated, broke up, and dated again for over 2 years before he proposed.  I know that during the time between breakup and proposal the family took Kate under their wing and gave her the lessons they neglected to give Diana.  Kate knew what was expected of her in her role as William's wife and future queen before walking down the aisle.  But, William's indecisiveness caused undue media scrutiny on Kate, and he knew it.   

 

I think he simply wasn't done sleeping around, but Kate was expert at luring him back, and she was shaping up into a great choice of wife, AND he liked his in laws.  Also, it was time, he didn't want to look or act as his father had.

(apparently he still isn't done sleeping around, if the rumors are true)

[Ohiopirate02]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think he simply wasn't done sleeping around, but Kate was expert at luring him back, and she was shaping up into a great choice of wife, AND he liked his in laws.  Also, it was time, he didn't want to look or act as his father had.

(apparently he still isn't done sleeping around, if the rumors are true)

I do believe the rumors about Wills, and wonder how often he is stepping out on his marriage.  I also do believe that is the real reason for the fallout between William and Harry.  Harry is livid that William is doing to Kate what Daddy did to Mummy.  Then you have William cautioning Harry to take things slow with Meghan like he did with Kate.  I wouldn't want to hear my adulterous  brother giving me marriage advice.  

[Growsonwalls]

Idk if the rumors are true but one thing Kate has (which Meghan and Diana did not) was a very close relationship with her own family and her own set of friends. Kate often goes back to spend time with Carole or Pippa. No William. 

I think if you look to the BRF to be warm, nurturing relatives then you're going to be bitterly disappointed. You really do need your own support system and that support system should come from outside the BRF. 

As for the tensions between William and Harry, maybe it has to do with William telling Harry to take it slow. But it might also be a natural progression -- as the Queen gets older and Charles also gets older, William's now looked to as a senior royal and heir to the throne. So William became Harry's supervisor. Charles has a pretty frosty relationship with his own siblings. The distance also happened between Elizabeth and Margaret. 

I think adjusting to the fact that your sibling is now your direct supervisor is very hard. 

[Roseanna]

3 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Idk if the rumors are true but one thing Kate has (which Meghan and Diana did not) was a very close relationship with her own family and her own set of friends. Kate often goes back to spend time with Carole or Pippa. No William. 

I think if you look to the BRF to be warm, nurturing relatives then you're going to be bitterly disappointed. You really do need your own support system and that support system should come from outside the BRF. 

You are right. And Kate's family is in the same country. Meghan's family was "baggage" (except her mother). 

Yet there have been successful Queen and Crown Princesses who have moved to the another country and learned another language (Sivia of Sweden, Mary of Denmark, Maxima of Netherlands). 

[Ohiopirate02]

12 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Idk if the rumors are true but one thing Kate has (which Meghan and Diana did not) was a very close relationship with her own family and her own set of friends. Kate often goes back to spend time with Carole or Pippa. No William. 

I think if you look to the BRF to be warm, nurturing relatives then you're going to be bitterly disappointed. You really do need your own support system and that support system should come from outside the BRF. 

 

Kate's family is a support system for her, but they also have a vested interesting in the marriage.  They want to see Kate become Queen.  

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Kate's family is a support system for her, but they also have a vested interesting in the marriage.  They want to see Kate become Queen.  

Yes, that, and so does Kate I believe.

That said, Kate had many things going for her that Diana did not.  For one thing, Wills was age appropriate for her.  For another, they lived together for quite a while, and worked out whatever kinks there were.  In addition, Kate was included in "the firms" outings and spent informal time with the Royals, and at various palaces before marriage, she knew the gig before putting on the ring.  However, the biggest advantage she had was her age, 29 years old.  She was mature enough to handle it, and on top of that, the family had learned from their mistakes with Diana.

ETA

😉  and I mean, William vs Charles?  That isn't even a contest!

Edited November 18, 2020 by Umbelina

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

she go by the Princess of Wales

No, she goes by Duchess of Cornwall. She publicly and pointedly said she didn't want to step on Diana's legacy and use that title. Camilla has been very shrewd at handling all of this. I don't mean that in a bad way. The potholes are everywhere.

[Umbelina]

Just now, dubbel zout said:

No, she goes by Duchess of Cornwall. She publicly and pointedly said she didn't want to step on Diana's legacy and use that title. Camilla has been very shrewd at handling all of this. I don't mean that in a bad way. The potholes are everywhere.

She would have been pelted with tomatoes had she taken Diana's title.

[dubbel zout]

38 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

You really do need your own support system and that support system should come from outside the BRF. 

I think that's one of the things Kate negotiated—that her family would not be ignored or forgotten once she married William. There were some ruffled feathers that the Middletons were on the boat that sailed down the Thames during the queen's Jubilee celebrations. But that was Kate making sure her family was involved in something that was a big part of her life. Carole Middleton did/does a fair amount of babysitting the grandchildren. Of course the Middletons and the Spencers were/are at different points in their lives when the marriages happened, so it's not an entirely fair comparison. But I think Kate saw the importance of having her family around her and acted accordingly.

[Ambrosefolly]

28 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

No, she goes by Duchess of Cornwall. She publicly and pointedly said she didn't want to step on Diana's legacy and use that title. Camilla has been very shrewd at handling all of this. I don't mean that in a bad way. The potholes are everywhere.

Sorry, It wasn't clear. She is actually entitled to be the Princess of Wales, but doesn't use it. I wouldn't be surprised if Charles makes it to King, she wouldn't use Queen as her title. 

[dubbel zout]

Just now, Ambrosefolly said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Charles makes it to King, she wouldn't use Queen as her title. 

Supposedly she wants to be known as Princess Consort rather than Queen Consort, but that might change when the event actually happens.